Latest / Broken Record with Rick Rubin, Malcolm Gladwell, Bruce Headlam and Justin Richmond / Grace Cummings

Transcript

Grace Cummings · Broken Record with Rick Rubin, Malcolm Gladwell, Bruce Headlam and Justin Richmond

• 0:15
  Speaker 1: Pushkin. Grace Cummings, thank you for showing up and for
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: doing this.
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: I showed up.
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: And for agreeing to play something.
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm very honored to have you. And you said
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: you're going to play a song which is not on
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: your new album, Blood Horse, but you would have liked
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: it to have been. Yeah, I mean.
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: I think I chose this song because, yeah, I mean,
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: I've got my guitar with me. There are two songs
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: on the album that I play guitar on and I've
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: been playing them for a lot of press. And this
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: one is very much a part of the album and
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: very much a part of the making of it. I
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: wrote it when I was in Topanga. And I'm back now.
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: Topanga here in Los Angeles, where.
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: You were recording. Yes, recording with Jonathan, and it just
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: reminds me of that time. And it's not on the album,
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: but it's not going anywhere, you know what I mean?
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: Oh, great, great. What's it called?
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: It's called Judy's Pool. All right, shall I go?
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: You shall.
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: I just want to.
• 1:55
  Speaker 3: Swim in Judy's pool Be the exception to her rules.
• 2:09
  Speaker 4: I don't wanna.
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: Be a hot.
• 2:11
  Speaker 3: Girl It's not the mark I want on.
• 2:20
  Speaker 5: The world.
• 2:24
  Speaker 3: I just wanna leave something behind That took the trouble
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: right from my mind I'm a fucking joke, it's true
• 2:53
  Speaker 3: But I just want to be a joke for you
• 3:01
  Speaker 3: The way that some people live their lives That weren't
• 3:09
  Speaker 3: even given the chance to try Judy was a rebel
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: once She said, let him love the fucking cunts And
• 3:30
  Speaker 3: even though she's a Topanga girl A voice that draws
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: from another world I think I'm going straight to hell
• 4:07
  Speaker 3: Even though I've lived so well I'm the clumsier version
• 4:16
  Speaker 3: of a great success And I'm on the list.
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: As the devil's guest.
• 4:29
  Speaker 3: I just wanna swim in Judy's pool I just wanna
• 4:38
  Speaker 3: swim in.
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: Judy's pool.
• 4:44
  Speaker 3: I just wanna swim in Judy's pool I just wanna
• 4:53
  Speaker 3: swim in Judy's pool Judy, Judy, Judy.
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: That's beautiful.
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: Oh, man. When I first heard you, I still have
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: no context for you. So I'm excited to learn more.
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: But it feels to me like there's a soulfulness to
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: the way you play, the way you sing, to your
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: songs that used to exist in people like Jackson Brown
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: or Joni or... um, any number of people, right? Stephen Stills, uh,
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: I think at all California people now, but.
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: Uh, there's nothing wrong with that.
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: It's refreshing and it's, it's really soulful and it's beautiful.
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: Thank you very much.
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: What a compliment.
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Um, so what, what, what did you grow up
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: listening to?
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: What was, I mean, I grew up listening to a
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: lot of stuff. I, I, uh, I was, I am
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: lucky enough to have parents that rule and love great music.
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: But I also was the youngest of three children.
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: How young compared to?
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: Not very, but I was very much on the outside
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: and a bit of a loner. That's not true. I
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: was so much of a loner and kind of still
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: am and would rely on my imagination and music and
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: stuff like that to keep me company. And, you know,
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: that means as you grow older, people, you gravitate towards
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: other freaks and and um I remember my um like
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: my year one teacher I would have been like or
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: year two teacher I would have been like six or
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: something I was telling her because I would I would
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: stay like uh kind of in the classroom at lunchtime
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: or you know I didn't have many friends and I
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: told her that I liked this band from Australia called
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: The Vines. And at lunchtime, she secretly gave me a
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: copy of Rolling Stone and was like, I look back
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: on it now being like, that's a bit naughty, but
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: like that rules because The Vines were in there. And
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: then I just kind of started collecting things or just
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: like I don't know, listening to the radio and taping
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: what I liked. But my parents listened to a whole
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: range of stuff and a lot of traditional Irish music
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: and opera and classical music and then, you know, the classics.
