Latest / Beyond the Summit with Amir Golshani / The End of the Regime: Canada’s Role in Iran’s Collapse | Peter MacKay

Transcript

The End of the Regime: Canada’s Role in Iran’s Collapse | Peter MacKay · Beyond the Summit with Amir Golshani

• Amir Golshani: Welcome back. Today on Beyond the Summit, we are exploring the intersection of national sovereignty and human dignity. Joining us is a man who has shaped the very fabric of Canadian leadership, Peter McKay, former Minister of Foreign Affairs, National Defense and Justice. sit here at a critical juncture, a 2026 ceasefire that feels more like a pause than peace. 180 % inflation in Iran. Peter McKay, former Minister of Foreign Affairs, National Defense and Justice. and a Canadian economy at the crossroads. Peter, it's an honor to have you here. Peter MacKay: Thank you, Amir, and thank you for those very kind words. It certainly is a volatile time just about everywhere you look, but certainly as a Canadian, in spite of our economic challenges, our own security concerns, really nothing compares to what is happening in Iran, in the Straits of Hormuz, and really throughout the region. Nothing we've seen in our lifetime, certainly. Amir Golshani: Yeah, I appreciate that. I want to start with the why behind the careers we often see the titles, but rarely the catalyst. You have brokered the merger of parties, led military war and served as the nation's top lawyer. But looking back at the young Crown attorney in Nova Scotia, what was the specific moment or moments you saw that convinced you? that your life belonged in service of Canadian sovereignty and global security. Peter MacKay: That's a great question, Amir. And in fact, it goes back even further because I grew up in a single parent home and my mother, much like my wife Nazanin, was an activist and an advocate for women's health, children's rights. And father was, while estranged, member of parliament and later a in the government of Brian Mulrooney. Like a lot of I had no intention of following in my father's footsteps, I, as you mentioned, was practicing law and later working as a Crown attorney. And to answer your question directly, it was some of the inequities ⁓ ⁓ of our justice system within the ⁓ system that I was working that convinced me that perhaps the most direct route to bring about change, to bring about a greater sense of equality and justice and fairness, was to work inside government rather than continue to labor within the system that I felt was broken. Amir Golshani: this is great, to see how your career has evolved, talk about Iran and what's going on there, a The human cost is being felt acutely in Iran right now. With the news out of Washington and Islamabad, the world is holding its breath. We are currently seeing a fragile ceasefire and the first rounds of negotiation in Islamabad and not clear if there would be any other rounds. The regime will spin this as a survival victory. From a defense and intelligence perspective, is this a strategic pause for the regime to regroup or is there a real opening here for Iranian people to exploit? From a defense and intelligence perspective, is this a strategic pause for the regime to regroup or is there a real opening here for Iranian people to exploit? Peter MacKay: Well, that's a very detailed question. Let me answer it this way. would appear, and of course, much of what we're relying on ⁓ publicly sourced information as opposed to any kind of intelligence briefings or inside information coming out of the White House or coming out of Tehran. And so ⁓ you are well aware, both countries, but I would suggest more so coming from the regime in Tehran. is a lot of misinformation, a lot of spin, a lot of effort to misdirect the public as to what is actually happening. suspect that the Iranian is absolutely collapsing. The inability to move ⁓ energy the straits of Hormuz or otherwise is putting pressure on the Iranian regime. on the economy and sadly, of course, on the people of Iran who are feeling the brunt of this entire conflict as they have for 47 years living in isolation because of the regime's mismanagement, corruption and violence. And so where we are, as you've asked, is a stalemate for certain, a game in North American terms that we would sometimes call chicken where these two countries have been heading towards each other. in a military conflict. And yet, state the obvious, Amir, ⁓ Americans, of course, have much, much superior firepower as they have demonstrated, hitting strategic targets, eliminating the leadership, and of now controlling much of the airspace and ability to move products in and out of Iran. So I would say they... Amir Golshani: Right. Peter MacKay: from the very beginning have had the upper hand. Now what they do with that, how this is much more difficult to predict. The regime in my view seem much more likely to double down and continue to express an intransigence. In other words, they will go to the limit no matter what the cost. The regime in my view