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EP.84: Breaking Free From Codependency in Love, Life & Business | The Ambitious Podcast · Ambitious Podcast

• 0:00
  I think today is probably going to trigger you, but in the most
• 0:02
  beautiful way possible. The way that I define
• 0:05
  codependency is when you place your worth or your good feelings
• 0:08
  about yourself on someone or something outside of you.
• 0:12
  Society has literally primed us to be codependent.
• 0:16
  Your grades told you how smart you were.
• 0:18
  The amount of money in your bank account told you how successful
• 0:21
  you are as. Soon as you said that my brain
• 0:23
  was going to family approval and like relationships with parents,
• 0:28
  your entire identity being wrapped up into a part and even
• 0:30
  for entrepreneurs, clients, client approval, client
• 0:34
  satisfaction. We go in and say no, I don't
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  need the acknowledgement. That is only invalidating this
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  part of you that does hold the core belief that you do need
• 0:42
  that validation. Without these people or things
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  or jobs or distractions, frankly, I didn't even know what
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  to do with myself. Whatever you don't look at,
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  whatever remains unconscious, will silently run your life.
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  So stay curious, stay willing to see the scary messy part, and
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  stay compassionate and hold yourself in grace.
• 1:07
  Hello and welcome back to Ambitious.
• 1:09
  We are talking with an incredible guest today.
• 1:11
  I could not be more excited for you to dive into today's episode
• 1:14
  because honestly, I think today is probably going to trigger
• 1:17
  you, but in the most beautiful way possible.
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  And while I know that that probably sounds dramatic, this
• 1:23
  conversation is going to hold a mirror up for you.
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  It's going to help you to really have an awareness and look at
• 1:28
  parts of your life and the relationships within it in a
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  very critical way. It may just be the thing that
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  you need to hear for some of the relationships, friendships and
• 1:37
  maybe even business relationships that you have in
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  front of you right now. So I want to talk a little bit
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  today about our incredible guest, Alyssa Zander.
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  Alyssa Zander is completely redefining what exactly
• 1:47
  codependency actually means. She is a codependency expert.
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  She's a host of a top 100 relationship podcast called The
• 1:54
  Codependency Alchemy, and she's an author who helps people break
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  free from patterns that keep them stuck in exhausting cycles
• 2:02
  of people pleasing and external validation.
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  But she's most powerful in her work because she connects
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  codependency to the mother wound that shows us that this isn't
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  just really a relationship about addiction, but it's actually
• 2:13
  about placing your worth and your value in someone else or
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  something else outside of yourself.
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  So we talk so much about so many incredible things today, why
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  codependency isn't actually about having an addictive
• 2:27
  relationship, but it's about when you place your worth in
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  something outside of yourself. She will talk about the vessel
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  analogy that will completely change how you see your
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  relationships and why you never feel full enough from your
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  partner's love, and how unconsciously you're critiquing
• 2:41
  every gesture to keep a dopamine cycle going.
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  How to identify codependent patterns in your business
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  through resentment, boundary issues, and the exhausting need
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  to answer client messages within 5 seconds and also spoiler you
• 2:54
  may be the reason that you're limiting their growth.
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  She'll also explain her shadow work framework that traces your
• 2:59
  triggers back to core wounds of abandonment, rejection, and
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  betrayal, and why she says whatever you don't look at will
• 3:05
  silently run your life. She also unpacks the pattern
• 3:08
  tracking method using physical sensations to help you to
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  understand boundaries in real time, especially within family
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  dynamics. And why Saying I just want him
• 3:19
  to know instead of directly asking for what you need in your
• 3:23
  relationship is actually avoiding responsibility and
• 3:25
  keeping you stuck in mind reading expectations.
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  It's one of those episodes where you feel like you're going to
• 3:32
  get called out but you get a new way of living, but you get a
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  whole other dose of love and validation you needed all
• 3:39
  wrapped in one. This completely rewrote my
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  beliefs around codependency and what it means, what it looks
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  like in life, in business, romantic relationships, family
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  relationships. There's so much in today's
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  episode, so without further ado, let's get into it.
• 4:03
  All righty, you guys. Welcome back to Ambitious.
• 4:05
  I am so excited. We were just chatting before we
• 4:07
  hit record and I was just saying how much I feel like you're
• 4:10
  going to be triggered in like the most beautiful way by
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  today's topic. I am so excited to be joined by
• 4:16
  Alyssa today because we're going to both be diving into all
• 4:19
  things codependency. So, Alyssa, welcome to
• 4:21
  Ambitious. Thank you so much for having me.
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  Yes, I hope it's like the most gentle hug of a trigger for
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  everyone. Well, I feel like sometimes, at
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  least for my I can speak for myself, sometimes I'm like, oh,
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  I don't need that or that's not me.
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  And then someone dives into it and I go, oh, OK, never mind,
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  I'm listening. You got me.
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  So I think today's going to be one of those.
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  But if someone's obviously listening, they might have even
• 4:45
  seen the title and thought to themselves, OK, well, like, I
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  don't know if codependency, this is me.
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  You have like lived and breathed this work deeply and still do
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  every single day. You've got a book, you've got a
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  podcast, you've got programs. Tell us a little bit for someone
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  who's listening. Obviously you have so much
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  experience in this. First, tell us a little bit if
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  someone's not familiar with you. And then also like if they're
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  kind of maybe not totally sold that they might need to listen
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  today, why today in your experience is most likely
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  exactly what they need to be listening to?
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  OK, so I think the thing that absolutely changed it for me,
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  and I think what also magnetized a lot of people to my work was
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  me redefining what codependency actually means.
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  Because I think my stigma, I'll speak for myself, was that
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  codependency is when you are struggling in a relationship
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  with someone who has addiction, right?
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  And that has never been the case for me in any of my
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  relationships. So I immediately just was like,
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  that's not me, right? Like I'm not codependent because
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  I'm not in a relationship with someone who struggles with
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  addiction. And that couldn't be further
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  from the truth. And the way that I define
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  codependency is when you place your worth or your good feelings
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  about yourself on someone or something outside of you.
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  So just take a moment to like, really let that sink in.
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  Because if you think about society, society has literally
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  primed us to be codependent. Society has primed from
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  education, right? Your grades told you how smart
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  you were. The amount of money in your bank
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  account told you how successful you are.
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  Your job title told you like, how prestigious you are, right?
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  Or your accolades, right? We base our worth on those
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  things. We seek them out because they
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  then mean something about us. And so we attach our happiness
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  to it. We attach our belonging to it.
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  We attach, catch our good feelings about ourself to it.
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  And this goes to relationships too, which is, you know, where
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  codependency I think comes up the most.
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  It's our attachments to anything and everything.
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  What attachment do we have to this thing, to being a
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  homeowner, to being married, to being a mother?
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  And it's unraveling from those attachments.
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  I feel like as soon as you said that, my brain was going to
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  family approval and like relationships with parents.
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  I can see with a partner, your entire identity being wrapped up
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  into a partner. And even for entrepreneurs, I'm
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  thinking clients, client approval, client satisfaction,
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  client results. Like if the clients are happy,
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  I'm happy versus just being happy regardless.
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  So, so interesting. OK, obviously you have dove into
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  this for a while now. How did you get into this work?
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  What kind of sparked, you know, going down this journey and
• 7:33
  diving into codependency? It's a real dark story all.
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  It was me in the middle of a breakup, actually with the
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  person who I'm actually currently in a relationship
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  with. So it's a little success story,
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  right? But yeah, we were together for 4
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  1/2 years and we broke up. And it was one of those, you
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  know what they call the dark night of the soul, except it was
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  like way more than a night. And it lasted what seemed like
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  forever. And it took me being out of that
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  relationship and seeing how he was not in a relationship with
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  me. And it was like night and day.
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  I saw what went from someone who was depressed, didn't want to do
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  anything, didn't want to see anyone, didn't want to talk
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  about any, like someone who is very, very much in this, like,
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  deep, dark hole while he was in a relationship with me.
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  And then outside the relationship, he's traveling,
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  he's going out, he's hanging out with friends.
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  He's like this bubbly persona. And we were friends before we
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  dated. So we had the same friend group.
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  And even though we didn't spend a lot of time together, I still
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  saw him. Yeah.
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  In the general, you know, we're kind of in a small town, so
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  it's, it was easy to run into each other.
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  Yeah. And I was like, what the fuck?
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  Like what is going on? Like he is everything I wanted
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  him to be in the relationship, but now he is that outside of
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  the relationship. And I mean, I guess just call
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  it, you know, by the hand of the universe.
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  There was a a curiosity that was peaked where I asked, could this
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  actually been a me thing? You know, because I was so
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  convinced it was a him thing. I was so convinced our entire
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  relationship, all the problems were because he didn't show up.
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  He wasn't supporting me. He wasn't helping with the
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  dishes. He wasn't doing this, He wasn't
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  doing that. He wasn't doing, you know, yoga
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  or meditating like I was right. And so I was convinced that he
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  was the problem. Which I feel like is also very
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  much a narrative to when relationships don't work,
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  everyone is the first opportunity to point the finger
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  to it has to be somebody. It can't be me.
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  So I feel like that also says a lot about you to be like, OK,
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  mirror back on myself. What's here?
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  Interesting. OK.
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  And so obviously you go through this and that kind of led you.
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  I love that word of curiosity. I'm obsessed with it.
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  You got curious about what could be kind of like the underneath
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  of how it evolved. Yeah, I, I saw a pattern.
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  I would be in a long relationship with someone, they
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  would lose that spark within them.
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  We would break up, and then I would immediately try to find
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  somebody else to be in a relationship with.
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  And so I was like, OK, well, if I'm the common denominator in
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  this pattern that continues to play out, I get into a
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  relationship with someone who's really bright, really bubbly,
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  really out there, they end up getting really dark.
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  We break up. And I was like, OK, well, what's
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  my role in this? And I realized that I never
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  really asked myself that question.
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  And that's where I started seeing codependency.
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  It was honestly a word that just kept popping up around me for
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  whatever reason. I didn't even have social media
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  at the time. OK, so this was like 2019.
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  I didn't have social media for like 3 years of my life and it
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  was great. Which is hilarious now because
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  my business is yeah, solely run on social media.
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  That's also. That that holds so much.
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  That's so important. You say that, though, because
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  like, I feel like when you see things now, like a TikTok
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  algorithm, it just sends it to you.
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  So it's not quite as much a sign as in, like, for example, for
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  you not being on social and seeing it everywhere.
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  So it must have landed. That would make sense, yeah.
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  Yeah, it was like I was hearing it.
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  I was seeing it and I had this journal that I had got at the
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  time, and I wrote on the very, very first page, codependency.
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  And I was like, I don't know what the fuck this word means,
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  but I'm seeing it everywhere. Yeah, it was literally just a
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  sign. It was just like I had
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  basically, a few months prior been like, I'm ready to step
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  into my sole purpose, my soul's mission, what I'm here to do on
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  the earth in this lifetime. And my whole life fell apart,
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  and I saw my codependent patterns, and now that's the
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  work that I do. So it was quite literally like
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  AI was, yeah. Click into place, you know?
