Latest / PNW Haunts & Homicides / He Never Made It to the Funeral: The Murder of George Cecil David

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He Never Made It to the Funeral: The Murder of George Cecil David · PNW Haunts & Homicides

0:01
Speaker 1: At the time, there was, and thankfully now continues to be,
0:05
Speaker 1: growing awareness across the United States and Canada regarding systemic
0:10
Speaker 1: issues affecting indigenous communities, particularly when tribal members go missing.
0:17
Speaker 1: These included jurisdictional complexities, underreporting, lack of coordinated investigative resources,
0:25
Speaker 1: and historical mistrust between Indigenous communities and law enforcement. Many
0:30
Speaker 1: large and interconnected Indigenous populations have been particularly affected by
0:36
Speaker 1: these challenges. Hi, Cassie, Hi, Caitlin, Hi, creepy people. Helloo,
0:46
Speaker 1: This is PNW Hants and Homicides where we chat about
0:49
Speaker 1: true crime, the paranormal, and all things spooky in the
0:54
Speaker 1: Pacific Northwest or the pnw if uniety. Hmmm. We also
1:03
Speaker 1: do a little tarot reading at the end of every
1:05
Speaker 1: episode for a little bit of deeper insight into our topic,
1:09
Speaker 1: which just reminds me to grab the cards. Oh yeah,
1:13
Speaker 1: get them prepped, Get them Cassie, how would you feel
1:17
Speaker 1: about taking a little road trip. I love road trips.
1:22
Speaker 1: I know, actually we took one not too long ago,
1:27
Speaker 1: kind of a short one, you know, as.
1:30
Speaker 2: Long as we can stop and see like tourist traps.
1:34
Speaker 2: Oh my favorite thing, of course. Yeah, got to make
1:38
Speaker 2: that part of it will. Driving from Nia Bay to
1:42
Speaker 2: Port Angeles takes roughly ninety minutes to two hours, depending
1:47
Speaker 2: on the road conditions and traffic day to day. The
1:51
Speaker 2: drive along the Strait of Wanda Fuca National Scenic Byway
1:56
Speaker 2: or Highway one twelve offers stunning views of Washington State's coastline.
2:03
Speaker 2: If it's a leisure trip you're after, the area is
2:06
Speaker 2: rich with beautiful natural scenery and opportunities for outdoor activities
2:11
Speaker 2: like kayaking, fishing, and will watching abound.
2:16
Speaker 1: Oh Wales and I. Although I will say I didn't
2:22
Speaker 1: put this in my notes, but the official tourism website
2:26
Speaker 1: does mention that if you're participating in any sort of
2:30
Speaker 1: water sport or related activity, they generally advise that you
2:37
Speaker 1: either have like a professional paid guide, or that you
2:41
Speaker 1: be someone who's like very very confident and like highly
2:45
Speaker 1: skilled in set activities. Because the water the conditions can
2:50
Speaker 1: change very quickly. It's a it's a particular spot where
2:56
Speaker 1: if the weather changes, you can find yourself in a
2:59
Speaker 1: real kind of dicey situation quickly.
3:03
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, that makes sense. I definitely won't be on
3:06
Speaker 2: the water with a professional or not. I will be
3:10
Speaker 2: well watching from the land.
3:13
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, can't help but feel like that might not
3:17
Speaker 1: be the most advantageous spot. But you do use some minaculars,
3:23
Speaker 1: will be fine. Yeah, but not every trip lends itself
3:29
Speaker 1: to leisure or leisure. Unfortunately, this trip, while it's for
3:38
Speaker 1: a far more somber occasion, a funeral in fact, well shit,
3:44
Speaker 1: and what's sadder than attending a funeral maybe never making
3:49
Speaker 1: it there at all. No. George Cecil David boarded a
3:56
Speaker 1: bus from Mia Bay to Port Angelus on March twenty fifth,
4:00
Speaker 1: with plans to travel on to Vancouver Island to visit
4:03
Speaker 1: family and attend a funeral on March thirtieth. George born
4:09
Speaker 1: in port Alberny in August of nineteen fifty was a
4:14
Speaker 1: member of the UK What First Nations in BC. And
4:21
Speaker 1: I'm I've listened to the pronunciation guide so many times.
4:25
Speaker 1: It's actually painful because I feel like every time I
4:28
Speaker 1: listen to it, I pick up a different nuance. There's
4:32
Speaker 1: like a slight difference in intonation. I'm just doing my
4:37
Speaker 1: bast Those are great, yeah, okay, great, awesome. Yeah. I'm
4:44
Speaker 1: saving some of the pronunciation guides that I used in
4:49
Speaker 1: my sources this week so that people if they're curious,
4:54
Speaker 1: they can go back and find the you know, the
4:56
Speaker 1: source that I used. And some of them are totally
5:00
Speaker 1: unrelated to the case itself, but definitely seem like they're on.
5:06
Speaker 1: Like one of them is a YouTube video and it's
5:08
Speaker 1: an interview and it sounds like there might be some
5:10
Speaker 1: really cool information in it. I didn't make it past
5:13
Speaker 1: like the first minute where the person that's being interviewed
5:17
Speaker 1: says the name of the tribal affiliation approximately ten times
5:22
Speaker 1: and under a minute, and I was like, this is dynamite.
5:25
Speaker 1: That's exactly what I'm looking for. Yeah. So back to George.
5:32
Speaker 1: Those that knew him well said he was always upbeat,
5:36
Speaker 1: truly passionate about his creative work, and a mentor to
5:40
Speaker 1: many children in his community. He was a highly regarded
5:44
Speaker 1: artist and master carver. His works are displayed all over
5:50
Speaker 1: the world, from the Pacific Northwest to Norway, like in
5:54
Speaker 1: a royal collection in Norway and Kobe, Japan. That's pretty cool,
6:03
Speaker 1: very cool. He had even crafted to thirty six foot
6:08
Speaker 1: canoes for Chief Siach. Again tried real hard off the pronunciation.
6:15
Speaker 1: I'm not nailing it. I know this. It was Chief
6:20
Speaker 1: Siach's gravesite so he's known as the Chief of Seattle
6:26
Speaker 1: or Chief Seattle in Suquamish, and that one I did
6:31
Speaker 1: nail so nice, ten out of ten stuck the landing.
6:37
Speaker 1: His work reflected generations of Indigenous storytelling traditions. He did
6:42
Speaker 1: a lot of totem poles, which is obviously such a like.
6:47
Speaker 1: It's such an iconic style and medium for Indigenous art,
6:55
Speaker 1: and his presence within the artistic and cultural community extended
6:59
Speaker 1: beyond orders, well beyond any state or country. It's so
7:05
Speaker 1: much more than that. On March twenty eighth, twenty sixteen,
7:10
Speaker 1: George was found dead in an apartment in Port Angelus, Washington.
