Latest / Real Crime with Adam Shand / Authority and Humanity: Policing with Heart | Corey Allen

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Authority and Humanity: Policing with Heart | Corey Allen · Real Crime with Adam Shand

0:05
Speaker 1: Appoche production.
0:14
Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shann. I'm your host,
0:16
Speaker 2: Adam shand my guest today. When he was sixteen, won
0:20
Speaker 2: a national literary contest, he was interviewed by the local
0:23
Speaker 2: paper about his ambitions, to which the young Corey Allen replied,
0:27
Speaker 2: I'd like to write books, telling that I'll be a journalist.
0:32
Speaker 2: Nearly forty years later, Corey is in a position to
0:35
Speaker 2: fulfill that ambition after a thirty eight year sidetrack into
0:39
Speaker 2: the Queensland Police Service. And Corey was no ordinary police officer.
0:45
Speaker 2: In many ways, he didn't fit in and fought against
0:48
Speaker 2: the prevailing norms. I first met him about fifteen years
0:51
Speaker 2: ago when I attended a homeless summit in Brisbane. Queensland
0:55
Speaker 2: Police facing mounting criticism over treatment of homeless people in
0:59
Speaker 2: Brisbane CBD. At a time when Queensland Police spent more
1:03
Speaker 2: time arresting homeless people for not moving on, Corey sought
1:07
Speaker 2: a different path through empathy. Brisbane City Police to trial
1:12
Speaker 2: new engagement strategy aimed at reducing repeat arrests. As the
1:18
Speaker 2: uniform boss of Australia's largest police station, Brisbane City, he
1:22
Speaker 2: set up to understand the roots of homelessness and to
1:25
Speaker 2: connect vulnerable people with services to get them off the street.
1:29
Speaker 2: Police partner with outreach teams in new push to link
1:33
Speaker 2: rough sleepers with housing support. He encouraged his officers to
1:38
Speaker 2: get to know the street people, not just when things
1:41
Speaker 2: went wrong, but before. What he gleaned from this experience
1:45
Speaker 2: changed the course of his career and that of many
1:48
Speaker 2: other police not to mention the lives of many vulnerable people.
1:52
Speaker 3: Crime statistics fall in Brisbane CBD following shift in policing approach.
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Speaker 3: One senior Queensland officer says empathy may be the most
2:02
Speaker 3: powerful crime fighting tool.
2:05
Speaker 2: Chief Inspector Corey Allen has recently retired from his last
2:09
Speaker 2: post as the Manager of Field Training at the Queensland
2:12
Speaker 2: Police Academy, providing development and education to more than five
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Speaker 2: hundred thirst year constables and twenty eight hundred in service constables.
2:22
Speaker 2: And it's my pleasure to welcome Corey to the Real
2:25
Speaker 2: Crime Studio.
2:26
Speaker 4: Correct, good morning.
2:28
Speaker 5: Where'd you dig that old article up about my first
2:31
Speaker 5: adventure into the literary Well, that's interesting.
2:34
Speaker 2: You forget that You've told me a lot over the years.
2:36
Speaker 2: We've spoken a lot, and you're one of the people
2:38
Speaker 2: that I follow in my career because you want people
2:41
Speaker 2: who are going against the norm, whether they're crooks or police,
2:45
Speaker 2: the ability to change their lives and those around them,
2:49
Speaker 2: and you typify that spirit. You're almost an accidental police officer.
2:56
Speaker 2: How did it happen?
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Speaker 5: Well, it's not something that I planned on, and you know,
3:02
Speaker 5: I think about what costs and police were like in
3:05
Speaker 5: the eighties and Queensland. Like, my experience growing up with
3:07
Speaker 5: cops was that you walked on the other side of
3:09
Speaker 5: the road because you get a smack in the head
3:11
Speaker 5: if you look sideways Adam in Queensland. So I'd been
3:15
Speaker 5: an unsuccessful officer in the army and was quite embarrassed
3:18
Speaker 5: that I tossed away my career in the army to
3:21
Speaker 5: follow love as much as love can be loved when
3:24
Speaker 5: you're eighteen or nineteen. And when that didn't work out,
3:27
Speaker 5: I ended up sleeping in a park and sleeping on
3:30
Speaker 5: a couch and sleeping at friends places.
3:33
Speaker 4: Some of my friends had joined the cops from school
3:35
Speaker 4: and they said, no, it's not as bad as you think.
3:36
Speaker 4: It's great.
3:37
Speaker 5: So I applied to join. Oddly past all the tests,
3:40
Speaker 5: so I was a smart cookie. But when they measured me.
3:43
Speaker 5: I was a centimeter too short the end of the day,
3:45
Speaker 5: so I had to come back a couple of weeks
3:48
Speaker 5: later after stretching myself and working out that when you
3:51
Speaker 5: get measured in the afternoon, you're probably a little bit
3:53
Speaker 5: shorter than the morning because your spine compressores. So my
3:57
Speaker 5: doctor said, if you get measured first thing in the morning,
3:59
Speaker 5: there's a good chance you'll get that one centimeter.
4:02
Speaker 4: So I stretched myself.
4:03
Speaker 5: I hung upside down in those bloody inversion boots, and
4:07
Speaker 5: one of my mates took great to light spinning around
4:09
Speaker 5: on the clothesline at the back of his place.
4:11
Speaker 4: One morning, I laid down the back of his car.
4:13
Speaker 5: We drove into police headquarters, so I didn't decompress on
4:16
Speaker 5: the way in. And this really nice I wish I
4:19
Speaker 5: knew she was. This really nice police women said, come
4:20
Speaker 5: on in, little fellow, we'll give you another go.
4:22
Speaker 4: You only had one set of meat. I explained that theory.
4:25
Speaker 5: I didn't tell her I had three pairs of socks
4:27
Speaker 5: on because I knew they didn't take your socks off.
4:30
Speaker 4: And I made the height that day and that day only.
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Speaker 5: So it become this corny analogy that I've had to
4:35
Speaker 5: stretch myself for the last thirty nine years, and the
4:38
Speaker 5: cops just to do the job. But yeah, I definitely
4:41
Speaker 5: was an accidental cop, and that was clear when I
4:44
Speaker 5: first joined because I thought, well, I'm a bit different
4:46
Speaker 5: from some of these blokes and women, but there are
4:49
Speaker 5: a few people like me. We formed little groups, and
4:51
Speaker 5: we formed our little tribe, and we ended up being
4:54
Speaker 5: a prevailing force in the police in a lot of ways.
4:57
Speaker 2: But why did you divert from your original desire to
5:02
Speaker 2: become a writer.
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Speaker 5: Well, I wrote some stuff, and I got in the
5:06
Speaker 5: Courier mar and I wrote some stuff and at won prize.
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Speaker 4: But it was more like that stuff. For me.
5:10
Speaker 5: It was coping when I was going through a shitty
5:12
Speaker 5: life at home when I was a kid, and I
5:14
Speaker 5: had a fantastic English teacher who was just a great
5:16
Speaker 5: role model and kept giving me interesting things to read,
5:18
Speaker 5: interesting things.
5:19
Speaker 4: To write, and he knew I was having a shit
5:21
Speaker 4: time at home, so that was fantastic.
5:23
Speaker 5: But I wasn't successful when I put in for the
5:26
Speaker 5: cadetship in the Courier Male because they thought I was
5:29
Speaker 5: fifteen at the time. They asked me to come in
5:31
Speaker 5: for an interview because i'd published something. Then they realized
5:33
Speaker 5: I was just a kid and I hadn't actually done
5:36
Speaker 5: any studies. So my very first job I worked as
5:39
Speaker 5: the offside to do the press secretary for the Minister
5:41
Speaker 5: for Transport in Queensland, and he was an exceedingly lazy
5:45
Speaker 5: bloke who would give me all his work to do,
5:47
Speaker 5: so I ended up writing speeches for Yuckie Peterson. I
5:50
Speaker 5: wrote speeches for the Minister, I edited the Railway Journal,
5:54
Speaker 5: did all these little jobs that no one else wanted
5:56
Speaker 5: to do while they were boosing it up and having
5:58
Speaker 5: a good time. But my dad had been in the Army,
6:01
Speaker 5: I'd been in cadets. I applied to join the Air
6:03
Speaker 5: Force in the Army at the same time. We should
6:05
Speaker 5: have taken the Air Force job. But I suppose you
6:07
Speaker 5: always want to live up to what your dad wants.
6:09
Speaker 5: But writing has stayed with me ever since. I've always
6:12
Speaker 5: written in my spare time, written effectively to try and
6:16
Speaker 5: tell a good story.
6:17
Speaker 4: And still there, still there, and I'm not done yet.
6:22
Speaker 2: Well, when the crime drama featuring the cop Kyl Matthews
6:25
Speaker 2: turns up, I'll know that you've gone back to your
6:27
Speaker 2: first love.