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: You know, we all know what that is.
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and it just grows, like, it's something that I
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: miss now about discovering music. It's like, you know, to
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: show my age, you would, you know, read something that
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: you liked about a musician and they would reference this
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: and then you'd be able to read about them or like,
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: you know, find something on the radio. And I, and
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: I feel like that's something that I miss in culture today.
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: It's kind of like a, You get told more what
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: you like rather than being able to discover it, if
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: that makes sense.
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: You built your musical world almost brick by brick. You
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: would hear things, have no context for them, but then
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: hear an artist say they loved this person. It'd perk
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: your ears up. So then you would next... that's that
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: thing and sort of start to build the context around
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: why you like what you like and why certain things
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: sound the way they sound.
• 9:12
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: It would help you sort of build this world of music. Yeah.
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: That now, and innocently, pretty innocently, you know, whereas now
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: you just served things.
• 9:22
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: And it can be so vast as well. I think
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: that now, uh, like it's a lot easier for you
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: to be like put into a box and, and there's
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: kind of like, um, you know, people are like, what
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: is your music or what do you like or blah, blah, blah.
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: And it's like, there isn't one answer, um, that can,
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: you know what I mean? Like, like it baffles me.
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: Like sometimes when it's just like, tell me what you are.
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: It's like, Where do you fit in this world? It's
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: kind of like, well, everywhere, you know, I don't want
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: to fit into one kind of thing, if that makes sense.
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: Well, the idea, I mean, I guess that you might
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: fit into a certain scene or a certain thing, right?
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: And that sort of then pigeonholes how you must look
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: or how you must sound and present yourself. And that
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: becomes inhibiting.
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: You know?
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And I think I've struggled with that a little bit,
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: trying to, uh like people trying to fit me into
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: a scene and not knowing what that is yeah which
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: is great but yeah i don't know a lot of
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: my answers to questions of like what's your music like
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: i was like i.
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: Don't know well it's beautiful so you start there that's
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: that's you know um i don't know if you intend
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: it to be beautiful i mean how do you think
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: your music sounds to you i mean is there.
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: A I don't know. I think that, look, life does
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: not make sense. That's kind of like the number one thing.
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: It doesn't make sense. So I struggle to find words
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: to describe things coherently, as you'll probably find out in
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: this podcast. But, you know.
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: Music is a way to keep yourself company, to kind
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: of go through things that are like down in the
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: basement that you can't, you don't have words for, you
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: can't say out loud, like kind of confessions and things
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: like that. And it's, for me, I mean, whether I'm
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: by myself or in the studio with a billion tracks
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: of people playing, the important thing for me is the,
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: the feeling of it.
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: What, how you're feeling in the moment.
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: And, and what it, what it, what it feels like. Um,
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's how I would direct, um, people that,
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: that would play with me or my band. It's like,
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: you're really great at what you do. I'm not going to,
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: you know, pick it, you know, telling you how to
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: play a cello when you're the greatest at it, but I'll,
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: I'll tell you how it feels. Um, If that makes sense.
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: And that's the most important thing. So I suppose it's like,
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: what's the soul of it?
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: If that makes sense. And I don't know, on the
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: inside of the cover of Blood Horse is a painting
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: by my mum, Lisa, of a patch of sky that
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: I look at every night when I'm home in Australia. And,
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: you know, I've seen that sky, you know, in sunrises, sunsets. storms,
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: beautiful days, hot air balloons, flocks of parrots, full moons,
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: unable to see anything because of bushfire, smoke, and it
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: changes every day. And I think that's what the music
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: is like. It's what the world is like and it's
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: what my brain is like. It's all over the place
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: and that's kind of the way it should be. Well,
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: there's a way that feels.
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: Music that you didn't make, music that you're just a
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: fan of, that you listen to, is it similar for that?
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: Does it change as well?
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, music that, I mean, I like a lot of things.
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: And I like something if I believe in it. And
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: feel something. And do I believe it? You know, like
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: sometimes who's come across somebody live And you'll just be like,
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: I believe this person.
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: I believe this. And sometimes you go, I don't believe you.
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: Do you know what I mean?
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And that's kind of it. Like, it doesn't matter
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: what it is.
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: I think it's a really bullshit thing to judge music
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: on a genre or something like that. It's like, do
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: I believe it or not?
