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314. People Pleasing is Costing You More Than You Think · The Kathie Owen Perspective Podcast

• 0:00
  Kathie (2): What if people pleasing isn't really about being nice?
• 0:04
  Kathie (2): What if it's about trying to control what happens next?
• 0:08
  Kathie (2): You say yes because you don't wanna disappoint them.
• 0:12
  Kathie (2): You explain yourself because you don't want them to misunderstand you.
• 0:18
  Kathie (2): You apologize because you want the tension to disappear.
• 0:22
  Kathie (2): You change your opinion because you don't want conflict.
• 0:26
  Kathie (2): You replay the conversation because you need to prove, at least inside your own head, that you weren't wrong.
• 0:33
  Kathie (2): And sometimes you work harder, give more, fix more, carry more, and become more agreeable simply because somebody else is uncomfortable.
• 0:44
  Kathie (2): It can look like kindness.
• 0:45
  Kathie (2): It can look like generosity.
• 0:47
  Kathie (2): It can even look like responsibility.
• 0:50
  Kathie (2): But underneath it, something else may be happening.
• 0:54
  Kathie (2): You may be taking responsibility for something that was never yours to carry.
• 0:59
  Kathie (2): And that's where people pleasing gets really interesting.
• 1:04
  Kathie (2): Welcome to the Kathie Owen Perspective podcast, where we explore human patterns under pressure and what those patterns reveal about the way we lead, communicate, work, and live.
• 1:16
  Kathie (2): My name is Kathie Owen, and I spend a tremendous amount of time studying human behavior and psychology.
• 1:24
  Kathie (2): But I don't just study psychology in books, I study psychology in environments.
• 1:29
  Kathie (2): I observe people, I observe rooms, I watch what happens when pressure enters a conversation.
• 1:36
  Kathie (2): I notice what happens when someone's tone changes.
• 1:40
  Kathie (2): When somebody gets uncomfortable, when leadership is challenged, when uncertainty enters the room.
• 1:46
  Kathie (2): And I spend just as much time observing these patterns in myself, because pressure reveals things, and the goal isn't to diagnose everybody around us, it's to become better observers of ourselves.
• 2:00
  Kathie (2): That's the foundation of my work around human patterns under pressure.
• 2:04
  Kathie (2): And today we're going back to the circus, because we're meeting one of the most entertaining, and perhaps one of the most misunderstood, characters in the entire tent: the clown.
• 2:17
  Kathie (2): In Human Patterns Under Pressure, each pattern has a circus character.
• 2:22
  Kathie (2): Control is the ringmaster.
• 2:24
  Kathie (2): Withdrawal is the tightrope walker.
• 2:27
  Kathie (2): Criticism is the lion tamer.
• 2:30
  Kathie (2): Perfectionism is the juggler.
• 2:32
  Kathie (2): And people-pleasing is the clown.
• 2:35
  Kathie (2): We have two more to get to, so hang on tight for the upcoming episodes.
• 2:39
  Kathie (2): But today we are talking about the clown.
• 2:44
  Kathie (2): And think about the clown's job.
• 2:46
  Kathie (2): The clown watches the audience.
• 2:48
  Kathie (2): Are they laughing?
• 2:49
  Kathie (2): Are they bored?
• 2:50
  Kathie (2): Are they uncomfortable?
• 2:51
  Kathie (2): Is everybody having a good time?
• 2:53
  Kathie (2): If the energy drops, the clown does something.
• 2:56
  Kathie (2): May make a joke, fall down, put on a ridiculous hat, change the act, keep everybody entertained, keep everybody happy.
• 3:05
  Kathie (2): Now, imagine our clown getting ready backstage.
• 3:09
  Kathie (2): He reaches for the blue makeup.
• 3:10
  Kathie (2): Then he stops.
• 3:12
  Kathie (2): Maybe they won't like blue.
• 3:14
  Kathie (2): Better use red.
• 3:16
  Kathie (2): He puts on his favorite jacket.
• 3:17
  Kathie (2): Then he thinks,"Maybe that's not funny enough." So he grabs the giant flashy one, then bigger shoes, another hat, more makeup, more performance, and eventually the clown looks in the mirror and barely recognizes himself.
• 3:33
  Kathie (2): Not because anybody actually told him what to wear, but because he imagined what the audience might think.
