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CLASSIC: Did the US Mafia actually start in New Orleans? · Ridiculous History

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Fellow ridiculous historians, you come to us on the day
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: of our daughter's wedding.
• 0:04
  Speaker 2: Kidding. On this the day?
• 0:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: On this the day. You bring us no snacks. What's
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: going on? We, in 2019, folks, for this classic episode,
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: we were astonished to learn that there's an argument for
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: the U.S. mafia beginning in New Orleans, not in New
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: York City or, of course, Jersey.
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: Not going to lie, Ben, I have zero recollection of
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: having done this episode. So I'm going to listen along
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: with you folks at home on the edge of my
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: seat because I really don't know what the answer to
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: the question is. The question being, is this the case?
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: And if so, why?
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. You come into
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: my house on a day my daughter is to be married.
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: You ask me to do murder for money? Welcome to
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: the show, Ridiculous Historians. Thanks so much for tuning in.
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: Circumstances find us recording on a lovely, almost 100-degree morning
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: here in Atlanta, Georgia. I'm Ben.
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: I know. Ben, was that from Dirty Harry?
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: That is a quote from Don Vito Corleone in The Godfather.
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: Ah, yes. Famously portrayed by Clint Eastwood in the film
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: Dirty Harry.
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: Working under his famous pseudonym Marlon Brando, which is a
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: pretty fake name if you think about it.
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: Got to be.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: You know who only uses their real name here in
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: the United States? That's our good friend and super producer
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: Casey Pegram.
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: Vive la bouche.
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: Vive la bouche. Wait, wait, wait. Did we say your
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: name yet?
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: Okay, well, you're Noel.
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: I am Noel. It's true. Noel is my name.
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: You established that.
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: I am not a member of La Cosa Nostra, but
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: I do enjoy a good mob flick from time to time.
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: I've been rewatching The Sopranos lately. Got my start doing
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: it on an airplane where it was censored in a
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: hilarious way. So I watched one through three of season
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: one in that fashion. And then once the swears started
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: getting back in the mix, it was borderline shocking, Ben,
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: let me tell you. These guys really love their Fs
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: and Jeffs.
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: I still haven't watched Sopranos all the way through.
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: Are you kidding me?
• 2:35
  Speaker 3: No.
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: Wow. It's really good.
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: I know how it is.
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: I watched the last episode. Yeah, it ends with a
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: journey song and a cut to black. And that's not
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: a spoiler.
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: Well, it can't be a spoiler. We have statutes established
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: for this. I think it's past the statute of limitations
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: for spoilers. You know, here's the thing about the statute
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: of limitations for spoilers.
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: Yes, it exists. But are you still being a bit
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: of a schmuck if you do it and don't prepare
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: someone for something that they're enjoying? There's so much content
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: out there in the world.
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: That's weird. Are you saying that you're doing a complete
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: 180 from your previously passionately completely opposite stance?
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: No, listen, Ben. We were talking specifically about the ending
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: of Lost that I did not even actually spoil. I
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: was accused of spoiling it, but the thing I said
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: was not in fact a spoiler at all.
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: I believe in that situation, which was probably more than
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: a few years ago now. It's been several years. Yeah,
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: in that situation. My position is that the creators of
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: Lost spoiled the ending more than any audience member could.
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: But I am a huge fan of mafia films, a
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: lot of crime films, but mafia films in particular. And
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: off air, we were kicking around this idea. Casey, what
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: are some of your favorite crime films, specifically organized crime,
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: Cosa Nostra, Mafia?
• 3:47
  Speaker 3: Well, Ben, when you asked me about this, my mind
• 3:49
  Speaker 3: was completely blank because the first thing that jumped to
• 3:51
  Speaker 3: my head was Scorsese's Casino, which is far from obscure.
• 3:54
  Speaker 3: But it is definitely one of my favorites, along with Goodfellas. But,
• 3:58
  Speaker 3: you know, if you want to go a little deeper cut,
• 4:01
  Speaker 3: I would say check out one of the films of
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: Jean-Pierre Melville, like Le Cirque La Rouge or maybe Bob
• 4:08
  Speaker 3: Le Flambeur.
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: What about La Samurai? Isn't that a mafia film? Yeah,
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: La Samurai, that's Melville as well. That's right.
