Latest / Everyday Ancestral with James Barry / From Picky Eating to Gut Healing: Kate Pope on Nourishing Your Child the Ancestral Way

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From Picky Eating to Gut Healing: Kate Pope on Nourishing Your Child the Ancestral Way · Everyday Ancestral with James Barry

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If you've ever been in that situation as a parent where your child just won't stop crying,
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you know, or you're noticing a health ailment that's coming up and you just feel scared.
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Or maybe your baby is about to start eating food and there's 50 different ways you can
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start feeding them and you just don't know where to start.
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I'm Chef James Berry and I'm the host of Everyday Incessial and I think you're going to
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really love our next guest, Kate Pope.
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She will answer all of your questions around, what do I feed my baby?
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What should I be thinking about as I'm pregnant?
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She's going to be talking about picky eating and in general what it means to heal our gut
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and how we can start looking at food truly as medicine.
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So Kate Pope is a mom, a holistic chef and a nutritional therapy practitioner and a certified
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gaps practitioner.
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A lot of certifications, she knows her stuff.
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Through her cooking and nutrition courses, she educates families and communities on the
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importance of local food systems and cooking meals at home for physical, mental and emotional
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health.
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She founded regenerative cooking school in 2019 so that she could reach more parents
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and families around her message advocating gut health and real food for children.
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Kate helps babies and mothers start solids the gut healthy way.
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You can work with Kate in her signature course, Mama Baby Biome or Baby Biome First Foods
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Plan where their husband, Alex, they've self published three cookbooks, cooking and
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active love, every meal, healing and a guide to a regenerative Thanksgiving.
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Please enjoy Kate Pope.
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As parents, we want our kids to thrive, we want them to be healthy, happy, but what does
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that actually look like because when you're a new parent, you're kind of lost, right?
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So I'm super excited to dive into that with you.
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The first, let's address the elephant in the room.
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You are the wild nutritionist, what's wild about you and dive into like, what is a wild
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nutritionist?
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Oh, I love that you asked that because there is a reason for my name and it was super
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lucky.
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I was actually working a private chef job when I thought of it.
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I was chopping in the kitchen and I was like, oh my God, wild nutritionist.
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I wonder if it's taken and this was in like 2020, maybe like a little bit after that and
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I looked and it was available and so I like got it right away, I was like, oh my gosh.
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So what does it mean to me?
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Basically to be a wild nutritionist means I'm connected with the cycle of life and death.
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I really value regenerative agriculture.
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I value the life cycle and I respect birth and I respect death and everything that comes
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with that.
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Comes to our food, that means eating those to tail, that means handling raw meat, that
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means learning how to use a knife and potentially later in life it will mean hunting and acquiring
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my own food.
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But as much as I can be connected to source life and also understanding that that comes
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to an end, that really connects me to my wildness ultimately.
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So a lot of times what we become is a contrast to what we started out as.
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So what kind of happen early on in your life to make nutrition a focus for you later in
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your life?
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I've always been a rebel.
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I've always been going against the grain and figuring out what could work for me even
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if it's not what's working for the masses and I was a dancer.
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So my background is in dance.
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And I studied like modern dance and choreography.
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I did a lot with dance and social justice working in juvenile detention centers and that
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kind of thing, really cool community work in like 2010, 2009.
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After my career in dance, I basically had a adrenal fatigue.
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I saw a Chinese medicine practitioner and she taught me about, you know, basically
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like the importance of red meat and butter.
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And I became a local warrior and I started sourcing from farmers and then I just had this
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like fire lit in me about sourcing local food and how it made so much sense to me because
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I was like, well, if you just source the highest quality food, it tastes so much better and
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it's so much better for your body and it's so much better for the earth.
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So why is everyone not doing this?
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And that's when I founded regenerative cooking school and started to teach other people
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how to do that, how to source locally, how to use the harvest all year long and how to
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leverage it specifically to heal your body.
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What was your diet prior to that diagnosis of the adrenal fatigue work?
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Were you eating meat?
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Just not local meat.
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I had like a phase of vegetarianism in college because I thought that would, I was actually
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challenged by these like Irish guys when I was on a study abroad.
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Like if you care about the earth, you would be a vegetarian and I was like, okay.
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And I went for it and I was six months in and my mom was like, you don't look so good.
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I was like, I think it's fine.
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And then I was like, eh, that didn't work for me.
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So I was like uninformed at the time and just kind of figuring it out, right?
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Trying to be like an activist and helping tend to the earth as I can as a responsible
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human.
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But I was eating like, I always was health minded.
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In my mind, healthy was like, I always had a protein.
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So I always had steak or chicken or something.
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And then I would eat like a lot of like raw broccoli in college or like try to eat avocado
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but it was actually too fatty for me, couldn't digest it.
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And so I didn't forget those things until much later.
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And now I eat like a very high fat meat based diet with local and seasonal vegetables.
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But what made the difference from not being able to tolerate fat to then being able
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to tolerate fat?
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Because I have a feeling that's also led you to what you're doing now.
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Oh, yeah.
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For sure.
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I mean, the healing process, it was just a continuous unfolding.
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So obviously I was very inspired by the immediate results that I got from just starting to
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eat local meat.
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Like once I started shopping local, I never went back to conventional meat.
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It was just like, oh, I'm always going to have this relationship with my farmer, which
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I found very valuable.
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I'm always going to prioritize this at any income level.
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And I'm going to just like scrap my way to getting the quality meats.
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And those results were showing through my body.
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So what I know now about dealing my gallbladder and essentially helping myself digest fats
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is that you need healthy fats to have your gallbladder work properly.
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And things like meat stock, eating more butter, increasing my fat slowly are actually the
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things that helped me to have a functioning healthy gallbladder digest those fats and
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thus use the fat soluble vitamins to heal my brain.
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There are so many doctors that are removing people's gallbladders and then they don't
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actually tell them, oh, you can't digest fat now.
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And they don't give them any support around it because they don't, it's not even talked
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about.
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Yeah, it's crazy.
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The amount of women that just get their gallbladder removed on a whim or like basically they're
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having a gallbladder attack, which I've had before.
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It's so painful.
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So you go to the emergency room, but usually by the time you get to the emergency room,
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your gallbladder has already passed the stone.
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So there's no need to remove the gallbladder, but they do it anyway.
