Latest / Pod Save America / “Biden grieves, Trump tweets.”

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“Biden grieves, Trump tweets.” · Pod Save America

0:20
Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.
0:22
Speaker 2: I'm Dan Pfeiffer.
0:23
Speaker 1: On today's pod, I talk to one of the Obama
0:25
Speaker 1: campaign's most legendary organizers, Paul Tooze. about the 2020 election
0:29
Speaker 1: and how you can make a difference. Dan, you should
0:32
Speaker 1: see Paul's beard. He looks like Santa Claus. It is outrageous.
0:38
Speaker 2: Is that pandemic related or did he happen to have
0:42
Speaker 2: that beard in a pandemic happen to happen?
0:45
Speaker 1: You know, with twos, it could be either. You don't know.
0:49
Speaker 1: Before that, we'll talk about how the president marked 100,000
0:52
Speaker 1: American deaths from coronavirus with a deranged Twitter meltdown. and
0:57
Speaker 1: Joe Biden's first public appearance and interview outside of his
0:59
Speaker 1: home since the pandemic began. But first, be sure to
1:03
Speaker 1: check out Pod Save the World this week. Tommy and
1:05
Speaker 1: Ben explain how China is trying to crush dissent in
1:08
Speaker 1: Hong Kong and how the Trump administration is increasing the
1:11
Speaker 1: risk of nuclear war by walking away from decades-old bipartisan
1:15
Speaker 1: arms control agreements. Also, check out Dan's latest Good and
1:20
Speaker 1: Bad 2020 ads video, this time with special guest David Plouffe.
1:25
Speaker 1: This is exciting.
1:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was great. As usual, Pulp is super smart.
1:29
Speaker 2: We broke down an ad from the Biden Super PAC,
1:32
Speaker 2: an ad from the Trump campaign, and the much-requested Lincoln
1:36
Speaker 2: Project ad, Morning in America.
1:38
Speaker 1: All right, so everyone go check that out on YouTube.com
1:41
Speaker 1: slash Crooked Media. Finally, if you haven't adopted a swing state,
1:46
Speaker 1: what are you waiting for? Dan, would you like to
1:49
Speaker 1: make a pitch for your adopted state of North Carolina
1:52
Speaker 1: since Lovett and Tommy and I all did ours on
1:54
Speaker 1: Tuesday's podcast? And you've had some complaints about that, that
1:58
Speaker 1: North Carolina was not giving a fair hearing on that pod.
2:02
Speaker 2: Look, my complaints about this date back before that podcast.
2:08
Speaker 2: You may remember you had a little podcast called The Wilderness.
2:12
Speaker 3: I did.
2:12
Speaker 2: Which was very focused on Arizona, Wisconsin, Michigan. You even
2:17
Speaker 2: went to Florida, if I recall correctly. Yet you ignored.
2:21
Speaker 1: Dan, I only had money for four focus groups.
2:23
Speaker 4: Yeah.
2:24
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you made choices, and those choices included ignoring
2:30
Speaker 2: the state of North Carolina. Not only have I adopted
2:33
Speaker 2: North Carolina, it is a Pfeiffer family project because in 2008,
2:38
Speaker 2: Hallie Pfeiffer was an organizer in North Carolina when Barack
2:41
Speaker 2: Obama won the state and turned it blue for the
2:43
Speaker 2: first time in a very long time. Here is why
2:46
Speaker 2: I think people should pick North Carolina. Look, adopt any state.
2:50
Speaker 2: We will take whatever states get us to 270, but
2:53
Speaker 2: here is why North Carolina– is important. It's a three-first state.
2:57
Speaker 2: It is a state where you can defeat Donald Trump,
3:00
Speaker 2: elect Cal Cunningham, and rip the gavel from Mitch McConnell's
3:04
Speaker 2: ghoulish claws, and flip the state legislature towards the Democrats.
3:10
Speaker 2: Reason number two, the Google North Carolina Republicans. They make
3:16
Speaker 2: the folks in Wisconsin look like the Lincoln Project. They
3:19
Speaker 2: are on the forefront of rigging democracy and stealing elections.
3:23
Speaker 2: And these people should be nowhere near power. And so
3:27
Speaker 2: we have to do that. And this is a state
3:30
Speaker 2: that I think maybe most importantly, above all other reasons,
3:33
Speaker 2: except the one that Hallie used to work there, is
3:36
Speaker 2: that this is a state that is entirely about mobilization.
3:41
Speaker 2: There are more than enough unregistered Democratic voters in North
3:45
Speaker 2: Carolina to win the election. So if there are sufficient volunteers,
3:48
Speaker 2: sufficient activism, we can win this state. That is the
3:52
Speaker 2: path Obama used in 2008. We can win it again.
3:55
Speaker 2: And so join Team North Carolina. You have me. You
3:58
Speaker 2: have Elijah. You have Shaniqua. You have Yale. We have
4:01
Speaker 2: a core group of the best content creators and staff
4:04
Speaker 2: at Crooked. And it's going to be an uphill climb.
4:06
Speaker 2: We don't get enough attention. There's a lot of focus
4:09
Speaker 2: on Florida. And everyone loves Wisconsin. And Arizona was hipster
4:12
Speaker 2: like four months ago, but now it's super mainstream. And
4:14
Speaker 2: so if you want to be on the leading edge
4:16
Speaker 2: of the new emerging Democratic majority in this country. You're
4:20
Speaker 2: going to be under the Team North Carolina.
4:22
Speaker 1: Look, I think you made a lot of compelling arguments there,
4:24
Speaker 1: but none more so than join Team North Carolina because
4:27
Speaker 1: of the content creation.
4:31
Speaker 3: You know what?
4:31
Speaker 2: We live in a meme and video world, and.
4:36
Speaker 2: And have you seen the videos that Elijah's already put together?
4:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you guys follow Elijah on Twitter, he's really
4:41
Speaker 1: been spending most of his workday.
4:45
Speaker 3: Making.
4:46
Speaker 2: Defeating Donald Trump? Are you going to dock his pay?
4:50
Speaker 1: But also, look, if you want to flip the state
4:53
Speaker 1: that once made Joe Arpaio sheriff, you know, come join
4:57
Speaker 1: Team Arizona. That's my pitch.
4:59
Speaker 2: Hey, look, I'm not against winning Arizona.
5:01
Speaker 1: No, I'm not against winning North Carolina. But I would
5:04
Speaker 1: like people on my team.
5:05
Speaker 3: And in fact.
5:06
Speaker 1: You know, many, many, let's just say many people are
5:08
Speaker 1: saying that many volunteers have signed up for Team Arizona.
5:10
Speaker 2: Anyway, have the Arizona Democratic establishment rushed to team?
5:15
Speaker 1: Look, Kirsten Sinema, Mark Kelly, if you're out there, I'm
5:18
Speaker 1: pretty thirsty on Twitter. I'm trying to get you guys
5:20
Speaker 1: to tweet about this. Haven't heard anything yet. So that's OK.
5:23
Speaker 1: That's OK. This is a grassroots.
5:25
Speaker 2: It's a marathon.
5:26
Speaker 1: This is a grassroots movement. All right, anyway, go to votesaveamerica.com
5:31
Speaker 1: slash adopt, pick a state, and we will send you
5:33
Speaker 1: specific calls to action that you can do right from
5:35
Speaker 1: your couch between now and November. It is super important.
5:38
Speaker 1: This is what you can do to help win this election.
5:41
Speaker 1: All right, let's get to the news. As of Wednesday,
5:45
Speaker 1: just over three months into this pandemic, more than 100,000
5:49
Speaker 1: Americans have died from COVID-19, easily one of the worst
5:54
Speaker 1: tragedies our country has ever endured We have already lost
5:58
Speaker 1: more people to COVID than we did in Vietnam, the
6:00
Speaker 1: Persian Gulf, Iraq and Afghanistan combined. It's stunning. Many media
6:07
Speaker 1: outlets and elected officials from both parties marked the grim
6:11
Speaker 1: milestone in some way yesterday on Wednesday. Here's a video
6:16
Speaker 1: clip from former Vice President Joe Biden.
6:18
Speaker 4: There are moments in our history so grim, so heartrending
6:23
Speaker 4: that they're forever fixed in each of our hearts. a
6:26
Speaker 4: shared grief. Today is one of those moments. 100,000 lives
6:32
Speaker 4: have now been lost to this virus. To all of
6:35
Speaker 4: you who are hurting so badly, I'm so sorry for
6:39
Speaker 4: your loss. This nation grieves with you. Take some solace
6:44
Speaker 4: from the fact we all grieve with you.
6:48
Speaker 1: So we don't have a Trump clip because he didn't
6:52
Speaker 1: say a word on Wednesday about the fact that 100,000
6:54
Speaker 1: Americans have died. Instead, he played golf over the weekend,
6:59
Speaker 1: falsely accused Joe Scarborough of murder, falsely accused Barack Obama
7:03
Speaker 1: of spying on him, falsely accused Democrats of trying to
7:06
Speaker 1: steal the election, falsely claimed that vote by mail is fraudulent,
7:09
Speaker 1: falsely accused Twitter of interfering in the election because they
7:11
Speaker 1: fact checked his claim about vote by mail. retweeted some
7:15
Speaker 1: truly vile insults about Nancy Pelosi, Stacey Abrams, and Hillary Clinton,
7:19
Speaker 1: celebrated the news that the Atlantic is laying off 20%
7:21
Speaker 1: of its staff, and that the Dow hit 25,000. And
7:24
Speaker 1: this morning, on Thursday, he shared a tweet where a
7:26
Speaker 1: Republican county commissioner in New Mexico said, quote, the only
7:30
Speaker 1: good Democrat is a dead Democrat. So Dan, do you
7:33
Speaker 1: think that the president has struck the right tone for
7:36
Speaker 1: the moment? I.
7:42
Speaker 1: I know people like to analyze tone.
7:48
Speaker 2: I would say this to you right now, John, the
7:50
Speaker 2: optics are not.
7:50
Speaker 1: The optics are not good. Like you read.
7:54
Speaker 2: That completely insane list of things and your choices are
7:59
Speaker 2: laughing and crying. And it is just stunning. And it's,
8:07
Speaker 2: But there are two things that are stunning at the
8:09
Speaker 2: same time. And I think the scale of the challenges
8:14
Speaker 2: are such that they're hard to actually grapple with in
8:17
Speaker 2: a real way, which is one, you went through the
8:19
Speaker 2: numbers that 100,000 Americans have died in a few months.
8:24
Speaker 2: And at the exact same time that that national tragedy
8:28
Speaker 2: and a preventable national tragedy happened, the person who is
8:31
Speaker 2: our president is someone who not for one second has
8:36
Speaker 2: seemed to think about the scale of that tragedy, has
8:38
Speaker 2: tried to heal the nation, has wrestled with the idea
8:43
Speaker 2: that some of the decisions he made or did not
8:45
Speaker 2: make contributed to that. He has only sought to elude
8:51
Speaker 2: blame for the problem that he allowed to happen. And
8:54
Speaker 2: for everything else we talk about in this election and
8:57
Speaker 2: healthcare and taxes and civil rights and all the other
9:00
Speaker 2: important issues on the ballot, what ultimately comes down to
9:02
Speaker 2: is Presidents are the head of state of this country,
9:06
Speaker 2: and we are going to face tragedies again. And we
9:09
Speaker 2: should just be very, very clear that it is highly likely,
9:12
Speaker 2: based on the history of pandemics like this and the
9:16
Speaker 2: pace at which vaccines are usually developed, that the person
9:20
Speaker 2: who was sworn in in January of 2021 will be
9:22
Speaker 2: president at a time in which coronavirus still exists. You
9:25
Speaker 2: can either have someone who had a message like the
9:28
Speaker 2: one Joe Biden had, who clearly, in a heart-wrenching and
9:31
Speaker 2: raw way, was dealing with what is actually happening in
9:34
Speaker 2: this country. And you have someone who, as opposed to
9:37
Speaker 2: trying to solve the problem, is simply trying to distract
9:39
Speaker 2: people from the problem.
