Latest / Cyber Go-To-Market Talk: The Cybersecurity Podcast About Cyber Sales, Marketing & Revenue Growth / Why the Rep, Not the Product, Wins Cyber Sales; Fred Descloux @ Nu Skin

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Why the Rep, Not the Product, Wins Cyber Sales; Fred Descloux @ Nu Skin · Cyber Go-To-Market Talk: The Cybersecurity Podcast About Cyber Sales, Marketing & Revenue Growth

• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: So if you really think about it, it's a little weird how we're taught to sell the products that we sell at a vendor.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know, your discovery questions were probably written by a seller or given to you by your boss.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: The objection handling document or bank was probably written by product management or product marketing.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: The deck you used was probably from marketing or maybe even from the founder.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: And everything that your company has taught you about why the product that you're selling is relevant to cybersecurity leaders was written by them.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: A little bit weird, right?
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: Fred Decleux, who's joining us today, is a security buyer.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: And he's unique because he's been the seller, he's worked on the sales side, he's been the implementer, the operator, and the advisor working for one of the big four.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: And now he's leading security at New Skin.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: He's the one that's talking to sellers.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: He's the one that's taking the vendor meetings.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: And today he's talking to us.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: And we cover a lot of grind in this episode, but we talk about things like how important trust is and what a seller recently claimed about Fred's boss that killed all trust in a sentence.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: Another thing we talk about is why he'd send a more junior rep to have five meetings at an event rather than send them to have 20 or 30 meetings at an event.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: And we talk about the question he asked vendors on purpose and the answer that gets you kicked out and nothing at all from that interaction.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: And we talk about a whole bunch more.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: Here's Fred.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Fred, welcome to the podcast.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having me, Andrew.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really looking forward to this episode.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we're going to cover a couple of important topics, all centered around the idea that you sit on the other side of the table than many of the listeners that will be on this call, on this uh podcast, listening to this podcast, the audience that we have.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: So you're going to give us a perspective that we probably guess at, but we don't really know too much about.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: So it's going to be interesting as we get into this and get your opinions and your ideas about uh what you experience over there.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: However, Fred, before we get into that, we have an important thing to take on here.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: We are going to spin the cyber go-to-market talk podcast wheel.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what to call it wheel of fun or wheel of topics.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: I have to give it a more punchy name than that.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: We're going to spin the wheel.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's going to come up with one of these five topics.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: For those that are watching on YouTube, you'll see them.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: For those audio only, the five very quickly are overrated or underrated.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: The cyber donut hot seat, it's personal, visionary or smoking crack, or differentiation teardown.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: Easy for me to say.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: And we'll see what comes up and then tackle those questions with Fred towards the end of the podcast.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: You ready to go?
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'm ready.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: All right, here we go.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: All right, we got overrated or underrated.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: So in this one, what what I'll do later on, Fred, just so you know, is I will read the couple three things, and you have to tell me whether you think each of those is underrated or overrated.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: And we'll dig into it if I think that your answers are kind of interesting and maybe not what quite what I was expecting.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: So let's put that to one side for now and we'll re revisit that later on in the episode.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: So let's let's kick it off like this.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: I think that there's a big change going on right now, something that we talk about on the go-to-market side, about how we're selling, especially in the age of AI.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, many go-to-market teams are at least dabbling, but they're various stages, let's say, of adoption and success and things like that.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the things we talk about is, you know, you got to do your research before you go and talk to your prospects.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'm interested in your site though, because you get to use AI on your side of the table as well.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: Do you research the people use to use ChatGPT or Claude or whatever to say, okay, I'm meeting with this company, this dude in an hour?
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know, let's find out what we can about it.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: Is that something that you do?
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: And how does that work out for you?
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_02: Always.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_02: Always.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_02: I stalk them now.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_02: I'm talking.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_02: But but no, I I I always try to do my my homework because I like to I like to come prepared to uh to conversations, even if it's a casual conversation with a either a prospect or potentially uh potentially a future vendor, always coming prepared.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I think you you mentioned earlier that I'm I'm indeed sitting on the on the buyer side of the table, but I also used to sit on other other sides of the of the table during my during my career so far.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_02: I did, I was on the on the seller side, I've been on the implementer side, on the operator side, on the advisor side, and I'm on the buyer side.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_02: I wish I had AI from when I was on the seller side, but I did not.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_02: To your question, absolutely always look for information, even if it's on different levels.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_02: One, of course, you want to understand the company you uh you you you that the the person you're meeting with is representing.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_02: You want to understand the product, you want to try to have a first impression on I want to have a first impression on whether or not this product could fit, how much it could fit my need.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_02: We know it's never going to be 100%, and that's fine, but how much are we talking about?
