Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #488 Resilience by Rote - Should Resilience be Taught in Schools?

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#488 Resilience by Rote - Should Resilience be Taught in Schools? · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast.
• 0:05
  Speaker 2: It's the podcast for.
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: The time poor parent who just once answers.
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: Now resilient people are flexible, they find pathways, they identify
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: alternative options.
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mum
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: and dad.
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: Hello. This is doctor Justin Coulson, the founder of Happy
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: Families dot com dot au and the author of a
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: bunch of books about making your family happy. I'm here
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: with Kylie. This is Happy Families. Holidays are over, the
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  Speaker 2: school's back. Are you like tired or something after the
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  Speaker 2: school holidays?
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  Speaker 1: I mean, I know you saying that the school holidays
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  Speaker 1: are over. Well, well they are for Queenslanders, but I
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  Speaker 1: don't actually feel like I've had a holidays.
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  Speaker 2: The kids had the holiday, not you, not me.
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  Speaker 1: Well yeah, and we're in the middle of packing up house.
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  Speaker 2: Oh. For those who have been following along since the
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  Speaker 2: start of the year, it's been the world's longest saga.
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  Speaker 2: We have some news. We sold a house and and
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: we brought a house. So finally, finally, I mean, we're
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  Speaker 2: not there yet. We're still This week we move out
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  Speaker 2: of our old house completely. You remain on the coast
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: in another airbnb, because how many times have we moved
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  Speaker 2: in the last three months, and over the next couple
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  Speaker 2: of weeks we'll be in and out of a couple
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  Speaker 2: more airbnbs, and finally late May we move into our
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  Speaker 2: very own new home near the coast. And I hope
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  Speaker 2: it'll all have been worth it, because it's been like
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  Speaker 2: five months of moving. Saga.
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  Speaker 1: Well, they say that a change is as good as
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  Speaker 1: a vacation. I'm a little bit nervous about this change
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  Speaker 1: because we're going from a very large space into a
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  Speaker 1: very small space. We're having a complete sea change in
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  Speaker 1: every sense of the word.
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  Speaker 2: So for anyone who's sort of been watching the housing
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  Speaker 2: market lately, you will know that coastal areas are kind
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  Speaker 2: of expensive. So we've been living in a really big
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  Speaker 2: house that the reality is we couldn't believe how much
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  Speaker 2: house you can buy in the southern suburbs of Brisbane,
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  Speaker 2: and so we're moving out of a six bedroom, four
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  Speaker 2: bathroom house. I mean it was it's been a massive
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  Speaker 2: house to live in into a three bedroom, two bathroom house,
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  Speaker 2: Like we're literally half the size and we still have
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  Speaker 2: five at home and we've got two shipping containers full
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  Speaker 2: of stuff that we're going to have.
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  Speaker 1: To and you're going to work from home as well.
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  Speaker 2: At our school. That's right, the kids one of those bedroom.
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  Speaker 2: The kids are actually going to all sleep in the
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  Speaker 2: rumpus room because I need one of the bedrooms for
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  Speaker 2: an office because I don't even have an office there.
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  Speaker 1: So keep an air out for I'll do better tomorrow's
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  Speaker 1: because I am sure we're going to have some wouses
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  Speaker 1: as the months go on.
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  Speaker 2: Man, and I guess to tidy up the end of
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: this conversation, we have spent our school holidays packing up
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  Speaker 2: and cleaning up and tidying up. I'm saying goodbye. I'm saying, yeah,
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  Speaker 2: well that's been really nice. That's true. So anyway, today Kylie,
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  Speaker 2: we have a conversation that's important that we filled everyone
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: in on where we're up to. And I don't know
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  Speaker 2: how the podcast, by the way, is going to manage
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: through the next few weeks, but we will make it happen.
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  Speaker 2: We're going to make it happen. But a really important
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  Speaker 2: conversation to kick off term two.
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  Speaker 1: You know, parents have had a really tough time over
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  Speaker 1: the last few years. You think about the pandemic and
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  Speaker 1: all of the things that have happened there with in iso,
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  Speaker 1: the vaccination dilemma and you know, not being able to
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  Speaker 1: get get food.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's been coss living lately, like it's huge, lazy, expensive, And.