7:15
Speaker 1: The circumstances surrounding his death quickly raised concerns, but the
7:19
Speaker 1: investigation initially struggled to produce clear answers. At the time,
7:25
Speaker 1: there was, and thankfully now continues to be, growing awareness
7:30
Speaker 1: across the United States and Canada regarding systemic issues affecting
7:35
Speaker 1: indigenous communities, particularly when tribal members go missing. These included
7:42
Speaker 1: jurisdictional complexities, underreporting, lack of coordinated investigative resources, and historical
7:49
Speaker 1: mistrust between Indigenous communities and law enforcement. Many large and
7:55
Speaker 1: interconnected indigenous populations have been particularly affected by these challenges.
8:02
Speaker 1: George David's murder remained unsolved for years. During that time,
8:07
Speaker 1: his family, including his daughter Maria, continued to seek answers
8:12
Speaker 1: and justice. Public statements from family members emphasized not only
8:17
Speaker 1: the loss of a loved one, but the loss of
8:20
Speaker 1: cultural knowledge and artistic legacy. Reports described unfinished carvings and
8:27
Speaker 1: projects left behind, symbolizing both an interrupted life and a
8:33
Speaker 1: broader cultural impact. Man.
8:36
Speaker 2: The visual of just like unfinished artwork is so.
8:41
Speaker 1: So sad, it's really haunting. And obviously somebody who's such
8:47
Speaker 1: a prolific artist, they're going to have pieces that remain
8:52
Speaker 1: unfinished when they continue working on their passions, you know,
8:57
Speaker 1: all throughout their life. And clearly he didn't plan that,
9:02
Speaker 1: you know, this was going to be the day, the week,
9:05
Speaker 1: the month, you know, probably even the year that he
9:09
Speaker 1: was going to pass away. So I just feel like
9:12
Speaker 1: it really highlights you know, you never know when your
9:17
Speaker 1: time is going to come, and unfortunately his was far
9:21
Speaker 1: too soon, far too soon. He wasn't a young man
9:25
Speaker 1: at this point, but he was, you know, in his sixties.
9:28
Speaker 1: He potentially still had a lot of life left. Yeah,
9:32
Speaker 1: the turning point in the case came along nearly parallel
9:36
Speaker 1: to the establishment of Washington State's MMIWP, or Missing and
9:42
Speaker 1: Murdered Indigenous Women and People Cold Case Unit under the
9:47
Speaker 1: Office of the Attorney General in twenty twenty three. The
9:51
Speaker 1: unit was created specifically to address cases involving missing and
9:56
Speaker 1: murdered Indigenous people, Recognizing that traditional investigative approaches had often
10:03
Speaker 1: fallen short in these contexts. The formation of the unit
10:07
Speaker 1: marked a shift toward more culturally informed and resource focused investigations.
10:13
Speaker 1: Charges would be filed after the case was reopened in
10:17
Speaker 1: twenty twenty four. On the day of his disappearance, George
10:21
Speaker 1: had just sold an art piece and was carrying hundreds
10:24
Speaker 1: of dollars in cash. Oh No. He was staying in
10:28
Speaker 1: a furnished basement apartment below a dentist's office while in
10:32
Speaker 1: Port Angelus. This was a friend of his. George is
10:36
Speaker 1: seen on security footage arriving in Port Angelus. He also
10:40
Speaker 1: texted his daughter Maria confirming his arrival. George was reportedly
10:45
Speaker 1: seen in the company of a younger woman at various
10:48
Speaker 1: bars in the Port Angelis area before the pair was
10:52
Speaker 1: picked up by a cab. She wasn't significantly younger okay.
10:58
Speaker 1: I was struggling with a way to put that. She
11:02
Speaker 1: was a little bit younger than him, but not like
11:04
Speaker 1: not like the age of his daughter or you know, right, okay.
11:09
Speaker 1: Before arriving back at the apartment where he was staying,
11:13
Speaker 1: that woman was also seen on gas station video footage
11:18
Speaker 1: buying cigarettes. The following morning, a number of outgoing calls
11:23
Speaker 1: and texts were made from Georgia's phone. In one exchange,
11:27
Speaker 1: a person identifying themselves as Tina attempted to arrange a
11:33
Speaker 1: drug deal, then in others offered to sell a webcam
11:37
Speaker 1: and laptop. Though investigators were able to recover a significant
11:43
Speaker 1: amount of information from that activity, the device itself was
11:48
Speaker 1: never located following his disappearance, which is really interesting. I
11:53
Speaker 1: feel like usually there's a lot of information they can
11:56
Speaker 1: get from a phone, even if they don't physically have it.
11:59
Speaker 1: But it's just strange to me that they didn't ever
12:02
Speaker 1: locate the phone. Yeah, and it's not like that's it.
12:07
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that is like a dig against the
12:10
Speaker 1: investigation or anything like that. It's just sort of I
12:14
Speaker 1: guess whoever was using the phone must have dumped it,
12:17
Speaker 1: and I'm assuming it was turned off or dead, and
12:21
Speaker 1: then that makes it really hard to find it at
12:25
Speaker 1: that point. Yeah, could be in the ocean man, who knows.
12:30
Speaker 1: That same day, the woman George had spent much of
12:33
Speaker 1: the prior evening with was seen at an area Walmart,
12:37
Speaker 1: where surveillance footage showed her visiting a hair salon. When
12:42
Speaker 1: she entered, she had long hair, but opted to cut
12:46
Speaker 1: it very short, new look all of a sudden. Huh Yeah, interesting.
12:52
Speaker 1: The stylist said. The woman paid in cash, noting she
12:56
Speaker 1: had been carrying quite a bit at the time. Reportedly,
13:00
Speaker 1: the woman who she observed had scratches all over her face.
13:04
Speaker 1: According to the stylist, oh shit told her that she
13:08
Speaker 1: was preparing to turn herself over to authorities or a
13:11
Speaker 1: warrant out of Arkansas related to Carthuft. It's a weird
13:16
Speaker 1: thing to tell your hairdresser, A really weird thing. Yeah,
13:19
Speaker 1: and not as far as I can tell, maybe not
13:21
Speaker 1: even like an established like Previo, like this is your
13:26
Speaker 1: regular hairdresser. I think it kind of seems like it
13:29
Speaker 1: might have just been a random one that she went to.
13:31
Speaker 1: I'm not sure it kind of is kind of doesn't
13:34
Speaker 1: matter in any case, but jabberjaws over there. Yeah. Yeah,
13:41
Speaker 1: the store's video footage showed that same woman purchasing a
13:45
Speaker 1: pay as you go cell phone, also with cash. It
13:50
Speaker 1: was the following Monday that the dentist Georgia's friend went
13:54
Speaker 1: to the basement apartment, expecting to find it empty. Instead,
14:00
Speaker 1: he discovered George deceased, his body folded into the sofa bed,
14:07
Speaker 1: with bloodstains at the head and foot of the mattress.
14:11
Speaker 1: What the fuck? Yeah, I don't even know how that.
14:17
Speaker 1: It just doesn't seem like that should even be physically possible.
14:20
Speaker 1: But it just also feels like it just represents such
14:24
Speaker 1: like a disrespect for this person. And obviously you killed them,
14:30
Speaker 1: so I can't imagine that you have a ton of
14:32
Speaker 1: respect for them, probably, but yeah, it just feels so
14:37
Speaker 1: like senseless to me. I guess, I don't. I don't
14:42
Speaker 1: know why. Certain details like that just feel like almost
14:46
Speaker 1: more upsetting than the crime itself. Yeah, like you didn't
14:51
Speaker 1: need to do that at all.