• 4:13
  Speaker 3: And Alain Delon. And yeah, that's a good one as well.
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: Casey on the case.
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: Film edition. Man, we should do that more often. That'd
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: be cool.
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, if it comes up, yeah, just let us know, Casey,
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: if the spirit moves you. I don't ever want it
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: to be something where you feel stressed, like, oh, crap,
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: I have to come up with a movie for this episode.
• 4:31
  Speaker 3: Ew.
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: Ew. Who cares about homework? What's a crime film you like, Noel?
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: I'll tell you what I watched recently was The French Connection.
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: I'd never seen it before. It is a, oh, gosh.
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: William Friedkin. William Friedkin film, famously directed The Exorcist and–
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: What else did he direct that was really great? To
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: Live and Die in L.A. To Live and Die in L.A.,
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: which I have not seen. Oh, it's fantastic. He also
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: did a movie about, what's it called? Oh, Sorcerer. Sorcerer,
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: which has a Tangerine Dream soundtrack that I really like.
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: But the thing that was so cool about French Connection
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: is it's very naturalistic. It's just very, like, something about
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: it makes you feel like you're really in the room.
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: I think a lot of it was improvised. There's this
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: incredible chase sequence where Gene Hackman is chasing a New
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: York subway train that's at the portion where it's on
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: an elevated track, and he's in this car that he's commandeered,
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: and he's driving underneath the track, and it's just such
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: a dynamic, cool, badass chase sequence. Really, really frenetic, high-energy film.
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: You know, Robert De Niro, I thought, did a good
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: job taking the directorial position with A Bronx Tale. Do
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: you guys remember that one?
• 5:33
  Speaker 3: I never saw that, actually.
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: It was pretty good. It triggers some nostalgia for me,
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: which may be part of the reason I liked it.
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: Another old one that I really enjoyed was The Big Heat.
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: That's like 1950s.
• 5:46
  Speaker 3: I think The Big Heat is Fritz Lang, actually. He's
• 5:48
  Speaker 3: a great German filmmaker that came over to the States
• 5:51
  Speaker 3: after Goebbels offered him the German film industry.
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: The whole thing?
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: On a platter?
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Ufa.
• 5:57
  Speaker 3: And he thought, maybe not, and he fled Germany that night.
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: The Big Heat is pretty dark as 50 noirs go,
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: but it's worth a watch, especially if it's something... that
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: you've seen pop up on some film list and you've
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: never quite gotten around to. I'd say it's worth a watch.
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: It's surprisingly violent for the time. Today's show is about
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: organized crime, specifically the mafia, specifically the Italian-American mafia. However,
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: it is not about New York City.
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: No, it's about another place entirely, Ben, that does have
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: a reputation for revelry. It does have a reputation for seediness,
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: a certain element. but I've never in my life associated
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: it with organized crime until we started looking into this topic.
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: It's a place referred to often as the Big Easy,
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: New Orleans, NOLA, or New Orleans, or New Orleans.
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: That's correct. Yeah, New Orleans, beautiful city, home to almost
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: a parallel branch of American history. You know, one thing
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: that is confusing to many kids growing up in the
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: United States outside of Louisiana is is the concept of
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: parishes rather than counties. Because Louisiana has parishes, and that
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: is one of the many vestigial traditions carried down from
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: its history as a French city, a French territory or region. And,
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: of course, this city is home to so many amazing
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  Speaker 1: things that are influential not just in the U.S., but
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: in the world entire. And it is also home to
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  Speaker 1: the mafia. As we found out, you see, Many of us,
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  Speaker 1: myself included in the past, would reasonably assume that the mafia,
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: the Italian-American mafia specifically, had its roots in the Big Apple,
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  Speaker 1: New York City, NYC. Because this is where you see
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: the godfather being set. This is where the five great
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  Speaker 1: crime families are based. And this is where millions and
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: millions of Italian immigrants live. originally came. They first came
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: to New York City, Statue of Liberty, Ellis Island, the
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  Speaker 1: whole nine. In reality, though, the first Italian-American mafia came
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  Speaker 1: from New Orleans. That was the first one. And it's
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  Speaker 1: also the site of the first major, let's say, maybe
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  Speaker 1: not conflict, but mafia incident, mafia murder.