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  Yeah. And also like I, I do think that
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  like, you know, obviously it's that classic quote, everything
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  happens for a reason, but obviously it's the work that you
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  do now. So like in some roundabout way,
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  this was also like a catalyst for your career in a way that if
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  it hadn't happened, you wouldn't have found it, which means you
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  wouldn't have dove into the work.
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  So it's kind of like you said, it is a beautiful success story
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  at the end of the day. Obviously at the end of the
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  process, you know, we were talking before we hit record
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  guys and we were talking a little bit about, you know, the
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  definition of codependency. And I think for me, I'll be
• 12:28
  honest, I wouldn't say that I'm super educated on it, which is
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  why even for me, like as a fellow listening to you speak
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  today, I'm nerding out because I'm OK.
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  I want to learn all of the things.
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  And you said like putting basically your value in another
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  person thing, something basically outside of yourself.
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  So if someone is like, OK, like maybe like you, they're like, do
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  I have some traits of this? Do I have some awareness of like
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  maybe this is me? Are there things that you saw in
• 12:56
  yourself when you went in Word or that you may be even seeing
• 12:58
  clients that you feel like are kind of indicators, signs or
• 13:01
  symptoms of someone who might be kind of experiencing A
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  codependent dynamic? Absolutely.
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  I think some key indicators to help show you that you may have
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  some codependency is wherever you are feeling resentful
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  because that means you are doing something outside of your own
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  intrinsic boundaries and you're overriding them.
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  So like resentment is a really good indicator to show where
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  you're struggling with boundaries.
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  And if you're struggling with boundaries, it's usually because
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  you have a story that you tell yourself about why you can't
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  have them. So that's one of my big ones.
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  Another one is intrusive thoughts or negative feedback
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  loops. So this is where you replay like
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  the absolute worst case scenario.
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  It's where you fixate on your partner cheating on you and you
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  can't get over it. And it's just this thought that
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  comes in and in and in. It's usually being triggered
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  because we have a deep seated fear of abandonment, rejection
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  or betrayal that is the root of codependency.
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  The root of codependency is our fear of abandonment, our fear of
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  rejection and our fear of betrayal.
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  And it ends up being the thing that fuels us to trying to
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  control our external reality, whether that's your business,
• 14:21
  your clients journey, your relationship, your friendships,
• 14:24
  your relationship with your family.
• 14:27
  OK, so I feel like my brain is going in all the ways this could
• 14:30
  look for you. Let's just say, let's take
• 14:32
  bucket #1 maybe like with family, what might be a way or a
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  situation that you might think of that maybe someone might see
• 14:40
  this dynamic happening like a family dynamic with with
• 14:43
  themselves. Yeah, For me, how it showed up
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  was like needing to protect my mom.
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  So I wouldn't say what I was feeling or I wouldn't speak my
• 14:53
  truth because I had a fear that I was going to upset her, that I
• 14:57
  was going to hurt her feelings, that she would feel guilt, that
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  she would feel bad. So in order to protect her from
• 15:02
  feeling any of those things, I would like shove my truth deep
• 15:06
  down into the abyss of my soul. Right.
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  And The thing is, is when we talk about our mothers, which is
• 15:13
  ultimately where a lot of our codependency can come from, is
• 15:17
  it's the mother wound. It's where we judge, we isolate,
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  we compare ourselves to others. That's how I define the mother
• 15:24
  wound, which is what my book is. It's healing the mother wound,
• 15:27
  and I directly correlate the mother wound with codependency.
• 15:30
  It does not mean that your mother was unloving or unkind.
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  Right? Like, I have one of the most
• 15:36
  beautiful relationships with my mom, and I also have this
• 15:41
  dysfunctional dynamic with her where I overcompensate so that
• 15:45
  she doesn't have to feel upset. The thing I so resonate with
• 15:49
  that it was actually a piece of feedback that I got from someone
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  this year and I went through kind of like the ending of a
• 15:55
  very long term relationship this year.
• 15:56
  And I had been diving a lot and it's just like better
• 15:58
  understanding myself. Like you said, I love where you
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  said like it maybe there's a pattern here.
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  Something I always talk about is like, if it's a pattern, it's a
• 16:05
  problem. And so I'm like anywhere I see
• 16:06
  patterns in my life, I'm like, got to dive in.
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  There's something happening there.
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  And someone had come to me and they said, you know what you
• 16:14
  think is serving someone is actually just self sacrificial.
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  And like even like you're saying of like, I don't want to upset
• 16:22
  somebody. I don't kind of like want to
• 16:23
  rock the boat. I'm just trying to keep
• 16:25
  everything even keel. I have done that in so many
• 16:29
  dynamics with friends, family, partners, all in this like true
• 16:34
  genuine belief that it was like serving them by just letting me
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  burden whatever the weight was the moment it could be a
• 16:41
  decision, it could be anything. And even as you're saying that I
• 16:46
  was also, though secretly a little bit resentful of it, even
• 16:49
  though I would do it time and time again, I was still always
• 16:52
  resentful. And I remember someone saying to
• 16:53
  me like, it's not sacrifice, it's self sacrifice.
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  So like you're literally giving up yourself in the pursuit of
• 17:00
  trying to make somebody else happy.
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  So I very, very much resonate with that.
• 17:04
  And I also feel like you must see this even there's family,
• 17:08
  but also in friend dynamics as well.
• 17:11
  Yeah. And we, we basically
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  codependency is so sneaky because it's wrapped in this
• 17:17
  beautiful present like gold wrapping paper with a bow.
• 17:20
  And we cast it off as nice. I'm being nice, right?
• 17:24
  But something I say to all my clients is it's not nice if
• 17:29
  someone else ends up being the villain in your.
• 17:31
  Story OK, right. Like if you end up being the
• 17:36
  victim in some way, right? Like you don't have time now
• 17:40
  because you said yes to the thing that they asked and now
• 17:43
  they get to be this perpetrator basically in a, in a way that's
• 17:48
  not nice. Really, if it's if it means well
• 17:52
  for someone else, but it takes from you in order to do it,
• 17:55
  there's something to dive into. Yeah, absolutely, though and and
• 18:00
  so often what I'll get asked is, OK, well, how do I know if I'm
• 18:03
  doing it from like genuine kindness or if it's me just
• 18:09
  unconsciously playing out this core wound of wanting to be
• 18:13
  liked or wanting to be quote UN quote nice.
• 18:16
  And the way that I communicate that difference or that
• 18:20
  discernment is if they didn't praise you, if they didn't
• 18:26
  validate you, if they didn't acknowledge you, if you got
• 18:28
  nothing, absolutely nothing, if no one even knew you did it,
• 18:32
  would you still do it? And when you ask that question
• 18:38
  to people, what do people typically respond with?
• 18:41
  Well, I'll tell you what I did. I have responded with, yeah, I
• 18:45
  would still totally do it. And then when they don't
• 18:49
  acknowledge me, I feel resentful.
• 18:51
  And then it's just those moments of reality checking yourself.
• 18:55
  And it's, it doesn't mean that we're wrong or bad because your
• 18:59
  brain tricked you or your ego tricked you into thinking that
• 19:02
  it was genuine kindness. But just notice and like we
• 19:06
  already mentioned, pattern track.
• 19:08
  That's how you get out of codependent dynamics is you
• 19:11
  pattern track every time you ask yourself that question, but then
• 19:15
  you feel resentful. You need to track that shit.
• 19:19
  Every time. I say that I am doing this from
• 19:22
  a genuinely kind place. I don't need acknowledgement,
• 19:24
  but then when I don't get acknowledgement, I feel some
• 19:26
  type of way about it. You need to write that shit down
• 19:28
  because the only way that we get out of it is by taking
• 19:31
  accountability and responsibility for ourselves.
• 19:35
  Well, I think so many times, at least in my opinion, so many
• 19:38
  times we say things to ourselves, at least I feel like
• 19:41
  I've done this. So I'll speak for myself.
• 19:43
  I think I say things to myself to almost make myself believe it
• 19:47
  or make myself tune into the feeling.
• 19:49
  So like to your point, if you do something kind for someone and
• 19:52
  you're like, I don't need acknowledgement.
• 19:53
  I'm just doing it like the goodness of my heart and then
• 19:55
  they don't acknowledge it. You're kind of resentful.
• 19:57
  You say it to yourself like I don't need acknowledgement.
• 19:59
  You're trying to like program your own mind to convince
• 20:03
  yourself that whatever you're thinking is true for you.
• 20:07
  But really from what I'm hearing from you is like your.
• 20:10
  Feeling around a dynamic with someone else is going to be all
• 20:14
  of the compass that you need to really know whether it's quote
• 20:17
  UN quote healthy. 1000% And that thing that you were mentioning,
• 20:21
  we go in and say no, I don't need the acknowledgement after
• 20:24
  we already felt that resentment. That is only invalidating this
• 20:28
  part of you that does hold the core belief that you do need
• 20:32
  that validation. And when we don't just
• 20:36
  acknowledge, I actually wanted acknowledgement from that, it
• 20:39
  actually was important to me to be seen in that that was
• 20:43
  actually something that I really desired or needed.
• 20:46
  When we don't say that to ourselves, what we end up doing
• 20:50
  is watching it basically get louder and louder in every
• 20:54
  situation that follows because it compounds and then it
• 20:59
  compounds and then it compounds. And that's why you see these
• 21:01
  marriages that end or these relationships that end.
• 21:04
  They've been together for 30 years, and they just now realize
• 21:08
  they were in a codependent dynamic.
• 21:10
  But when he asked, you know, when was the last time you felt
• 21:12
  happy or fulfilled in it? They're like, they can't even
• 21:15
  tell you. It's just been so compounded.
• 21:18
  And they were so attached to it working out that they lost sight
• 21:23
  of what was really important to them.
• 21:27
  This honestly lands so much because I'm thinking of a bunch
• 21:30
  of different friends, even peers that have been in situations
• 21:35
  where they made how they felt kind of wrong and instead tried
• 21:41
  to use language to be like, well, like, for example, I know
• 21:44
  somebody was in a relationship and they didn't have a lot of
• 21:46
  physical touch in their relationship.
• 21:47
  It wasn't like his specific love language and she had gone to him
• 21:52
  about it. And then the conversations I saw
• 21:54
  very quickly transferred to like, it's not a big deal.