seem much more likely to double down and continue to express an In other words, they will go to the limit no matter what the cost. The Americans, of course, will be under pressure themselves from their own Congress and House of Representatives and their population to not continue in a war that could drag on as we've seen in other conflicts in Iraq, Afghanistan, other parts of the world. so that's I say this is a bit of a stare down at this point. But the I think, ⁓ on the of many is that ⁓ we would a collapse. Amir Golshani: See you later. Peter MacKay: Frankly, we would see a regime that is under such pressure realizes that there is nowhere for them to go now, that they would essentially give in and allow for a transition to what everybody wants and desires. And that is some system of democracy where the people of Iran can choose their own leaders. Amir Golshani: Right. you mentioned a great point. ⁓ the same front, the regime has lost significant petrochemical and steel manufacturing capacity and is under a naval blockade. ⁓ a strategic standpoint, is the maximum pressure campaign actually working or it is just pushing the regime into a more dangerous corner with nothing left to do, as you mentioned? Peter MacKay: Well, I think the pressure has been on them from the very beginning and the absolute possibility that those who tried to assert leadership, those who even tried to negotiate ⁓ in jeopardy, just to put it that way. Will this have the desired effect ⁓ enforce an outcome that I referred to earlier as a collapse or a capitulation? No one can say for sure. ⁓ No one can even give accurate depictions of the ability of the Iranian regime to continue in any sort of a military campaign. They seemingly can launch rockets, ballistic missiles, but at a much ⁓ and ⁓ pace. An interesting point here, Amir, is the decision by the regime some weeks ago to start hitting ⁓ countries that were aligned with the Western world, with America or Israel in particular. that has caused a shift in the dynamic because even countries that were acquiescing to ⁓ regime, ⁓ comes immediately to mind, have turned significantly away from the influence of Hezbollah. closer to Israel, what's been happening in the Palestinian territories, with Hamas, they have been significantly degraded, really defeated essentially. And so, ⁓ you can, it's too early to start unpacking all of the knock-on effects of what has happened, but ability to use proxies outside of their own territorial boundaries, to influence to take part in this regime of terror the West, Amir Golshani: Right. Peter MacKay: that has been very, very much weakened to the point of being much, much less a concern for others. So there are some positives coming out of this, but of course the ultimate outcome is that Iran is free and democratic that this ⁓ regime that has inflicted so much harm, not only to itself as a country, but to the entire region and ⁓ entire world might fall. Amir Golshani: Right. So in my previous conversation with Nazanin, we discussed the regime's control tactics. Divided equals control. So do you find that the West's biggest failure is a lack of unity or lack of imagination regarding what a free Iran could actually look like? Peter MacKay: And the short answer is yes. I don't think that there has been a great deal of time or effort on the part of Western countries, those who are more seized, you know, at the State Department in Canada and the Foreign Affairs Department to unpack a truly united, free country in Iran looks like. And in part, I say this, Amir, somewhat with sadness, Iran has been a dark spot on the map for many, many Western countries for many, many years, basically since Khomeini came back from France and ⁓ the country in that revolution in And ⁓ so hasn't been a lot of information. I Canada, for example, closed ⁓ the there ⁓ when was in government, and there been less and less free flowing information. And Iran has been seen as a ⁓ you know, a source of terror and a source of foreign interference. so for that reason, I don't think ⁓ even who follow Iran closely, and I do now more than ever before, even in fact, when I was in government because of my Nazanin and her work. So there's a greater understanding in some circles, but I don't believe there's a consensus. And you use the word unity. What a united... opposition looks like in Iran, I don't think is even properly understood by those who are participating in the efforts to try to consolidate bring the opposition together. There is ⁓ tensions among certain groups, certain ethnic groups, monarchists, Baluch, those who come from the Kurdish part Iran. And some of those don't go back just pre-revolution, they go back much further. And so, and not making a ⁓ fair comparison here, but I've often thought my own Amir, is Scottish and Irish. And ⁓ they, various in their history, those countries, those nations have been very divided, clannish, fighting internally, failing to be able to rally Amir Golshani: Alright. Peter MacKay: plan or a leadership. That seems to have been the fate of Iran for many, many years. The inability to put aside all differences, as difficult as that may be, and come together. And what is tragic in my estimation at this point in time is that this could very well be the best chance that Iran will have to overcome this horrible plague that has been thrust upon them by the regime and come together in this moment to replace this regime and work through some of these difficulties ⁓ negotiations, through conferences, through the unification of people in such a way that they can agree on the majority of what's needed to set up the democratic and governance institutions to ⁓ to help bring the country forward. Amir Golshani: I love it, you very well said. I appreciate that. As you mentioned, Canada made the decision to close the Canadian embassy in 2012. Today, Canada has designated the IRGC as a terrorist organization. Beyond the label, what is the one tangible action that current Canadian government should take tomorrow to hit the regime where it actually hurts? Peter MacKay: Well, I think participating in the sanctions is the most obvious example, but actually more. There are more sanctions, obviously, that could be brought to bear. The enforcement of sanctions, the seizure of assets, the expulsion ⁓ regime officials, some of whom came to Canada with falsified documents who committed fraud. Their removal, I think, would send a strong signal that the... Iranian diaspora would not be intimidated or harassed in in our country And so there's I don't think there's any one thing to answer your question. I think there are many things that would be done in in or consistently with ⁓ countries So it you know, it's monetary action Expulsion and working collectively to keep the pressure ⁓ the regime on the positive side of the ledger And I think my wife would agree with this. If Canada were to offer in some fashion to convene a conference or to support a conference somewhere, either in the region or in North America, providing security, of course, to try to bring about that unified approach that I spoke of earlier, even if it's on an interim basis to say, okay, U.S., here's the plan. Here is the way forward. Here is a comprehensive approach that we are prepared to take the Iranian diaspora, as a ⁓ group of opposition to replace and stand up a provisional government inside the country because it has proven so difficult. The mass casualties and slaughter of innocent people, of ⁓ of children, women who ⁓ courageously took to the streets and so under the, you know, Amir Golshani: It is. Peter MacKay: the feeling that the West would be there for them and that the West would support them. And so the US and Israel in participation went part of the way, but then, you know, there was no feeling of a follow-up plan that was going to allow the regime to be ushered out of power. Amir Golshani: Yeah. Right, no, I really love that. So one of the points that you mentioned that I hear a lot, you know, that has created kind of disappointment among Iranian diaspora, specifically in Canada, to see people who are related to Islamic regime, ⁓ they have brought millions of dollars of ⁓ money, you know, from that country, and they're living here, a luxury life, absolute freedom, and still Canadian government is not doing anything effective with the removal or to investigate at least to see, know, where are the sources of this money. Peter MacKay: Amir, I agree with you. It's very disheartening. You know, ⁓ three short words, kick them out. Send them back to Iran. you know, people of Iran are ⁓ living in apprehension of may happen. You know, there's all around them, bombs dropping. Why should these very individuals or relatives of those implicated in the of the Iranian regime be given safe haven? Amir Golshani: 100%. Peter MacKay: Why should these very individuals or relatives of those implicated in crimes of the Iranian regime be given safe haven? in a free democratic country like Canada, in a free democratic country like Canada, who supports the people of Iran, not the regime. so there is a much more proactive approach that could be taken by our government, by immigration officials, by the RCMP, by CSIS. And countries that ⁓ in West, like Canada, they share intelligence. They know who these people are. You know, the Five Eyes community have been gathering information for years. You know, we've been working in concert with those allies. And so many cases, most cases, I would suggest we know who they are and where they live. And in some cases, you're right. The amount of money stolen the Iranian people and brought here and put in bank accounts, you know, it's very, ⁓ you know, to think that we would allow that to happen. in some cases, The amount of money stolen from the Iranian people brought here and put in bank accounts, it's very, very, troubling to think that we would allow that to happen. We have ways now to seize bank accounts, to take those assets, to hold them in abeyance