Latest / The Knife: A True Crime Podcast / Off Record: Missing Husband

Transcript

Off Record: Missing Husband · The Knife: A True Crime Podcast

0:00
Speaker 1: Hey, it's Payshett. Wanted to let you know that the
0:02
Speaker 1: Exactly Right Store is having an end-of-summer sale. From September
0:06
Speaker 1: 3rd through September 7th, use code SUMMERSALE to save up
0:10
Speaker 1: to 30% off storewide, including merch from The Knife. Spend
0:15
Speaker 1: $ 50 and save 20%, $ 75 and save 25%, or $ 100
0:16
Speaker 1: and save 30%. Head to exactlyrightstore.com to shop. Some exclusions apply.
0:27
Speaker 2: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.
0:47
Speaker 2: Welcome to The Knife Off Record. I'm Hannah Smith.
0:50
Speaker 1: I'm Pasha Eaton. And Hannah, today I have a story
0:54
Speaker 1: for you that came from actually a call I was making,
0:59
Speaker 1: like so many of these do, for a different episode.
1:02
Speaker 1: And I got in touch with a detective who had
1:04
Speaker 1: been working on the case I'm going to talk about.
1:06
Speaker 1: And he couldn't speak to me about it because everything
1:09
Speaker 1: was still pending. And it's no longer pending. I had
1:13
Speaker 1: a call with him and I'm going to.
1:14
Speaker 2: No longer pending. Yeah.
1:16
Speaker 1: So I'm going to be able to talk about the
1:17
Speaker 1: phone call, but we weren't able to schedule an interview. Okay.
1:21
Speaker 1: I was able to put this together with body cam
1:24
Speaker 1: footage and court records.
1:25
Speaker 2: Wow.
1:26
Speaker 1: So news articles plus a call with the detective who
1:29
Speaker 1: I think played an instrumental role in the case. Wow.
1:32
Speaker 1: It's so dark, but I think that it was really
1:35
Speaker 1: great police work. And I think this case is a
1:39
Speaker 1: really good lesson in trusting your instincts if you know
1:42
Speaker 1: something is wrong.
1:43
Speaker 2: Cool.
1:44
Speaker 1: Yeah. So I'll just get right into it then. Let's
1:47
Speaker 1: do it.
1:47
Speaker 2: And quick reminder that we do post updates on our
1:50
Speaker 2: social media accounts, so feel free to follow us on
1:53
Speaker 2: Instagram and Blue Sky at The Knife Podcast.
1:56
Speaker 1: So on May 12th, 2025, a call comes in to
2:01
Speaker 1: the non-emergency line at the Otero County Sheriff's Office saying,
2:05
Speaker 1: Otero County is in southern New Mexico.
2:08
Speaker 2: Okay.
2:08
Speaker 1: So it's a very rural area. And the man calling
2:12
Speaker 1: is actually from Texas. He sounds very concerned and with
2:17
Speaker 1: a lot of urgency, but he also sounds really frustrated.
2:20
Speaker 1: I mean, he sounds like no one's been listening to him.
2:23
Speaker 1: I don't know if it was the first call he'd made,
2:25
Speaker 1: but it's pretty clear that he's been trying to reach
2:27
Speaker 1: someone and he can't reach them.
2:29
Speaker 2: And is he calling from Texas or he's a Texan
2:32
Speaker 2: who's in Texas?
2:33
Speaker 1: He's calling from Texas.
2:35
Speaker 2: Okay.
2:35
Speaker 1: And he asks the dispatcher, who can I talk to
2:39
Speaker 1: about a wellness check for someone who lives in Otero County?
2:43
Speaker 2: Okay.
2:43
Speaker 1: And the man he's interested in doing a wellness check
2:46
Speaker 1: on is Craig Thetford. And Craig is from the same
2:50
Speaker 1: town in Texas. He's from Breckenridge, Texas, but he's been
2:54
Speaker 1: living in Cloudcroft, New Mexico, with his wife, Dina.
2:58
Speaker 2: Where is Breckenridge? I've never heard of that town in Texas.
3:00
Speaker 1: I think it's in West Texas. I think it's like
3:03
Speaker 1: 90 minutes from Dallas, maybe.
3:05
Speaker 2: Okay.
3:06
Speaker 1: Maybe two hours from Dallas.
3:07
Speaker 2: Gotcha.
3:08
Speaker 1: So this man is really concerned because... Craig has not
3:12
Speaker 1: been reachable to him for two months. He had been
3:16
Speaker 1: able to exchange some text messages with him, but that
3:19
Speaker 1: was it. And Craig was usually someone who was really
3:22
Speaker 1: easy to get on the phone. Now, this call that
3:24
Speaker 1: he's making for a wellness check is in mid-May 2025.
3:28
Speaker 1: And he hasn't had a text from Craig in two months.
3:31
Speaker 1: He's really concerned. And adding to his concern, really compounding
3:36
Speaker 1: his sort of frustration in my interpretation of his call,
3:41
Speaker 1: is that he also now can't reach Dina, Craig's wife.
3:45
Speaker 1: So he's really concerned. And the dispatcher's like, OK, we'll
3:48
Speaker 1: send someone out to the house. And he's happy with that.
3:51
Speaker 1: They get off the phone. Now, this 911 caller is
3:54
Speaker 1: actually Craig's longtime friend and business partner. So he knows
3:57
Speaker 1: him really well.
3:59
Speaker 2: Are they still business partners at the time or like retired?
4:03
Speaker 1: Actually, Craig had retired. He had a roofing business and
4:06
Speaker 1: it was really successful. The roofing business was in Texas,
4:09
Speaker 1: where he's from. And he just decided to retire in
4:12
Speaker 1: New Mexico. They just found a place they really loved
4:14
Speaker 1: up in Cloudcroft. It's like a very rural place. tight-knit community,
4:18
Speaker 1: a mountain town. Sounds nice. Yeah. And they had been
4:22
Speaker 1: loving life up there. They lived in a three-story home.
4:24
Speaker 1: They had a lot of recreational vehicles, did a lot
4:27
Speaker 1: of outdoorsy fun trips together. By all accounts, his life
4:31
Speaker 1: was going really well. Like he was really reaping the
4:33
Speaker 1: benefits of a lot of hard work in his life. Okay. Yeah.
4:37
Speaker 1: So Craig and Dina had both been married before. They
4:40
Speaker 1: both had children from earlier relationships and they met over
4:44
Speaker 1: 10 years ago. They seem to really enjoy a lot
4:47
Speaker 1: of the same things, like being outdoors and hiking and fishing,
4:51
Speaker 1: all of those kinds of activities, maybe motorcycles. I saw
4:54
Speaker 1: some pictures of them with helmets on. I don't know
4:55
Speaker 1: if it was like ATVs or motorcycles, but that was
4:58
Speaker 1: like the vibe of the pictures on their Facebook page.
5:01
Speaker 1: And they look really happy. And so everyone's really confused. Like,
5:05
Speaker 1: why haven't we heard from Craig? Why haven't we heard
5:07
Speaker 1: from Dina? They're living in this little town by themselves.
5:10
Speaker 1: They're both from Texas. She's from Seymour or her family
5:13
Speaker 1: lives there.
5:14
Speaker 2: And I'm guessing their kids don't live in that same area.
5:17
Speaker 1: It's just them. It's just this like post-retirement chapter that
5:21
Speaker 1: they've started.
5:21
Speaker 2: It sounds like they're like young and healthy for retirees,
5:25
Speaker 2: still active, living their lives. There was no medical reason
5:28
Speaker 2: why people should be concerned about them. Yeah. That we
5:31
Speaker 2: know of. Exactly.