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And then luckily your liver can actually create a little pouch, which can secrete bile.
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So your liver can grow a little pouch, which does a little bit of help.
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But yeah, you really need to then rely on ox bile supplements your whole life and your
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time you eat dietary fat.
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It's a huge deal to take out your gallbladder.
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In case there's people that are listening or watching that are just like, I have gallbladder
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issues, like what have you found is usually the cause for so many gallbladder issues?
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Well, the cause is typically low in poor fat diets.
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So a diet like I was raised eating like seed oils, canola oil.
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I didn't eat a ton of fat in my diet and toxins, right?
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So toxins come in and all of that create these like little balls that are stuck in our
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bile ducts and we're not eating any fat.
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So we're not using that literal muscle to produce the bile to push out those stones and
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they just get stuck there.
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So then let's now dive into really what you kind of specialize in, right?
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Which is supporting parents who have just had kids or about to have kids and supporting
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their kids into their first foods and beyond.
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But kind of made you focus on that initially.
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The really beautiful part about babies is that they bring forth so much truth and light
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to your situation.
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So when my son was born, he was born in the hospital system and by Cicerian and he reflected
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symptoms right back to me and I really was determined to have answers and just like,
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wow, if this could happen to me, I'm a relatively informed person when it comes to natural
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health and the doctor sent me home with like laxatives and painkillers and like, there's
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no discussion about what's happened to my son's microbiome, what's happened to my
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bronchrobiome.
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You know, I just had like a huge surgical procedure and I'm left with no information and
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I really want to get this out there that there is actually very important steps to take
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for people.
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And so once I started talking about my son's journey, my own birth, that really just
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changed the trajectory of my business because people wanted to share it so much because
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I believe that it's happening.
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So many women can relate to having the birth, you know, that they didn't want.
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So I've spun it into a web of good, which is wonderful and I've since had another baby
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born at home with no medical intervention and both my children are really well adapted
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and thriving and happy.
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But I always want to give parents the tools to take back their power and I believe that
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starts in the kitchen.
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I love it.
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Well, before we get right to those tools, I want to ask you, what is your philosophy
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around that idea because we also, our first born was also born in the hospital, not intended.
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It was really hard emotionally, particularly for me because I wasn't, you know, drugged
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up at that point.
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So I cried a lot when my wife was getting prepared to go get the cesarean.
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I just cried because it was not the birth story that we wanted in.
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So I'm just kind of curious, what philosophy have you taken on since you've experienced
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that?
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And then of course, now you're working with so many families.
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Are you familiar with that thought of like, well, the baby comes into the world, how
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they need to come in and do you buy that or what's your philosophy on that?
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I don't buy that in regards to a C section, particularly in my case.
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I can only speak to mine, but, you know, also if we look at the statistics of cesareans,
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they're much higher than they need to be.
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I believe that my situation was a case of just fear, not being prepared, myself not
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being prepared in terms of having the right team around me to say, you know, somebody
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to go forehead to forehead with me and say, Kate, this is just a part of the process.
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You've got this.
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We're hunkering in.
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Instead, my energy was met with, oh, I'm afraid of this too.
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We have to transfer once we got to the hospital.
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It was really a lot of dead ends.
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And I feel that both my son and I were robbed from the experience of a lifetime, which is
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a vaginal birth.
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And I'm a 100% healthy woman.
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I believe there are so small ranges of emergency cases that do require surgical birth.
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And I don't see that that was the case for my son and I, of course, we can never know.
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But I think that I mourn his birth, you know, I celebrate his life.
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And I am going to help him the best that I possibly can.
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But I think that ultimately we were both robbed of an experience that is once in a lifetime.
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I feel that and I hear you on that.
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Let's dive into the person that's listening or watching that has had this, let's give
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them a little uplift of like, okay, if you just had it or maybe recently, what are some
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things they should be thinking about?
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And I think this will also help the person that hasn't had the child yet.
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That maybe is pregnant right now.
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And who may be in a scenario where they have to have a certain, so let's dive into what
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should we as parents be thinking about and really preparing for when the unexpected accessory
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happens?
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Absolutely.
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So the first thing that I like to do in this case is remove the moral from it.
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It's not a good or a bad that you have had a sister, you're not a good or a bad mom
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because you've had a sister and you just have had one and we need to look at the physiologic
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truth of this, right?
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There is absolutely something that has changed in your body and there's something that has
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been different with your child's body because they don't go through the motions of birth
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as birth is meant to be and they are not also contacting the microbes.
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So there's many, many ways that I have worked to heal the pain that has come from having
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the cesarean birth as well as the physical changes that have occurred in my body.
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All of those drugs were huge.
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I mean, I was just thinking about this the other day, like I'm such a clean living person.
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I eat this beautiful diet that it worked so hard on.
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I prepared my body for two years, both my husband and I before we had our baby and then
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we just got like morphine, fetinol and antibiotics, stomach acid reducing drug, like so many things
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that are just way far out from the realm of my everyday life and that's really intense
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that like our system is there.
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But I don't want to shame mothers or really even shame myself because that was just that
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was the path.
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So acceptance is key and after that, we can really get to work with some very nourishing
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foods that help the body repair.
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So tissue building foods are very, very important after any birth and especially a cesarean as
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tissue has been cut, but in vaginal birth, there's tears that happen, there's expansion
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and we want this like super supple tissue to go back to its holding and so we need a lot
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of collagen rich foods and that's actually very convenient because our baby also means
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those collagen rich foods and so breastfeeding is something that came really easily for me
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luckily even after a cesarean and I was eating so much nutrient dense foods which was passing
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to my baby and helping him heal.
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So that is like the foundation of Post Burr foods.
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We really want to emphasize the collagen rich cuts of meat, meat close to the bone, lots
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of animal fats that's going to warm and nourish your system and help tissues rebuild.
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Excellent.
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And just so we cover it in case anyone doesn't know, when you mentioned the microbes, when
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the baby's being born, you're talking about the microbes that are in the vaginal tract
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right as the baby's coming out.
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Absolutely.
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And the vaginal flora informs or seeds the baby's microbiome.
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So you're passing on your microbiome all the good and all the bad to your baby and your
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partner is also contributing their microbiome because mother and father or whatever the arrangement
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is, they have sexual contact and that makes like a mix of a microbiome and that informs
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the baby's microbiome.