9:41
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I found Biden's video moving and powerful,
9:47
Speaker 1: not just because of the particular words or Biden himself,
9:50
Speaker 1: but I guess I hadn't realized how much, just as
9:53
Speaker 1: an American, I wanted a leader to talk to us
9:57
Speaker 1: during a difficult time. And in the past, every time
10:03
Speaker 1: the country's been through a tragedy, whether you agreed with
10:07
Speaker 1: the president in power or not, whether you're from the
10:09
Speaker 1: same party or not, you could want that person out
10:12
Speaker 1: of office immediately. But at the very least, the president
10:15
Speaker 1: would step up and speak to the nation and comfort
10:20
Speaker 1: the nation and offer some solace and remind us that
10:23
Speaker 1: we are one country and that we have more in
10:26
Speaker 1: common than that which divides us. And it was, you know,
10:33
Speaker 1: the first thing to be really sad about is obviously 100,000
10:37
Speaker 1: Americans dying. And sort of a second order thing is
10:42
Speaker 1: just the fact that we've lost this sort of sense
10:46
Speaker 1: of national leadership that sort of brings us together as
10:50
Speaker 1: a country during these really difficult times. And, you know,
10:55
Speaker 1: it makes you pretty enraged that we have a president
10:58
Speaker 1: like this. Why do you think he seems even more
11:03
Speaker 1: unhinged than usual? Or I guess I should say, do
11:06
Speaker 1: you think he seems even more unhinged than usual? I mean,
11:09
Speaker 1: even some of his right wing media pals at the
11:12
Speaker 1: Washington Examiner, the Wall Street Journal editorial board, criticized the
11:17
Speaker 1: scarborough thing the idea that in the midst of all
11:20
Speaker 1: this he's been on this like multi-day rampage spreading some
11:26
Speaker 1: deranged conspiracy theory about a cable news host um that
11:32
Speaker 1: just has no basis in reality whatsoever and he just
11:35
Speaker 1: won't give it up like what is going on with.
11:37
Speaker 2: Him i think just to be so people have the
11:41
Speaker 2: information they need we should explain why the Scarborough conspiracy
11:46
Speaker 2: theory is false and what the facts are, which is
11:48
Speaker 2: that when Joe Scarborough was serving in Congress many years ago,
11:51
Speaker 2: he had a 28-year-old intern who died in the office
11:54
Speaker 2: from a head injury. The medical examiner determined that the
11:59
Speaker 2: woman passed out and hit her head due to an
12:01
Speaker 2: undiagnosed heart condition. The law enforcement accepted that explanation, the
12:07
Speaker 2: family accepted that explanation, and we've moved on. This has
12:10
Speaker 2: been a conspiracy theory theory that has been swirling on
12:12
Speaker 2: the nether reason to the internet for a long time.
12:15
Speaker 2: And Donald Trump, because he saw it in his political
12:17
Speaker 2: interest or to deal with the grievance of being criticized
12:21
Speaker 2: for his performance as president, decided to use the presidential
12:25
Speaker 2: bully pulpit to communicate this to millions of people without
12:27
Speaker 2: any regard for the family of the woman who passed away.
12:32
Speaker 1: I just, I mean, I'm glad, I'm glad. Thank you for,
12:35
Speaker 1: you know, providing all the facts about that. So people know,
12:37
Speaker 1: but it's just like, again, it is, You know, from
12:41
Speaker 1: the day that Donald Trump started running for president until
12:44
Speaker 1: maybe the outbreak of the pandemic, we talk about these little,
12:47
Speaker 1: these tangents, these crazy conspiracy theories of Trump's, you know,
12:52
Speaker 1: every time we have a podcast. Now, as we're sitting
12:56
Speaker 1: here looking at the fact that 100,000 Americans have died
12:58
Speaker 1: over the last three months, it just seems even more
13:01
Speaker 1: bizarre and deranged that he continues to talk about this
13:06
Speaker 1: shit while the nation is going through one of its
13:09
Speaker 1: worst crises in history. I do understand from the Trump campaigns,
13:13
Speaker 1: just from a pure political perspective, they have decided we
13:16
Speaker 1: want to pretend the pandemic doesn't exist anymore. We don't
13:18
Speaker 1: want to talk about it because it's not helping Donald
13:20
Speaker 1: Trump because people think that he fucked it up. We
13:23
Speaker 1: want to focus on reopening and the economy and Trump's
13:27
Speaker 1: going to be the leader of the recovery, blah, blah, blah.
13:30
Speaker 1: But they can't even focus on that message because every
13:33
Speaker 1: day he just goes off on 10 other tangents on
13:37
Speaker 1: Twitter like I just recited. And I'm just, I guess
13:41
Speaker 1: he's just incapable of a message. Is he just extra angry? Like,
13:45
Speaker 1: I don't understand it.
13:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, look, I think the behavior is the same, but
13:51
Speaker 2: the backdrop has changed.
13:52
Speaker 3: Right. Right.
13:54
Speaker 1: This has not changed him in any way. This crisis
13:56
Speaker 1: has literally not changed him a bit.
14:00
Speaker 2: If we were to go back and read the outlines
14:04
Speaker 2: of Pod Save America pods for the last three and
14:05
Speaker 2: a half years, a large number of them begin with,
14:10
Speaker 2: some period of Trump insanity on Twitter, right? A rainy
14:14
Speaker 2: weekend where you guys had to go through all the
14:16
Speaker 2: tweets that he sent when he wasn't golfing, his like,
14:21
Speaker 2: you know, on a Monday pod, him going crazy and
14:24
Speaker 2: us talking about like, this happens all the time. But
14:26
Speaker 2: it feels different when you have 40 million Americans losing
14:29
Speaker 2: their job and 100,000 Americans dead than in normal times.
14:32
Speaker 3: Yeah.
14:33
Speaker 2: Even still, even having said that, I still think as
14:36
Speaker 2: a nation and a political culture and a media culture,
14:39
Speaker 2: we are still way too okay with this. I tried
14:43
Speaker 2: to describe how we go about life in America with
14:48
Speaker 2: a president like this, who is completely deranged, deeply dangerous,
14:54
Speaker 2: without a doubt, one of the worst people in America.
14:57
Speaker 2: He is just a horrible individual, cares about nothing other
15:01
Speaker 2: than himself. The best way I could come up to
15:04
Speaker 2: describe it is that we are uncomfortably numb. We all
15:07
Speaker 2: know this is bad. We know Put aside the MAGA
15:10
Speaker 2: hat-wearing base, the majority of the country, even people who
15:13
Speaker 2: support Trump, are uncomfortable with his behavior. But the short-term
15:18
Speaker 2: danger of him being president, the long-term consequences of the
15:20
Speaker 2: fact that someone like Trump could become president are too
15:23
Speaker 2: much for us to wrestle with. So even in a pandemic,
15:27
Speaker 2: this is treated as a news story but not sort
15:30
Speaker 2: of the cataclysmic event that it would move people's opinions
15:35
Speaker 2: about who our president is and.
15:38
Speaker 3: What he's doing.
15:39
Speaker 1: You know, when I woke up and saw him share
15:41
Speaker 1: the tweet about that asshole in New Mexico who said
15:44
Speaker 1: the only good Democrat is a dead Democrat, who, you know,
15:46
Speaker 1: and it's of course, this is all classic Trump. And
15:48
Speaker 1: the guy was like, oh, I didn't mean that literally.
15:51
Speaker 1: And then he goes on to say, oh, but I
15:53
Speaker 1: would give Gretchen Whitmer and Ralph Northam a choice, either
15:58
Speaker 1: hanging or firing squad, you know, so whatever. But like
16:04
Speaker 1: I saw that, I'm like, oh, this will be the
16:05
Speaker 1: thing that like people will be talking about this. This
16:07
Speaker 1: is going to dominate Twitter. And I'm like scrolling, I'm
16:10
Speaker 1: reading other news stories. And, you know, people are mentioning
16:12
Speaker 1: it here and there, but it's not a big deal.
16:14
Speaker 1: And I'm thinking like, you know, we went through the
16:18
Speaker 1: tragedy in El Paso right before the midterms in 2018.
16:23
Speaker 1: Sort of, you know, we saw pipe bombs sent to
16:26
Speaker 1: Democratic leaders, violence that was inspired by the perpetrators of
16:31
Speaker 1: violence said they were inspired by some of the things
16:33
Speaker 1: that Trump said. And, you Like we made a bigger
16:37
Speaker 1: deal of it then and now it's happening again and
16:39
Speaker 1: we're just like, well, we just got to move on
16:41
Speaker 1: to the next thing. Also, you know, he's signing an
16:43
Speaker 1: executive order because he's mad about Twitter and he's going
16:46
Speaker 1: to try to like go after social media companies now.
16:48
Speaker 1: So we have to talk about that too. I mean,
16:51
Speaker 1: I guess the question is like how, what is the
16:53
Speaker 1: most effective message to voters about this kind of behavior?
16:57
Speaker 1: Because there's people like us, a lot of people listening
17:01
Speaker 1: who pay attention to this and get exercised about this
17:04
Speaker 1: every single day. And there's a lot of Americans, most Americans,
17:07
Speaker 1: who are going about their lives, trying to make sure
17:10
Speaker 1: they're healthy and don't get COVID, trying to make sure
17:13
Speaker 1: that they keep their job or get another job if
17:16
Speaker 1: they've lost theirs, trying to put food on the table.
17:19
Speaker 1: How do we talk about this to people who are
17:22
Speaker 1: going to vote in November?
17:25
Speaker 2: We have to make Trump's actions be about Trump. We
17:29
Speaker 2: have to explain that it is a message of Trump first,
17:31
Speaker 2: America last. That at a time in which Americans are dying...
17:35
Speaker 2: People are losing their job. He's not focused on preventing
17:38
Speaker 2: the spread of the pandemic or fixing the economy. He
17:41
Speaker 2: is focused entirely on rewarding himself, getting reelected and punishing
17:45
Speaker 2: his enemies. That he is always Trump first, always America last,
17:49
Speaker 2: which has two benefits. One, it helps create motivation for
17:52
Speaker 2: the behaviors that he's demonstrating because simply etiquette violations or
17:57
Speaker 2: not being a normal president or saying untoward things is
18:02
Speaker 2: not in and of itself a powerful reelection message. What
18:07
Speaker 2: you have to do is you have to demonstrate how
18:09
Speaker 2: it affects people's lives. And we could be doing all
18:11
Speaker 2: these other things, except we have a president who wakes
18:13
Speaker 2: up every day thinking about himself, not thinking about the country.
18:16
Speaker 1: If he suddenly becomes a little more disciplined, or at
18:20
Speaker 1: least if his campaign becomes disciplined in the messages that
18:24
Speaker 1: they're putting out there through advertising, do you think it's
18:27
Speaker 1: possible that they can achieve their strategic goal of changing
18:31
Speaker 1: the narrative from the pandemic to sort of this economic recovery.
18:36
Speaker 1: There was a story in Politico about how some Democrats
18:38
Speaker 1: are worried about if we do have this V-shaped recovery
18:42
Speaker 1: because we have massive job losses in the spring, massive
18:47
Speaker 1: contraction of the economy. But then as the economy reopens,
18:53
Speaker 1: maybe we bounce back. And so you have GDP numbers
18:56
Speaker 1: and jobs numbers that seem like they are like the
18:59
Speaker 1: biggest job growth that we've seen, the biggest GDP growth
19:02
Speaker 1: that we've seen, even if it doesn't bring us back
19:05
Speaker 1: anywhere close to where we were when the pandemic hit.