• 21:56
  Like I don't really care. And it's really interesting
• 21:59
  because when people, even as a coach, different setting,
• 22:02
  obviously different topic, but when people vocalize what they
• 22:05
  don't care about, it's one of the fastest ways to really
• 22:10
  easily, to your point, distinguish what someone
• 22:12
  actually does care about because it's usually verbiage they're
• 22:15
  using to try to convince themselves to get onto the same
• 22:18
  wavelength. And I love that you said, you
• 22:21
  know, it's just going to get louder and louder because the
• 22:24
  end of the day, like it's it literally in your subconscious
• 22:27
  to want whatever it is that you're wanting or to want to be
• 22:29
  validated or to want to be seen. And yet when you don't do that,
• 22:34
  it just literally is going to increase it until it completes
• 22:36
  itself because that's how your brain is designed.
• 22:38
  So I love that. I love that.
• 22:40
  And obviously the most common that codependency is understood
• 22:44
  or I feel like studied or discussed is in relationships,
• 22:48
  like romantic relationships. And so like, I'm curious, maybe
• 22:52
  for yourself or for people you've worked with, what are
• 22:54
  some situations or things that you usually see of like
• 22:57
  behaviors that might be specific to a romantic relationship?
• 23:01
  It pertains to codependency. Yeah, I'll, I'm going to go
• 23:06
  ahead and give an analogy actually, because I feel like
• 23:08
  this is going. Love analogies, so I'm here.
• 23:10
  Yeah, OK, perfect. I just feel like the visual of
• 23:14
  this, even if you're just picturing it in your mind, can
• 23:16
  be really helpful because it is so nuanced.
• 23:19
  It could be anything. It could be like him picking up
• 23:22
  this tissue off my desk. I'm making mean something,
• 23:24
  right? Or not.
• 23:26
  So the way that I describe codependency is you want to
• 23:28
  imagine a vessel, like an empty vessel and this center of your
• 23:32
  heart space, OK, I have a vessel, my partner has a vessel.
• 23:38
  Imagine like a clear glass, OK? When we are in a codependent
• 23:42
  dynamic, what we're trying to do is we're trying to get that
• 23:46
  empty feeling to feel full. And so I want or need my partner
• 23:51
  to tell me he loves me, to tell me that he's never going to
• 23:54
  leave me to, you know, rub my feet to pick up dinner, to ask
• 24:00
  what I want for dinner. Like it could be all of these
• 24:03
  things. Basically anything that is an
• 24:06
  external validation, praise, like whatever that is for you.
• 24:12
  OK. And so when I ask for it or when
• 24:15
  I want it or when I guilt him for not doing it, which is
• 24:18
  usually what we end up doing because we don't feel safe to
• 24:20
  just ask for what we want, right?
• 24:23
  A very common codependent thought pattern is, well, I
• 24:26
  don't want to tell him that I want him to do the.
• 24:29
  I just want him to know. I just want him to know I just
• 24:32
  want him to do it. But really what you're saying is
• 24:36
  I don't think that what I want and need is important and I
• 24:40
  don't feel like I can ask for that.
• 24:43
  And I'm so terrified of rejection I would prefer not to
• 24:47
  ask. It's really just putting off
• 24:50
  responsibility. I don't actually want to take
• 24:54
  responsibility for articulating and communicating what I want
• 24:57
  and need. I want him to read my mind, but
• 25:01
  for anyone listening, this is probably going to be the
• 25:03
  triggering thing, reading somebody else's mind and the
• 25:05
  reason why we do this. I'm totally getting away from
• 25:07
  the analogy, but this is important.
• 25:09
  We, if we're in a codependent dynamic and we tend to be
• 25:13
  codependent, we have learned how to perceive the needs of others.
• 25:18
  It's like our superpower or we feel like it's our superpower.
• 25:22
  I can sense when someone's off and might need a little extra
• 25:26
  support. I can sense when my partner's in
• 25:28
  a mood and I know that making this dish is going to like boost
• 25:32
  his mood or whatever, or like make him feel loved.
• 25:36
  And so because we have this, it's actually a trauma response.
• 25:42
  Because we have this trauma response, we want our partners
• 25:46
  to perceive our needs, but all that's doing is actually
• 25:49
  creating more dysfunction in our relationship.
• 25:52
  It's actually a good thing that they don't perceive our needs.
• 25:55
  And it's not because you feel like people who are in
• 25:58
  codependent dynamics need to kind of practice and like flex
• 26:01
  that muscle of being able to communicate needs. 1000% 1000
• 26:07
  And so that's why I always say like, start with like the the
• 26:10
  low risk things, you know, it's one the things that feel like
• 26:15
  not so scary. Like maybe you say where you do
• 26:18
  actually want to have dinner for the date night, you know,
• 26:21
  instead of being like, well, where do you want to go?
• 26:25
  Just assert like, oh, I actually want pizza tonight, You know,
• 26:28
  whatever feels like a low a low barrier, you know, low risk
• 26:31
  barrier. But back to the analogy.
• 26:33
  So codependency is just, I, I want that validation, I want
• 26:37
  that praise. I want him to know what I want
• 26:40
  and, and do it. And then when it comes in, it
• 26:43
  fills that vessel. And then we get like all these
• 26:46
  dopamine hits. So imagine something like coming
• 26:49
  through and just hitting all these dopamine receptors and you
• 26:51
  feel like so good and you feel loved and you feel seen because
• 26:55
  he did the dishes. We'll use that as an example
• 26:57
  because that was a big one in my house.
• 26:58
  OK, he did the dishes, I feel good, I feel seen, I feel loved.
• 27:02
  But then when I go and open the dishwasher, I'm like, oh God,
• 27:06
  why did he put the bowls? And they're like that?
• 27:07
  Like they're not even going to get washed when you put like,
• 27:10
  then I basically have to go in and like redo it.
• 27:13
  This is because if I actually allowed myself to be filled,
• 27:17
  then I wouldn't need him anymore.
• 27:20
  And that feels scary. And then he wouldn't need me
• 27:22
  anymore. So now I need to critique it.
• 27:25
  So the way he said I love you, well, you said it in this weird
• 27:29
  tone, You know, the way he did the dishes.
• 27:32
  Well, you didn't put the dishes in very well.
• 27:34
  Like we're we're completely insatiable, right?
• 27:37
  Because it goes right out the bottom of the vessel.
• 27:40
  So we find a way, we feel good for a second, but then we find a
• 27:43
  way to critique it, which is that love that pouring in goes
• 27:47
  right out the bottom and then we're stuck needing it again.
• 27:51
  Why I need you to say in this tone, that's why whatever you
• 27:53
  want from your partner, it, it doesn't feel like enough.
• 27:56
  It doesn't feel like enough. It doesn't feel like enough.
• 27:59
  You're in a codependent dynamic, and it doesn't mean that there's
• 28:02
  anything. Triggering for me in a in a
• 28:05
  thought. I'm thinking instantly, and I
• 28:07
  feel like I have had experience with this, but also peers and
• 28:10
  friends have where you almost create problems to create an
• 28:14
  opportunity to your point to empty that and fill it, empty
• 28:18
  that and fill it. Like I'm thinking, I have seen
• 28:21
  people who from what I know of their dynamic, we're in like
• 28:23
  such healthy relationships, but one person always found a reason
• 28:28
  to kind of like go back to that conversation, to your point.
• 28:31
  So with a codependent dynamic, would it be fair to say that
• 28:35
  sometimes if you kind of crave that dopamine hit that you
• 28:38
  create them? 1000% OK, right.
• 28:42
  And, and The thing is, is that we're doing it unconsciously.
• 28:45
  Like we don't realize that we're doing it right, right.
• 28:50
  And that's what I was going to finish with is like, it doesn't
• 28:53
  mean that you're broken and it doesn't mean that there's
• 28:54
  anything wrong with you. It's just that this is the
• 28:58
  pattern that has been normalized for you.
• 29:01
  It's probably a pattern that you witnessed growing up.
• 29:04
  It's probably a pattern that you developed when you're a lot
• 29:07
  younger than you are now. So just like holding that
• 29:10
  compassion for yourself, because that's the slippery slope with
• 29:14
  starting to become more aware of codependency is that we start
• 29:19
  basically putting on layers of shame and guilt, which just make
• 29:24
  us feel even worse about ourselves, which make us more
• 29:27
  thirsty for that validation, right?
• 29:30
  So we want to be really mindful that there's going to be that
• 29:33
  part of us that wants to make us feel like absolute shit, but
• 29:37
  that's just going to perpetuate the patterns tenfold.
• 29:40
  Like what we need is like compassion and grace.
• 29:43
  I can see why I created this pattern.
• 29:46
  This pattern was created in a time that I absolutely needed it
• 29:49
  and it kept me safe. And that was probably before you
• 29:52
  even have memories, right? It probably happened in the
• 29:55
  first six years of your life. I feel like this is so layered
• 30:00
  because I'm thinking like you've mentioned there is childhood.
• 30:03
  I'm also hearing boundaries, probably an aspect of people
• 30:06
  pleasing and I'm wondering even maybe like attachment styles.
• 30:10
  So like if someone is hearing this and they're thinking, OK,
• 30:13
  there's definitely an aspect here that I resonate with,
• 30:16
  whether it is with, you know, a relationship, romantic
• 30:19
  relationship, a friendship, family, where does it come from?
• 30:23
  Like if someone, I'm assuming the first obviously places
• 30:26
  acknowledgement, but that's OK, great.
• 30:28
  How do we get back to the root? Again, back to your example of
• 30:32
  it's probably happened when you were a child or when you were
• 30:35
  younger or in a situation that you might not correlate directly
• 30:38
  these two events together. What are some of those things
• 30:41
  that someone can dive in to kind of learn about themselves to
• 30:44
  see, OK, well, this is how codependency is showcasing
• 30:47
  itself in my life. Whether it's again, value of
• 30:50
  clients, relationship, family, friends.
• 30:52
  How do we go back to it to kind of understand its source?
• 30:55
  Or is that maybe important or not important in your opinion?
• 30:58
  Yeah. So This is why I created a
• 31:01
  framework, the framework that I use with all my clients and
• 31:04
  myself, like doing this work literally yesterday with myself.
• 31:08
  It's, it's this combination of shadow work and inner child
• 31:11
  healing. I don't think that we need to
• 31:14
  have a specific memory to trace it back to, to alchemize intent
• 31:18
  to this part of us that is maybe stuck in that pattern.
• 31:22
  What I have noticed in my work with clients is that a memory
• 31:25
  usually does come forward and they're always surprised.
• 31:30
  Like if you go to my podcast and listen to any of the sessions,
• 31:33
  almost every single one ends with whoa, I had no idea that
• 31:39
  was there. Whoa, I had no idea that that
• 31:43
  was even like, I would have never attached this me afraid
• 31:48
  that my partner's going to cheat on me to this moment when I was
• 31:52
  in my grandpa's house and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, sitting
• 31:56
  on his couch. You know, So what I do is I lead
• 32:03
  people through shadow work or myself through shadow work
• 32:05
  questions and I can usually like across the board, create a
• 32:11
  prompt for basically anything. It's if blank happens or doesn't
• 32:17
  happen, then what is the fear or what is the story that I'm
• 32:22
  telling about myself, right? If this relationship doesn't
• 32:26
  work out, then what am I afraid will happen?
