Latest / The Mishlei Podcast / Mishlei 26:3 - A Rod for the Back of Fools (Part 1)

Transcript

Mishlei 26:3 - A Rod for the Back of Fools (Part 1) · The Mishlei Podcast

• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, first some bookkeeping.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so uh yeah, everyone knows I love Claude.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, but I've been playing with Astra, and Astra can now.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: I I I it so Claude was not able to retrieve text from Alatora, and I've been emailing Robin Novetsky about it.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, I don't know if there's something on my end or their end, but Astra can.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I created a skill where I can just say create a source sheet for Michelet, blah, blah, blah.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: And it'll put it, it'll take all the particular Mufarchment that I like from Alatora and from MG Keter and arrange them the way I wanted to.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: And uh and only a few mistakes, like like this alignment is uh slightly off.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't mean the alignment in an AI sense, but um uh but um and uh and then I I like to have Claude translate them because I don't like ChatGPT's translations as much, but it is incredible.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: So if anyone knows, I'm the reason I'm saying this here is if anyone knows how I can get Claude to get text off of Al Tora.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_05: I think it's on Al Tora's sense that they block all bots.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I think also, yeah, yeah.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, yeah, yeah, same thing.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so um, but apparently apparently Chat GPT uh can do it.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: So like uh, you know, it's cool.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it is incredible just how much time that saves me because it's just I have to copy and paste and like uh and then do formatting and stuff like that.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's just uh so it's very nice.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, anyway, uh so we are up to Mishlay 26.3.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: Uh shot uh I'm gonna pass that down.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: Umor, the shave it legave sealin.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: Uh these are all weird words, not all weird words, but how do you how do you translate it there?
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_09: An initial translation.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we've got here a shoot is a scourge or a whip, which by the way, I did not know that scourge I don't know if scourge is etymologically related to like whip.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: I thought scourge is like a plague.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: But maybe plague is the the figurative uh version and shoot is the uh and uh scourge is the literal one.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so anyway, so a whip for a horse, or literally for the horse, right?
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: Mesig, anyone know what a mesig is other than the uh the tamim or the thing?
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: So a mesig is a bridle, okay.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: A bridle for the donkey or donkey, as some New Yorkers say.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: The shave it legave casilim.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: And what's a shave it?
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, rod or staff, yeah.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: So I would say here, uh probably oh club.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: That's okay.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: So a uh a rod probably is better because I feel like rod is more associated with pun associated with punishment in English.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: Uh oh, sorry, it's and a rod for the gave xilin.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: What is it?
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: Gave anyone back, back so literally for the the back, uh for I guess for a it was literally for a back of fools.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so let's see what the minimalist mefarsum say here.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so we got Matustion who says shot is a sharvit the shavit.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: So he says a shot is a scepter or a staff or a rod, okay.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: Komokol shot.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I don't know if that is some sort of definitive.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's funny.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: The uh Claude translated as the sound of a whip, okay?
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: But I don't stavs don't make sounds.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I mean, yeah, so I I don't know.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: Sharvit though means uh means like a king's scepter.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: I just don't know why he's like going with that.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, mesig is uk in resin, as we lahanigbo bamesig.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: So um it's a I think that is a bridle, okay.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Claude said a halter.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what halter is.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then legave.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: So here he does translate gave as a uh legouf, not dovka the back, but the body.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, all right, so that is the Matustion.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the tafsir of Sadigon is according to um to Claude, like the whip, the sout for the horse, and the lash, the mikrah for the donkey.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: So is the staff for the back of the ignorant.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think ignorant is just the way that he translates uh Xilim.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and then Kafik says, uh, shoot is like a whip for the horse and the bra for the donkey, so is the rod for the back of the fools.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: He translated shot as sout.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: I guess that's clearly etymologically related in the Arabic, similar to the Hebrew, and is made of eight leather straps braided together, the work of a craftsman, until it becomes one round, long, twisted body.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: So, like a braided thingy, you know.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: I I I don't know like what that does beyond a regular whip.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like I've said, you know, like you see like the fancy uh horse drivers with the maybe, yeah, it could be.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_08: It might be that that's what it needs to need to be for it to be like flexible.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: Could be, I don't know.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, okay, and then mesig is a mikra, and these are the three leather straps braided together, and they have a wooden handle.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so just very, very specific uh implements for uh for your you know beating your uh donkey uh or sorry, your uh horse.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then uh the uh Amram Korak says a mesig is a stick, all right.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and then Targum Ksubim says a whip for the horse, a lash for the donkey, and a rod for the bodies of fools.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so uh as far as I'm concerned, none of these really are gonna matter.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like it seems like one of these things where where like it would have resonated back then, but it seems like even now the the main idea is you're hitting the animal.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, like we'll we'll take it for that unless we see otherwise.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so what are the oh sorry, I did not actually get the uh art scroll and uh my English translations.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, all right.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: If someone wants to check the art school, they can.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not gonna waste time getting uh more English stuff.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like it's gonna be more of the same.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: All right, what are the questions and problems here?