19:08
Speaker 1: But just the numbers themselves and Trump's touting of those
19:11
Speaker 1: numbers would somehow boost his reelection chances. Like, what did
19:15
Speaker 1: you think of that story? And also, do you think
19:17
Speaker 1: that Trump's going to be able to sort of change
19:19
Speaker 1: the narrative and change the focus, people's focus, over the
19:23
Speaker 1: next four or five months?
19:26
Speaker 3: I mean.
19:27
Speaker 2: As we know, things get flushed down the memory hole
19:29
Speaker 2: very quickly. Now, this is a much, much bigger deal
19:33
Speaker 2: than anything that we've ever put to that test before.
19:35
Speaker 2: This is not a brief government shutdown. This is not
19:37
Speaker 2: even impeachment.
19:37
Speaker 3: It is a.
19:40
Speaker 2: National crisis unlike anything we've seen.
19:43
Speaker 3: In a century.
19:44
Speaker 2: But if we are in a situation where you have.
19:50
Speaker 2: A resurgence of the virus in the fall, it kind
19:53
Speaker 2: of gets shut down again, that obviously is going to
19:55
Speaker 2: dictate the terms of this. I read that story and
19:59
Speaker 2: I went into it thinking I should panic, but I
20:02
Speaker 2: adhere to our adage of worrying and not panicking. And
20:05
Speaker 2: so a couple of things about it. One, we know
20:08
Speaker 2: from having worked in the White House for President Obama
20:12
Speaker 2: in 2009 and 2010, where we had some months with
20:15
Speaker 2: large job increases because of the Recovery Act. And it
20:21
Speaker 2: also happened to fall at the time in which the
20:23
Speaker 2: Commerce Department was hiring census workers, which is a temporary
20:26
Speaker 2: inflation of the jobs numbers. And those numbers did not
20:30
Speaker 2: change people's impressions of the economy at all, because they're
20:33
Speaker 2: looking at it from their personal perspective, right? Despite what
20:36
Speaker 2: You know, either the stock market or some jobs number
20:39
Speaker 2: says you're living the reality of it. And the fear
20:42
Speaker 2: and anxiety you have for your family and your job
20:45
Speaker 2: certainly outweighs some headline you may or may not see.
20:47
Speaker 2: And certainly in this media environment, it's going to be
20:48
Speaker 2: harder to see that. Now, my caveat to that and
20:54
Speaker 2: the reason why I do worry is we know, as
20:56
Speaker 2: we talked about last week, that the only thing that
20:59
Speaker 2: is propping Trump up is his economic approval rate. That
21:02
Speaker 2: voters give him credit on the economy that we do
21:04
Speaker 2: not believe he deserves. in any way, shape or form,
21:07
Speaker 2: because I do not think someone should go on Mount
21:09
Speaker 2: Rushmore for not fucking up Barack Obama's economy until he
21:12
Speaker 2: did fuck it up. But I think the way to like,
21:17
Speaker 2: we can't, we don't know what's going to happen in
21:18
Speaker 2: the fall. We don't know what the number is going
21:19
Speaker 2: to look like, but the way to limit whatever gains
21:22
Speaker 2: he can have is to define right now what economic
21:26
Speaker 2: recovery means to Trump, like who he's trying to help, right.
21:30
Speaker 2: That he is celebrating as his, idiot son Eric Trump
21:34
Speaker 2: did yesterday on the day 100,000 people died, celebrated the
21:36
Speaker 2: Dow Jones getting to 25,000.
21:38
Speaker 3: Right. Right.
21:39
Speaker 2: So that this is about him helping big business corporations,
21:44
Speaker 2: the wealthy and not average everyday people. And so if
21:47
Speaker 2: you can define who Trump is fighting for and who
21:49
Speaker 2: Biden's fighting for, then you will fare better in an
21:53
Speaker 2: environment where Trump has some headlines or information that he
21:58
Speaker 2: can weaponize to make a a case that he is
22:01
Speaker 2: sort of leading some sort of comeback, even if we
22:03
Speaker 2: know that's bullshit.
22:04
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think the central question of the election has
22:05
Speaker 1: to be what kind of recovery do you want? Do
22:07
Speaker 1: you want a recovery that benefits Trump and his friends
22:10
Speaker 1: and Mitch McConnell and his friends? Or do you want
22:13
Speaker 1: a recovery that benefits you, not only financially, but also
22:17
Speaker 1: keeps you healthy, keeps you healthy, safe, and with a
22:20
Speaker 1: job that pays the bills? And that's the case that
22:24
Speaker 1: Biden and the Democrats have to make. All right, let's
22:34
Speaker 1: talk about what Trump's opponent has been up to. Joe
22:36
Speaker 1: Biden made his first public appearance in two months when
22:39
Speaker 1: he visited a veterans park in Delaware for Memorial Day. Biden,
22:42
Speaker 1: his wife Jill, and his staff all wore masks to
22:45
Speaker 1: the wreath-laying ceremony. The former vice president, whose late son
22:48
Speaker 1: Beau served in the military, told reporters, quote, Never forget
22:52
Speaker 1: the sacrifices that these men and women made. Never, ever forget.
22:56
Speaker 1: Later that day, Trump retweeted Fox pundit Brit Hume mocking
22:59
Speaker 1: Biden for wearing a mask and then said to a reporter, quote,
23:02
Speaker 1: He was standing outside with his wife, perfect conditions, perfect weather.
23:06
Speaker 1: And so I thought it was very unusual that he
23:08
Speaker 1: had one on. He also shared a tweet this morning
23:11
Speaker 1: that said the image of Biden in a mask, quote,
23:13
Speaker 1: endorses culture of silence, slavery, and social death.
23:16
Speaker 3: The fuck?
23:17
Speaker 1: Biden, in his first in-person interview since the pandemic began,
23:21
Speaker 1: told CNN's Dana Bash that Trump is an, quote, absolute
23:25
Speaker 1: fool and that his opposition to masks is macho stuff
23:28
Speaker 1: that's costing people's lives.
23:31
Speaker 2: All right.
23:32
Speaker 1: Before we get to the mask issue, what did you
23:34
Speaker 1: think of Biden's decision to leave his home and do
23:36
Speaker 1: a Memorial Day event? Should he do more things like this?
23:40
Speaker 2: I mean, it was it was great to see him
23:42
Speaker 2: out there. I think it got tremendous amount of attention.
23:46
Speaker 2: It seems like the fact that he had been in
23:49
Speaker 2: his house or a narrative around him being in his
23:51
Speaker 2: house and that he went out and did it and
23:53
Speaker 2: wore a mask.
23:53
Speaker 4: Right.
23:54
Speaker 2: All of that created serious conversation, I think. This is
23:58
Speaker 2: where the campaign is headed, which is to try to
24:00
Speaker 2: find things to do that are consistent with the guidelines
24:05
Speaker 2: in Delaware where Biden lives and the safety of not
24:09
Speaker 2: just the candidate, but the Secret Service, the staff and
24:11
Speaker 2: everyone who has to travel with a presidential nominee. And
24:18
Speaker 2: I think we will, I don't know of any specific plans,
24:20
Speaker 2: but I think we will begin to see some more
24:21
Speaker 2: things like that. But it's going to be limited given
24:24
Speaker 2: the constraints at which he's under. But it obviously will
24:26
Speaker 2: ramp up over time.
24:27
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, look, and in Delaware, they're starting to
24:30
Speaker 1: relax some of the social distancing regulations that they've put
24:36
Speaker 1: in place, some of the restrictions. And so has every
24:39
Speaker 1: state at this point. You know, now I think all
24:41
Speaker 1: 50 states have some tentative plans for reopening. I think
24:45
Speaker 1: in Delaware, Governor Carney announced on Tuesday that outdoor gatherings
24:48
Speaker 1: of up to 250 people are allowed with precautions, face covering,
24:54
Speaker 1: social distancing, etc., So I do think it's important that,
24:58
Speaker 1: you know, and I'm sure the Biden team is working
24:59
Speaker 1: on this, but like to figure out, you know, public
25:02
Speaker 1: events that are not in his house that are creative
25:06
Speaker 1: in the sense that they show Biden out on the
25:09
Speaker 1: campaign trail, but also make sure to protect him and
25:12
Speaker 1: the people around him, like you said.
25:14
Speaker 3: All right.
25:14
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the masks.
25:16
Speaker 3: So.
25:18
Speaker 1: The latest Navigator tracking poll shows that nearly 75% of
25:22
Speaker 1: Americans are in favor of wearing masks, including more than
25:25
Speaker 1: half of Republicans. Two-thirds of Americans disapprove of Trump's refusal
25:30
Speaker 1: to wear a mask, and the vast majority of people
25:32
Speaker 1: in both parties want their elected officials to wear masks inside. So,
25:38
Speaker 1: why is Trump trying so hard to make this some
25:41
Speaker 1: kind of polarized culture war? Is there a strategy here?
25:45
Speaker 1: Is he just being an asshole? What do you think?
25:50
Speaker 2: Well, I think probably both. So I think on the
25:55
Speaker 2: asshole front, I think he just has this natural instinct
26:00
Speaker 2: for trying to find wedge issues. He knows he does
26:04
Speaker 2: better in a period of time of division. He succeeds
26:06
Speaker 2: through polarization. And so he's trying to create this wedge
26:12
Speaker 2: between people who don't want the virus and scientists and
26:15
Speaker 2: local officials and his voters. It's not really clear. Now,
26:20
Speaker 2: I'm not a political expert on any level, but I'm
26:24
Speaker 2: pretty sure that on a 75-18% issue, you do not
26:28
Speaker 2: want to choose the 18% side. But that's where he is.
26:32
Speaker 2: I think to the extent that there's a strategy, and
26:34
Speaker 2: I always think Trump's decisions are more instinctual than intellectual.
26:40
Speaker 2: I think that's probably it. Apparently, obviously, to say an
26:42
Speaker 2: instinctual may be giving him too much credit. But if
26:46
Speaker 2: you are trying to pretend like the virus either never
26:51
Speaker 2: happened or is not here, if you believe you need
26:54
Speaker 2: to return to normal to be able to get the
26:58
Speaker 2: economy going and return to your really comfortable 44% average
27:03
Speaker 2: approval rating, then having people wear masks is is a
27:08
Speaker 2: constant reminder of potentially your failure to prevent the virus
27:14
Speaker 2: from spreading as it did. And so I think that's
27:16
Speaker 2: why he naturally does not want people to be wearing
27:19
Speaker 2: masks around him, because it reminds perhaps himself of his failure,
27:23
Speaker 2: but also reminds the public of his failure.
27:26
Speaker 1: I was looking for some Trump ally official to actually
27:30
Speaker 1: give an explanation of why he keeps shitting on mask
27:34
Speaker 1: wearing and why this has become a fucking thing on
27:36
Speaker 1: Fox News and all the rest of the wackos on
27:39
Speaker 1: the right. Eric Beach, who is the co-chairman of one
27:42
Speaker 1: of Trump's super PACs, said this to The Washington Post, quote,
27:47
Speaker 1: There is this capitulation that Biden seems to have. Believe
27:51
Speaker 1: the science. Don't question anything and don't show any leadership.
27:54
Speaker 1: Whereas Trump understands that we should question science and should
27:58
Speaker 1: question data. I mean, that's it. Biden, we are criticizing
28:06
Speaker 1: Biden because he believes in science. And Trump knows what
28:11
Speaker 1: real leadership is not believing in science.
28:14
Speaker 2: Do you think Trump and Eric Beach, whoever he may be,
28:19
Speaker 2: questions gravity?
