Latest / The MeatEater Podcast / Ep. 224: Size Matters

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Ep. 224: Size Matters · The MeatEater Podcast

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: This is a meat eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listening podcast. You
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: can't predict anything presented by on X hunt creators are
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: the most comprehensive digital mapping system for hunters. Download the
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: Hunt app from the iTunes or Google play store. Now
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: where you stand with on x okay, first thing we
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: gotta start out with is uh um two fish and
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: related things, never to get into the real meat of
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: the show. Here with the two fish related things on
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: episode to two two, which is a couple of goal.
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: We just did an episode to to three and someone
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: pointed out that we should have commemorated it more carefully
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: because it was a rifle caliber. So the two two three.
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: But the two two two episode, which is all, isn't
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: there another? I believe there's a two two two? Yeah?
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: Search that up? Um. I I challenged the veracity. I
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: challenged the veracity of a man's email who wrote in
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: to say that he snagged a fishing line or snagged
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: a rod ice fishing in a hundred feet of water,
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: pulled up the rod, reeled up all the line and
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: lo and behold on the end of it is a
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: dead whitefish, and I was and I think I must
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: I somehow questioned the veracity of of his tail and
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: unless he went out that day with a rotten whitefish. Um,
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: he sent in photographs that made me that back them up.
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: So my apologies to his name is Steu Beard. My
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: apologies the uh Mr ste Beard that looks like a
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: legitimately rotten whitefish you found on the bottom of of
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: the lake. It's so rotten and looked that he was
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: kind of poking at it in the picture and it
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: doesn't want to quite seem to want to grab it. Um,
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: guy's not interested. This is not a ficient related one,
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: but I think that someone sent in as they sent in.
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: Did you see this, Yanni? A guy sent in a
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: turkey's gizzard? Hm, open, cut open you know what had
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: in it? A marble like a kid's marble. I believe it.
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: I'll put that picture on Instagram. So if you go
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: to Stephen Ronella on Instagram. The question is those you
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: think he was eating it too to add to like
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: the stones, yes, gizzard? Or did you think it was
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: some sort of dude that he hadn't seen before. It's
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: seven eight times bigger than a normal piece of that's
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: a great question, man. I hadn't thought about it like that. Yeah,
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: because it's definitely way bigger than the average piece of
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: stone that's in that gizzard. You know what he could
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: have thought it was? Do you know how they eat snails?
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: M hmm. I hadn't incurred to me that that was marble,
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: had like a little swar roll to it. It could
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: have been like a little snail. I found a bear
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: ship one time that was all Crayola crayons. Yeah, he
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: found a box of Crayola crayons. Um. Yeah, I think
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: you're probably correct. He wasn't picking it up as grit.
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: He thought he's eating something tasty. The last fishing thing
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: is a conundrum, the father and son conundrum that we
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: need to that they had asked that we weigh in on.
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: So this dude and his dad we're fishing, and they
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: both had lines out, and the old man gets distracted,
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: and the kid looks and his the old man's rods
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: going crazy while the old man's off talking to some guy.
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: So the kid runs over and reels the rod and
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: it's like some tanker four pound rainbow. H So, whose
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: fish is it? I think it's the old man's fish
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: really an unintended rod. Yeah, I'm gonna he rigged and
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: he did. He cast it out. It's like, I don't know.
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: If I saw like a video of what was going on,
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: maybe I'd have a different opinion. But I don't know.
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: Maybe this old man was like barely distracted so that
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: his listeners don't think that it's just you and I
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: are sitting here talking to each other all day. I
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: think we should ask our guests, you guys have anything
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: to say, please keep mind he's a representatives here from
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: I would actually defer to you guys. We have three
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: representatives here from the Boone and Crocket Club. So they
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: spent all all day. Uh, they sit there and look
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: at um, you know, whether or not to accept things
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: in the record books and stuff. So I feel like
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: these guys have like a moral uh, they sort of
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: have the moral high ground. You have the well you
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: have there, you have the credentials to weigh it out.
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: So so that let's say you guys were a fish.
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: Let's say you guys kept fish records and this is
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: a record fish and they come to you and be like,
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: here's this record fish, and You're like, clearly it's a
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: record fish, whose name do we put down? And and uh,
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: they tell you the story. A lot of times when
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: that happens, one'll take the ownership of the fish and
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: the other one will say they called it. Now, as
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: long as the person that called it had the fishing license,
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: they would be good, you know, when they followed all
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: the rules. A lot of times that's what a lot
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: of the father's sons do is though, like the sunnell,
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: shoot it or vice versa. And then we have a
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: thing where the father that could then take ownership, which
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: is basically just a sentence letting us know that, hey,
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: this person hook this fish and I'm the owner of it.
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: So we base everything off of the ownership of the
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: of the trophy. So that would mean, that's what I'm saying,
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: who owns the fish? They would have to decide. Yeah, Oh,
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: they would have to decide legally, isn't it whoever reels
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: the fish in, like, because there are certain states that
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: say if you hook it and landed at your fish
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: and it's on your bag limit, So I can't hook
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: a fish and hand it off. It had the legality
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: of it. So the kid that grabbed the rod, I
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: think legally it is his fish, but if he was
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: nice enough, to Kyle's point, he could allow his dad
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: to be listed as a secondary fisherman in this case,
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: assuming they both had the license is necessary for the fish.