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Isaac.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_08: Um this might be jumping to a later question, but um what's the relationship between the two mashalim in the first half?
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, between the two mashalim uh in the first uh mashalim in in the first half.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, and then let's do our usual thing, which is like uh are they uh uh are they identical uh or two uh completely different mashalim um or two like um facets of the same mushal?
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's a question that's gonna come up a lot in this paragraph.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah, um I I'd say something that I think is different about this one than the uh the previous ones that we've seen is that the previous ones have have seemed like they're essentially like almost identical, but like the multiple machelum are multiple like examples of a certain type of thing.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: I mean the last one that we had uh or not well, okay.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: The last one did seem similar as the the two types of birds, but the uh the shellag and the cots, the kites and the the matar and the khat here do seem like two different ones.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_08: So I haven't I haven't listened to that recording yet.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah, yeah.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: So I think I think it's a it's good just a good standing question here.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, let's go with uh with the zoom people first.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: So let's go with uh Ellie and then Isaiah and then Schmul.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean I was gonna kind of just ask something similar to what Isaac said about um not just the two Michelin here, but also how it relates to the entire parac, because it does these the previous placif game also had like these two Michelle M.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_02: And it almost sounds like somewhat like poetically consistent, like you're kind of given giving multiple examples and giving like a lot of metaphor or analogy, but in the end, like yeah, I don't know why there's two in each of these.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think Alter mentioned that this is uh the style is the triplet, you know.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Isaiah.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, yeah.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_03: I guess I'm gonna ask like the two Michal, how do they relate to the to the last part of the PASIC?
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_03: Especially here here it seems like uh inconsistent to me, unless you're saying the fool is like a good like work servant or something like that.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_03: Then yeah, I don't know.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, okay, right.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: So how do they relate to the to the nimshal?
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um uh especially given the fact that you're not using the Xiel, the Xilin, uh in the same way that you're using these animals, right?
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Shmo.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_05: What exactly is the use of the show in the message?
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, okay.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: So you know what?
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: Let's actually let's just do the facts.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, like what facts are we supposed to assume uh about the Michalin?
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and this is the I'm putting this as a separate question because it stands regardless of how Davka or Lob Davka you take the Michalin, right?
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: So like like are these, you know, are these uh you know uh implements used to like signal these animals or punish them or uh guide them or something something else, right?
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh here we might be a little bit more dependent on the on the uh mufarshim than uh normal.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's really funny how like uh you know, let's say the tipor and the drawer, those shlomo or anchakhly scale are clearly talking about birds that were in their vicinity, and like already by the time people were not in Israel, then like they like the Roshonim had to like speculate on those.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: This, like people had these types of influence, like and were presumably fluent in them until like you know, last 150 years or so.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:52
  unknown: What was it?
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so a bridle is a um like a uh harness type thing on the the like a it's like a muzzle, it's like a muzzle, right?
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: But not to prevent it from biting, but to like direct it, I think.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah, it's the th yeah, the like equipment that's like on like the face of the horse that um that you use to to help like steer and control.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: So it does uh this one is more obviously different than uh like the shoot and the messic are more obviously different than the two types of birds, you know, let's put it that way.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: Other questions?
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, why are you hitting a Xiel, right?
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: So what what why are you hitting a XEL?
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and let's just uh say more specifically as well, what is that meant to accomplish?
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, oh yeah, that's a that's a good question.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna make that into a separate question.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll just say also, I don't think we've had, I feel like we haven't had a corporal punishment puzzle in a long time, even though that's like a subgenre in Mishlei, right?
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: So, like what can we uh infer about Michle's overall stance on corporal punishment uh as opposed to other methods of uh of Musir?
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: And then the uh other question here is what decision-making scenario is this talking about, right?