14:52
Speaker 2: He was going to be found either way, like you're
14:55
Speaker 2: worth hiding it forever or if you're.
14:58
Speaker 1: Going to try to hide it. Poles actually tried to
15:02
Speaker 1: hide it, I guess, I don't, you know. Yeah, police
15:06
Speaker 1: believed that due to several blunt force wounds and blood
15:09
Speaker 1: that had pooled near the head of the mattress. He
15:12
Speaker 1: had been bludgeoned while lying on his back. It sort
15:16
Speaker 1: of sounds like maybe he was about to go to sleep,
15:20
Speaker 1: or maybe had already fallen asleep. They also discovered wrapping
15:25
Speaker 1: for a pipe wrench that Georgia's friend said he had
15:29
Speaker 1: previously purchased and stored in the basement utility room, but
15:33
Speaker 1: he had never used it. The dentist informed investigators that
15:37
Speaker 1: a backpack, along with a laptop and Wi Fi router
15:41
Speaker 1: were missing from the unit. Meanwhile, the mysterious woman was
15:47
Speaker 1: staying overnight with an individual she had texted from Georgia's phone.
15:53
Speaker 1: Just doesn't seem very smart to me to, like, so
15:58
Speaker 1: you're just going to lead them right to where you
15:59
Speaker 1: are are. Yeah, I mean that was kind of my
16:03
Speaker 1: same thought. Obviously, it takes some time for them to
16:08
Speaker 1: piece all of these things together, but it just is
16:12
Speaker 1: kind of like, I mean, like it's like an etch
16:16
Speaker 1: a sketch of evidence, connecting all the dots, you know,
16:20
Speaker 1: Like I mean, maybe she's innocent. I don't know, we
16:24
Speaker 1: don't know yet. Yeah, totally totally When investigators recovered items
16:31
Speaker 1: that she had left at that individual's apartment. The dentist
16:35
Speaker 1: was able to identify them, confirming they were in fact
16:39
Speaker 1: his missing items. So that that feels like it's a
16:43
Speaker 1: little bit harder to deny a connection. But yeah, seems
16:49
Speaker 1: pretty connected. Yeah. It was about a month later that
16:54
Speaker 1: George's wallet, emptied of the cash he'd been carrying, was
16:58
Speaker 1: discovered along a creek by volunteers picking up trash. Analysis
17:04
Speaker 1: of blood taken from under George's fingernails matched the woman
17:09
Speaker 1: he'd been seen with. Additionally, DNA taken from a cigarette
17:15
Speaker 1: butt found at the scene, as well as the wrapper
17:19
Speaker 1: for the pipe wrench, were a match to her as well. Wow,
17:25
Speaker 1: so it sounds like a lot of evidence here. Yeah,
17:29
Speaker 1: it does feel it seems as though it may be mounting.
17:34
Speaker 1: Weeks after George's murder, that same woman was even arrested
17:39
Speaker 1: in Mount Vernon on unrelated charges. She was shipped back
17:45
Speaker 1: to Arkansas for violation of her parole stemming from a
17:50
Speaker 1: felony theft. Wow, Okay, she gets around Yeah, Yeah, And
17:56
Speaker 1: honestly sounds like, hey, maybe she was telling that hairdress
18:01
Speaker 1: of the truth and I bet that hair was like
18:04
Speaker 1: the Stylus was probably like, oh shit, I kind of
18:07
Speaker 1: figured she was just like jabber drawing, like you've said,
18:10
Speaker 1: but what do you know. The suspect was a woman
18:16
Speaker 1: in her mid fifties named Tina Marie Alcorn. Authorities would
18:21
Speaker 1: learn that she had left the state of Washington and
18:24
Speaker 1: was located in Arkansas. She was arrested in Phillips County, Arkansas,
18:31
Speaker 1: on June third of twenty twenty five, at of all places,
18:36
Speaker 1: a women's shelter where she had apparently been working. She
18:41
Speaker 1: remained in custody Inklalham County Jail on a million dollar bail,
18:47
Speaker 1: with her trial date set in August. So August twenty
18:51
Speaker 1: twenty five, less than a year ago. Wow, yeah, wild
18:55
Speaker 1: to me. The case proceeded through the legal system, culminating
19:01
Speaker 1: in a guilty plea for second degree murder in December
19:05
Speaker 1: of twenty twenty five, ahead of her trial previously anticipated
19:09
Speaker 1: to start in March of twenty twenty six. She had
19:13
Speaker 1: a trial they thought was literally about to start a
19:15
Speaker 1: couple of weeks ago. Wow, But she pled guilty. So
19:22
Speaker 1: sentencing followed, with Alcorn receiving a prison term of just
19:27
Speaker 1: over thirteen years. Okay, just pausing for reaction to the
19:32
Speaker 1: thirteen years for murder. Yeah, I was like, is this
19:36
Speaker 1: is for murder? Yeah? Like that's literally what kind of
19:39
Speaker 1: it kind of breaks your brain a little bit. She
19:42
Speaker 1: got like, yeah, thirteen years and four months is what
19:45
Speaker 1: it works out to be. Though it may seem like
19:49
Speaker 1: a short sentence given the brutal nature of the crime.
19:52
Speaker 1: Court documents also indicate that she is not expected to
19:56
Speaker 1: survive her sentence. Oh Alkhorn's position at the Olympic Medical
20:04
Speaker 1: Center stated she is currently undergoing treatment for metastatic breast cancer,
20:10
Speaker 1: with a prognosis described as poor at best. Wow, okay, yeah,
20:17
Speaker 1: so I mean, why not just give her life? I mean,
20:20
Speaker 1: to be honest, she's probably not going to survive her sentence.
20:25
Speaker 1: They doubt that she'll actually make it through the sentence
20:30
Speaker 1: at all. Like, yeah, I know, it just seems like
20:33
Speaker 1: if you know that, I don't know, thirteen years though,
20:38
Speaker 1: it's just like a slap in the face. Well, part
20:41
Speaker 1: of the reason, and it took me a little while
20:44
Speaker 1: to kind of get down to the nuts and bolts
20:47
Speaker 1: of it, and because articles were coming out right up
20:51
Speaker 1: until like the holidays, like November December twenty twenty five,
20:57
Speaker 1: it was a little bit challenging to kind of work
21:00
Speaker 1: through what the like, what the timeline was with this.
21:04
Speaker 1: One article was mentioning the twenty twenty sixth trial, and
21:08
Speaker 1: they were mentioning that the prosecution wanted to go for
21:13
Speaker 1: a first degree murder. She ended up pleading to second degree.
21:19
Speaker 1: And so that can kind of explain obviously why this
21:23
Speaker 1: didn't go to trial in March of this year, okay,
21:26
Speaker 1: And it also probably explains why the sentencing feels a
21:30
Speaker 1: little bit lighter than what maybe some of us would
21:35
Speaker 1: consider like Okay, yeah, that's justice or if that makes sense.