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I like to to to to do some light research, of course, on the person because I like to connect with the with the folks.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_02: Like to uh LinkedIn is uh is a gold mine for that.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_02: So you just scroll down to uh to uh like centers of interest or like personalities that they're they're following, and you're like, okay, great, we we like the same person.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_02: So it's always good to have some uh a good impression on the vibe that the conversation is uh is going to have.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I think I think AI is helping a lot when it comes to of course gathering this information and and having a conversation then with your the the person, the vendor that you're going to talk with, and have a conversation that is going to be symmetric as much as possible, right?
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_02: So they did their research, hopefully.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_02: I hope they did their homework, but I did too.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_02: And so we can be one, we can be more efficient because we can go straight to the point sometimes.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_02: We can we can have a conversation that is more personalized because we know a few things from uh from each other as as as people, and and and and yeah, and and that's that's that's the beauty of uh of AI, I think.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: So what I've seen happen is, you know, on the buy side, people will show up more prepared, more detail, more info about the company, the product, things like that.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: The seller does a bunch of research, hopefully, on the same sort of thing, right?
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: But then they'll come in and they'll basically kick the call off the same way and ask the same discovery questions that they've always asked.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: Does that feel okay to you, or does it feel weird that they're still asking some of these basic questions?
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it it depends the it depends the how well they did their homework before.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_02: If someone did their homework really well and they know that, for example, someone else in their uh in their organization spoke with someone in mind, or if they did really well their their their investigation on the on the on the industry that we are operating in and they have some valuable insight, please bring it to the to the conversation.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_02: Please absolutely.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I would definitely not feel uh creeped out if uh if someone is extremely uh detailed because they did some great due diligence.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_02: On the other side, so absolutely not weird.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_02: Quite the opposite.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_02: Straight to the point.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_02: If we can cut to the chase as much as we can, I'm all for it.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_02: I don't like small talk, so just just just let's go straight to the point.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_02: On the other side of the coin, if you flip the coin though, if you don't come prepared to the to the to the meeting, that's fine, but don't fake it.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_02: Don't try to fake it because it's going to be it's going to be so obvious at some point.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_02: And so be honest, be direct.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, hey, just Fred, I didn't take the time.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_02: We've been back-to-back meetings.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's been crazy this week, we didn't get the take the time to do some research.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm going to ask you a very uh very basic question.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_02: That's fine too.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_02: But I like you know, honesty, consistency, this kind of this kind of things.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's that's a good way to build trust, I think, with uh with the with the buyer too, right?
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_02: Being being honest, being direct and and being vulnerable sometimes.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_02: How often do you try and fake it?
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_02: Too often.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm smiling.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_02: I'm smiling, I'm even laughing in inside because uh I had a great example two days ago.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_02: I was at uh at a security summit in Atlanta.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_02: Great place to be.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_02: I love going to this uh to this type of uh of spaces, of environment of setups because uh it's the perfect opportunity to meet with a ton of vendors and a ton of peers as well.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, you have this psychological group effect where you can you can share all your problems and you realize that you're not alone on on earth and that's fine.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_02: And then you meet with uh with a with a bunch of vendors.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes it's interesting, sometimes it's just out of curiosity, but that always gives you a good insight on on what where the market is going and and and how it can help you from a on the inside, from a process perspective, sometimes you're like, oh wow, wait a second, I've seen these three vendors offering this.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_02: Well, maybe that's a direction the industry is taking.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_02: So good to take a step back.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_02: So besides this context, I'm going to this not a round table, but this one-on-conversation with uh with a vendor that are that are organized uh and and the guy is is is coming to me and saying, Hey Fred, oh yeah, you know what?
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_02: You work for us.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_02: So I work for a company called New Skin, I'm in the wellness and and beauty, uh beauty space.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so Fred, uh I I spoke with uh with uh with your um with someone in your in the security space.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I think it's it's your boss actually.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: Say, oh, you you you talked with Jack.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: He said, Yeah, yeah, Jack, exactly.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_02: Andrew, my boss's name is Vince.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_02: I I don't know any Jack.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_02: So no, no, don't fake it.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_02: And honestly, I I I took it on the on the you know, as a as a joke at the beginning.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I was not trying to trap the guy.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_02: It was very nice and and we actually had a good conversation, but it was, I mean, the trust, there is no trust.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_02: It was like literally for me, just uh just just a conversation.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_02: He he he lost before before even starting the game.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_02: Don't fake it.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_02: That's fine.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_02: If you never spoke to anyone, or if you don't remember the name, I mean I'm very bad at remembering people's names.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_02: Just be honest, be direct, don't fake it.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that that sounds like a well, I can imagine it comes from a standpoint of they probably don't have the confidence to be able to say, look, Fred, I honestly I this is a last-minute thing.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: I just brought, you know, whatever it might be, right?
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: They feel like they look more silly and they try to try to fake it a little bit, or they try to push the word, kind of blag their way through it.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: And that doesn't seem like a very authentic way or trustworthy way to conduct yourself.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and and I get it, right?