• 3:40
  Kathie (2): That's people-pleasing, and that's an important nuance.
• 3:45
  Kathie (2): Sometimes nobody asked us to change.
• 3:49
  Kathie (2): Nobody asked us to perform.
• 3:50
  Kathie (2): Nobody asked us to say yes.
• 3:53
  Kathie (2): We're responding to what we think they might think.
• 3:57
  Kathie (2): I want to make something very clear.
• 3:59
  Kathie (2): Kindness is not people pleasing.
• 4:02
  Kathie (2): Generosity is not people pleasing.
• 4:04
  Kathie (2): Compromise is not people pleasing.
• 4:07
  Kathie (2): Helping someone is not people pleasing.
• 4:10
  Kathie (2): Sometimes I genuinely want to do something for another person.
• 4:14
  Kathie (2): I may even inconvenience myself, and that's okay.
• 4:19
  Kathie (2): The question isn't simply did I say yes?
• 4:22
  Kathie (2): The better question might be could I have tolerated saying no?
• 4:27
  Kathie (2): Because two people can perform exactly the same behavior for completely different reasons.
• 4:33
  Kathie (2): "I'll help you," one person means,"I love you.
• 4:37
  Kathie (2): I have the capacity.
• 4:38
  Kathie (2): I choose to help." Another person may be thinking,"If I don't do this, they're gonna be upset with me." Same words, completely different internal experience.
• 4:50
  Kathie (2): That's why we observe patterns instead of judging behaviors.
• 4:55
  Kathie (2): This is where people pleasing becomes especially interesting to me because the clown can be very responsible.
• 5:03
  Kathie (2): They notice things.
• 5:04
  Kathie (2): They anticipate needs.
• 5:05
  Kathie (2): They help.
• 5:06
  Kathie (2): They pay attention.
• 5:07
  Kathie (2): They may be incredibly dependable.
• 5:10
  Kathie (2): Those are strengths.
• 5:11
  Kathie (2): But under pressure, responsibility can cross a line into over-responsibility, and the line can be very subtle.
• 5:22
  Kathie (2): Someone is disappointed.
• 5:23
  Kathie (2): That's their emotion.
• 5:25
  Kathie (2): I notice their disappointment.
• 5:27
  Kathie (2): That's awareness.
• 5:28
  Kathie (2): I immediately decide I must make their disappointment disappear.
• 5:33
  Kathie (2): That's where over-responsibility may begin.
• 5:37
  Kathie (2): Someone misunderstands me.
• 5:38
  Kathie (2): I can clarify myself.
• 5:40
  Kathie (2): That's mine.
• 5:42
  Kathie (2): But can I control what they ultimately decide to believe about me?
• 5:47
  Kathie (2): Nope.
• 5:48
  Kathie (2): Someone doesn't like my decision.
• 5:51
  Kathie (2): I can listen.
• 5:52
  Kathie (2): I can consider their perspective.
• 5:54
  Kathie (2): I can examine my behavior.
• 5:56
  Kathie (2): I can apologize if an apology is warranted.
• 6:00
  Kathie (2): That's responsibility.
• 6:02
  Kathie (2): But making it my job to ensure they approve of my decision, that is something else.
• 6:08
  Kathie (2): The clown gets exhausted because eventually the clown isn't just carrying their own emotional experience.
• 6:15
  Kathie (2): They're trying to carry everybody else's, too.
• 6:19
  Kathie (2): Now imagine this inside a company.
• 6:22
  Kathie (2): You're sitting in a meeting.
• 6:23
  Kathie (2): Everyone is overloaded.
• 6:24
  Kathie (2): Your leader says,"We need somebody to take this project." Silence.
• 6:29
  Kathie (2): You feel the tension.
• 6:30
  Kathie (2): You look around.
• 6:31
  Kathie (2): Nobody volunteers.
• 6:32
  Kathie (2): And before you've even considered your own workload,"I'll do it." And the room relaxes.
• 6:39
  Kathie (2): Great.
• 6:40
  Kathie (2): Problem solved.
• 6:41
  Kathie (2): Except the problem didn't disappear.
• 6:44
  Kathie (2): It moved onto your desk.
• 6:48
  Kathie (2): Now you're staying late, you're frustrated, you're overwhelmed, and eventually,"Why am I always the one who has to do everything?" That's where radical responsibility becomes incredibly useful.