6:28
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm still working on that. It's getting better and better,
6:31
Speaker 5: and for different reasons. I really found it out. I
6:33
Speaker 5: started writing that about nineteen ninety four to tell all
6:36
Speaker 5: these stories I thought were awesome. And then as I
6:39
Speaker 5: grew up and as I changed as a cop, I
6:41
Speaker 5: look back at those stories and they went actually that awesome,
6:45
Speaker 5: Like you think, that's actually not that great, But I
6:50
Speaker 5: think it's a story that needs to be told in
6:52
Speaker 5: the way I'm trying to tell it. Because people sort
6:55
Speaker 5: of eulogize the police in the eighties particularly, I've read
6:58
Speaker 5: a lot of books lately where they say, God, it
7:00
Speaker 5: was great back then, back in those days, But you
7:02
Speaker 5: know what, they actually weren't by the good days they
7:04
Speaker 5: went good days for a lot of people that had
7:06
Speaker 5: contact with the cops. I didn't find them that great.
7:09
Speaker 5: You know, A lot of cops I worked with were
7:11
Speaker 5: not the nicest people. There were a lot of really
7:13
Speaker 5: great people, a lot of cops there that were just
7:14
Speaker 5: rough and ready and nasty and drinking all the time.
7:18
Speaker 5: And you know, you really had to pick your friends closely.
7:20
Speaker 4: I was lucky.
7:21
Speaker 5: I had some really good mentors, and I found some
7:23
Speaker 5: really good friends early that kept me out of trouble
7:25
Speaker 5: and kept me away from you know, the cops that
7:27
Speaker 5: were more likely to give you a clip across the
7:30
Speaker 5: year than they were to help you out. So it's
7:32
Speaker 5: interesting I showed that to someone else recently and they said,
7:35
Speaker 5: this is an important story to tell because that period
7:38
Speaker 5: of policing in Australia has been sort of glorified for
7:42
Speaker 5: some people, saying how great it was. We used to
7:44
Speaker 5: kick us and take names and that's how cops used
7:46
Speaker 5: to be. But for a lot of people it wasn't
7:47
Speaker 5: like that, you know, for First Nations people, it wasn't
7:49
Speaker 5: like that. You know, for kids on the street, it
7:51
Speaker 5: wasn't like that. For the people that got dealt with
7:53
Speaker 5: them and family, it wasn't like that. You know, we
7:56
Speaker 5: had an inquiry about the whole way policing happened back then.
8:00
Speaker 2: Yes, because your early years and the cops were you
8:05
Speaker 2: were headed towards the tactical side.
8:07
Speaker 4: Yeah, I was very drawn to that.
8:09
Speaker 5: Yeah, how did that happen? Well, I'd been in the army.
8:12
Speaker 5: I liked all that stuff. I had good skills. I'd
8:14
Speaker 5: always grown up oddly for a person that's quite a
8:17
Speaker 5: pacifist now, I always grew up with weapons and you know,
8:20
Speaker 5: shooting and going out hunting and doing that type of
8:23
Speaker 5: field stuff with cadets in the Army.
8:25
Speaker 4: So I thought it'd be a waste if I didn't
8:27
Speaker 4: do that.
8:27
Speaker 5: So I did selection for this what's called now the
8:29
Speaker 5: CERT Team, the Special Eminency Response.
8:31
Speaker 4: Team, which is another story in itself.
8:33
Speaker 5: Because I did selection, I'd only been in the job
8:35
Speaker 5: for eighteen months and you don't normally get a go,
8:38
Speaker 5: but they gave me a selection. It's a bloody three months,
8:42
Speaker 5: you know, the least equivalent of the SAS course. I
8:44
Speaker 5: suppose SA selection nowhere here is hard. And I got
8:48
Speaker 5: through the whole thing, finished the whole selection, topped some
8:51
Speaker 5: of the exams and got one hundred percent for a
8:53
Speaker 5: lot of the written stuff, to the point where they
8:56
Speaker 5: thought I had been cheating, so they made me do
8:58
Speaker 5: the exams again.
8:59
Speaker 4: But I just loved it. I was made for that stuff.
9:01
Speaker 5: And then just before graduation, we were walking over to
9:04
Speaker 5: get our photo take and then one of the instructors said, oh,
9:06
Speaker 5: you're not graduating. I said, what do you mean. He goes, oh,
9:09
Speaker 5: you just kind of didn't fit in. You know, you're
9:11
Speaker 5: not the same personality as some of these guys. But
9:14
Speaker 5: you can come back next year and do it again.
9:16
Speaker 5: I sucked for a while. To be honest, they probably
9:18
Speaker 5: weren't right.
9:19
Speaker 4: I was very young.
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Speaker 5: These guys who went through were older than me, so
9:23
Speaker 5: I had to come back the following year. I did
9:25
Speaker 5: all the entry courses again. I did the whole selection again.
9:29
Speaker 5: Of course I knew everything was coming, and I got
9:32
Speaker 5: through with a group of people who are more my advantage.
9:35
Speaker 5: So I ended up having to do that selection for
9:37
Speaker 5: the Special Weapons Team twice, which is three months of torture.
9:41
Speaker 4: I'll tell you I did that for a little while.
9:43
Speaker 5: Then the Public Safety Response Team kicked off, which was
9:46
Speaker 5: brand new, and I was promoted to sergeant in that
9:49
Speaker 5: very early I'd only been in the job for seven years.
9:51
Speaker 4: I was a very young sergeant and that was probably one.
9:54
Speaker 5: Of the most fun times in my life, kicking off
9:56
Speaker 5: a squad learning how to handle protests in Queensland. Because
9:59
Speaker 5: you think about protests in Queensland, the history of protest
10:03
Speaker 5: in Queensland, finishing off some work writing a protest commander's
10:07
Speaker 5: course at the moment before I finished, finally, and you
10:11
Speaker 5: think about what protest was like back then, when bickipeds
10:13
Speaker 5: and our people on the streets.
10:15
Speaker 4: You weren't allowed to even walk on a street.
10:16
Speaker 5: You know, police were well known for the violent confrontations
10:20
Speaker 5: to where we are now because we facilitate protest.
10:23
Speaker 4: In queens lamb where you keep it safe.
10:25
Speaker 5: We coordinate with people, we negotiate with people, and you
10:28
Speaker 5: won't see the same disturbances you'll see elsewhere protest in
10:31
Speaker 5: Queensland because of that. The way we set it up
10:34
Speaker 5: in the early days, where we thought we're not going
10:37
Speaker 5: to fight everyone that wants to just have their say.
10:39
Speaker 5: What if we just spoke to them and found out
10:42
Speaker 5: who the leaders were and negotiated with them and gave
10:44
Speaker 5: them a spot to set up. I looked after every
10:47
Speaker 5: protest against Pauline Hanson in Queensland. I was particularly tasked
10:50
Speaker 5: with that and we never had any huge conflict that
10:53
Speaker 5: they did elsewhere because we would meet with the head
10:57
Speaker 5: head of the protest groups, if we've got to identify them,
11:00
Speaker 5: negotiate a place for them to be. We would facilitate
11:03
Speaker 5: their protest. We'd give them bottles of water and help
11:05
Speaker 5: them out if we could. They could have their protest
11:07
Speaker 5: even if we didn't agree with it, as long as
11:09
Speaker 5: no one got hurt and as long as there was
11:10
Speaker 5: no over the top behavior. We've had a lot of
11:14
Speaker 5: protests in Queensland that go very peacefully because that time
11:17
Speaker 5: was set in a very early day by some people
11:19
Speaker 5: at the PSrT and at the stations where these protests
11:24
Speaker 5: would manage.
11:25
Speaker 2: Sure, because in that sort of a role, you don't
11:29
Speaker 2: learn or spend much time talking to people.
11:31
Speaker 1: It's about action, it's about public safety.
11:34
Speaker 4: Yeah.
11:34
Speaker 5: In between that the protests, we were deployed to places
11:37
Speaker 5: where they needed extra police presence, and I'll be honest,
11:41
Speaker 5: I don't think I handled that as well as I
11:43
Speaker 5: could have. We kind of went into towns and arrested
11:45
Speaker 5: everybody and then left. And they said, there were just
11:48
Speaker 5: these assholes from Brisbane that came up. And you know,
11:51
Speaker 5: we never brecked anybody, but if you look sideways, you
11:53
Speaker 5: did get arrested. And we never bashed anybody, but if
11:56
Speaker 5: you resisted, you got dealt with pretty firmily. So and
12:00
Speaker 5: I thought I was God's gift to policing they and
12:01
Speaker 5: arrest in the world and letting the court sort it out,
12:04
Speaker 5: until I realized that were probably over policing and acting
12:08
Speaker 5: too quickly. And it happened when I got quite a
12:11
Speaker 5: lot of complaints about how I was behaving in one year,
12:16
Speaker 5: and they profiled me.
12:17
Speaker 4: Ethical standards profiled me.
12:19
Speaker 5: And I looked at all my complaints that I was
12:20
Speaker 5: quite indignant, and I thought, jeez, I'm procedurally very correct.
12:23
Speaker 4: You know, I always follow the law.
