Latest / Dear Divorce Diary: A Fresh Approach To Healing Grief & Building A Life Of Confidence After Divorce / 359. Why Is Letting Go After Divorce So Hard When He Acts Like None of It Happened?

Transcript

359. Why Is Letting Go After Divorce So Hard When He Acts Like None of It Happened? · Dear Divorce Diary: A Fresh Approach To Healing Grief & Building A Life Of Confidence After Divorce

• 0:49
  SPEAKER_05: Darlings.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_05: Does anybody feel nervous right now?
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_03: No.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_05: No, I don't.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_05: I feel like I'm like it's just me.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_03: I'm bouncy.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_05: Well, we're in a different format.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_05: In a room together.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_06: Yes.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_05: With all of our lovely ladies here with us on retreat.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, it feels it feels different.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_05: It feels outside of my comfort zone.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_06: It's our first live pod with an audience.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, live pod with an audience.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, that's it.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_06: OG crew?
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_05: So I don't know if Nerd, like it feels outside of my comfort zone.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_05: Hello, studio audience.
• 1:23
  unknown: There we go.
• 1:23
  unknown: There we go.
• 1:26
  unknown: Okay.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_05: So we sort of hand-picked our topic for today because we wanted it to really gin up some emotions in the room.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_05: Just kidding, we love you all.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_05: No, but it's a thing that we really see women struggle with like profoundly.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_05: That just seems to make the divorce recovery process.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_05: It feels like a massive roadblock, a boulder, uh I don't know.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_05: It like takes on a life of its own in the divorce recovery journey.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_05: So we are going to talk about he looks fine and I feel crazy.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_05: So we have a lot of great chitty chat points that are like specific pain points around this huge, massive boulder.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_05: We're going to unpack them.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yay.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_04: Hi, love.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_04: Welcome to Dear Divorce Diary, the podcast helping divorcees go beyond talk therapy to process your grief, find the healing you crave, and build back your confidence.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_04: I'm your host, Don Wiggins, a therapist, coach, integrative healer, and divorcee.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_04: Join me for a fresh approach to healing grief and building your confidence after divorce.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_05: So let's talk about is it just me or does everybody else see something different?
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_05: Like, like is how I see it how everybody else sees it?
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_05: Like, does the world think he's fine?
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_05: Does the world think I'm insane?
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_05: Does the world think he's being an asshole?
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_05: Or that I'm a crazy lady.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_05: Right?
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_05: Like this whole sort of mind fuck.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_05: Can I say that on this podcast?
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_05: Yes.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_06: I mean, okay.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_06: It's Tuesday.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_06: We're here for it.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_06: We're at the beach.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_06: Um, so I remember when my ex got married to wife number two.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_06: We were at a birthday party together for my daughter.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_06: And I want to say she turned like five or six.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_06: And we had like this beautiful sparkle party here in Myrtle Beach at Sparkle, where all the little girls came and they got their hair and makeup done, and we dressed them up and put them on a stage, and like we had all of this.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_06: We were taking photos together and doing family pictures.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_06: And I remember posting it on Facebook, and one of my friends is like, Holy fuck, his new wife is like your doppelganger.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_06: And she did.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_06: She looked a lot like me.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_06: And so it's kind of like my friends kind of knew that he wasn't well, that he was a healing.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_06: But it's like for me, I was like, Well, he's moved on so quickly and got married.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_06: You know what I mean?
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_06: It was kind of like one of those deals.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_06: So, perception of my friend group was the the quicker that they move on, the more fucked up they are.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_06: So that like that it was well understood.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_06: Yes.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, yeah.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_03: That was not under But I didn't perceive it that way.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_06: I was just like, okay, well, clearly this meant nothing, yeah, you know, or whatever.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_06: And I remember I asked him one time, like, why didn't you fight for me?
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_06: Like, even though I left you, like, why didn't you come back and fight?
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_06: And he said, Because I felt like your dreams were too big for me.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_06: I felt like I was holding you back from the life that you should have had.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_06: I don't know, I've ever heard you share that.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_06: So that was like a big thing because I was like, why, you know, and he was just like, I just knew that I wasn't your person.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_06: And that was the conversation.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_05: I feel like my ex and I sort of we did marriage counseling, but I really think it was divorce counseling, which I think is common.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_05: Uh before, yeah.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_05: Very similarly, his next next ex-wife.
• 5:04
  unknown: Yeah.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_05: Also, we have very similar builds, very, yeah, yeah.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_05: And um, now he's on his third wife.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_05: Um, but yeah, he moved on very quickly and she just moved right into our house and just sort of took up um, you know.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_05: He I've heard some of the women in our community talk about this.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_05: He uh had her and I execute a lot of the paperwork pieces.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_05: He didn't do it himself, even though he's a lawyer.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_05: Um, but do I think that the community perceived that I was a disaster and he was well?