at least until such time as there was a government that it could be returned to. Amir Golshani: Peter, what do you think is the reason behind the lack of proper action by the government? what do you think is the reason behind the of proper action by the government? Peter MacKay: Yeah, that's a great question, Amir. And I don't know that I can give you a fulsome answer other than to suggest that government itself has just chosen not to be as proactive as it should. And I will admit, you know, when I was in government, we talked about the closure of the embassy. listed the Quds Force. We should have gone further and listed the IRGC. We should have done more. And simple answer is that There are so many priorities, competing priorities amongst government. ⁓ the period that I was there, not to make excuses, but we were prosecuting the war in Afghanistan. We were working closely with allies to try to curtail terrorism outside our borders and in some cases inside. ⁓ not nearly ⁓ the of a change in Iran were not really seen as about to happen. Now they're happening. Amir Golshani: All Peter MacKay: Now there is a hinge point or a pivotal moment for governments to act. I fear that there are so many other distractions still happening. Ukraine, what's happening in the Straits of Taiwan with China. There are conflicts on the continent of Africa, none in my view offer the greatest opportunity to take terrorist actors off the board. and to move forward with some sort of a cohesive plan, as I said before, that will bring about a lasting and durable peace for Iran. Amir Golshani: Right, right. So Peter, it's hard to project strength abroad when things feel shaky at home. Let's talk about Canada. You've recently warned that Canada is moving from a leader to a liability on the world stage. As a former foreign minister, how do we restore our leverage if negotiations become You've recently warned that Canada is moving from a leader to a liability on the world stage. No man's land. Can Canada afford to be a moral leader on Iran if we aren't an economic leader at home? Can Canada afford to be a moral leader on Iran if we aren't an economic leader at home? Peter MacKay: Yeah, I completely agree with that, premise of that question. And it starts with our own natural resources. Much like Iran, Canada is gifted with massive oil and gas reserves, but more so we minerals, the critical minerals that the world needs at this time. We also have a very, blessed economy when it comes to agri-food, fish, fresh water. space, have enormous landmass. All of these things should make Canada a world leader economically. We're in the G7. We live next to the largest economy in the world. We have all of these incredible natural advantages that we haven't, frankly, capitalized on. We should be a much more productive and competitive country. And it comes down to one thing, and I don't want to oversimplify it, but it's been poor government governance, decision-making. You will recall famously that the liberal government saying, you know, there was no business case for Canada to become a world leader in LNG export. And so the decision 10 years ago to stop the building of pipelines and the pursuit of energy exportation has hobbled our economy. It has made us weak. and unable to not only turn a surplus and generate economic wealth and activity and be able to contribute more, frankly, when you have that kind of wealth. poor decision-making. How do we turn that around? The current government is sending the right signals. The current prime minister, who ⁓ think we have to remember was the economic advisor for the Trudeau government for five years. was his handpicked choice to be at the UN to lead the climate change He ⁓ has abandoned ⁓ of those philosophically held positions and is now talking more openly about the and gas industry and ⁓ expanding network of pipeline and export capabilities. moving into defense in a much more meaningful way, investing significant dollars in defense. question is, where does the money come from? But now embroiled, as you suggested, and I apologize for the length of this answer, but there's a lot there. The issue in terms of trade and the the punitive tariffs that have been placed on Canada by the US government have put us in a very precarious position. Amir Golshani: No, no, no, this is great. Peter MacKay: We do massive amounts of trade with the United States, as you would expect. I mentioned earlier, large economy, proximity, same language, history. All of this lends itself to the most profitable free trade agreement on the planet. And yet since the arrival, the return of Donald Trump just over a year ago, we have received tariffs on things like lumber and steel and softwood. ⁓ aluminum cars, all of which are being outside of USMCA, the KUSMA agreement that allowed for free trade. ⁓ Mexico entered into negotiations to try to remedy their issues. Canada has not. We have had blowups ⁓ with things ads that were in the United States by the government of Ontario. We've