28:22
Speaker 1: A real leader? says to themselves, is the world really round?
28:29
Speaker 3: Yes.
28:30
Speaker 2: President Kyrie Irving up here.
28:34
Speaker 1: So, I mean, on a sort of the broader culture
28:37
Speaker 1: war sense, which the culture war thing, by the way,
28:39
Speaker 1: gets me annoyed because the way the media portrays it
28:41
Speaker 1: is that everyone is automatically polarized. Everyone is already divided
28:45
Speaker 1: by a culture where everything's left, right, red, blue, blah, blah, blah.
28:48
Speaker 1: They love this. But we're not divided over masks. Republican
28:52
Speaker 1: voters are the only ones divided over whether to wear masks.
28:56
Speaker 1: Democrats are fully supportive. Independents are fully supportive. Half the
29:00
Speaker 1: Republican Party is fully supportive. You know, the very, very
29:03
Speaker 1: conservative governor of North Dakota... made an emotional plea for
29:08
Speaker 1: people to wear masks. Mike DeWine, governor of Ohio, has
29:11
Speaker 1: been making a plea. There are Republican officials out there.
29:13
Speaker 1: The only people that are divided about this right now
29:16
Speaker 1: are the Republican Party, though of course Donald Trump will
29:18
Speaker 1: try to make this an issue where your allegiance to
29:21
Speaker 1: the Republican Party is dependent on whether you approve or
29:24
Speaker 1: disapprove of masks. But that's the whole point. He tries
29:27
Speaker 1: to polarize these things. We are not naturally divided as
29:30
Speaker 1: a country. We are not naturally polarized as a country.
29:33
Speaker 1: We are polarized because we have a president that tries
29:36
Speaker 1: to polarize us every single day. And there's another party
29:39
Speaker 1: that is not trying to do that, that is actively
29:42
Speaker 1: trying to make sure that we all do something that
29:44
Speaker 1: would protect us. And there are Republican officials who are
29:47
Speaker 1: trying to do that as well. So that's the polarization thing.
29:50
Speaker 1: But Axios had a piece the other day where they
29:53
Speaker 1: said that this is part of a You know, Trump
29:56
Speaker 1: is out and about. Masks be damned. Watch for plenty
29:59
Speaker 1: more mask free outings from Trump hyping the reopening of
30:02
Speaker 1: the economy and avoiding discussions of social distancing and death counts.
30:05
Speaker 1: And watch for a visual contrast between the two party
30:08
Speaker 1: conventions in August. Two sources close to the president say
30:11
Speaker 1: they hope to have a boisterous live crowd. They want
30:13
Speaker 1: to have more people there physically than at the Democratic convention.
30:17
Speaker 1: So you can see what Trump wants to set up
30:19
Speaker 1: for the fall, right? He is the guy who is
30:21
Speaker 1: championing the opening of the economy. He's going to go
30:25
Speaker 1: and have his rallies with his big crowds. He's strong
30:28
Speaker 1: and tough and he doesn't worry about any virus. And
30:30
Speaker 1: he wants people to just live their lives and be
30:33
Speaker 1: normal and stuff like that. And there's weak, cowardly Joe
30:36
Speaker 1: Biden and the Democrats hiding indoors. doing their virtual events,
30:41
Speaker 1: not doing a rally. They want you to stay home.
30:43
Speaker 1: They don't want you to live their lives. That seems
30:45
Speaker 1: to be the contrast he wants to set up for
30:48
Speaker 1: the fall. What do you think about that? Can it
30:52
Speaker 1: be effective?
30:54
Speaker 2: I mean, can we just stipulate that even if you
30:57
Speaker 2: looked at this, as Trump does, through his pure self-interest,
31:00
Speaker 2: which we presume is centered around getting reelected, there is
31:04
Speaker 2: no dispute to this. The more people who wear masks,
31:06
Speaker 2: the less spread of the virus is. The less spread
31:09
Speaker 2: of the virus there is, the more economic activity. The
31:11
Speaker 2: more economic activity, the faster the economy grows and the
31:14
Speaker 2: more jobs are created. The more economic growth in jobs,
31:17
Speaker 2: the better chance Trump has of being reelected. Yet he
31:20
Speaker 2: has decided to say, nope, because I think either I
31:24
Speaker 2: look funny in a mask or I'm going to be
31:26
Speaker 2: some sort of culture warrior, even though that's a complete
31:29
Speaker 2: misuse of the term culture war. Media, great job. that
31:33
Speaker 2: he's going to make it more likely that we have
31:35
Speaker 2: a resurgence in the fall, which makes it more likely
31:38
Speaker 2: that he will be defeated. The strategy could have used
31:40
Speaker 2: a little bit of scrutiny from either the Trump campaign
31:43
Speaker 2: or the reporters writing about it because it makes almost
31:45
Speaker 2: no sense. But to the extent that buried in the
31:49
Speaker 2: absurdity that the Trump campaign has put forward is the
31:52
Speaker 2: idea that they are trying to say Biden is old
31:56
Speaker 2: and frail and not up to the job. That is
31:59
Speaker 2: a huge part of the messaging from Trump, his Twitter account,
32:04
Speaker 2: Fox News, which is his Twitter account on TV. And
32:08
Speaker 2: the one way to do that is a contrast of
32:11
Speaker 2: images of Trump in factories or in front of crowds
32:13
Speaker 2: and Biden in a mask in his basement or whatever else.
32:17
Speaker 2: I don't think the Biden campaign is going to allow
32:18
Speaker 2: that to be the exact contrast, but they're trying to
32:21
Speaker 2: show that Trump is up to the task and that
32:24
Speaker 2: even if you have questions about Trump, Biden is definitely
32:27
Speaker 2: not up to the task of getting the country out.
32:30
Speaker 3: Of this mess.
32:30
Speaker 2: And they're trying to, which is not bad political strategy,
32:34
Speaker 2: I think it's a tough task, is to flip the
32:37
Speaker 2: crisis on its head and turn it into an asset
32:40
Speaker 2: for Trump as opposed to a weakness. Yeah.
32:44
Speaker 1: And all I would say is, you know, Republicans want
32:47
Speaker 1: the frame to be, you know, Trump wants everything open,
32:51
Speaker 1: Democrats want everything closed. And then they want to force
32:54
Speaker 1: Democrats to either say, yes, things should be closed because
32:57
Speaker 1: we want to keep people safe, or No, we're opening
33:00
Speaker 1: some stuff, but they want the frame to be open-closed.
33:03
Speaker 1: And I think Democrats need to pull it out of
33:05
Speaker 1: that frame and say that Trump wants to do nothing
33:09
Speaker 1: about the crisis except things that help his reelection. He
33:13
Speaker 1: has no plan. He has no plan for jobs. He
33:15
Speaker 1: has no plan to stop the spread of the virus.
33:17
Speaker 1: He has no plan to put you back to work.
33:18
Speaker 1: He has no plan to help you in any way.
33:21
Speaker 1: He has one plan, and that plan is to get reelected.
33:24
Speaker 1: Democrats want to keep you safe, keep you healthy, put
33:28
Speaker 1: you back to work. Make sure you can pay your bills.
33:30
Speaker 1: We want to do something about this crisis that is
33:33
Speaker 1: both a health crisis and an economic crisis. He doesn't
33:35
Speaker 1: want to do anything. And he has proved that he
33:37
Speaker 1: hasn't done anything yet, which is why we're still in
33:39
Speaker 1: the mess that we're in. So I just think it's
33:41
Speaker 1: like we can't let it be a frame of they're open,
33:44
Speaker 1: we're closed, which, as you saw from the lazy reporting
33:47
Speaker 1: on this, the media is very, you know, they're willing
33:50
Speaker 1: to like buy into that frame that it's red, blue America,
33:53
Speaker 1: culture war, masks, no masks. You can see how the
33:55
Speaker 1: media is going to eat this up. And I think
33:57
Speaker 1: we're going to have to work harder to sort of
33:59
Speaker 1: pull it out of that frame.
34:01
Speaker 2: I agree with everything you said except for one addendum,
34:03
Speaker 2: which I think we should give Trump two plans. Get reelected.
34:07
Speaker 2: Help his wealthy friends and corporations. Because I think the
34:10
Speaker 2: public assumes with some reason that every politician wants to
34:14
Speaker 2: get reelected. So that's not necessarily a deficit. But if
34:18
Speaker 2: you can point out the plutocratic economic part of this,
34:20
Speaker 2: I think that also will help.
34:21
Speaker 3: That's right. That's right.
34:22
Speaker 2: But the point of that is that requires Democrats to
34:24
Speaker 2: also have a plan. a specific plan for Rio.
34:27
Speaker 3: Yes, it does.
34:28
Speaker 2: I have no doubt that the Biden campaign is working
34:31
Speaker 2: on somewhere, but plan always beats no plan, right? And
34:34
Speaker 2: currently we're in a no plan versus no plan world.
34:37
Speaker 2: And so we need a plan.
34:38
Speaker 3: Yeah.
34:39
Speaker 1: And when we say plan, you know, we don't mean
34:41
Speaker 1: you're like 20 page policy prescription that's on your website somewhere,
34:44
Speaker 1: like a plan that every voter or at least every
34:48
Speaker 1: organizer can recite to every voter easily. So the Trump
34:55
Speaker 1: campaign is also attacking Biden for comments he made at
34:57
Speaker 1: the end of an interview on The Breakfast Club last
34:59
Speaker 1: Friday with Charlamagne Tha God. He said, quote, if you
35:02
Speaker 1: have a problem figuring out whether you're for me or Trump,
35:05
Speaker 1: then you ain't black. Biden later apologized in a call
35:09
Speaker 1: with black business leaders and told them that he shouldn't
35:11
Speaker 1: have been so, quote, cavalier, saying, quote, I know that
35:14
Speaker 1: the comments have come off like I was taking the
35:16
Speaker 1: African-American vote for granted, but nothing could be further from
35:18
Speaker 1: the truth. I've never, ever done that, and I've earned
35:21
Speaker 1: it every time I've run. Of course, The Trump campaign
35:24
Speaker 1: is already running digital ads and selling you ain't black T-shirts.
35:28
Speaker 1: Very subtle as usual. Dan, what was your reaction to
35:33
Speaker 1: Biden's comments?
35:36
Speaker 2: You know, as someone who has staffed many, many interviews
35:40
Speaker 2: for political candidates and presidents, I don't think I've ever
35:43
Speaker 2: seen someone make a mistake so close to the finish line.
35:49
Speaker 1: I woke up and I heard about it on Twitter
35:51
Speaker 1: and I watched the 18-minute interview and I'm like, wait,
35:53
Speaker 1: where is this? Where is this? And then I'm like,
35:55
Speaker 1: they're leaving. They're ending the interview. I don't see it.
35:57
Speaker 1: Did someone make a mistake? And I was like, oh,
35:58
Speaker 1: there it is. There it is at the very end.
36:01
Speaker 3: Yes.
36:02
Speaker 2: It was after he said bye, he made the mistake.
36:05
Speaker 2: And it was very clearly a mistake. It was obviously
36:08
Speaker 2: the wrong thing to say. I did think as the
36:11
Speaker 2: day went on that you can understand– the media ecosystem
36:18
Speaker 2: incentives that cause some politicians to never apologize, mostly Republican politicians. Now,
36:24
Speaker 2: I want a politician, a president, a presidential candidate who
36:29
Speaker 2: is willing to admit they were wrong and to apologize
36:31
Speaker 2: when they cause offense. So I think that's the right
36:33
Speaker 2: thing to do. But I'm sitting there, this happens, or
36:36
Speaker 2: the Trump campaign puts out the t-shirts, everyone is reacting
36:39
Speaker 2: to it, there's a Twitter swirl. The world kind of
36:43
Speaker 2: moves on a little bit, at least in terms of
36:44
Speaker 2: the online conversation about it. And then I'm holding my
36:47
Speaker 2: phone in my hand, and I get nine news alerts
36:50
Speaker 2: that's like, Biden apologized, Biden apologized, Biden apologized, Biden apologized.