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_05: I think that if I had to guess, I would say that the community at large is broken into chunks, population chunks, right?
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_05: There are some people who probably are more in the addictive space that are like, good for you, move on, get going, screw them, you know, and they really do celebrate quickly moving on.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_05: And as long as you're happy, yeah, you're making the right choice.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_05: And I don't think that's what some other people celebrate.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_05: I think some other people celebrate if you're in integrity or if you're in alignment or if you're um, you know, following some spiritual path, or then then you're on the right track, right?
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_05: So I I sort of split it into two very oversimplified camps.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_05: What are your thoughts on that?
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_05: Of how the like the world at large responds.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, some mmm, my immediate circle knew it it was he.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_03: It was him.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_03: It was him, right?
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_03: But the majority of the town didn't, right?
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_03: But that's also a way I another layer that I had to heal from because I hermited in my little community.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_03: And so, like, I'll be intentionally avoid the surp super supermarket or all these things.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_03: So, like I think the outside population judges or like I felt they have the story.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_03: They have the story.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_03: All right.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_03: And so um, I really feel like you have to kind of like step back and clarify what group or what circle you're actually letting in to your little story to tell yourself.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_05: You have to heal from both, right?
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_05: It's like let's heal here in the safe bubble, but then yeah, going out and facing the world is a whole nother layer of healing.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_05: And I had to leave.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_06: Like I had to leave town.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_06: I had to leave my military community, and that's why I moved here to Myrtle because it was like I didn't want to be the girl at the commissary.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_06: Like, it's kind of like in the Amish, right?
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_06: Like, once you cheat, you're tainted and like nobody else wants you.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_06: So it was kind of one of those things where like people would ask me all the time, would you ever marry another military man?
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_06: And I would say yes all the time because I love the lifestyle because I would get my independence when they're gone.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_06: And I felt like I was a very loyal wife, like when I was being treated in a way that felt loyal.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_06: Um, so I wanted that life again.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_06: But then, like coming here, there was so much comfort in no one knowing me here.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_06: Nobody knew my story.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_06: You know what I mean?
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_06: Like I didn't have to share a lot of it.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_05: It removes a certain amount of pressure from the early days of healing.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_05: So this next question is really clever.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_05: Um, but this element of he moves on quickly, I feel like a crazy person.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_05: Does it cause us to question if we're remembering the marriage wrong?
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, so uh yes, I would be walking through my house and I would stop and look at a picture and like I thought he was happy here.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_03: I thought he loved me here.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_03: Like it was very like I dissected every trip, every phone call, every time I like I I literally re-evaluated every moment of the last you know decade because like what am I pro like am I the problem?
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_03: Am I did I the you know what I mean?
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_03: Like, um, I feel that I totally well I so like we got really quick, right?
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_06: Like we dated off and on for a couple of years, but then like when we locked it in, we dated for three months in that stretch and then got married right away, and then he left, right?
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_06: I remember post-divorce, he was going to therapy and doing all this work, and he wrote it was like he was writing a memoir, like he was a very good writer and he shared it with me.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_06: And I I think I told you guys this, but I'll say it again.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_06: He sent it to me, and there was a line in there that talked about the fact that he didn't actually start to fall in love with me until we had our daughter, right?
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_06: So I so I knew why I was gravitating towards him, right?
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_06: But I was addicted to that intensity of him.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_06: I when I look back, I'm like, I think I was in love with him, but I don't know.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_06: Like I loved him, but I don't know that what we had, like, like if I compare to what is now in my relationship, I know I've never felt like this before, right?
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_06: So it was like, what was that?
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_06: So I feel like we just branched off on it.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_05: Yes.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_05: And so we have two branches management.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_05: Okay, so first things first, are we remembering the marriage wrong?
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_05: Uh let's talk about that.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_05: But and also, um, I don't think I I don't think I was remembering the marriage wrong.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_05: I think we pick and choose sometimes what to remember or what to retain.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_05: Memory is a funny thing, right?
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_05: And um we suppress and we repress and we deny and we bypass and we play all these tricks on our own memory so that we can avoid having to look at the whole picture because we'd have to fix something, right?
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_05: So are we remembering the marriage wrong?
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_05: Maybe we're picking and choosing and selecting certain things that we're remembering.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_05: Um, but also we can only remember what we were exposed to.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_05: Um and so if you don't know from your experience, right, that you only started falling in love with me after our kid was born, like wow, that's that's a little late to the case.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_06: But that's the perception and like you, like looking back on photos and then figuring out what he was doing while those photos were being taken, right?
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_06: It's kind of like, was I that fucking blind too?