had a speech at Davos where our prime minister essentially suggested a new world order where we were going to work with middle powers and move away from over-reliance on the United States. now double clutching, as I say, on ⁓ military equipment like the F-35, modern fighter aircraft from the US. All of this leaves a lot of moving parts as we try to cobble together. and salvage this incredible trade deal that brings enormous wealth and quite frankly, power and influence to our country. And so it's precarious right now. I mean, no means comparisons ⁓ other parts of the world, but we stand to lose this enormous advantage in addition to all of the natural resources advantages. We had a market that was open to us. that brought enormous wealth to our country, that is no longer certain. Amir Golshani: Right. Very well said. many analysts believe that return of Donald Trump as a president and putting tariffs on Canada specifically could be the best thing that happened for Canada, know, in terms of wake up call, you know, to take control of economy and, know, so redirect country in the right path. Hopefully they take this as opportunity, as you clearly mentioned, but expanding on that Canada is consumer driven economy and the US is our lifeblood. Yet we are stuck between a China that wants to export and a US market that is becoming increasingly protectionist. How does a Canadian leader navigate this without losing our economic sovereignty? Peter MacKay: Yeah, it's a very, very narrow path to try to walk without further enraging United States. I want to come back to something that you said, though, in terms of the United States giving us this opportunity because of Trump's aggression and his very intemperate language calling and 51st state. All of that really offended Canadians, rightly so. And yet ⁓ would suggest, Amir, that we need to try put the emotion aside and really bring focus to sitting down substantive terms about the importance of salvaging this trade agreement, not just for Canada, but for the United States as well. Their economy will feel Amir Golshani: Right. Peter MacKay: the hurt as well. Let's not forget that tariffs placed on Canadian goods are paid for by Americans. And we've seen a court decision that has told the US administration they have to repay some of those tariffs that were outside the boundaries of the agreement. ⁓ ⁓ into too much detail on how done, I do believe that we have to take ⁓ some the political rhetoric put it aside, try not to be distracted by some of the things others, not just the president, have said about Canada, difficult that is in our own personal lives, in our businesses, our relationships. But this is business at the level. Getting that free trade agreement back in place, whether it's between all three because Mexico is part of this. or it comes back to a bilateral, which is how the original free trade agreement had been set up. I think of no more important issue. Why? I come back to the earlier characterization. It is the ⁓ most trade agreement in the world. And as you've described it, the Canadian economy is very reliant on exports. Can we send more to other parts of the world, including Europe, including the Middle East? It is the ⁓ most lucrative trade agreement in the world. And you've described it, the Canadian economy is very on exports. Asia Pacific, yes, and we do now. But if you put all of those other trade countries together, all of them, even the big economy of China and Japan, doesn't measure up in any meaningful way to the trade agreement that we have with the United States. It's north of a billion dollars a day. It's massive in its impact across every sector in our economy. Now, does that mean we should agree to a Amir Golshani: Alright. Peter MacKay: many concessions and a bad deal for Canada? No. But you can't negotiate this through the media. can't negotiate, certainly, while trading insults. And fear, my opinion only, that there is a lot of domestic politics playing out. So it's very popular to kick the Americans right now or to say things ⁓ about Trump. Will that help when it comes to sitting down face to face and ⁓ out deal? Amir Golshani: No. Peter MacKay: I don't think so. It feels good at the time, but has longer term repercussions, with a mercurial and ⁓ impulsive president who listens incessantly to what everybody is saying all the time. I don't know when that man sleeps. Amir Golshani: So 100%, 100 % agree with all what you said. So actions speak much louder than words, and I hope it's not become something like elbows up thing. And I don't know what would be the more effective role of opposition party if they can play a better role. What's your read on that? Peter MacKay: Well, Amir, I've never liked that expression. And I played a lot of hockey over the years, like a lot of Canadian kids growing up. And I know the one thing that you can do to hurt your team and that's to get your elbows up and cause a penalty. And then you're sitting in the penalty box and your team is