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like, is this a, you know, I'm gonna uh for lack of a better term, a uh a proactive method of guiding a XIL, uh, or is it reactive?
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: For example, like punishment, um, presumably punishment, but again, the the Mashong don't necessarily line up with that.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I guess to what extent, uh I maybe this is gonna be, hold on.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: This might be part of the first question, but I'll put it here.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, to what extent is this or bidyavid?
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: Uh in other words, like is the same this is the way that you should um you know uh interact with the Xil, or if all else fails, then do this.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, motion.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_07: Um what extent is the rod if the first the first parts are supposed to be like just two facets of the uh nip shall not is the what what extent is the rod supposed to punish and what extent is supposed to just fear?
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that is going to be encompass in question one or or question two about like what are the uh or question three, you know, in other words, I think I think we I think we got that one covered.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, and then who's doing the right?
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: That's a good question, also.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: Who is doing the striking of the XEL?
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: Uh does it matter?
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: Does it even matter?
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: What else?
• 12:56
  unknown: Yeah.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_05: It was talking to the Xiel is for that.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, who is it talking to?
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: Xiel.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the So this is funny, right?
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: So usually Misle does not talk to the Xiel, why not?
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah, because he's not reading Mishle, and he also doesn't respond to To Khaha.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: But if this is saying that this is what you use for the Xiel, maybe he would respond to this, right?
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like, like there are kids who are not open to To Khaha, but if they say like I'm gonna smack you, like they do listen to that, right?
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: So this this is actually one of the rare cases where this could actually be talking to the Xil.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: So this is the Xil, uh the one disciplining him or uh someone else.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: Is it talking to the horse?
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um uh oh, you know what we didn't ask about?
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: Also, hold on.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um what is I should say these the the implements in the mushroom.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then I also want to, you know, I'm gonna ask this question anyway, uh, because even though this I don't like this kind of question, but um I think here it might matter, is why are these words used specifically?
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so for example, um for example, um uh sheep, hang on, hang on.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: So shave it does have an association with punishment, okay, but it also has a uh an association with um like a you know uh a walking stick, right?
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um so so how many of these connotations are we supposed to uh to factor in here?
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Moja.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_07: If David is a uh hitting a stick I've hit with, um would you would you then ever is it is it then ever proper to give reward to the seal?
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_07: Because in the previous Pasokin, you're gonna like you shouldn't even give public at all.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so is that so this is one of these questions that I'm I'm a little on the fence about.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_07: I will write it down though, which is reading that, but that was I'm taking some the previous Paso King, which we talked about to make a reverse side.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I'm gonna put this over in this question about uh yeah, Mish like here.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, is like um similarly, um, where does reward rewarding the seal fit in?
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh uh, or let's just say positive reinforcement.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: Where does positive reinforcement uh fit in?
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: Uh is that a is that meant to be contemplated here, or is that a completely uh different uh topic, right?
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: So you could see it both ways, right?
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: In other words, like you could say you could see this being a commentary on positive incentives don't work, and that's why you have to do this, or rewards is just a completely separate thing, and he's not talking about that here.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: If he's a really good boy, you give him an apple.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, or a carrot, yeah.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: Sugar cube, salt lake, yeah.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_05: If we were to have the second plusic by kind of splitting the super succumbed seal.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh sorry, say that one more time.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_05: First possible was the Xiel, and then the second PUSUC was not right.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: That's so that that that is a question I was gonna I was hoping someone would ask you.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: Is like, what is the relationship between uh this PUSUC uh and the larger cluster, right?
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: So for example, um the next Psukim uh deal with Xilim.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, the next two are the ones I'm most eager to do, all right.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: Those are the classic ones.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um and uh the first PUSUC also did, but not the previous one, uh ostensibly.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh what do we make of that?
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: What do we make of that?
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: What is the cluster?
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: What is the cluster?
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like those are probably our major questions here.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_06: Does uh dying something?
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure he does, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um Isaac I have an idea.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yes, go ahead.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah, so um I think so, I think this is about how to get a seal to to do what you want.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_08: Okay.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_08: And I think it's um intentionally being disparaging to to Xilim.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_08: It's comparing them to animals.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_08: So just like, you know, if you want to get the the horse to to go the way you want, you have to move, you have to you have to whip it.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_08: And to get the um the donkey to move, you need the bridle to you know to control it.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_08: So to the implant for for getting axil to to to move is is a rod to the back.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_08: You know, as opposed to you know reasoning with him, try trying to like get him to understand why it's important, you know.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_08: You have to you have to just, you know, you know, you you've got your your your whip for for the for the horse, you got your bridle for the donkey, and your rod for the back of fools.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, okay, type method.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, okay.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: So you're saying that this is for the not even for someone giving to Kakaha, this is just someone who needs to harness the Xiel.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: For for some purpose, right?