• 7:00
  Kathie (2): Not,"This is all my fault." That's not radical responsibility.
• 7:05
  Kathie (2): And it's certainly not,"Everything is my responsibility." That is over-responsibility.
• 7:13
  Kathie (2): Radical responsibility asks,"What actually belongs to me here?" Maybe your workload really is unreasonable.
• 7:21
  Kathie (2): Maybe your organization has serious leadership problems.
• 7:24
  Kathie (2): Maybe other people are not contributing.
• 7:27
  Kathie (2): Those things can all be true, and maybe you also volunteered.
• 7:32
  Kathie (2): That can be true, too.
• 7:33
  Kathie (2): Radical responsibility does not require a villain.
• 7:37
  Kathie (2): It simply asks us to see our part clearly.
• 7:42
  Kathie (2): Now take this into leadership.
• 7:44
  Kathie (2): A CEO proposes an acquisition.
• 7:46
  Kathie (2): Everyone around the table is excited.
• 7:48
  Kathie (2): The numbers look good.
• 7:49
  Kathie (2): Momentum is building, but one executive notices something.
• 7:53
  Kathie (2): Something doesn't feel right.
• 7:55
  Kathie (2): Maybe it's a leadership dynamic.
• 7:57
  Kathie (2): Maybe it's a cultural issue.
• 7:59
  Kathie (2): Maybe it's an unrealistic assumption.
• 8:02
  Kathie (2): Maybe it's simply a question nobody has asked, but they stay quiet.
• 8:08
  Kathie (2): Why?
• 8:09
  Kathie (2): We don't know, and I want to emphasize that.
• 8:12
  Kathie (2): We do not know.
• 8:14
  Kathie (2): Maybe they need more information.
• 8:16
  Kathie (2): Maybe they're uncertain.
• 8:17
  Kathie (2): Maybe they don't feel safe.
• 8:19
  Kathie (2): Maybe they don't want to challenge the CEO.
• 8:22
  Kathie (2): Maybe they don't want to be seen as difficult.
• 8:26
  Kathie (2): We cannot know another person's internal motivation, but we can observe what happened.
• 8:32
  Kathie (2): Important information never entered the room.
• 8:36
  Kathie (2): That's human risk because sometimes the most valuable person at the table is the person willing to make the room uncomfortable.
• 8:45
  Kathie (2): "I don't agree.
• 8:47
  Kathie (2): I think we're missing something.
• 8:48
  Kathie (2): I have a concern.
• 8:49
  Kathie (2): Can we slow down?" Those sentences require courage, and sometimes leadership isn't about maintaining harmony.
• 8:58
  Kathie (2): It's about having enough presence to tolerate tension.
• 9:03
  Kathie (2): The same thing happens in relationships.
• 9:05
  Kathie (2): Where do you want to eat?
• 9:07
  Kathie (2): I don't care, but you do.
• 9:09
  Kathie (2): Do you mind if we do this?
• 9:11
  Kathie (2): No, it's fine, but it isn't.
• 9:14
  Kathie (2): Can you handle this?
• 9:16
  Kathie (2): Sure, but you're already exhausted.
• 9:19
  Kathie (2): Then resentment appears, and resentment can be useful information.
• 9:25
  Kathie (2): Not proof.
• 9:26
  Kathie (2): Information.
• 9:27
  Kathie (2): It may be worth asking,"Did I agree to something I didn't actually want?" Because sometimes we're furious that somebody crossed a boundary we never communicated.
• 9:37
  Kathie (2): They should know.
• 9:39
  Kathie (2): Maybe.
• 9:40
  Kathie (2): But did we tell them?
• 9:42
  Kathie (2): That's where radical responsibility comes back.
• 9:45
  Kathie (2): Not blame.
• 9:46
  Kathie (2): Observation.
• 9:47
  Kathie (2): And here's where people pleasing gets even more interesting.
• 9:52
  Kathie (2): Because sometimes the clown leaves the circus and walks straight into the courtroom.
• 9:57
  Kathie (2): I know this courtroom very well.
• 9:59
  Kathie (2): Something happens, somebody misunderstands you, somebody doesn't respond the way you expected.
• 10:05
  Kathie (2): Somebody thinks something about you that you believe is unfair.