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_02: I think uh, you know, again, uh, having spent some time to a certain extent on the on the seller side, you want to display confidence, you want to to show that you know yourself, you want to, and and you know, fake it until you make it is is is 100% true in many aspects of the of the workplace on the on the sales side as well, of course.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_02: I I understand, but I think at the end of the day, it's probably a it's probably a gamble.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_02: You want to try to to play the the short term.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_02: I I think when you when you when you sell, you want to try to play the long term as well, you want to build trust.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I think, well, and maybe that's a very personal take, but being vulnerable in a any type of relationship is helping to build uh to build trust, right?
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, whether it's work relationship or I don't know, friends, friendship, romantic relationship, whatever.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_02: Being vulnerable is being being honest, being an you know, your your whole person, right?
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: So you're being a human when you're like that, right?
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you do, exactly.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: Every human has fears and frustrations, hopes and dreams, you know, the whole thing, right?
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: Let me go back to let's take the your the your guy at the summit that you you try to fake a little bit.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: What if he went to the other extreme?
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: What if what if he'd walked up to you and he'd start the conversation with the most amazing research you've ever heard in your life, Fred?
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: He just said, Look, here's what I've here's my ideas I've had, here's what I've learned.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: I thought it would be valuable for the conversations, just to put them out there.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: What could he tell you that would you go, wow, this guy has got his stuff together?
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_02: So I think understanding the business.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_02: So I work in the security and privacy space, right?
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_02: Which you could think is very technical.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_02: So you don't need necessarily to know the business to sell a you know a security, uh, security solution or or privacy solution.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_02: Well, pretty much the opposite.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_02: So showing that you've done some research research on the uh on the industry, and newskin happens to work on a very uh specific industry.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_02: We we don't sell so much in retail.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_02: We sell we are multi-level marketing companies.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_02: So our sales force is very specific to this uh to this type of uh to this industry.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_02: And of course, business model, operating model that is that is different means there's going to be different different variations or different in the way that we approach security or we approach privacy.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_02: So only by showing that you do you've done some research, I think the number one thing is doing some research on the business side, on the business, on the industry that the your your uh the person that you're meeting with is is operating.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_02: And also because, of course, personally, because we work with this very specific operating model, understanding it, and again, AI is amazing at this, right?
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, explain to me how a maintainable marketing company works.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_02: You got the answer in five minutes and you're and you and you're in you should the edit.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: And then explain to me what what might be the unique challenges for someone who runs privacy, GRC, and security, a company like that, right?
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly, exactly.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_02: So you have the the information is at your fingertips, right?
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's it's literally a question of going online and trying to understand this.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_02: So I think the number one thing that would impress me is coming as someone would be someone who would be coming to me and saying, Hey, I know you work in the in at new skin, I understand, but also you know, be confident, but be conservative.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I understand that.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_02: Don't say you do this.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, hold on a second.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_02: I understand that you're in the MLM space, this is how you is that right?
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_02: Is that okay?
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you do some cues sometimes from time to time, you you get the person to to connect and be like, yes, yes, yes, and that builds confidence for you as well, because you know as a as a you know as a vendor that you're on the right track, or you get corrected and then you can be agile and and of course correct your uh your approach.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_02: But coming like this with uh an understanding of the of the business, even more than an understanding of the, to your point, the privacy and security implications in this in the specific business, that goes very far.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_02: I can't expect anyone outside of an organization to know what type of system I'm using on for security, for privacy.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, this information is not should not be public, it's not public, I hope.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_02: And and uh and I I'm not going to uh to and they should then come with questions.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, what's your challenges?
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_02: What's your what's the system that you're using today?
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I know them.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_02: So I think this this goes a long way.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_02: This shows that there's that it displays seriousness in the approach.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_02: It shows that the person really wants to uh to uh to to talk to you, to sell to you, because that's the that's the purpose, and they come prepared, they do their they do their homework.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's interesting.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: The the way that we as sellers sometimes can make educated guesses, what you use for products is in your job descriptions.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because you'll say, I want an I don't know, a sysadmin for with knowledge off, and it'll list that vendor names, part name, stuff like that.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: So, okay, well, they probably have that already, right?
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: So anyway, it's just if you ever wonder why how our salesperson might know that, it's because they've got some sort of insight into your job descriptions on the on the website.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: But you said something that was really important there.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I find that sellers often do this, and I call it lecturing, right?
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: They they they lecture at you.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: You need to, you have to.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: This is happening, this is happening, this is happening, right?
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I I don't know of a security leader who thinks it's awesome to be lectured by a salesperson, right?
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: So tone matters, right?
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: To your point, tone matters.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: I we've observed some things.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: I'd like to share them with you, get your input, see if you're seeing the same things as we've seen in other places.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: I'd be really interested to you know about my opinion I've had about something.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: That's to me, that's a much more inclusive and thoughtful way to engage rather than say, this is happening, you need to do these things, right?