12:26
Speaker 5: I just don't tolerate giving any leeway and I don't
12:29
Speaker 5: take any shit. And I arrested everybody we possibly could
12:31
Speaker 5: because I thought that was our job. So when I
12:34
Speaker 5: started to record everything I did on a little micro cassette,
12:37
Speaker 5: I realized I was probably part of the problem because.
12:39
Speaker 4: I actually wasn't listening to anybody.
12:41
Speaker 5: I was pretty much trying to get the elements of
12:43
Speaker 5: an offense out of everybody you spoke to. And then
12:45
Speaker 5: if we wanted to fight, great, because we were the
12:47
Speaker 5: biggest arm gang in Queensland where we were trained and exercised,
12:52
Speaker 5: and we were the best in Australia and all that stuff.
12:54
Speaker 5: We were excellent at time people up the nuts without
12:56
Speaker 5: doing a long term damage. So if I got a
12:58
Speaker 5: chance to do that, we would. But that bit of
13:01
Speaker 5: an epiphany changed my whole approach to policing, where I thought, geez,
13:04
Speaker 5: what if you actually spoke to people, you tried to
13:06
Speaker 5: sort out what the problem was, and you gave them
13:09
Speaker 5: a bit of time to talk. Maybe I would have
13:12
Speaker 5: an easier life. And I've had an easier life ever since,
13:14
Speaker 5: and I think I'd been more effective ever since because
13:16
Speaker 5: I stopped just trying to hit every nail with the
13:19
Speaker 5: hammer I was carrying and started to talk to people
13:22
Speaker 5: with respect and handle them differently and model different behaviors.
13:26
Speaker 5: But for a long time, we would go into a town,
13:29
Speaker 5: they flew us to Charter's Towers for a B and
13:30
Speaker 5: S bar.
13:31
Speaker 4: Once we arrested seventy five people in one night.
13:33
Speaker 5: We settled some scores for the local police that pointed
13:36
Speaker 5: out particular people that were like problematic in the town,
13:39
Speaker 5: and when they did the wrong thing.
13:41
Speaker 4: We jumped on them.
13:42
Speaker 5: I didn't realize that for two years they'd never had
13:44
Speaker 5: that event, and we ruined a good social event that
13:47
Speaker 5: probably did a lot of community good because they were
13:49
Speaker 5: scared these blokes from Britain.
13:50
Speaker 4: Were going to come back and wipe everyone out again.
13:53
Speaker 5: So I felt quite awful that, jeez, the way we
13:56
Speaker 5: policed that ruined a community event that probably did some good.
13:59
Speaker 4: We could have policed it differently, and.
14:01
Speaker 5: Thank goodness, we do police it a lot differently now
14:03
Speaker 5: we organized and facilitate minimize the heart.
14:07
Speaker 2: Right because to that point, what had you been taught
14:11
Speaker 2: about speaking to people? Was that an important part of
14:14
Speaker 2: your training at all?
14:16
Speaker 5: There was no training look back now and think it
14:19
Speaker 5: was interesting to stuff that we were taught in. A
14:21
Speaker 5: lot of roat learning, legislation, a lot of procedure stuff,
14:25
Speaker 5: and they kind of expected you or pick that stuff
14:27
Speaker 5: up from your partner or the people you work with,
14:29
Speaker 5: and you certainly did because if you worked with a
14:32
Speaker 5: good guy, and I did work with a good guy.
14:34
Speaker 5: JV was a great partner, my first guy as a
14:37
Speaker 5: guy with a fantastic sense of humor, which was great,
14:39
Speaker 5: but you kind of modeled the behaviors you're around. So
14:43
Speaker 5: but if you work with someone that was an asshole,
14:45
Speaker 5: there's a good chance you were going to have a
14:47
Speaker 5: little bit of that rub off. There was nothing like,
14:49
Speaker 5: this is the way we want you to speak for
14:51
Speaker 5: these reasons, And we didn't get to that for a
14:54
Speaker 5: very long time, and I'm glad that I had a
14:56
Speaker 5: little bit to do with that. In the cops that
14:58
Speaker 5: we know, we teach police how to talk and why
15:00
Speaker 5: to talk certain ways and why it works and we
15:03
Speaker 5: understand that. You know, showing respect, listening to people, showing
15:07
Speaker 5: a better empathy is not just a nice thing to do,
15:10
Speaker 5: it's bloody essential. Now the cops are dealing with domestic violence,
15:13
Speaker 5: it's complex. Someone's just going to talk to you if
15:16
Speaker 5: you're very procedural and you're not engaging and you're not listening.
15:18
Speaker 5: We're dealing with kids with mental health crisis. We're dealing
15:22
Speaker 5: with complex, protracted problems. The amount of times cups to
15:25
Speaker 5: talk on people down from suicide these days is the
15:28
Speaker 5: community to be astounded if they learn how many times cops,
15:31
Speaker 5: young cops have to talk to someone to stop them
15:33
Speaker 5: from killing themselves now because there's no mental health support
15:35
Speaker 5: for them and we're the only people that come. So
15:38
Speaker 5: that personal journey was quite important when it came time
15:41
Speaker 5: for me to have a bit of say over that
15:43
Speaker 5: stuff down the trap.
15:45
Speaker 2: You did a ted X talk I think in twenty
15:47
Speaker 2: sixteen called crime Fighting with Empathy, and I'll put that
15:51
Speaker 2: in the show notes so people can actually learn more
15:53
Speaker 2: about what you did.
15:54
Speaker 1: But how did you come to that view?
15:58
Speaker 2: I guess it coincided with your posting to the Brisbane
16:02
Speaker 2: City Police Station, which at the time was fairly trouble.
16:06
Speaker 1: What was going on.
16:08
Speaker 5: Well, City police were like many other stations at the
16:11
Speaker 5: time where they didn't really have an understanding of what
16:15
Speaker 5: was happening for people on the street. So you know,
16:18
Speaker 5: they brought with them an expectation that I'll just move
16:20
Speaker 5: this person on, or I'll just deal with them pretty
16:22
Speaker 5: quickly and that'll be it. When we know now you
16:26
Speaker 5: know someone that's got complex, multi layered issues on the street,
16:29
Speaker 5: and there's more and more of.
16:30
Speaker 4: Them than ever before.
16:32
Speaker 5: And I don't respond well to move on directions. We
16:35
Speaker 5: come across like wellies if that's all we've got to offer.
16:38
Speaker 5: And I know our individual cops over the years that
16:41
Speaker 5: have done shown empathy and kindness and respect to people
16:44
Speaker 5: when they're in their worse have been really successful. But
16:48
Speaker 5: at the city at the time, there were a number
16:50
Speaker 5: of complaints rolling on around police using excessive force, police
16:54
Speaker 5: moving homeless people on, police dealing with young people on
16:57
Speaker 5: the street very roughly, and they really had no direction
17:01
Speaker 5: around what else they could do.
17:03
Speaker 4: I just found it was frustrated.
17:05
Speaker 5: They'd been a video with a police arresting a man
17:08
Speaker 5: called Rowe who was sixty three and was washing his
17:11
Speaker 5: hands and the toilets in the mall, and the mall
17:13
Speaker 5: post people wanted to clean the toilets. The cops gave
17:15
Speaker 5: him a move on direction. He was a bit of
17:17
Speaker 5: a struppy ol bloke living on the streets.
17:19
Speaker 4: He'd been to church.
17:20
Speaker 5: He was a guy obviously said what he thought and
17:23
Speaker 5: they took exception to it and ended up arresting and
17:25
Speaker 5: put him on the ground and were quite violent with
17:27
Speaker 5: him in the way they arrested him. They eventually were
17:30
Speaker 5: charged with the very first civil prosecution of police officer
17:33
Speaker 5: ever in Australia to my knowledge anyway, and one of
17:36
Speaker 5: them was found guilty.
17:37
Speaker 4: And that was the main video in the early days
17:40
Speaker 4: of YouTube.
17:40
Speaker 5: That was a video getting played over and over again
17:42
Speaker 5: that was said to represent what cops are like in
17:45
Speaker 5: the city. When I took over, there were some cops
17:48
Speaker 5: that were probably like that, but there were a lot
17:49
Speaker 5: of cops, so listen, which want to help these people.
17:51
Speaker 5: We've got nothing to offer them other than a night
17:53
Speaker 5: in the watchhouse. We're really worried about these kids, but
17:55
Speaker 5: they frustrate the shit out of us because we're trying
17:57
Speaker 5: to go to jobs and do stuff. But I've got
17:59
Speaker 5: nothing to help these kids. All I can do is
18:01
Speaker 5: move them on, and then I end up fighting them.
18:02
Speaker 5: And the level of frush tration and the level of
18:06
Speaker 5: isolation that good cops felt when they couldn't help people
18:09
Speaker 5: when they generally wanted to help them and all they
18:11
Speaker 5: had to offer was a night and the watchhouse was palpable.
18:14
Speaker 5: So we made friends with the services first.
18:18
Speaker 2: On the other side of the coin, though, to I
18:20
Speaker 2: guess play Devil's Advocate, the level of assaults against police
18:24
Speaker 2: were very high at the time, so it was a
18:27
Speaker 2: bit of a war zone. So I guess I can't
18:29
Speaker 2: fully criticize the police for being weary in the interactions.