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  Speaker 1: Then you think about, you know, kind of I guess
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  Speaker 1: some of the challenges that countries are broad are experiencing
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  Speaker 1: with war at the moment and the tumultuous way that
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  Speaker 1: has affected us, even here in Australia, it's had such
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  Speaker 1: a huge impact and just our sense of well being
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  Speaker 1: and peace, yeah, has been affected. Oh gosh, don't talk
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  Speaker 1: about the floods and families all around the country and
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  Speaker 1: obviously throughout the world are experiencing these and it seems
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  Speaker 1: like it's just we can't kind of get a break, yeah, yep.
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  Speaker 2: And so there's been calls. In fact, the O Chilren's
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  Speaker 2: Research Institute recently published a study where clinicians, psychologists, people
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  Speaker 2: who work in mental health fields are calling for resilience
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  Speaker 2: training in schools to help prevent mental health disorders because
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  Speaker 2: we're seeing an increase in anxiety, we're seeing an increase
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  Speaker 2: in depression, we're seeing an increase in mental health issues
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  Speaker 2: and decreased resilience in our kids.
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  Speaker 1: So surely, well, I would suggest that it's across the board.
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  Speaker 1: We're not just talking about kids who are dealing with this.
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  Speaker 1: I would assume that adults are dealing with anxiety and
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  Speaker 1: depression just at an alarming rate.
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  Speaker 2: The world is it has to impact our kids, right,
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  Speaker 2: and our lives are more challenging. So yeah, of course
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  Speaker 2: it's affecting all of us. But when we're not well,
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  Speaker 2: it certainly affects them. And so people are saying, let's
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  Speaker 2: get resilience training happening in schools, and that's what we
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  Speaker 2: want to talk about today.
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  Speaker 1: Well, I'm really curious is this actually a teacher's job,
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  Speaker 1: Like should this stop be taught in schools?
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  Speaker 2: I want to answer that in a fairly sort of
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  Speaker 2: nuanced way. We've got research evidence that can guide our
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  Speaker 2: instruction here, that can guide our conversation. Your first question
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  Speaker 2: was should teachers be responsible for teaching resilience in schools?
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  Speaker 2: So teachers already teach a number of ours. They teach writing, reading,
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  Speaker 2: and arithmetic. Should we add resilience to it? I don't
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  Speaker 2: actually think so. And there's a couple of reasons. Number One,
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  Speaker 2: teachers aren't trained to teach this stuff like well being, psychology,
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  Speaker 2: mental health. These are not specifically things that teachers are
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  Speaker 2: trained to teach in and they do require a certain
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  Speaker 2: level of expertise and expert knowledge, and I just think
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  Speaker 2: that that's asking. Oh, teachers already do so much and
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  Speaker 2: so many things have been crammed into the curriculum. And
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  Speaker 2: that's probably not a very popular thing for me to
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  Speaker 2: be saying, because most people think that we do need
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  Speaker 2: to be teaching resilience at schools. I don't think that's
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  Speaker 2: the reality. I think what needs to be taught in
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  Speaker 2: the home. So that's the first thing. The second thing
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  Speaker 2: is that some of the world's best researchers have tried
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  Speaker 2: to get resilience programmed running in schools. The very best
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  Speaker 2: known one was put together by a guy called Martin Seligman.
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  Speaker 2: He is the founder of the positive psychology movement over
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  Speaker 2: the last twenty years, which has swept the world by storm,
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  Speaker 2: and he put together a program called the Penn Resiliency
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  Speaker 2: Project the PERP. We've got schools here in Australia like
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  Speaker 2: Knox Grammar in Sydney and Geelong Grammar in obviously in
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  Speaker 2: Geelong who have literally spent millions of dollars implementing well
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  Speaker 2: being and what the research seems to be indicating is
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  Speaker 2: that it doesn't really have a huge impact. It has
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  Speaker 2: a marginal effect. There are some children that have really
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  Speaker 2: benefited from it, but many that have not. And there's
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  Speaker 2: a number of reasons for it. When you try to
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  Speaker 2: teach it in a school, you've got to have the
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  Speaker 2: entire school culture embracing it and living it. The worry
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  Speaker 2: that it can veer into toxic positivity, and everything's always
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  Speaker 2: got to be great, fine and wonderful, happy, and ultimately
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  Speaker 2: the results just don't stand up. They can't get good
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  Speaker 2: long judinal studies showing that teaching this stuff in schools
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  Speaker 2: is having a long term impact on the well being
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  Speaker 2: and the resilience of our kids. So I wish that
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  Speaker 2: I could say, yes, let's do it, and here's a solution,
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  Speaker 2: and let's roll this out, but it doesn't seem to
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  Speaker 2: actually work.