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: It could be for the Xiel's benefit, it could be for your benefit, it could be for just you know society's benefit.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: So this is this is not commenting even on why you want to move the XIL, uh it's just giving you the method.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: All right, so then the obvious question is why is this necessary, right?
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh in other words, why don't those uh why don't those other methods work?
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: And by the way, like you know, if we want to not just take Shlomo Melch at his word, like you you can like you can reason with Xilin.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like in certain you know, every Xil is gonna have some way that you can like you know reason with him.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like, for example, like you know, I don't know, if you want the Xiel to turn in his homework, like you're not gonna be able to convince him that learning Lish Mah is good, but like there are Xilim who are motivated by grades, it's not like you have to hit them, right?
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: So um uh so the question is like, and is this really true, right?
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, Xilim uh are motivated every day by non-corporal punishment means.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, just look at just look at advertising or look at politics.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: You've got a lot of silim who are being moved by algorithms, and you got a lot of Xilim that are being moved by rhetoric.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah, to clarify, I'm not saying that it's uh uh I'm not taking shave it as uh I'm thinking shave it as lobdavka corporal punishment.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_08: Okay, but that but that it ha there has to be like like clear consequences to the to the to the to the seal.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, like getting stricken in the back.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so I'm gonna I'm gonna say that and then ask the question again.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so they're uh there you know it it it it's uh it's a it's a uh a mushroom for um clear clear personal painful consequences, right?
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_08: So then again, yeah, I'd say like something like like bad grades um because of how much value society places on on bad grades uh and things like that um is um the same type of of thing.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: So here's my problem.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: My problem is that I feel like if we start bringing up what about this case and what about that case, again do a thing where you just say, well, like you want another one?
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_08: That's achieve it, that's achievable, that's achieve it.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: No, not okay.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna mute yours, you all right.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um I was gonna say that um oh yeah, yeah.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: If we just ask a bunch of particulars, you're gonna get to say, well, graves really are like this, and like, you know, um, you know, Trump talking about Iran is really like this, and and like yeah, like I feel like we can't just like um we have to be honest here, you know.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: We can't just like like say everything is like a uh a gave Xilum.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I I know you're not saying that, but we need we do need to pin it down to something that's definitive, you know?
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: That's my uh that's my question.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Ellie, you have uh uh something to add to this idea or your own idea, your own approach?
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um somewhat similar.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um it was about how are we is this public specifically talking about getting the Xil to stop a negative behavior or to increase a certain desired behavior of the person?
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: So Isaac is saying is saying that it's not talking about either one specifically, and I think the Michalim plane shot of the Michalim is that you are you're using these implements for the animals for both, right?
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you want the donkey to go this way because that's the way you want to go, you use the messaging.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: And if you want to avoid something, then you also use the messages, and same thing with the with the show, you know.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: So I think I I agree with Isaac that this is not um this is not like this where it's telling you how to uh like improve the Casil's behavior for his own sake or something like that.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_02: So I was gonna is it more for the reader's sake, like for the person for I guess just as a means for lack of a better term to manipulate the Casile.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean that's exactly what Isaac is saying.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's saying that it's how to get.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so I guess I was thinking in a similar man title, but I have an explanation as to like why it is this way.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_03: Um and I think because I could feel his like his defining characteristic is that he's only motive he's motivated by like uh short-term like thinking or gratification.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_03: So like he wants to avoid avoid negative consequences, he just wants to avoid pain.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_03: So if you provide him with pain, then he'll go away from the direction of the pain, he'll go towards a thing that feels better.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um so in order to change his behavior, that's literally your only choice.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_03: Like other and it could be any kind of pain, but it's it I think it's like something that will be painful to him, versus other people who can take to Kafa, they can take um other types of motivation, but he isn't necessarily motivated by those things, but he's motivated by painful.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so that that is true.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: I I do want to take this moment though to ask a question that we didn't ask, and then I also want to um I also want to just uh um throw out a general question that should be on our mind this year.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so the question is what is the definition of a XEL uh in this context?