21:40
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, Well, I mean they're the professionals, So I
21:44
Speaker 2: guess allegedly, whatever.
21:47
Speaker 1: Did she ever say? Why she did it? Like? Was
21:50
Speaker 1: it just for I know? That was the thing that
21:53
Speaker 1: was literally one of two notes that Chris had, like
21:57
Speaker 1: at all period, He's like, I don't unders stand, and
22:01
Speaker 1: he's like, just her money. Yeah, I mean, there's there's
22:05
Speaker 1: nothing that provides any additional insight beyond that. It's wild.
22:11
Speaker 1: While her conviction provided a measure of justice, it also
22:15
Speaker 1: highlighted the complexities and limitations inherent in prosecuting cases many
22:21
Speaker 1: years after the fact, because she would have been in
22:25
Speaker 1: her mid forties when she committed the crime. She's in
22:28
Speaker 1: her mid fifties when she's arrested, and by the time
22:32
Speaker 1: her sentence is up, she will be dead and or
22:36
Speaker 1: in her you know, mid to late sixties. Wow, I know.
22:43
Speaker 1: It's just like, oh God. And it's like the fact
22:46
Speaker 1: that it took so long. I mean, at least they
22:50
Speaker 1: got it. They got it, yeah, in the end. But
22:55
Speaker 1: that is a very long time. It's a lot. Yeah.
22:58
Speaker 1: And the part it's sad about it is that that
23:01
Speaker 1: is just not really all that unique. It's very unusual
23:05
Speaker 1: that cases get solved like, you know, quicker than that.
23:10
Speaker 1: To be honest, it's you know, it takes time. This
23:14
Speaker 1: case holds symbolic and practical significance. It demonstrates the potential
23:21
Speaker 1: effectiveness of specialized units that combine forensic advancements with culturally
23:27
Speaker 1: informed investigative practices. The broader implications of the case extend
23:33
Speaker 1: beyond a single investigation. It underscores the importance of sustained
23:39
Speaker 1: attention to cases involving indigenous victims and the need for
23:44
Speaker 1: continued investment in resources and expertise. It also highlights the
23:50
Speaker 1: role of advocacy both from families and from indigenous communities
23:55
Speaker 1: in keeping cases active and pushing for resolution. And I
24:01
Speaker 1: feel like it's just kind of shitty because I feel
24:05
Speaker 1: like it's true to some degree in almost any missing
24:09
Speaker 1: persons or any murder case. But I feel like the
24:13
Speaker 1: fact that it's like it really takes this perfect confluence
24:17
Speaker 1: of things to get answers in these cases. And we
24:22
Speaker 1: know why that is. You know, it's like the bias
24:26
Speaker 1: and the racism that's inherent in the system and in
24:31
Speaker 1: our you know, society. Media coverage of the case has
24:36
Speaker 1: emphasized different aspects of its significance. Reports from state sources
24:42
Speaker 1: have focused on the investigative process and the role of
24:46
Speaker 1: the MMIWP unit. Indigenous focused outlets have highlighted the cultural
24:53
Speaker 1: loss and the personal impact on George's family. Local journalism
24:58
Speaker 1: has provided detail accounts of the timeline, including the challenges
25:02
Speaker 1: based during the investigation. For years, George David's case remained unsolved,
25:10
Speaker 1: not because the evidence didn't exist, but because it hadn't
25:14
Speaker 1: yet yielded the answers investigators needed. When the case was
25:18
Speaker 1: reopened by a cold case unit, detectives returned to evidence
25:22
Speaker 1: collected in twenty sixteen and conducted additional forensic analysis. That
25:28
Speaker 1: renewed effort, combined with further investigative work, provided the critical
25:33
Speaker 1: link that ultimately led to an arrest. After years of silence,
25:38
Speaker 1: the evidence finally spoke. And the crazy thing and I
25:42
Speaker 1: really had to tug at this thread, was like between
25:46
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen and twenty twenty three or twenty twenty four, like,
25:51
Speaker 1: what were the advancements in like DNA or other forensic
25:56
Speaker 1: technology that made the difference. And that's just it. It
26:02
Speaker 1: wasn't that, that wasn't how we got here. It was
26:06
Speaker 1: the fact that some of that evidence they conducted additional
26:11
Speaker 1: forensic analysis. So we're talking about evidence that we've had,
26:15
Speaker 1: we've always had, and then renewed and further investigative work.
26:22
Speaker 1: So these are tools that we always had.
26:25
Speaker 2: Wow, and they just like let it go cold with
26:28
Speaker 2: all that evidence.
26:30
Speaker 1: The tough thing is is that sometimes when they can't
26:34
Speaker 1: quite gather enough evidence, this is what happens. But we
26:39
Speaker 1: know that it happens for certain populations, certain types demographics
26:47
Speaker 1: of victims more than others. And it's why this particular
26:55
Speaker 1: specialized unit is so important, Thank goodness. Yeah. The George
27:01
Speaker 1: David case also highlights the challenges that can come with
27:05
Speaker 1: investigations spanning multiple jurisdictions. George David was a Canadian indigenous
27:12
Speaker 1: man whose life extended across borders, but at the time
27:16
Speaker 1: of his death he was living in Washington, where the
27:19
Speaker 1: crime occurred. Elements of the case extended beyond a single location,
27:25
Speaker 1: requiring coordination across state lines. Differences and resources, communication and
27:31
Speaker 1: investigative priorities can complicate that process, particularly in cases that
27:36
Speaker 1: go cold. In situations like this, specialized units and renewed
27:41
Speaker 1: collaboration can play a critical role in bringing long standing
27:46
Speaker 1: investigations back into focus. So, while George was both a
27:54
Speaker 1: resident of the state of Washington and someone who was
27:58
Speaker 1: a victim of a crime in the state of Washington,
28:01
Speaker 1: his killer was arrested in a different jurisdiction. He was
28:05
Speaker 1: originally a native of Canada, so imagine that he had
28:10
Speaker 1: been a Canadian who was here short term. The complications
28:17
Speaker 1: of working with you know, multiple jurisdictions and then you know,
28:21
Speaker 1: like I said, his killer is arrested in Arkansas. That
28:25
Speaker 1: I mean, the amount of coordination and collaboration that that
28:28
Speaker 1: takes on the part of law enforcement is you know,
28:33
Speaker 1: we yeah, we can't forget about that, and historically it
28:37
Speaker 1: is not something that has happened when it's this population.
28:42
Speaker 1: And unfortunately, especially if crimes like these occur on reservation territory.