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  Speaker 1: It's interesting when you talk about the things that teachers
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  Speaker 1: generally are trained to teach, every time there seems to
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  Speaker 1: be a lack in our children's lives, it almost feels
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  Speaker 1: like teachers are the ones who get lumped with the
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  Speaker 1: responsibility of taking care of that, of feeling that need.
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  Speaker 2: It's because it's a community wide. It's a society wide issue,
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  Speaker 2: and the best way to get information to the whole
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  Speaker 2: society is run it through the curriculum because that's where
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  Speaker 2: everybody is. But it doesn't work. The research just isn't
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  Speaker 2: there to support it. There's been plenty of research done,
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  Speaker 2: and some research is positive. I'm not throwing the whole
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  Speaker 2: field out and saying this is a waste of time.
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  Speaker 2: Suggesting is that overall, over time, we're not seeing the
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  Speaker 2: kind of improvements that would justify running this stuff through
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  Speaker 2: the school curriculum. And that's cause resilience starts at home.
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  Speaker 2: After the break, we're going to talk about what we
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: can do to build our kids' resilience. Your daughter just
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: walked by, eyes glued to her phone, expression unreadable. You
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: ask her to put it down, but she balks. You
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: know it's not good for her, but you're not sure
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: why or how to support better choices. In the webinar,
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: pixel perfect I joined with psychologist and team tech expert
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: Jocelyn Brewer to discuss how to set screen boundaries that
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: work for you and your daughter. Check out pixel perfect
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: now on the Happy Families webshop.
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families Podcast, the podcast for the time,
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: poor parent who just wants answers now. Resilience. It's a catchphrase.
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  Speaker 1: We talk about it all the time, and this study
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  Speaker 1: has obviously reignited the conversation around whether or not resilience
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  Speaker 1: should actually be taught in schools. You're suggesting no. So
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  Speaker 1: if that's the case, how do we as parents who
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  Speaker 1: are tired? We're tired.
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  Speaker 2: You're saying we're not resilient ourselves. Is that what he's saying?
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  Speaker 1: No, But I am saying that the last few years
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  Speaker 1: has thrown some major curve balls, and for parents who
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: are just getting through day to day, the last few
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  Speaker 1: years have really really affected our capacity tiring.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Absolutely, And so how do we teach resilience to our kids?
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  Speaker 2: So I'm going to share three ideas here that I
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  Speaker 2: think will be helpful, and we're going to do it
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  Speaker 2: in about four minutes, so we've got to move fairly
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: quickly because time is going to run against us. The
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  Speaker 2: first one, and I was thinking about this the other
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  Speaker 2: day when I was on my bicycle. I was thinking
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: about people who are resilient. So you can be resilient
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  Speaker 2: and still have something horrible happen to you and you
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  Speaker 2: end up laying underneath the blankets and needing ice cream,
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  Speaker 2: watching Netflix and crying because sometimes life is really hard.
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  Speaker 2: Resilient people still feel all of the same emotions. We
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  Speaker 2: don't have to impose this, like I said before, toxic
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  Speaker 2: positivity on people so that they feel like they can
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  Speaker 2: be resilient. You should be allowed to have the full
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  Speaker 2: range of emotions. But resilient people are flexible. They find pathways,
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  Speaker 2: they identify alternative options. So when something happens that's not good,
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: when something happens that hammers them into the ground, when
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: something happens that's unexpected, random, volatile, difficult to deal with.
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  Speaker 2: What they do is they find a way forward or
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: they find a different way forward.