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's true, Ben. And the thing is, the actual
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: first on the list for immigration from Italy was places
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: like Argentina and Brazil, which I would never have really
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: considered either because they had similar cultures to what the
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: Italian immigrants were used to in their homeland. New Orleans
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: became a popular second choice.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, this was during the 1800s, mainly because there was
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: already so much trade with New Orleans and cities and
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: regions in Brazil and Argentina. This is weird because it
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: already began to trigger some xenophobia amongst people who were
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: not Sicilian or not Italian. The New Orleans Times reported
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: back in 1869 that parts of the city were overrun with,
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: get this, quote, well-known and notorious Sicilian murderers, counterfeiters, and
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  Speaker 1: burglars who in the last month have formed a sort
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  Speaker 1: of general co-partnership or stock company for the plunder and
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: disturbance of the city.
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  Speaker 2: Yikes. That's not the kind of element you want coming
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  Speaker 2: into your city.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, that's how you would describe a mafia if
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: you had never heard of the mafia before.
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  Speaker 2: That's true, but this is a time where this is
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: very new, right, for the U.S. They didn't know about
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: the crime families in Italy. You know, there was no Internet.
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  Speaker 2: It wasn't, like, super common knowledge. This was, like, a
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: very new thing that was kind of invading their community.
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: Mm-hmm. And this sort of tension continues building between the average,
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: the squares, the non-squares. citizens, the authorities in New Orleans
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  Speaker 1: and the mafia. It reaches ahead in what I had
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: started to describe this earlier, the first major incident, the
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: first murder occurs on October 15th, 1890. There are probably
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: other ones, but this is the first one we know about.
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: New Orleans Police Superintendent David Hennessy is assassinated, basically, murdered
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: execution style. And then public outrage and hysteria breaks. Hundreds
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: of Sicilians get arrested. Eventually, 19 are fingered for the crime.
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: But then they were acquitted.
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and just before that happened, Giuseppe Esposito, who was
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: one of the first known Sicilian mafia members to come
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: to the United States, he actually came to New York.
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: And this is after he and six of his cronies,
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  Speaker 2: murdered the chancellor and a vice chancellor of a province
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  Speaker 2: in Sicily in addition to 11 very, very influential and
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: rich landowners. And he was arrested in New Orleans in 1881.
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: And then he was extradited to Italy. And New Orleans
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: is becoming a hotbed of this kind of activity. And
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: it's sort of starting to bubble over with this incident
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: that you're describing, Ben. And it led to some pretty
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: serious consequences, didn't it?
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So on October 15th, 1890, David Hennessy is murdered. 19,
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: as I said, hundreds of Sicilians arrested, 19 go to trial,
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: but they're acquitted. And this makes everyone else in the
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: city say someone was bribing them. Someone was scaring the witnesses.
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: So the citizens of New Orleans, the squares I mentioned earlier,
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: organize a lynch mob and they kill 11 of those
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: 19 people who got away. Two of them were hanged.
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: Nine of them were shot. and the other eight escaped.
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: We're not sure what happened to them, but this, along
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: with that criminal you're describing, Noel, gives us a very
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: different image of New Orleans. You know, we imagine the
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: many other problems the city had at the time, but
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: we don't really think of imported Italian criminal enterprise, you know?
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: We know that there has been fairly rich research on this,
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: especially by the Sicilian historian, Salvatore Lupo in his history
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: of the mafia, he talks about how you can trace
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: the spread of the mafia in the U.S. directly to
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: Sicilian immigration to New Orleans. And by the end of
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: the 19th century, New Orleans had the largest Sicilian population
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: in the U.S., which surprised me. I guess I just
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: always assumed it would have been New York.
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: I would have, too.
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: And apparently, as well, Ben, one reason this was the case,
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: is the state of Louisiana was working with sugar planters
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: to replace slave labor. So that kind of immigration, opening
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: up that kind of immigration was part of that effort.
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: Yes. So they've got booming agricultural business, right? This is
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: a world-class port. That alone is very attractive to the mafia.
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: But if you throw in the disorganized city functions and
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: the corrupt administration, boom, boom, boom, we've got a mafia
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: moth heading toward an illicit flame.
