Latest / Marci talks money (and life) / How Our Circumstances, Opportunities, and Differences Can Affect Our Financial Futures with Ashley Brundage
Transcript
- Marci (00:16) Hello, I am MoneyMarci. Welcome. I am thrilled to welcome today's guest, Ashley Brundage. Ashley started her second career as a means of survival. Fighting discrimination, harassment, and homelessness, she found employment as a part-time associate and then rose to national vice president of human resources in less than five years at a major U.S. bank. She captured this career development process in her award-winning book and leadership development program, 'Empowering Differences', and now serves as president and CEO. Personally, she enjoys time with her two adult sons who serve as her main source of inspiration and empowerment. Welcome, Ashley. Ashley Brundage (01:03) I'm glad to be here. Marci (01:05) How did you get here, starting a second career? Do you wanna back up to the first career or do you just wanna start from where you were? Ashley Brundage (01:14) Well, I did work twelve years in the restaurant industry during high school and throughout that and beyond. I actually learned a lot about human resources in that space and also learned a lot about social economic class empowerment because a lot of the people who live paycheck to paycheck work in the restaurant industry and I realized that there was a lot going on in this world and that different people have different needs across all the things that make us different. And that's kind of one of the things that prompted me to want to do research about empowerment. But then working in the banking industry really sealed that deal for me and kind of seeing what was going on and realizing that wow, the world is just there are many different parts to this, and I don't know which way you want me to go next. Marci (02:10) Well, all of them because that empowerment, that wage you earn, that living paycheck to paycheck. I mean, we're talking about financial literacy here. Did you talk about money growing up? Ashley Brundage (02:22) Yes. So both my parents actually were entrepreneurs and so being raised in a house where my parents didn't work a typical nine to five, obviously they worked in their offices and such, but seeing them kind of build something from scratch, both of them. My mom worked in the auto part industry, scavenging through yards for certain parts, catalytic converters and such. It was really interesting kind of going in the truck with her and seeing how she was treated in a male-dominated society. And that kind of actually was one of the things that really helped me in my career, my second career journey, in a different gender. And then seeing my dad kind of navigate and strike partnerships with major corporations, also kind of was one of the things that prompted me to be in the space where I am and now I strike partnerships with major corporations. So it's kind of like all the things that you see and then money-wise, you know, I wasn't really certain as a youth what our financial position was. It seemed like everything was fine. But then of course, you know, when parents split or households change the dynamic that that then creates a sense of wow, we don't have as much as what we had before. We have to do a little bit more resource allocation and And so I got to experience that and then as a youth I changed to go live with my dad and then that was an interesting dynamic and kind of seeing how the financial picture was way different each time. And kind of seeing all those things at once is one of those things that prompted me to say, wow, I mean my situation changed on a moment's notice. Just imagine what it's like for people when their circumstances change. And that's kind of one of the other reasons that prompted me to want to do this research. Marci (04:25) Right. In addition to your writing and your leadership development and your HR work, you do a lot with DEI and obviously have significant experience with it as a do I say openly transgender woman? Is that the Okay. Ashley Brundage (04:40) Sure. Yeah. I don't you know, subscribe to DEI per se, but because DEI really is everyone in the world. And if there's anyone that's listening and that's thinking, DEI is not for me, I really want you to immediately think, okay, well what is diversity? Because that's the first word in DEI. And so diversity is the presence of differences that make us each unique. So by definition, technically, that means eight point three or whatever it is today, billion people in the world and no two people are exactly alike. And that's kind of at the core of realizing that okay learning about people who are different is a way to sell more things to more people who are different, i.e. make more money. So holy moly, like DEI should really be something that everybody's like, I want that and I just don't get how we got to this moment where DEI is considered bad. I and actually I know how we got here to that moment, but that might be a different podcast. Marci (05:52) Probably, I wanna talk about financially why that diversity is so important to businesses and the work that you've done and the research that you've done because you've got fascinating information. We talked before this podcast and unfortunately it's an audio podcast so you can't hold up the charts in the same way. But you had some great information that is so important and should be important for small business owners trying to figure out how to build their base rather than finding a niche that makes you smaller, find the ways to give your business a bigger audience. Ashley Brundage (06:28) When I actually interviewed at PNC Bank, in my second career, one of the things I said during the interview is that I'm going to open up