28:47
Speaker 1: We've talked about it before with Highway twenty. It's so
28:52
Speaker 1: upsetting it is. In examining the case, it is also
28:57
Speaker 1: important to consider the historical context of Indigenous relations with
29:03
Speaker 1: law enforcement. Many Indigenous communities have experienced systemic neglect and
29:09
Speaker 1: in some cases, direct harm from institutions that are supposed
29:14
Speaker 1: to provide protection. This history can affect reporting, cooperation, and trust,
29:21
Speaker 1: all of which are critical components of effective investigations. The
29:25
Speaker 1: success of the MMIWP Cold Case Unit in this case
29:30
Speaker 1: may contribute to rebuilding some of that trust, Although such
29:34
Speaker 1: efforts require sustained commitment over time. The unit's focus on
29:39
Speaker 1: cultural competency and community engagement represents a step toward addressing
29:45
Speaker 1: long standing gaps in the system. The role of advocacy
29:50
Speaker 1: cannot be overstated. Families of victims often play a critical
29:54
Speaker 1: role in maintaining public awareness and ensuring that cases are
29:58
Speaker 1: not forgotten. In the case of George David, statements from
30:03
Speaker 1: his daughter and others helped keep attention on the investigation
30:07
Speaker 1: and underscore the human impact of the crime. The sentencing
30:11
Speaker 1: in December twenty twenty five marked a formal conclusion to
30:15
Speaker 1: the legal process, but it does not erase the years
30:19
Speaker 1: during which the case remained unresolved. For many families, the
30:24
Speaker 1: passage of time adds layers of complexity to the experience
30:28
Speaker 1: of loss and justice. While a conviction can provide closure,
30:33
Speaker 1: it does not fully address the emotional and cultural dimensions
30:37
Speaker 1: of the crime. The George David case can be cited
30:40
Speaker 1: as a model for how targeted initiatives can improve outcomes
30:44
Speaker 1: in cases involving Indigenous victims. It demonstrates that with the
30:49
Speaker 1: right combination of resources, expertise, and commitment, it is possible
30:55
Speaker 1: to achieve justice even after many years. At the same
30:59
Speaker 1: time time, the case highlights the scale of the challenge.
31:04
Speaker 1: There are many other cases that remain unsolved, both within
31:09
Speaker 1: Washington State and across the broader region. The success of
31:13
Speaker 1: one investigation does not resolve the systemic issues that contribute
31:18
Speaker 1: to the missing and murdered Indigenous women and people epidemic,
31:22
Speaker 1: but it does provide a framework for future efforts. In
31:27
Speaker 1: analyzing this case, it's difficult to maintain a balance between
31:31
Speaker 1: recognizing the achievements of the investigation and acknowledging the broader context.
31:38
Speaker 1: The conviction represents the significant milestone, but it is also
31:41
Speaker 1: part of an ongoing process of addressing disparities in how
31:46
Speaker 1: cases are handled. The murder of George David represents a
31:51
Speaker 1: significant and deeply impactful case within the broader crisis of
31:55
Speaker 1: violence against Indigenous people, not only in the Position Northwest,
32:01
Speaker 1: but all over the world. George's work reflected generations of
32:06
Speaker 1: Indigenous storytelling traditions, and his presence within the artistic and
32:12
Speaker 1: cultural community extended beyond the borders of any single state
32:17
Speaker 1: or nation. The story of George David is ultimately one
32:21
Speaker 1: of both loss and resilience. It reflects the impact of
32:25
Speaker 1: violence on individuals and communities, as well as the potential
32:29
Speaker 1: for change when systems are adapted to better meet the
32:33
Speaker 1: needs of those they serve. For those studying or discussing
32:37
Speaker 1: the case, that offers valuable insights into the intersection of culture, justice,
32:41
Speaker 1: and investigative practice. The Missing Indigenous Person's Toolkit is a
32:46
Speaker 1: resource provided by the Washington State Missing and Murdered Indigenous
32:51
Speaker 1: Women and People Task Force. The eighteen page document provides
32:56
Speaker 1: instructions what to do immediately, action to take after reporting,
33:02
Speaker 1: next steps, and even how to use local and social
33:05
Speaker 1: media to advance efforts in the case of a missing
33:07
Speaker 1: loved one.
33:09
Speaker 2: Oh wow, that seems like really valuable information to have,
33:15
Speaker 2: so like, families don't have to wait ten years, right
33:18
Speaker 2: or longer to get shit done.
33:21
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think we all understand the significance of this case,
33:28
Speaker 1: like kind of in a broader sense of just the
33:32
Speaker 1: injustice that so many have faith in this population and
33:38
Speaker 1: the you know, systemic challenges. But I don't think I've
33:43
Speaker 1: really bottom lined it in a way that like fully
33:49
Speaker 1: explains why this is so important. But this case, it's
33:59
Speaker 1: the first time that Washington's MMIWP Cold Case unit has
34:06
Speaker 1: helped secure charges in a homicide. Oh wow, because they
34:13
Speaker 1: you know, we're established basically at twenty twenty three, and
34:18
Speaker 1: you know the time that it takes obviously to see
34:22
Speaker 1: results in a cold case. I mean, it's actually, I
34:27
Speaker 1: feel like a pretty remarkable turnaround. Yeah.
34:34
Speaker 2: When you said that, like they were established and you
34:36
Speaker 2: said twenty twenty three, yeah, I was like, whoa, Okay,
34:39
Speaker 2: that is actually pretty good.
34:41
Speaker 1: Pretty fast when I came across this with this case,
34:45
Speaker 1: I just was like, Holy shit, Like I can't believe that.
34:51
Speaker 1: I mean, this is something that's happened obviously in recent months,
34:55
Speaker 1: but I'm like, how am I just hearing about this now?
34:58
Speaker 1: And I think it's just more of the same, right,
35:01
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just like this super important thing that
35:05
Speaker 1: has occurred. It's like a landmark thing, but nobody really
35:11
Speaker 1: is talking about it, and it's just kind of more
35:15
Speaker 1: of the same in that respect, where like the reporting
35:18
Speaker 1: isn't really like we're just not hearing about it, and
35:21
Speaker 1: I'm just so sick of that. Yeah, I've lost my
35:26
Speaker 1: ability to heement. I didn't I didn't take enough time
35:30
Speaker 1: to kind of make a script like this part of
35:34
Speaker 1: it my sort of reaction to this like really momentous thing.
35:41
Speaker 1: I mean, I know that anybody that's listening is going
35:44
Speaker 1: to understand just like this significance because of the historical
35:48
Speaker 1: and cultural all of it. But the fact that like
35:52
Speaker 1: this is the first it just just yeah, that's amazing.
35:57
Speaker 1: I'm so glad we're not doing video for this episode
35:59
Speaker 1: because I just look, I look horrendous. If you're I mean,
36:04
Speaker 1: if I sound not great because I have cried at
36:09
Speaker 1: some points, just think how awful I must actually look,
36:14
Speaker 1: it's really hard to look at her, you guys, but
36:18
Speaker 1: that's amazing. I hope. I'm glad you're talking about it.
36:21
Speaker 2: I'm glad I know about it now, because otherwise I
36:25
Speaker 2: probably wouldn't, and maybe a lot of people listening wouldn't either.
36:30
Speaker 2: But I hope it's the first of many that they help.
36:35
Speaker 1: I mean, it definitely feels like a very early positive
36:39
Speaker 1: sign of of you know what's to come. I'd like
36:44
Speaker 1: to end by sharing some of the thoughts and reflections
36:47
Speaker 1: shared by those closest to George, a man who was
36:51
Speaker 1: said to have been called Grandpa by roughly forty children
36:54
Speaker 1: within his community. His daughter Maria, had two half finished
37:01
Speaker 1: puppets he was working on near the time of his death.