18:35
Speaker 5: Oh, definitely understandable. You know, that was the days of
18:38
Speaker 5: young kids on the street sniffing a lot of paint too.
18:40
Speaker 5: There was a lot of conflict with kids that were affected.
18:43
Speaker 5: There was a lot of conflict with people generally. When
18:46
Speaker 5: we knew that services weren't coming out after ours was
18:49
Speaker 5: on our plate to deal with people after business hours
18:52
Speaker 5: because there was no other service coming out to help
18:54
Speaker 5: these people when they are genuinely in crisis, and cops
18:58
Speaker 5: were probably part of the problem as well when it
19:01
Speaker 5: comes to that, because the process of giving someone to
19:04
Speaker 5: move on direct that turns into and obstruct police, that
19:07
Speaker 5: then turns into and assault police. You know, it's a
19:09
Speaker 5: chain of awful events when once you start that train going,
19:14
Speaker 5: when you give someone a move on direction and they
19:16
Speaker 5: tell you what to do, and then you pinch them
19:18
Speaker 5: for some street offense, and then they obstruct you, and
19:20
Speaker 5: then they assault you in the course of obstructing you.
19:23
Speaker 5: And the futility of it all was obvious to people
19:26
Speaker 5: when they think, I just spent two hours at the watchhouse,
19:29
Speaker 5: never got a type of brief. I've got an injury,
19:32
Speaker 5: I've got bloody court brief coming up, a full brief.
19:35
Speaker 4: I've got to complain against me.
19:36
Speaker 5: Just it's debilitating when if we could have just found
19:40
Speaker 5: that person somewhere to be, or a service could have
19:42
Speaker 5: hooked that person up, that whole chain of events could
19:45
Speaker 5: have been different, and that time could have been spent
19:48
Speaker 5: actually doing more valuable police work.
19:51
Speaker 2: Because I imagine these young constables on the beat are
19:54
Speaker 2: going out girded for action. It's a stressful job at
19:57
Speaker 2: the best of times, and if I think they're going
20:00
Speaker 2: to be bashed by members of the public, they're going
20:03
Speaker 2: to take a proactive approach to that confrontation.
20:06
Speaker 5: Sure, sure, And at that time there was no instruction
20:11
Speaker 5: on communication as an operational skill, so there's a lot
20:15
Speaker 5: about how to use your hands on skills. There was
20:17
Speaker 5: a lot about this thing called tactical communication, which was
20:20
Speaker 5: pretty much a couple of verbal Judo type tricks you
20:24
Speaker 5: could use to people and then you can arrest them
20:26
Speaker 5: anyway if they didn't comply. We built on that later
20:29
Speaker 5: on when I was the chief operational Skills instructor, and
20:32
Speaker 5: we integrated the same skills that police negotiators get because
20:36
Speaker 5: we saw that negotiators get a really good outcome. If
20:39
Speaker 5: we could adopt a version of that for frontline police
20:42
Speaker 5: to get them to think, well, jeez, if I slide
20:44
Speaker 5: things down, if I created space and distance, if I
20:48
Speaker 5: changed the tone of my voice, if I asked a
20:50
Speaker 5: question instead of giving a loud verbal instruction over and
20:53
Speaker 5: over again, maybe there would be less conflict.
20:55
Speaker 4: And we know that it works really, really well when
20:58
Speaker 4: cops are good at.
20:58
Speaker 5: That, even when they've got a gun in the hand,
21:00
Speaker 5: even when they've got a taser in the hand.
21:02
Speaker 4: If they can say, mate, listen, what's going on now?
21:04
Speaker 5: I must hurt you instead of screaming our verbal commands
21:07
Speaker 5: when it's safe to do so, because it's not always.
21:10
Speaker 5: But at that stage, there was no training in that
21:12
Speaker 5: of skills. Training was about I see a problem, I
21:15
Speaker 5: solve it with force. I see a problem, I solve
21:17
Speaker 5: it with a technique. None of the techniques were I
21:19
Speaker 5: see a problem, I'm going to talk this person until
21:22
Speaker 5: there is bleed and then they're going to give up.
21:24
Speaker 5: There was none of those scenarios. There was no practicing that,
21:27
Speaker 5: so that was so obvious to be when I took
21:28
Speaker 5: that job. I asked the instructors, I said, what's the
21:31
Speaker 5: most important skill cops have got? I said, well, what
21:33
Speaker 5: do you mean? I said, we are the instructors. You know,
21:36
Speaker 5: it's eighty of you. You teach recruits, you teach in service,
21:38
Speaker 5: you write curriculum every year, people have to do your content.
21:41
Speaker 4: What's the most important skill?
21:43
Speaker 5: Because you spend eighty hours teaching recruits how to shoot,
21:46
Speaker 5: twenty hours how to use the tasers and so on.
21:48
Speaker 5: One of them said, oh, obviously is communication. They kind
21:51
Speaker 5: of pick that up when they get out there. I said,
21:53
Speaker 5: they're not anymore. We're going to teach them communication as
21:55
Speaker 5: an operational skill, because cops that can talk to people
21:58
Speaker 5: the right way.
21:59
Speaker 4: They use less force.
22:00
Speaker 5: Cops that can de escalate people the right way, use
22:03
Speaker 5: some empathy and respect and creating a bit of time
22:06
Speaker 5: and space. Using those verbal techniques, they actually are safer
22:10
Speaker 5: and they are healthier because there's a lot of wholesomeness
22:13
Speaker 5: to think, well, I could have hurt that person, or
22:15
Speaker 5: I could have used the technique or the tool or
22:17
Speaker 5: the weapon then, but I didn't because I actually spoke
22:20
Speaker 5: to that person the right way when I could, you know,
22:22
Speaker 5: and there's plenty of times when you can't, But when
22:25
Speaker 5: you can create that time and space by slowing things
22:28
Speaker 5: down with your tone, asking a question instead of giving
22:31
Speaker 5: a verbal command when it's safe to do so, it's
22:33
Speaker 5: a pretty bloody, remarkable feeling to think, jeez, I could
22:36
Speaker 5: have hurt that person, I could have pulled the trigger,
22:38
Speaker 5: but I ended up saving their life. And that happens
22:41
Speaker 5: one hundred times a month in Queensland. Cops pull their
22:44
Speaker 5: fire arm one hundred times a month and don't shoot
22:46
Speaker 5: it right.
22:47
Speaker 2: I like to say that sincerity is the hardest thing
22:50
Speaker 2: to fake. Empathy is the easiest, because you just got
22:53
Speaker 2: to listen, and I think you did learn to listen
22:56
Speaker 2: you'd also work with three prostitutes as well, and you
22:59
Speaker 2: understood their lives, what was happening in their lives, what
23:02
Speaker 2: was motivating them, the drug situations that they were in,
23:06
Speaker 2: and so forth.
23:07
Speaker 1: How much did that prepare you for the homeless situation.
23:10
Speaker 5: Well, I didn't realize it at the time. I just
23:13
Speaker 5: thought we were stupid to arrest these people who were
23:16
Speaker 5: going to court. They get a three hundred dollar fine
23:18
Speaker 5: and then they'd have to go out and do three
23:20
Speaker 5: tricks or three jobs, three other horrible things on the street,
23:23
Speaker 5: because it just meant you put them backwards three hundred bucks.
23:25
Speaker 4: They actually didn't get any help.
23:27
Speaker 5: And I always remember Pension, the first street worker, and
23:30
Speaker 5: I said to the guy that was handing over the
23:32
Speaker 5: squad to me, and I said, what was the point
23:33
Speaker 5: of that, because what do you mean?
23:34
Speaker 4: I said, Well, she's just going to get a fine.
23:37
Speaker 4: She's not going to get any help. I thought.
23:39
Speaker 5: I thought she'd get some help and referral. And he goes, oh, no,
23:41
Speaker 5: it just she'll be out tomorrow. She'll get a fine.
23:45
Speaker 5: And I thought that's just the definition of stupidity and
23:48
Speaker 5: making their life worse. So when the squad was mine
23:51
Speaker 5: and he had left. It was only five of us.
23:54
Speaker 5: I got it everyone around. I said, we're not going
23:55
Speaker 5: to arrest these people anymore. We're going to actually divert
23:58
Speaker 5: them if we can. So we're going to focus on
24:00
Speaker 5: people dealing drugs and doing harm, because they were people
24:03
Speaker 5: that were raping and murdering. Two women got murdered down
24:06
Speaker 5: there around that time, And when you actually listened to
24:09
Speaker 5: the stories of those women, there was no way you
24:11
Speaker 5: wanted to pick on them. There's no way you wanted
24:13
Speaker 5: to disparage them or arrest them. You know, they were
24:17
Speaker 5: mostly heroin addicts, spending one thousand dollars a day on heroin.