• 32:29
  I'm afraid that it will mean that I'm going to be alone
• 32:33
  forever. And if I'm alone forever, then
• 32:36
  it means that something was wrong with me.
• 32:38
  If something was wrong with me, then what does that mean?
• 32:41
  It means that I'm broken. If I'm broken then what does
• 32:44
  that mean? That means if I'm unlovable and
• 32:48
  if I'm unlovable like it can go on and on.
• 32:51
  But usually in my work it comes down to like 3 of the same core
• 32:56
  wounds. Fear of failure, fear of being
• 33:00
  alone and like dying, like death.
• 33:04
  Like if this happens, I die or what's the point of living,
• 33:09
  right? It gets really dark.
• 33:10
  Yes, you could say, but it's like when you can see that, you
• 33:14
  start having compassion for the part of yourself that's so
• 33:18
  attached to this relationship working out, right?
• 33:20
  Of course you want this relationship to work out because
• 33:23
  if it doesn't, it means you're a failure, you're broken, you're
• 33:27
  unlovable, da, da, da, all these things.
• 33:30
  And so from that place, I usually will ask someone who I'm
• 33:33
  working with or myself, OK, where does that fear live in my
• 33:36
  body? So we bring in somatic healing
• 33:39
  somatics. Where does that even?
• 33:41
  For anyone who's listening to this, if they're not familiar
• 33:44
  with shadow work or somatic practices, just I'm I'm
• 33:47
  understanding what you're saying, but just for anyone who
• 33:49
  maybe isn't as exposed to this type of work, just a quick
• 33:52
  reference as you're speaking to that for like what that kind of
• 33:55
  means or symbolizes. Yeah.
• 33:57
  So shadow work is becoming aware of something in your psyche that
• 34:03
  is unconscious. So I have an attachment to this
• 34:06
  relationship, but I don't know why I have an attachment to this
• 34:09
  relationship. So shadow work and the questions
• 34:12
  that I was just asked or the prompt that I just gave helps me
• 34:15
  see all the attachments. So what's underneath or what's,
• 34:19
  you know, in the shadows, if you will, behind this relationship
• 34:23
  working. So shadow work is OK, let's
• 34:25
  access parts of our unconscious mind to see all of the the
• 34:30
  burdens and weight that we're placing on this one thing, the
• 34:33
  promotion, the friend not calling you back, being left on
• 34:36
  red. The shadow work is OK.
• 34:39
  What am I attaching meaning to that underneath the surface?
• 34:42
  I know I'm triggered by the, you know, being left on red or my
• 34:47
  friend ghosting me, right? Whatever it is.
• 34:50
  But can I take that trigger and see why it's triggering in the
• 34:54
  1st place? Because all a trigger is, is a
• 35:00
  part of ourselves that is ready to be healed, intended to what I
• 35:05
  see it as. And I love this reframe around
• 35:08
  triggers because I think a lot of people are like, I want to do
• 35:11
  the healing and the inner work so I don't get triggered again,
• 35:14
  right? Like I want a life where I'm not
• 35:16
  triggered, where I really tried to give this other lens where
• 35:22
  like, I'm willing to be triggered if it means if it
• 35:26
  means that I get to see myself more fully and step into a
• 35:31
  deeper level of wholeness, compassion, unconditional love
• 35:36
  for myself. I think triggers are the road
• 35:39
  map to the life that you want because if you ask somebody who
• 35:43
  is, for example, to your point, triggered by being ghosted over
• 35:46
  text message, to live with that forever means you live a very
• 35:50
  different life than to have that happen.
• 35:52
  Say I'm feeling something in my body come up right now or I'm
• 35:55
  feeling something in my mind start swirling or I can't stop
• 35:57
  thinking about XYZ. Why is this bothering me?
• 36:00
  And realizing also the web that is connected to that and other
• 36:04
  things that it's impacting in your life.
• 36:06
  And I had someone who shared with me an analogy about
• 36:08
  triggers and they were talking about like those usually, I
• 36:11
  don't know why it's always like 40 year old men or 50 year old
• 36:13
  men with like that. What is that called that like
• 36:15
  metal detector that they go down, up and down the beach and
• 36:17
  they try to find like, you know, jewelry and whatever.
• 36:20
  And they were saying like, that's basically how triggers
• 36:23
  work. Like they're all hidden and
• 36:24
  buried in the sand. You never know where they are.
• 36:26
  You can't quite place them. But it really is like unlocking
• 36:30
  this like treasure that sits inside of you because once you,
• 36:32
  to your point, flush through that trigger, you start to
• 36:36
  understand yourself and identify with parts of yourself that you
• 36:39
  weren't even aware of until that thing came up.
• 36:42
  And I was even saying before we press record, like how
• 36:45
  indirectly so amazingly beautiful it is even that this
• 36:47
  stemmed from again, a quote UN quote triggering relationship
• 36:51
  that might have happened in that moment.
• 36:53
  And now you guys are happy and you have an incredible brand
• 36:55
  that talks about this and serves people right.
• 36:57
  So like there's so much amazing domino that can happen after the
• 37:01
  trigger itself. So I love that you said that.
• 37:03
  I so agree. Yeah, I mean, when I was in that
• 37:06
  dark night of the soul time period of us not being together,
• 37:10
  I was triggered every single second of every single day.
• 37:13
  Like, and it wasn't just in regards to him, it was in
• 37:17
  regards to every aspect of my life.
• 37:20
  I felt this complete dissolving of my ego and like what I was
• 37:25
  attaching all this meaning to. I was like, I saw clearly for
• 37:28
  the first time and that is extremely triggering.
• 37:31
  But because I, you know, I didn't know at the time that
• 37:35
  what I was doing was shadow work.
• 37:36
  I didn't know at the time that what I was doing was inner child
• 37:39
  healing. So that's why it's so kind of
• 37:41
  wild. You'll find, you'll always find
• 37:43
  the medicine that you're looking for.
• 37:45
  No matter what, you cannot miss what is meant for you.
• 37:47
  And I found this way to hold myself through that time that
• 37:52
  now we've been together for over 5 years now and my relationship
• 37:57
  with him looks nothing like the first half of our relation.
• 38:00
  It's the same person, same patterns, same things.
• 38:05
  But the way that I relate to him scrolling on TikTok or watching
• 38:08
  YouTube is so different than how I related to it, you know, back
• 38:12
  in 2019. Yeah.
• 38:15
  And I think that's also an important thing that I feel like
• 38:17
  what I take from that too is the fact that a dynamic and
• 38:20
  codependency can shift and evolve.
• 38:21
  I'm thinking you could have a relationship with someone where
• 38:24
  maybe you're like, we don't have any codependent type of signs or
• 38:29
  symptoms. And I would imagine over time
• 38:31
  those could also develop as either of you change and evolve
• 38:34
  or vice versa. To your point, you could start
• 38:36
  off and realizing and identifying those dynamics and
• 38:40
  then find overtime that they dissipate.
• 38:42
  So I feel like it, which is why I was excited for everyone to
• 38:44
  listen to this, because I think it's really just like this
• 38:48
  understanding of awareness within yourself, within your
• 38:51
  dynamic with others that leads you to be able to have a, a tool
• 38:54
  like a framework basically to like evaluate dynamics.
• 38:59
  Yeah, absolutely. Because, you know, people said,
• 39:02
  OK, well, how do you have this night and day relationship?
• 39:06
  Like what did that take? And it took, you know, that if I
• 39:09
  can go back to that analogy, it took me learning how to fill
• 39:13
  that vessel for myself, right, without him needing to be
• 39:18
  someone to pour into it. And I know I get a lot of like
• 39:21
  pushback because they're like, well, then what's the point of a
• 39:23
  partner? That was my next question.
• 39:25
  I was like, I can be the girl who's listening to this being
• 39:28
  like, but he completes me like all of that narrative let.
• 39:32
  Me. Yeah, Let me drop it on you.
• 39:34
  OK, This is gonna. This is so good because it's so,
• 39:36
  so, so important. And I get it and I get it 100%.
• 39:40
  So when we begin to fill our own vessel, and we can do that
• 39:44
  through the shadow work prompts, right through the shadow work,
• 39:47
  doing that somatic practice, going into an inner child
• 39:50
  healing, where can we can really tend to that part of us?
• 39:52
  Because just like the trigger is that that treasure in the sand,
• 39:57
  that's all this is. It's just finding those keys and
• 40:01
  bringing them back into your body and through somatics and
• 40:05
  through inner child healing. And if I have a free guide too,
• 40:08
  so I will maybe send that to you.
• 40:09
  Amazing. Or like, what are the steps?
• 40:11
  Like it's literally step by step the exact questions to ask.
• 40:15
  But what happens with that vessel in the beginning is that
• 40:18
  now we're filling it from the bottom up.
• 40:21
  So when we got the validation from our partners, it felt good
• 40:24
  because it's going from the top down and it's hitting all those
• 40:27
  dopamine receptors. So when you do the self-care
• 40:30
  thing, let's say you give, you know, take a bath, you're like,
• 40:34
  well, I don't feel better cuz you're starting from the base,
• 40:39
  right? I remember the first, you know,
• 40:42
  the first couple months where I was like, OK, whatever I poured
• 40:45
  into him, I'm going to pour into myself.
• 40:47
  And I sat in that bathtub and I was like, this is fucking
• 40:50
  bullshit. I don't feel any better.
• 40:53
  I am like, if anything, I'm more fucking pissed than I was to
• 40:57
  begin with. But I didn't stop.
• 41:02
  And I think doing a challenge that works really well for me, I
• 41:06
  don't know if that works well for you, but I was like, I'm
• 41:10
  going to do this for 30 days where every time I want him to
• 41:13
  hang out with me, I'm going to hang out with myself.
• 41:16
  And so I took so many fucking baths, you guys.
• 41:19
  My hands were basically like, always wrinkle.
• 41:22
  Yeah, exactly. But you know what happened
• 41:25
  towards the end of the 30 days? I was like, I had bought some
• 41:29
  candles, I had bought like some nice like salts and like created
• 41:34
  a whole mood. I was actually enjoying them,
• 41:37
  right? So it was because I wasn't at
• 41:39
  the the bottom of this vessel, I had gotten maybe like 1/4 of the
• 41:44
  way up where I was like, oh, I actually feel some something
• 41:48
  shifting. And I kid you fucking not, at
• 41:52
  one point, guess who walks in through the bathroom door and
• 41:55
  sits next to me while I'm in the bath?
• 41:58
  My partner. And you know what?
• 42:01
  It was the first time that I realized that, Like, even though
• 42:04
  it was only 5 minutes, I actually felt so much connection
• 42:09
  with him in that moment. And I remember being like, hold
• 42:13
  on to this because what's happening is you are filling
• 42:17
  yourself up that anything he pours into you is overflow,
• 42:23
  right? So for those people who are
• 42:25
  like, well then what's the point of a relationship?