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: You know what I mean?
• 14:10
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's, I mean... That's a great barometer for
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: whether or not music is good, whether you believe it.
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: Although sometimes the best music is unbelievable, too. I mean,
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: your voice to a degree is unbelievable. In the best
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: of ways. It's like, where does that come from? Did
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: you always sing growing up? Does your family sing, perform?
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: Nobody in my family sings. It does, no, except for
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: my late nana. I wear a necklace around my neck.
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: I don't take it off. And that was my nana Eileen's.
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: When I knew her, she was very unwell. And even
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: though she wanted to say, you know, hi, Gracie, how's school, blah, blah, blah,
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: for the years that I knew her, she would only
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: ever say one phrase. And it was, I do my best.
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: And that's all I ever heard her say. But people
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: would talk about how she had the most beautiful voice,
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: singing voice and piano. And I'd never heard it. And
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: when my parents were moving out of our family home,
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: they were going through the boxes in the shed. And
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: there was a record and it wasn't on vinyl. It
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: was on, you know, that stuff that if you break it, it'll...
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: Like shellac? Like the old 78 or something. Which meant
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: that it kept and I could play it.
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: And I put that on and I heard my nana
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: sing and it was just magnificent.
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: So she had pressed a record at some point.
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. It was her singing a couple of songs
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: in Irish and some classic songs and playing the piano.
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: And it was just... Yeah, I feel like that's my
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: connection with her.
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she was like an operatic kind of soprano singer.
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: Makes sense for the Irish. I feel like that is
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: sort of how Irish songs are sung.
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, or kind of like.
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: The thing I love about Irish music or trad Irish
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: music is that kind of keening quality to the voice,
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: which is like a... kind of raw kind of animalistic
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: i mean it it's women keen at like funerals and
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: things like that yeah it's but it's that kind of
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: primal i don't know basement release of the voice it's it's.
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: Almost it's almost um uh blues ish in its way
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: like the way um similar in terms of which you
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: at least imagine it's trying, it's accomplishing. It's just like,
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: it's a wailing.
• 16:57
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah.
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: It's a, it's a wailing.
• 16:59
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: It's a, it's a cry.
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And I, yeah, it's like, I also think that like,
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: I've been asked a lot of questions about music and
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: the album and stuff like that. And I think that
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: ultimately there's kind of like two things, or at least
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: for me, it's to whatever it is, please help me
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: or thank you for helping me.
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: Those are the two categories of songs.
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: Almost, yeah. Or, you know, yeah, kind of.
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: Please or thank you.
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: To God, any people?
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: Something, yeah. It's like there's a desperate quality in everybody.
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: And I think that I believe people when I can
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: see a little bit of it.
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: And that comes with things that are joyful, too.
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah. You know what I mean? I think so. It's joyful, too. Yeah,
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: like there's a bit out of your control.
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: It's pure joy, you know.
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I think it makes sense. Did
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: you listen to Irish music before you discovered that record
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: of your grandmother? Oh, yeah. Yeah, okay. Irish music, I
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: don't know a ton. I know bits and pieces. What
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: is the... If you were to sort of explain traditional
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: Irish music to someone, I mean, what should someone listen
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: to to.
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: I grew up listening to, I don't know, a lot
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: of things. I recently recorded, which it was a bold move,
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: and I still don't know if I should have done it,
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: for War Child Australia, a rendition of My Lag and Love,
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: which is a Trout Irish song that I dedicated to
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: my nana. Um, but right now, um, they're my, my
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: favorite called the gloaming. Um, they have a fiddle player,
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: Martin Hayes, um, who I think is fantastic. And they, uh, um, yeah,
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: trad and current and, and beautiful.
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: They're, they're newer band.
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: I mean, they're, they're, they've been around, but they're playing.
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: They're playing. Yeah. Irish music is, um, it's a, it's
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: such a rich folk tradition, but it feels, and it
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: definitely Irish and then kind of Scottish, British, obviously influenced
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: greatly the American folk scene, but I just, I feel
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: like I know so little about the actual roots of
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: any of that folk music, you know, in terms of. Yeah.