36:53
Speaker 2: And so you see that somehow we live in a
36:57
Speaker 2: world where Biden gets 100 times more coverage than Trump
37:01
Speaker 2: for saying the wrong thing and apologizing than Trump does
37:03
Speaker 2: for saying the wrong thing and never apologizing. And Biden
37:08
Speaker 2: was right to apologize. It is the morally right thing
37:10
Speaker 2: to do, obviously, and in the medium and long term,
37:11
Speaker 2: the politically right thing to do. But it is not treated...
37:15
Speaker 2: the same way or fairly. And there's a real asymmetry
37:18
Speaker 2: in how these things are covered.
37:20
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, it's back to the conversation we've had
37:22
Speaker 1: a million times about like 2016 and how there haven't
37:24
Speaker 1: been many lessons learned from 2016 at all. And I
37:28
Speaker 1: think it is a, we can yell about it and
37:30
Speaker 1: yell about media coverage, but it's going to be a
37:33
Speaker 1: dynamic that we all have to deal with between now
37:36
Speaker 1: and November that anytime Biden makes a mistake, it will
37:40
Speaker 1: be on somewhat of an equal plane as Trump mistakes
37:44
Speaker 1: that are a thousand times worse. But, you know, this
37:48
Speaker 1: goes to why Trump thinks he can benefit politically from this. Like,
37:52
Speaker 1: I think the Trump people know that he's one of
37:56
Speaker 1: the most racist people to ever hold office. I mean,
37:59
Speaker 1: he says racist things 10 times a day. And yet
38:03
Speaker 1: they think this will benefit them politically.
38:07
Speaker 3: Why?
38:07
Speaker 1: What's their strategy here?
38:11
Speaker 3: You know, I.
38:12
Speaker 2: There's a whole bunch of stories that like behind the
38:15
Speaker 2: curtain stories about the Trump campaign effort to court African-American voters.
38:20
Speaker 2: And they're very in-depth. And I think In Fairness of
38:23
Speaker 2: the Reporter is pretty skeptical of both the efficacy and
38:27
Speaker 2: sincerity of these efforts. But they're putting real resources behind this.
38:31
Speaker 2: Like they have a show on the Trump app that
38:34
Speaker 2: is called Black Voices with Katrina Pearson and others. They–
38:38
Speaker 2: There's a lot of merch. They're putting up signs and
38:42
Speaker 2: storefronts in African-American communities. And so they're putting resources behind it.
38:46
Speaker 2: I think the question is, and I think this is
38:47
Speaker 2: true for the vast majority of Republican Party efforts to
38:51
Speaker 2: court black voters, is are they trying to get more
38:59
Speaker 2: African-Americans to vote for them? Or are they trying to
39:01
Speaker 2: convince white moderates who are uncomfortable with Trump's racism that
39:05
Speaker 2: he's not as racist as they might think? The question
39:07
Speaker 2: isn't the strategy, it's what the target audience is. And
39:12
Speaker 2: so I think that is how to analyze this necessarily.
39:16
Speaker 1: I also think they don't necessarily think they can get
39:20
Speaker 1: a lot of black voters to cast their ballots for Trump.
39:24
Speaker 1: But they do think that they can get some small
39:27
Speaker 1: percentage of black voters, particularly young black voters who do
39:31
Speaker 1: not have a long time attachment to the democratic party
39:35
Speaker 1: as older black voters do to stay home right which
39:38
Speaker 1: is what they tried to do in 2016 with some
39:41
Speaker 1: success and if you look at the places where we
39:44
Speaker 1: need to win in michigan around detroit in um in Pennsylvania,
39:50
Speaker 1: around Philadelphia, and, you know, a little less so in Wisconsin,
39:53
Speaker 1: I think. But there are places where they think if
39:57
Speaker 1: they can shave the margin just a little bit, that
40:00
Speaker 1: can make the difference. And I do, you know, my
40:04
Speaker 1: issue with Biden's comments, which he was, you know, I'm
40:06
Speaker 1: glad he apologized for is, I think for a lot of,
40:11
Speaker 1: at least this is what the data shows, I think
40:13
Speaker 1: for a lot of older black voters, they probably care
40:15
Speaker 1: less about that. they do have a longtime attachment to
40:19
Speaker 1: the Democratic Party. And they understand that, you know, of course,
40:22
Speaker 1: we're not going to vote for Trump, and they have
40:23
Speaker 1: an affection for Joe Biden. But I think there's a
40:26
Speaker 1: lot of young people of color, and this is true
40:29
Speaker 1: of young people in general, who don't really have an
40:32
Speaker 1: attachment to either party. And the reason they don't have,
40:34
Speaker 1: they could have very liberal progressive values. But the reason
40:38
Speaker 1: that they don't have an attachment to either party is
40:40
Speaker 1: they don't see that anyone has done anything for them
40:43
Speaker 1: to make their life better over the last several years.
40:46
Speaker 1: And They're worried about their job prospects. They're worried about
40:50
Speaker 1: police brutality and police violence, which we're going to talk
40:53
Speaker 1: about in a second. They're now worried about how they've
40:55
Speaker 1: been disproportionately impacted by this virus. And again, they look
41:00
Speaker 1: around and they see no one seems to care. And
41:03
Speaker 1: all these politicians say the same thing around the election time.
41:05
Speaker 1: And yes, Trump's racist. And I get that. But where
41:09
Speaker 1: are the Democrats? Where is Joe Biden? What have they done?
41:12
Speaker 1: And so when you hear Joe Biden say, you know,
41:15
Speaker 1: you ain't black, they think, well, you know why? And
41:18
Speaker 1: this is what Charlemagne said to him. Charlemagne's like, this
41:21
Speaker 1: isn't about Trump. I don't like Trump. I'm wondering as president,
41:25
Speaker 1: what are you going to do for my community? How
41:28
Speaker 1: many times have politicians shown up in black communities to
41:31
Speaker 1: ask for votes? And then after the election, nothing happens.
41:35
Speaker 1: And we can say that Democrats have been fighting really
41:37
Speaker 1: hard to improve life in black communities. And that the
41:40
Speaker 1: reason that it doesn't happen is because Republicans have obstructed
41:42
Speaker 1: us in Congress, and they've stopped us at every turn
41:46
Speaker 1: and all that kind of stuff. And it's all true.
41:48
Speaker 1: But again, when all you see is a bunch of
41:50
Speaker 1: politicians talking, and then you don't see improvement come to
41:53
Speaker 1: your community, over time, you're going to have less of
41:56
Speaker 1: an attachment to that party. And to me, that is
41:59
Speaker 1: and it goes way beyond what Biden said and apologize,
42:02
Speaker 1: that's that's fine. But I think a big challenge in
42:04
Speaker 1: this election, I mean, you know, black turnout went down
42:08
Speaker 1: between Obama and Hillary, and that's somewhat understandable. He's the
42:10
Speaker 1: first black president. And then already in polls, Joe Biden
42:15
Speaker 1: is not receiving the same share of the black vote
42:18
Speaker 1: in polls that Hillary Clinton did. And particularly that's concentrated
42:23
Speaker 1: in young voters. And we've talked about this before in
42:27
Speaker 1: the universe of up for grabs voters, they are disproportionately
42:31
Speaker 1: young and disproportionately people of color right now. And I
42:36
Speaker 1: think the question is, Aside from this gaffe, aside from
42:40
Speaker 1: what the Trump campaign is doing, what would Biden not
42:42
Speaker 1: taking black voters for granted actually look like?
42:47
Speaker 2: I mean, I think based on a lot of the
42:48
Speaker 2: people who have been hired by the campaign and a
42:51
Speaker 2: lot of things we know is that this is something
42:53
Speaker 2: I have no reason to believe that they are, have
42:56
Speaker 2: any plans to take African American voters for granted, despite
42:59
Speaker 2: what Joe Biden said that from the campaign's perspective, it
43:01
Speaker 2: is about organizing in the community. with local people now, right?
43:09
Speaker 2: It is about outreach now. It's not waiting till the,
43:12
Speaker 2: like the complaint you always hear is that Democratic Party
43:16
Speaker 2: politicians come in, you know, a month before the election
43:19
Speaker 2: and focus on GOTV. It is about doing real organizing
43:24
Speaker 2: right now that is begins with conversations about what needs
43:27
Speaker 2: to be.
43:28
Speaker 3: Done in the community.
43:29
Speaker 2: And I think that that That has to be done. Now,
43:32
Speaker 2: that is much more challenging in a pandemic context where
43:35
Speaker 2: you can't go door to door. You can't go to
43:38
Speaker 2: community meetings. It's much harder, but it has to be done.
43:42
Speaker 2: And I think you're exactly right that the Trump campaign's
43:46
Speaker 2: goal is not to get more black voters. It's to
43:48
Speaker 2: make sure that Joe Biden gets fewer black voters. And
43:50
Speaker 2: it's not about the margin. It's about the aggregate number
43:53
Speaker 2: of total voters. And if I was in the Trump campaign,
43:58
Speaker 2: if you look at, you know, you always want to
44:00
Speaker 2: find sort of the inefficiency in the system you can exploit, right?
44:05
Speaker 2: And so if you know that you only have to
44:07
Speaker 2: move a group of voters two points to change the outcome,
44:13
Speaker 2: that is a very efficient way to spend money. And
44:15
Speaker 2: so that is why they are focused on it. Because
44:18
Speaker 2: if you change that number by two or three points
44:20
Speaker 2: in Wisconsin or Michigan or Pennsylvania or North Carolina, for example,
44:25
Speaker 2: you're going to win as opposed to losing. And we
44:28
Speaker 2: have to be very wary of that. And we can But,
44:31
Speaker 2: you know, not just Joe Biden, but the entire party
44:33
Speaker 2: can take nothing for granted. And we have to be.
44:36
Speaker 2: And it is not enough to just yell that Donald
44:39
Speaker 2: Trump is racist. We've actually seen research that shows that
44:42
Speaker 2: that is one of the least persuasive arguments with African-American
44:46
Speaker 2: voters who we need to get bring back into our camp.
44:48
Speaker 1: In fact, it's more persuasive to white liberals than most
44:51
Speaker 1: African-American voters.
44:52
Speaker 3: Yes.
44:53
Speaker 2: Because they understand that. And this is part of our
44:55
Speaker 2: next topic. They understand that racism is structural and is
44:57
Speaker 2: much bigger than just Donald Trump's tweets.
45:00
Speaker 3: Right.
45:01
Speaker 1: And on that note, you know, the other important thing
45:03
Speaker 1: to note here is we're having this conversation, you know,
45:05
Speaker 1: there have been a series of very horrific instances of
45:08
Speaker 1: racist violence and discrimination over the last several weeks. Um,
45:11
Speaker 1: we're now in the third day of protests in Minneapolis
45:14
Speaker 1: over the murder of George Floyd, a black man who
45:16
Speaker 1: died after he was pinned down and suffocated by police
45:19
Speaker 1: while he begged for his life. Um, I would highly recommend, uh,
45:23
Speaker 1: listening to Akilah Hughes talk about this on Wednesday's episode
45:25
Speaker 1: of what a day it's very powerful. Um, The officers
45:29
Speaker 1: have been fired but not charged with anything yet. On Tuesday,
45:33
Speaker 1: Biden called for a civil rights investigation into the killing,
45:36
Speaker 1: which he said was, quote, part of an ingrained systemic
45:38
Speaker 1: cycle of injustice that still exists where black lives are
45:41
Speaker 1: under threat every single day. Later, Trump tweeted out a
45:45
Speaker 1: call for an expedited investigation but didn't mention systemic racism.