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: Very nice image there, Ben. And that flame ended up
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: being the French Quarter and Bourbon Street specifically. So when
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: you think of Bourbon Street, anyone that's been, that's visited
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: New Orleans, you kind of think of it as being
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: the trashy kind of touristy spot that's not necessarily where
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: you want to hit if you're like kind of going
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: for off the beaten path kind of stuff. But the
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: original Bourbon Street, what led to that reputation, the original
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: Bourbon Street as kind of like, you know, established by
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: some of these these Sicilian mobsters was a just absolute
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: smorgasbord of things like jazz clubs, speakeasies, restaurants, nudie bars,
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: strip clubs, all that kind of stuff. And it was
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: all run and operated, or at least largely people were
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: getting a cut that were members of this mafia group.
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Richard Campanella, the author of Bourbon Street, a history,
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: has it this way. I think he's on the same
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: page with us here because he says, They didn't necessarily
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: control all of Bourbon Street, but they had this behind-the-scenes
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: influential consortium. You know, imagine it like this. You don't
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: own every house of ill repute on Bourbon Street, but
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: you do coordinate what they can charge for things. And
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: they do pay you a certain percentage and you help
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: keep people's turf boundaries clear.
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: It's that same thing you see in like a show
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: like Sopranos where the mob kind of underbosses or some
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: of the, what do they call them? Like enforcers, I guess,
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: go door to door to businesses collecting, well, collections is
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: what they call it. And that means that the mob
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: has a hand in offering protection to these businesses as
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: long as they're given a cut. So they sort of
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: set the tone, I guess, for the kind of businesses
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: that are lucrative and that are going to generate enough
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: money to keep them paid and keep them happy, right?
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is an interesting way to look at it.
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: We've got this quote from Campanella. He's describing the extent
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: of Bourbon Street. You know, he says, 13 blocks in
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: the quarter, one more block in another place, half is residential,
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: half is commercial, a couple hundred businesses. This is where
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: he gets to a specific example of mafia involvement. He says, quote,
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: you'd have bars, some clubs, a restaurant, and something completely unrelated,
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: like an electrical store. And in the back rooms of
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: many bars and clubs, you might have a pinball machine
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: that really was controlled by the mob. They paid off
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: the bartender to make sure only they got the money.
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: There were these bookmakers, poker machines, illegal gambling. Meanwhile, a
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: legitimate bar was up and running, and the bartenders might
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: not have anything to do with the mobsters. But make
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: no mistake, a number of owners were out and out mobsters.
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: So you could have, like, Casey could have, you know,
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: Crazy Casey's Crawfish and Jazz. club and it could be
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: totally legitimate and on the up and up but there
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: could be a back room where people go to gamble
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: and it's just sort of like contracted out.
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: To the mob yeah and the mobsters get points on
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: those poker games those illegal poker games or they're like
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: out and out controlled by the mob so for sure
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: this is a little bit off topic but really funny
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: I was in Brooklyn recently and I went to the
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: most Brooklyn establishment I've ever been to in my life
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: it was a combination laundromat pinball emporium and bar Probably
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: controlled by the mob.
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: You think so?
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: One would assume.
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: Well, we don't know if it's– we also can't profile mobs.
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: We have to be fair to organized crime. It could
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: be Irish mob.
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: That's also true.
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm just saying.
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: So where does the origin of the word mafia come
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: from and mafia versus mob?
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: Well, if we check the handy-dandy last-minute etymology dive, mafia
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: originally derives from a Sicilian adjective mafioso, which roughly translated
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: means swagger, boldness.
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: Or bravado. Got it. And then the idea of the
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: mob refers to literally like a gang, you know, a
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: group of individuals that have a common purpose.
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: Let's look at that. That's interesting. Mafia versus mob. So
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: the mafia is going to be Italian because it has
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: that Sicilian origin, but the mob can refer to other
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: organized groups or organized crime in general. So like corrupt
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: teamsters could be a mob. So a mob is not
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: necessarily the mafia, but mob is also a synonym or
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: nickname for the Italian mafia. Interesting.
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: It is interesting. So the mafia would specifically refer to
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: this idea of la cosa nostra, which is something we've
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: talked about off mic plenty. Right.
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: This thing of ours, omerta is the code. There's a gradient,
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: Campanella says, from a proper noun to a common noun.
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: So he breaks it down saying there's mafia with a
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: capital M, and then there's the mob, capital M, and
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: then there's just no capital M, mob, and then there's mobsters,
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: there's organized crime, and there are all these affiliated parties.