5:33
Speaker 1: And Cloudcroft, like I mentioned, is a small town. And
5:36
Speaker 1: so people do notice when you're coming and going or
5:38
Speaker 1: if you're not there. A lot of people live there
5:40
Speaker 1: year round, even though it's, you know, maybe there's not
5:43
Speaker 1: like this booming economy. So you could have a second
5:45
Speaker 1: home there. But they're quick to notice police presence. And
5:50
Speaker 1: so on the evening of May 12th, 2025, following this
5:51
Speaker 1: 911 call, Two officers arrived at the mountainside home belonging
5:58
Speaker 1: to Craig Thetford and his wife, Dina. And watching the
6:01
Speaker 1: body cam footage, it's late in the evening. I think
6:03
Speaker 1: it's around 8 p.m. The sun is like mostly going down,
6:07
Speaker 1: but it's the summertime. And the police get out of
6:11
Speaker 1: the car. They immediately start announcing themselves sheriff's office sheriff's
6:15
Speaker 1: office no response most of the bottom level is the
6:19
Speaker 1: garage area and then there's like a back part that
6:22
Speaker 1: they'll go into later but their vehicles look like they're
6:25
Speaker 1: in there there's some lights on at the house They
6:27
Speaker 1: look inside the window and see some boxes. So they're
6:30
Speaker 1: thinking maybe they went on a trip or maybe they're
6:32
Speaker 1: packing to move again. But nothing concerning. It's not like
6:37
Speaker 1: they're seeing a bunch of like blood on the wall,
6:39
Speaker 1: lamps knocked over. And these are adults like they can
6:42
Speaker 1: come and go as they please. So. They knock on
6:45
Speaker 1: the door. There's no answer. And it's rural, but you
6:49
Speaker 1: can still like walk to your neighbor's house. So that's
6:52
Speaker 1: what they do. They just decide, OK, we're going to
6:54
Speaker 1: walk to the nearest house and see if they can
6:56
Speaker 1: tell us anything. And something about Otero County is that
7:00
Speaker 1: only 10 percent of it is privately owned. So that's
7:03
Speaker 1: how small it is. The rest of the county is
7:05
Speaker 1: made up of sovereign tribal land, federal land, which is,
7:08
Speaker 1: you know, military installations and state land. So the houses
7:12
Speaker 1: aren't squished together, but you know who lives around you.
7:15
Speaker 1: And so before this officer can even get to the
7:17
Speaker 1: front door of the neighbor's house, he's walking out to
7:19
Speaker 1: greet him. And he knows why he's there. He's like,
7:23
Speaker 1: I'm really worried. He's like, I haven't seen or heard
7:26
Speaker 1: from Craig in a long time.
7:27
Speaker 2: Wow.
7:29
Speaker 1: Yeah, like, so now the officer, you can tell, is
7:32
Speaker 1: a little bit like, okay, well, tell me more. And
7:36
Speaker 1: this guy says that he is actually a volunteer firefighter
7:39
Speaker 1: for the James Canyon Volunteer Fire Department. And when he
7:43
Speaker 1: stopped hearing from Craig, it was January of 2025.
7:46
Speaker 2: And had they been in contact regularly before that?
7:49
Speaker 1: All the time. He said they were great friends. Really?
7:52
Speaker 1: They were volunteer firefighters together, that they were super passionate
7:56
Speaker 1: about doing that.
7:57
Speaker 2: And in five months, he hadn't like... Hadn't heard from him.
8:01
Speaker 2: And hadn't thought to call the police or anything? Yeah,
8:04
Speaker 2: I wondered about that. But I also wonder if.
8:06
Speaker 1: It's like sort of a, you know, like it would
8:09
Speaker 1: suck to be wrong about that. And then it's like.
8:12
Speaker 2: Then you're invasive. You're being invasive in your neighbor's life.
8:14
Speaker 1: Yeah. And because they did travel a lot, I wonder
8:17
Speaker 1: if that played into it. Like, well, they go on
8:19
Speaker 1: a lot of trips and he doesn't need to tell
8:21
Speaker 1: me where he's going. Mm-hmm. So, yeah, he said that
8:25
Speaker 1: they were in constant contact. They saw each other all
8:28
Speaker 1: the time on calls for the volunteer fire department and
8:31
Speaker 1: hung out a lot because they're neighbors and then just
8:33
Speaker 1: nothing except for a few text messages. And he's like,
8:36
Speaker 1: but he wouldn't get on the phone. So the texts
8:40
Speaker 1: kind of fizzle out anyway.
8:42
Speaker 2: Had he seen Dina?
8:43
Speaker 1: He had seen Dina a little bit, but she didn't
8:45
Speaker 1: seem like she was acting abnormally at all. So the
8:49
Speaker 1: sheriff's office is just sort of like they're taking some notes.
8:52
Speaker 1: This is all on body cam. And this neighbor says
8:55
Speaker 1: that actually Craig had been sick briefly in January and
8:58
Speaker 1: that he had been sick as well. So maybe something's
9:00
Speaker 1: going around. And that was kind of the last time
9:03
Speaker 1: they saw each other. It's like they were both sick
9:05
Speaker 1: out and then just didn't see each other again. So.
9:08
Speaker 1: Craig and Dina did live in Cloudcroft year-round, but like
9:11
Speaker 1: I said, they traveled a lot. So the officers are
9:13
Speaker 1: taking all of this with a grain of salt. They
9:15
Speaker 1: continue down the road to talk to another neighbor. And
9:20
Speaker 1: just like the last one, these people are very nervous.
9:23
Speaker 1: These neighbors are actually a little more forward with their concerns.
9:26
Speaker 1: They're like, something weird is going on over there. We
9:29
Speaker 1: don't know what. We haven't seen Craig. We haven't heard
9:32
Speaker 1: from Craig. And they also say that Dina has been
9:36
Speaker 1: at the house as recently as three weeks ago.
9:38
Speaker 2: Interesting.
9:39
Speaker 1: Interesting. Craig, they haven't seen or heard from him, at
9:42
Speaker 1: least verifiably, since January. Dina's been at the house as
9:45
Speaker 1: recently as mid-April.
9:47
Speaker 2: Did they talk with Dina?
9:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, and they said that she just, you know, would
9:50
Speaker 1: kind of come and go and wave and she's friendly.
9:53
Speaker 1: But that was that. So officers try to call Dina,
9:59
Speaker 1: get some information. and they're unable to reach her. But
10:02
Speaker 1: you can tell that the officers who are talking to
10:04
Speaker 1: the neighbors are like, OK, this is not good. It's
10:07
Speaker 1: not going somewhere good. And they finally get another call
10:12
Speaker 1: where they're able to learn a little bit more about
10:14
Speaker 1: Dina and what's going on. And it's from Craig's grandson. Now,
10:19
Speaker 1: separate from Craig's longtime business partner and friend who made
10:22
Speaker 1: that initial call, Craig's grandson calls. And he's like, my grandfather, Craig,
10:28
Speaker 1: did not call his mother on Mother's Day. And that's
10:31
Speaker 1: how we know something is wrong. And he's like, he
10:35
Speaker 1: would never, ever do that. Okay.
10:38
Speaker 2: Yeah.
10:39
Speaker 1: And so the whole family now back in Texas is like,
10:42
Speaker 1: what is going on? But they can't reach Dina. She's
10:44
Speaker 1: pretty much stopped communicating with them. Wow.
10:47
Speaker 2: Yeah.
10:48
Speaker 1: Except for Dina did go visit Craig's mother on Mother's Day.
10:53
Speaker 1: So they're like, what is happening here? Where is Craig?