45:50
Speaker 1: To me, the way Biden handles this is far more
45:53
Speaker 1: important than how he deals with his Breakfast Club comments.
45:56
Speaker 1: What do you think?
45:58
Speaker 2: I think that's right. I think this is a very
46:03
Speaker 2: important conversation to have. And it's a very different one
46:06
Speaker 2: than we normally have. I think it has to be
46:08
Speaker 2: one that's very honest, which is most of the time
46:11
Speaker 2: in the context of Pod Save America, we talk about
46:12
Speaker 2: these things. We talk about them in terms of how
46:15
Speaker 2: winning the election will change.
46:17
Speaker 3: Things, right?
46:19
Speaker 2: Where you're concerned about whether the ACA is around or
46:23
Speaker 2: whether more Americans should get access to health care or
46:25
Speaker 2: whether we're going to stop destroying the planet and try
46:27
Speaker 2: something different. And electing Joe Biden and Democrats in the Senate,
46:30
Speaker 2: Democrats in the House, up and down the ballot, all
46:32
Speaker 2: of that is a solution to those problems. No one
46:38
Speaker 2: should be naive. No white liberal should suggest that somehow
46:40
Speaker 2: winning this election is going to fundamentally change the dynamics
46:43
Speaker 2: that are at play here. Between the racism we saw
46:46
Speaker 2: in Central Park, obviously the police violence that has plagued
46:50
Speaker 2: our communities for a very long time that we're only
46:52
Speaker 2: paying more attention to now because of smartphone videos are
46:55
Speaker 2: showing it. It's not going to change that. Will Joe
46:58
Speaker 2: Biden do a much better job of trying to address
47:01
Speaker 2: both the root causes and some of the behaviors that
47:03
Speaker 2: lead to this?
47:04
Speaker 3: 100%.
47:04
Speaker 2: Even the steps that were taken in the Obama administration
47:08
Speaker 2: around police violence against minority citizens were, I have no doubt,
47:16
Speaker 2: not enough and later than they should have been. But
47:18
Speaker 2: even those steps were undone by Jeff Sessions and Donald
47:21
Speaker 2: Trump in the first few days. And Joe Biden would,
47:24
Speaker 2: I believe, put those in and go beyond it. And
47:25
Speaker 2: I think he has to have a very specific plan for.
47:28
Speaker 2: And I know he's talked about a bunch of this
47:30
Speaker 2: stuff during the primary and should talk about it again now.
47:33
Speaker 2: But this is the country in the world in which
47:37
Speaker 2: we live in. And I think it's really important for
47:41
Speaker 2: folks like us to listen to Akilah, to read some
47:45
Speaker 2: of the things that Brittany and a lot of other
47:47
Speaker 2: people have said about this and try to understand the
47:51
Speaker 2: right way for white liberals to respond to this, that
47:56
Speaker 2: fully understands the fear and despair and grief that comes
48:04
Speaker 2: from this from the African American community. And I think
48:06
Speaker 2: a lot that really needs to be thought about is
48:08
Speaker 2: the sharing of these videos that Akilah talked about that
48:11
Speaker 2: you would never share in any other context. And we
48:14
Speaker 2: don't think about that enough because I think people share
48:16
Speaker 2: them and they think, you know, despite maybe some subconscious
48:20
Speaker 2: sense of showing the world that they are woke, it's
48:22
Speaker 2: that We want the world to know this happens. But
48:24
Speaker 2: as Akilah points out just so passionately and powerfully in
48:27
Speaker 2: her remarks, that's not what's changing things, right? And you
48:30
Speaker 2: have to think about who is here and there. And
48:33
Speaker 2: it's impossible to put ourselves in those shoes. But I
48:37
Speaker 2: think about the comments from Christian Cooper in the New
48:41
Speaker 2: York Times where he is the person who was in
48:45
Speaker 2: Central Park as a birdwatcher and got in this altercation
48:48
Speaker 2: with a off the leash. And he talked about how
48:54
Speaker 2: his passion is birdwatching and that he has to think
48:56
Speaker 2: every day that he has chosen a hobby that has
48:59
Speaker 2: him crawling through the bushes with a metal object in
49:02
Speaker 2: his hands. And that if he comes out from behind
49:04
Speaker 2: the bush in the wrong way or at the wrong time,
49:06
Speaker 2: his life is at risk. And that is something that
49:10
Speaker 2: is much bigger than this election or anything else. And
49:17
Speaker 2: it goes beyond any of these videos. It is the
49:20
Speaker 2: fundamental reality that a huge portion of Americans are living
49:24
Speaker 2: in and addressing that. It's bigger than tweets and it's
49:27
Speaker 2: bigger than everything else we're talking about here.
49:29
Speaker 1: Well, and I mean, back to our earlier conversation about,
49:33
Speaker 1: you know, sort of needing a president who can help
49:37
Speaker 1: the country grieve during a time like this, right? There is,
49:40
Speaker 1: Biden of course needs plans for this and he'll have
49:42
Speaker 1: plans and I don't doubt that he will and he'll
49:44
Speaker 1: say the right things and he'll, and he'll have the
49:46
Speaker 1: right kind of plans to address this hopefully. But more
49:50
Speaker 1: important than that, maybe even more important than that is
49:53
Speaker 1: speaking about it in an honest way and showing that
49:57
Speaker 1: he gets it, that he gets at the core what
49:59
Speaker 1: this is really about, that he, you know, that, I mean,
50:03
Speaker 1: We have now seen protests in Minneapolis over the last
50:06
Speaker 1: couple of days. There were protests here in L.A. about this.
50:08
Speaker 1: This could continue. And as the country is sort of
50:12
Speaker 1: going through this turmoil and especially as the black community
50:16
Speaker 1: is sort of demanding rightfully that people understand what they
50:22
Speaker 1: have been going through and fearing for so long in
50:24
Speaker 1: this country, we need to have a president. We need
50:27
Speaker 1: to have leaders who show that they understand that. and
50:30
Speaker 1: that they can help heal the country and help find justice.
50:34
Speaker 1: And that is not, like I said, that is more
50:37
Speaker 1: than just plans. That is constantly talking about this, making
50:42
Speaker 1: this part of your message, making this part of the
50:44
Speaker 1: everyday discussions you have, not siphoning it off so that
50:47
Speaker 1: you're only talking about it when something pops up in
50:50
Speaker 1: the news, but that you're talking about it through this
50:52
Speaker 1: whole campaign. And, you know, like it's just getting the
50:57
Speaker 1: message out there. It's like what we've been talking about
50:59
Speaker 1: with everything else. And so I do think that's that's
51:01
Speaker 1: something that the Biden campaign needs to be focused on.
51:03
Speaker 1: One last question on this. Do you think any of
51:06
Speaker 1: this will impact Biden's VP selection?
51:10
Speaker 3: Should it?
51:13
Speaker 2: I don't know. Obviously, none of us know. And it's
51:15
Speaker 2: always the always important stipulation and discussion about rumors and
51:20
Speaker 2: Reporting around VPs is, in almost every case, the people
51:25
Speaker 2: who talk don't know and people who know don't talk.
51:27
Speaker 2: So you hear reporting about Biden's down to these two
51:33
Speaker 2: people or this person's every favorite. No one actually knows.
51:36
Speaker 2: And I actually frankly think Joe Biden does not know
51:38
Speaker 2: right now who his shortlist is because he said last
51:42
Speaker 2: night at a fundraiser he would probably make a decision
51:43
Speaker 2: around August 1. And so if you just base on schedule,
51:46
Speaker 2: it's unlikely that the vetting and other processes and certainly
51:49
Speaker 2: the interviews have happened yet I don't know whether this
51:52
Speaker 2: will have an impact on it. Polling, to the extent
51:55
Speaker 2: we've seen it, shows that it's not really clear. Some
52:00
Speaker 2: polling suggests that some people may add more to the ticket.
52:02
Speaker 2: There's a story out today that some polling that Stan Greenberg,
52:06
Speaker 2: a Democratic pollster, did says that Elizabeth Warren would be
52:08
Speaker 2: the best option. I've seen polling that says it doesn't
52:11
Speaker 2: make a huge difference. I think the question will be,
52:18
Speaker 2: Beyond all of the specifics of these individual things, what
52:23
Speaker 2: is the impact of a larger meta-conversation in our politics
52:30
Speaker 2: about Joe Biden specifically not picking a woman of color?
52:34
Speaker 2: Where you have very clearly qualified people in those positions
52:39
Speaker 2: to do it. It's not an abstract question. It is
52:43
Speaker 2: someone like Kamala Harris or Stacey Abrams who are on
52:46
Speaker 2: the quote unquote rumored shortlist, right? So you're picking someone
52:49
Speaker 2: other than them. Even if right now polling shows that
52:53
Speaker 2: people don't have strong feelings one way or the other,
52:56
Speaker 2: or ambivalent, or it all comes out on the wash
52:57
Speaker 2: in terms of who people pick, what is the impact
53:01
Speaker 2: of that meta conversation? And one that will certainly be
53:04
Speaker 2: weaponized by the Trump campaign, right? And other disinformation outlets
53:09
Speaker 2: to try to deal with the problem that you point
53:14
Speaker 2: out that Joe Biden is doing less well as of
53:17
Speaker 2: right now than previous Democratic nominees have done.
53:21
Speaker 1: And, you know, it is complicated. You know, you mentioned
53:24
Speaker 1: the political story about Stan Greenberg's polling, which pointed to
53:27
Speaker 1: Warren as the best option. Morning Consult did a poll
53:31
Speaker 1: this week that found Warren would have the biggest net
53:34
Speaker 1: positive impact on Biden's candidacy among all voters, but particularly
53:38
Speaker 1: among black voters and young voters, more so Kamala Harris
53:43
Speaker 1: or Stacey Abrams, though it's fairly close with black voters. And,
53:47
Speaker 1: you know, also we have to recognize that Elizabeth Warren's
53:50
Speaker 1: name ID, name identification is greater than Kamala Harris or
53:53
Speaker 1: Stacey Abrams, especially Stacey Abrams. But so, you know, first
53:58
Speaker 1: you have to understand, like, we don't know for sure
54:01
Speaker 1: that picking a woman of color in this scenario when
54:04
Speaker 1: you have Elizabeth Warren would attract more voters of color
54:08
Speaker 1: to the ticket. We just don't know that as we're
54:10
Speaker 1: sitting here today just being pundits. I will say of
54:13
Speaker 1: all of the potential picks, you know, Politico has a
54:17
Speaker 1: story this week quoting black activists who don't want to
54:20
Speaker 1: see Amy Klobuchar as the pick. And the Washington Post,
54:24
Speaker 1: Jonathan Capehart points to a 2019 headline from their paper
54:27
Speaker 1: that read, as a prosecutor in heavily white Minnesota, Amy
54:30
Speaker 1: Klobuchar declined to go after police involved in fatal encounters
54:33
Speaker 1: with black men. I do think with this happening in
54:37
Speaker 1: Minneapolis right now, the fact that Amy Klobuchar was the
54:40
Speaker 1: Hennepin County attorney for a long time, that is obviously
54:44
Speaker 1: going to raise some questions about her as a potential
54:47
Speaker 1: pick for, or could raise a lot of questions for
54:50
Speaker 1: her as a potential pick among a lot of voters
54:52
Speaker 1: of color. So I think it's unclear the effect it
54:55
Speaker 1: has on Warren versus Harris versus Abrams, but I do
54:59
Speaker 1: wonder if it does have some effect on Amy Klobuchar.