• 42:27
  You have a vessel between you and your partner.
• 42:30
  So when you fill yourself up and they fill themselves up.
• 42:34
  So if you feel responsible for your partner's mood, that's you
• 42:38
  filling their cup and it's not going to actually help them fill
• 42:41
  it for themselves. They're just going to become
• 42:43
  dependent on you making them feel better when you're both
• 42:47
  responsible for your own cups. When I do something kind for my
• 42:51
  partner, he was able to receive it.
• 42:53
  It adds to his overflow and it pours into the vessel between us
• 42:57
  When my partner does something nice to me.
• 42:59
  Because it doesn't mean that your partner cannot validate
• 43:01
  you, doesn't mean that your partner cannot do something nice
• 43:04
  for you. They're going to, they're going
• 43:06
  to tell you, you look pretty today.
• 43:08
  They're going to tell you that they love you out of nowhere.
• 43:11
  They're going to like have those little moments.
• 43:13
  But when I'm not in a as codependent dynamic I can
• 43:17
  actually receive it and not critique where when I'm in a
• 43:21
  codependent dynamic I usually receive it, but then shortly
• 43:25
  after I'm like thirsty for more. I so resonate with that because
• 43:31
  I remember that I would definitely say I'm like a
• 43:34
  relationship girl in the sense of like, I've never been like
• 43:38
  and nothing wrong with it, but I'm just, I've never been a
• 43:39
  casual dater. Like dating to me is like, it's
• 43:43
  just not something I get excited about.
• 43:45
  I don't know if any, any girls do, but for me, it, it doesn't
• 43:48
  excite me like massively. And so I remember that I had
• 43:52
  always kind of had a partner. I'd always been in some kind of
• 43:54
  dynamic. And I didn't realize until
• 43:57
  actually, like frankly, in the last two years that I was always
• 44:00
  around people. Like I was always, to your
• 44:03
  point, getting that dopamine hit of being distracted and not
• 44:07
  really ever having to sit with myself.
• 44:09
  And so I remember when I moved out this year, which was really
• 44:13
  the first like long extended period where I had just left a
• 44:15
  relationship of eight years and I was my first time alone.
• 44:19
  And I'm like, OK, like this is really weird.
• 44:21
  I had a, to your point, the amount of times I was in my
• 44:24
  bathtub, not even OK, like 3 * a day because I was like, OK,
• 44:29
  center yourself. Center yourself.
• 44:31
  And it's weird because so many people were so excited for me.
• 44:34
  They were like, you're going to have your own space.
• 44:36
  It's going to be amazing. You're going to be on your own.
• 44:39
  And I felt none of that. Like I was not excited.
• 44:42
  I did not want to be my myself. All I wanted to do was laugh
• 44:46
  with him again, joke with him again, be around somebody, like
• 44:49
  somebody just distract me. And I realized that it really
• 44:54
  came down to the fact I was not comfortable being by myself
• 44:58
  because I used friends, work him like something else always like
• 45:04
  fill me up, fill me up, distract me, distract me because only
• 45:08
  like my joy and my like excitement was around being
• 45:12
  around other people. And so when you took all of it
• 45:14
  away, it was terrifying. You feel so exposed because you
• 45:18
  realize, and even for me at least, I had this inner thing of
• 45:21
  like, who the hell am I? Because I realized that without
• 45:25
  these people or things or jobs or distractions, frankly, I
• 45:30
  didn't even know what to do with myself.
• 45:33
  So I'm curious, like for somebody maybe who feels like
• 45:37
  they lose themselves and their friends, they lose themselves
• 45:40
  in, in work, maybe like in family, in their partner.
• 45:44
  How did you get to that place? Like really enjoying and getting
• 45:48
  back to yourself when as I'm sure like similar to your
• 45:51
  situation, it probably was pretty like jarring at first I
• 45:54
  would imagine. Absolutely.
• 45:57
  And I'm not like there yet. Like I'm not even I want to like
• 46:01
  name that too because I think a common misconception is like,
• 46:04
  oh, you heal codependency and you don't experience this.
• 46:07
  I'm still experiencing this. If I'm just regulated, I am
• 46:12
  codependent as fuck to something like I am trying, I'm grasping,
• 46:18
  right? And so I want to name that that
• 46:21
  like what's going to work in this season of your life might
• 46:25
  hold you through this season, but that might change next
• 46:28
  season. Like when I first became aware
• 46:29
  of this, it was Baz for me. Like I tend to get overwhelmed
• 46:34
  with decisions that I will just like not make any.
• 46:37
  So what I would recommend for people who are wanting to kind
• 46:41
  of start maybe doing that inner tending to and learning how to
• 46:45
  fill that vessel is pick two things.
• 46:48
  Pick two things that are relatively free or inexpensive,
• 46:53
  that don't like cost to anything but maybe your time and try to
• 46:57
  have those things touch on as many sensorial experiences as
• 47:02
  possible. So my two things were taking a
• 47:06
  bath and making myself cacao. So you have the the physical act
• 47:12
  of drawing yourself a bath, right?
• 47:14
  You need to turn on the water and you need to, you know, light
• 47:17
  candles, which would be pulling on your smells, right?
• 47:21
  Having something that you're smelling, maybe it's essential
• 47:24
  oils that you're putting into the bath and then like
• 47:26
  aesthetically make it pleasing to the eye.
• 47:29
  So just like you're physically feeling the water on your skin,
• 47:32
  the warmth of the temperature, right?
• 47:35
  With cacao, which I ended up switching to tea cause cacao can
• 47:38
  actually be quite expensive if you've got a problem.
• 47:42
  So, but like the act of like making a nourishing tea.
• 47:47
  So you have like the act of boiling the water and then
• 47:49
  getting the tea bag and there's the smells in the tea bag and
• 47:52
  you're tasting it, right? So those I think are really
• 47:56
  important things to kind of play with.
• 47:59
  Like, maybe it doesn't hit on every single one, but the more I
• 48:01
  think the better because what you're doing is you're carving
• 48:04
  out this time to really bring presents to what is happening
• 48:09
  right now in this moment. It's almost like a, as I'm
• 48:14
  listening to this, it's almost like a dopamine detox in a way.
• 48:18
  It's kind of what I'm getting from this because I'm thinking
• 48:22
  like, would it be fair to say that really like being
• 48:25
  codependent is being dependent on dopamine from a source
• 48:28
  outside of yourself? Yeah, totally got it.
• 48:32
  OK. Yeah, because as soon as you're
• 48:33
  saying like. Palm bath candles.
• 48:37
  And I'm thinking for most women who I know are listening to
• 48:40
  this, like go, go, go. One thing after another.
• 48:42
  It's like chop, chop, chop, move, move, move that you
• 48:45
  probably haven't had a moment where you haven't had that
• 48:48
  massive dopamine spike. So the idea to your analogy of
• 48:50
  starting from the bottom and building toward it and being OK
• 48:53
  in that middle space and progress would feel very
• 48:57
  uncomfortable. So I love the idea of getting
• 49:00
  back into yourself so you're less about like this like kind
• 49:03
  of constant dopamine hit and more in the actual process and
• 49:06
  enjoying it. Yeah, it's exactly why, you
• 49:09
  know, as a business owner, right?
• 49:11
  And someone who makes content and I have tons of pieces of
• 49:16
  content that go viral and, you know, reach the millions.
• 49:20
  So there's a lot of dopamine coming in all the time.
• 49:23
  I'm on Do Not Disturb all of the time.
• 49:25
  I don't get any notifications and it's best that way.
• 49:29
  And because I think I'm that go go, go person too.
• 49:34
  I'm a manifesting generator. An idea comes in and I'm going
• 49:37
  to create all the things like in the next 30 minutes, but to my
• 49:41
  demise in a lot of ways because it's I'm distracting myself from
• 49:44
  being. And so in this season of my
• 49:47
  life, I'm actually creating more boundaries around my business
• 49:51
  because that's the thing I started distracting myself with.
• 49:55
  Before it was with my friends, right before the pandemic, it
• 49:58
  was gatherings with my friends, dinner parties, going out, all
• 50:03
  of those things. And then I learned, you know, in
• 50:07
  the pandemic, how to be alone. I learned in my breakup, which
• 50:10
  is around the same time, how to be alone, how to actually spend
• 50:14
  time with myself. But then I've noticed where I
• 50:17
  can easily distract myself and fill that void with business.
• 50:22
  And so it's this unraveling again of I am locked out of my
• 50:26
  phone from 11:00 to 1:00 and I make myself go for a walk.
• 50:32
  I either go for a walk or I go for a run.
• 50:34
  I'm making sourdough bread, like whatever I need to do, right?
• 50:38
  It's like pushing myself in this season of my life.
• 50:41
  What is something that I can pour into?
• 50:43
  Because baths don't like baths. Don't do it for me right now.
• 50:47
  Not to mention your water bill. Would be, I know.
• 50:51
  Insane. Yeah.
• 50:52
  Well, obviously you mentioned, you mentioned business and
• 50:55
  obviously so many of the women who listen to this are business
• 50:57
  owners. And so I can imagine that
• 50:59
  there's people who might say, well, you know, but I don't feel
• 51:02
  like I see this in my relationship or maybe I don't
• 51:04
  see this with my friends. You obviously work with business
• 51:07
  owners. You are a business owner.
• 51:09
  How do you see this impacting things like business or business
• 51:14
  relationships? Oh my gosh, if I can think back
• 51:17
  to my first like year or two years in my business, I had
• 51:21
  created such a codependent dynamic with my business because
• 51:25
  I was constantly, and it's kind of what they teach you in all
• 51:28
  the business classes and you know, masterminds and all this.
• 51:32
  It's like, I know they don't use this language anymore, but like,
• 51:35
  find your ideal client, find your avatar.
• 51:38
  Like what are they doing? What are they experiencing that
• 51:40
  is literally getting you out of your house and into somebody
• 51:45
  else's? And you're like, what do they
• 51:47
  want? What do they need?
• 51:49
  And that's none of your business.
• 51:51
  And when also when you do that, you lose sight of the magic of
• 51:57
  whatever it is that you're offering because you're
• 52:00
  constantly trying to think, what do they, what does my audience
• 52:03
  want to hear? What does my audience want to
• 52:05
  see? What kind of program do they
• 52:07
  want? It is not sustainable.
• 52:09
  Like from my experience, that's just not sustainable.
• 52:13
  It was when I was like, I'm putting this shit down and I'm
• 52:17
  just going to create content for me for for a previous version of
• 52:21
  me, right? What does Alyssa five years ago,
• 52:25
  like what did she need to hear? What did she need to know that I
• 52:29
  know now? And so every piece of content
• 52:32
  that you see from me, every offer I create for myself, the
• 52:36
  Codependency Alchemy membership is for me because I want a space
• 52:40
  to be held accountable, right? My Codependency Alchemy
• 52:43
  Mastermind is for me because I need a space to be held
• 52:47
  accountable. Yeah.