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: These three things.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, a thousand percent.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's, I mean, if you look at the the the psychological aspects of a conversation like this, right?
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_02: There's a as a as a seller, you want to you want to convince, you want to engage, you want to connect, but you're you're coming from a place where the buyer maybe does not want so much to to talk with you in the first place.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_02: So you're trying to you're trying to to get to this equal level, at least put yourself in uh at the at the same level.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes you're going to um you're going to overplay, you're going to uh I've I've spent a decent amount of time with in the consulting uh industry with uh with Ernst and Young.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_02: And so Ernst and Young is is very good at at telling other other companies what to do.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_02: This type of talk track, of sales talk track, I've seen them, I've been sick of them too, very quickly.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_02: But at the end of the day, the the relationship that I value with a sales representative or any any type of vendor that I'm going to end up engaging with is when you don't feel like you're talking to a salesperson.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_02: When you have this kind of peer-to-peer conversation where the person is not trying to pretend they know better than you, they're not they're not lacking confidence either.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_02: It's subtle, but it's just a human conversation.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_02: And I think I imagine that sales, sales teams will likely try to, in some organization at least, will likely try to push their their guys to uh uh and by being pushy is going to generate a behavior that is not the one that you use when you want to build long-term, sorry, long-term relationships with uh with vendors.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I think, I mean, long-term, I mean, we we all change jobs, we all change companies.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_02: We will cross path cross paths again.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_02: So if you don't make a good impression, uh it's going to last.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_02: If you make a good impression, this is also going to last, and that can go far.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, uh I have relationships with with some guys that I mean, at this point of not realizing that you talked with a salesperson, that will go far.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I know I'm not doing business with them right now because we changed, for example, our privacy operation system a few years ago.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_02: This guy, Marco, if you watch this, will work again together later.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_02: I know this.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_02: This will happen wherever, wherever he worked, wherever I work in the future, just because he was always making me feel that we were having a peer-to-peer conversation.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_02: He was extremely responsive.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_02: He said, I don't know when I don't know.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_02: He he is he was vulnerable.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_02: He was pulling the right person when he needed the right person to answer uh to answer a question.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_02: You know, but saying I don't know, uh, there's this uh Greek uh prepared this, I should have prepared before coming to this, but this Greek uh thinker that was saying, All I know is that I don't know, is it Socrates?
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know, I can't remember exactly, but I I think showing that you don't know, it's extremely, it's extremely helpful at building trust with whoever you're working with.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_02: Again, vulnerability.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: If if I'm a 28-year-old on the earlier stages of my career, I might not have the confidence or the experiences.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it might feel like that, right?
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: To play the long game like that or try and build credibility about what I know or what I've learned along the way.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: So how would you any any tips for that person, like so that they they actually are useful and valuable and someone you want to interact with, but they don't get too far what I would call over their skis, you know, trying to claim too much, be too much, say they do too much, things like that.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_02: I'm willing to repeat something I said earlier, but do your homework, I think, before.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_02: And that means is that means you may in, I don't know, in a in a summit or in your in the way you reach out to your to your prospects, you may not speak to as many people as you as you'd like to, or as many people as your as your your objective is to uh to to speak to, but maybe you're going to spend more time preparing instead of speaking to 20 folks during the day, you're going to speak to five people during the day.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: But these five meetings that you have, you will have had time to prepare them and come to these meetings with understanding of what the industry is.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_02: I think being curious is absolutely a uh it's not a skill that I mean, it's a skill that you can that you can work on.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_02: There's still some type of soft skills.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_02: sometimes self-skill are not easy to uh to make uh to to to to make progress on but i think curiosity is is the number one quality that you that you want to have as a young salesperson and and and yes i mean doing doing your research before going to the to the meeting understanding asking around i mean to your to your uh if you have uh if you're lucky enough to have a team of course trying to to gather some some intel on the industry or the or the um or the the what the what what the what the what direction the the the industry is taking what direction the company is taking i mean if you're if you're coming i mean there for example new skin again the company i'm working for days on a month for my day job we have revenue that is declining because we are trying we're trying to change our our our operating model to uh to come back to uh to come back to a um to an increase of of revenue well if you that's public information you know I'm not going to buy a one million dollar solution tomorrow so if you if you do this research on the economics of the organization on the on the industry that the that your uh that your prospect is uh is is working in and display this curiosity and and it's fine to come as uh I'm I was in the security summit I was at this week there was there were a lot of of young folks young folks and and because myself I was coming there and saying well I'm not here to buy something like right now I don't have necessarily the budget before before likely next year I think they were matching me with the with the young guys to just to have them you know grow and and get some get some reps and and get some uh yeah some repetition on on the on the job a lot of them were doing uh were doing a good job at actually being vulnerable and saying well hey I'm I've been here for for one year but what I understand is blah blah blah and then I connect with these guys I I connect because again you you showed curiosity you showed vulnerability and you did your homework I think that's kind of this the traffic of things that you that you want to have as a younger a young stage drive I like that a lot because I don't need to have 15 years experience to build a bit of curiosity in my in my habits right and how I think about things I don't need to have 15 years experience about to know here's some interesting questions to ask or ways to you know dig into some key parts of a conversation, right?