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So when the baby's born, they're covered in all of the birth and that is basically setting
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their gut up for life.
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And there's a lot of talk about the first one thousand days.
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So that includes all the time in the womb and up until the child is about two years old
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and that's the most formative for shaping the microbiome and ultimately shaping the palate
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and in my understanding, shaping the immune system as well as the brain health.
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I love it.
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So what kind of foods do you recommend people should be focusing on during that?
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You said how many days?
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A thousand, first one thousand days, yeah.
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A thousand days.
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Yeah, so that is in utero and when the baby's born up until they're about two years old
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and like I started this podcast saying, I healed my gut when I was much later.
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So if your baby's four, your child's four or six or ten, it's not like you're too late
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to the party, but we do have a particularly golden opportunity to influence our children
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in these first one thousand days.
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So in the womb, you want to be, while the baby's in the womb, you want to be eating lots
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of nutrient-dense foods so that the baby has adequate nutrition to grow.
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And that looks like animal-based foods are really, really wonderful.
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You want to get in your ancestral foods like liver, bone marrow, all the animal fats.
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I want to make sure you're getting lots of sunshine, touching the earth, good sleep, low
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toxic load, filter your water, that kind of thing really important.
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And then on top of that, I would say adding in beneficial strains of yeast and bacteria
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ideally through fermented foods.
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So that can look like fermented dairy, things like yogurt, kefir, cultured butter, or it
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can be vegetables like beets and cabbage, you know, into sauerkraut, fermented carrots,
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all of those are super lovely.
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And you want to eat them daily and you want to like make your whole life around them,
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you know, you can actually put them in your sinuses.
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You can put kefir on your vaginal wall up until the birth, you know, it's really wonderful
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to use these fermented foods not just to consume them, but all over the body.
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And it's so lovely, as you mentioned, because you are helping to shape the palate.
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One thing I'm always talking to people about is, you know, if you're following the standard
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American diet, you are skewed towards salty sweet.
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And that's a lot of times why kids are so picky.
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It's like they need exposure to these other flavors, the bitter, the sour, the umami.
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And that's what you're creating when you're eating these foods in utero.
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And then, of course, you want to continue once the baby's out.
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And so let's talk about like babies first foods rather than calling it baby lead weaning.
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I call it microbiome lead weaning.
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And so we just want to be really particular about what goes into the baby's mouth and what's
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shaping and feeding the bugs that are inside of us because we have 10 times as many microbial
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cells as we have human cells.
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So obviously, the state of that microbial world is very powerful for how we feel as humans,
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for our babies.
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The first food that I feed and teach all moms to feed their baby is meat stock.
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And meat stock is not bone broth.
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It's different meat stock is made always from a piece of meat with a joint in it.
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So there's more meat on the bone than your typical idea of a bone broth.
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And you cook it for a much shorter period of time.
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So bone broths are 24 or 36 hours meat stock for chicken is one to two hours.
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You always use a collagenous cut.
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So my favorites are like feet, next heads and you make a jelly stock.
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So in the fridge, it's solid and jiggly.
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And that's the first food because it is full of minerals.
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It's very collagen rich and it primes digestion for the rest of foods that you try.
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And it also is a great balancer for the microbiome because it takes care of the mucosal lining,
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which is the house where the majority of the gut microbes live.
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Meat stock is so gentle.
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I think that's a lot of people don't realize that bone broth can be particularly for a digestion
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system that's delicate or just forming.
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It can be too intense.
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Yeah, meat stock is like the primer food.
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It's the base for everything.
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So after you have your meat stock that has their first food, then you can go on and make
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purees out of the meat stock as the base.
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You can add in layers of animal fat.
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So if you start with meat stock from a chicken, you might add in a little bit of lard, you
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might add in a little bit of ghee, you might add in a little bit of coconut oil, mix it
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up different fats for different days.
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And then you can go on to pureing vegetables in there.
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You can add in drops of sauerkraut, brine.
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So you really start with these powerful liquid foods that are very nutrient dense, but are
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still so easily assimilated by the body and they also help to build.
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I make a huge point to teach parents.
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We want to build the baby's body.
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We build the body.
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We give the body building tools and ourselves can regenerate.
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I mean, babies, they're so generative.
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So they're just making, making, making all the time, aka growing.
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And the more tools we give them for that, the more efficient that system is.
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I had some friends who they were working with a pediatrician, and I think it was a functional,
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someone that was more functional, but they were all about introducing allergen foods to
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the baby early with like little pricks, not actually having them eat the food, but they
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were exposing them, thinking that I guess the philosophy is that the exposure is going
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to help them early on create the antibodies for it or whatnot.
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And so to not then be allergic to it later, what is your thought around that?
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And I'm talking about peanuts, I'm talking about probably other nuts and seeds as well.
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And even like egg, egg white and yolk.
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So I kind of go against the grain on this one.
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I am not a huge fan of nuts before one, even though that's very much pushed.
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The reason being is because nuts are super hard to digest, they're not necessarily ancestral
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and they're hard to get into a form that's actually not rancid.
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The most important thing I emphasize to parents about allergens is understanding why an allergic
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reaction would happen in the first place.
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And that comes back to the gut health.
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So if the gut is functioning and we are able to digest our foods and there is no leaky
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gut, which is either caused from toxins or undigested food or imbalanced microbes.
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In leaky gut, let's just explain what that is for anyone that doesn't know.
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It's actually when the food particles are going into your bloodstream.
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Correct.
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And babies, so part of the reason my meat stock is such a good first food is because babies
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are born with a immature gut.
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Their gut's not fully formed when they come out of the womb and breast milk helps to heal
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and seal and continue to form the gut.
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It closes all those holes further develops the digestive system.
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So when we transition from breast milk to solids, we really want the foods to continue what
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breast milk is doing.
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We want those foods to mimic that, which is why I love meat stock because it's full of
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that collagen and gelatin, all those amino acids, which can easily become the building
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box to heal and seal the gut.
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So if the gut is healed and sealed, that means all food is being properly digested and
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staying in the digestive tract, whereas an allergen comes from a food being improperly
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digested, going into the bloodstream and the immune system rightly says, this is not
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belong here.
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This is a big deal.
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I need to flag this.
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I need to create a reaction in the system so that an alarm is sounded that this food is
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not the food for me.