24:20
Speaker 5: They were mostly putting themselves in very vulnerable situations to
24:23
Speaker 5: get that money. And I really just thought when we
24:27
Speaker 5: knew their stories and I did videos of their stories,
24:30
Speaker 5: I recorded their stories to show the other cops that
24:32
Speaker 5: started to work with us, to say, you know, these
24:34
Speaker 5: are the people we're trying to help. They're vulnerable, mostly women,
24:37
Speaker 5: some trans We're going to move them on when we
24:39
Speaker 5: need to work down there, and.
24:41
Speaker 4: That built up a remarkable level of trust.
24:43
Speaker 5: They actually ended up telling us a lot about what
24:45
Speaker 5: was happening on the street, because imagine the intel and
24:47
Speaker 5: the drum that they had. You know, they told us
24:50
Speaker 5: where bad crooks were, They told us where bodies were buried.
24:53
Speaker 5: They told us stuff. Even recently, and I can't tell
24:55
Speaker 5: you the full details. Someone who worked on the street
24:58
Speaker 5: at that time still had my mobile number in about
25:00
Speaker 5: twelve months. She rang me up and I still have
25:03
Speaker 5: the same phone number. Much of my wife's discussed, but
25:05
Speaker 5: she rang me up and she told me some stuff
25:07
Speaker 5: that's probably going to solve a serious double homicide in
25:10
Speaker 5: Queensland because I was the only cop she trusted from
25:13
Speaker 5: back in those days. But that whole idea that you
25:16
Speaker 5: show someone that's vulnerable a better respect and a bit
25:20
Speaker 5: of understanding when you're in a position of power is
25:24
Speaker 5: pretty universal. Most of the time, most people took the help.
25:28
Speaker 5: Most people accepted the fact that we were able to
25:32
Speaker 5: do less harm. And that's when I realized that if
25:35
Speaker 5: you could help the people that needed helping, target the
25:38
Speaker 5: people that need targeting. And you know, I love locking
25:41
Speaker 5: people up. I love putting a person with bad intent
25:44
Speaker 5: in their place. And I don't mind still having a
25:47
Speaker 5: fight with someone. If we've got to have a fight
25:49
Speaker 5: with someone and you've tried everything else, sometimes that's extremely necessary,
25:53
Speaker 5: but you save that for special occasions when it makes
25:55
Speaker 5: the most difference. You're not just going to arrest everyone
25:58
Speaker 5: because you can because they've committed an offense. If you
26:00
Speaker 5: can do something else, well, we don't have the resources
26:03
Speaker 5: to lock everyone up. We could or write every ticket
26:05
Speaker 5: record that the right conversation can make a difference in
26:08
Speaker 5: a person's life.
26:10
Speaker 1: It really can.
26:11
Speaker 2: And I think when I first met you, it was
26:13
Speaker 2: at that summit and there you were in your uniform,
26:15
Speaker 2: and I heard speaker after speaker criticizing police generally, and
26:19
Speaker 2: I thought.
26:22
Speaker 1: National sport.
26:23
Speaker 2: And you got me curious, and we began talking, and
26:26
Speaker 2: I realized that you had this way of saying, how
26:29
Speaker 2: do we solve the problem at source? How do we
26:32
Speaker 2: connect these people services and actually get them off the street.
26:36
Speaker 2: And understanding their path to homelessness was a really important
26:40
Speaker 2: aspect of that.
26:42
Speaker 4: Yeah.
26:42
Speaker 5: Well, I had some great examples where coups that had
26:45
Speaker 5: walked past people for years sat down with them.
26:49
Speaker 4: It was a bullshit thing.
26:50
Speaker 5: I created a form that looked like a criminal profile form,
26:53
Speaker 5: but it was a highless profile and I said, oh,
26:55
Speaker 5: we just really need you to get the first years
26:57
Speaker 5: and set with these people and fill out this form
27:00
Speaker 5: because crops like filling out forms. Some people got it
27:03
Speaker 5: and they knew what it was about. Some people said, hey,
27:05
Speaker 5: I'll just go out a form because you're the senior sergeant.
27:07
Speaker 5: But the form had different questions, had questions about where
27:10
Speaker 5: do you keep your belongings in case something happens to you,
27:13
Speaker 5: what sort of medical history do you have in case
27:15
Speaker 5: you have an issue? Who do we tell a few
27:17
Speaker 5: passed away and we want to treat you with dignity?
27:20
Speaker 5: What services do you like to talk to? So they
27:22
Speaker 5: were quite wholesome questions. And I had this great example
27:25
Speaker 5: where a cop sat with a seventy two year old
27:27
Speaker 5: Italian lady in the middle of the mall and he
27:30
Speaker 5: said he'd been walking past her for two years and
27:32
Speaker 5: he didn't know that she was a teacher, that she
27:34
Speaker 5: was on the.
27:34
Speaker 4: Street because she'd had a relationship breakdown.
27:36
Speaker 5: She came here to marry a man, it didn't work,
27:39
Speaker 5: she didn't have a phone, she couldn't feel out the form,
27:41
Speaker 5: so her English language wasn't that good. He felt terribly
27:44
Speaker 5: guilty that he'd been walking past her for two years
27:46
Speaker 5: and never even sat with her or spoke to her.
27:49
Speaker 5: Because she wasn't a problem. She was just an old
27:51
Speaker 5: lady with a walker and all the stuff strapped to
27:53
Speaker 5: a walker that slept on a bench outside Hungry Jack's.
27:56
Speaker 5: And he came into my office and he was a
27:57
Speaker 5: bit upset. He said, Oh, I feel like terrible, He said,
27:59
Speaker 5: I've been walking past this poor woman. He said, she's
28:02
Speaker 5: got two degrees, she's a teacher, she's lovely. Is you know,
28:05
Speaker 5: she's just had this drama in her life and she's
28:07
Speaker 5: sitting there And said, well, what are we going to
28:09
Speaker 5: do about it?
28:10
Speaker 4: I didn't know either.
28:11
Speaker 5: So we kept knocking on doors and we ended market
28:14
Speaker 5: projects with the people that helped us the most. We've
28:16
Speaker 5: got the Italian Club involved and they gave her a
28:19
Speaker 5: bit of cultural support. Within a month, Micro Projects had
28:22
Speaker 5: a little unit for her. All she wanted was a
28:24
Speaker 5: bath in a veggie garden. They actually put a bath
28:27
Speaker 5: in the unit for her. And we're a had her
28:29
Speaker 5: off the streets now. Not exactly core police work, but
28:34
Speaker 5: she's not going to be a victim of crime. She's
28:36
Speaker 5: not going to die prematurely. That place is a bit safer.
28:40
Speaker 5: We're not the homeless cops, but we're certainly the cops
28:42
Speaker 5: that can introduce people to the right people to get
28:44
Speaker 5: a better outcome, and we can do less harm. So
28:47
Speaker 5: those types of wholesome stories that came out of crops
28:50
Speaker 5: just getting to know people better using a stupid form
28:54
Speaker 5: just repeated themselves over and over again once I opened
28:56
Speaker 5: the door to them and sort of unlocked their empathetic
28:59
Speaker 5: side of cops that they didn't realize was so powerful,
29:03
Speaker 5: or they didn't realize was expected of them.
29:05
Speaker 2: Yeah, and as you say, police will love numbers, what
29:09
Speaker 2: did you start to see in the numbers the critical
29:12
Speaker 2: measures of your success.
29:14
Speaker 5: I've been warned because he was a particular deputy commissioner
29:18
Speaker 5: at the time who was quite vocal about what the
29:21
Speaker 5: hell is he doing? You were not the harmless cops.
29:25
Speaker 5: He was no fan of mine anyway, and he was
29:27
Speaker 5: quite critical. So my boy said, just you need to
29:30
Speaker 5: cover your ass here because at the next performance review,
29:32
Speaker 5: we're going to be looking at how many assaults there's been,
29:35
Speaker 5: how much crime there's been. No one's going to care
29:38
Speaker 5: how many people we've housed or how many referrals you've made.
29:41
Speaker 4: But the odd part was we were wasting thirty percent
29:44
Speaker 4: of our time locking these people up and moving them on.
29:48
Speaker 4: When I made an introduction to the service and we
29:50
Speaker 4: called the street to home team and they come and
29:52
Speaker 4: dealt with old mate instead of us locking them up
29:54
Speaker 4: for a public nuisance or giving him grief, we got
29:57
Speaker 4: two hours back in our day. When cops thought, oh,
30:00
Speaker 4: that was great, someone came to help me with this
30:02
Speaker 4: problem that I can't really help with. I felt terror
30:05
Speaker 4: all about locking people up. We're doing this.
30:06
Speaker 5: So then they started to apply themselves to the other
30:10
Speaker 5: work in better ways. So when they started to look
30:13
Speaker 5: at what the problem was rather than what's happening right
30:16
Speaker 5: in front of them, and ask questions that were a
30:18
Speaker 5: bit deeper. I saw them doing that for other things,
30:20
Speaker 5: like they go to break an inner and instead of
30:22
Speaker 5: just taking the report, going to the next one. If
30:25
Speaker 5: it was an elderly person in particular, someone vulnerable, I
30:28
Speaker 5: still cops saying, oh, listen, I'll come back and check
30:29
Speaker 5: on you tomorrow and to make sure you're all right.