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  Speaker 1: So I had a conversation with one of our daughters
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: just the other day in relation to moving. She's been
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: so supportive of our move and has been really really
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  Speaker 1: excited about it, and there is so much about our
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: new life on the coast that she loves. But being
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: back in Brisbane and spending time with her friends has
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: left her really really sad, and she's trying, really you know.
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  Speaker 1: She tried really hard through the holidays to put a big,
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: brave face on and one day she was really cranky.
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  Speaker 1: I was like, what is going on, you know? And
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  Speaker 1: I finally I sat down with her and she just
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: burst into tears. She said, I don't want to move.
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  Speaker 1: I miss my friends. And so we were abred to
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  Speaker 1: talk about that and talk about the fact that I
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: would love for her to have grown up in the
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  Speaker 1: same family home her whole life and to have had
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: the same friends her whole life. And yet I feel
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: like our lives are richer because of all of the
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: experiences we've had and all of the different people that
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: have come into our lives as a result of our moves.
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  Speaker 1: But I also acknowledged to her that it was okay
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  Speaker 1: for her to be sad, and she could be sad
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  Speaker 1: for as long as she needed to be, and she
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: could cry, and she could come and get a hug
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  Speaker 1: from me whenever she needed it too, But as soon
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: as it went from being sad to wallowing in it,
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  Speaker 1: that that in and of itself would be detrimental to her.
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  Speaker 1: That feeling sad and acknowledging that sadness was okay, but
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: that then she needed to take opportunities. It's not about
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  Speaker 1: being that toxic positivity that you're talking about, but acknowledging
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  Speaker 1: the things that are good in her life. Finding opportunity
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  Speaker 1: is to be grateful for the beautiful friendships she has
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  Speaker 1: and the opportunity she has to continue those relationships in
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  Speaker 1: spite of the fact that she's not in them. And
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  Speaker 1: what are some of the things that she loves about
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  Speaker 1: her new life.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, adolescent girls in particular are really prone to rumination,
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  Speaker 2: which is exactly the opposite of finding pathways forward. I
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  Speaker 2: love the word that you use. It's wallowing. It's sitting
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  Speaker 2: there and saying woe is me, this isn't working, I'm unhappy,
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  Speaker 2: And instead of finding pathways or options a different way forward,
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  Speaker 2: they don't. They just sit there and stagnate. That's the
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  Speaker 2: very essence of a non resilient response. So by talking
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: with our children about being fine to be unhappy, to
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  Speaker 2: even grieve, but then saying what pathways do we have
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  Speaker 2: to get to where we want to go? Now, that
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  Speaker 2: is a resilience building conversation. The second idea that I
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: wanted to share was just the idea of being flexible,
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  Speaker 2: which kind of it's aligned with what we're talking about here,
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: but flexibility is a bit more than that. It's essentially
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  Speaker 2: saying I'm in a situation that's not ideal, a situation
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  Speaker 2: that's bringing me down. How can I adapt to this
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  Speaker 2: particular situation so that I can feel okay about being here,
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  Speaker 2: or so that I can respond to it in an
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  Speaker 2: effective way even though I'm not okay being here, because
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  Speaker 2: I am here regardless. So again, it's not about toxic
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  Speaker 2: positivity and smile your frowns away and let's make everything
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  Speaker 2: turn that frown upside down kind of thing, but rather
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: being flexible in the way we respond to a situation
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  Speaker 2: that we find challenging.
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  Speaker 1: So can you give us an example of what it
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  Speaker 1: means to be flexible? Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: I write about this in my book Nine Ways to
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  Speaker 2: a Resilient Child, and this story really strikes me as
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  Speaker 2: being a good one. There's a boy's name is Noah.
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  Speaker 2: He's about I think he's in like grade ten, grade eleven,
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  Speaker 2: and he's at a school sports carnival day and they're
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: doing do you remember those games like tunnel ball and
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: captain Ball. So they've got a full age range from
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  Speaker 2: grade seven through to grade twelve playing this game, and
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  Speaker 2: they're doing tunnel ball and one of the grade seven
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  Speaker 2: kids completely fumbles the ball loses the ball, it goes
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  Speaker 2: off completely the wrong way and they're going to lose.