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So in terms of the small microdosing of the foods, I'm fine with that with the proper
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foundation laid.
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For example, egg is a very nutrient dense food.
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Egg is a food that I would want my kid to eat every single day because the nutrient
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profile is so big and it's really, really good for kids for growth.
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A nut?
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I don't care so much about my kid eating a nut.
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I don't want them to have an anaphylactic reaction to it.
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But if their body is adequately digesting foods, that's not even in the realm of possibilities.
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So when it comes to trying egg for the first time, after a couple of weeks of meat stock,
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we drop a little bit of yolk into the meat stock to make sure that it's just a small amount.
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We want to test out that reaction.
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Is this baby going to be reactive to the yolk?
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If they do have a reaction to it, then we know, okay, we've tried very few foods.
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Clearly, when we introduce the egg that caused a reaction, let's remove the egg from
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now.
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Continue with building foods.
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We just support the gut and the microbiome and we'll reintroduce the egg just the yolk
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a couple weeks later and we work like that in slow amounts.
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There's a reason why the yolk is preferred as a first-interaction to eggs over the whites.
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Can you share a little bit about that?
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Absolutely.
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So the yolk is where all the nutrients are, first of all, it's the most nutrient dense
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part.
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It has the vitamin A, it has vitamin D, it has colon, it has B vitamins, it's the best part
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of the egg.
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The white is like water and a little bit of protein and it tends to be more reactive
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to people.
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It also tends to keylate toxins more so the yolk is just more nutrient dense, less reactive,
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the white doesn't have as much nutrition and people tend to react to it more.
24:09
So we start with the yolk first and many people have a lot of success just with the yolks
24:13
and using this method that we're previously reacting to eggs through breast milk or couldn't
24:18
tolerate eggs before doing my program and healing the gut.
24:23
Now you have a specific position around eggs because I guess sometimes parents will face
24:30
their child saying like, I don't want to eat eggs anymore and I've experienced that,
24:34
I guess, as an adult where I go through phases of really wanting eggs and sometimes not.
24:39
But you are positioned specifically around kids that are refusing eggs.
24:42
Can you talk about that?
24:43
Yeah, so this was really funny because my son was so into eggs and he loved eggs and
24:48
it was like it's a staple food for us.
24:50
And then one day he was just like not into the eggs anymore and I'm like that's so weird
24:53
and this is like pretty much pre-verbal, you know, maybe had a few sign language things
24:57
and I'm like, that's weird.
24:58
So I kind of like was sitting with it for a while, increased the butter.
25:01
I always think that like, make sure the eggs taste really good, like plenty of butter,
25:04
plenty of salt.
25:05
All right, we've got the fat soluble vitamins covered because there's nutrient synergy.
25:09
So we need to be able to have fats in order to digest and use the really beautiful vitamin
25:15
A that's in the egg.
25:16
So butter is really important or any other animal fat if you're having trouble with dairy.
25:20
But then I thought, okay, well, what if I put this with liver?
25:23
And I serve him with liver and suddenly he is like gobbling up his eggs again.
25:28
And so for me, that pings something in my mind like, okay, there must be some sort of nutrition
25:33
in the liver that helps to digest the egg and therefore he's interested in eating the
25:38
egg again.
25:39
Whereas before he had maybe had a little too much of something in the egg and was not
25:42
interested.
25:43
And I've since tried this with tons of moms and it works really, really well.
25:47
And we also use pluck.
25:49
Cluck is like super easy to just sprinkle on the eggs.
25:51
My daughter, she'll spit out eggs that are playing.
25:53
She swallows eggs that have pluck on them.
25:55
I love you now speaking my love language here.
26:00
That is fascinating because really what you're talking about is this synergistic properties
26:04
of food and I don't really get to die that deep with people very often about that.
26:08
So I want to expand on that.
26:10
But before we do, because you've now brought up organ meats, I find it fascinating.
26:17
I've talked to midwives, I've talked to doulas.
26:20
They all say they can tell when the mother has eaten organ meats because the placenta is
26:25
beautiful, color wise and size wise.
26:29
And I also hear the milk production is flowing.
26:35
It's like really good.
26:37
What is it that expecting moms and of course parents that are just had a baby should know
26:44
about organs and what they're not getting from these other foods that they are getting
26:49
from those?
26:51
Organ meats historically, if you look at the ancestral patterns, they were always saved
26:57
for women and children.
26:58
So there was a knowing that the organs had specific nutrients that we need for the child
27:03
bearing continuum.
27:05
And I have found that to be so true in my own lived experience.
27:08
I have eaten so many organs.
27:10
I've eaten as much as I can get my hands on.
27:13
Never had brain because we can't get it here.
27:15
I'm going to get that for you.
27:16
I have brain.
27:17
I'm excited.
27:18
I have brain.
27:19
That's a product.
27:20
We're going to be coming out with cinnamon brain.
27:22
It'll be my first taste tester.
27:24
Okay.
27:25
Perfect.
27:26
Can't wait.
27:27
And you know what's so funny actually, I say I can't get brain, but I do get chicken
27:28
heads and I make meats stock out of those.
27:29
So there's brain in there.
27:30
So that's good.
27:31
Anyway, I love organ meats, liver, postpartum, absolutely brought the life back into me.
27:37
It was a food that I started my son on as a first food, my daughter as well.
27:42
And it really is a part of our whole food ethos like we truly eat nose to tail.
27:47
We truly cook liver in all the ways that you could think of.
27:51
We just love it.
27:52
And it wasn't something I always loved.
27:53
It was something that I learned to love because I knew it was good for me.
27:57
And it's the most nutrient dense food on the planet, meaning for gram, it has the
28:01
most wide range of nutrition that we could eat.
28:04
And it's all found in nature.
28:06
And so we can digest it too, which is really important.
28:09
Love it.
28:10
So going back to synergistic properties of food, babies born, we're now entering first
28:17
foods.
28:18
Are there other synergistic things you found egg and liver were very synergistic?
28:25
Yeah.
28:26
Other food as baby is growing that you have found are really synergistic to support that
28:30
microbiome health.
28:31
Totally.
28:32
Always animal fats paired with vegetables.
28:35
So if you're ever serving vegetables, they need to be served with animal fats because
28:39
any of those plant vitamins that are inside broccoli, for example, are going to be unlocked,
28:45
served with bone marrow, okay?