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: I mean, like often they're pretty desperate cries, you know
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: but there's a, there's a, there's a kind of joy
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: in releasing those kinds of things. I mean, it just
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: feels like gutter. It's guttural, you know, it's like really
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: good country music. It's like, it sounds, you know, like
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: I'm not too into a lot of new country music,
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: but you know, like if you listen to you know
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: old violin or something it's just like that stuff is
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: you know it has this formula but you listen to
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: it it's like absolutely just like yeah heart-wrenching kind of
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: stuff you know desperate and it's also ways to um
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: I don't know, keep stories alive and mythology alive and, um, remember, uh,
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: people in history. And it's just, it, it, it's the
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: depths of, of, of stuff that we don't really like
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: to show people on the outside. Maybe.
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I'm reminded that, um, Frederick Douglas, who was an American,
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: he was an American slave and, and, um, who escaped slavery,
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: educated himself. and wrote his memoir and became like a
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: big abolitionist here in America, in the States back in
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: the 1800s. But I remember he at some point, I
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: read somewhere, he visited Ireland, happened to be right at
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: the start or a year into the famine. And he
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: said at some point in some publication when he got
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: back to the States that he hadn't heard wailing like
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: that aside from You know, when he was in slavery himself.
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: I was like, Jesus Christ.
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: Well, Sinead O'Connor says that music is made by the oppressed.
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: And that makes sense.
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: And like, you know, he talks about the famine. It's like,
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: that wasn't something that naturally happened, you know.
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: Because the English took the food. You know, like, there
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: was food.
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they're right.
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: It just wasn't for the Irish.
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: Purposely starved, right?
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: Right. For years.
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. And it's how you get, you know, it's,
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: you know, talking about slavery, it's like, it's how people
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: get by.
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: You keep yourself company. And Sinead O'Connor, music is for
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: the oppressed, you know, like.
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: You seem to soothe yourself, to help.
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, to get by.
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, it's funny. I think people think of
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: oppressed people or people going through a stroke as being,
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: you know, dour. And maybe there's a bit of that,
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: but there is a ton of just trying to time
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: a ton of trying to lift lift your spirits lift
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: other people's spirits trying and enjoy and and all of that.
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: Right yeah yeah what what else do we do what.
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: Else do we do yeah how how like yeah i
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: mean it's uh that's part of uh it's part of
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: the human experience you know so you're australia i didn't
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: know you were irish so.
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah it's just irish and a little sicilian have
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: you been to ireland You know, I have been to
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: Sicily where my family comes from in Lipari, which was
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: such a beautiful thing to do. And I have never
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: been to Ireland and I want to go so badly.
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: And every time I do a tour of Europe and
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: the UK, I'm just like, get it in there. So
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: here's the, get me in there. I might never leave
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: if I go.
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: Hopefully it can happen.
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: But I would love to and I would love to
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: do like a, a kind of, I don't know, spiritual,
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: mythological little tour.
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that'd be incredible, I'm sure. Yeah. How did you get,
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: how did your start in music come about? I first
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: heard you on an album called Refuge Cove, which was six,
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: seven years ago now. Aye, aye, aye. Would have been
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: the first, I know.
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: It doesn't feel like that long ago. But that was
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: the first thing you put out?
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it was. I mean, I didn't, I.
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: I mean, I love music. I've always loved music and I,
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: I've done it for myself mostly. Um, you know, I,
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: I started playing to other people when I was a teenager. I,
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: I was, um, I played the drums and I sang, um,
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: in a band and then I would, you know, pick
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: up the guitar at like 3am at parties and sung
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: then and then secretly kind of did it and, and
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: did it to kind of soothe myself. Um, And I
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: was an actor and still am, I still would like
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: to be just kind of taken over a bit. Um,
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: but you know, that was, that was my main thing.
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: Theater or?
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: Um, yeah, yeah. Theater. Um, and, and trained. And it
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: was kind of, yeah, that album I, I recorded with, um,
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: Jesse Williams and Leah Senior, who's a good friend of mine,
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: but she, you know, would be at those parties and
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: she's a fantastic australian she's.
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: A folk singer too right yeah yeah senior yeah.
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: Um and she was just like you have to do
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: this like stop doing this by yourself and i was
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: terrified but i'm i'm very thankful for her.
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: So she just heard you yeah.