shorthanded. That's what elbows up means to me. I mean, I get it. We need to be aggressive in the defense of Canada's interest, but that characterization really doesn't capture what we need to do collectively as a country. And what we need to do is yes, you've suggested, include more people in the discussion. To the prime minister's credit, he has assembled a team. It's late. We're months away from actually sitting down. I'm not 100 % sure that this is going to make a major difference. Maybe I'm I hope I'm wrong. Premiers of all of our provinces and territories can play an important role and they seem quite closely aligned although to keep that that group together at times because they obviously have in some cases Divergent interests, you know bands on on American alcohol has been contentious lately We saw premier of Saskatchewan Scott mo make a trip with the prime minister to China And I want to come back to that in a moment because, you know, I mentioned all of the other countries that we do trade with. China is not going to replicate the United States. Plus, they are the largest threat for direct foreign interference at stated by me, stated by, you know, Canadian security officials and a judge that did an inquiry into this. ⁓ And also, you know, it's it's been singled out as an is not going to replicate the United States. Plus, they are the largest threat for direct foreign interference at not stated by me, stated by, Canadian security officials and a judge that did an inquiry into this. Amir Golshani: All right. Peter MacKay: irritant to the United States. The president has canceled his trip to China. Now they'll come back to dealing with China, I'm sure, in the near future. We go there, we don't get anything substantial. We got a lift on the ban on canola and maybe a few other concessions, and we're going to allow Chinese foreign vehicles to come, foreign-made vehicles to come into Canada? not sure that's a great idea. So the trade-offs that we appear to be pursuing, of which in the short term may give Canadian products a destination. I the focus on getting this renewed agreement has to the top priority. And that takes a lot of attention and a lot of attention away from other things as we spoke earlier. But the Canada-U.S. relationship Amir Golshani: Right. Peter MacKay: after the health and well-being and security of Canadians has to be almost top of the pile on the prime minister's desk when it comes to how to make our Canada the strongest that it can be. Amir Golshani: Absolutely. Peter, as an immigrant, as an Iranian Canadian, I see a Canada today that feels different. Rising crime, mismanaged immigration policies, and a G7 ranking that is slipping. As a former justice minister, where did we lose the plot? How do we return to being the safe haven that attracts the best skills and the best minds? I see a Canada today that feels different. Rising crime, mismanaged immigration policies, and a G7 ranking that is slipping. As a former justice minister, where did we lose the plot? How do we return to being the safe haven that attracts the best skills and the best minds? Peter MacKay: Yeah, that's a, that's an absolutely critical question. you know, ⁓ to be brief on the criminal justice side, we, I believe have, ⁓ underfunded in many cases, our policing agencies, our prosecution and defense systems. We've, ⁓ we have weakened many of the laws ⁓ when came to the enforcement against violent criminals. We used to have a system that held people to a higher account, Amir. That is to say that if you committed crimes of violence, sexual violence, particularly against children and vulnerable people, if you used weapons the commission of offenses, you went to jail. And in many cases for a significant period of time, you were separated from law-abiding citizens. And there was that knowledge that if you got caught, If you did these things and were convicted, you were going away, in some cases for the rest of your life as you should. And yet image of having a system that holds people to account is being questioned. We've seen decisions from courts that in some cases now are creating an almost two tier system where if you're a landed immigrant without status yet in this country, you commit an offense. The judge will take into consideration the fact that you don't have status yet because you might get deported if you're convicted or if you have to serve a significant sentence. That to me seems completely counterintuitive to the protection of the public. And that is the primary purpose of our system, is the protection of the public. Yes, ⁓ fairness. taking into account circumstance. That to me seems completely counterintuitive to the protection of the public. And that is the primary purpose of our system, is the protection of the public. but it has to be about public safety. And have seemingly lost the plot in some cases where ⁓ seeing considerations around a person's origins, a person's circumstances that ⁓ and this is after conviction, this is in sentencing