• 10:09
  Kathie (2): And suddenly court is in session.
• 10:11
  Kathie (2): You become the attorney, you become the witness, you become the judge.
• 10:15
  Kathie (2): You present exhibit A, then exhibit B.
• 10:18
  Kathie (2): You replay the conversation.
• 10:20
  Kathie (2): You explain what you meant.
• 10:21
  Kathie (2): You prove why you were right.
• 10:23
  Kathie (2): You imagine what they're saying.
• 10:25
  Kathie (2): Then you defend yourself against the imaginary thing you imagined them saying, and sometimes they're not even in the room.
• 10:34
  Kathie (2): You're holding court all by yourself.
• 10:39
  Kathie (2): That is freaking exhausting.
• 10:42
  Kathie (2): I have done this, and I have learned that I can create tremendous anxiety for myself by holding court for other people and even holding court against myself.
• 10:54
  Kathie (2): Because underneath all of that arguing can be attachment.
• 10:59
  Kathie (2): I need you to understand me.
• 11:01
  Kathie (2): I need you to agree with me.
• 11:02
  Kathie (2): I need you to know I'm a good person.
• 11:05
  Kathie (2): I need to prove I didn't do anything wrong.
• 11:09
  Kathie (2): But do I?
• 11:10
  Kathie (2): Hmm, interesting question.
• 11:12
  Kathie (2): And this is where one of the foundational principles of my work enters the conversation, non-attachment.
• 11:19
  Kathie (2): Non-attachment does not mean I don't care what anybody thinks.
• 11:23
  Kathie (2): That's another costume.
• 11:25
  Kathie (2): That's the clown taking off the giant red jacket and putting on a leather jacket saying,"I don't need anybody." Still a performance.
• 11:33
  Kathie (2): Non-attachment is quieter.
• 11:34
  Kathie (2): It says,"I will tell the truth.
• 11:37
  Kathie (2): I will behave according to my values.
• 11:39
  Kathie (2): I will take responsibility for what belongs to me, and I will release what does not.
• 11:45
  Kathie (2): You are allowed to misunderstand me.
• 11:47
  Kathie (2): You are allowed to disagree with me.
• 11:48
  Kathie (2): You're allowed to be disappointed.
• 11:50
  Kathie (2): You're allowed to think something about me that I don't like.
• 11:54
  Kathie (2): And I'm allowed to examine myself honestly without putting either one of us on trial.
• 12:00
  Kathie (2): That is freedom.
• 12:02
  Kathie (2): And this is where people-pleasing connects directly to power, presence, and peace.
• 12:08
  Kathie (2): When I'm trying to control what you think about me, I give away power.
• 12:13
  Kathie (2): Your imagined reaction starts determining my behavior.
• 12:16
  Kathie (2): When I'm predicting what you're going to think, replaying yesterday or rehearsing tomorrow, I lose presence.
• 12:24
  Kathie (2): I'm no longer here.
• 12:25
  Kathie (2): I'm in a story, and when I'm carrying your emotions, my emotions, your opinion, my imagined version of your opinion, and the entire courtroom case, there goes peace.
• 12:37
  Kathie (2): Power, presence, peace.
• 12:41
  Kathie (2): People-pleasing can quietly pull us away from all three.
• 12:45
  Kathie (2): And the way back isn't to become harder.
• 12:48
  Kathie (2): It's to become more aware.
• 12:52
  Kathie (2): This is where my three principles come together.
• 12:54
  Kathie (2): Non-attachment, I release my need to control the outcome.
• 12:58
  Kathie (2): Radical responsibility, I identify what actually belongs to me.
• 13:03
  Kathie (2): Not everything, my part.
• 13:06
  Kathie (2): Courage, I allow myself to experience the discomfort that remains because this takes courage.
• 13:13
  Kathie (2): It takes courage to say no when you've spent years saying yes.
• 13:17
  Kathie (2): It takes courage to let somebody misunderstand you.
• 13:20
  Kathie (2): It takes courage to stop explaining.
• 13:22
  Kathie (2): It takes courage to allow someone to be disappointed.
• 13:26
  Kathie (2): It takes courage to leave the courtroom without winning the case, and it takes courage to walk onto the stage without changing your makeup, your costume, your shoes, and your entire performance because you're afraid somebody in the audience might not approve.