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_06: Like, did I not know that my partner was like not happy or not like disconnected?
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_05: So I want to talk about that from an attachment perspective slash IFS perspective, because it's both things, uh, which I know gets really complex.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_05: And I know sometimes our lovely community says you gloss over complex things very, very quickly.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_05: Um so from an attachment style perspective, I believe that being partnered with my ex quieted certain firefighter exile, but you know, like certain parts got quiet that then felt safer in the world because I was married.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_05: That is not love.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_05: But I didn't know the difference then.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_05: So that is just one thing I want to acknowledge that um, you know, I think that makes it both easier for everybody to move on faster because it's really just this sort of function of quieting those parts versus actually healing them, or how deep love ever actually was present.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_05: It's an interesting concept to think about.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_05: If I'm if I'm an untreated, traumatized human, which I was, how much capital S self, which we talk a lot about around here, but I think it's a hard concept to understand.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_05: If I've not been embodied in capital S self much, if ever in my life, what is my actual capacity for love?
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_05: It's huge.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_05: That's like a massive to have, right?
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_05: But like, and so then when we look at how quickly he moves on versus how hard it is for us to move on, well, if we're diving into all that attachment style stuff and all those parts stuff, and he's just going on to quiet his parts, um, then then yeah, that's gonna look wildly, wildly different.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and I think it was easy for both my ex and I to move on uh because of that.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_06: I agree, and I'm in the same position, right?
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_06: And what as you're sitting here talking to me about this, it really resonates because I had addiction issues with alcohol.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_06: In the military, I couldn't do that.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_06: I had to embody the perfect military wife.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_06: Right.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_06: And so I didn't drink.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_06: I didn't drink, I didn't go out, I couldn't smoke weed, I couldn't do anything.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_06: And so it's like I traded, he then became my addiction.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_06: He then became the dopamine hit, right?
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_06: So then it was like when he wasn't serving that purpose anymore, and we both went our separate ways.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_06: I just found a new addiction.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_06: Right.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_03: I just found a new hit.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, so one of our loves asked a question, okay?
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_03: So what is love?
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_03: What's the difference?
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_03: Wait, wait, wait, let's say, wait, wait.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_03: What's the difference?
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_03: And how do you know the difference between loving a man and being in love with a man?
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_03: This is a good one.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, it's so good.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_05: And and like there's a million ways to answer that, and not for nothing, scientists and philosophers and poets.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_05: Okay, scientists, philosophers, and poets all have a take on this, right?
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_05: And we have our own perspective, which I'm not gonna claim is either scientific, philosophical, or poetic.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_05: But I think that we all have come to understand and believe that when we can be with ourselves and feel loving eyes, right?
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_05: Like a sense of warmth and love and acceptance and peace and admiration and for and with ourselves and foreign with other people, that is the experience of love.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_05: Uh and that could be a lot of things.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_05: Um, sometimes I hear clients and people, and I don't know, the tiki tackie talk about love sometimes as an action word, like it's an act of physical sacrifice and commitment that you make every day, even when it's hard.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_05: But is that when we're really embodied in capital S self and there's an energetic flow, right?
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_05: So that's probably another component of love, right?
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_05: That from a spiritual perspective, um, love is all around us all the time.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_05: We were created by an intelligent creator from a place of love, which very, very candidly, I sometimes still grapple with because of trauma or maybe just being human, right?
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_05: Like, and the concept of faith being something that you cannot prove.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_05: And so I do still sometimes get in the weeds about, but was I created by an intelligent creator from a place of love?
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_05: Or am I on the set of um, what's that Jim Carrey movie?
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_05: Am I on the set of Oh God Almighty?
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_05: No, no, no, no, no.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, that one was that one.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_05: No, the one where he figures out he's on a movie set.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, Truman Truman show.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_05: Am I on an episode of the Truman show and like jokes on me?
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_05: So, like, fair.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_05: But when there's energetic flow in the body and we're able to give and receive love freely from, you know, anyone everywhere all the time, how do we know when we're in energetic flow?
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_05: Well, we don't have massive buckets of anxiety, we don't have depression, we don't have, you know, buckets of chronic ailments where, you know what I mean?
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_05: Like there, there's a robustness, there's flow.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_03: It's almost like when you're not, um, and correct me if I'm wrong, but when you're not looking to him for your fulfillment and and groundedness, like when it's truly just a partnership versus I need him to fill a gap, or I need him to um make me validate or to make me uh um um whole.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_05: Right, whole, seated, yeah.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_05: Okay, so you just opened another beautiful brand.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_05: I've been wanting to revisit the codependency triangle, right?