30:31
Speaker 5: Because they seem to have this understanding that there's a
30:33
Speaker 5: person behind the problem, and there's a victim behind the problem,
30:37
Speaker 5: and we do have a role in making those people
30:39
Speaker 5: feel better about the shitty things that happened in their life.
30:41
Speaker 5: Even if we don't always solve them or we don't
30:43
Speaker 5: always fix them, we can be the human side of
30:46
Speaker 5: making that a little bit better for those people.
30:48
Speaker 4: And they've still got a lot of work to do
30:49
Speaker 4: in that area.
30:50
Speaker 5: But all our crime numbers came down across the board,
30:54
Speaker 5: which pissed the buses off because they said, what sort
30:56
Speaker 5: of operations are you running? You know you must be
30:58
Speaker 5: doing these big crime clear up saw these street sweeps.
31:01
Speaker 5: I said, actually, we just talk crops how to speak
31:03
Speaker 5: to people properly. We diverted a lot of people that
31:06
Speaker 5: really we shouldn't be having in contact with, and we
31:10
Speaker 5: were able to focus on stuff. It was more meaningful
31:12
Speaker 5: because we freed up thirty percent of our time. The
31:15
Speaker 5: most important number that changed was that the sick leave
31:18
Speaker 5: came down, as the cops that didn't want to stay
31:21
Speaker 5: at the station because it was a bit soul sapping
31:24
Speaker 5: grind dealing with homeless people in street kids and not
31:27
Speaker 5: doing any good. The sick leave came down and people
31:30
Speaker 5: were fighting to stay at the station. That told me
31:33
Speaker 5: there was a purple patch of about four years there
31:35
Speaker 5: where we had all the resources we needed, We had
31:37
Speaker 5: all the support we needed from the services. There was
31:40
Speaker 5: housing to give people stuff. We said someone got housing,
31:42
Speaker 5: they got housing within two days. Sometimes there was just
31:45
Speaker 5: a purple patch to show how it actually could work
31:48
Speaker 5: with cops arresting less people, helping more people, and targeting
31:52
Speaker 5: the right people.
31:52
Speaker 4: The right way. It was just you look back now.
31:55
Speaker 4: I didn't realize how lucky we were.
31:58
Speaker 2: Yeah, you often hear this from X cops so used
32:00
Speaker 2: to pride themselves on street policing. Today's cops drive around
32:04
Speaker 2: on the TVV van, windows up, radio turned full bore.
32:07
Speaker 2: They don't even see what's going on outside, and I
32:10
Speaker 2: think it creates a distance. And I do hear more
32:12
Speaker 2: and more these days, please talk about the blue family
32:16
Speaker 2: when really they're part of the community. And I think
32:18
Speaker 2: what your programs did was bring them closer to that
32:21
Speaker 2: community and maybe show them a whole different way to
32:25
Speaker 2: approach policing.
32:27
Speaker 5: Oh for sure, when you have that experience, and I
32:29
Speaker 5: do think it's like a little epiphany when you sit
32:32
Speaker 5: with someone and you hear their story and it touches
32:35
Speaker 5: you a little bit. And believe me, I pushed some cranky,
32:38
Speaker 5: hard assed cops into doing this work. Whether they liked
32:40
Speaker 5: it or not. It wasn't just the cops that got it.
32:43
Speaker 5: I pushed the cops who are like, you're actually rough
32:46
Speaker 5: around the edges, you're a bit worried, you've got some miles.
32:48
Speaker 4: On the clock.
32:49
Speaker 5: You need to have some exposure to dealing with street kids,
32:52
Speaker 5: even though you don't like them. It even affected them
32:55
Speaker 5: when they thought, actually, jeez, I listened to that kid
32:58
Speaker 5: a bit longer than I normally would. I was with
33:00
Speaker 5: a youth worker. I watched how they talked to that kid.
33:03
Speaker 5: It changes people and fundamentally changes the way people approach
33:08
Speaker 5: problems when they see that you don't have to be
33:11
Speaker 5: processed through and you can be people driven. You could
33:13
Speaker 5: just listen to someone a bit longer than you normally
33:16
Speaker 5: would and change the tone of the interaction. You might
33:20
Speaker 5: not solve the problem, but that person feels a lot
33:24
Speaker 5: better and you feel a lot better about it, and
33:27
Speaker 5: you're not as affected by the frustration of it all.
33:29
Speaker 5: I just feel sorry at the moment, how what's happening
33:31
Speaker 5: with our capacity because the cops all over Australia it
33:35
Speaker 5: is really struggling just to get to the jobs we have,
33:38
Speaker 5: let alone spend the time to spend.
33:40
Speaker 4: And I know cops would love to they say my area.
33:42
Speaker 4: I'm in a West Control group.
33:44
Speaker 5: Now I look after about one hundred and seventy cops
33:47
Speaker 5: five hundred square kilometers of Brisbane, and I know my
33:50
Speaker 5: cops to say, boss, we would love to be walking
33:52
Speaker 5: the beat and doing that stuff. There's three dvs waiting,
33:55
Speaker 5: and there's other jobs waiting. They are going from job
33:58
Speaker 5: to job. Some of the very busy areas. It's not
34:00
Speaker 5: uncommon for logan that area to have one hundred jobs
34:02
Speaker 5: on the books and they just got to work there
34:05
Speaker 5: way through the ones that are the most traumatical or
34:07
Speaker 5: the most problematic. They don't have the time of the
34:10
Speaker 5: capability right now with the exceeding increase in demand we've
34:13
Speaker 5: seen to do that health and stuff.
34:16
Speaker 2: So given that sort of situation, does that period you
34:19
Speaker 2: spent encouraging officers to do one to one advocacy almost?
34:24
Speaker 4: Yeah?
34:24
Speaker 1: Does it seem quaint now? Is that not possible anymore?
34:27
Speaker 5: Or I definitely understand why we can't do it to
34:30
Speaker 5: the same level. But I think the answer to most
34:33
Speaker 5: of this is to use the intel to target things
34:37
Speaker 5: more specifically. So instead of thinking we should always be
34:41
Speaker 5: out talking to people doing this beautiful health and police
34:44
Speaker 5: work which does work. Let's pick where actually there's a
34:47
Speaker 5: very big problem here. That's one of the things we
34:49
Speaker 5: should do as well as responding to demand, as well
34:52
Speaker 5: as arresting that high profile offenders. It should be part
34:56
Speaker 5: of a sweeter skills you use to treat a problem
34:59
Speaker 5: in a worthwhile area.
35:00
Speaker 4: And I give an example.
35:01
Speaker 5: We just did an operation at Trampside shops fifty thousand
35:05
Speaker 5: people a day. There's two poor crops on the beat
35:07
Speaker 5: that are run off there floating around everywhere. There's a
35:09
Speaker 5: lot of retail crime and retail harm. We did a
35:13
Speaker 5: month of high engagement hotspots, so we'd use the intel
35:16
Speaker 5: to go inside the precinct exactly where the trouble is
35:21
Speaker 5: and when the trouble is. And their job was not
35:24
Speaker 5: to make arrest, it was to talk to as many
35:26
Speaker 5: people at that spot as you could for a two
35:28
Speaker 5: hour period on three different times during the week. And
35:32
Speaker 5: the feedback was amazing that just having cups there at
35:34
Speaker 5: the right time, the right place, doing the right thing
35:37
Speaker 5: and the right things, not always arresting people. Are sure
35:40
Speaker 5: they arrested a few people, but it's engaging kids walking
35:44
Speaker 5: through the businesses during the wandering wars we have with
35:47
Speaker 5: Jack's Law, which have been fantastic. They've significantly reduced the
35:50
Speaker 5: carriage of knives in that place, that's for sure. You've
35:52
Speaker 5: just got to be more specific with it and treat
35:54
Speaker 5: it like a valid operational tactic that you can't just say,
35:58
Speaker 5: I'm going to lock up all these crooks or I'm
36:00
Speaker 5: going to do these high viz patrols. It's a tactic
36:03
Speaker 5: as much as communicating the right way is an operational skill.
36:07
Speaker 5: Engaging the community in a positive way in the right
36:10
Speaker 5: place the right time is an operational tactic that's very valid,
36:13
Speaker 5: and we can do it where it's needed. We just
36:16
Speaker 5: can't do it all the time to the degree we
36:18
Speaker 5: used to.
36:20
Speaker 2: Every police force has the drama of recruitment. There's not
36:25
Speaker 2: enough people stepping forward. The normal cohort of people that
36:28
Speaker 2: joins the police is not doing it anymore. You've also
36:31
Speaker 2: got the problem of retention. People are leaving after a
36:34
Speaker 2: few years in the force. How do we address those
36:37
Speaker 2: issues because I think some police find it traumatic that
36:42
Speaker 2: they are the object of a lot of hatred, a
36:45
Speaker 2: lot of negative feedback from the community, and they say,
36:48
Speaker 2: stuff it.