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't need 15 years of experience to to research to figure it out, especially these days, right?
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: It should be relatively easy.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a way for people who are less experienced to actually be maybe even more valuable than someone who's been doing it for 15 years because they've done this work to be ready for these conversations.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: I really love that as an approach.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely I think experience is one thing but experience is is probably a combination of information of data and and and how to interpret this data and make it make sense but the data to your point you have access to the data super easy and and I'm I'm I'm in this context of I can't buy anything this year I know it but I both I was working for for a startup uh a few uh like last year we were uh we were at at some point we were ready to uh to um to uh to to start with vendors very quickly we had a very specific need i went to this to this conversation with uh with a vendor we wanted some uh synthetic data we are like we had a product that we're trying to launch in the healthcare space and we were like okay now we need to test it well you're not testing it with actual patient data because that's that would be very bad uh so you want a you you you want synthetic data and so we reached out to a few or two and we literally sent 16 emails and see who is going to respond respond respond the first and I remember staying with this guy and uh they came there or two actually a guy and a lady and and they came they came prepared super quickly and we signed with them so very quickly too because we were we were extremely in a rush so when you come prepared you shorten the life the the the sales cycle as well so it's it's a win-win on in every on every area it's a win win it's a win because you connect with with your with your the person you're meeting with you engage better and if that works well it's extremely efficient like sales cycle because I don't you skip hours of me explaining to you what exactly I need what type of format of data I need to say well yeah we know we you need the need EDI format blah blah blah credit okay good let's let's do it yeah have you ever been in a situation where you've ended up working with a company even though they might have been more expensive than other ones but because you believed in the experience they were they were going to give you or the partnership you were going to create over time.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yes I think I think that's where the the the product is one thing but the the vibe you get with the with the team that you uh that you interact with is what makes the difference the product i I mean of course if I if I have a conversation with a with a vendor and uh and it becomes serious that means I know for a fact the you you you cross the threshold I don't know 60 or 80% threshold of of how your how your product is uh is is fitting my need I also know that now with with all the vibe coding solution that uh that we have available this it I don't care if your if your system is not is not matching my process exactly if you if you match a 60% and I know I can build the 40% myself with an automation or something on the side that's perfect.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_02: I like putting some person in a in a in a con in a in a conversation in an exchange I like building a connection I'm I'm an introvert but I I I I prefer having few very very distinctive conversations and and and very uh I would say deep deep exchanges rather than collect collecting a bunch of uh of uh of you know business cards we don't have business cards anymore now but a bunch of business cards from from from 50 folks so I will value and I think a lot of buyers uh do value the the connection with the with the salesperson and and it's not that product doesn't matter product matters 100% but at some point maybe three or four products are going are going to matter how do you differentiate yourself product is not going to be the differentiator the quality of the interaction with the salesperson is going to I believe at least for me and for a lot of people that I've that I've seen in the in the industry make the make the difference.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: I've seen that from some of my clients right they you know you think about what's happening with with AI is it's raising the it's raising the tide right it's it's definitely helping a whole bunch of sellers be more effective in their jobs behind the scenes maybe in front of prospects maybe but it's being more effective.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: When that happens then you how do you stand out?
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: How do you as a seller keep advancing yourself to be someone that Fred or anyone else wants to do business with and it's gonna probably a lot of it's gonna come down to the human factor right are you someone that I can trust?