hearings, ⁓ the harm done to the victim and to society writ large. And so I... I am not comfortable with where the system is headed. I think it undermines public confidence. I think it undermines in some cases even innocent people's willingness to participate, to report crime, let alone to show up and give evidence ⁓ and in ways that need as jurors, as witnesses, as people who are prepared to step up and speak out for ⁓ the harms that have been done. So, I mean, that's a bit of a long answer, but it's massively complicated. these are deliberate decisions that are taken by government, by officials, by judges, participants in the justice system. Amir Golshani: It's very necessary. And the question is that what is the realistic solution for this? Because people are not feeling safe anymore, you know, as they used to be. And it's a real, real critical issue. Peter MacKay: Yeah, I mean, there's no simple, again, no silver bullet. But I do believe, I've always believed that some crimes deserve mandatory minimum penalties so that there is a clear message. We have them. We have many of them in the criminal code. You know, minimum penalty that applies for a type of offense and type of offender if they're, ⁓ know, if they have multiple convictions already, if they continue to put public at risk. by using violence, by using weapons. We've seen the courts almost consistently knock these mandatory minimum penalties down, call them unconstitutional. You the one that I find very troubling as a parent is sexual against children. To me, you touch a child for sexual purpose. ⁓ The starting Amir, is jail. You're going to jail. The determination is for how long. based on the individual circumstances and the harm done, which is always ⁓ not physical, emotional. bringing a system of justice that reflects the ⁓ public of the harm done and having who are committed ⁓ to that Technology has become both a scourge and an enabler when it comes to tracking criminality. Amir Golshani: Right. Peter MacKay: And that's certainly true of financial crimes and the ability to, you we spoke earlier about ill-begotten gains Iranian regime officials in Canada, ⁓ financial transactions, but also things that are just so insidious, like online luring of children and using internet to exploit children, to put in vulnerable positions. So that requires resources, it requires investment, it requires getting into positions influence, capable people who are committed to that pursuit of justice. And again, it frankly, government of Canada making it a priority, setting ⁓ their attention ⁓ the justice system. for the betterment of society and for the protection of our most vulnerable people. Amir Golshani: Yeah, exactly. There should be political will to make it a priority. ⁓ Peter MacKay: Political will is sometimes very elusive. We're driven, and I can say this now, and I think I've always believed it, that if you're pursuing polls for a short-term ⁓ popularity, you're not governing. ⁓ requires difficult decision-making sometimes that may not be popular amongst the general public, but will pay massive dividends in the future. And like free trade were not popular at the time. Many of the criminal justice system changes that we made in government, I dare say, they been left in place, would have protected ⁓ people and given Canadians a greater sense of confidence in their justice system. But they were struck down or not supported by the current government. Amir Golshani: Absolutely. Getting back to Iran's subject, if the regime in Tehran fell tomorrow, what is day one plan that the international community and Canada specifically must ready to prevent another power vacuum? Peter MacKay: Yeah, and I am not an expert in this area, but, you know, in general terms, preparation to that point, I would love to see more collaboration, more effort on the part of diaspora groups, putting aside some of the age-old irritants and grudges and coming together because, know, let's hope and pray, Amir, that that moment arrives. I know in our household, That is what Nazanin devotes so much of her time as she has throughout her adult life or that moment where the regime is gone. But then what does it look like? And will other countries, including Canada, recognize an incoming provisional government? And so the groundwork has to be laid now. There has to be some legitimate rallying around of I think it'll be a group of individuals. I don't think there is one figurehead who can emerge. I think there can be people who are obviously very influential and have a following, but I think it is going to take people and ⁓ you know, ⁓ of the ⁓ very capable individuals with legal, diplomatic leadership skills, people who have ⁓ their courage in recent years. to speak out, to speak up, bringing, getting them together a group is committed to that democratic future. That to me is what should be happening. And it is happening to some degree, I'm encouraged ⁓ to And you ⁓ probably more about that than I do, but ⁓ I that commitment