10:55
Speaker 1: Because they didn't know she's going over there. They would
10:57
Speaker 1: all be like, what's going on with Craig? So weird.
11:00
Speaker 1: So Dina ends up calling the sheriff's department back and
11:04
Speaker 1: they're like, yeah, we're just, you know, people are a
11:06
Speaker 1: little worried about Craig. Do you know anything? And she's like, well,
11:09
Speaker 1: not really. We're separated. He met someone.
11:12
Speaker 2: Wow.
11:13
Speaker 1: Yeah. And she's like, you know, those boxes, he's packing
11:17
Speaker 1: up and leaving. And they're like, okay, well, where is he?
11:21
Speaker 1: And she said that he was in Mexico. And they're like, oh, well,
11:27
Speaker 1: what was he doing there? And she said he was
11:29
Speaker 1: trophy fishing and that he was out with all these other,
11:33
Speaker 1: she said youngsters, like multiple young women. Oh, okay. Yeah.
11:39
Speaker 2: He's fishing with young women. Right.
11:41
Speaker 1: You know, young women, they love to fish. They love
11:44
Speaker 1: to fish. Yeah. And so this callback from Dina is
11:47
Speaker 1: not reassuring, but, you know, what else can they say?
11:50
Speaker 1: These people are going through a divorce. So Dina agrees, like, yeah,
11:54
Speaker 1: it's weird that he hasn't been in touch, but I
11:56
Speaker 1: don't know what to tell you because I can't reach
11:57
Speaker 1: him either. So listening to this phone call, I'm like,
12:01
Speaker 1: if I'm Dina in that moment, I'm irritated. I'm like, OK,
12:06
Speaker 1: you're leaving me. You're with these other women. You're out
12:08
Speaker 1: in Mexico. But can you just put your family's worries
12:11
Speaker 1: to rest and call them? Like, what's that have to
12:14
Speaker 1: do with us?
12:14
Speaker 2: Right. Right.
12:15
Speaker 1: Because now I have this like thorn in my side
12:17
Speaker 1: of investigators showing up wondering where you are. Yeah. And
12:20
Speaker 1: I have to air all of our dirty laundry to
12:21
Speaker 1: the sheriff's office. Totally.
12:23
Speaker 2: I'm dealing with enough here. Now I'm having to deal
12:25
Speaker 2: with all of this.
12:25
Speaker 1: Yeah. But there's none of that. She doesn't ask. You know,
12:28
Speaker 1: they're like, we're going to have to report him missing.
12:30
Speaker 1: She says, well, I don't think he's missing. I think
12:31
Speaker 1: he's in Mexico. And they're like, well, we can't reach him.
12:34
Speaker 2: This whole thing sounds suspicious.
12:35
Speaker 1: Very suspicious.
12:36
Speaker 2: And the fact that he's in Mexico, sort of conveniently
12:39
Speaker 2: out of the country.
12:40
Speaker 1: A little harder to get to. It's very vague. Like, okay, Mexico.
12:43
Speaker 2: Could be true.
12:44
Speaker 1: Yeah.
12:44
Speaker 2: But like, yeah. Raises some red flags.
12:48
Speaker 1: Definitely raises red flags. So the officer gets this story
12:52
Speaker 1: from Dina and she's like, I know he's in Mexico
12:55
Speaker 1: because he's using our credit cards.
12:57
Speaker 2: Oh, OK.
12:58
Speaker 1: And he's like, oh, OK, well, that could be that's
13:00
Speaker 1: like maybe the first moment of maybe he is in Mexico. Yeah.
13:04
Speaker 1: She can see what he's spending money on. But she
13:06
Speaker 1: said she last saw him a couple of weeks earlier.
13:09
Speaker 1: So that would be early May, late April, which is
13:12
Speaker 1: a very different timeline from the neighbors. And she said
13:14
Speaker 1: he came to the house in Cloudcroft to pack up
13:16
Speaker 1: his things and then he was leaving again. So the
13:25
Speaker 1: officer is like, well, what was he wearing the last
13:26
Speaker 1: time you saw him? And she said he was wearing
13:29
Speaker 1: a big dog shirt. I don't know what that is.
13:31
Speaker 2: Is that a brand?
13:33
Speaker 1: She didn't go into detail, but some sort of like
13:35
Speaker 1: big dog shirt.
13:36
Speaker 2: Big dog? Wait, I gotta look this up real quick.
13:39
Speaker 2: I mean, it does look like there's a clothing brand
13:42
Speaker 2: called BigDogs.com.
13:44
Speaker 1: Okay, wow.
13:45
Speaker 2: I don't know if this is really it. It's like
13:47
Speaker 2: t-shirts with pictures of large dogs on them.
13:51
Speaker 1: I mean, it may have been the only morsel of
13:54
Speaker 1: truth that she tells officers this entire time. So... Dina
14:01
Speaker 1: hangs up on the officer. She gets kind of irritated.
14:05
Speaker 1: And I don't know if she like outwardly is like,
14:07
Speaker 1: I'm done with this conversation. But she hangs up. He
14:09
Speaker 1: calls back. She doesn't answer. Now, that conversation with Dina
14:13
Speaker 1: took place three days after that initial wellness check.
14:17
Speaker 2: And then the.
14:18
Speaker 1: Sheriff's office does something really smart. They call in Deputy
14:22
Speaker 1: Roger Schoolcraft. And this is the person that I spoke
14:25
Speaker 1: with briefly before this all had come to be resolved.
14:29
Speaker 1: But Dina's back in town. A neighbor tips them off.
14:31
Speaker 1: Dina's back from Texas. She'd been in Seymour with her mom.
14:34
Speaker 1: And so he goes over to the house. And Roger
14:37
Speaker 1: on the body cam footage, I mean, he just sounds
14:40
Speaker 1: so disarming and unassuming and like approachable. It's a small town.
14:47
Speaker 1: Dina's like, I recognize you. We met at a football game.
14:50
Speaker 1: And Roger's like, oh, that sounds right. And he's like,
14:54
Speaker 1: you know, can we sit down for a second? First
14:56
Speaker 1: of all, she answers the door like wrapped in a blanket.
14:59
Speaker 1: she just seems ultra relaxed. And she's, you know, she's
15:02
Speaker 1: not done up or anything. She's like, yeah, come on in.
15:05
Speaker 1: They sit down and Roger's just kind of asking her
15:09
Speaker 1: the same questions this initial officer did on this phone call.
15:13
Speaker 1: And she's just talking and talking and talking. It's like
15:17
Speaker 1: she had no concern, you can tell, during this conversation
15:22
Speaker 1: that anyone suspected anything. And he's just letting her talk.
15:26
Speaker 2: Does he suspect that she's involved in something at this point?
15:31
Speaker 1: Well, I don't know if he did when he initially
15:33
Speaker 1: went to the house, but it doesn't take long for
15:36
Speaker 1: her story to start not making sense with what she
15:40
Speaker 1: previously told people.
15:41
Speaker 2: Okay.
15:42
Speaker 1: You know, she had mentioned that she last saw him
15:45
Speaker 1: three weeks ago. Right. Which would be, I guess, the
15:48
Speaker 1: end of April.
15:48
Speaker 2: Because he came back to the house to pack up
15:50
Speaker 2: all of his things.
15:51
Speaker 1: Yeah. And she gives a date that's like a week
15:53
Speaker 1: after that.
15:54
Speaker 2: Interesting.