37:05
Speaker 1: In a statement she provided to the Washington Attorney General's office,
37:09
Speaker 1: she said, Indian artwork is a way for us to
37:13
Speaker 1: tell our stories, and his stories can no longer be told.
37:19
Speaker 1: We will never be able to see any of my
37:21
Speaker 1: dad's artwork again. Tabatha Frank, a tribal youth advocate who
37:28
Speaker 1: was with Maria at Alcorn sentencing, said Maria said she
37:33
Speaker 1: felt relief. She thought it would be a cold case
37:37
Speaker 1: and never be dealt with. She was stuck in that
37:41
Speaker 1: moment for nine years, so this is important to her
37:46
Speaker 1: healing journey.
37:48
Speaker 2: Incredibly important, Like, oh my gosh, I can't even imagine
37:53
Speaker 2: nine years and some people, I mean, some people are
37:56
Speaker 2: in that forever.
37:57
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean happen you know, two people that are
38:04
Speaker 1: victims of crime or the surviving loved ones of all
38:07
Speaker 1: different backgrounds. But I you know, I think I can't
38:12
Speaker 1: overstate how certain populations are just just disproportionately affected. And
38:18
Speaker 1: there are so many people that have gone to their
38:20
Speaker 1: graves not knowing what happened to their loved ones. Oh.
38:25
Speaker 1: I did just have a thought.
38:27
Speaker 2: You said the rapper was taken off of the what
38:30
Speaker 2: was it a wrench or something?
38:32
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was a pipe wrench, and that's what she used.
38:36
Speaker 1: That she used the pipe wrench is the assumption. Yeah,
38:41
Speaker 1: so that is interesting.
38:42
Speaker 2: I was thinking, well, maybe I don't know, maybe if
38:45
Speaker 2: she claimed it was like self defense or something, but like,
38:49
Speaker 2: why would you have time to take a wrapper off
38:51
Speaker 2: of a pipe wrench?
38:52
Speaker 1: And when they say rapper on a pipe wrench, I
38:55
Speaker 1: don't know exactly what that consists of because I don't
38:58
Speaker 1: think of like tools that's having, like a rapper like
39:03
Speaker 1: if I buy a hammer, it doesn't come like shrink
39:06
Speaker 1: wrapped or anything. Oh right, Yeah, I guess I don't
39:08
Speaker 1: know what I was thinking. Maybe it was just but
39:10
Speaker 1: maybe it was I mean, stranger things have happened. I
39:14
Speaker 1: just I don't really know.
39:17
Speaker 2: Or maybe it was just like in a bag or something,
39:19
Speaker 2: or I mean, I don't know. That's I guess where
39:24
Speaker 2: more of my questions are. Yeah, I wonder what was about?
39:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, sort of these inane details that you're like, this
39:31
Speaker 1: really doesn't matter, but I am curious because there's not
39:36
Speaker 1: much else for there's really no other thread for me
39:39
Speaker 1: to tug at. You know, well, let's do some taro.
39:46
Speaker 1: Let's see what the cards have to say. Right, I'm
39:49
Speaker 1: gonna do this thread. Do you want to tell me
39:52
Speaker 1: like a side of the deck. Do you want me
39:54
Speaker 1: to just run my fingers over them? Oh? Yeah, run
39:58
Speaker 1: your fingers and I'll say stop, okay, okay stop. Oh
40:04
Speaker 1: this is interesting. It's such a bright, happy card and
40:10
Speaker 1: bunny because it's for those of us that do celebrate
40:13
Speaker 1: it was just easter. Oh it's a bunny funny. Yeah,
40:18
Speaker 1: it's like.
40:19
Speaker 2: A bunny with like sunshine, like a sunshine halo around
40:22
Speaker 2: the back of it too.
40:23
Speaker 1: Yeah, so we drew the empress pictured here, this little bunnet.
40:30
Speaker 1: It is a mountain cottontail. Okay, I'm going to read
40:35
Speaker 1: you the poem. Okay. An enclosed earthen space, warm and dark, protected, hidden,
40:45
Speaker 1: enough room to kick a hind paw but not much more,
40:49
Speaker 1: cradled and supported by surrounding earth, Sounds muffled by many layers. Safety,
40:57
Speaker 1: a store of nourishment, place to develop and grow, a warren,
41:04
Speaker 1: a womb. Whoa what are it? I mean? Oh, I
41:09
Speaker 1: don't want to say what I'm thinking. Are you thinking
41:12
Speaker 1: about the sofa bed? Yes, that was immediately And some
41:18
Speaker 1: of these words like so specifically like match up to
41:23
Speaker 1: a bed, and.
41:24
Speaker 2: Like I know the poem is supposed to be about
41:26
Speaker 2: like a safe a space, but like, oh my gosh,
41:31
Speaker 2: the the wordings.
41:33
Speaker 1: Mm hmm, it's touching on something that like really freaks
41:38
Speaker 1: me out about it because obviously George was already deceased.
41:43
Speaker 1: He had asked at the point that he was, you know,
41:47
Speaker 1: stuffed into this sofa bed. But there's something about that
41:52
Speaker 1: being like it's enclosed, but like warm and dark is
41:58
Speaker 1: some like those are things like everybody wants to be
42:01
Speaker 1: in general, Okay, in general, a warm room dark you
42:06
Speaker 1: want it to be like conducive to sleep protected, but
42:10
Speaker 1: the hidden part Yeah, enough room to kick a hind pop,
42:15
Speaker 1: but not much more. I don't I mean cradled that.
42:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, it just gives a whole other meaning to this
42:22
Speaker 2: little sweet poem when you're yeah, when you know what happened?
42:28
Speaker 1: All right, So our keywords are creativity, feminine power, mature women, fertility,
42:38
Speaker 1: and pleasure. Creativity though he was an artist, Yeah, yeah,
42:47
Speaker 1: And I guess also when you think about art in
42:51
Speaker 1: the context of like the confines of binary male female,
42:58
Speaker 1: that like that whole construct our society or is something
43:03
Speaker 1: that largely is viewed as a much more feminine pursuit.
43:07
Speaker 1: So maybe in a way that kind of makes sense.
43:10
Speaker 2: You said he did totem poles and stuff, So I
43:12
Speaker 2: was thinking like maybe like a lot of his art
43:14
Speaker 2: was nature oriented, like other nature.
43:18
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and I was gonna say, even even the fertility.
43:24
Speaker 1: I feel like, in a way, like the fact that
43:28
Speaker 1: there were dozens of children that referred to him as Grandpa.
43:33
Speaker 1: They were not like obviously his biological children, but obviously
43:38
Speaker 1: they were looking for more of a metaphorical or metaphysical
43:42
Speaker 1: meaning in the context of a tarot reading, and to
43:46
Speaker 1: me that speaks to like a fertility of just of
43:49
Speaker 1: just life in the broader sense. Right. Yeah, I like
43:54
Speaker 1: that the Empress symbolizes feminine power in the material world,
44:00
Speaker 1: contrast to the High Priestess, who represents feminine spiritual power.