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: So he says it's challenging and one must be careful
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: about the terminology. And it's interesting because the government of
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: Louisiana did not originally settle on mass immigration of Sicilians.
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: They apparently tried to recruit people from China. They tried
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: to recruit people from Scandinavia, Greece, Portugal, Spanish. But they
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: were able to entice Sicilian populations because in post-unification Sicily,
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: there were a ton of reasons for people to get out.
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: Life just wasn't super great. However, as this is a
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: history show, We have to admit there is a compelling
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: reason that people think of the mafia in New York
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: now and not in New Orleans.
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: Oh, totally.
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: And that's because it's not near as prominent now because,
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: you know, we said that those first inklings of problems
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: began in the 1800s. By the 1870s, the Matranga crime
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: family has already been established in New Orleans. They're collecting tributes.
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: They're engaging in racketeering, prostitution, extortion, and so on. But
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: they're not the only game in town and fighting is
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: already breaking out in the 1880s between the crime families.
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: They want to see who controls the waterfront, right? And
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: we talked, this is ultimately what led to Hennessy's death
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: and then later the lynch mob. And it gave the
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: mafia a lesson that they never forgot because in Sicily,
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: this is a bit of a stereotype, but in Southern
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: Italy overall at the time, criminals could Act without. much
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: regard for authorities or societies. But now they learned, okay,
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: there are limits to what we can get away with here.
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: And this, a lot of people tell you that this
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: is what set the Italian American mafia on its course
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: of following strict rules and against targeting law enforcement outside
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: of very, very special circumstances. They want to.
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: Keep it quiet, right? Oh, absolutely. I mean, it's a
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: big deal even in like these crime shows and movies
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: when you kill a policeman or somebody that's a member
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: of law enforcement because that is going to open you
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: up for retaliation. And ultimately, you want to keep things
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: as copacetic as possible and as contained as possible so
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: you can continue operating. Because at the end of the day,
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: it's a business, right? They're not just there to wreak
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: mass havoc and terror and like terrorize the community. They
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: actually want to kind of be loved a little bit
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: and revered in some of these communities and have shopkeepers
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: feel like they're kind of getting something for their money.
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: You know what I mean? When they're paying these collections, sure,
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: it's a little bit of a pain. But at the
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: end of the day, they're being protected from the enemy,
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: from the other crime families or from anyone that would
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: maybe rob them because you're part of the community.
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: Right, right. It's almost a parallel branch of society, sort
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: of like how the Yakuza will give out aid to
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: victims of natural disasters. The mafia will also aid members
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: of the community when it feels expedient and advantageous for business.
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: This is the crazy part, though. So we have all
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: these Sicilians in the French Quarter, right? The French Quarter
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: is not the biggest quarter. So eventually, say the 1930s
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: and 40s, a lot of Sicilians who lived there began
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: to move out. And of course, being a Sicilian, it's
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: silly that we have to say this, but just to
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: cover our bases, being a Sicilian American obviously does not
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: automatically make you a member of the mob.
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: Of course not.
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: Only the cool ones.
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you got to be made.
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: You have to be a made man. Yeah, you have
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: to be made. So it's weird because— during the 20th century,
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: the 1900s, it seems like the Sicilian population was becoming
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: more and more suburban. And now there are only maybe
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: a handful of Sicilian residents or people of Sicilian heritage
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: living in the French Quarter.
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: That's right. And not only that, probably even fewer made
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: men that are living in New Orleans and continuing to
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: do any kind of Cosa Nostra associated business. Because, you know,
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: the mafia still exists. It is a thing. You definitely
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: don't hear as much about it because it seems like
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: because of FBI changes in the way they can prosecute
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: organized crime, it's a little bit more difficult to get
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: away with it, like the RICO Act and such. But,
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: you know, I mean, I'm sure they just kind of
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: adapted and changed the game a little bit and tried
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: to stay a little bit more under the radar.
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: And we do have at least one example, right, of
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: a famous Sicilian cop mafioso from New Orleans.
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. Carlos Marcello kind of became the head
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: honcho in New Orleans organized crime. He was born to
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: a Sicilian family in Tunisia. His name was Carlo Gero Minacori.
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: Oh, and we know him as Carlos Little Man Marcello.