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  Speaker 2: About ten or twelve seconds while his grade seven boy
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  Speaker 2: runs to pick up the ball that he's fumbled and
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: throw it back so that it can be done again.
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  Speaker 2: And as this happens, a grade nine boy starts to
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  Speaker 2: rip into this kid. Oh man, I can't believe you
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  Speaker 2: just did that. You're so clumsy, calling him names while
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: he's chasing after the ball. But this grade eleven boy,
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  Speaker 2: Noah or grade ten boy or whatever he was, he
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  Speaker 2: calls out to this grade nine boy and says, hey,
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  Speaker 2: it's just a game. It's not going to change the
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: world whether we win or lose. Just be nice. He's
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: only in grade seven. And so what's happened here is
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: Noah wants to win, just like every other boy in
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: that competition, but he knows what his values are, he
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: knows what matters most. He's got his priorities in order,
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  Speaker 2: and he's able to be flexible around his end goal
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: based on what's happening in the context. He knows that
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  Speaker 2: it's more important to be kind, that value matters more
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  Speaker 2: than the value of winning. And so when the year
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  Speaker 2: nine boy starts yelling at the year seven, boy Noah
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  Speaker 2: steps in and says, hey, you know what, in terms
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  Speaker 2: of priority, being kind mat as much more than winning.
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  Speaker 2: Don't give the kid a hard time. Let's just work
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  Speaker 2: together as a team. From here, we'll do the best
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  Speaker 2: we can. That's what it is to be flexible. You've
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: got a goal, but even if you're not going to
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: hit your goal, you remember what your values are and
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  Speaker 2: you change your goal based on your values and based
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: on the circumstances. Now, that's a really resilient mindset.
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  Speaker 1: So in a parental context, as parents, we want obedience, right,
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  Speaker 1: we want our kids to do what we've asked them
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  Speaker 1: to do.
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  Speaker 2: A lot of parents do.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, But at the end of the day, what we
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: want more, or I hope we want more, is to
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: have a good, solid, strong relationship with our kids. And
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: sometimes that means letting go of that obedience model to
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: have the relationship.
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  Speaker 2: That's a really nice idea. Yeah, that works really really well.
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  Speaker 2: Third idea, to build our kids' resilience. And we'll have
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: to do this one fairly quickly because we're kind of
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: out of time. It's just giving them something to hope for,
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: like building hope as parents, and you've heard me say
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  Speaker 2: this before. We are hope builders. We cannot expect teachers
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  Speaker 2: to be responsible for helping kids to discover new pathways
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  Speaker 2: to everything in life, be flexible and have something to
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  Speaker 2: hope for. As parents, this is our job. This is
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  Speaker 2: how we build our kids' resilience. What are your kids
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  Speaker 2: hoping for? What are they looking forward to? How are
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: they going to get there? How can they be flexible
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  Speaker 2: in their approaches? How can they adapt or change their
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: goals based on their values as things do or don't
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  Speaker 2: measure up. If they can do these sorts of things,
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: they're going to be resilient and they're going to be
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: just fine. Like if we go back highly to the
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: initial list of challenges and difficulties that the world is
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: facing and that families are facing, that our children are facing,
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: that we're facing, the one thing that stands out to
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: me more than anything is that adversity doesn't discriminate. We
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: all have hard times. But if we can have options
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: and teach our kids that there are always options, there's
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: always another way forward, they can be flexible. Maybe what
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: they're moving towards actually isn't what they need to, but
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: perhaps there's a different goal. And if we can help
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: them build hope they're going to be resilient.
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: I love it.
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer. If you
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: like what we had to talk about, I ran a
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: webinar last night that you might really love. It's called
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: the Toolbox for Tremendously Tough and Terrible Times or something
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: like that. It's in that Happy Family's webshop right now,
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: and I reckon you might really enjoy it. There's a
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: list of ten things that you can do to keep
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: your cool when times are tough, and a list of
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: ten things that you can do to help your kids
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: keep their cool when times are tough. It's a really
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: great webinar. We had a great conversation about it last night,
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: and it might just help if resilience is on the
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: wane in your home. Please check it out at the
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: Happy Family's webshop. You can find all the info at
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: happyfamilies dot com, dot a