15:55
Speaker 1: And so Roger does something that's like It's so smooth
16:00
Speaker 1: the way he does it in this conversation. He's like, well,
16:04
Speaker 1: a little bit about me is I was actually retired
16:06
Speaker 1: for a couple of years and I just got so,
16:09
Speaker 1: you know, stir crazy. I decided to come back to work.
16:12
Speaker 1: And I used to be a homicide detective in Albuquerque
16:16
Speaker 1: and just sort of leaves it hanging. And she just
16:19
Speaker 1: kind of looks at him like, oh, OK. So there's
16:22
Speaker 1: a homicide detective sitting in her living room like she
16:24
Speaker 1: knows now.
16:25
Speaker 2: Does her demeanor change at that point?
16:27
Speaker 1: She kind of takes a breath and goes right back
16:30
Speaker 1: into like cool, calm, collected. But because like I know
16:34
Speaker 1: what I'm watching, it's like you can see it on
16:36
Speaker 1: her face that she's a little bit like, oh, this
16:38
Speaker 1: is not good for me.
16:40
Speaker 2: Right.
16:41
Speaker 1: But she just keeps talking and he asks her some
16:43
Speaker 1: questions like, how long have you guys been together? It's,
16:46
Speaker 1: you know, well over 10 years they've been together. She
16:49
Speaker 1: also tells Roger that Craig is her fourth husband. Okay.
16:53
Speaker 1: And she said something interesting in that conversation. She's like, oh,
16:57
Speaker 1: I just make a joke of it, but I eventually
16:59
Speaker 1: realized I'm the common denominator. So he's just like, oh, yeah,
17:03
Speaker 1: like laughing it off. And he just starts talking about
17:05
Speaker 1: his police work and kind of like, okay, I'm going
17:08
Speaker 1: to mirror her and like share because she's sharing and
17:11
Speaker 1: really make her feel comfortable.
17:13
Speaker 2: So this is body cam footage that you've watched?
17:15
Speaker 1: Yeah. Okay.
17:16
Speaker 2: And what does she look like?
17:18
Speaker 1: She is petite, blonde, very blonde, and... She just looks like,
17:25
Speaker 1: you know, your average, like, youngish grandma.
17:28
Speaker 2: Yeah.
17:29
Speaker 1: And she seems very approachable and charismatic.
17:34
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, when I hear that she's from West Texas,
17:37
Speaker 2: I'm like, yeah, of course she's like, come on in,
17:39
Speaker 2: and like chatting with him and very friendly. That feels
17:42
Speaker 2: very culturally aligned with West Texas.
17:46
Speaker 1: She offered him coffee. She's like, I was just about
17:48
Speaker 1: to make some coffee, and Roger's like, I would love
17:50
Speaker 1: some coffee.
17:50
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
17:52
Speaker 1: And by all accounts, like she was someone people liked
17:55
Speaker 1: to be around until they got to know her.
17:58
Speaker 2: Oh, really?
17:59
Speaker 1: Yeah. So Roger immediately clocks some inconsistencies in the timeline
18:04
Speaker 1: that she's giving him. He then is like, well, how
18:09
Speaker 1: are you paying for things? Because she's like, I don't
18:10
Speaker 1: have access to the money. He kept all the money
18:14
Speaker 1: in a safe and it's all cash. Then she mentions
18:16
Speaker 1: that she is paying the utility bills online. So it's like, OK,
18:19
Speaker 1: so you do have access to accounts. but you don't
18:22
Speaker 1: have access to this safe. The timeline you're giving me
18:25
Speaker 1: is a little off. So he's just not buying it.
18:29
Speaker 1: But still, they don't really have enough to say, we're
18:33
Speaker 1: going to take you down to the station. At this point,
18:35
Speaker 1: it's still way better for them to just keep building
18:37
Speaker 1: this relationship and this rapport and try to get information.
18:40
Speaker 1: And then Dina brings over something that she clearly thinks
18:44
Speaker 1: is like... Her, I don't know what the right word is,
18:47
Speaker 1: almost like an alibi or something. She brings over a whiteboard. Okay.
18:51
Speaker 1: And she's like, this is where we would leave notes
18:53
Speaker 1: for each other to communicate. And on the whiteboard and
18:56
Speaker 1: scratchy handwriting, it's like, I'm in El Salto. Maybe we
18:59
Speaker 1: can talk when I get back. And that's, you know,
19:01
Speaker 1: the place where she says he's fishing in Mexico. And
19:04
Speaker 1: she's like, your family's really worried about you. And the
19:06
Speaker 1: handwriting is really different. And he's like, so that's Craig
19:09
Speaker 1: and that's you. And she's like, mm-hmm, yep. And he's like, OK.
19:13
Speaker 1: You know, he's like, well, it's just a whiteboard. But
19:15
Speaker 1: I thought it was funny, too, because she goes up
19:18
Speaker 1: and gets the whiteboard off the wall and brings it
19:20
Speaker 1: to him. And I know that a little whiteboard isn't
19:23
Speaker 1: it's not like a heavy, cumbersome thing to do. But
19:26
Speaker 1: if I would just think you'd bring someone to a whiteboard.
19:30
Speaker 2: Yeah. It's very clearly like, look at this evidence.
19:33
Speaker 1: Yeah. It's like, let me present this to you. And,
19:36
Speaker 1: you know, you get the sense looking back, Roger probably
19:38
Speaker 1: feels the same way. So now we know that neighbors
19:41
Speaker 1: haven't seen or heard from Craig since January. And also
19:45
Speaker 1: Dina said he left that message on the whiteboard on
19:47
Speaker 1: March 28th. But then she had also said maybe he
19:50
Speaker 1: was there a few weeks ago getting more clothing. So
19:54
Speaker 1: nothing is adding up. And Roger now knows, well, she's
19:59
Speaker 1: on her fourth husband. We should probably find out why.
20:02
Speaker 2: Do they look into the three other husbands and make
20:05
Speaker 2: sure that they're you know, alive and well and driving.
20:09
Speaker 1: And they are all alive.
20:10
Speaker 2: Okay, great.
20:11
Speaker 1: But it sounds like narrowly.
20:13
Speaker 2: What? Yeah.
20:15
Speaker 1: One said that she tried to stab him with a
20:17
Speaker 1: kitchen knife. Another one said that she tried to run
20:20
Speaker 1: him over with a car. Another one said that she
20:23
Speaker 1: tried to shoot him, but the gun wasn't loaded. It
20:25
Speaker 1: was his gun in the nightstand. He's like, I never
20:28
Speaker 1: kept it loaded because I didn't trust her.
20:29
Speaker 2: Oh, my gosh.
20:30
Speaker 1: And apparently she is extremely volatile and violent when she's drinking.
20:35
Speaker 1: which is often.
20:37
Speaker 2: Wow.
20:38
Speaker 1: Yeah. And so before Roger leaves that day, she's also said, well,
20:42
Speaker 1: those boxes, that was him packing up all of his
20:44
Speaker 1: clothes because he's moving out because we're separating. She's talking about,
20:47
Speaker 1: I want to get the house. I'm going to ask
20:49
Speaker 1: him for the house. So kind of making it sound
20:52
Speaker 1: like That's maybe why he's avoiding me is because he's
20:54
Speaker 1: avoiding this process because he knows he's going to have
20:56
Speaker 1: to give some stuff up.
20:57
Speaker 2: Okay.
20:58
Speaker 1: Which, you know, I've never been through a divorce, but, like,
21:01
Speaker 1: we've all heard that story a million times. Like, some
21:03
Speaker 1: people drag these things out because they're unpleasant and they
21:07
Speaker 1: can or whatever. Then she says, can I say something
21:10
Speaker 1: off the record? Which, like, if you're talking to a
21:13
Speaker 1: cop about your missing husband, like, it's.