28:46
And we need babies to digest these foods using the animal fat.
28:51
So that's another synergistic one that's really important.
28:53
And then the other thing that comes to mind is just like flavor, right?
28:56
So we want things to taste really good.
28:59
If you're feeding your baby's food, it should also taste really good to you too, you know?
29:02
I don't think it needs to be like crazy overseas and especially in the beginning.
29:06
But it's like, you know, I give my babies warming spices.
29:09
I like to use things like cumin and ginger and garlic and make my baby's food taste good.
29:15
My children's food taste good so that they just have a lot of adventurous ways about
29:21
them.
29:23
Love it.
29:23
Yeah.
29:24
It's so fascinating to me when I meet adults or even kids that just don't have any interest
29:30
in flavor or they've grown up with eating such bland food that now it's almost scary
29:34
or too unknown for them.
29:37
Ultimately, when we start talking about flavor as kids get older, we're really kind of delving
29:41
into like picky eating and how to either support picky eating or not support it.
29:46
Have you had a much experience with not only picky eaters, but supporting parents with
29:51
their picky eaters?
29:53
Absolutely.
29:54
First of all, one of the biggest pitches that I make for starting solids this way is that
29:58
you are literally shaping your child's microbiome and thus shaping their palate.
30:03
So the microbiome of the mouth, if it's healthy and diverse, it's going to be really excited
30:08
by different flavors and in nature, flavor equals nutrient density.
30:13
So liver has a very unique flavor, but it's also the most nutrient dense.
30:17
So that flavor-packed food is a signal to the body that, oh, this is really good for
30:23
us, which makes sense because what's been hijacked in modern times is our taste buds.
30:28
They have made these ultra-processed foods which are chemically laid in to make us have
30:33
this dopamine hit to continue to go back for more and for more.
30:36
And that's what's happening with a picky eater.
30:38
They're not just picky.
30:39
They're addicted to sugar and that has to do with their microbiome.
30:42
So my picky eater approach is all about the microbiome health.
30:46
I talk about changing the family culture, which is both around, you know, what is your
30:51
attitude around food, how is the family gathering around the table, how are the children involved
30:57
in the food practices, and also, let's not lie to ourselves and say that certain foods
31:01
are as nutritious as others, right, because the bean is not as nutritious as steak.
31:06
And so we have to be real with that and understand how the body uses nutrients, how the body
31:11
digest foods, and that's going to help you understand which battles you need to pick
31:15
with your children and which ones you just need to leave behind and let the body lead
31:20
the way.
31:21
Yeah.
31:22
I love it.
31:23
So you're clearly not a fan of dino-shaped chicken nuggets.
31:26
No.
31:27
I don't understand how anyone gets results with that.
31:29
I think it's just appeasing the child.
31:32
I assume that you're also a fan of like there is no kid menu.
31:36
It's people menu, right?
31:38
Totally.
31:39
Yeah.
31:40
My kids have never eaten off the kid menu.
31:41
He eats oyster steak, clam.
31:42
We actually, on the menu, we're just looking for the least toxic thing on the menu.
31:46
That's typically what we're trying to figure out because it's hard to go to places that
31:51
don't use seed oils or don't use sugar.
31:55
We're trying to find the nutrient dense food that doesn't have something that's going
31:58
to make his body eat.
32:00
Yeah.
32:01
Which is hopefully going to start improving, but yes, it's challenging.
32:05
The reality is is that kid menus are designed not for nutritional density, they're designed
32:10
for price, right?
32:11
Right.
32:12
And entertainment.
32:13
Yeah.
32:14
Everyone just assumes that like when you go out to dinner, you pretty much just want your
32:17
kid to like not scream at the table and that means like appeasing them and I have a completely
32:21
different perspective on, you know, just how children belong in society.
32:25
I think that's disrespectful to give a child a French fry that's basically a mop for toxic
32:30
oils and unrefined salt and a breaded chicken that's covered in glyphosate.
32:36
I think that's horrible.
32:37
How do you navigate a topic that both disturbs me?
32:42
You know, I have some solutions, but I fear is kind of a part of our food system, the
32:48
way it's structured right now, which is the idea of you have to be wealthy to be healthy
32:54
because some of these foods that we're talking about, they are more expensive.
32:58
Some of these restaurants that serve these things are more expensive.
33:02
Some people don't have the time or I should say they could have the time, but they don't
33:06
make the time and potentially have the knowledge of making a lot of these foods from scratch.
33:12
So they're looking for that quick fix, but what are some kind of cost-effective tools that
33:18
you've found that not only support people's time, but also their wallet?
33:22
Yeah, we live our priorities every single day.
33:25
So if you want to prioritize home cooking, you're going to have to prioritize it and
33:29
simply just start where you are.
33:31
I rely so much on ground beef, ground pork, and organ meats that we get the heads for
33:37
two dollars a pound.
33:38
We buy the skin.
33:39
I look, I say, oh, you have boneless, skinless, chicken breasts.
33:41
Where do you do with the skin?
33:42
Oh, we throw it away.
33:43
Okay.
33:44
I'd like to buy that from you.
33:45
Thank you.
33:46
I make delicious crispy skin chips for my kids and we dip them in avocado dip, something
33:52
like that.
33:53
Cheap cuts of meat are always going to be heavily relying on the ground.
33:56
Getting the organs, those are also going to be sold very affordably to you using the
34:02
bones, that kind of thing.
34:04
If you are not in a place to buy all of your stuff locally or you can't invest fully in
34:09
regenerative agriculture, still buy meat, still buy from the grocery store.
34:14
Like I'm pro meat, no matter where you can get it, because I think that once you start
34:20
to genuinely make all your home cooked meals, you stop relying on processed foods, even
34:24
if you're buying meat, just regular from the grocery store, you're going to start to
34:28
see a change in your health and eventually your body is going to say, I think I want
34:32
to upgrade this and you're going to find a way to make that grass-fed meat happen because
34:36
the body breeds health.
34:38
We just want health.
34:39
We go towards health.
34:40
We get more health.
34:41
And I find that with my people who are not able to start buying all regenerative, which
34:45
hello was me in the beginning to, eventually their body just leads them to a certain way
34:51
and they feel way better because of it.