your organization to connecting with an entire community that you probably don't even realize that's out there. And they were like, Well what community is that? And I said, Well, there's a transgender community And they were like, wow, okay, tell me more about that. And sometimes people you know might immediately think negative resources, but I was really, you know, in my heart of hearts wanting to say, hey, well you're hiring me in a sales capacity in this financial organization. I didn't realize it was a sales position at first, but I just figured that hey, it would be helpful if I could introduce you to more people. I understand economics and I understand business model, that no matter what position you work, whether you work in human resources or you work in a sales team, your job is to help make the company more revenue so that that way they can appease the shareholders and ultimately. Ultimately, your boss, and then anyone else that can question what your existence is and why you get paid to work here is helpful. And that's what I tried to do. And so I moved actually, I got hired as a part-time bank teller, and then I was a banker, and then I was a business banker, and then I got series 7, series 66, and I was a registered investment advisor in the banking industry. And all of those things were happening. The reason I kept moving up was because I was networking with people who were different. And then I was taking those different people and introducing them to the key players in the bank industry, whether that be I met a grocery store owner and then you know a couple months later the merchant services was doing the merchant services for the grocery. And so all of that was through diversity outreach and building relationships through my network, but also through differing organizations. Like I started joining so many different organizations that had a different outreach to the community. I was a member of the Hispanic Bar Association. And people were like, why are you here? And I was like, well, I was a member of the LGBT bar association, and I'm not a lawyer, but I'm a service provider because lawyers need bank accounts. They were like, okay, that sounds smart. Then I said, Yeah, exactly. Go to this place where you're not expected to go. And then all of a sudden, build a relationship, and then you can ask for the business. And that's what I was doing. And then I started teaching other people how to do this at the bank. And then that's when they said, hey, well, what have you been doing in Florida? And why are you able to execute these kinds of sales numbers and growth numbers? And I said, Well, that's because I've been doing this partnership with diversity. And they were like, tell me more about that. And if you can make more money for more people, that should have been the framework for DEI at the beginning. Yes, we want to solve systemic issues that exist. For people, especially in the financial space. But we can't get there if we don't get everyone else on board with it. And I think that that might be the biggest barrier that exists for DEI in this space in the current construct. Marci (10:04) Maybe we have to change the words for it and how about diversity builds business or diversity makes money or Ashley Brundage (10:13) Right. Well this is why I call it empowerment, right? Because 'cause there isn't anyone on the planet that doesn't want more empowerment. I look at my revenue share when I sell my products on Amazon and I get my answer. They want more empowerment. So it it's not a shocker and that's kinda how the world works, everyone wants more. You know, costs go up over time. Inflation goes up over time. This is not anything new that people should be like, that's not been happening. Marci (10:48) Tell us about your research on the social economic class differences and maybe conclusions or thoughts you have of how we can bridge some of those differences. Ashley Brundage (10:59) Yeah, so I've actually over the last three and a half years, I have actually escalated my survey research around empowerment and the differences and social economic class empowerment is consistently rated one of the lowest of all the ten differences. And really quick, right? So abilities and attributes, age, social economic class, education, ethnicity, gender, language, race, religion, and sexuality, those are the things that make us all different as humans, but social economic class being the one that actually statistically showcases the lowest level of empowerment. And so if you're listening and you're wondering what is empowerment, Ashley, you decide what is empowerment to you. But usually my research shows that it has to do with something that you're emotionally tied to that thing. For me, empowerment is my kids, and empowerment is being able to make a decision about my own life. It's empowerment, it's decision making, it's the ability to exist, the ability to generate revenue, all of those things are kind of connected to empowerment for me, but also like love and compassion and trust and being validated in my existence and all those things are also connected to what is empowerment. So each person kind of has that own difference of what they feel empowerment is, and I think that it's very important that we recognize it because if we can't recognize it, then we also can't metric to it. Because too oftentimes, and this is where DEI got in trouble, DEI is usually seen as a feel-good, and feel goods don't have money in the budget line long-term. Feel goods end up being the first thing that's cut when someone says, Hey, costs are going up, we gotta figure out how to save some money. And that's where we get in trouble in that space. So I think it's really important that when you think about social economic class