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_05: Which is this tendency to bounce between victim rescuer persecutor versus being grounded in a sense of I am worthy and whole, regardless of what I produce, regardless of who whose attention I have, like all of that.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_05: So stay tuned.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_05: We're gonna do the codependency triangle soon.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_05: But right, codependency is not love.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_05: It's not.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_05: And so when anxious attachers or disorganized attachers are chasing avoidance, it's not love.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_05: It's an attempt to, it's a repetition compulsion and it's compelling.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_05: It feels intoxicating because of the neurochemicals involved in that chase.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_05: Like think about when you are um, okay, let's talk about my particular way of escaping, right?
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_05: Where I'm like, oh, a Disney cruise.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_05: Okay, okay, okay.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_05: In a minute, I'm gonna have four minutes to spare.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_05: And I'm just gonna hop on the website and I'm just gonna look at the itineraries for these dates, these days, indeeds.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_05: And I'm gonna compare that thing that I'm describing, and then it goes on for months and months and months, and then, and then finally I'll book one, and then it's planning which pixie dust we're gonna do.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_05: And that whole thing could be considered an addictive process, right?
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_05: That's there's a fantasy, there's a searching, there's a outside of myself, right?
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_05: And I'm not pathologizing this, I'm not saying it's wrong or bad, but I'm saying it's not love.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_05: It's a chase, it's fantasizing about that cup of coffee in the morning, it's you know, and how you're gonna, you know, that first sip feeling.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_05: It's fantasizing about, right?
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_05: That's all good.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_06: It feels good, but it's not love.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_06: And I would always gravitate towards the men who are the most broken and the most fucked up, right?
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_06: Because it's like, and then when they're sharing these things with me and they're letting their walls down, that is that dopamine for me and that addiction of like I'm the only one that can touch you and get you to see whatever, but it's not, it's not love, it's codependency, and then they're to codependent on me.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_06: And then it's like this back and forth type of things.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_06: This is the first relationship that I've ever been in that I have been able to number one, know who I am, have my own sense of individual self, hobbies, friend groups, and then also join forces with somebody who also has the same thing.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_06: And so we have it's like a three like we have our life together, and then we have our separate lives where we have different friends and different hobbies that we we go do with our friends, you know?
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_06: Like we don't always have to be together because there's a sense of security in who I am, right?
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_06: And for me, I was conditioned growing up and through relationships that if a man was not trying to control me, he didn't love me.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_06: Possession.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_06: Correct.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_06: If he's not trying to control that asshole out for looking at me across the room, then he doesn't.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_06: So I would always get with men that were super amped, super angry.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_06: You know what I mean?
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_06: Like just jealous as hell.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_06: My big juice heads.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_06: Okay, I just want to check where we are.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_05: Juice heads.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_05: Did we answer the question?
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_05: Am I remembering the marriage wrong?
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_05: Did we answer the question, what is love?
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_05: Did we answer the question?
• 19:31
  unknown: Okay.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_03: We're getting some kind of nods.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm assuming like uh 20 minutes later.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, one more, like, you know, juicy question, then I want to throw some rapid fires at you.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_05: So, what is a woman to do with what she's making all of this mean, right?
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_05: That he looks fine and I'm a mess.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_05: What is a woman to do with what she's making that mean about who he is, who she is?
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_05: What does a woman actually need to be focusing on?
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_05: Stay in your own fucking lane.
• 20:06
  unknown: Okay.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_06: Honest to God, more said than done.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_06: I understand that, but it's like for me, I have known my ex-husband since we were 10 years old.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_06: I was his first wife, okay?
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_06: He is getting ready to know.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_06: I've got it right there.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_06: They're on, he's on number four, mine's on number three.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_06: Yes, so he's getting ready to divorce his fourth wife.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_06: And look, I have a lot of love for the man, right?
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_06: I'm not saying this to throw it out there.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_06: What I'm saying is that there is time, well, there are cycles, and it's the same types of women, and it's the same, like he loves to be the rescuer.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_06: Like, I get it, you know what I mean?
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_06: But it's like at some point, I would love for this man to fix his shit because he has such a big heart.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_06: I would love for him to be able to actually find a partner where he can feel good enough to fix himself and actually love well because he has this beautiful soul.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_06: You know what I mean?
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_06: That's the point.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_06: It's like Yeah, and doesn't everybody know, yes, I know.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_06: Correct.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_06: And so it's like you you want that to happen.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_06: My point is just because you're doing the work, understand that if he's moving on, he's not healing shit.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_06: He has found another person.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_06: You're jumping ahead to my crack.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_06: That's not like we're it's like juicy for me though, right?
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_06: Because so many women get caught up in it.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_06: Like, fuck what he's doing.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_06: Like, literally, if you're taking the time to heal and you're going through the messiness and you're grieving, he's not doing any of it.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_05: Well, we drop into self-pity sometimes, right?