21:16
Speaker 2: Not off the record. This is not a reporter.
21:17
Speaker 1: But he's like, yes, yes, you can.
21:19
Speaker 2: And so.
21:21
Speaker 1: She's like, there's a bunch of cash in our safe
21:23
Speaker 1: because he doesn't like to keep money in the bank.
21:26
Speaker 1: I don't have the code, but I don't know if
21:29
Speaker 1: that's something you guys are looking into because he's missing,
21:33
Speaker 1: if he took all this cash or not. And he's like,
21:35
Speaker 1: you don't have the code anywhere? And she's like, no.
21:38
Speaker 1: And Roger's like, well, I don't know that we can
21:39
Speaker 1: get into that today, but I can make a note
21:41
Speaker 1: of it. But of course, he's like, we need to
21:43
Speaker 1: get into the safe. But he does ask her to
21:46
Speaker 1: show him the safe. And they walk downstairs and it's
21:49
Speaker 1: this big, big it's a very serious safe I think
21:53
Speaker 1: Roger said it would be an act of God to
21:55
Speaker 1: break into it okay there's a hot tub next to
21:57
Speaker 1: it and she's like oh Craig got me that as
21:59
Speaker 1: a present but now I don't know if I'll get
22:00
Speaker 1: to keep it and he's like you know these people
22:03
Speaker 1: have some money like they're enjoying their life this isn't
22:06
Speaker 1: making sense so Roger leaves keeps digging talks to the
22:10
Speaker 1: ex-husbands and then learns through their investigation that she's been
22:15
Speaker 1: spending a lot of money and she's been spending cash.
22:19
Speaker 1: And one of the things she bought was a house
22:21
Speaker 1: in Texas where she's from in Seymour. She also bought
22:24
Speaker 1: a blue Mustang and she's paying cash. So where is
22:27
Speaker 1: it coming from if you don't have the code to
22:29
Speaker 1: the safe? So five days later, Roger goes back to
22:33
Speaker 1: the house again. Dina's still there. And when he walks up, because,
22:38
Speaker 1: you know, his body cam is recording from the moment
22:40
Speaker 1: he gets out of the car. He turns, and you
22:43
Speaker 1: can see he's looking at, I mean, what's it called?
22:46
Speaker 1: I'm just hearing that blippy excavator song. It looks like
22:49
Speaker 1: a tractor with a scooper on it. Is that an excavator?
22:51
Speaker 1: But it's like, okay, you're trying to dig a big
22:54
Speaker 1: hole in the ground. Like, this is a piece of
22:58
Speaker 1: equipment that she would have had to rent somewhere. And
23:01
Speaker 1: she is, in fact, digging a big hole in the ground.
23:03
Speaker 1: She's not physically on it in that moment, but there's,
23:05
Speaker 1: you can see, a hole in progress.
23:07
Speaker 2: In the front yard? In the backyard?
23:09
Speaker 1: In the front yard, next to a shed. And so
23:12
Speaker 1: Roger goes in and just to keep it light, he's like,
23:15
Speaker 1: so what are you burying? What are you putting in
23:17
Speaker 1: the ground? And she's like, oh, nothing. I'm going to
23:20
Speaker 1: put rocks down and then it's going to be a
23:22
Speaker 1: gardening bed. And he's like, okay. But like you're, you know,
23:26
Speaker 1: in the process of a divorce, you don't know who's
23:28
Speaker 1: going to get this house. Like what?
23:30
Speaker 2: Wow.
23:31
Speaker 1: Yeah. And so in regards to the safe, they now
23:34
Speaker 1: know she's spending a lot of money, but they don't
23:36
Speaker 1: know where she's getting it because she said she can't
23:38
Speaker 1: access the safe. And They're continuing to have conversations with
23:42
Speaker 1: the neighbors. And the neighbor who was a volunteer firefighter
23:45
Speaker 1: with Craig said that Craig knew it was a dangerous job.
23:49
Speaker 1: And he mentioned at one point that he had a
23:52
Speaker 1: lot of cash stored so that Dina would have it
23:55
Speaker 1: and she had access to it if anything ever happened
23:57
Speaker 1: to him.
23:57
Speaker 2: Okay.
23:58
Speaker 1: So directly contradicting. She can get into that safe. She
24:02
Speaker 1: can get into the safe. Another neighbor says that Dina
24:05
Speaker 1: and Craig had explosive fights, especially if Dina was drinking.
24:09
Speaker 1: You know, we know that her ex-husbands don't have nice
24:12
Speaker 1: things to say about her. It's just, it's not looking good.
24:16
Speaker 2: Yeah.
24:16
Speaker 1: But the real bombshell comes from Dina's own close family
24:21
Speaker 1: member who calls in two crime stoppers with really damning information.
24:27
Speaker 1: She tells the story of a Dina who is abusive
24:31
Speaker 1: to her children. Oof. And said that Dina told her
24:34
Speaker 1: that she got into a fight with Craig. This was
24:37
Speaker 1: Dina's story. We don't know what happened. She said Craig
24:40
Speaker 1: pushed her down the stairs and so Dina shot him
24:42
Speaker 1: three times. and then moved his body from their home
24:46
Speaker 1: to the carport. And then shortly after that, another friend
24:50
Speaker 1: of Dina's, a longtime friend back in Texas, calls and
24:53
Speaker 1: says the same thing. So she's now said the same
24:56
Speaker 1: story to two people.
25:03
Speaker 2: So she's told people, I shot him, I killed him,
25:06
Speaker 2: I moved his body. To the carport. The carport is
25:10
Speaker 2: like an open.
25:11
Speaker 1: Theirs is like, it's closed. I don't know. It's like
25:16
Speaker 1: a big work garage, but they're calling it the carport.
25:19
Speaker 1: And in that very first call, when officers arrived at
25:23
Speaker 1: the house for the wellness check, one of them notes
25:26
Speaker 1: a strange smell. Okay. But there's wildlife everywhere. Right. They
25:30
Speaker 1: don't know what the smell is.
25:31
Speaker 2: And it had been a long time.
25:33
Speaker 1: Had been a long time. Yeah.
25:34
Speaker 2: When did she reveal this to two people in her life?
25:38
Speaker 1: I'm guessing it happened in the spring because no one
25:41
Speaker 1: had heard from Craig since January. And in both instances,
25:46
Speaker 1: I suspect she'd been drinking when she was talking about it.
25:49
Speaker 2: Okay. But then maybe they weren't sure if she was
25:54
Speaker 2: telling the truth because they waited a few months to call.
25:57
Speaker 1: Yeah. Like, I think there was also a fear of
26:00
Speaker 1: her and wronging her.
26:03
Speaker 2: Also, it sounds like she's this little lady and she moved...
26:07
Speaker 2: A dead body?
26:09
Speaker 1: She told them that she rolled it up in a
26:11
Speaker 1: carpet and drug it across to the carport. Yeah. And
26:16
Speaker 1: so it's a good question, right? Because if someone tells
26:18
Speaker 1: me that story, and I know they have a history
26:20
Speaker 1: of violence and drinking, why am I waiting to call?
26:23
Speaker 1: But people like that can also have probably conditioned you
26:26
Speaker 1: to be scared of them. And so it's just hard
26:30
Speaker 1: to say what anyone would do in that situation. Because
26:33
Speaker 1: if you're wrong, then you've really angered someone who you
26:35
Speaker 1: think is dangerous. Yeah.
26:37
Speaker 2: And they're your family member. You're going to see them.
26:40
Speaker 2: They know where you live.