44:05
Speaker 1: A card of beauty and creativity. Beauty and creativity there
44:10
Speaker 1: it is. The Empress is depicted as the universal mother
44:14
Speaker 1: who governs pro creation, nurturing the security and comforts of home,
44:21
Speaker 1: and domestic harmony. And it's funny to think about too that.
44:26
Speaker 1: You know, people described him as someone who was just
44:29
Speaker 1: like almost like eternally optimistic, and his daughter actually kind
44:34
Speaker 1: of had a really funny quote about how he just
44:36
Speaker 1: like he had no time for drama. Oh. I love that.
44:42
Speaker 1: She's usually shown as a mature female figure, sometimes seated
44:46
Speaker 1: on a throne, sometimes in nature, surrounded by flowers and vegetation,
44:52
Speaker 1: indicating fruitfulness, fruitfulness like having forty grandkids. Yeah. The Empress
45:01
Speaker 1: is linked to Venus, the goddess of love, beauty, and pleasure,
45:05
Speaker 1: and some tarot decks include the astrological glyph for the
45:09
Speaker 1: planet on this card.
45:11
Speaker 2: It is, I mean like his art was fruitful too,
45:13
Speaker 2: you know, like he just sold some art. I mean yeah,
45:17
Speaker 2: the money it got stolen and right, God is like
45:21
Speaker 2: cut coort by someone who is very greedy, but still
45:25
Speaker 2: like he just made some money off his art.
45:29
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, there's an extra excerpt. The Lady is the goddess,
45:35
Speaker 1: the feminine energy behind manifest nature, the bestower of fertility
45:42
Speaker 1: and creativity, who brings all seeds to fruition. The Empress
45:48
Speaker 1: represents strong feminine energy and may describe a mother figure
45:52
Speaker 1: or a mature, artistic slash creative person. Whether she rules
45:59
Speaker 1: the home or business. She represents female authority. A card
46:03
Speaker 1: of fertility, she signifies abundance of all kinds and shows
46:09
Speaker 1: your capacity for nurturing, caring, and supporting others as well
46:13
Speaker 1: as yourself.
46:14
Speaker 2: That reminds me of the what was it called that
46:19
Speaker 2: helped get the case solved?
46:21
Speaker 1: The MMIWP Cold Case Unit.
46:24
Speaker 2: Yes, I was like, there was too many letters and
46:27
Speaker 2: I couldn't put it together.
46:28
Speaker 1: It's a mouthful.
46:31
Speaker 2: Yeah, it reminds me of that, Like they're going to
46:34
Speaker 2: help people and it's going to be very bountiful.
46:37
Speaker 1: I think. Yeah, sometimes this card refers to your own
46:42
Speaker 1: mother in a man's reading, the Empress can encourage him
46:48
Speaker 1: to recognize the feminine component in himself. Oh. In a
46:55
Speaker 1: reading about money, the Empress indicates good fortune and success. Yes,
47:00
Speaker 1: you possess abundant resources and know how to use them productively.
47:05
Speaker 1: She can also recommend joining resources with a partner or
47:09
Speaker 1: group to increase financial gains. If the reading is about
47:14
Speaker 1: your work, you're involved in a creative project and giving
47:18
Speaker 1: it your all, and success is likely. She may show
47:22
Speaker 1: that you've got things under control, or advise you to
47:25
Speaker 1: take charge and work congenially toward a common goal. The
47:29
Speaker 1: emphasis message to you is find harmony, unite disparate factors,
47:34
Speaker 1: and reconcile differences for the good of all, which is
47:40
Speaker 1: super significant in this case. Obviously.
47:44
Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like that's kind of like what he
47:47
Speaker 2: would want us to remember too, because you mentioned he was, yeah,
47:50
Speaker 2: very optimistic, So I'm like, at first this card, I
47:53
Speaker 2: was like, I don't know about this, but.
47:55
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really hesitant.
47:59
Speaker 2: Yeah, it seems like what he would want out of this,
48:02
Speaker 2: you know, I think so too.
48:05
Speaker 1: In a reading about love, this card symbolizes a mature
48:08
Speaker 1: loving relationship based on mutual respect, trust, and affection. It
48:14
Speaker 1: also indicates a powerful sexual connection. In some cases, the
48:19
Speaker 1: empress may refer to a pregnancy or the desire for
48:22
Speaker 1: a pregnancy. I don't know. I guess we can cut
48:26
Speaker 1: this if it doesn't feel like it's relevant. But there's
48:30
Speaker 1: another extra excerpt. It says, I, with a deeper instinct,
48:37
Speaker 1: choose a man who compels my strength, who makes enormous
48:42
Speaker 1: demands on me, who does not doubt my courage or
48:45
Speaker 1: my toughness, who does not believe me naive or innocent,
48:50
Speaker 1: who has the courage to treat me like a woman.
48:54
Speaker 2: Well, sweet, I don't know if it has anything to
48:56
Speaker 2: do with it, but yeah, I don't know either. It
49:00
Speaker 2: is definitely interesting that this card is so like female
49:06
Speaker 2: oriented and it was a woman that killed him.
49:10
Speaker 1: Yeah. Actually, that's really interesting because obviously we know that
49:15
Speaker 1: the vast majority of violent crimes are perpetrated by men.
49:23
Speaker 1: Sorry not sorry, facts are facts. Yeah, I don't know.
49:28
Speaker 1: The other part that I feel like is really sad
49:30
Speaker 1: about this case. I had this thought that and it
49:34
Speaker 1: wouldn't be the first time that I've heard kind of
49:37
Speaker 1: a sentiment like this. But I feel like sometimes in
49:43
Speaker 1: particular marginalized communities, when a crime is perpetrated by a
49:52
Speaker 1: member of that community. So Tina was a member of
49:57
Speaker 1: a different Bible affiliation, different different tribal community, but the
50:05
Speaker 1: man that she killed was also Native. Wow. I feel
50:10
Speaker 1: like there can be a tendency to be like, oh
50:13
Speaker 1: well that, you know, just an attitude of like, oh,
50:17
Speaker 1: these people are just killing each other, like like let
50:20
Speaker 1: him at it? Who cares? Almost right? Yeah? Very gross,
50:25
Speaker 1: but like in a way I don't agree with that. Yeah,
50:28
Speaker 1: but like in a way, there can be this attitude
50:30
Speaker 1: of like, well, like why is that my problem? Or like, well,
50:35
Speaker 1: that we're not doing anything wrong. They're just killing each
50:38
Speaker 1: other and blah blah blah. And we kill each other
50:41
Speaker 1: all the time, right, I mean people hurt other people
50:46
Speaker 1: and they're you know, national origin, their you know, affiliation
50:51
Speaker 1: with any other type of group what like. Sometimes that
50:57
Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily have the significance. But I guess what I'm
51:03
Speaker 1: struggling to like sort of put into words is that
51:08
Speaker 1: you know, people say like, oh well, and you hear
51:11
Speaker 1: it a lot about like the black community, Oh well,
51:15
Speaker 1: that's just like gang members, you know, killing each other,
51:18
Speaker 1: and you know that whatever shitty thing they're gonna say.