being one of the differences that we have, you have to manage to that, but you also have to track how people emotionally feel connected about it, and then that gives you the ability to kind of build educational programming to support that. And one of the things that we do as a company is we actually help teach people about how to make resource allocation and strategic investments in themselves, right? Around their time and their treasure or their talent, right? What are they doing to grow their name in the community? That's a way of investing in your social economic class future. What are you doing to build your business plan for the future? That's a way to invest in your social economic class future. What are you doing to position that you're not paying someone else's rent? That's a way to invest in your social economic class future. So kind of that's some of the things that you can do to kind of get ahead in just that one space. But know that all the differences are still interconnected. If you don't have the confidence to exist in this space and you're constantly doubting your existence, this also can affect it. Marci (14:11) And then you also did retirement research related to that social economic class issues. Ashley Brundage (14:19) Yeah, well, obviously that's the intersectionality. And so for those that don't know what intersectionality is, this is where multiple things about your differences come at a meeting point. And so obviously your social economic class and your financial picture of your existence, right? How much money do you have? How much money did your parents have? How much money did they leave you? What are you spending in a month? Right, all those things, but then also your age is another one of the differences you have, and how many years left you have to earn, right? So then that's the intersection between those two differences. And so my research on age empowerment obviously it greatly affects you based on if you're older, you have a shorter runway, and so then that's where the real intersection comes into play is if someone doesn't have as many years left to earn, so they have to be more accelerated, and this kind of goes into the same premise of anyone who's managing someone's investments long term, they're gonna be doing that same kind of resource allocation for years left to earn. Marci (15:26) Okay. And I guess let's to something you have personal experience which is the trans or trans women if it's different for women than for men. Financial issues or workplace issues they may have and ideas, suggestions on both sides. Ashley Brundage (15:42) yes. Yeah, there is my goodness. So yeah, so I obviously had a chance to work in my first career in one gender and then I was navigating homelessness and overcoming obstacles before my second career after transitioning. And the experience was way different in that case. Being a transgender woman, there's obviously some financial components around gender transition and I hold the stick for a majority, if not all, of that. There are some medical expenses, there's over the counter hormones, all those things have an inherent cost. but the differences between transgender men and transgender women, well, so besides society, because that's a whole other thing, because most people when you hear a trans if you tell somebody who doesn't really know anyone that's trans or doesn't think they know anyone that's trans, and you tell them you say you'd start talking about transgender men, they're gonna be thinking about me, ironically, and they don't even realize that transgender men exist, which is someone who is assigned female at birth and transitions to male, which statistically is more common because there are 51% of the people who are born female in the world as a breakdown. So then that would mean that there are more transgender men than transgender women. But financially, resources, it's a much harder medical transition for transgender men than it is for transgender women because there are more medical complications to transitioning in that way. But there are some advantages for social, right? Society, the society driven advantages can sometimes outweigh that the negative ramifications financially around having more costs and more medical issues. So you know just kind of back to that whole parameter of the all the things that make you different some of those things can cost you more, right? You're more older than your costs go up, your insurance is higher. You know, so all the things that make you different this is all diversity. We hear diversity, and most people immediately think race, gender, and then maybe ethnicity. But they don't really think about all the other things, right? They don't think about social economic class, they don't think about age, they don't think about their weight, is diversity, their height is diversity, is it something that's different? So, I don't Marci (18:26) Right. Ashley Brundage (18:26) know. That's just me. Marci (18:29) Well, right, and women earn less for the same job than a man does. So Right, that's not me making it up. That's statistics, that's Ashley Brundage (18:35) And that's based on statistics, so it's not just based on it's yeah. Marci (18:41) that's research. Since you did different jobs as a man and then as a woman, I guess you wouldn't necessarily see, I went back to the same job and now they're paying me less 'cause I'm a woman. Ashley Brundage (18:52) No, but I did notice how I was treated in the workplace and when I was told Ashley you're being too loud and Ashley you're being too vocal and Ashley you need to tone it down a notch. I never got told to tone it down a notch in a manager meeting or a team meeting before. And so being told to tone it down a notch or lower your volume or