• 13:42
  Kathie (2): So how do we practice this?
• 13:46
  Kathie (2): We pause.
• 13:48
  Kathie (2): The clown wants to move fast.
• 13:50
  Kathie (2): Someone's uncomfortable.
• 13:51
  Kathie (2): Fix it.
• 13:52
  Kathie (2): Someone asks, say yes.
• 13:54
  Kathie (2): Someone misunderstands, explain.
• 13:57
  Kathie (2): Someone's disappointed, make them happy.
• 13:59
  Kathie (2): Someone disagrees, defend yourself.
• 14:02
  Kathie (2): Pause.
• 14:04
  Kathie (2): Power in the pause.
• 14:06
  Kathie (2): You don't have to answer immediately.
• 14:09
  Kathie (2): "I need to think about that.""Let me check my schedule.""I'll get back to you." Or sometimes nothing.
• 14:16
  Kathie (2): You don't have to fill every silence.
• 14:18
  Kathie (2): The pause creates enough room for the observer to enter and then ask,"What actually happened?
• 14:25
  Kathie (2): What did I notice in my body?
• 14:27
  Kathie (2): What story did my mind create?
• 14:30
  Kathie (2): What do I need to know for certain?" And maybe one more,"What actually belongs to me?" That's a powerful question.
• 14:39
  Kathie (2): I don't want you to get rid of the clown.
• 14:41
  Kathie (2): The clown has beautiful qualities.
• 14:43
  Kathie (2): The clown notices people.
• 14:45
  Kathie (2): The clown reads the room.
• 14:46
  Kathie (2): The clown brings warmth, humor, empathy, connection, lightness.
• 14:52
  Kathie (2): Those are powerful human qualities.
• 14:54
  Kathie (2): We don't want to destroy these qualities.
• 14:57
  Kathie (2): We want to remove the over-responsibility attached to them.
• 15:01
  Kathie (2): You can notice someone's discomfort without fixing it.
• 15:04
  Kathie (2): You can care without carrying.
• 15:07
  Kathie (2): You can listen without agreeing.
• 15:09
  Kathie (2): You can apologize without collapsing.
• 15:12
  Kathie (2): You can say no without becoming cruel.
• 15:15
  Kathie (2): You can let somebody think whatever they're gonna think, and you can leave the courtroom.
• 15:22
  Kathie (2): No verdict required.
• 15:25
  Kathie (2): So this week, watch.
• 15:27
  Kathie (2): Don't judge.
• 15:27
  Kathie (2): Watch the automatic yes.
• 15:29
  Kathie (2): Watch for the unnecessary apology.
• 15:32
  Kathie (2): Watch for the over-explaining.
• 15:33
  Kathie (2): Watch for the moment you start rehearsing your defense inside the courtroom.
• 15:37
  Kathie (2): Watch for resentment.
• 15:39
  Kathie (2): Watch for the urge to fix somebody else's mood.
• 15:43
  Kathie (2): Watch for the moment you change your metaphorical makeup because you're imagining what the audience might think.
• 15:49
  Kathie (2): And ask,"Is this mine?" If it is, take radical responsibility.
• 15:55
  Kathie (2): If it isn't, practice non-attachment.
• 15:59
  Kathie (2): And if releasing it feels uncomfortable, that's where courage enters.
• 16:03
  Kathie (2): That is how we begin returning to our power, our presence, and our peace.
• 16:09
  Kathie (2): Not by controlling the circus, not by controlling the audience, and certainly not by controlling what everybody else thinks about the clown, but by becoming aware enough to choose who we want to be when pressure enters the ring.
• 16:27
  Kathie (2): Thank you for joining me on this episode of the Kathie Owen Perspective Podcast.
• 16:33
  Kathie (2): I've created a companion blog post for this episode, and I've included bonus resources there to help you explore people-pleasing, over-responsibility, the observer's lens, and these patterns under pressure even more deeply.
• 16:47
  Kathie (2): You'll find that link in the show notes and description below, and on YouTube you'll find it in the first comments.
• 16:54
  Kathie (2): And until next time, remember, you don't have to perform for the room to belong in it.
• 17:00
  Kathie (2): Sometimes your greatest act of courage is taking off the costume, leaving the courtroom, and staying present as yourself.