34:53
Yes, thank you so much for spreading that message.
34:56
I'm always telling people, we cannot only focus on, you know, is it regenerative?
35:01
Is it 100% grass-fed and let that dictate whether we eat something or not, like sometimes
35:07
even the stress around that is freezing us from making the right choice and the right
35:11
choice is just get the animal product in, get that nutrient-dense food into you and
35:16
let that affect your health and help support the next decision you make.
35:21
Exactly.
35:22
I'm avoiding it because it's too expensive or doesn't fit what, you know, influencer
35:27
A in social media has told you is this is the only option, you know?
35:31
Absolutely.
35:32
And I also think that the other part that's really important to this is the community aspect
35:37
of actually meeting your farmer.
35:39
And so like going and building relationship is going to help you understand that process
35:43
even more and it's going to connect the dots for you for a bigger picture of what's actually
35:47
happening with our food system.
35:50
And I think that honestly, it was my favorite part about changing my diet and I started
35:55
to teach it thinking like, oh, people maybe are not going to like this or whatever.
35:59
And they come back to me and they're like, hey, I love my beef farmer.
36:01
I talk to them every week and you know, it's just, it's so fun that they have this whole
36:06
new perspective on food, it's no longer a chore, it's a gift.
36:10
And like you said earlier, it exposes you to new cuts of the animal, right?
36:15
Yeah.
36:16
I know that you would never get at the butcher shop, particularly at a more conventional market.
36:22
So there was this comment on one of the posts about picky eating.
36:26
I saw and I wanted to share what this person asked or what their experience is.
36:32
What they were recommended by the pediatricians and the school counselors to do.
36:36
And I would love to hear the feedback you would have given this person.
36:40
This person says both their kids are picky eaters, they asked multiple pediatricians and
36:46
the school counselor and they all said the same thing.
36:49
They said, give them 30 minutes to finish their food.
36:52
If they don't finish, take it away and repeat the same for the meals after and the person
36:56
states how he and his wife are just throwing away all this food and they hate it.
37:02
Here is a fight with the kids that it's a kind of a constant thing.
37:06
So that was very interesting feedback that these pediatricians and school counselors are
37:11
giving.
37:12
It's not at all how I would handle it.
37:14
So how would you handle it?
37:15
Yeah.
37:16
So these are school age children.
37:18
Yes.
37:19
My first inclination is to really get the kids involved in the cooking because they're
37:25
at an age where they have some agency, they have skills, they have hands.
37:28
And I have seen so many times where parents just take a food that they're typically used
37:32
to eating.
37:33
Let's say chicken nuggets and it comes from a bag, you take some ground beef and ground
37:37
pork, mix it together, get the kids hands in there, add some pluck seasoning, do a pork
37:42
grind, breading, fried and lard, and let your kids taste those homemade chicken nuggets
37:48
that you've been made together.
37:49
You have a nutrient and smell on your hand.
37:51
That's something that's familiar for them and they made it themselves.
37:55
So it's a win all around.
37:56
I see that kids are much more willing to try foods when they have experience making it
38:02
and when also the parents are involved in showing that they really want to do this too.
38:07
It's a great first and fourth step for parents to take their kids down that journey of participation
38:13
in the kitchen and making the food, trying the different food at different stages as well,
38:18
the raw stage, the cook stage, you know, thinking like vegetables like taste a bell pepper
38:22
before it's cooked.
38:23
Now it's cooked.
38:24
Now it's with fat.
38:25
But for the parent that let's just say they don't have the time yet to do that, right?
38:30
They've made the meal.
38:32
Do you have a certain philosophy that you apply in your own house like, hey, when meals
38:38
are cooked, this is how we treat it.
38:40
For example, are you making, if your kid says, hey, I don't want this food, which obviously
38:45
your kids aren't doing, but let's just say a parent says that, my kid's not eating this
38:49
food.
38:50
I don't have the time to include them in the cooking because we have 30 minutes and this
38:54
little kid will make it take an hour, right?
38:56
It's a good kind of philosophy that they should have in the household around like making
39:01
meals.
39:02
Clearly, we don't want them making multiple meals.
39:05
Is it kind of like you eat what you get or you just don't eat?
39:09
How would you kind of coach that parent?
39:12
My approach is definitely leaning towards the parental authority.
39:17
So you have to own your authority as a parent.
39:19
You have to be clear about what your food values are for your kids.
39:24
When a food is served, that is what is served.
39:27
So I don't make any other options.
39:29
I don't recommend children or parents have other options with the exception of a few
39:33
foods.
39:34
So we all have desires and taste preferences, right?
39:38
At any time of the day, my son can have scrambled eggs with butter and he can have meat stock.
39:43
He can have beacovass or he can have kefir.
39:46
So if any four of those options appeal to him over what my husband and I have made for
39:51
him, he may have that option.
39:53
But generally speaking, families and food, they should be tied together.
39:59
So I would really want to understand like, okay, a parent gives me something that they
40:03
say, no, we don't have time to cook with our kids.
40:06
Okay, I think that really is an excuse.
40:08
So we're going to make the time to create these rituals around food that actually change
40:13
the food culture of the family.
40:15
Because I don't see picky eating as just one thing.
40:17
Yes, the microbiome is a piece of it.
40:19
Because there is food addiction in these crazy like hijacked taste buds, right?
40:24
But it's more than that.
40:26
It's a family affair, food equals family and we really need to bring families together
40:30
on this.
40:31
And if food is dividing your family, there is something else going on and so I would
40:35
really workshop that.
40:38
Love that answer.
40:39
Wow.
40:40
Yes, sometimes it's an indication of there's a crack in the foundation.
40:45
It is a together thing.
40:47
So like for us, yes, there's healing foods, there's preferences, sometimes soggy ones scrambled
40:52
eggs.
40:53
Okay, we'll make you scrambled eggs.
40:53
But typically after he eats scrambled eggs, he's like, oh, I have the soup.
40:56
I mean, we just rarely are getting food refusal from him.
40:59
And I truly think that has to do with how my husband and I revolve our lives around
41:03
our foods and how important and special it becomes for our family.
41:07
And also his microbiome, how I set it up.
41:10
Regardless that he had a C section, I was able to heal and bring balance to the system
41:14
so that he's an incredibly adventurous eater whose favorite food is clams.