no don't speak up as much is an immediate way to not be seen by your boss as much. Which is also an immediate way to not get paid as much. It doesn't take too many steps to get to that point around visibility and awareness and being seen and being heard are ways to get yourself out there more often. But you did bring up the pay disparity differences for men versus women. Well, transgender women get paid 60 cents on the dollar, which is a really bad scenario, and that's just compared to their LGBTQ counterparts. ~ So even being compared potentially to cisgender people it could be even lower. I haven't done that research but the sixty cents on a dollar is pretty dramatic. Marci (20:04) Yeah, that's significant and especially when you're in a lower earning profession, then that makes a bigger difference. Ashley Brundage (20:11) Mm. Yeah, well and I would say the transgender people come in all shapes, sizes and knowledge levels and Marci (20:16) Absolutely. Ashley Brundage (20:17) job functions. It's ironic actually. I probably spend one to two months a year in Asia and in Thailand specifically 'cause I have family that live there. And when I'm there I see transgender people at every business establishment working and surviving in society and no one's laughing at them or no one's, you know, calling them out and say, come on over here. come and check out the circus freak. That's kind of what has been ingrained in society over the last seven or eight years around kind of just making transgender the number one issue that people should have an opinion on. But that doesn't exist outside of America to that degree. So I think it's really important to understand that there are many cultures that greatly accept the transgender community and just know that we're people and we contribute and I have friends that are doctors I have trans friends that are rocket scientists I have trans friends that have worked in the White House and beyond in Congress right so I mean that there's a person right that could be trans and you don't even know it and honestly in many cases. Not every single trans person is a, you ~ know, trans people are not monolith. Not every single one is going to do a transgender 101 for your team or your friends. That may make a lot of people feel uncomfortable. I'm a professional educator by trade, so I help people learn about things all the time. So I mean, that's a little bit different for me, but for everyone else, it's you know, maybe not their jam. Marci (21:56) yeah, and when I said that I wasn't saying that if someone is transgender they're in a lower career. I was just saying for those who are in a lower career, when you're in a lower paying career and you're making even less, then it's a significant issue as well. If someone earning a hundred percent on the dollar can't make it on a paycheck to paycheck job, imagine someone who's earning less for the same work. Obviously. Ashley Brundage (22:21) Yeah. a hundred percent. Marci (22:22) And in the bigger numbers, it's a bigger number discrepancy and that's significant and a problem as well. If you're doing the job you should get paid for the job no matter what body you're in. Ashley Brundage (22:34) True, very true. Marci (22:36) I can't even imagine. Obviously I I've been a woman all my life, so I am aware of what it feels like to be a woman in the workplace and in the various workplaces and with various clients that I've had. But I can't say what it would be like to be a man in there. I can say from my vantage point what it looks like men were treated compared to how it looks like I was treated, how it felt like I was treated. But I can't see in the in their body you know, from their eyes what it looks like and if they saw the way I felt I was I was treated differently. We're missing out. Society as a whole misses out when they don't empower more of someone was hiding when I was getting ready for the podcast so she couldn't get locked up. Ashley Brundage (23:24) And for those listening, the cat just moved across the screen. Marci (23:29) We've had a Mo sighting which has been known to happen. We can't see and we can't know what it's like. It wasn't that long ago that a woman couldn't get a credit card, that couldn't create their own business, Ashley Brundage (23:41) HR.5050 Marci (23:43) Right. Ashley Brundage (23:43) HR 5050. Yeah, it's one of my favorite call-outs. 1988 And some people are like, really? I actually I quizzed my mom that question from our empowerment conversation cards that we sell and said she was like Ashley, that's, that's not true. I said, Why don't you scan the QR code on the card? And she's trying to tell me I had a business back then. I said, yeah, I know you did, but really was it just you that had the business or was someone else on the business name? And then she thought about it for a second and she said, yeah, you're right. Your uncle was on the business with me. I said, Yeah, there you go. You know, we don't even realize it. Marci (24:27) Right. We don't even think about these things because, you know, if you're younger than fifty years old, you never looked at it as an adult. You weren't trying to start a business. You weren't trying to open a credit card or a bank account or whatever at the point in time where that was mm, we'll say greatly not encouraged, without a cosigner, without a male at least standing in the background, signing something and nodding his head to say it was okay. Ashley Brundage (24:59) Right, but a lot of people don't realize the financial implications of such a thing. And so women having the ability to own a company only since 1988 it can have a long term financial impact and people don't think about that. But the same is true for racial differences and the financial impact on that