55:03
Speaker 2: I mean- I just, this is my guess, but it's
55:07
Speaker 2: an educated guess just based on having known and worked
55:09
Speaker 2: with Joe Biden for a long time, is his first
55:12
Speaker 2: and foremost test is going to be, are they ready?
55:18
Speaker 2: Which I think everyone who was on the rumor shortlist
55:20
Speaker 2: passes that test easily, right? That they could step, because
55:23
Speaker 2: just for, even if you didn't have a presidential nominee
55:26
Speaker 2: who was nearing 80 in a time of pandemic, you
55:29
Speaker 2: need to have someone who can step into the role.
55:34
Speaker 2: And I think the second one, which places really is
55:36
Speaker 2: who is the best governing partner, right? And that is
55:40
Speaker 2: going to take precedence over the politics of it with
55:43
Speaker 2: him for just, he's been vice president. He knows how
55:46
Speaker 2: important it is to have someone you can work with.
55:48
Speaker 2: You know, the relationship with Barack Obama was so critical
55:50
Speaker 2: to him and his experience there and the contribution they
55:52
Speaker 2: were able to make to the country. And he's been
55:54
Speaker 2: around long enough to see how that works when they
55:56
Speaker 2: get along and when they don't get along, right? Yeah.
56:00
Speaker 2: This is an election. It is the most important election
56:02
Speaker 2: in history. The politics will matter some. I think it'll
56:04
Speaker 2: be secondary. But these are going to be close calls
56:06
Speaker 2: where people are going to look at all of these things.
56:08
Speaker 2: And there will be no obvious choice. And you're going
56:10
Speaker 2: to have to make a gut. Because it's not a
56:13
Speaker 2: thing you can know in advance. Polling is not going
56:15
Speaker 2: to tell you who the right political choice is. It'll
56:18
Speaker 2: be how that choice is received. It'll be how that
56:22
Speaker 2: person performs on the campaign trail and how that person
56:24
Speaker 2: performs at the conventions and at the debate with Mike Pence.
56:28
Speaker 2: Presumably Mike Pence is allowed to attend.
56:30
Speaker 1: All I can do is guide you. Just ask John McCain.
56:34
Speaker 3: All right.
56:35
Speaker 1: When we come back, we'll have my conversation with Paul
56:39
Speaker 1: Tooze from Organizing Together 2020. I am joined today by
56:51
Speaker 1: the man who ran Iowa for the Obama campaign in
56:54
Speaker 1: 2008 and is now the head of Organizing Together 2020,
56:57
Speaker 1: the legendary.
57:00
Speaker 1: Paul Tooze. Welcome to the pod.
57:03
Speaker 3: Well, I'm very excited to be with you. I think
57:05
Speaker 3: I did this once before with you guys back when
57:07
Speaker 3: Tommy was doing an Iowa series. And it seems about
57:11
Speaker 3: every four years I'm popular for about two weeks when
57:15
Speaker 3: people start talking about Iowa. So it's good to be
57:18
Speaker 3: not just talking about Iowa.
57:21
Speaker 1: That's why we thought we'd bring you back. We don't
57:23
Speaker 1: want to pigeonhole you like that.
57:24
Speaker 3: Thank you. Thank you so much. I do appreciate that.
57:29
Speaker 1: Um, so I want to dig into organizing, but first
57:31
Speaker 1: I want to get your perspective on the overall state
57:35
Speaker 1: of the race. Where do you think things stand right now?
57:38
Speaker 1: What are Biden's biggest challenges and what are Trump's biggest challenges? 30,000
57:43
Speaker 1: foot view here.
57:45
Speaker 3: 30,000 foot. Well, I listen, I'm optimistic and I think, uh,
57:50
Speaker 3: you know, about our chances. I do think people should
57:52
Speaker 3: be optimistic. Um, you know, I think this is going
57:56
Speaker 3: to be an election that's obviously a referendum on Trump.
57:59
Speaker 3: And I think, you know, from all the polling you
58:02
Speaker 3: see and, you know, and just in conversations, you know,
58:04
Speaker 3: people aren't satisfied. They're not happy. They're, you know, they
58:09
Speaker 3: want to make a different choice. So, you know, I
58:13
Speaker 3: feel optimistic. I do think, you know, it's just incumbent
58:17
Speaker 3: upon and, you know, apropos to this conversation that people
58:19
Speaker 3: do their part. You know, this isn't, you know, I
58:22
Speaker 3: think a lot of people sit around and say, hey,
58:26
Speaker 3: let's wait for this Biden campaign to get going. Let's
58:28
Speaker 3: get moving. Biden's actually probably further ahead than where Obama
58:32
Speaker 3: was in the wait. We didn't start really getting going
58:37
Speaker 3: until July, August in the general. So I think he's
58:43
Speaker 3: further ahead there. But I think it's incumbent upon all
58:47
Speaker 3: of us and what we can do to affect this election.
58:50
Speaker 3: That's really what organizing is about. You know, that's where
58:53
Speaker 3: people come in on a day-to-day basis, talking to their neighbors,
58:56
Speaker 3: talking to their friends, you know, and not being afraid
58:59
Speaker 3: to have that conversation and not being afraid to have
59:01
Speaker 3: an opinion. And so, you know, I feel, I actually
59:05
Speaker 3: do feel optimistic, you know, about our chances, not only
59:09
Speaker 3: with Biden. but, you know, for Democrats as a whole. And,
59:13
Speaker 3: you know, it's just a function of working hard and
59:16
Speaker 3: working from the heart and getting out there and communicating
59:19
Speaker 3: with people and listening to people.
59:22
Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about that. You know, a lot of
59:24
Speaker 1: our listeners are all signed up, ready to organize. But
59:27
Speaker 1: I think there's some other people that It's great. But
59:30
Speaker 1: I think there's some other people out there who are thinking,
59:31
Speaker 1: all right, I'll vote. But, you know, Biden won the
59:35
Speaker 1: primary with the smallest field organization of anyone in the race.
59:39
Speaker 1: So maybe it doesn't make that much of a difference.
59:42
Speaker 1: What do you say to that? Why is field, why
59:43
Speaker 1: is organizing so important?
59:46
Speaker 3: Well, I think you can ask Al Gore when he
59:48
Speaker 3: lost by, what, 320 votes. You can ask, you know,
59:52
Speaker 3: Hillary Clinton when she lost in, you know, I think
59:55
Speaker 3: it was collective 80,000 votes in three states. Every vote matters.
59:59
Speaker 3: It really does. And organizing is important because I still believe,
1:00:05
Speaker 3: and I think most people should believe this, that politics
1:00:08
Speaker 3: is still about people. It's still about human interaction. It's
1:00:14
Speaker 3: still about how we treat one another. And I think
1:00:20
Speaker 3: if you care about your community, if you care about
1:00:23
Speaker 3: your country, anyone can be involved in politics. and everyone
1:00:28
Speaker 3: should be involved. Um, you know, no matter what your
1:00:32
Speaker 3: opinions are, um, uh, you know, uh, this country needs
1:00:36
Speaker 3: that your community needs that. And that should be your motivation.
1:00:40
Speaker 3: You know, I think most Americans do care about what's
1:00:43
Speaker 3: going on in their communities, what's going on in their neighborhoods,
1:00:45
Speaker 3: what's going on in their country. And, um, um, you know,
1:00:50
Speaker 3: being involved in, in, uh, political campaigns and volunteering and, um,
1:00:57
Speaker 3: It's a good feeling. I just have so many great
1:01:03
Speaker 3: memories of every campaign office I've ever walked in and
1:01:05
Speaker 3: you see volunteers coming in and out and they feel good.
1:01:08
Speaker 3: They feel good about their role. They feel good about
1:01:12
Speaker 3: the effort they're making on behalf of the things they
1:01:14
Speaker 3: care about. I think that's just healthy for democracy, healthy
1:01:19
Speaker 3: for us as a country when individual citizens just feel
1:01:22
Speaker 3: great about their role. you know, again, every vote matters
1:01:26
Speaker 3: and every vote matters. And, you know, one volunteer hour
1:01:31
Speaker 3: here or two volunteer hours there can be the difference.
1:01:34
Speaker 3: And oftentimes it has been the difference. So, you know,
1:01:37
Speaker 3: for the sake of your heart, go out and, you know,
1:01:40
Speaker 3: get involved and for the sake of your country and
1:01:42
Speaker 3: for the sake of talking to voters, get involved.
1:01:47
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, that certainly was the case in 2008.
1:01:50
Speaker 1: We always tell the story, but You know, you were
1:01:53
Speaker 1: running Iowa. I was in Chicago. And there were times
1:01:57
Speaker 1: in the summer of 2007 and the fall of 2007
1:02:00
Speaker 1: where the national media narrative was Obama's behind. Hillary's going
1:02:04
Speaker 1: to win. Obama has no chance. And we were all
1:02:07
Speaker 1: pretty down in the Chicago headquarters. And then you come
1:02:10
Speaker 1: out to Iowa, you step into that.
1:02:12
Speaker 3: It was tough, right?
1:02:13
Speaker 1: And you step into that Des Moines office or one
1:02:16
Speaker 1: of the offices or one of the field offices in
1:02:18
Speaker 1: all the all the different counties in Iowa. And you'd
1:02:21
Speaker 1: feel this energy and enthusiasm that was just electric. And
1:02:25
Speaker 1: it made you feel better about the race. Because I
1:02:30
Speaker 1: think when you're on the ground talking to people, doing
1:02:33
Speaker 1: that work, it's such a different experience than sitting at
1:02:36
Speaker 1: a desk, reading tweets, reading the news, looking at the polls,
1:02:41
Speaker 1: all that bullshit. It really is, it sort of, it
1:02:44
Speaker 1: does something to you.
1:02:45
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, listen, and that's the thing, you know, I think,
1:02:49
Speaker 3: You know, I think especially, you know, even this is
1:02:52
Speaker 3: now 12 years later, you know, when, I mean, boy,
1:02:54
Speaker 3: you see a new poll every five minutes, it seems,
1:02:57
Speaker 3: you know, that people can affect change right in front
1:03:01
Speaker 3: of them. That, you know, obviously there's a bigger picture, but,
1:03:04
Speaker 3: you know, I think most people want to know that
1:03:07
Speaker 3: what they're doing is making a difference. And that's very local.
1:03:10
Speaker 3: You know, all politics are local. And, you know, your
1:03:14
Speaker 3: ability to affect change happens neighbor by neighbor, friend by friend.
1:03:19
Speaker 3: community by community. And, you know, I think that's the
1:03:22
Speaker 3: attitude people have to have in order to, you know,
1:03:26
Speaker 3: in order one, to satisfy their own hearts and why
1:03:29
Speaker 3: they're doing this and two, to affect change. Yeah. You know,
1:03:36
Speaker 3: worry about and think about and focus on the things
1:03:38
Speaker 3: that are right in front of you.
1:03:40
Speaker 1: Let's talk about organizing together 2020. You guys set this
1:03:42
Speaker 1: up before the primary was over to make sure that
1:03:45
Speaker 1: whoever won the nomination would have an organizing staff ready
1:03:48
Speaker 1: to hit the ground running. Um, how was this informed
1:03:51
Speaker 1: by 2016?