41:19
What you bring up on your point, so you healed his gut.
41:23
What are the signs that a parent is looking for or is it just through testing?
41:29
No testing.
41:30
I don't do any testing in my practice.
41:31
I just use my eyes and there's a couple things that I would go through.
41:35
So sleep, poop, mood and behavior and skin.
41:39
So those four things are going to be constantly kind of like running through a little checklist
41:45
weekly, daily, how is he doing?
41:48
And you can really tell like some things get cleared up right away.
41:51
For example, my son chronically spit up my breast milk.
41:54
I changed my diet three months in and that reduced the spitting up like 80%.
42:00
And then he took his first sip of chicken meat stock, which I made for him.
42:05
He did one big belt and never spit up again.
42:07
So it was like very obvious.
42:09
His stomach lining was damaged.
42:11
There was something going on.
42:13
East overgrowth is most likely.
42:15
He has cradle cap.
42:16
So I saw that too occasionally had rashes that would come up and stick around.
42:20
And so I just constantly attending to those nutritionally and really opening up his detox
42:27
pathway so that it can continue to come out of the body and trusting that this system
42:31
will continue to heal him because it does and will.
42:34
So how do I know he's there basically behavioral things, sleep patterns, instead of being
42:41
constipated, he poops every day, that kind of situation.
42:44
So we just go through the symptoms like that and start to remedy them one by one.
42:49
When you say sleep patterns like eight to 10 hours a night, you know that he's, you're
42:53
12 hours a night.
42:54
Okay.
42:55
Yeah.
42:56
I was going to say because for a little kid that's you want it longer.
42:58
Point being though that you're seeing consistent sleep that he's staying asleep the whole
43:04
time.
43:05
He's not waking up all the time.
43:07
Correct.
43:08
And there's going to be different pain points for different people.
43:10
So like some people, the skin is like the most, the biggest marker, for example.
43:15
So if their skin is, it has eczema, the gut's not done healing.
43:20
For my son, it's more, it leans more towards behavior and stool.
43:24
So I look at those things as a measure.
43:26
He doesn't have much skin issues and he's a really good sleeper.
43:29
So what I'm saying is that like not everyone's going to have a problem with skin, not
43:32
everyone's going to have a problem with sleep, but we always look back to the gut digestion
43:37
in the nutrient and foods as a part of the holistic healing.
43:41
We only know what we know, right?
43:42
So I'm so helping that parents that are not exposed to the, you know, functional nutrition
43:47
that aren't looking at life like that are listing this because a lot of times what's
43:52
happening and I'm thinking directly of one of my daughter's friends early on when we
43:56
lived in Portland, Oregon, she was overweight, clearly had health stuff going on.
44:02
And her parents were noticing ADHD kind of behavior in school and instead of looking at
44:08
the gut and what they're feeding her, the pediatrician said, well, let's get her on
44:13
medication.
44:14
And I fought them with it.
44:15
I mean, I didn't fight, but I was like, I challenged them on it.
44:18
I was like, please, you guys like do A before you do, you know, Z, you know, got thing
44:24
like.
44:25
So is there something you can just impart to the parent that is seeing these symptoms?
44:29
Like what are some of the things that most parents are experiencing that they're thinking,
44:34
oh, I should go to the doctor and this is not related to food.
44:38
Like you're really here to say, no, no, this is related to the gut and it's related
44:41
to what you're feeding them.
44:43
So what are some of those things?
44:45
Is it just everything or let's, maybe we can encapsulate the top things that most parents
44:49
are experiencing with their kids that are probably food related and gut related?
44:53
Absolutely.
44:54
So eczema is often times food related, but more so it's gut related.
45:00
So people will be like, but is it really just the food, Kate, is it really just the food?
45:04
Not necessarily.
45:05
It's what the food is feeding, which is the microbes.
45:07
So the microbes can off gas all sorts of toxins and those toxins then have to be dealt
45:12
with by the body, the liver.
45:14
That just puts another layer of burden on and all the other functions can't be optimized.
45:19
So eczema is one that we always want to look at gut health and then there's co-infections
45:23
on the skin with eczema that come because the pH of the skin is off because there's
45:27
dysbiosis on the skin, which is why I talk about working from the inside out and the outside
45:31
in.
45:32
Constipation.
45:33
That's a huge one.
45:34
So many kids are dealing with constipation and they go to the doctor and they get mirror
45:37
lax.
45:38
And mirror lax is dangerous.
45:39
You're not going to help solve your kid's constipation and there are natural remedies that
45:43
can help your baby's poop come out of their body and then there's long term things that
45:48
we put in place underneath that so that your children's constipation is not ongoing.
45:53
Because this is yes absolutely tied to the gallbladder.
45:56
Like we initially talked about in the first part of the podcast, if there's a congested
46:00
gallbladder in the mom, there's likely going to be a congested gallbladder in the baby.
46:04
It's related to our melatonin, our sunlight exposure.
46:06
It's related to the microbes that are contained inside of our gut.
46:10
And so all of those things we want to look at, it's related to hydration, it's related
46:14
to minerals.
46:15
So all of that we want to approach and we can use food fully to address that.
46:20
Not rely on a band aid fix that's going to create more problems in other organ systems
46:24
down the line.
46:25
Another one I think is picky eating, right?
46:27
I have that microbiome approach, I have that whole family approach.
46:31
Everything I do is really involved in the mother and the baby and I always teach moms
46:35
like, this is the canary in the coal mine.
46:38
Your baby is finally putting in front of you a symptom that you likely needed to solve
46:42
years ago.
46:43
And here it is and you're ready to listen because it's your precious baby who's crying out
46:47
for your help.
46:48
And that happened to me, you know, that's so powerful.
46:51
And it can be life changing for everyone, for the whole family, those symptoms are teachers
46:57
and they resolve so quickly and your babies can thrive and it can impact not only this
47:01
generation, but future generation.
47:03
So that is my message for parents.
47:06
It's like we have the power in our hands and we are the ones who are designed and equipped
47:10
to solve these problems.
47:12
Yes, indeed, empowering parents.
47:15
Before we get off, I do want to touch base on one topic that I personally find very
47:20
fascinating.
47:21
I'm just very, I'm just curious what your perspective is on it.