26:41
Speaker 1: Yeah. And I'm not using this person's name because I
26:44
Speaker 1: know they made the tip anonymously to Crimestoppers, but their
26:47
Speaker 1: name is now everywhere. And their relationship to her is
26:51
Speaker 1: now everywhere. Yeah. Same with this friend of hers. And
26:54
Speaker 1: I just, I don't know how to feel about that.
26:56
Speaker 1: It's like, we'll get more into it, but... So investigators,
27:00
Speaker 1: their suspicions are all but confirmed. Like, Dina has done
27:02
Speaker 1: something to Craig, and she's not telling us the full
27:05
Speaker 1: story here. But they don't have anything to charge her
27:08
Speaker 1: with yet because they haven't found Craig.
27:11
Speaker 2: Nobody. Nobody. No crime.
27:12
Speaker 1: Right. And so they could charge her theoretically and try
27:16
Speaker 1: to make a case out of it. But, you know,
27:19
Speaker 1: here's a guy who keeps a lot of money in cash.
27:22
Speaker 1: He could probably just disappear if he wants to.
27:24
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's another version of this story where she's... been
27:29
Speaker 2: volatile and he's finally had enough and he does peace
27:32
Speaker 2: out and go to Mexico and is like, I don't
27:34
Speaker 2: want to talk to you or be around you.
27:35
Speaker 1: Right. Like you're scary.
27:37
Speaker 2: Yeah.
27:37
Speaker 1: I mean, think about all the things she did to
27:38
Speaker 1: her exes. Like what must she have done to him?
27:41
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's not like this impossible theory, even though
27:45
Speaker 1: it didn't fit his character at all to go out
27:48
Speaker 1: of contact with people. Right. So things then take another
27:52
Speaker 1: turn because Dina goes back to Texas where she's staying
27:55
Speaker 1: with her mother and she attempts to end her life.
27:58
Speaker 2: Oh, my gosh. Yeah.
27:59
Speaker 1: And so they're like, we need to charge her because
28:02
Speaker 1: if she does end up dying, like, we may never
28:04
Speaker 1: find out what happened. Yeah.
28:06
Speaker 2: And we need to get into the carport. They haven't
28:08
Speaker 2: searched the carport yet?
28:09
Speaker 1: No, it's locked up and they want to do it
28:11
Speaker 1: the right way so they can use everything. So they're
28:13
Speaker 1: trying to get a search warrant.
28:14
Speaker 2: Okay.
28:15
Speaker 1: Well, this makes it so time is really of the
28:17
Speaker 1: essence and they get the search warrant. He's in the carport.
28:21
Speaker 1: The remains are in the carport. Oh. He's covered in
28:24
Speaker 1: a tarp and like mothballs. And she clearly had plans
28:29
Speaker 1: to do something else with his remains. But I mean,
28:32
Speaker 1: for months.
28:32
Speaker 2: That's horrible.
28:33
Speaker 1: That's horrible to think about. It's actually like so bizarre, too,
28:38
Speaker 1: because just sleeping in the house alone in the woods,
28:40
Speaker 1: I'm like. Yeah, I'm an adult. I don't lay awake
28:43
Speaker 1: at night worried about ghosts. But like, come on, are
28:47
Speaker 1: you not scared of anything? There's a body in your
28:50
Speaker 1: carport and you're just going to sleep at night? Like,
28:52
Speaker 1: that's just so scary and strange.
28:55
Speaker 2: It seems like she probably thought it was safer to
28:56
Speaker 2: just leave his body there. But then once the detective
29:01
Speaker 2: started to come around, she immediately went out and rented
29:03
Speaker 2: this industrial digger and started digging up the backyard or
29:07
Speaker 2: front yard, which is Quite brazen. Yeah. Such bad planning. Yeah.
29:13
Speaker 1: Very confident person to do that. I mean, police are
29:16
Speaker 1: regularly visiting her house. Yeah. Like, what? And so once
29:21
Speaker 1: they find Craig's remains, it's very clear he has been
29:24
Speaker 1: dead since January, which is the last time his friends
29:27
Speaker 1: and family had really verifiably seen or heard from him.
29:30
Speaker 1: They are able to then break into the safe and
29:33
Speaker 1: they find $ 84, 000 in cash. They find guns and they
29:36
Speaker 1: find a lot of cleaning supplies.
29:39
Speaker 2: So.
29:40
Speaker 1: They're pretty confident that this story that she told her
29:43
Speaker 1: friend and family member is probably some version of what
29:46
Speaker 1: actually happened. And through their forensic investigation with their finances,
29:52
Speaker 1: they determined that she spent $ 1. 5 million since January 2025
29:55
Speaker 1: to June. purchasing cars and homes. She told law enforcement
30:03
Speaker 1: and family that he was in Mexico, but he actually
30:05
Speaker 1: hadn't gone to Mexico since 2023.
30:07
Speaker 2: Wow. So there had been much more money in that safe.
30:11
Speaker 2: She'd spent $ 1. 5 million of it.
30:13
Speaker 1: Yeah.
30:14
Speaker 2: Wow. Okay.
30:15
Speaker 1: Very quickly. And so Dina was, of course, then the
30:19
Speaker 1: person behind all these text messages to friends and family
30:23
Speaker 1: who thought they were communicating with Craig until months later
30:27
Speaker 1: when they're like, something is up. And so she's arrested
30:31
Speaker 1: and she pleads not guilty. She's like, I'm going to
30:34
Speaker 1: get a lawyer and fight this. Well, she's arrested and
30:37
Speaker 1: booked in jail on July 8th, 2025. And it takes
30:41
Speaker 1: a year for her to decide, maybe I'm not going
30:44
Speaker 1: to be able to fight this. And she ends up
30:47
Speaker 1: pleading guilty to second degree murder, tampering with evidence and forgery.
30:53
Speaker 1: I saw two ages for her at the time, 60
30:56
Speaker 1: or 61 years old. And she was sentenced to 18 years.
30:59
Speaker 2: Okay. So that was just recently that she got guilty.
31:23
Speaker 1: And yeah, I think I agree. The more we work
31:27
Speaker 1: on these kinds of stories and learn about different sentences,
31:30
Speaker 1: it actually made me, I'm going to get back to
31:32
Speaker 1: the Craig Thetford case in a minute, but, or Dina
31:35
Speaker 1: Thetford case, but it made me think of Brian Barker,
31:39
Speaker 1: who I talked about a while ago, but he's that
31:41
Speaker 1: police officer who burglarized homes and businesses in Illinois, I
31:46
Speaker 1: think it was. He was sentenced to 40 years. Yeah.
31:50
Speaker 2: And no one got hurt.
31:51
Speaker 1: And no one got hurt. And he actually had a
31:54
Speaker 1: very traumatic life leading up to that, that, you know,
31:58
Speaker 1: I can't diagnose him, but I don't know. I think
32:00
Speaker 1: it's pretty clear that he was a troubled person who
32:03
Speaker 1: was conditioned to steal from people.
32:07
Speaker 2: Which, like, doesn't always come into play when it comes
32:10
Speaker 2: to sentencing, because You could argue that anyone that murders
32:13
Speaker 2: their spouse is a pretty troubled person who's had, you know,
32:16
Speaker 2: probably some trauma in their life, too.
32:18
Speaker 1: Totally.
32:18
Speaker 2: But, you know, you commit a crime and you gotta, like,
32:23
Speaker 2: serve time for it. But it's weird how varied those
32:26
Speaker 2: sentences can be. Like, she took a human life. And
32:31
Speaker 2: Brian Barker didn't.
32:32
Speaker 1: He stole things and he stole money, but he did
32:35
Speaker 1: not kill someone.