• 52:49
  And. Putting this huge.
• 52:51
  Totally the podcast for me so that I can be held accountable,
• 52:55
  right? Like I love it.
• 52:56
  All of these offers are are for me and for previous versions of
• 53:01
  me that didn't know what I know now.
• 53:04
  And I think when you come into your business from that place,
• 53:09
  you have an unlimited well of content.
• 53:13
  Yeah. Really good fucking content too.
• 53:16
  Relatable content when I was like what do they want to hear?
• 53:22
  I can't possibly know and I'm going to drive myself crazy
• 53:26
  trying to figure it out. It's a constant battle.
• 53:29
  And I think you know, the the thing that I've found even in
• 53:32
  business, because obviously there's so many ways to succeed
• 53:34
  in business. The codependent way that I found
• 53:39
  people are kind of to your point of the traits earlier that I see
• 53:41
  this is I do definitely see it in content.
• 53:44
  So I see it in a way that people are.
• 53:46
  So to your point, what do they want?
• 53:50
  I don't exist. And I think that obviously the
• 53:52
  basis, yes, of business is solve a problem that people need
• 53:55
  solved. However, I think that like,
• 53:57
  especially today with personal brands, part of the way in which
• 54:01
  you do it, which is innately in you, is part of the reason that
• 54:04
  it's it's successful. So like even for you, obviously
• 54:07
  with having a big following and having, you know, a business, a
• 54:10
  lot of that is because you trusted your gut on what to post
• 54:13
  and what to say and what to create.
• 54:15
  And it's landed with people, right?
• 54:17
  So to your point, you're in tune with them, but you're not only
• 54:22
  there to serve them. And I think that that's a big
• 54:25
  differentiator. And I see that also, most
• 54:28
  importantly for me, I see it when it comes to delivery.
• 54:31
  Like I've seen people who've had clients that the client messages
• 54:36
  and they're there within 5 seconds answering them because
• 54:39
  they can't let them sit for 20 seconds on their own.
• 54:41
  Like they can't. The idea of having the client
• 54:43
  self soothe makes them so uncomfortable that again, to
• 54:47
  your point of really the avoidance of pain, they're like,
• 54:50
  but what if I don't answer and they they quit the program?
• 54:52
  And what if I don't answer and then this happens to them?
• 54:54
  Or what if I don't get back to them?
• 54:55
  And then this occurs. And all these hypothetical
• 54:59
  situations like you mentioned earlier in your mind spiraling
• 55:02
  as to what could occur is what happens in a moment, in a
• 55:06
  second, and then you go and you quickly answer it.
• 55:08
  And the thing that I would love if you could give me your
• 55:11
  thoughts on, because I feel like I see this with people again, in
• 55:14
  content or in coaching, is I find the more you do it, the
• 55:18
  more it's ultimately ingraining the dynamic further and further,
• 55:23
  deeper and deeper. Like I'm thinking if you have
• 55:25
  clients that you're codependent with and you might be like,
• 55:28
  well, I'm not codependent with my clients, but yet you answer
• 55:30
  them in five seconds or like if they call, you're running if
• 55:34
  that is happening and someone's constantly answering it.
• 55:39
  And again, this cloak of, but I love my clients and I over
• 55:43
  deliver and I really care and all these things With
• 55:46
  codependency, does this get ingrained deeper and deeper?
• 55:49
  Like is someone not acknowledging this and
• 55:52
  continuing the behavior potentially a reason that the
• 55:56
  codependency will go deeper and like more ingrained than even
• 55:59
  might be today? Mm hmm.
• 56:01
  Yeah, I think so. And also you have to realize
• 56:05
  that the transformation that you're holding for your client,
• 56:08
  you're actually taking away from them because they're dependent
• 56:12
  on you fixing it for them or holding them or, or like you
• 56:16
  said, soothing, soothing with them, right.
• 56:20
  This is where I think my coaching containers are so
• 56:23
  different, or at least what I've heard from clients who have
• 56:25
  worked with other coaches is that I don't fix anything for
• 56:28
  anyone. Like I don't at all, like not
• 56:33
  even close. And you know, some of my clients
• 56:36
  are like, I hate that you don't fix it for me.
• 56:39
  And but that's my work is to not fix it for you.
• 56:42
  I always say trust in their resilience.
• 56:45
  Trust in their resilience to move through it.
• 56:48
  That is actually going to provide them more of the
• 56:51
  transformation than you coming in and solving it for them.
• 56:56
  Yeah, my, my whole thing I always say is teach people how
• 56:58
  to think, don't teach them what to do.
• 57:00
  And I think that the idea of like I, I'm sure you share like
• 57:04
  your perspective of like how you perceive the situation and what
• 57:08
  you might do in the sense of like how you look at it or how
• 57:10
  you assess it. But even for me, one of the
• 57:13
  biggest things people like, just tell me what like tell me the
• 57:15
  thing to do. Tell me the action to take.
• 57:17
  Tell me the thing to say. Tell me this.
• 57:19
  And, you know, even for me, I, to your point, early in my
• 57:22
  business was always someone to be known for, like done free
• 57:25
  resources. So I'm like, OK, like I'll make
• 57:26
  you a template for that e-mail. I'll make you a template for
• 57:28
  that launch. And what actually ended up
• 57:31
  happening is I created this culture and this base of clients
• 57:34
  who didn't want to have to think, who were just like,
• 57:36
  great. Like we go to Kate, she gives us
• 57:39
  our little dopamine hit. We go back into the business, we
• 57:42
  need more. We go and get it from her and it
• 57:45
  was literally thinking about like a hamster in a cage just
• 57:47
  going back and drinking water over and over and over.
• 57:50
  You get what you need, you go, you get what you need, you go
• 57:53
  and it goes back to your analogy.
• 57:54
  Like I didn't even I thought I was helping them.
• 57:56
  I genuinely was like, this is so good.
• 57:59
  Best program on the market, thought it was the best and
• 58:03
  while in a way they thought it was good, right.
• 58:06
  To your point, you might think that I dynamic with someone is
• 58:10
  quote UN quote healthy. Maybe like to your example of
• 58:12
  your mom of like I'm doing this because I care for her in turn,
• 58:18
  could be in other ways actually not helping her because you're
• 58:21
  not saying how you feel or with these clients because you're not
• 58:24
  allowing them to experience a moment of discomfort or
• 58:26
  resilience to your point. And because they're not getting
• 58:29
  that, they're not actually getting to tap into like what
• 58:31
  they have inside of them. 1000% And like my curiosity around the
• 58:37
  dynamic of your clients coming in, you doing it for them and
• 58:40
  giving like could you do that for the next 10 years?
• 58:43
  Like, was that sustainable? If I self sacrificed, yeah, that
• 58:47
  was the thing. Like it was like, and what I
• 58:49
  found was it trained people like I got to a place where I had so
• 58:54
  many done for you templates and so many done for you, this, that
• 58:56
  and the other and someone be like, hey, do you have a
• 58:58
  training on this? Do you have a template on this?
• 59:00
  And I'm like, no, but I can make one.
• 59:01
  Boom, dopamine hit. And they're like amazing.
• 59:03
  Sounds good. And then which is different than
• 59:06
  a 1 to 1 dynamic when you have it in a group dynamic, you're
• 59:09
  training everyone in your codependent dynamic at the same
• 59:13
  time. So it was really actually not
• 59:16
  until a mentor had said it to me saying, listen, I know you think
• 59:20
  these resources are helping people.
• 59:22
  It could. It's literally handicapping
• 59:24
  them. And if you don't change it,
• 59:27
  you're literally going to lead them worse off long term.
• 59:30
  Maybe in the moment they're going to have this dopamine hit.
• 59:32
  But like you were noting like when I was alone or like what I
• 59:35
  was saying when I was alone long term, I didn't even realize it
• 59:38
  until I stopped. Like, I didn't to your point,
• 59:41
  till you took a break. Like, I didn't realize until I
• 59:44
  stopped creating them that I actually felt uncomfortable to
• 59:47
  not create them for the clients. And I was like, OK, I'm going to
• 59:50
  dive into why I feel this way because this is not good.
• 59:52
  Yeah, it was. It was wild.
• 59:54
  Yeah. And I love that reflection for
• 59:57
  any business owners who are like, OK, I want to see if maybe
• 1:00:00
  I have codependency in my business or in my relationships
• 1:00:03
  with my clients. Ask yourself if you didn't do
• 1:00:07
  whatever it is that you're doing, that maybe you're feeling
• 1:00:09
  a little exhausted by even that would be a good indicator, a
• 1:00:13
  good place to start. And then asking, what am I
• 1:00:16
  afraid will happen if I don't provide that, you know?
• 1:00:20
  My business will fail. I've had to do this with my
• 1:00:22
  membership so many times. I thought I needed to have this
• 1:00:25
  and this and I had to have master classes and I needed to
• 1:00:27
  have this type of content. I had to have meditations and I
• 1:00:30
  if I didn't have this, then no one would join the membership.
• 1:00:35
  And it's like, OK, well, here I am like creating this
• 1:00:40
  expectation from people that I need to over produce all these
• 1:00:45
  things so that they would stay. And so now it's just like I take
• 1:00:50
  a step back. I take a step back further and
• 1:00:52
  further away. And now it's like, sometimes I
• 1:00:55
  do want to do a master class or sometimes I do want to create a
• 1:00:57
  template, or sometimes I do want to create a workbook, but doing
• 1:01:01
  it from a place of inspiration just because maybe the question
• 1:01:04
  came in a whole bunch. And I'm like, oh, this would be
• 1:01:06
  a great workbook. Instead of like if I don't
• 1:01:08
  create this workbook, they're going to leave.
• 1:01:11
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. OK.
• 1:01:14
  So obviously that business wise so lands, I'm like already
• 1:01:19
  having all the downloads and connecting all the dots of
• 1:01:21
  people I know. But we've got obviously business
• 1:01:24
  clarity. We talked about the romantic
• 1:01:26
  relationship side of it with friendships.
• 1:01:27
  Someone's like, OK, you've got my attention.
• 1:01:30
  This is definitely things that I'm seeing.
• 1:01:32
  I have a pattern in where does someone start to overcome this?
• 1:01:36
  Like obviously there's an aspect like you mentioned before of
• 1:01:38
  getting an understanding, but I'm wondering, you know, getting
• 1:01:42
  an understanding and of where it comes from and the self-care.
• 1:01:45
  But I'm thinking in practice, IE I'm thinking, you know, for you,
• 1:01:51
  I'm sure when you guys started to get back connected again, you
• 1:01:53
  kind of were faced with like the quote UN quote trigger or you're
• 1:01:57
  get put back in the same environment that created the
• 1:01:59
  thing in the 1st place. So I'm thinking for someone, if
• 1:02:01
  that thing is their mom or if that thing is a friend that they
• 1:02:05
  always find they're resentful with, even though they say,
• 1:02:08
  yeah, sure, I'll do it. Or the clients.