is there. It is ⁓ the chafing the ongoing infighting, I dare say, that is preventing that moment from being realized when that vacuum occurs and when the regime is finally pushed out. Amir Golshani: Absolutely, 100%. And as you mentioned beautifully, you know, it can be the best and maybe the only opportunity that people can get together in order to liberate Iran. Peter MacKay: And you know, Amir, if I might just add another point, I don't think, we spoke a little about this, but I don't think the Western world, Canadians, Americans, English, Australians, Europeans, I don't think they truly appreciate massive spillover effect that the removal of that regime would have even in their own countries. To take that malign, malignant influence I don't think the Western world, Canadians, Americans, English, Australians, Europeans, don't think they ⁓ truly appreciate the massive spillover effect that the removal of that regime would have even in their own countries. away from promotion of terrorism, foreign interference and spying and intimidation in all of these Western countries and more, it's our interest. It's not just out of a sense of the goodness of our heart that we wanna see the Iranian people liberated. It has right here at home. And I put my hand and say, I'm ⁓ biased. I'm in a conflict of interest to say this, but the Iranian people have contributed enormously to the world. They, I mean, really responsible for the first Bill of Rights with Cyrus the Great. When it comes to science, medicine, inventions that have served all of us, Western civilization and far afield, I mean, the Iranian people up until 1979 were such an important actor. the Iranian people up until 1979 were such an important actor. You know, with plus the energy, plus the resources, the culture, the history, all of it lends itself to a country that should be welcomed into the family of nations, not acting as an outsider and trying to commit, you know, atrocities, both at home and abroad. And so it to bring Iran back. almost said to make Iran great again, I won't use that expression, but ⁓ bring Iran back. ⁓ plus the plus the resources, the culture, the history, all of it lends itself to a country that should be welcomed into the family of nations, not acting as an outsider to a place where they can be net positive contributors in many, walks of life, ⁓ huge, enormous benefit to the world, to the world community, not just the region, not just themselves. Amir Golshani: Beautiful. I really love that. is absolutely a win-win situation for Iranian people and international community to have liberated Iran. Absolutely. Peter, is there anything that we haven't talked about, but you think it's 100 % critical to talk about at this moment? It is absolutely a win-win for Iranian people and international community to have liberated Iran. Peter MacKay: think we've covered a lot of ground, Amir. I think the moment is here. This is such a pivotal period, I would suggest, in the coming weeks. What has transpired already, in spite of the pain and in spite of the obvious turmoil that's happening in Iran, I still believe that there is a burning hope and a desire on the part of Iranian people, both inside and outside the country, for this regime to be completely disposed and replaced. you know, on a personal note, I not with the same passion as my wife and you and others, I hope that we will see the openness ⁓ and ⁓ welcoming nature of people to allow the world to come and see what you and others know of that country, of its greatness, of its history, of its contributions. and its desire to be amazing country, 90 million people unleashed in positive ways would be such an incredible gift from God if this were to happen. Amir Golshani: Right. We have covered policy, economy and war, but at the heart of all your work is a single concept. Peter, after all the offices you have held and the crisis you have managed, what does word freedom mean to you personally? Peter MacKay: World freedom means allowing children to grow up without fear, allowing children to be their absolute best selves, not living in fear or repression or prejudice having concern themselves with limitations placed on them by their government. We take so much for granted, Amir. even with the challenges that we have in our country today, still step our doors every morning, go to school, go to places of work, participate in sport and art and live lives with all of the freedoms that people should enjoy. It should be a basic human right. And as I said before, Iran recognized this arguably before much of the free world. There was a constitution that entrenched rights, basic human rights. Remarkable, really. I we repatriated a constitution and a charter in the ⁓ Iran was doing this centuries before other countries like Canada. Amir Golshani: Peter, it is an absolute honor to have you on Beyond the Summit. Thank you so much for your time. Peter MacKay: Such a pleasure Amir, I hope to see you in person soon. Amir Golshani: ⁓ Thank you.