32:36
Speaker 2: Yeah.
32:36
Speaker 1: And he's serving 40 years where she's got 18.
32:40
Speaker 2: Yeah. I wonder, I guess it's maybe because she pled guilty.
32:43
Speaker 2: They gave her some deal. But, you know, so if
32:45
Speaker 2: she's 60, she'll be 78 when she gets out. You
32:48
Speaker 2: can still live a long life. And if she's a
32:51
Speaker 2: healthy 78, she could also still be a dangerous person
32:55
Speaker 2: at that point. So it doesn't seem like a very
32:58
Speaker 2: long time, to be honest.
33:00
Speaker 1: No. I mean, 18 years for what she did, I think,
33:02
Speaker 1: feels like a lightweight sentence. And I know that these,
33:05
Speaker 1: especially probably in a smaller county, you have more limited resources.
33:09
Speaker 1: Are you going to spend all of your time getting
33:11
Speaker 1: your prosecutor ready for a trial? Or are you going to?
33:16
Speaker 1: Take a plea deal and put those resources elsewhere because
33:19
Speaker 1: you never know what could happen at trial.
33:21
Speaker 2: Right.
33:21
Speaker 1: So pretty nuts. But Craig Thetford's estate and family was
33:26
Speaker 1: also awarded a $ 143 million judgment from Dina Thetford for
33:32
Speaker 1: the wrongful death of Craig Thetford. I don't know how
33:35
Speaker 1: much of that they'll receive, right?
33:36
Speaker 2: How is she going to— does she have money to pay that?
33:38
Speaker 1: I think the reason for this lawsuit, this wrongful death lawsuit,
33:43
Speaker 1: was to prevent her from maintaining any assets that she
33:47
Speaker 1: would have acquired in the marriage or inheriting those. It's like, no.
33:51
Speaker 2: Everything that's left of theirs goes toward his family members.
33:55
Speaker 1: Right, right. Okay. Yeah, and so, you know, I would
33:58
Speaker 1: assume also she'll have to pay them a portion of
34:00
Speaker 1: any earnings she ever makes again. In his obituary, Craig Thetford,
34:05
Speaker 1: his date that he passed is listed as June 17, 2025,
34:09
Speaker 1: which is when his remains were found. He was born
34:12
Speaker 1: in 1964 in Ranger, Texas, and who's a son, brother, uncle, father, grandfather,
34:17
Speaker 1: and friend. And after retiring from his successful roofing business,
34:22
Speaker 1: he worked just as hard as a volunteer firefighter. protecting
34:26
Speaker 1: the wilderness that he loved.
34:28
Speaker 2: Yeah, wow.
34:29
Speaker 1: Yeah, and even Dina in her conversations with detectives, they
34:33
Speaker 1: were always suspicious of Dina, but they're like, does he
34:36
Speaker 1: have any enemies? And she's like, no, everyone loves him.
34:39
Speaker 1: He'd give everyone the shirt off his back. He's the
34:41
Speaker 1: most well-liked, hardworking person and treats everyone so well. And yeah,
34:47
Speaker 1: it's just, it's sad when someone goes missing or is
34:50
Speaker 1: murdered and the spouse is like, immediately questioned, but it's
34:55
Speaker 1: so often the case that something close to home happened
34:58
Speaker 1: that I understand it. It's like, it probably wouldn't have
35:01
Speaker 1: taken much for her to get away with this for
35:04
Speaker 1: even longer than she did.
35:05
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, she got away with it for a
35:07
Speaker 2: long time, honestly.
35:10
Speaker 1: Yeah.
35:10
Speaker 2: I'm glad that she was caught.
35:11
Speaker 1: Definitely. So Roger was great and he's still working in
35:15
Speaker 1: Otero County.
35:16
Speaker 2: So you've been in contact with him and then was
35:18
Speaker 2: he able to speak to you once she pled guilty?
35:20
Speaker 1: I haven't spoken to him since. I just had that
35:23
Speaker 1: initial phone call with him when I was first poking
35:26
Speaker 1: around when I read about this case. And then I
35:28
Speaker 1: saw that it had been wrapped up and I was like, oh,
35:31
Speaker 1: I'm going to talk about this. Oh, okay.
35:32
Speaker 2: I see. I see.
35:33
Speaker 1: Yeah. I didn't think we would be able to schedule
35:36
Speaker 1: an interview because he's a very busy person. Right.
35:38
Speaker 2: Well, that's, yeah, that's an interesting story. Yeah. I've never
35:41
Speaker 2: heard of it.
35:42
Speaker 1: Yeah. Maybe we'll be hearing more as now that it's
35:46
Speaker 1: wrapped up and I would expect there to be something
35:49
Speaker 1: about it. But I also have a recommendation.
35:52
Speaker 2: Oh, okay.
35:53
Speaker 1: I just watched it actually on Hulu.
35:55
Speaker 2: Okay.
35:56
Speaker 1: It's a true crime documentary. It's by Investigation Discovery and
35:59
Speaker 1: it's a three-part docuseries called Big Girls Wanted Escaping Paradise.
36:05
Speaker 1: Paradise is spelled like the fruit, like P-E-A-R, paradise.
36:10
Speaker 2: Oh, okay.
36:11
Speaker 1: But It's an interesting documentary in that it explores the
36:15
Speaker 1: world of feeders, which I had never heard of. Basically,
36:21
Speaker 1: there's this man in Las Vegas who created Paradise, and
36:25
Speaker 1: it's a house, his house, where he just, he really
36:28
Speaker 1: loves what he describes as big women. And the story
36:33
Speaker 1: is told largely by a journalist and photojournalist who... Never
36:37
Speaker 1: felt like she fit in in the world because of
36:39
Speaker 1: her weight or never felt like she was fully accepted
36:42
Speaker 1: because of her weight. And so she went to explore
36:45
Speaker 1: it both as a journalist and as someone who resonated
36:49
Speaker 1: with like wanting to feel accepted and not judged by
36:52
Speaker 1: your body. Yeah. But when she got in there, she
36:55
Speaker 1: realized something else was happening. There was a lot of
36:57
Speaker 1: control with food, a lot of manipulation from her perspective
37:02
Speaker 1: and the perspective of other former members of Paradise. I
37:06
Speaker 1: don't know if they call themselves members, I guess. Cult vibes.
37:09
Speaker 1: Very much, to me, cult vibes and... A lot of death,
37:14
Speaker 1: like not a lot, but at least one death that
37:18
Speaker 1: a lot of the people in the documentary felt like was,
37:22
Speaker 1: you know, something that contributed to this person's death was
37:25
Speaker 1: the way that they were treated in the house. And there,
37:29
Speaker 1: I don't know if it would be classified as like
37:32
Speaker 1: something to do with a food addiction or not, but
37:35
Speaker 1: basically a lot of control. And there's a website that
37:38
Speaker 1: they talk about a lot in this documentary. I think
37:41
Speaker 1: it's called Phoebe. Let me look it up, actually. But
37:44
Speaker 1: it's people who are, yeah, Phoebe, obsessed with or fetishize eating.
37:52
Speaker 1: And for a lot of these women, their health was
37:55
Speaker 1: already at risk. And it was honestly bizarre. The man
38:01
Speaker 1: at the center of this, he participates in the documentary.
38:05
Speaker 2: Interesting.
38:06
Speaker 1: Yeah. But there's also a lot of footage of him eating.
38:10
Speaker 1: just saying and doing really awful things. So I don't
38:12
Speaker 1: know if it's just like, it's extremely confident. Wow. But
38:16
Speaker 1: I wonder.
38:17
Speaker 2: Do they interview people who like lived in this house
38:20
Speaker 2: previously and got out?