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah um you know we would sing together and we
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: were in a choir together and you know like i
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: would sing with people but i would never have the
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: confidence to kind of sing my own things you know
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: i didn't think they were good enough or didn't fit
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: into like the um purest culture that perhaps some people
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: around me were in and stuff like that and she
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: was just like nah forget all that shit like like
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: do it and um i'm i'm very glad that she
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: did did.
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: You have that group of songs written already or.
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: I mean i've always had them i just never did
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: did anything you know um.
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: From that original album those songs.
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: So the original album and she was like oh you
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: know eric um old former member of uh king is
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: and um their record label at the time uh flightless
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: came to a show and he was like do you
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: have an album that we can release and i was
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: like yes and i didn't but i had like you
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: know like well recorded demos um And that was Refuge Co. Wow.
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: Not just the demos. Did you redo them or those
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: were the demos?
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: I mean, they were the recordings that I did with
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: Jesse and Leo at their house. And that was that.
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: Did you feel it was the start of something different now?
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: Or did you just assume it was a one-off thing
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: and you go back to acting?
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I can't do it now,
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: but there are things I regret, like having my own name.
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: Because I would never think that I would play outside
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: of the retreat front bar in Melbourne. And now I'm like,
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: I should have picked some other kind of name.
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: It's great to use your name.
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: People are like, what are you called? What's your band?
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: And I'm like, oh, my name's Grace Cummings. It just
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: feels weird.
• 26:52
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: But no, I don't, I don't, I didn't think, I mean,
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: still now I do something and I'm like, I'm never
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: going to do that again.
• 26:59
  Speaker 4: Wow.
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: I don't know how, I don't know, I'll never, you know,
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: I did Blood Horse and I was like, that's it,
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: you know. Really? But when I'm playing on stage or
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: in the studio, I've never... never ever as present as that.
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: And that could be at home too when I'm singing.
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: I'm never that present. And that's the thing that I chase.
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: It doesn't have to be in front of an audience.
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: It's lovely to have that connection. But I don't know
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: how I see myself. And when things come out and
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: you see yourself being written about or photos here or
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: something like that, I'm like, I don't know who that
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: person is almost you know it's like a portrait that's
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: made of you that you've helped make but you're like
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: I don't know if I like I relate to that
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: person in a way but it's a weird thing it's.
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: Like an avatar it's like some.
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah it's strange and then I think someone's going to
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: find me out like someone's going to bust me you
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: know soon and they're going to find out you know
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: like oh my god she's you know what I mean
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: yeah yeah yeah someone's going to figure it out sooner
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: or later.
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: Did that open up a network of people to you
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: within Australia?
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: It was really, you know, I'm good friends with the
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: Giz boys and very grateful for them as well because
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: being not known and then being put out on a
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: Gizzard label meant that there was a group of people
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: that would kind of just, listen to you no matter what.
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: There was ears and eyeballs on it instantly.
• 28:45
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: And that, and that did help. And, um, and gosh,
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: I can't even, I can't even remember. Like I, um,
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: just people popping up. I don't know. I made my
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: second record in, um, COVID, uh, Storm Queen. Um, and
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: I was touring and, uh, I heard a record, um,
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: And I thought the production on this is incredible. And
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: I hadn't thought that in a long time. Like the
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: last time I was like, this production is incredible was
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: like Wilson Pickett's Hey Jude or something, you know. And
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: I was like, who is this producer? And it was
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: Jonathan Wilson.
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: What album had you heard?
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: It was big time. It was Angel Olsen's record.
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: Amazing.
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I hadn't, I mean, I love Angel
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: and I've listened to her music. since but I didn't
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: know Angels music really very much. Um, uh, but I
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: was sent that and I, um, thought it was fantastic
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: and the songs were beautiful, but I was like the production,
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: I was like, whoa. Um, and I was really tired
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: in the tour van, um, and somehow, you know, got
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: some confidence and I thought, you know, fuck it. I'll
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: just reach out to the guy. Um, and he sent
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: me a photo back like 20 minutes later. being like,
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: I'm listening to Raglan. And he was playing in Roger
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: Waters band at the time. And he was backstage and
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: sent me a photo of the big inflatable pig. And
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: I was like, is this real? Is this happening? And
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: then I said, do you want to do a record together?
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: He said, yeah. So, and it's become one of the
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: best relationships in my life and musical relationships, you know, friendships,
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: but musical relationships, like Yeah, we get each other and
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: we're both a little nuts.