47:24
So there's this idea, you know, I say this quote a lot when I'm on podcasts, but it's
47:28
like Dr. Bill Schindler, he talks about how we are the only species in the world that
47:33
looks to someone else to tell us what to eat.
47:36
It's even more poignant when you think about how many species there are in the world,
47:39
there's over 8 million.
47:41
So clearly, at one point in our evolution, we did know what to eat.
47:46
We were not so influenced by this marketing and franken food machine that is really only
47:53
150 years old or something like that, right?
47:56
So the question that I sometimes think about is like, well, when we are kids, before we're
48:03
really influenced, now granted, we are sometimes influenced if we're eating like that standard
48:07
American diet or we're already being exposed to some of these ultra-processed foods, we
48:12
have been influenced.
48:14
But a lot of times, that's when we're at a pure estate, our uninfluenced state.
48:19
And so there is this thought that if a kid is like, I don't want to eat this, right?
48:25
And they just constantly refuse it, that actually may be like an indication of like, well,
48:31
they actually know their body better than the parent.
48:34
Like what is your thought around that?
48:36
I think there's a lot of validity in that with the little caveat of the microbiome.
48:41
So what's going on with their microbiome, what's going on with their overall health and
48:45
what choices do they have and what choices are they refusing?
48:49
So for example, with the baby example, if a baby is started only on bananas and other
48:54
pureed fruits like many babies are told to start on, and then you introduce meat stock
48:59
and the baby doesn't like meat stock and refuses it three, four or five times, I'm not
49:03
really surprised by that because the baby has had sweet breast milk or formula or bananas.
49:10
So of course, when they first taste this savory food that's meat stock, they might have
49:13
a little bit of an adverse reaction to it.
49:16
Zoom out to a child who's four years old who has severe autism and puts that meat stock
49:22
in their mouth, that is actually going to be causing a die-off reaction in their mouth,
49:26
which could be physically very uncomfortable.
49:29
And so there are these considerations to take into when it comes to the microbiome and
49:34
how that influences our taste and our preferences.
49:37
And I do genuinely believe that the body knows what's best.
49:42
So once we're able to get on track with healing foods and there aren't really symptoms presenting,
49:47
absolutely.
49:48
I can trust my son's body and what he desires.
49:50
I don't really give him that choice because he's two and a half and I'm in charge.
49:54
And so I'm cooking heart and I'm cooking steak and I'm cooking broccoli and like you're
49:58
eating that, right?
50:00
But to an extent, I value what he brings to the table in terms of what he wants to eat.
50:06
If I let him, he would want to eat bananas all day long.
50:08
But I'm not going to let him eat bananas all day long because that doesn't have the
50:11
nutrition that makes him son to be around or sleep good.
50:14
It changes his poop, right?
50:15
And so I really let him have a banana later.
50:19
Yes, you can have a banana later.
50:21
That's my feeling on that.
50:23
You do bring me bring up one last question because we're talking about empowerment.
50:27
We're talking about looking for our kids for signs of gut issues, thus inspiring the
50:35
things that we need to do for gut healing because you have a two-year-old.
50:39
Do you have a child older than that?
50:41
I have a two and a half year old, almost three and a one year old so far.
50:45
So you are not necessarily there yet, which is what do we do when our kids go to school
50:52
and we no longer have control over what they eat?
50:54
Now, if you're homeschooling great, but if you're not, that's the position we are all
50:59
in.
51:00
And it becomes the biggest disappointment in hurdle that we have to kind of get over philosophically
51:06
of like, oh, our place is not necessarily to control our children's decisions, but really
51:13
give them a foundation of what their body feels like when they get nourishing food.
51:18
Would you agree?
51:19
Absolutely.
51:20
So an example is like I grew up eating like sour patch kids, Skittle is totally addicted
51:25
to candy.
51:26
All that stuff.
51:27
If I smell a sour patch kid now, it smells toxic and chemically to me.
51:31
It's disgusting, right?
51:32
It doesn't make me feel like, oh, I'm sneaking a treat and having like this sour patch kid.
51:37
Like, no, it doesn't feel like that at all.
51:39
It feels like a toxic chemical weird gummy thing that I'd rather not have.
51:44
So the idea here is that I've set my son up for success.
51:47
His body knows health.
51:48
He knows what to go back to is he going to try the blue icing probably.
51:52
Is that going to register as a treat likely not?
51:55
So that's kind of my goal.
51:56
And then we just educate our children, you know, we talk to them about the farmer's
52:00
market.
52:01
It's a good butcher.
52:02
So like, it's just a part of our ethos.
52:04
Some people used to say to me like, oh, your kid's going to grow up in BV again.
52:08
It's like probably not.
52:09
Like you wouldn't look at a family of musicians and say, oh, your child's going to hate music
52:13
when they grow up.
52:14
It's just like, that's our family's culture.
52:16
And like, our kid's going to experiment, try things, be out in the world, be free, have
52:19
them at their own money.
52:20
Yes, they are.
52:21
And I'm just going to have to accept and trust and be proud of what, you know, all the
52:27
effort that I put in and check back with me in 10 years.
52:29
I'll tell you.
52:30
I love it.
52:31
Well, and then you should be proud.
52:33
You're not only are you modeling what's possible, but you're helping other people.
52:39
And so thank you for all the work you're doing.
52:42
It's been truly a pleasure talking with you.
52:44
So fun.
52:45
Thank you so much.
52:46
Yeah.
52:47
Well, thank you for joining us and thank you all for joining us on everyday ancestral.
52:51
Tell your friends, get the word out.
52:53
This is important stuff.
52:54
We got to spread the word about how food affects our health.
52:57
It's one of the most important messages I believe we can do.
53:01
We're all experiencing health issues, but we're not realizing that we have the power
53:06
to change them without going to other people, without going to doctors, without taking pharmaceuticals
53:11
that you can change them by just be more mindful of what you put in your body.
53:15
So thank you, Kate, for spreading that message.
53:18
And thank you all for joining us on this journey.
53:21
Stay curious.
53:23
Thank you so much for joining me on everyday ancestral.
53:27
If you enjoyed this episode, hit subscribe so you don't miss the next one.
53:32
You could find the show notes, links and resources mentioned at eatpluck.com.
53:37
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53:40
And hey, if you know someone who'd get something out of this, share it with them too.
53:48
Stay curious, live well, and keep it ancestral.