38:22
Speaker 1: Yeah. And people who still do and love being there.
38:25
Speaker 2: Wow. Yeah. How'd you find this?
38:28
Speaker 1: It was just on Hulu. And I was like, oh,
38:32
Speaker 1: my husband's traveling for work. I don't have to watch
38:34
Speaker 1: a golf tournament this weekend. No offense to golf. Yeah.
38:40
Speaker 1: And so I watched the whole thing and yeah, I
38:43
Speaker 1: would recommend it. I mean, look, it's a sad documentary,
38:47
Speaker 1: but I thought it was exposure to a world I
38:49
Speaker 1: hadn't seen before, was not familiar with. And I think
38:53
Speaker 1: also we're more inclusive now than we were before and
38:59
Speaker 1: our generation and certainly generations younger than us, especially are
39:03
Speaker 1: working toward like more inclusive language and Like we all
39:07
Speaker 1: grew up in the 90s, like Weight Watchers and just
39:10
Speaker 1: everything about being skinny.
39:12
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, and just like trying to date. And if
39:14
Speaker 2: you fall into a category, a person who's being fetishized,
39:20
Speaker 2: like I have heard about this from some of my friends,
39:23
Speaker 2: some of my curvier friends, where like they'll get creepy
39:26
Speaker 2: messages from guys on dating apps who are just like,
39:29
Speaker 2: I want to feed you. And they're like, okay.
39:32
Speaker 1: That's so strange.
39:34
Speaker 2: Like, you're not seeing me as a person.
39:36
Speaker 1: Right.
39:36
Speaker 2: I'm just a fetish to you. And there's obviously a
39:39
Speaker 2: lot of different versions of that, right? But certain people
39:42
Speaker 2: in certain demographics have to field that a lot more
39:45
Speaker 2: than others. And I think there's probably just a lot
39:47
Speaker 2: of frustration and exhaustion that comes with that.
39:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, there was a young woman in the documentary who
39:54
Speaker 1: talked about this being the first time in her life
39:56
Speaker 1: she ever felt like wanted by someone. And it's like
40:00
Speaker 1: heartbreaking because, you know, not to say that two things
40:04
Speaker 1: can't coexist, but if there's an exercise of control or
40:09
Speaker 1: maybe doing something that is not healthy, it's not a
40:13
Speaker 1: good balance. But yeah, it's called Big Girls Wanted, and
40:17
Speaker 1: it's on Hulu if you want to watch it.
40:19
Speaker 2: Cool. I do not have a recommendation for you today.
40:23
Speaker 1: You haven't just been watching or listening to things all weekend?
40:26
Speaker 2: I have watched stuff, but I feel like it's stuff
40:28
Speaker 2: that people already have heard of. You know, I watched
40:32
Speaker 2: the Crash documentary on Hulu, Mackenzie Shurella. But pretty much,
40:37
Speaker 2: if you're into true crime, I feel like you've probably
40:39
Speaker 2: watched that already.
40:40
Speaker 1: Yeah.
40:41
Speaker 2: I thought it was well done. I thought it was interesting. Wait,
40:43
Speaker 2: did you watch it yet?
40:44
Speaker 1: No, I haven't watched it yet, but I need to.
40:46
Speaker 1: I feel like I did a lot of reading about
40:48
Speaker 1: that case when it first came out, but I definitely
40:51
Speaker 1: would like to watch it. I think that, and maybe
40:53
Speaker 1: this is answered in the documentary, I'm always shocked by
40:57
Speaker 1: teenagers driving and getting in wrecks that have done things
41:01
Speaker 1: before that are questionable because I feel like my parents
41:04
Speaker 1: would take my car away if I looked at them.
41:06
Speaker 2: The wrong way. Like, her parents basically gave her a
41:09
Speaker 2: lot of leeway. She was 17 living with her 19-
41:12
Speaker 2: or 20-year-old boyfriend, and they were like, great, you know.
41:17
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, that wouldn't have flown in my household.
41:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think it was just, like, a very different—
41:23
Speaker 2: I mean, her dad has gotten a lot of flack.
41:26
Speaker 2: I read somewhere that he was let go from his
41:28
Speaker 2: job after this.
41:29
Speaker 1: Oh.
41:30
Speaker 2: And I have not confirmed that, so I don't know
41:32
Speaker 2: for sure, but there was, like, a lot of people
41:33
Speaker 2: that got mad at him because he's wearing a T-shirt—
41:37
Speaker 2: In the interview that says, like, in sort of, like,
41:39
Speaker 2: cartoon-y characters, it says, like, boom. Like, if you were
41:43
Speaker 2: to watch a cartoon of, whatever, Bugs Bunny running around,
41:46
Speaker 2: and then there's, like, a TNT, and it's like, boom.
41:48
Speaker 1: It's just in really bad taste.
41:50
Speaker 2: It's just in bad taste. And it's like, that probably
41:52
Speaker 2: doesn't mean anything, but it kind of, like, blew up
41:54
Speaker 2: on the internet. People were like, what the heck? How
41:57
Speaker 2: could he do that?
41:57
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
41:58
Speaker 2: And I don't know if there was other reasons, but.
42:00
Speaker 1: Because it's one thing to feel like you have to
42:02
Speaker 1: defend your child no matter what. Like, I think that's
42:05
Speaker 1: probably just this primal instinct that you have when you're
42:09
Speaker 1: a parent. But it's another to be insensitive to the
42:12
Speaker 1: harm that they've caused so blatantly.
42:15
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was interesting. I recommend it. And I like
42:18
Speaker 2: that it was just one. It was like an hour
42:21
Speaker 2: or something long. It was it wasn't like a three parter.
42:24
Speaker 2: If there's enough content for a three-parter, I'm all for it.
42:27
Speaker 2: But I sometimes feel like it's a little stretched out. Yeah, definitely.
42:30
Speaker 2: And it was nice that this was just like a one,
42:32
Speaker 2: sit down and watch it. I thought they did a
42:33
Speaker 2: really good job. We had talked about this case before.
42:36
Speaker 2: And then a few months before the documentary came out,
42:40
Speaker 2: I was revisiting it. I'm like, oh, I wonder if
42:43
Speaker 2: we could get more information about it now. And so
42:44
Speaker 2: I was doing a lot of outreach and research. called
42:47
Speaker 2: some of the victims' family members. They never answered, probably
42:50
Speaker 2: because they were like, hey, we already did this documentary. Yeah,
42:53
Speaker 2: we're not going to talk on your little podcast. Yeah.
42:56
Speaker 2: So anyway, it was a good watch. So I guess
42:58
Speaker 2: that is my recommendation. If you haven't seen it, check
43:01
Speaker 2: it out.
43:01
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, thanks for listening. We'll be back next week.
43:07
Speaker 1: If you have a story for us, we would love
43:09
Speaker 1: to hear it. Our email is thenife at exactlyrightmedia.com. Or
43:13
Speaker 1: you can follow us on Instagram at The Knife Podcast
43:16
Speaker 1: or Blue Sky at The Knife Podcast.
43:18
Speaker 2: This has been an Exactly Right production. Hosted and produced
43:21
Speaker 2: by me, Hannah Smith.
43:22
Speaker 1: And me, Patia Eaton. Our producers are Tom Breifogel and
43:25
Speaker 1: Alexa Samorosi.
43:27
Speaker 2: This episode was mixed by Tom Breifogel.
43:29
Speaker 1: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.
43:32
Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Birds in the Airport.
43:34
Speaker 1: Artwork by Vanessa Lilac.
43:36
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark, and Danielle Kramer.