and systemic racism is real because of redlining and because of the inability for people of color or black people to acquire houses in certain neighborhoods. And people think that that's not an issue. But it's but the data doesn't lie. I mean I literally had a chance to look at my form on the house that my grandfather bought and he and when he b purchased it whites were allowed to buy in that neighborhood, but blacks weren't. And I literally did this as a financial exercise for my kids to teach them about systemic racism. And I said, let's look at the price medium household price value for that neighborhood versus where black people were allowed to buy. And so we looked at them and so they were one was like my the one that my grandfather bought was like 50, 60 K, and where the black community was like 40K or 45k. And I'm like, okay, that's not that big of a difference. I mean, 50, 60 years ago, yeah, it was probably a lot more of a difference, but still, not that big of a difference. And then the today value for those same two properties, well, one's 250,000 for the black community, and the other one's worth a million. So, I mean, for people to realize that that's not the same kind of generational wealth household building future. That's a way different future. And when you put actual numbers to it, people cannot argue their way out of that based on a political leaning. Now I think it's really important that people look at the actual numbers and then make a decision on whether racism is real or whether there are disadvantages for women in the workplace. Look at the numbers. Marci (27:08) Those add up to generational wealth. Just like we say in investing for retirement, that dollar you put away when you're twenty is worth way more than the dollar you put away when you're forty because of the compounding and the income Ashley Brundage (27:21) Okay. Marci (27:22) and the growth that comes from that money. That's the same thing with generational wealth. When you miss those earlier generations because you are a woman led household, because you are a minority, because you are in a situation where you are not earning the full value of your dollars' worth of work. Those add up especially over generations and over time. I think we've probably already covered this in the conversation, but even so this is my question this season is what is wealth to you? Ashley Brundage (27:54) For me, I mean this maybe it's cheesy, but well for me is just having the love and support of the people closest to me. My two kids, Bryce and Blake and you know, had I not had them, then in my life at all, then I wouldn't be here today and the monetary stuff will come. I mean I'm kind of one of those people that I have like footholds you know where have you know the revenue generating things in so many different places so that that way I you know I'm not I'm not in one realm. I'm not just the diversity speaker or the diversity person, da da da. Because obviously as we can see, that can take a downturn. So I think it diversification is also important, maybe not as much as love and compassion, having a driving force, I guess is probably the answer that I'm giving in this question. Marci (28:55) Okay. And Ashley, before we wrap up, do you have anything else you'd like to mention that maybe we haven't covered? Ashley Brundage (29:04) wow. Wow, that's dangerous. You just giving me an open question, oh boy. Marci (29:09) Here's the microphone. Go for it. Ashley Brundage (29:12) yeah, well, I mean obviously like finances are so important to people and everyday issues. I just you know I challenge people, you know, not being political, but being apolitical. I think finances should be apolitical. It should be something that you navigate and make a decision. You should be making decisions on pocketbook issues, not on transgender rights. Like if that's your biggest issue, then you should be rethinking kind of your ranks choice strategy. There's not that many transgender people in the world. It's less than it's like half of 1% or less than 1% of the population. So don't let someone that you may or may not know, right, be the impact, right? There's not enough transgender people to take over sports and restrooms and locker rooms. It really shouldn't be the ultimate issue that it drives your pocketbook choice. I just challenge people to really holistically look at the items that are mostly financially impacting them, and it's not transgender people. We're not the villain. I mean, get to know someone. I think that if you if you put a face to it and you get to meet someone and you have a conversation with them, you'll realize that it it's not I'm not really trying to you know to make anyone else's life harder. I made the decision to transition and yes, I might have made my life harder, though I really statistically I may have made it harder, but I needed to. I wouldn't have a life. So it was really that important. And I and I just want people to really understand that because and oftentimes it gets lost in the whole you know, issues. We're so issue focused here in America. And I just want people to kind of broaden that scope a little bit. Marci (31:07) That makes sense. Ashley, thank you so much for being my guest today. We appreciate you taking the time to join us here. Ashley Brundage (31:15) My pleasure, thanks for having me. Marci (31:17) And to my listeners, I will be sharing a link to Ashley's information in the show notes. Please check her out. She shares a lot of interesting information. Her website is visible as opposed to this audio podcast. Ashley Brundage (31:31) Ha ha Marci (31:33) Don't forget to subscribe, leave us a review, and stay tuned. I'll see you next time. This has been MoneyMarci on Marci Talks Money (and Life). You got this.