36:49
Speaker 1: Why would I.
36:49
Speaker 2: Bother taking up Corey Allen's approach and being empathetic. When
36:52
Speaker 2: I'm getting the shit kicked out of me on the streets,
36:55
Speaker 2: I'm not getting supported by the bosses.
36:57
Speaker 1: What do you say that young.
36:58
Speaker 2: People who are thinking about joining the police force, who
37:01
Speaker 2: are or even in there now and thinking of getting.
37:03
Speaker 4: Out answer for this.
37:05
Speaker 5: Because I've got a sixteen year old that wants to
37:07
Speaker 5: join the cops because he's like, oh, I look at
37:09
Speaker 5: all the awesome.
37:11
Speaker 4: Fun you've had.
37:11
Speaker 5: And I take him along door events and things and
37:13
Speaker 5: community stuff to expose him to it. And I said,
37:16
Speaker 5: if you're going to go into the police, you have
37:18
Speaker 5: to go in with your eyes wide open about what
37:20
Speaker 5: it is right now, because it's different from what it
37:22
Speaker 5: was five years ago.
37:24
Speaker 4: That was five years to chief instructor.
37:25
Speaker 5: When I came back out to a patrol group commanded role,
37:28
Speaker 5: I thought, it's all right, I'll just a bit busier
37:30
Speaker 5: than it was, but it's completely changed. Like the volume
37:33
Speaker 5: of heavy jobs you go to, you know, three dvs
37:36
Speaker 5: in a day. Sometimes that's a lot of heavy, emotional,
37:40
Speaker 5: deep work you've got to do.
37:41
Speaker 4: You carry the weight to that around.
37:43
Speaker 5: You have to have your eyes wide open knowing that
37:45
Speaker 5: that's going to be a lot of your work in
37:47
Speaker 5: general duties first response policing.
37:50
Speaker 4: It's not going to be a lot of the fun
37:51
Speaker 4: that it was chasing.
37:52
Speaker 5: Things around, and you have to have the ability to
37:56
Speaker 5: self care and manage that, especially if you're a young
37:59
Speaker 5: person being exposed. So I saw that recent article said
38:02
Speaker 5: in Queen's Lane, we're losing a lot of people between
38:04
Speaker 5: the one and four years. I think, in all fairness
38:08
Speaker 5: recruiting and doing a fantastic job. We've got fourteen hundred
38:10
Speaker 5: recruits going through the academy this year, which is more
38:14
Speaker 5: than we have done. The trouble is, when you're recruiting
38:16
Speaker 5: a lot of people, you dig deep into a pool.
38:19
Speaker 5: Normally you would take the top ten percent. Now we've
38:21
Speaker 5: got to take a lot more who will still meet
38:24
Speaker 5: the standards, But when they come out into the real world,
38:28
Speaker 5: maybe they're not the right people to deal with policing
38:31
Speaker 5: as it is now. And maybe there's some people that
38:34
Speaker 5: don't want to deal with policing as it is now.
38:36
Speaker 5: But I think you've got to be rational about first
38:38
Speaker 5: response policing as a shelf life. And I've seen some
38:41
Speaker 5: studies and done some studies that people once they get
38:44
Speaker 5: to about nine years of being on the road, there's
38:46
Speaker 5: a real risk that they're going to be quite upset
38:49
Speaker 5: and course and a little bit damaged, and they're not
38:51
Speaker 5: going to be their best and they're not going to
38:53
Speaker 5: be healthy. So do your turn as first response and
38:58
Speaker 5: get out, do something else. Come back to first response
39:01
Speaker 5: by all men in a different role. But the days
39:03
Speaker 5: of a cop being a first responder for twenty years,
39:07
Speaker 5: you're either going to be very damaged or a very
39:09
Speaker 5: special person to be able to do that. These days,
39:11
Speaker 5: like when I join, you do one or two dvs
39:14
Speaker 5: a week, and that'd be okay. I think I'd do
39:16
Speaker 5: a couple of shitty things a week because they're bloody hard.
39:18
Speaker 5: Like you've got to get into someone's life. You've got
39:20
Speaker 5: to learn what's going on. You've got to try and
39:22
Speaker 5: solve and help them. And it doesn't always work. Twice
39:26
Speaker 5: a week, that's good. Three times a day when the
39:29
Speaker 5: body cams on and you know if you make a
39:30
Speaker 5: mistake and if you miss something and someone dies or
39:33
Speaker 5: something horrible happens, that you're going to carry the weight
39:35
Speaker 5: of that that you're going to carry that shit is
39:38
Speaker 5: that DV death that happened in my era? Have I
39:41
Speaker 5: ever been to that job, because you know that you're
39:43
Speaker 5: going to be deeply scrutinized and you probably would have
39:47
Speaker 5: made a mistake at some point.
39:49
Speaker 4: Carrying the weight of that these days is called far
39:51
Speaker 4: greater than it was before. And dealing with mental health,
39:54
Speaker 4: like the coups who talk to people who are suicidal
39:57
Speaker 4: and talk to people that are just destroy its increased significantly.
40:03
Speaker 2: Because I think I think it's like seventy percent of
40:05
Speaker 2: jobs now are DV related and we're hearing about a
40:08
Speaker 2: crisis and domestic violence. Both of what we've seen is
40:11
Speaker 2: police forces are responding better than they used to. Therefore
40:14
Speaker 2: people are making more reports, but it does place a
40:17
Speaker 2: massive strain on the resources and the individual officers. They're
40:19
Speaker 2: standing there trying to referee problems in a marriage or
40:23
Speaker 2: a relationship that people that are much older than them,
40:26
Speaker 2: and as you say, if they make a mistake and
40:28
Speaker 2: there's a murder, they're going to carry that the rest
40:30
Speaker 2: of their career. Is how do you prepare young officers
40:35
Speaker 2: for the change in demands that are placed upon them.
40:38
Speaker 5: I do think it's about learning how to communicate and
40:41
Speaker 5: connect with people in a better way instead of like
40:44
Speaker 5: the tactical communication stuff we're used to get that whole
40:47
Speaker 5: idea that you can actively listen to someone be empathetic.
40:51
Speaker 5: That's the key to getting to know what's happening in
40:54
Speaker 5: a domestic violence incident and actually doing a better job
40:57
Speaker 5: that listening and actively listening and using.
41:01
Speaker 4: Those skills as your core skills.
41:04
Speaker 5: You can't go to a DV and be procedurally correct
41:07
Speaker 5: and talk to people in a process driven way. You
41:10
Speaker 5: really actually have to listen to people and actually have
41:12
Speaker 5: to be empathetic if you can have any influence over
41:15
Speaker 5: a better outcome. And I do think when cops learn
41:18
Speaker 5: those skills, they actually do it with each other as well.
41:21
Speaker 5: So the byproduct of cops that are good empathetic cops
41:24
Speaker 5: that listen to people and problems is they're normally good
41:27
Speaker 5: cops that listen to each other and support each other.
41:29
Speaker 5: We're like every other organization. The frontline throws should at
41:33
Speaker 5: the hierarchy quite often because they say, I'm not supported above,
41:37
Speaker 5: and I'm not supported by these executive But really the
41:39
Speaker 5: best support comes from the people next to you and
41:42
Speaker 5: the people just around you. And if we could be
41:45
Speaker 5: empathetic and listen to each other, we'll probably be a
41:47
Speaker 5: bit healthier instead of looking up for people that haven't
41:50
Speaker 5: got the time. And sometimes I'll be honest, sometimes some
41:54
Speaker 5: bosses don't care as much as they probably say they do.
41:56
Speaker 5: But I know that we can look after each other,
41:59
Speaker 5: and we can listen to each other, and the same
42:02
Speaker 5: empathy we give to other people, we can give to
42:04
Speaker 5: each other, so that when you see someone you're working
42:07
Speaker 5: with and they're not traveling very well, you could be
42:10
Speaker 5: the person that nudges them into taking some support and
42:12
Speaker 5: feeling like someone lestens and feeling like someone understands.
42:16
Speaker 4: That's got to be the way forward when it comes
42:18
Speaker 4: to police health and well being. That's for sure.
42:20
Speaker 1: Good. So you've been in the job since November nineteen
42:23
Speaker 1: eighty six.
42:24
Speaker 2: I think it's about thirty nine years, sixteen thousand days
42:28
Speaker 2: on the front line of policing. Amazing to think about it,
42:32
Speaker 2: isn't it. I've got almost the same amount of time
42:34
Speaker 2: in journalism, and it frightens me to think.
42:36
Speaker 1: All those days that I might have wasted.
42:37
Speaker 4: But not as cynical as you should be, now that's true.
42:41
Speaker 2: Is it one day that you think tupifies either your
42:47
Speaker 2: achievements or what you're left undone.