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so I because I'm in the beginning of my Michelai curriculum with my high schoolers, uh I'm I am starting off with Xiel Psukim, and I was reviewing the definition of Xiel according to my understanding.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um and my uh preferred definition is I'm just trying to think where I quoted it.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um I actually I think I'm gonna bring it up.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: Hold on just one second here.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um hold on.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: Uh this is a slight, it's not it's not off topic, but it is just broader than our posak.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um let's go with uh uh this one.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so so uh um what do you call it?
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh underrated Sadugon, okay, in munos videos.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um underrated because people don't learn emosvideos.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, but um okay, so he says like this.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um uh he's I'm just gonna read the English um because it's in Judeo Arabic anyway.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so he says, uh, there are two types of emuna, okay?
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: Belief, conviction, true and false.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: A true emuna is when one knows a thing to be as it really is, namely that much is much and little is little, and white is white and black is black, and that what exists exists, and what is non-existent is non-existent.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: Is that enough examples for everyone?
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you gotta love the uh the old old school style of side you're gonna like baki Makuda.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm gonna give you 10 examples, you know, just uh yeah, but I guess that's Michle also.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: The false imuna, on the other hand, you can see if you can guess this one, is when one knows the thing to be the opposite of what it is, such as that much is little, little is much, white is black, black is white, and what exists is non-existent, and what is non-existent exists.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, then he says like this.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and this is by the way, the first puzzle that I teach every time I teach Mishle.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: He says the praiseworthy Khacham is he who makes reality his foundation and directs his thinking in accordance with it.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: With his wisdom, he relies on what is deserving of trust and is wary of what ought to be guarded against.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: The reprehensible Ksil, on the other hand, is he who sets up his personal conviction as his foundation, assuming that reality is patterned after his belief.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: With his foolishness, he trusts in what should be shunned and shuns what is deserving of trust.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: This is what the wise man said in Mislay, Chakam Yarev Asarme Ra, Uksil mitzaber ubotea.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: A wise man fears and turns away from evil, but a fool becomes overbearing and trusts.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: Sadion might translate this as mitzaver, he transgresses and trusts.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, and then he gives examples, uh, more examples, but this is a good one.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: To this discourse, I pen the expression of my amazement at certain people who, being slaves, yet believe they have that they have no master.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I think this might be master, this is a metaphor of like master meaning God, and who rely on the assumption that whatever they reject is void and whatever they affirm is established.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: These are the ones who have plunged into the depths of folly and who have already reached the depths of perdition.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: For if they are right, let him among them who has no money take it into his head that his bank accounts and chests are filled with money and see what it would profit him, or let him take it into his head that he is 70 years old when he is really 40 years of age.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: You know that all people who are uh who are 70, or sorry, who are 40 really want to be 70, right?
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's like a desirable thing.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh um you see our culture here.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and or let him take it into his head that he is sated when he is hungry, or that he is has drunk his fill when he is thirsty, or that he is covered up when he is naked and see what his condition will be.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: Or let him among them who has a vicious enemy take it into his head that his enemy is dead, I perished, so that he no longer fears the latter.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: But oh, how quickly will he in such a case be overcome by the misfortune of what he of which he has no dread.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: And this is utter folly on the part of people who suppose that if they do not believe in God's divinity, they will be relieved of his commandments and his warnings, his recompense and his punishment, and the rest of what is like these.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: Of such as these scriptures said, let us break their bands asunder and cast off their cords from us.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: So he's he's defining, again, this is why I teach this as the first postag in Mishle.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: A Chacham uh recognizes, let me start.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: A Xil assumes that reality will align with his desires and his way of thinking.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_01: Achaum recognizes that his own desires and his own way of thinking might not be in line with reality, so he tries to change himself to be aligned with that.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: So the reason I'm bringing this up now is because um, according to my understanding, is a much deeper problem than what Isaiah mentioned.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: Isaiah mentioned uh that he is focused on the immediate.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: Now, it's true that the Xil is focused on the immediate, but in a different way than, for example, the avil or the axel.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so the avil, according to Sidigone in the Hugdamata, um actually, I don't know if he says this about the avial in the Hugdamata missionally, but my understanding of the avile is someone who is dominated by the pursuit of immediate pleasure.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: And the axel, the which we translate as the lazy person, uh, Sidigon says it's the person who uh has the compulsive need to avoid immediate pain and conflict.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, which by the way, fun etymological fact in English I discovered yesterday.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, etymology of indolent.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: Indolent comes from the Latin word indolence, which literally means insensitive to pain or painless, which I think so indolent is a very good Sidigone word for uh uh sorry, uh English word for Sidigones atel because it's someone who wants to avoid pain, you know.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I'm not saying Isaiah is wrong uh in in saying this, but I just want to call our attention to the fact that Iksil is much deeper.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: Aksil wants reality to align with his desires and beliefs, and that's the root perhaps of immediate pain and uh sorry, of avoiding immediate pain and seeking immediate pleasure.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: But my understanding is it's a much deeper disease than that.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that's also why on my Mishlayic spectrum, which I still can only get by going to my uh computer.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, it is, but it's so difficult um for uh the search engine to do it.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh uh, whatever the bad Bing search engine is.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um you clearly uh are someone who is okay having a messy desk.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I am not.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and I'm saying that as judgment about you, not about uh about your suggestions.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_07: You have to am I wrong?