51:23
Speaker 1: But it's like that is a direct result of these
51:27
Speaker 1: horrible systemic things that we have done to marginalize these communities,
51:32
Speaker 1: and they are all trapped in often like you know,
51:36
Speaker 1: these dilapidated school systems and like failing dying communities, and
51:45
Speaker 1: like the things that people will do to try to
51:48
Speaker 1: survive can be horrific and incredibly sad. But it's like
51:56
Speaker 1: this is part of like what our system has done
52:02
Speaker 1: to them. Does that make sense? Makes a sense? You're
52:08
Speaker 1: trapped And I've I've heard a lot of conversations where
52:13
Speaker 1: sort of this this premise of like crab in a
52:17
Speaker 1: bucket has come up. And the thing about crabs in
52:21
Speaker 1: a bucket is that if they start to see one
52:24
Speaker 1: of them that is, you know, attempting to or about
52:29
Speaker 1: to escape, they will drag them back down. Damn crabs
52:33
Speaker 1: are fucked. Yeah, it's kind of crazy, but it's like
52:39
Speaker 1: and not that like that is the mentality of like
52:43
Speaker 1: Tina or of anybody else like in a in this
52:46
Speaker 1: situation or like a similar situation per se. But it
52:50
Speaker 1: is sort of this, like you are trapped by the
52:54
Speaker 1: system that has put you. Does that make sense? Looks
52:58
Speaker 1: like yeah, like the system just reinforces like it's just
53:03
Speaker 1: this vicious cycle of like, you know, you're in a
53:07
Speaker 1: uh you know, a community where like you don't have resources.
53:11
Speaker 1: You know, people maybe don't have access to education, or
53:16
Speaker 1: you know, they're housing options are less than ideal. Uh,
53:22
Speaker 1: you know, it's lower income, like all of these different things.
53:27
Speaker 1: You know, you face violence at the hands of law enforcement,
53:30
Speaker 1: whatever it is, and it just kind of keeps the
53:35
Speaker 1: wheel turning on this like perpetual cycle of just like
53:41
Speaker 1: being oppressed, and it's in a way like it's it
53:45
Speaker 1: becomes like almost inescapable.
53:48
Speaker 2: I just I don't know, Oh, that sounds like the inescapable,
53:54
Speaker 2: like being stuck.
53:56
Speaker 1: Oh my god. Yeah.
53:58
Speaker 2: Then, and I'm thinking of the cave in the in
54:01
Speaker 2: the story, the little cave.
54:03
Speaker 1: That's awful. Yeah, I don't know. I feel like all
54:06
Speaker 1: of that was just like way too many words to
54:08
Speaker 1: try to explain something that's just like it's like we
54:12
Speaker 1: all kind of in a way inherently understand it, but
54:15
Speaker 1: it's hard to put it into words that explains it
54:19
Speaker 1: without like being condescending or offensive in some way, or
54:25
Speaker 1: making assumptions about like people that you don't necessarily have
54:31
Speaker 1: like a direct lived experience that they do if that
54:36
Speaker 1: makes sense. It's like you're kind of you're you're basing
54:40
Speaker 1: sort of these like ideas and principles off of like
54:44
Speaker 1: things that you like observed but like thirdhand or you know,
54:50
Speaker 1: it's like because I'm I'm not living on a reservation
54:54
Speaker 1: and basing all of the challenges that they do and
54:57
Speaker 1: and not that you know, George also wasn't living on
55:00
Speaker 1: res but it's like it extends beyond that, even when
55:04
Speaker 1: you're not somebody who's native that's living on the res
55:08
Speaker 1: like your heritage and all of the horrific like oppressive
55:15
Speaker 1: forces that have affected these communities for hundreds of years,
55:19
Speaker 1: like that still follows them. It just makes me so sad.
55:22
Speaker 1: Thanks for making us all sad. Kalin again, once again,
55:26
Speaker 1: congrats to you. But nobody has really talked about this case.
55:32
Speaker 1: I came. I came across it because I was literally
55:34
Speaker 1: looking for cases that are like really significant but that
55:40
Speaker 1: like haven't had fifty thousand podcasts talk about them, and
55:45
Speaker 1: like are underreported in like you know, traditional news sources
55:50
Speaker 1: and stuff. And I was like, I can't believe it.
55:54
Speaker 1: I'm so excited to talk about this case because it
55:57
Speaker 1: is so important, but I will be so excited if
56:00
Speaker 1: we get to be like one of the you know,
56:02
Speaker 1: first podcasts in our genre and our niche that talks
56:07
Speaker 1: about it and like brings this into kind of consciousness
56:10
Speaker 1: for people. I mean, I feel like I'm overplaying this
56:14
Speaker 1: perfic of our show, but I'm like, I want people
56:18
Speaker 1: to know about this, and I just you know, it's
56:21
Speaker 1: exciting to think that. It's like, you know, you can
56:24
Speaker 1: help to spread sort of awareness and like this this
56:28
Speaker 1: is so it's so fucking huge. It is. I might
56:31
Speaker 1: be overselling our significance in relation to it, but I can't.
56:35
Speaker 1: I can't possibly oversell how important and how significant like
56:40
Speaker 1: this case and you know what's happened here, like this
56:44
Speaker 1: development with the cold case unit. Like, I'm not over
56:47
Speaker 1: selling that. This is fucking huge. Yeah, that's amazing. It's
56:52
Speaker 1: like the first of many building blocks that everybody needs
56:56
Speaker 1: to be able to build trust between these marginalized community
57:00
Speaker 1: and like I said, the people that are, you know,
57:04
Speaker 1: in these positions specifically to protect and traditionally maybe have
57:10
Speaker 1: not done that in every case when it comes to
57:13
Speaker 1: these communities. It's the first thing that I've that I've
57:16
Speaker 1: heard in the news in a long time that actually
57:20
Speaker 1: makes me feel hopeful for the future. So we need
57:25
Speaker 1: more of that. Yeah. It just feels like, even though
57:28
Speaker 1: it's really really sad, it just it feels like it's
57:31
Speaker 1: important to know about the good things that are happening
57:35
Speaker 1: in the world right now.
57:37
Speaker 2: So you brought us down and then you also brought
57:40
Speaker 2: us up. Okay, you're forgiven.
57:43
Speaker 1: Yeah. It's like when you go uh to boot camp
57:46
Speaker 1: and they break you down to build you back up.
57:49
Speaker 1: That's exactly what Caitlin is like. She's just like boot camp. Yeah,
57:55
Speaker 1: I feel like that explains a lot. I think that
58:00
Speaker 1: I think that that's all we got today.
58:03
Speaker 2: I don't think I could handle any more bad news
58:05
Speaker 2: or good news. So you know what, I'm crept out.
58:08
Speaker 1: No news is good news. Yeah, just no more, no more.
58:13
Speaker 1: All done. We're done for today. All right? Should we
58:17
Speaker 1: say goodbye to the people, Yeah, let's do it. Have
58:21
Speaker 1: a creepy ass day. We'll see you next Thursday. Public
58:27
Speaker 1: statements from family members emphasize not only the loss of
58:31
Speaker 1: a loved one. Are you hearing the squeaky toy scharlet, Hey,