42:51
Speaker 5: No, I think oddly, and because I've had as you
42:55
Speaker 5: come to retirement, you so people have asked those types
42:57
Speaker 5: of questions and a lot of cops say, oh, it
42:59
Speaker 5: was this big job or was this big thing. But
43:02
Speaker 5: I think there are one hundred little micro expressions of
43:07
Speaker 5: where things worked on their own were nothing significant, but
43:11
Speaker 5: when you put them all together, you know, I just
43:13
Speaker 5: get people now when they know I'm retire and coming
43:15
Speaker 5: up saying I remember when you did this for me
43:18
Speaker 5: when I was having a shit time at work and
43:20
Speaker 5: you really helped me. And I'm like, I couldn't remember
43:22
Speaker 5: that if you asked me, but the fact that that
43:25
Speaker 5: little moment of kindness made a difference in someone's life.
43:28
Speaker 5: I had a bloody recruit come up to me when
43:29
Speaker 5: I was at the academy and he said, oh, do
43:31
Speaker 5: you remember me?
43:31
Speaker 4: So I said no.
43:33
Speaker 5: Made he goes, oh, I was twelve. He said, I
43:35
Speaker 5: was in the city. Said I didn't really like police.
43:37
Speaker 5: He said, I was with my mum. He said, you
43:39
Speaker 5: gave me a sticker. I said, I hope you didn't
43:41
Speaker 5: join the police too. That gave you a sticker? Made
43:43
Speaker 5: he goes no. He So I just thought if that
43:44
Speaker 5: cop could take the time out to do that. He said,
43:46
Speaker 5: it made me think about what cops really do because
43:49
Speaker 5: you could tell. He said, it was just such a
43:51
Speaker 5: nice little gesture. There's been a thousand of those little
43:54
Speaker 5: micro gestures that make up my career. And when I
43:57
Speaker 5: did that teed X talk and I had some cops
44:00
Speaker 5: right to me and say, and I've got into a
44:02
Speaker 5: little bit of trouble for doing that Tedex talk too,
44:04
Speaker 5: because some people like the fact that I do it
44:06
Speaker 5: in the hierarchy. But some cops write to me and said,
44:09
Speaker 5: thank you for telling that story because I grew up
44:11
Speaker 5: in a shitty house with domestic violence, and you know,
44:13
Speaker 5: I had some time when I was sleeping on couches
44:15
Speaker 5: and you know, I'd never talk about it, but I'm
44:17
Speaker 5: glad you did because it made me feel like there's
44:20
Speaker 5: another cop like me in the job for those reasons.
44:22
Speaker 5: So there's a lot of those little micro Jos's, little
44:25
Speaker 5: letters I've got for people that I've listened to podcasts
44:28
Speaker 5: and stuff that I've done and gone it's nice to
44:30
Speaker 5: know that there's a cop like that in Queensland. And
44:32
Speaker 5: there's a lot of cops like me in Queensland. They
44:34
Speaker 5: just don't talk as much as I do, because you
44:37
Speaker 5: know what it's like in the cops. They start talking
44:39
Speaker 5: about stuff, people throw shit, don't you. But our story
44:41
Speaker 5: worth telling is worth telling, And it's not my story.
44:44
Speaker 5: It's a story of a thousand cops in Queensland, and
44:47
Speaker 5: it's a story of twelve thousand crops in Queensland today
44:50
Speaker 5: who are going to shitty jobs and they're doing their best,
44:53
Speaker 5: and they do a bloody good job most of the time,
44:55
Speaker 5: and they do it with their heart and their sleeve
44:57
Speaker 5: most of the time.
44:58
Speaker 4: And if I'm not.
44:59
Speaker 5: Prepared to talk about it and share it, then what
45:02
Speaker 5: are people here these days? They see some snippets of
45:05
Speaker 5: bodycam footage of us chose some people, which is always exciting.
45:09
Speaker 5: They definitely hear when we get it wrong. Who's going
45:12
Speaker 5: to hear about all the good, wholesome stuff we do
45:14
Speaker 5: every day? And there's thousands of those things happening right
45:18
Speaker 5: now today that nobody will ever hear about. There'll be
45:21
Speaker 5: a copy draws their firearm today that won't shoot someone
45:23
Speaker 5: and I'll save their life.
45:24
Speaker 4: In Queensland. You'll never hear about that.
45:27
Speaker 2: So you're the patron saint of the cops. That don't
45:30
Speaker 2: draw their firearms talk the way through a problem. But
45:34
Speaker 2: I wonder if Corey Elleen is sixteen years of age
45:36
Speaker 2: today and he's got the choice of a career in
45:38
Speaker 2: journalism or literature or the police, you think you'd take
45:42
Speaker 2: the same path.
45:44
Speaker 5: I think I wouldn't be a good journalist if I
45:47
Speaker 5: hadn't gone out and done some stuff. I think the
45:50
Speaker 5: perspective I have now, I'll probably be a better journalist
45:54
Speaker 5: now because of the stuff I've done. And also I
45:56
Speaker 5: think my personality is I don't think I could be
45:59
Speaker 5: on the sidelines watching things. I need to be in
46:02
Speaker 5: the middle of stuff, walking into stuff, writing of certainly
46:06
Speaker 5: not donn a standing away. But he went to worry
46:08
Speaker 5: a couple of times, did me. They all seem to
46:10
Speaker 5: go and do some stuff, And you're always get in
46:12
Speaker 5: the middle of investigations and things because you're part of it.
46:15
Speaker 4: You're not on the sidelines watching it.
46:16
Speaker 5: These days, there's so much more interactive part for good
46:20
Speaker 5: journalism to play in making things better and helping people
46:23
Speaker 5: understand stuff and listening to other people's stories.
46:27
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, Corey, fantastic career. You've also, I should add,
46:31
Speaker 2: and you'll be humble about this. You've fostered twenty five
46:35
Speaker 2: children over your career as well as raising a brood
46:38
Speaker 2: of your own.
46:39
Speaker 4: Oh around trace, you've got to send to it.
46:41
Speaker 5: We're going to adopt a child because we've had We're
46:43
Speaker 5: lucky enough to have kids of our own, and we're
46:46
Speaker 5: well off, middle class people, so we can afford it.
46:48
Speaker 5: But we're so hard to bloody adopt a child where
46:51
Speaker 5: we ended up fostering short term and that it was
46:54
Speaker 5: a great lesson too, because you get kids from these
46:56
Speaker 5: different backgrounds and kids on short term care. You know,
47:01
Speaker 5: we had First Nations kids a couple of times for
47:03
Speaker 5: a short while before they could find kin ship care
47:05
Speaker 5: and our kids getting to experience that, you know, what's
47:09
Speaker 5: happened to this child within recent they don't get told
47:12
Speaker 5: what's happened, but they get to learn there's more to
47:15
Speaker 5: the world than just you know, you're complaining about not
47:17
Speaker 5: getting the latest iPhone or going to the next party.
47:20
Speaker 5: We fostered a little girl from Iraq. Her and her
47:23
Speaker 5: father come over here in a boat and her dad
47:25
Speaker 5: had required brain injuries. She stayed at our place for
47:28
Speaker 5: a couple of weeks in between care, and our kids
47:31
Speaker 5: are ringing about not going to a party and my
47:33
Speaker 5: daughter's fone is playing up for something and she was complaining.
47:36
Speaker 5: And this girl sat up and she said, my father
47:38
Speaker 5: tried to sell me to someone when I was eleven,
47:41
Speaker 5: to an old man I was going to get married off.
47:43
Speaker 5: And they kind of changed the conversation. From then she
47:46
Speaker 5: told us her story about how she came here on
47:48
Speaker 5: a boat. Now she didn't even know where Australia was.
47:51
Speaker 5: She wasn't allowed to study or go to school. Just
47:53
Speaker 5: that perspective our kids got by sharing a meal and
47:57
Speaker 5: living with other kids was more growing up than they
48:00
Speaker 5: had got in school.
48:00
Speaker 4: I think it was fantastic.
48:02
Speaker 1: Yeah, another example of empathy.
48:05
Speaker 2: Ry Allen, thank you for your time today and thank
48:06
Speaker 2: you for your service to the community.
48:09
Speaker 4: Awesome.
48:09
Speaker 5: Thank you too for being a good representation of anthical journalism.
48:13
Speaker 5: I appreciate it. I try my best.
48:17
Speaker 1: And that's Corey Ellen. There lost of journalism, a gain
48:21
Speaker 1: to the community.
48:22
Speaker 2: Fantastic career and I hope that that spirit is not
48:25
Speaker 2: lost in Queensland Police and also find its way into
48:29
Speaker 2: other police forces. That the value of empathy, the knowing
48:33
Speaker 2: the extented ones authority and the fact that authority does
48:36
Speaker 2: come from the community, so police always need to bear
48:40
Speaker 2: that in mind that you think they'll have better careers
48:43
Speaker 2: and maybe have better outcomes. If you have any information
48:46
Speaker 2: about a crime, please call crime Stoppers one and out
48:48
Speaker 2: a triple three, triple zero. If you don't trust the cops,
48:52
Speaker 2: you can always send me an email Adam Shanner, writer
48:54
Speaker 2: at gmail dot com.
48:56
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening. This has been Adam shan for
48:58
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49:08
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49:09
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49:12
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