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: That's right. And he immigrated directly to Louisiana in 1911,
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: and he turned to crime right Before he was even
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: a teenager and already began working in the French Quarter,
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: which at that point was the city's Little Italy.
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: Right, right. He joined the Matranga family we mentioned earlier.
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: They were also known as the Black Hand or Sicilian
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: Black Hand. And he, along with the rest of the
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: crime family, controlled operations at New Orleans docks. So there
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: was smuggling, prostitution, smuggling. drug trafficking, gambling, and then, of course,
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: as soon as Prohibition kicks in, you know what that means.
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: Money, money, money. Absolutely.
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: Bootlegging, the secret speakeasies and all that stuff. And that's
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: the kind of thing you think about. You can picture
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: in New Orleans during that time. It was like these
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: kind of smoky underground lounges with, like, jazz singers and,
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: you know, cocktails flowing and all that stuff, right?
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: Mm-hmm. And Marcelo sort of has a story that could
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: be an episode of its own. You know, he got
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: into and out of jail. He had been arrested and
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: beat raps before. Like, it's surprising. I would be surprised
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: if there was not already a film about his life.
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: But even today, he is the subject of speculation and
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: conspiracy theories. And you'll hear that he is one of
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: the people who was part of the conversation that led
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: to the assassination of President JFK in November of 1963.
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: That's right, because Robert Kennedy was a big proponent of
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: bringing down Marcello because of the fact that he had
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: done such a good job of avoiding any kind of
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: consequences to his career in organized crime. In fact, I
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: don't think it was until the age of like 72
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: that he got convicted of any kind of felonies so
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: yeah you're right Ben maybe he gets his own episode
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: for sure I love the conspiracy angle and the fact
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: that Robert yeah there's Jack Ruby's tied up in all
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: of this and Dallas and Lee Harvey Oswald all that
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: stuff big central figure in the whole JFK thing but
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: that is for another.
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: Day that is for a another day However, Noel, I
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: propose that this counts as our Louisiana episode.
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: Oh, it has to. It was definitely about Louisiana, yeah.
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: And Louisiana and New Orleans have been, on my mind
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: in particular, given the threatening weather that's coming through as
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: this podcast is recorded and releases, we want to wish
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: everybody out there best of luck. Stay safe, stay dry,
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: stay connected, have a plan. I've got some Friends in
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: New Orleans who have been keeping me up to date
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: until just a few days ago, they thought they might
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: have to evacuate. Everybody was on the edge of their seat.
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: So if you are listening from New Orleans, please say
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: hello to your fair metropolis. Love it. Miss it. Always
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: want to go check out the city and let us
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: know some of your favorite New Orleans stories. You don't
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: have to be from there to tell us. It doesn't
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: have to be a huge historical moment. What's a good
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: time you had in New Orleans?
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: I've only been the once, and the weather was terrible
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: the whole time. It was rainy and dreary, but I
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: loved every second of it. It was so much fun.
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: I really hope to go back again soon. Yeah, you
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: can write us all that stuff at ridiculous at iheartradio.com.
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: You can check us out on our Facebook group, The
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: Ridiculous Historians, where you can interact with your other members.
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: There was a really good one. Somebody posted a meme today.
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: It was a very meta meme because it was an
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: image of Christopher Columbus and his crew, and it says,
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: I don't steal memes. I discover them.
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: I saw that one. Yes. You can also find us
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: on Instagram and Twitter. I'm at Ben Bolin HSW on Twitter.
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: You can see my various work and non-work adventures on
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: Instagram where I am at Ben Bolin.
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't really do the Twitter, but you can
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: find me on Instagram at HowNowNoelBrown.
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: Big, big thanks as always to Casey Labouche-Pagram. Big thanks
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: to our friend of the show, Christopher Haciotis, who we
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: need to have on. It's been too long.
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: It has been too long. These are some of my
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: favorite episodes. that we do with Christopher. Thanks to Alex Williams,
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: who composed our theme, research associate Gabe Lugier, who's for
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: always being a boss. And thanks to you, Ben, for
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: not having me whacked yet.
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: Oh, merit is the code. I am a legitimate businessman
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: working in imports. So I guess the best thing to
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: say is not my department, Noel, but you're welcome.
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: We'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts from
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.