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: Are you someone that gets the right resources from the company to come and work with me to deliver on your promise you know all these types of things going to build up I feel like that is going to be a very important factor going forward.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_02: I believe so I I yeah I agree 100% with you I also believe that I mean they they they are they are mediocre actors on each side of the table right and I think buyers that don't know what they want to buy to right so it's it's it feels like what I all I'm saying is is vendor should do this vendors should do that sales person should act like this not like that but look on the other side of the table a lot of persons have no idea what they're what they're doing either what they're buying they don't know why they're buying sometimes they're buying just to save their position i've i've seen a project i've i've um i've taken over project at some point in in in a previous uh in a previous experience that were and that absolutely had drifted from the contract just because the buyer which was us had no idea what we wanted actually that's we we we purchased a solution thinking that we wanted to do something and then the the the the contract was loose the project was poorly managed it drifted because any any everyone was trying to figure out their way that was a that was a total failure I ended up being in a in a in a meeting at the end that was actually a fight between the company I was working for and the vendor and there were you know when you when you start putting the contract during a during a a meeting like this it's never it's never a good sign and then and then I was like I was with my boss I was like I have to be I have to be loyal to my boss right he's the one he's the one paying the send sending the wearing sending the money every every two weeks so I got I gotta be uh I gotta be loyal but I was like no this it's against my values because we just did a poor job and and that's another that's another aspect as well that you know uh that that I'm going from in many different directions right andrew so feel free to uh to stop me at some point but I I think another aspect of what makes an amazing relationship between uh between a between a buyer and a seller is when the seller can tell you hey Fred you you're wrong here and be brutally honest with me and say no no you you you you're wrong about this or your need is absolutely it's not going to work no one knows knows how to do this or are you sure about this of course it takes you don't do this at the very beginning of the relationship right but as soon as you installed a good relationship I value someone who's going to challenge me and because we're of course uh we're not we're not always the we're not always the right right sometimes we're trying to find our way to uh through uh through everything so can't remember what your question was in the first place but yeah that that's that I just thought about a new uh a new aspect of what I think makes uh makes a relationship between a buyer and a seller uh if you read durable you know yeah the way I was directing the the conversation where I was going to get to was around this idea of trust right that human interaction you know human to human still engaging with each other building that up that that knowledge the familiarity the rapport things like that but to me the the ultimate is when you really trust each other right there's trust there off the top of your head I mean what what what do you think builds trust what what can a seller do think about about how they interact that says okay these are trust building things that they should be thinking about in all their engagements I think as a as a buyer you always accept to sit at the table with a seller when you have a problem and you want to solve this problem and if you're talking with the vendor that means you know that you're not going to you know build versus buy that you're not going to build so you're ready to buy but if I'm ready to buy that means in my mind I already know the problem I have a problem statement I make the decision to go to someone else who help me.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_02: So I need help.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_02: So I think as a seller you need to find a way to get to the the root of this problem.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_02: What is the problem?
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's going to be I'm going to trust someone who tries to help me identify what my either help me identify my problem if I don't know what my problem is that happens or or is going to get me to understand what what my what my problem is and then bring a solution that is reasonable that is not magical so I know there's no there's no magic wand anywhere you're you're going to help me you're going to and but I'm going to trust them when they get it and when and then then of course we're going to sign uh if we if if we if we end up signing a contract and start working the solution then please don't disappear i i want to keep this and oh it's not I know you you want to of course you're as once you once the deal is signed that's that's your your job is done but please don't disappear completely because again you never know what happens five or ten years from now but but I think from a from a from a trust standpoint if you make this extra effort that is maybe not in the job description of the of the of the sales uh of the salesperson that's what is going to to um to build this trusted relationship and then also giving me you know as I said earlier right I like to go to to security summit or or any type of conferences and meet with vendors because I like to know what's going on out there.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_02: And so giving me I'm not asking for the the white paper every uh every three weeks in my mailbox but telling me hey Fred by the way I I I I thought about this I saw this article it reminded me of some conversation we had you think that makes sense how does it resonate like you know bounce ideas and and yeah continue to nurture this this relationship and then little by little if I of course if if we like each other if there is this this the feeling that you're just not you're not trying to just sell something but you're trying to find a solution and and I think that's what makes a buyer at the end of the day or a buyer like me at least sign is is is be like okay this guy or this or this girl they were trying to help me solve my problem and that makes the solution that they're bringing makes sense.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_02: We've discussed along the way they brought different perspectives to the game they had they maybe they helped me course correct a little bit my uh my my my thinking they they shed a different light on a on the problem and told me how some of their customers their customers are solving this problem too because we we we we are heads down in our our environment in our context we don't have time sometimes or don't have the capacity to to see what's going on on other end so that's sometimes that's what I do and that's the question I was asked a lot before when I was in the consulting space and that's what I do now as well with the with vendors is is asking them on purpose.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_02: Just give me I give me examples of your other customers how do they solve this what do they do what do you see on the market?
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_02: The quality and the detail of the response matters a lot there because if you tell me oh yeah you know most everyone has the same problem I know thank you that's exactly why I'm asking the question give me I don't need the names I don't need but hey there is this very very specific company that has a blue logo I can't tell you the name but and this is how they they they dealt with this with this issue.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_02: This this it's a it's a collection of little things that gets trust at the end and and trust is I think yeah earned it's it's not you know it's it's earned it's a hard labor between uh between two and it's it's a two way it's a two-way conversation too so uh so yeah I think that's that's that's how I think about it.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_00: If I was to try and summarize that and you know bring it up to one thing it would seem to me that a big part of it is the mindset that the seller brings to the discussions, the engagement, the interactions that you have.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_00: If their mindset is take, take, deal, deal, close quarter end, year end, things like that, right?
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_00: And that's all they think about, they they want it'll be harder for them to be in the mode of you know let's build long term let's give value give ideas even though it's not a deal anytime soon, let's do this in a certain way, right?