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: Yes, I can see. Jonathan Wilson, I mean, he just
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: lives and breathes it, man.
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: You can't stop him.
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: Everything he does is like of a certain, it's just,
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: it's like, I don't know, he's like the Neil Young
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: of producers or something. Everything's of just a certain quality.
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: It's just like, you know it's going to be something
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: worth listening to.
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he's incredible. And he's not, you know, like the
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: first time I ever spoke to him, he was like,
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: you know, on the phone to kind of talk about
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: what we're doing. You know, I'm not a precious person.
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: It's very much like whatever, like just have an idea
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: and it's like, let's try, you know. And the first
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: thing that he said was like, just so you know,
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: I'm not one of those producers that like sits in
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: the chair and tells everyone what to do. And I
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: was like, sick. So it's kind of like, I mean,
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: he's incredible. And on these records, he's a thousand people,
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: you know, like he's, he is outrageous. Like I've never
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: met a musician like him, but also it's very much
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: kind of like the two of us kind of running
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: around like Jack Russell's getting really, really excited by music.
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: And you know what I mean? Like, it's just like, it's,
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: it's playtime and it's, it's just the best thing ever. And,
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: you know, you can say whatever you want and he'll
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: be like, hell yeah, let's go.
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: I'm like, all right, you know? I mean, the last
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: two albums especially, I mean, are just so sonically rich.
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: I mean, and it's so, the world you have created
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: in both of them are insane. And it's such a contradiction,
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: or such not, excuse me, it's such a, compared to
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: the first one, you know, it's, which is so sparse.
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: There is a, there's a, it's like, wow. Did you
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: always hear your music sounding the way that it does now? Or?
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: I think so. I think that's the way that I
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: hear the world. Like, it's very grand music. it's dramatic. Um,
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: you know, people kind of like say, Oh, you've trained
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: in theater. Like there's a drama in there and blah, blah, blah.
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: And I'm, I kind of like, yes, I, I, that
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: is true, but the world is full of, it's a melodrama,
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: you know? Um, I mean, you play a bit part in, in,
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: in nature's great epic. Um, but that's what it is,
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: you know? Um, and that's how it feels to me. Um, And, yeah,
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: going back to, like, what a song is or what's
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: important about it is the feeling and it's the primal
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: kind of feeling. So it always does kind of sound
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: like that in my head or feel like that in
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: my head, whether it's sung with just a guitar or
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: with a fucking orchestra. It's just if the feeling is there. Yeah.
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: It's grand.
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: You know what I mean?
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah. There's always a grandness implied. Yeah. No matter how
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: you're playing the songs.
• 33:42
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: I mean, like, what's it for otherwise?
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: I think luckily for you, like, just there's a grandness
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: and a drama to your... your voice and the way,
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: the way you, so to your earlier point, it's like,
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: whether it's just you and a guitar or, or whether
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: you actually do fill it out with these like incredible orchestrations,
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: it's an arrangements, it's going to sound great. You know,
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: you don't, I don't think you have to do too
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: much to get there, you know?
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, like I know I have a big,
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: a big voice, but I like, yeah, I, it's a,
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: it's a, yeah, it's a release. It's the biggest release
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: that I could have in my life. I'm very grateful
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: that I have a connection to my voice because it's
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: sometimes my only source of comfort.
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 34:37
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: It's a bit somber.
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: No.
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: No.
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: But, I mean, it's true. That's the truth.
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: But it's a source of joy, too.
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. You can tell you're having fun making the album.
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: I'm having a lot of fun.
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Where does Blood Horse come from?
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: Blood Horse, it took me a while to name the record.
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I can't remember. It just popped into
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: my head when I was on the phone to Jonathan
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: talking about something, like one of our rambling conversations. talking
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: about something I mean like technically a blood horse is
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: like a purebred a thoroughbred like racehorse like an archaic
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: term for that but it's also kind of I feel
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: like blood horse or like that song in particular brings
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: me back to like if we were talking about me
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: like people are like are you the blood horse and
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: I'm like sometimes like I feel like I like when
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: I go to sleep, for instance, I feel like I'm
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: not really resting. I'm just like waiting in the stalls,
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: you know, and then I open my eyes and you
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: just fucking run, you know, if it's to something away
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: from something or whatever. Um, and, um, but it also,
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: it's like a, it, it, it's a, it's a big word.