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_05: Because yes, but it's like you have to choose your heart.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_05: Correct.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_05: You could do it the way he's doing it, and you could go numb and underground and all the things, right?
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_05: Or you can do it, you know, some healing journey.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_05: Both are hard.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_05: You have to choose your heart because um being in a codependent cycle, which is not really that different than an addictive cycle.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_05: Hear me.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_05: This is again, this is why we have to plan this episode.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_05: Codependency and addiction are basically the same thing, just different substances, right?
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_05: One is like illicit substances and alcohol and blah, blah, blah.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_05: The other is like people and approval and all those things.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_05: So those cycles are very, very similar.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_05: You either choose a path of an addictive cycle and non-authenticity and not really love, but consumption.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_05: Because that's what addiction is, it's about consumption, or you choose a path of authenticity, reaching for self, reaching for the flow of love, and both are hard.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_05: And you have to choose your heart.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_05: What else do we do with what we're making this mean?
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_05: That he is he seems fine and I'm a disaster.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_06: I mean, I think it's a lot of judgment and shame on yourself.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_06: You know, I'm just like, did it mean nothing?
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_06: Like, that's what I hear women say a lot when they move on is like, did I not mean anything to them?
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_06: Right.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_06: Again, it's not about that.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_06: They have just found somebody else to project all of their stuff on.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_06: Like, you you were the replacement.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_06: You became too.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_06: Hard for them at some point.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_06: You either pushed back, you either challenged, you did something, and they didn't like it.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_06: And so they're gonna go the path of least resistance.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_06: And so they're gonna find another woman that is again willing to buy into their crap for a while.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_03: Is it can I can I ask you?
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_03: Because is there an um a situation where they become too easy?
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_03: Like they become so small that they don't they don't push back, they they become who that man is them to be.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_03: And then it's like, oh, but like I I literally did everything.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_03: They shrink too much.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_03: I literally did everything to make him happy and he still left me.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_03: So like I didn't push back, I didn't um you know track down the phone call or I didn't like I just that's the thing.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_05: We fall in love from this is the this is the danger of codependency.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_05: We fall in love with people in their more natural state because we see them living more robustly in themselves.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_05: And then when there are codependent roots that have never been healed, we fall back into codependent patterns inside of marriage, which does mute our selfness.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_05: So we do become paler versions of ourselves in codependent marriages.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, and then what am I really married to anymore?
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_03: I see that so often in the spiritual side of marriage because so many times there's um women are told very falsely to submit, to be quiet, to love them better.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_03: I literally had a friend um whose husband would literally disappear and have, you know, drunken, drug yeah, fenders.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_03: Right, cool.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_03: Benders um When Night Stands, and her sister literally told her, let God be your husband.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_03: Like, don't don't divorce, let God be your husband.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_03: I've let like, yeah, you have to shrink so far down to Right, yeah.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_03: And so um I do think that there's that makes me want to take a shot.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_03: I'd like to be fair, like that.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_03: I haven't spoken to a sister since.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_03: But like that's not the point.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_03: No, no, no, no.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_03: Like that's not true.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_03: So what do I do with what I'm making it mean?
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_05: What do I do with what I'm making it mean?
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_05: If I can't, right?
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_05: Like if I'm making it mean that I matter less, what do I do with that?
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_05: I know I keep asking the same question.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_05: I just want to make sure we're being thorough.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_05: Um what do I do with what I'm making it mean?
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_05: Um I didn't matter, the marriage didn't matter.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_05: I you really have to despine what people think about it.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_05: I'm a mess.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_03: You really have to um s self, like if if you own it, like I I married him.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_03: So that was the own your part in it, right?
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_03: Like, he was owning your part.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_03: And then even if even if your part was going small, I didn't stand up to him.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't check his phone.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_03: I or you know, like check behind him, or like I didn't didn't um uh I feel like Yeah, can I know?
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_05: It's like uh we're saying all the right things, right?
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_05: But sometimes I think our advice is such bullshit.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_05: And here's why.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_05: Because the steps it takes, the bajillion micro steps it takes to be able to do our advice requires really skilled providers to walk you down that path.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_05: It requires the capacity to feel safe enough to do the things we're inviting you to do.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_05: It requires the community to hold space for you while you feel into your messiness.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_05: It requires you slowing down enough to be able to open the loops, feel through the loops, and close the loops.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_05: It requires a commitment to a journey that is hard.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_05: It like I feel like sometimes we give like great advice, but it's dumb because it just says do your, you know, on your side.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_05: And then maybe maybe women are like, right, like yeah.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_06: Fair.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_06: Anyways.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_06: Well, there's things that you need.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_06: Like you need, you know, like our pillars, right?