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: If if I'm either myself or my company, I'm kind of forced into a take-take mindset, I'm not going to be doing off that stuff, right?
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'll probably just move on, which seems a very short-term way of thinking about things.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_02: I think you said you said take take that there's this this book that I read one day.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_02: I think Adam Grant wrote it you know this um uh workspace uh organizations psychologist I think uh and he he talked about givers and takers and that's something that I that I that I even myself on the on the on the personal side and friendships and all that that's something that I look at very very thoroughly uh these these days is who is the giver who is the taker and uh and if you if you're a giver if you're more a person that is that is that has that naturally is going to give more than take you want to surround yourself by by people who are going to be givers too and you're going to reject people who are going to be to be to be takers.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_02: So I think there is a when you start a a a conversation and that applies of course to the buyer versus seller relationship and conversations but understanding the other person trying to have a and that maybe back to your questions uh earlier in the in the episode when you when you asked uh what makes the a young uh a young salesperson uh good there is one thing as well try to understand who you're talking with what's what's the driver what is driving what is driving the uh you know I'm talking with you and Drew okay what what's your driver what what what is going to to click for you what the type of things that that that you uh and and there's a you know you of course when you're in person that's easier than than when you're behind uh behind a camera but there's a ton of little weak signals that you can that you can that you can capture when you when you interact with someone and you know what's what's where how the person uh interacts with you understanding the person if the person is a is a giver display that you're uh that that that you're a giver as well I think that's uh that's yeah that's uh that's very i i i loved it i i i jumped on it because you you said take take and that made me think about about this at the end of the day a a a a commercial conversation is like human interaction as you as you said earlier so you want to treat it as such I think yeah so you're you're in a situation where you're building up your boutique advisory companies your drama security so you're in the mode of talking to prospects and talking to people in your in your network about things how do you approach that first conversation where you're you feel like okay I I know John at wherever I've we've interacted I I think it might be a fit how how do you kind of use your network to to to drive those conversations?
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_02: I like to find the problems I like to find solutions to the to the to the problem and there is a uh in the in the security space there is a something that is clear is that you you're not if if you're trying to sell services and I'm not talking necessarily a solution or a tool but mostly services which is what what I do at zero dramatic security I'm not going to try I want my goal to be reasonable and my goal is not going to to tell hey your company is going to be more secure after after I come in after I after we do this engagement because one something you can't commit on it's too many variables and too many and you can control only some of some of them if if any and so I'm I'm going to more focus on the on the person.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_02: I'm going to focus on okay hey you're not confident with your risks you're not confident with what's what's going on in your company because you there is too much noise and you don't you don't you don't know what matters.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_02: I'm going to help you cut through the noise I'm going to help you be confident with which risks matter and which risks you're going to tackle first.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_02: How you're going to tackle them and which ones you set either on the side or your accent and the outcome of the engagement is not wow we went from a score of security score that I would make up for 85 to 92 no I'm going to make sure that the the person that the buyer that I'm that I'm speaking with becomes more confident with what his or she is dealing with on a on a on a daily basis.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_00: Why do you pick confidence?
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know because because we are in security we someone who tells you that they know exactly what's going on and that and that they are perfectly comfortable with everything and confident okay maybe 5% of them are not liars but the immense majority of the other folks they're making that up there they're pretending don't pretend we we especially now in the security space that again with all the AI models that are that are coming into um into the space that are making uh making the the security challenges bigger and bigger and bigger pretending that you're uh that you're that you're fine and you're confident with everything um I I I don't I don't buy it so it's it's a fact that confidence is what is missing.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_02: And as a leader you want to be able as a security leader you want to be able to advise your senior leadership or your CEO if you're not comfortable confident and comfortable with what you're dealing with how can you get them confident and comfortable so I think that's that's the number one thing and and they will they will I don't know if they will call me back and and my job is not necessarily to uh sell something and then you know hopefully uh hinge uh there there there might be a sequel or something you know like like all these movies are one two three four five I'm I'm not trying to get to the next to the next uh the next engagement but this person I would have built a trusted relationship with them hopefully if I did my job well and if we were able to to boost their their the confidence and they would remember and then maybe five years from now they would thread hey I did my job and I remember we we worked well last time together notice the we right it's not like hey You did something great.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_02: No, we worked well together.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_02: I have other challenges.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_02: You mind if we jump on a call and see what's what's going on?
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_02: Let's do that.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I picked up on that.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_00: I'll just wrap this up and then we'll go back to the wheel.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_00: So one of the things I work on with my clients is we get very logical very quickly.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, when we talk about, let's take your example, right?
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_00: We talk about the problems that one of our customers had, right?
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_00: We say that John Smith, who was at Mirror Company, they could not see their AI usage in the company.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_00: And they didn't know what models were doing, what things, and all the rest of it, right?