• 1:02:11
  When you kind of get back in the environment and you're like,
• 1:02:14
  I've done the bath, I did the candles and tea.
• 1:02:16
  I understand it's probably something to do with this point
• 1:02:19
  in my life. I went back and tried to connect
• 1:02:21
  the dots. But when I'm in that trigger,
• 1:02:24
  when I'm in that environment, I feel like I kind of go back to
• 1:02:27
  old ways. Did you find that or is there
• 1:02:29
  something that you know people could do, maybe in those
• 1:02:32
  situations that you would recommend?
• 1:02:35
  Yeah, absolutely. When we got back together, it
• 1:02:37
  was so bad, like there was nothing good.
• 1:02:39
  There was nothing good about it. It was so bad, so bad.
• 1:02:43
  But we both agreed that we wanted to make it work, right,
• 1:02:50
  Which helped, right? What I would tell anyone who is
• 1:02:56
  wanting to better hold themselves in those moments that
• 1:02:59
  they are triggered is to do 2 things and they're both
• 1:03:03
  regarding pattern tracking. What are the thoughts that
• 1:03:10
  continuously come up when you're triggered?
• 1:03:13
  For me, I'll tell you mine. Whenever I defend myself or feel
• 1:03:16
  like I need to defend myself, that is an indicator that I need
• 1:03:20
  to pause and that a part of me is at the surface that I need to
• 1:03:24
  tend to. So needing to defend myself or
• 1:03:29
  feeling resentful like I had named earlier, those tend to be
• 1:03:34
  very common indicators for we are just regulated.
• 1:03:38
  We need to take a pause and we need to go and regulate
• 1:03:42
  ourselves basically. So I have a script basically
• 1:03:47
  that I lean on when those mental triggers come up whenever I feel
• 1:03:52
  like I need to defend myself or I'm starting to feel resentful
• 1:03:55
  and saying like he's this or he is that or whatever story I'm
• 1:03:59
  saying. And those mental triggers I go
• 1:04:04
  into, hey, I need to table this, Hey, can we table this
• 1:04:08
  conversation? I'm noticing, I need to, I'm
• 1:04:10
  feeling the need to defend myself.
• 1:04:12
  And I hold that boundary. That's like really going to be
• 1:04:17
  the, the work in helping you move through these in real time
• 1:04:22
  is you're going to need to have boundaries.
• 1:04:24
  And the only way that you're going to know where you need to
• 1:04:26
  have boundaries is if you need to, if you know when the
• 1:04:29
  boundary is needed. So I know the boundary is needed
• 1:04:33
  when I'm feeling like I need to defend myself and I'm feeling
• 1:04:35
  resentful. If I'm feeling resentful, I need
• 1:04:37
  to stop doing what I'm doing and I need to communicate to my mom
• 1:04:42
  or to my partner, hey, I know I said yes, but I'm also feeling
• 1:04:49
  like a little bit resentful. So I'm going to actually have to
• 1:04:53
  say no. It's like tuning in to the
• 1:04:56
  feeling that comes up with the trigger and then using that as
• 1:05:00
  your indicator moving forward. Even though the situation may
• 1:05:02
  change, the feeling remains the same and I love the idea.
• 1:05:06
  To your point of tabling it one of the quotes that I started to
• 1:05:08
  kind of like live by this year that I definitely did not I'm I
• 1:05:11
  feel like I've been working on boundary work with my therapist
• 1:05:13
  for like God knows how many years.
• 1:05:15
  I'm 30. 2 It's a lifetime thing. It's a lifetime thing 30.
• 1:05:19
  Two, and I've been working on this since 18.
• 1:05:21
  Like come on, it's a constant practice.
• 1:05:24
  But one of the things that I feel like I've been living by
• 1:05:26
  because I didn't, to your point, I always was very self
• 1:05:28
  sacrificial. If I didn't want to go
• 1:05:30
  somewhere, I'd never say that. I'd say of course, absolutely,
• 1:05:33
  I'll go. And then I would be resentful or
• 1:05:35
  if someone asked me to do something or support them in
• 1:05:38
  some way, I would always just say yes and basically give
• 1:05:40
  myself. And then that would be that.
• 1:05:43
  And I would just kind of ruminate inside And I would
• 1:05:46
  always feel this, this urge to be like no, no, no, no, no
• 1:05:48
  inside. But then I would say yes.
• 1:05:50
  So I would feel this kind of like loud noise, I guess I would
• 1:05:54
  say, because my brain would go 1,000,000 miles a minute.
• 1:05:57
  And someone said to me, what if you just like actually said what
• 1:05:59
  you feel? And I was like, no, no.
• 1:06:02
  I can't do that. It's too scary.
• 1:06:04
  But when I started to try to flex that muscle, it was very
• 1:06:07
  uncomfortable, to be honest. To your point of tabling it,
• 1:06:11
  there was all these ideas of what would happen if I tabled
• 1:06:13
  it. So like, would I not be this
• 1:06:15
  this person, not be my friend with this person, not want to be
• 1:06:17
  with me anymore, whatever it might be in the situation, fire
• 1:06:20
  me if they're a client. And someone said, why don't you
• 1:06:23
  live by the motto of if you think it, feel it, say it.
• 1:06:26
  And I was like, OK, so now I will say like that motto up.
• 1:06:30
  If you think it, feel it, say it has been such a like game
• 1:06:33
  changer cuz it basically that paired with Mel Robbins 321-GO
• 1:06:38
  has been in those moments where I feel like I've so much noise
• 1:06:42
  inside of me. I'm like, OK, this is the moment
• 1:06:45
  I'm like 321-GO think or feel it, say it.
• 1:06:47
  And I just go and I say whatever I need to say.
• 1:06:50
  Like the depth that is created with relationships that I have
• 1:06:53
  now because the person's like, thank you so much for being so
• 1:06:57
  transparent because honestly, I really needed to hear that.
• 1:06:59
  And thinking about the depth as I'm even sure with you guys that
• 1:07:03
  you have in your relationship now by tabling things versus
• 1:07:06
  before, it kind of being inside of you is such a different level
• 1:07:11
  of connection not only with yourself but also with another
• 1:07:14
  person. Yeah, to, to really pull forward
• 1:07:19
  what you're saying here, too, and like amplifying it, it
• 1:07:22
  bridges intimacy. It brings deeper levels of
• 1:07:26
  intimacy, which ironically, is what we all want when we say yes
• 1:07:31
  when we mean no. Right.
• 1:07:33
  But that is why I love reality checking the part of us that
• 1:07:38
  feels like we have to say yes. Just asking ourselves, you know,
• 1:07:42
  what do you think saying yes is going to provide you with?
• 1:07:46
  Well, connection. I'll be a good friend.
• 1:07:48
  They'll like me or they won't fire me.
• 1:07:50
  How do you feel when you say yes?
• 1:07:53
  I feel let like I feel alone. I feel misunderstood.
• 1:07:57
  I feel overwhelmed, I feel anxious.
• 1:07:59
  So is it actually providing you with the feeling that you think
• 1:08:02
  it is? And most of the time when we're,
• 1:08:05
  when we're overriding our intuition and what is really
• 1:08:08
  true for us, it's never, it's never giving us what we think we
• 1:08:12
  want. We think it is right.
• 1:08:13
  Yeah, yeah. And yeah, I think that that's
• 1:08:17
  just so important to note that additionally from the mental
• 1:08:21
  indicators of, you know, resentment or defending myself,
• 1:08:25
  it's the somatic indicators. And I think this was the most
• 1:08:28
  helpful for me in communicating in the beginning because saying
• 1:08:32
  like I'm feeling resentful can actually be really triggering to
• 1:08:36
  to the other person. Yeah.
• 1:08:38
  So with my family especially, I have generations of women still
• 1:08:43
  alive in my family. I'm so lucky.
• 1:08:44
  Like my great grandma is still alive, 93, my grandma is still
• 1:08:47
  alive. Their reality of my life is very
• 1:08:51
  different than my reality of my life, right?
• 1:08:55
  And so I've noticed that it's been really hard to articulate
• 1:08:58
  boundaries with them, but using a somatic descriptions of what
• 1:09:05
  I'm feeling has helped me kind of work that muscle where I'm
• 1:09:08
  afraid to enforce a boundary with them.
• 1:09:11
  So just saying, I'm noticing that I'll tell you guys my
• 1:09:14
  somatic indicators, my ears get hot, I lose feeling in my
• 1:09:19
  fingertips and I start getting shallow breathing or my heart
• 1:09:22
  and my heart starts beating like really fast.
• 1:09:24
  That's when I'm triggered. That's what my body does.
• 1:09:27
  And So what I would say to them is, you know, I hear you want to
• 1:09:31
  have a conversation about, you know, 1993 when, when this,
• 1:09:36
  this, this happened. I'm noticing that my ears are
• 1:09:39
  getting really hot and I'm losing feeling in my fingertips,
• 1:09:42
  which tells me that I'm feeling dysregulated.
• 1:09:44
  So I need to table this conversation for right now.
• 1:09:47
  Can we talk about dinner on Thursday?
• 1:09:50
  You know, so that's how we enforce the boundary.
• 1:09:52
  And I think that that's where boundary work has totally, like,
• 1:09:57
  got misguided because we think boundaries actually have to do
• 1:09:59
  with somebody else doing or not doing what we want them to do.
• 1:10:03
  But they have nothing to do with other people and everything to
• 1:10:06
  do with us. Yeah.
• 1:10:07
  And you've been working on boundaries since you were 18
• 1:10:10
  because boundaries are fluid. So what was a boundary for you a
• 1:10:14
  year ago is not a boundary today.
• 1:10:16
  Well, to be fair, they also have moved from different people in
• 1:10:19
  my life, like they're like different situations and
• 1:10:21
  different dynamics. So to your point with your
• 1:10:23
  family, when you have a dynamic, for example, say with your mom,
• 1:10:28
  it's different than the way I have a dynamic or like the issue
• 1:10:31
  of boundary with this person versus a partner.
• 1:10:33
  And so I feel like the reps of it all have also been
• 1:10:38
  interesting because to your point, even there was the
• 1:10:41
  integration of it in a moment and putting in those reps when
• 1:10:44
  they came up, but also realizing where they came from has been a
• 1:10:46
  lot of the work. Because even to your point of
• 1:10:49
  say, like finding fulfilment in something else, there was an
• 1:10:54
  aspect that I realized of like finding fulfillment and other
• 1:10:57
  things or other people was because I wasn't fulfilled in
• 1:10:59
  myself, IE me alone without all of those things, without the
• 1:11:03
  accolades, without the circle of friends, whatever it might be.
• 1:11:06
  And then also there was this aspect, like for me, I come from
• 1:11:09
  a Doris family and it was a pretty messy divorce.