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_06: Like to me, you need homeopathy, you need IFS, you need a community group of people, you need a good therapist.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_06: Like there are things that you need to, and you know, ladies, when you say, Well, I can't afford it, like, sorry, but your Amazon account says otherwise.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, yeah, that's it.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_06: Choose your addiction.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_06: I can't choose your addiction.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_05: But we like to pay for things that make us feel happy.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_05: We do nothing to pay for things that make us feel sad.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_05: No, I understand that.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_05: I understand that.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_06: And a lot of women feel like if they open it up, they're gonna get stuck there.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yes.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_05: And I addressed this on Instagram recently, and I think that's a very legitimate fear.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_05: We have another question.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_03: Um, okay, so I keep I just keep going.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_03: This is from from one of our loves.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_03: I just keep going back to all the memes that say after a breakup, always look at one who is doing the work, the one who is quiet, and then look at the one who isn't.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_03: And when he looks like he's doing fine, it's clear which one he is, which is very, yes.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_06: I agree.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_06: Like, what work is he doing on myself?
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_06: You know what I mean?
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_06: Like, my ex is the same person in relationships as he was, because you know, I know because his ex-wives usually call me to say, Hey, does this track?
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_06: It's like, yes.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_06: And again, it's not a dig on him, but it's like, honey, please do your healing.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_06: Like it's a line.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_06: Mind yourself.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_06: So much, right?
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_06: It's like, um, I don't know.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_06: So I would rather take the time to heal myself and take the year or the two, however long, you know, because again, if you're not doing it, you are gonna repeat the cycle.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_05: You are gonna continue to read.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, so that said, let's move to our rabbit fire because you're yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_06: So like as fast as you can, blurt it out, blurt it out.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_05: Did he heal faster or did you just leave sooner?
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_05: He left sooner.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_05: He left sooner.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think anybody can do a fast track.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_03: Like it doesn't, it doesn't matter.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_05: It's not that's right, that's not a thing.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_05: No, yeah.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_05: Why am I carrying all the emotional weight after divorce?
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_05: Because he doesn't want to face his shit.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_05: He'd rather not feel it.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_05: Because you're wise.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_03: Do you think there's some kind of right, wait, but listen, listen, so like generationally, like um microbi like um DNA.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_03: It's in the DNA and like inheritance.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_03: If if if we're divorced, women were shunned, they were cast out, they were you know, they had to sew nets in the alleyway of the town, right?
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_03: We're damaged goods.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_03: Damaged goods.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_03: So like a divorced woman damaged goods, yeah, like inherited.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, some of it's inherited.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_03: Uh-huh.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_03: I think I think there's a shame that comes with women who who get divorced because of all this shit that, you know, women were nothing.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_03: They were they were cast out.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_06: Some of us would be walking around with an A painted on our shirt.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_06: Yes.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_06: Not an S.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_06: What's an A?
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_06: No, adultery.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_06: Oh, adultery.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_05: All right, ready?
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_05: If he misses me, uh-huh, why doesn't it look like it?
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_05: Mine would tell me he did from time to time.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_06: Oh, why doesn't it look like it?
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_06: But if mine wouldn't oh well, because he doesn't want other people to know.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_06: Are you kidding me?
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_06: He wants he wants other people to think, especially if you're the one that left, too, right?
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_06: Like or if he's the one that chose.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_05: But you know how we can know?
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_05: You know how we can know?
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_05: He sends dumb messages in the group chat with your kids.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, yeah.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_05: For instance, we can tell by some of the cockame-y behaviors he does that he is missing you.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_05: One's family days.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_05: But also is good at secrets and and you know, the brain likes the brain hates buyer's remarks.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_05: Right?
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_05: The brain will do anything it can to um prove to itself that it yeah, it bought the right model of television.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_05: And then not feel regret, right?
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_05: So yeah.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_05: But you will see it leak out in little ways.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_05: And it's probably ways that'll piss you off, but they really probably mean he misses you.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_05: What if he's really happier without me?
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_05: I think that's okay.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_06: He might be.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_06: He might be.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_06: And I think that's what the problem that a lot of women have, right?
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_06: Is like sometimes you could look at my current relationship, like guys I was with in the past.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_06: Well, why does that guy get to her heart?
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_06: Why does he get the most vulnerable part of her?
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_06: And it has to do with emotional safeness.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_06: And to admit that your partner doesn't feel emotionally safe with you requires you to look at yourself and say, what about me?
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_06: Didn't make him feel emotionally safe.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_06: So again, it's owning that part.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_06: And it hurts, dude.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_06: It hurts because when I look back at my two, like I wasn't a great partner at some points.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_06: Like I own that shit.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_06: You know what I mean?