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: It has an exclamation mark on it. Um, it's a,
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: it's kind of, mythological ish you know it's a grand
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: kind of um image as well yeah.
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah does does that that feeling of being in a
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: in a stall just waiting to be sort of released
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: or unleashed maybe it was has that is that has
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: that intensified um now that you're you know making albums
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: and you're on the road and you're promoting i mean
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: does that Does being in or a part of a
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: music industry make you feel even more? Does it intensify
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: that feeling?
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: Let me think a little bit about that. Yeah, it
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: does intensify it a little bit. I mean, you know,
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: it's a hard industry to be in. But, you know,
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: I've done it to myself, I suppose. But I'm getting
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: better at being in music. the industry. I think quitting
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: drinking helped me get a lot better at that. That
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: helped my life in general. And I don't know, in
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: the last little while and whilst making Blood Horse, I
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: have kind of grown to become a little bit more myself.
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: And it's the person that, you know, my family has
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: said to me and I recognize it in myself. It's
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: like what I was like, you know, more when I
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: was a child, you know.
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: I'm sober now.
• 37:46
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: Or just, yeah, like figuring out who I am or
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: kind of like getting rid of a little layer of
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: care that's like, you know what, what can you offer
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: the world that it doesn't already have is you. Um,
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: and sometimes a lot of the time you don't like
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: that or you struggle with that, but, um, that's all
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: you've got. And, um, I've learned that, you know, making music,
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: I used to think, you know, oh, if I say this,
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: or if I say that it's so selfish, it's all
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: about you. Like who gives a shit? It's not true
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: because you're not, you're not that unique. Um, so I,
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: I think I learned there was a song on Ramona
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: called a precious thing. And it was kind of like
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: the most raw, um, kind of upfront, um, song on
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: that record. And I learned from, um, people's, the way
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: that people, um, spoke to me about it and how it,
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: they related to it or how it made them feel
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: held or something like that. It's like, it's not all
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: about you. Um, It's about giving that bit that's hard
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: to think about to others, if that makes sense.
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: If you feel something, someone else definitely does too.
• 39:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: Back to we're not that unique. Most of our... very
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: personal traumas can be very relatable.
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: Totally, totally.
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: You know, someone has gone through something similar or feels
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: something similar.
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's taken a lot of, it's taken a
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: lot of courage, you know, like I've always kind of
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: not been very comfortable with myself, but I thought, well,
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: if you've got the opportunity, just have a little courage
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: and be yourself. Maybe you love yourself or maybe someone
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: else will feel a little more loved or understood or something,
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: you know. And little Gracie would be, Proud of you.
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 40:00
  Speaker 4: Wow.
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: You maybe lost the line of connection between who you
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: were as a kid as you became an adult. You
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: feel you're back to that person now.
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: I'm coming back to that person and I am comfortable
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: as that person. And I know a little bit more
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: about who's looking back at me in the mirror. And
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: there was a very long time where I had no idea,
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: you know, because I... think that I, you know, whether
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: consciously or subconsciously, like would adopt the, the, the, the
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: opinions of others or the, or the likes and the,
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: and the wants of others or the, what success meant or, or,
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: or things like that to please people or to not
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: get in trouble or to, uh, you know, get by
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: or not feel ashamed or, or judged or, or something
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: like that. Um, And I just think that's exhausting. And
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: it's kind of freeing to.
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: I.
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: Don't know, you're talking about stills? Oh, it's Crosby, actually.
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: Let your freak flag fly.
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Crosby, yeah. I'll let you free. I almost
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: cut my hair.
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: You almost cut my hair. Yeah, yeah, but like.
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: The idea of conforming, but then realizing there's not a
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: ton of.
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: You might think by conforming you're endearing yourself to people
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: or you're creating a community, but you're really just alienating
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: yourself more than you are.
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: Connecting to others. And then I wouldn't believe myself. How
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: could someone watch me and believe me when I don't
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: believe myself? Not to say that other music that I've
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: made is not real, but I think there's just a
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: little step forward that I've made that I would love
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: to continue to do. which is to kind of go
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: further into that. Yeah, because I don't want to regret anything.
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: I don't want to regret anything.
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: It makes the album cover make more sense as well.