1:03:51
Speaker 3: Yeah. So it was created, um, you know, organizing 2020
1:03:55
Speaker 3: was really created by, um, you know, a few, uh, uh,
1:03:59
Speaker 3: national unions, NEA, SCIU, and asked me, and then they
1:04:03
Speaker 3: went in through the strategic victory fund. Um, you know,
1:04:07
Speaker 3: it was, it was kind of this idea that, you know,
1:04:09
Speaker 3: that the number one challenge of, of organizing is time. Uh,
1:04:14
Speaker 3: you know, it always is, you know, it's, it's decided,
1:04:16
Speaker 3: you know, I think you know, back to 08 where
1:04:18
Speaker 3: Obama got good. Um, and nobody really talks about this is,
1:04:22
Speaker 3: you know, we had to run a campaign and 50
1:04:25
Speaker 3: States before the general election. Uh, we had time to,
1:04:29
Speaker 3: you know, train volunteers, work with volunteers, uh, get people energized,
1:04:34
Speaker 3: get people organized. So it's a function of time. So,
1:04:37
Speaker 3: you know, our whole mission here was, you know, we
1:04:39
Speaker 3: wanted to, uh, get organized early. Number one, uh, in
1:04:44
Speaker 3: these States, um, You know, get organizers trained up, give
1:04:48
Speaker 3: volunteers a home, give them something to do. And then
1:04:54
Speaker 3: third is, you know, to kind of create a little
1:04:56
Speaker 3: unity out there. You know, I think we have organizers
1:04:58
Speaker 3: from 13 different presidential campaigns. You know, as they, you know,
1:05:04
Speaker 3: came off of their own campaigns, you know, we hired
1:05:08
Speaker 3: them up and put them to work, you know, to
1:05:11
Speaker 3: develop some continuity. You know, so. Listen, it's an idea
1:05:18
Speaker 3: borne out by these unions who know organizing better than
1:05:23
Speaker 3: anybody that we just got to get ready and get going.
1:05:27
Speaker 3: And the general election will happen. Biden's in a good place.
1:05:32
Speaker 3: They're probably ahead of the curve. They're not behind. And
1:05:35
Speaker 3: we just want people to be ready and give them
1:05:36
Speaker 3: something to do. So that's what we're doing.
1:05:39
Speaker 1: You've always been someone who loves to send organizers out
1:05:42
Speaker 1: to knock on doors, to make phone calls. You believe
1:05:44
Speaker 1: in the team spirit of organizing, doing it side by
1:05:47
Speaker 1: side with other people. How are you thinking about ways
1:05:50
Speaker 1: to capture that spirit if we have to do much
1:05:54
Speaker 1: of this campaign from home because of the pandemic?
1:05:57
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, listen, I still think it's community. It's still
1:06:02
Speaker 3: campaigns or community. You would just have to be a
1:06:04
Speaker 3: little more creative with things like Zoom and And, you know,
1:06:08
Speaker 3: virtual offices and, you know, and getting people together as
1:06:13
Speaker 3: best they can in this situation. You know, I think
1:06:18
Speaker 3: some of the, you know, it's interesting when I first
1:06:21
Speaker 3: started in politics, you know, boy, that was a long
1:06:25
Speaker 3: time ago, John. You know, five years ago, three years ago. No, it's,
1:06:32
Speaker 3: you know, back then, you know, you know, the phone call,
1:06:37
Speaker 3: the phone was your weapon. You know, we, we would
1:06:39
Speaker 3: set up phone banks and that was your way to
1:06:40
Speaker 3: communicate with voters. So in a way, while technology has
1:06:44
Speaker 3: advanced so much, I still think there's a lot of
1:06:46
Speaker 3: ways to talk to voters, you know, whether it be
1:06:49
Speaker 3: through a phone call, whether it be through text message,
1:06:52
Speaker 3: text messaging, you know, a lot of people communicate through
1:06:55
Speaker 3: Facebook and, and you know, wherever you create content and
1:06:59
Speaker 3: they go out and put their own personal touch on it. And,
1:07:03
Speaker 3: you know, so, a volunteer, there's still a lot of
1:07:07
Speaker 3: things you can do to affect change. Um, um, and so,
1:07:12
Speaker 3: you know, we've built out tools and platforms around all
1:07:14
Speaker 3: those things. Um, but it's still about community and it's
1:07:18
Speaker 3: still about getting involved. And along the way you meet
1:07:21
Speaker 3: a few people and you enjoy your time. It's, it's
1:07:24
Speaker 3: a invigorating experience. I mean, as you know, as you
1:07:26
Speaker 3: can attest to.
1:07:29
Speaker 1: I sure can. Um, You know, we hear from a
1:07:32
Speaker 1: lot of people, we're doing this adopt a state program.
1:07:35
Speaker 1: People are adopting one of the six battleground states. And,
1:07:38
Speaker 1: you know, a lot of people say they're concerned about
1:07:40
Speaker 1: volunteering outside of their communities and maybe being perceived as
1:07:44
Speaker 1: an outsider. How do people avoid that if you're sort
1:07:46
Speaker 1: of calling into or reaching into another state?
1:07:50
Speaker 3: I think a couple of things I'd say, one is
1:07:52
Speaker 3: always be respectful. Um, you know, um, always be respectful
1:07:58
Speaker 3: to the voter you're talking to. Um, And respect starts
1:08:03
Speaker 3: with listening. You know, just listen to people. I think
1:08:08
Speaker 3: we need more of that in our politics, not less. And,
1:08:12
Speaker 3: you know, I think, you know, people across the country,
1:08:16
Speaker 3: you know, they have different stories to tell, you know,
1:08:18
Speaker 3: but there's a theme that runs through it. They care
1:08:21
Speaker 3: about a lot of the same things, family and, you know,
1:08:24
Speaker 3: their community and jobs and, you know, their own security.
1:08:29
Speaker 3: But Start with a proposition of respect. Listen. Don't be
1:08:34
Speaker 3: afraid to tell your own story. Don't read from talking points.
1:08:38
Speaker 3: Tell your own story. Why do you care? Why are
1:08:40
Speaker 3: you taking time to do this? If you say it
1:08:44
Speaker 3: in a respectful way, I think people listen. I do.
1:08:50
Speaker 3: That's important. Every voice matters. This is a country. We're
1:08:55
Speaker 3: not a collection of 50 states and thousands of communities.
1:08:59
Speaker 3: You know, we're one country. And so I think people
1:09:02
Speaker 3: should feel empowered to, you know, whether you're from California
1:09:06
Speaker 3: or New York or Vermont or Wyoming, to make a difference.
1:09:08
Speaker 3: And they can.
1:09:10
Speaker 1: So one of Biden's biggest challenges is getting young people
1:09:13
Speaker 1: out to vote, especially young people of color. The pandemic
1:09:17
Speaker 1: makes this even harder. Some college kids may not even
1:09:20
Speaker 1: be on campus this fall. How can we organize in
1:09:23
Speaker 1: a way that gets young people excited to actively participate
1:09:27
Speaker 1: in this election and not be bystanders?
1:09:30
Speaker 3: Listen, it starts with young people talking to young people.
1:09:35
Speaker 3: I think that sending me, maybe you could do it,
1:09:39
Speaker 3: sending me in to talk to young people, boy. Yeah.
1:09:43
Speaker 1: Uh, but it, you know, it's, it's, it's that I'm
1:09:45
Speaker 1: on the edge at this.
1:09:46
Speaker 3: Yeah. Right. Uh, I think, but, but it is like,
1:09:50
Speaker 3: I think it's the idea that, you know, um, this
1:09:53
Speaker 3: next generation, uh, and the lead and, and leaders in
1:09:57
Speaker 3: there and people that want to be leaders in there
1:09:58
Speaker 3: need to take it upon themselves, uh, to realize what's
1:10:02
Speaker 3: at stake in this election, uh, to get their fellow, uh, citizens,
1:10:08
Speaker 3: you know, younger citizens engaged, uh, and active, um, You know,
1:10:14
Speaker 3: and I think also, you know, there's onus on Biden, too,
1:10:17
Speaker 3: to speak to those issues. And I'm sure he will.
1:10:24
Speaker 3: You know, so I think it starts with those two propositions.
1:10:28
Speaker 3: I think it's got to be young people talking to
1:10:30
Speaker 3: young people about what's at stake. And then, you know,
1:10:34
Speaker 3: Biden at some point, and I know he's already done this,
1:10:39
Speaker 3: you know, really speaking to what they care about. Cause
1:10:43
Speaker 3: that'll get them, you know? Yeah.
1:10:45
Speaker 1: Last question for you that I've been asking people, uh,
1:10:49
Speaker 1: what's keeping you up at night about this election and
1:10:51
Speaker 1: you can't say everything.
1:10:53
Speaker 3: Um, I think participation is going to be the biggest thing. Um,
1:11:00
Speaker 3: you know, and I think, you know, at organizing together 2020,
1:11:03
Speaker 3: what we're trying to do now is, you know, across
1:11:06
Speaker 3: these States, um, fortunately in our States, um, there, um,
1:11:14
Speaker 3: you know, they're all have pretty good vote by mail rules,
1:11:17
Speaker 3: but it's giving, you know, letting people know early, you know,
1:11:21
Speaker 3: what their options are in voting, guiding them through the process.
1:11:27
Speaker 3: You know, folks like you and me and probably most
1:11:29
Speaker 3: of your listeners think about politics and campaigns 365 days
1:11:32
Speaker 3: a year. Normal, you know, the normal American doesn't.
1:11:38
Speaker 1: We're not normal.
1:11:39
Speaker 3: The normal American doesn't, you know, they may think about
1:11:42
Speaker 3: it three days before the election and maybe it's too late.
1:11:45
Speaker 3: So I think these phone calls and this volunteering that
1:11:47
Speaker 3: you're doing is, is important to educate people about their
1:11:53
Speaker 3: options and keep it in the front of their mind about,
1:11:56
Speaker 3: you know, what are my voting options? So that, that
1:12:00
Speaker 3: is what keeps me up at night is that, you know, we'll,
1:12:05
Speaker 3: Our traditional folks show up. Will there be confusion in
1:12:08
Speaker 3: the process? And are we ready to handle that confusion?
1:12:13
Speaker 1: Paul Tooze, Organizing Together 2020. Really looking forward to working
1:12:17
Speaker 1: with you guys on this initiative.
1:12:20
Speaker 3: Can I give a shout out?
1:12:21
Speaker 1: You sure can.
1:12:22
Speaker 3: You got to put this on the air. So Ashley
1:12:25
Speaker 3: Williams is our training director. She's a great training director.
1:12:29
Speaker 3: She's going to be guiding everybody through this. She's a
1:12:33
Speaker 3: big fan of your guys, listens all the time. So
1:12:37
Speaker 3: Ashley Williams will be handling all the training, and she's
1:12:39
Speaker 3: probably one of the best in the country. So people
1:12:42
Speaker 3: can feel good that when they get trained through us,
1:12:46
Speaker 3: that they're going to be in good hands.
1:12:48
Speaker 1: Another reason to sign up. Ashley Williams will be leading
1:12:50
Speaker 1: the training. She's one of the best in the business.
1:12:53
Speaker 1: You heard it here first. Twos, good talking to you, man.
1:12:57
Speaker 3: Take care. Thanks, John. Say hi to the boys.
1:13:03
Speaker 1: Thanks to Paul Tooze for joining us today. And everyone
1:13:06
Speaker 1: have a great weekend. We'll talk to you next week.
1:13:07
Speaker 2: Bye, everyone.
1:13:14
Speaker 1: Pod Save America is a product of Crooked Media. The
1:13:16
Speaker 1: executive producer is Michael Martinez. Our assistant producer is Jordan Waller.
1:13:20
Speaker 1: It's mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Kyle Seglin is
1:13:23
Speaker 1: our sound engineer. Thanks to Tanya Somanator, Katie Long, Roman Papadimitriou,
1:13:27
Speaker 1: Caroline Reston, and Elisa Gutierrez for production support. And to
1:13:31
Speaker 1: our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Nar Melkonian, Yale Freed, and
1:13:34
Speaker 1: Milo Kim, who film and upload these episodes as videos
1:13:37
Speaker 1: every week.