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_00: That to me is a very logical explanation of what it was.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_00: But if you said John Smith at Mirror Company was feeling really uncomfortable with the lack of detail and what was going on, such that he was getting asked by the exec team or the board, and he wasn't confident at all he could answer these questions with much clarity.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_00: That's a very different way of saying something, which you know is essentially the same, but it probably taps more into the real emotional side of that person, of why they're really gonna probably gonna do something.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_02: Emotions, exactly.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_02: Human connection, emotions.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_02: That's that's where it matters at the end.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_00: Let's go back, Fred, to the wheel and let's see what we learn from the the wheel of something.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_00: Wheel of fun.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_00: All right, so I ended up on overrated or underrated.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_00: So let me reveal what these are.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_00: And there's gonna be three things that you're gonna tell me whether you think they're underrated or overrated.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_00: The first one: a sales rep with a CISSP qualification.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_00: Is that overrated or underrated?
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, nice.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_02: I like that you put some security into it.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's underrated.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_02: It's underrated, but that makes a difference.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_02: You want me to elaborate a bit more or just uh Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_00: No, I do, I do.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_02: That's not the first thing that uh sales rep would think about.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, let's let's go through, let's go do the CISSP.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_02: The the the uh the behavior, what is the the what it shows, it shows that they're trying to be relevant.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_02: And it's not just this uh comma CSSP that you're going to add on LinkedIn next to your name to uh to uh to show that you that you're relevant in security, it's the it's the is the learning and the very broad learning that you're going to have on the in the security space that is going to make you able to connect dots, understand if the if your um if your uh your prospect is using some some weird acronyms that have very security just because they're trying to trap you a little bit and and see and talk about EDR and XDR and all that.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_02: You're like, yeah, yeah, I know, probably I know what you mean.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_02: That's underrated, but I didn't think about it when you asked me what can a young salesperson do in the security space.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_02: That's 100% something that I could recommend.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_02: Again, not just for the five letters, but for the for the this layer of knowledge that is going to go a long way.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's funny.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't think I've ever seen a job description for any sales role, sales role, not SEs, but sales role that said even CISP preferred.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's just not something that people do.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_00: It seems like I know they're not easy to get.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_00: You don't just study for a weekend and you get it, right?
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_00: I get it's a bit of work, but if you're gonna commit to an industry, it seems like it might not be a bad idea.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_00: All right, let's go to number two.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_00: Chat GPT for account research.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_00: Overrated or underrated?
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um you need it.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_02: And underrated, I guess.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_02: You you you yeah, you you need it.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_02: I think you account research.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, you're going to you should have a lot of information in your sales force, or whatever sales system that you that you have, zoom info, whatever all the systems that you that you that you have access to as a as a as a salesperson.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_02: It's it is and it was underrated.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_02: I think more and more is going to become the the the expectation.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_02: And today you can make the difference by spending the right amount of time researching information on the industry, as we said earlier, right?
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_02: On the industry, on the company, on the on the economics of the of the company, if the stock price is taking a hit, maybe not the right moment to propose a$3 million package on your on your on your contract, but it's going to become the norm very very quickly, but you can still make the difference right now until it becomes a until it becomes the norm.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_02: So maybe underrated right now.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, number three, for the overrated or underrated, sellers being likable.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_02: Underrated because because unfortunately, unfortunately, that's I don't know, maybe uh I'm trying to think about the the my uh previous interactions.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_02: Not everyone is is uh is making themselves likable.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_02: Not everyone is making the effort to understand who they are speaking, they're speaking with, what is, you know, as we said, the drivers of the person they're they're talking to.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_02: And so under underrated, but that's what makes the difference.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_02: Again, everything that is underrated makes a difference, I guess.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you know, in a way.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_02: But no, yeah, you likeable, yes, of course, because would you trust someone that you that is that is not likable?
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_02: No, right?
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_02: You need to build trust at the end of the day.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_02: That's your that's your end game, I think, as a uh as the as the sales leader.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_02: So be likable, understand who you speak with, and and make the effort to to give, to give as much as you as much as you can rather than just take the signature and disappear after sending the contract.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I feel like I've known some sellers over the years that are very high performers that are not all that likable, but they're they have to really make up for it in other places, right?
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_00: So it's you know, by being the opposite of that, you're introducing friction into your chance of success, in my opinion.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_00: And you better be very good at a whole bunch of other things to make up for it.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Fred, listen, I've really enjoyed having you on the podcast.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_00: They uh covered some interesting ground for the audience out there.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh anything you want to finish off with before we say goodbye?
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_02: Uh no, thank you, Andrew, for the uh for the opportunity.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_02: I'd like to uh I'd like to uh to bring a something a bit something a bit different in the in the conversations that we had.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_02: I'm glad that you that we you were open to uh to uh to having uh at least a current buyer uh on your podcast.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you for the opportunity.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_02: I appreciate it.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, Red.