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: Not that it... I mean, it was a great cover,
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: but just the doll. But, I mean.
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: As an allusion to sort of rediscovering oneself.
• 42:21
  Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah.
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: It's the first record that doesn't have my own face
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: on it, but it kind of feels like my own.
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: More you than maybe some of the other covers. The
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: cover for Ramona is amazing, too.
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: Glamorous, I should say. That is kind of more fake
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: than the doll. I was wearing a wig. I wasn't
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: well at the time. I.
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: You know, you can't tell because it's taken a little
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: further away. But other photos, I was wearing different colored eyes.
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: I didn't want to be myself. And it was called Ramona,
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: you know. So that's interesting to me.
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: Like as inhibiting a different person?
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: Not that I was doing it like consciously like a
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: Bowie kind of thing. But I just, I did it
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: and I look back on it and I'm like, that's
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: actually so funny because that's not. And I don't know,
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: I'm still kind of questioning why I did that.
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: Might that be the thespian side of you? You know,
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: where you want to take on a character?
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: No, I think that was the fearful side. Yeah. And
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: the Ramona side, I suppose. Like, that's kind of what
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: I fell back on. Like the image that other people have.
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: Might want you to be.
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: You felt that's what people wanted you to be.
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: It was just sort of glamorous.
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. Green-eyed kind of.
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: Siren.
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: Quiet girl, you know. Yeah. Yeah.
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: That's interesting. I'm reading Kim Gordon's book right now, which
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: I'm late to because that came out a while back.
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: I'm late to everything, don't worry.
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: I'm halfway through now. And she's like, you know, it's
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: in the early nineties run, like when goo comes out
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: and she has, she's talking about similar things. I mean,
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: she just doesn't, she's like trying to find her like
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: who I've been trying to be cool this whole time.
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: And that means by being cool, that means I'm trying
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: to really be a drogenous or relate to the boys,
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: you know? And, but also maybe I want to be
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: glamorous or cute or whatever, or, or, and what is
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: and then if I play into that and then it
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: becomes this convoluted it was becoming a convoluted sort of
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: debate in her mind for her of like which one
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: is giving a win to someone else versus just being
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: who I am yeah.
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah that's right that's right and none of them need
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: to make that much sense I mean do it if
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: you want and you know like again life doesn't make
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: sense you don't have to be like you're not a
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: written character but you have to like Play out the
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: bits for, you know.
• 44:53
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: I mean, I could walk outside and get hit by
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: a bus. I would like to kind of, I mean,
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: I don't want to, but I'd like to do my life,
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: live my life so that if I do get hit
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: by that bus, I'll feel like I did the best
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: I could.
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: I do my best.
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Do you want to play something else from? From
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: your album?
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: You know what? I would bloody love to.
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: Great. So happy to hear that.
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: Joke.
• 45:46
  Speaker 5: I saw you sing with Paul today And a tear
• 45:52
  Speaker 5: rolled down my mother's face.
• 45:57
  Speaker 3: I wish I still had childhood grace.
• 46:04
  Speaker 5: And that everybody had a good time John, the war
• 46:16
  Speaker 5: still isn't over Even.
• 46:21
  Speaker 3: Though we want it gone.
• 46:26
  Speaker 5: But we've still got the Rolling Stones They're just in
• 46:33
  Speaker 5: need of a roll and rhythm.
• 46:42
  Speaker 3: John, John, Lennon, Lennon. John, John, Lennon, Lennon. John, John, Lennon, Lennon. John, John, Lennon, Lennon.
• 46:53
  Speaker 5: John, John, Lennon, Lennon.
• 46:56
  Speaker 3: John, John, Lennon, Lennon.
• 47:18
  Speaker 5: John can you hold me like a baby.
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: Cause I don't want to be alone riding on my own.
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: Waking up.
• 47:40
  Speaker 3: <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL>.
• 47:47
  Speaker 4: <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL>.
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: <HAL> Broken Record is produced and edited by Leah Rose
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: with marketing help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: engineer is Ben Talladay. Broken Record is a production of
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries. If you love this show and others from Pushkin,
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: subscription that offers bonus content and ad-free listening for $ 4. 99
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple Podcast Subscriptions.
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: And if you like this show, please remember to share, rate,
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: and review us on your podcast app. Our theme music's
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: by Kenny Beats. I'm Justin Richman.