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: Send me a picture.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh this is also why on the Michelle Spectrum I put the Aveal, uh sorry, I put the KSEL further to the bad side than the avile.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: My understanding is that the avile is just looking for immediate pleasure, but the seal is closer to the Russia in that he he expects reality to conform to his desires.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: And the Russia is the one who goes even further than that and seeks to actually attempt to alter reality and to create uh like to impose his own uh self-agonizing system onto reality to like ensure that that happens.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um okay, so that was again, it was slightly far afield, but because we're about to enter into a cluster of Psukim about Xilim, I thought I and because I'm I'm like thinking about this now, I wanted to just like refresh my current working definition of Xil.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so again, Isaiah, I'm not saying you're wrong, but um, but uh I'll just put this as a question here is like um like uh I'm gonna say like this more powerful than necessary question, okay, which is I understand that an od cell wants to escape to avoid uh immediate pain.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, but what is the specific specific relationship of a XEL to immediate pain?
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: And clearly there is one because there are all these about how you have the only way you can affect them is to put is to punish them, you know.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I I I want to just go one level deeper.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, that's uh end of my soapbox uh discussion about uh uh Xil.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, uh Ellie?
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, sorry, I think my hand was raised from last time.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: Avi um yeah, just a question and then I have an idea.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um this might be the same as question one, but is the the uh these means of like punishment or hitting, are we talking about actually hitting or just the threat of being hit?
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: So see that that's another thing that I don't like about Isaac's approach, which is that that uh to me the first half of this is a mushall, and the second half is the nimshall.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: And the nimshall I I think is talking about hitting a Xiel.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think it's talking about like like grades.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like I just don't think that that is uh honest reading of the puzzle, you know.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm I'm not totally close to the idea, I just don't think it's honest right now.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like like you can convince me, but I think it actually is hitting.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah, I actually want to take back what I said about it being gloved after purple punch rate.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, uh, I will cross it out.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then I have I have an idea that maybe it doesn't necessarily answer the question that you just asked.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I want to say that I mean I don't know if it's a full answer as much as it is just adding to um what was already said, but I think it's sort of describing the behavior of a Xil as being completely reactionary, right?
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: Just like the animals react to either the threat of being hit or being hit.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so too, the Xil is simply reacting to the uh the shaven, right?
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: Which I think is also a really nice contrast to the Chacham who's Roe S enola.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, that's really good.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so so just because uh just as animals can be controlled, I'm saying control here just to encompass like for good or for bad, controlled but uh because of the reactionary nature, so too, the XEL is reactionary, um and uh and that uh that nature is what allows you to um to I'm gonna say affect him in these ways, uh in in in in in a variety of uh I guess to affect him in this way.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um and uh in contrast, the um the chacham who is Ro S Hanolad, and just again PSA, even though uh uh Rabbi Moskowitz always quotes Pirke Avos for this, and I think people think that this is Pirke Avos, Pirke Avos does use the phrase Ro es Hanolad, but it does not define Chacham that way.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: It says, um, go uh and see what which is the derith that a person should uh choose for himself, I think, or which derith there's uh no, it's not easy chakam.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_08: Um yeah, yeah, it's um five tumidim of Rabbiuchamid Zakai.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, okay, hold on a second.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: Which parak is in the second pair?