• 1:11:12
  And so my mom was a single mom of four.
• 1:11:14
  And so I had dynamics of just wanting to make sure she's OK,
• 1:11:18
  whatever she needs, if she needs it, if she needs it.
• 1:11:20
  And so I was like, she's good, she's good, she's good.
• 1:11:23
  And I never really got out of that since I was like 12.
• 1:11:27
  So I was OK, great, 12. Now I'm 32.
• 1:11:28
  This is just what we do. And then you start to realize,
• 1:11:31
  wait a second, like she's an adult, I'm an adult.
• 1:11:34
  So you're trying to figure out what this dynamic is.
• 1:11:36
  But it was never something that you, which is why I think
• 1:11:39
  therapy and all of this work is so important because it wasn't
• 1:11:42
  something that it was like this massive issue in my life.
• 1:11:45
  It was just our dynamic. You just label it as like, this
• 1:11:48
  is just how we vibe and how we, we work together, right?
• 1:11:51
  Or even with a partner. I had a partner that I, I
• 1:11:54
  definitely can see some of these dynamics with and some of the
• 1:11:58
  traits that you mentioned. And like, I think so many times
• 1:12:01
  we just label it as like, well, this is just how we are or like
• 1:12:03
  this is like our, our situation, right, our roles.
• 1:12:07
  But I think it like the big thing that I'm taking from
• 1:12:10
  everything you've said today is like, while it is maybe the way
• 1:12:12
  that you guys have been, or maybe the way that you are, you
• 1:12:16
  with your clients, you, your friends, you, your partner, is
• 1:12:19
  it how you want it to be? IE like, do you want to feel
• 1:12:22
  this way? Do you want to have lack of
• 1:12:24
  boundaries? Do you want to not feel alone?
• 1:12:27
  And it was actually truthfully like when you were saying like
• 1:12:29
  being alone in the bath. So you guys know from my other
• 1:12:32
  episodes how much I talk about my bath.
• 1:12:33
  So it's so funny you said that. But it was when I was on my own
• 1:12:36
  that I actually started to really realize the significance
• 1:12:39
  of this work because I started to see, you know, I, I thought
• 1:12:43
  forward facing in my life. What if I was to get divorced?
• 1:12:45
  What if I was to end up alone with kids, like, you know,
• 1:12:48
  happened in my family and I thought to myself, I'm not even
• 1:12:51
  comfortable by myself right now and I don't have a husband and
• 1:12:55
  children and all these things. So if I don't fix this route of
• 1:12:58
  me in this current stage of my life, this is just going to
• 1:13:01
  deeper integrate with my kids, become the thing that completes
• 1:13:05
  me. My partner becomes the thing
• 1:13:06
  that completes me. So I feel like I don't know if
• 1:13:09
  you did this when you guys took space, but like I feel like I
• 1:13:11
  went in the opposite direction in a dramatic way.
• 1:13:13
  Like I was like, I don't want anyone around me.
• 1:13:15
  I want to go inward. I want to like read and journal
• 1:13:18
  and Bible and all of the things to like better understand myself
• 1:13:22
  because I was like, if I don't, I'm just going to go seek
• 1:13:25
  something else to try to basically, to your point, hit
• 1:13:28
  that dopamine receptor. Yeah.
• 1:13:31
  Yeah, I wish I would have done that.
• 1:13:32
  No, I absolutely did not want to be by myself.
• 1:13:35
  And I found the first person that would take me and I was
• 1:13:38
  like you over there. I need you, you need me.
• 1:13:42
  And I like attached and clung. So I like went on like a really,
• 1:13:46
  really, that's what illuminated all my codependency.
• 1:13:48
  Like it was, it was a toxic situation chip where I'm
• 1:13:54
  anxiously attached and he was avoidant and it was just like
• 1:13:58
  absolute dumpster fire. But thank God, like I'm so
• 1:14:01
  grateful. I would do it 1000 times over
• 1:14:04
  because you could not ignore my dysfunction.
• 1:14:09
  Like, like, I had a complete malfunction of being that was
• 1:14:13
  impossible not to look at. Yeah.
• 1:14:16
  But to your point, like, thank God, because this is what cycle
• 1:14:21
  Breakers do, right? We were able to see, whoa.
• 1:14:25
  I could have, like, just kept going with it, right?
• 1:14:27
  And not acknowledged it and not looked at it and not be like,
• 1:14:29
  what is going on here? Let me tend to this.
• 1:14:33
  But you and I both were like, this carries on.
• 1:14:37
  To. Whoever comes after me or
• 1:14:40
  whoever I'm in a relationship with next, yeah.
• 1:14:43
  So do I want to continue this pattern or do I want to do
• 1:14:46
  something different? Which I want to go back to
• 1:14:48
  something you said at the beginning, because I think
• 1:14:50
  that's what makes it so significant is that you found it
• 1:14:53
  in yourself and stopped blaming other people.
• 1:14:56
  And I think that that's like the root of all of it today.
• 1:14:59
  And I'm a big fan of it in every department of life.
• 1:15:00
  Like just take radical ownership because it's the only way to
• 1:15:03
  really solve anything. But I think only if you actually
• 1:15:07
  like even again, kind of why I wanted to preface today, because
• 1:15:10
  if you're this way through the episode and you're like, OK, now
• 1:15:12
  I get it with the codependency. The reason I wanted to talk
• 1:15:15
  about this is because I think sometimes we see these like
• 1:15:18
  labels, right? We see like labels of anything
• 1:15:20
  of being anxious or this, that or the other.
• 1:15:22
  And you think that's not me. But when you get into the trades
• 1:15:25
  to your point of triggers earlier, you start to understand
• 1:15:28
  yourself. And when you understand
• 1:15:30
  yourself, you see not only the impact of you today, but the
• 1:15:32
  impact of like, if I don't fix this, if I don't have an
• 1:15:35
  awareness or even a practice around this, this integrates
• 1:15:39
  into all future parts of my life.
• 1:15:40
  And so I think like, even for you, like you're saying like I
• 1:15:43
  still deal with it every day. Also same, I still deal with
• 1:15:46
  this every day. But I think the difference of
• 1:15:49
  you having an education around it and also having an awareness
• 1:15:52
  of it changes the way you live with it because you now have
• 1:15:55
  tools in this toolbox to basically navigate what it looks
• 1:15:58
  like in your life versus what it might if you didn't have that
• 1:16:01
  information. So all of what you shared today,
• 1:16:04
  it was a master class. So it was so good.
• 1:16:07
  It was so good. OK, if someone's listening to
• 1:16:10
  this and we do this to end every single episode, there's someone
• 1:16:14
  listening to this. If you have any words of wisdom
• 1:16:16
  for them or any kind of advice, it can be in business, it can be
• 1:16:20
  in life, it could be as it pertains to codependency.
• 1:16:22
  But the the woman who's listening to this is, is
• 1:16:24
  extremely driven going for massive things in her life,
• 1:16:27
  relationships, health, all the things.
• 1:16:29
  As obviously fellow business owner yourself and obviously
• 1:16:32
  someone who's a master in this work.
• 1:16:33
  Is there anything that you might recommend as like a nugget of
• 1:16:36
  advice that maybe has been impactful for you that you want
• 1:16:38
  to share with her? Whatever you don't look at,
• 1:16:42
  whatever remains unconscious will silently run your life.
• 1:16:47
  So stay curious, stay willing to see the scary messy part, and
• 1:16:55
  stay compassionate and hold yourself in grace.
• 1:16:58
  Like curiosity, grace and compassion will literally
• 1:17:03
  dissolve any scary unconscious patterns and behaviors.
• 1:17:09
  I love it, I love it. A great quote that I heard from
• 1:17:12
  a mentor was whatever you resist persists.
• 1:17:15
  Yeah, exactly. I love it.
• 1:17:19
  All right, all right, girl, if somebody wants to connect with
• 1:17:22
  you, social all of the things tell us the best place for
• 1:17:25
  someone to reach out to you if they kind of want to learn more
• 1:17:27
  a little bit about your work and just like listening to like 10X
• 1:17:30
  more of everything that you touched on today.
• 1:17:32
  Yeah, it would be an honor to just touch base with anyone who
• 1:17:37
  comes across this podcast episode.
• 1:17:38
  Please slide into my D Ms. I respond personally to all of
• 1:17:43
  them. I love connecting with people.
• 1:17:44
  You can find me on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube.
• 1:17:47
  I'm on all the things. My username is my first name,
• 1:17:51
  Alyssa. My last name is Xander with two
• 1:17:53
  as in the middle. And yeah, I have a sub stack
• 1:17:57
  podcast membership all under codependency alchemy.
• 1:18:02
  It's like a top 100 relationship podcast, which has been great.
• 1:18:05
  It's so neat. We have a membership of over 250
• 1:18:09
  women and men actually who are all doing this work together.
• 1:18:14
  That there is nothing like coming into a community with
• 1:18:16
  like minded people being like, OK, I'm willing to look at my
• 1:18:19
  shit. And we have a chat, which is
• 1:18:22
  just like, it's where the magic happens.
• 1:18:24
  People just are like, does anyone else struggle with this?
• 1:18:27
  And everyone's like, wait, yes. And then that you, you feel
• 1:18:32
  compassion, right? And you have compassion for
• 1:18:34
  another person. And so then that compassion just
• 1:18:37
  naturally extends to you. And I think that's how we feel
• 1:18:39
  codependency is by not silently suffering and our patterns and
• 1:18:43
  holding that that really heavy shame and guilt that can that
• 1:18:48
  can sit over the top of it. Yeah, so good.
• 1:18:52
  All righty, you guys, you know where to find her.
• 1:18:54
  So highly recommend go reach out to her and go connect with her
• 1:18:56
  in the DMS. As always, DMS always open.
• 1:18:59
  If there's something that even like landed, I feel like Alyssa
• 1:19:01
  would probably love to just even hear something that landed.
• 1:19:04
  Maybe there's a nugget of something that she said, part of
• 1:19:06
  the framework that she talked about, or maybe an analogy that
• 1:19:09
  she gave that really landed for you.
• 1:19:11
  I feel like for me, obviously for yourself, even having a
• 1:19:14
  podcast, we talking to a void. We never really get to see the
• 1:19:16
  other side of the conversation. And so I always, always
• 1:19:20
  recommend you guys to reach out to her, reach out to me.
• 1:19:23
  The thing that I know from my entire journey, both personal
• 1:19:26
  development and business wise is to have a transformation really
• 1:19:30
  at the deepest level is to be witnessed in it.
• 1:19:32
  And so even to your point of the membership, whether it's through
• 1:19:34
  reaching out to one of us and having a 1 to 1 witnessing with
• 1:19:37
  us, it really just helps to really solidify that depth on a
• 1:19:41
  whole other level. So highly recommend that you
• 1:19:43
  guys. And obviously, we will see you
• 1:19:44
  next week. And, as always, stay ambitious.