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_06: It was hard for me to get there because I'm never wrong.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_06: But now, yes, I would say that is it is it's okay, and he may be.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_03: But that's again, that's that's not on you.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_03: Like that's not yours to carry.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_05: Why do I need him to hurt before I can heal?
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_03: I feel that one.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_06: Cause there's a lot of resentment, anger.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_06: And even if you're the one that left, yeah.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_06: I'm telling you, and I know I've said this before on the pod, when I called his phone and that ring back to TI came on, whatever you like, I'm like, you motherfucker.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_06: I was like, that's what you're putting out to these girls.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_06: Like, no, uh.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_05: I will tell you, the only way I really was able to permanently unhook that thing with any person in my life whom I felt I needed them to feel the consequences of the pain they had caused is homeopathy.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_05: Like no other tool helped me really finally be done with that.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_03: I think for me, there was there was a judgment, like um scripture tells us that God is the judge.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_03: And so I got to be like, you're gonna be judged one day.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_03: Like I got to you, like put my hands up, like, you know, I don't have to punish you.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_03: Like, because it was it was almost like a um, it was like a if I well it still helps you feel powerful, right?
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_03: That's what I'm saying.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_03: Like it helped me, like you're the judgment that's gonna come to you is and for me, it was about energy.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_06: The energy it was taking me to be pissed off, being resentful, not even towards him, but just people in general over the years.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_06: That's like they're not over there thinking about it.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_05: Like that's no, but you know that tendency to replay conversations in the shower and language and all that, right?
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_05: Like, I could get to that place where the anger isn't worth it, and I could get to the place of like good mental health um behavior and good spiritual practices.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_05: Like, I could do all that, but then something would flare it up, yeah, and then I'd be back in that sort of perseverating loop, you know?
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_05: And so yeah, it really is the sort of quantum methodologies that really helped me finally be because that you know that Taylor Swan a little bit of Taylor Swift's song, like um something about being indifferent.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_05: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_05: Is that the right and is the tune right?
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, like it's it's indifference really is a sign of letting go of peace.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_05: And yeah, that that has been a journey.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, okay.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_03: This is another good one.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_03: This is from a different love.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_03: Hold on one second says, um, I don't want the marriage anymore, but I don't want the want to be divorced is like an identity piece of it.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_03: Uh-huh.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_03: And he doesn't deserve to be happy after what he did to me or my kids.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_03: I relate.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_05: Like, why does he get to have the the bachelor lifestyle and the like he gets But that that thing right there, I you and I were fussing over this yesterday, a very different version of this, okay?
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_05: If that's true, if he doesn't deserve, then I don't deserve anything either because I'm not a perfect person.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_05: And that means that every time I've hurt somebody else, I don't deserve to be forgiven.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_05: And that is not a world that ends in anything other than complete and utter destruction and entropy.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_05: Either forgiveness has to grace and forgiveness have to be available to all.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_05: Or none of this work stands.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_05: You have to be able to think that through to the end.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_05: If there are people who don't deserve forgiveness, then where does that leave me?
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_05: Because Lord knows I have hurt some people in my life.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_05: She said that's the wrong answer.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, that's beautiful.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_03: I don't want to hear that answer.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_03: That's not the thing.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_05: Uh okay, I just want to scan if I have any other of my favorite rabbit marrow treasures.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_05: Um, why does this piece feel like proof that I was the problem?
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_05: Probably because it because it is.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_05: But the thing is, is it's not you weren't the problem.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_05: You were part of the problem, right?
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_05: The pr and the problem is multifold.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_05: It's like the qu I feel like the like if we were in grammar class and we were trying to figure out what the subject and the predicate was, um it's like the subject of that sentence, I think, is the problem, right?
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_05: And that's very ego state.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_05: It's pointing to an ego state.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_05: Like there's a part in IFS that's cons you know, e the which are ego states, right?
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_05: And ego meaning like self-absorbed, right?
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_05: And so that part feels like me, it's me, I'm the like the entire problem, right?
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_05: When the problem is social conditioning, energetic inheritance, codependent uh patterns, like you know, him, you, all is infinite things that are the problem.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_03: And um yeah, it's not I missed a I missed a question.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_03: Um grappling with something is him moving on to be perceived differently if he were the one who cheated.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, this is a beautifully nuanced.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_05: I'm so sorry you missed that question.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_05: So wait, is the c the so the context is he moved on uh quick and um quickly, quickly?
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_05: Is that the context?
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_05: He moved on quickly.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_03: Versus like I it's a little bit it's that um the guilt or the the shame is different, it's pivoted.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_05: I'm gonna go back to it doesn't matter, like the principles stand, right?