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, uh so um I just I think it's important to just have uh the you know correct sources here because it's not just Ryan Maskwitz and people around here.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: People just are all often quote this as Pierre Kyabas, and you're just not gonna find it, like if you look.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it's Maseka's Tamid, by the way, so uh 32 uh, I think.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um so um sorry, sorry, Pierre Baze, yeah.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_01: I was going to Azu Kalam.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um I fell into my own trap.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um Roa S Anolad.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: So Umar lahem Turu Ezoderath Yesharash Yidbak Baha'Adam.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: And um uh Rubishiman says Haro S Anolad.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so just FYI.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: The actual one is in Tamid.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I'm gonna just verify it here.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: Tamid 32A.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_01: I think so.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's either 32A or 32b, but I just want to show it to you.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: With your own eyes, and you can tell someone I saw it with my own eyes, uh, which you can't say until right now.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh 32a.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Amr lah Idim Miskri Hakim Amrleh isu Hakim Horroz Anolad.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, good to know.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um okay, uh, so in in contrast, the Khachmuz Rosa Nolad uh is not reactive but proactive in avoiding consequences.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: All right, I think that's a really good.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: So this is something that is interesting, right?
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: Is that uh first of all, this does open up the application to be able to say things like what Isaac was saying, right?
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_01: Which is that it's not, oh sorry, not again, I'm not saying entirely, but it's not you don't according to Avi, I don't think you have to say that it is corporal punishment Davka.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_01: You could say it's something that is gonna make him react, you know, in a visceral way.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_01: Uh because that's the quality that's being uh uh taken.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Shmoel.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_05: I think just like that, is that the other thing to the way that's kind of fine against SEO?
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_05: That the XEAL doesn't take like anything that's just reality, he's just gonna bend up towards whatever he thinks.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_05: Therefore, he needs to actually reveal to them and it's he needs to be reacting to something real that actually changes the widths.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, okay, good.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: So so uh uh because the XEL uh is programmed to take anything that happens and uh and well, I guess sorry, is to to assume that reality will bend to his will, the only way to break through to uh through that is by confronting him uh with uh I think that's bad English.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: Confronting him by I don't know, I'll I'll just use bad English, confronting him with a uh with something uh that uh is real to him that is opposed to his will, right?
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: Uh namely a painful stimulus that he can't just ignore.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_01: Is that is that capture your point?
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: Are you yeah, okay, good.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Isaac?
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah, so I'd say this is this is really what I was trying to say.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_08: I wasn't yeah, um Yeah.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_08: Um I do think that that it is uh also, you know, like I like I said, being intentionally disparaging to him, you know, when it when it compares him to to animals.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so so having said that we are no longer forced to say that uh Shavit Legave Xilim uh is specifically a corporal punishment, uh that example is just used because it is a uh an excellent uh paradigm, okay, in the Nimshal.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and reinforces our uh yeah, uh the the uh the the the implication uh that a Casil uh is is animal like.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I think that's good.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Moja.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_07: I want to um comment on what I think is like the specific scenario this is talking about.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_07: And that is that even though uh like I'm speaking of jobs that don't give a still still cover, insofar as it's not a child, yeah, right.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_07: There are situations where you will have to deal with someone who is still and is in power, or you have to work with them, or whatever the case is that you will have to deal with someone.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_07: This is saying that this, you know, these are the um like a bold approach, the purely um like reality-scattering way, uh is the only way to deal with them.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_07: However, I think that calling him a you know uh a comorb is actually intended for him, but also uh also caught us that insofar as we are uh that's the positive amor, you know, that's we shouldn't be viewing people as animals.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_07: But it's reminding me like round on the terms like why you think you know uh mistreat animals, is that it's gonna actually be to real consequences of behavior.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_07: So I I could be ideas meaning this that in the present too much simply saying that, but insofar as you are treating a fool with like this, you know, demeaning behavior that could eventually uh uh reflect on something broader of you, and that you should always keep in mind that this is not like a video of the way you treat someone.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_01: So uh I'm I'm laughing because first of all, the Ramam is the one who says that most human beings fall into either the category of chaos or behemos, right?
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, so like uh yeah, but uh um I so are you but just to to then address what you're saying, is are you saying that viewing him as an animal could cause you to uh well what is the exact problem?
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_07: Is it that you're gonna underestimate him, or is it that you're going to be saying you either might like by default always streaming an animal even when even when he starts improving, or they might just start shooting other people like animals this way, even if they're not full in the first place.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so I'll just put there there is a risk to viewing any human being as an animal, okay?
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and even though the PUSOK frames it that way, uh we need to be careful and recognize uh that this is a human being, okay.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but I'm gonna say, nevertheless, the comparison uh is apt and deliberate.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, yeah, right, right.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so I think it's a good warning, but I don't think it affects the uh the idea.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh anyone else have another approach?
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_01: If not, yeah, yeah, go ahead.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_04: Why are we saying this is the point where the steel?
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_04: Like, why is this like why is this for triggering work with the next steel?
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_04: We're saying you just define the in his head he thinks he's defining whatever is in front of him still.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_01: So I think the file I do think that what Schmuel said is the key here, which is that like his whole modus operanda is to like warp reality to be self-serving, that this is doing like this is for me and is advancing my goals and my values.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_01: So like, and he's just gonna steamroll ahead.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that's like the uh, you know, I again I think that's the um the one of the readings of that Pazak Sadion uh quoted of Mis Abir Boteaf, Mis Abir is from the word avar, which means to pass, and then Mis Abir is is he's pael is to make himself pass.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_01: He's just gonna like barrel through.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: So the only way to stop him is to again bad English, to confront him with something that he just can't use that way of framing for.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_01: And he's just forced to realize that, oh, like this is not yielding to my will, you know.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's just the only way to stop someone who who does that.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_04: Saji's example is not certain.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_04: He's telling much is less.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_04: Like he's not actually looking at the case.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_01: Well, here's the thing he can think much as less.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly, because that's still abstract.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_01: Or in the cases that he was talking about, uh my favorite example he used is um is uh, you know, you think your enemies you just believe their enemy's dead and he's gonna be gone.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_01: He'll think that until his enemy is at his throat with a knife, you know, and same thing with the hunger, like you can you can uh tell yourself that, like, oh, I'm just gonna, you know, uh I'm gonna manifest food in my song, you know.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but like when you are dying of hunger, you're not gonna be able to do that anymore.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I do think that there's a breaking point where where you can't deny the fact that this reality is not what you want, you know, and then and then and then the teal has to has to he has to do something.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: Now he I think that is really the place of Isaiah's idea, which is that his first move is gonna be to just try to avoid the pain, but not because of the same reason that the Otzel does, of the just, you know, this is a painful stimulus.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_01: This is more of like an existential, like, I cannot accept the reality that is something that is like not going my way.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_01: So he'll he'll he'll he'll ignore that.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't think he's gonna like then look for some constructive way to make reality go in his way.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_01: That's a good clarifying question, though.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_01: All right, let's do this.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_01: Let's do what we often uh did last year.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_01: Let's read the Mitsudas David and then um and then think about it for for tomorrow.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so I'm just gonna use it from here instead of the Torasheim.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_01: Matsudas David Shot.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_01: Hine Shot Hukan Lahakos Bohasus.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_01: So he said, uh what do you say a shoot was?
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh a shavit, okay, and a shavit, which is just weird that the puzz itself says shavit later on, but okay.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean maybe that's good.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe that's so shot, hine shot huh, lahakos bohasus.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_01: So shot is is uh is designed or is designated to um hit a horse.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_01: Ulaha toso had uh to uh steer it on the path.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_01: Umor lamoshko bo el mokum hanirta.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so he is learning it as both forms of guidance, um, but one is through um making it turn, the other is through pulling it.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, that's how you really tell you with the messages you pull it and it tilts its head this way and gets you to, you know, um gets it to think to know that you want it to go that way.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_01: The shavit, huhim, liastro lazov ivalto, kilo yivaser, I think it's yivaser bedvarim.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um uh so to a shavit is set to the back or the body of the Xilim to chastise him to abandon his folly because he will not be uh uh punished with words, or he will not be chastised with words.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so the question, as always, when we really do a good job on the shot, is this saying something beyond what we're saying?
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_01: You know, uh I don't think, by the way, just to rule out something, I don't think it means uh Ivalto.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think it means to to totally make him not an Aveel anymore.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think it means in the particular case, yeah.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_01: So he's a Xil.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_01: One interesting thing is that there are a lot of Psukim that ascribe, guys.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_01: Can you talk uh just somewhere else?
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um uh one of the um uh I I think there are a lot of Psukim that ascribe uh Avilus to a Xil.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and that might be because of what we said, which is that he is focused on the short term, but because of a deeper malady, you know, of wanting reality to bend his uh will or assuming it will.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, let's stop here and uh continue tomorrow with Mufarshan.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_01: All right, see ya.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.