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_05: If if he moved on quickly and within that space he has addressed codependent cycles, then okay, maybe, but if he moved on quickly and he has not addressed codependent cycles, no, you're gonna have this, you're still gonna see the same cycle repeat itself.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_05: Does that answer the question?
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_05: No, it's like and and sometimes it takes years to see that, and maybe somewhere along the line somebody finds healing work inside of a marriage.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_05: But I think Tiffany and I would both say from clinical practice um that most people who come to marriage counseling don't make it.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_06: No, they don't.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_06: And I say that a lot, and it sucks, you know what I mean?
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_06: It sucks.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_06: But it's like by the time they get to us, somebody doesn't want to be there, somebody's already checked out, they're so fucked that like the communication, it's like they're just stuck in this cycle and everybody's angry.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_06: The firefighters are just so and so when you say divorce counseling, it resonates with me because I feel like that's a lot about what we do.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_06: It's giving people permission and validation to say this is not working.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_06: And that's not to say that marriage counseling doesn't work.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_05: Like I have so many couples I've worked with over the years that have completely redeemed their marriages.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_05: Yes, it's not, we are not in any way saying like, but it's the exception or it's it's a couple standard deviations from the hard work.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_06: And what I'm finding too is like I'm working with somebody specifically that I can think right now that like they're not trying to go back to something, they're trying to see if they can create something that never existed.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_06: Correct.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_05: That's the that's what happens so often in marriage counseling, right?
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_05: It's like, oh no, this whole thing has been built on codependent patterns.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_05: And we have to burn it down and start over.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_05: While maybe, maybe staying married.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_06: And I remember being in marriage counseling, and I'm using error quotes for those that can't see, but like literally I sat there and I remember it was like session two, and it was my first individual session with her, and she looked at me and and we talked for maybe 20 minutes.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_06: She grabbed a book off of her shelf, she put it on me and patted me on the arm, and she's like, You're done.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_06: And it was literally a book about divorcing because she's like and I was like, Oh, well, okay, you know what I mean?
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_06: Because she's like, You're you need to make a plan.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_06: She said, Because you are checked out.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_06: She's like, You're done.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_06: Uh and um, and then I think for me too, it was kind of one of those things where after I made the decision to exit the marriage, and then he kept wanting me back for a while, that turned me off.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_06: Cause I'm like, man, like then how could you come back to me after I did, you know what I mean?
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_06: I don't know.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_06: Like it was just kind of one of those things.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_06: It was weird.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_06: But I do think about the question about cheating, I it might be an ego state for men too to feel like if it's public like that, well, I'm gonna show her.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_06: Like I can get any woman I want to.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_06: I'm just gonna go out and like plow through whatever.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_06: Like, I don't know.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_06: I think everybody's different.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_05: All right, last question.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_05: Why does it feel like his happiness or whatever we're gonna call it, his addictive cycle, his dopamine hit, his happiness, whatever, is evidence that I didn't matter.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_05: Why does it feel like that?
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_05: I have an answer.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_05: Then you go.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_05: Because you don't have a clear sense of you mattering outside of the validation approval and all the other things of infinite other people in the world.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_05: And we all need, like, I can't tell you how many times in a week I'm gonna ask Joy or Tiffany or whoever, like, am I like, am I did I read that right or like whatever?
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_05: Like, it's I'm not saying that we shouldn't be seeking feedback from the world.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_05: Or I don't mean the world, our inner circle, right?
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, but really, really, really what I wish people, but obviously women, could really, really understand is that you have not yet built for yourself a sense of worthiness.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_05: It just never happened for whatever reason.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_05: I think it's part of the human condition, the dark night of the soul, like all the, you know, programming from family systems, like there's not a deep sense of worthiness.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_05: And so the only feedback you have is his rejection or the ending of the marriage.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_05: And that process of building a deep sense of worthiness is your current journey.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_05: That's the journey.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_06: And it's a lot, it's like making your whole identity about the marriage, right?
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_06: Like I can say with 100% confidence that if my current relationship would end, I would never question whether I mattered to him or whether it mattered.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_06: I know it did, right?
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_06: So it's like I have a totally different sense in it than I did in earlier relationships or my marriages before because it's different.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_06: Like I have such a sense of self and individual worth in this relationship that it's just it feels different.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_06: My whole identity is not wrapped up in him and our life together.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_06: Right.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_05: If you want to be one of the women sitting in the room next year, hop into cocoon.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_05: Come hang out with us.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_05: If you haven't uh hopped into the Heart Feet app and checked out the loneliness roadmap or um attended a workshop uh or joined VIP, like take the next step, right?
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_05: Here's your sign.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_05: Anything else?
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_05: Peace out from Myrtle Beach.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_05: All right, we love you so much.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_05: Peace.