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: I like that perspective on it. That like, let's say
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: he had pulled it in and then there was a problem,
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: like he retained I fish, he wasn't allowed to retain.
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: He wouldn't be able to be like, well, the game warden,
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: you better talk to my old man. It was his rod. Yeah,
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: the game ward is gonna be interested in who who
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: hookedn't who landed it? Yeah, alright, so it's the kids fish.
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: Thank you. Settle that problem for the family before you move.
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: Before you move on to to to Remington's triple deuce,
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: first center fire twenty two galiber in our country. There
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: you go, great John, he earned his key. Okay, now
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: we'll do intros. We're talking everybody from the we're talking
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: to folks on Buona Crocker Club. We're gonna explore this
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: whole thing up down sideways. But let's start out with
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: it like what do you what do you guys do
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: each of you? You know? So I'm Tony Shonen and
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: I'm the chief executive officer. Crockett, how long you held
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: that position? Um? About two weeks they just changed. I
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: was the chief of staff for twelve years and then
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: they just decided to change my death for whatever reason.
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: So anyway, I've been running the organizationization for about twelve
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: years and I've been thirty years the outdoor space. About
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: half of that was the for profit sector, half was
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: the nonprofit sector. UM. I went to my first shot
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: show when I was twenty one. I just went to
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: my thirty fifth. I should be get because some kind
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: of a prize, but they haven't offered me anything. Still
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: alive me too. That's a lot of like coming home
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: with like a weird flu. Yeah, I've managed to avoid
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: the weird flues, but uh, but no, So it's been
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: a good rite. UM had a video production company to
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: begin with, and then I went to work for Wonders
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: Wildlife that ran that operation down there, and uh then
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: to Buona. Crockett. Oh, but the Wonders well Life just
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: opened up. They were opened before and then when I
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: left as an executive director there, they shut it down
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: for remodel and then they just opened it up two
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: years ago, which I don't know if you guys been there,
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: but it's an awesome place. I keep hearing people that,
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: um that aren't easily impressed. He would say, it's like
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: really something. Yeah, no, it's it's an awesome I don't
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: know anything about it. Where what is it? And where
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: is it? Said, well, I'll tell you, I've never been there.
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: And now it's a it's a it's a it's a
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: museum and aquarium that was built. The first round was
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: in two thousand and one, and the original intent of
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: John Johnny Morris was to have a home for hunters
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: and anglers and and and all the stories and the
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: traditions surrounding that community. And UM and then UM, when
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: I left two thousand and seven, UM, Johnny wanted to
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: make it a bigger and benner place, and so that's
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: what he did. And so it's still a tribute to
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: the American sportsman and women of the country. But it's UM,
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: it's incredible. You just got to see it too. Something
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: really described. We had our two awards programs there the
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: last two times, like three miles of trail through there. Yeah,
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: is that the one that's down in Florida. It's in Springfield, Missouri.
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: You're thinking of, right, a hotel, right, something like that. No,
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: but yeah, just people know Johnny Morris is the you know,
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: the founder of Bass Pro Shop. That's a hell of
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: a story. Yeah, like that guy's life. He started out
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: like selling bait, selling bait at a marina or something
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: like that. He started in his dad's liquor stores with
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: an in cap. Yeah, and his dad had I don't
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: know how many liquor stores, doesn't or so in Springfield,
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: and he sold he sold off the inn cap and
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: actually there's a rendition of the very first uh uh
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: in cap that he had at in the museum at
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: one of his dad's lager stores. And so yeah, live
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: like a live bait and cap or a tackle in
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: I know, it's just a tackle in cap, you know.
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: He didn't he didn't like the uh the the tackle
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: that the local store was using. So he went to
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: Arkansas about a chuck little back put him in his
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: dad's stores, and that's where the whole story started. As
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: he called the Bass Pro Shop back then. Yeah, it's
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: always bass Bro as far as I know. I mean,
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: he's a little bit older than I am, but I've
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: known John for thirty years, forty years, and it's always
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: been bass pro. Yeah, he's sharp dude though. He's a
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: great guy. Neil find of Begger conservationist than he he is.
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: We should have him on, I'd like to. So if
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: you're listening, John, alright, So moving on, then there's Joannice
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: as though dealing poker. Good morning, and then moving over. Yeah,
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: my name is Kyle Lair. I'm the assistant director of
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: Big Game Records at the Boone and Rocket Club. I've
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: been there for a little over five years now, Assistant
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: director of Big Game. So my main duty is to
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: review all the entries that we get in. So we
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: have about four volunteer official measures throughout North America and
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: it's my job to basically make sure that every entry
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: that comes in basically has all its ta s Carlston
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: size dotted and then to make sure that you know
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: to be there they have any questions while they're scoring,
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: or any questions about our based policies and procedures stuff
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: like that, but mainly keep those entries moving through. So uh,
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: there's volunteer scores. We'll explain what this all means in
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: a minute, but plus minus a good a good majority
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: of them. I mean a lot of the people that
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: we train to be official measures want to be, and
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: so there a lot of what they measure though doesn't
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: quite I mean, it's it's pretty rare to actually harvest
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: to Boone and Crockett Club caliber animal. So a lot
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: of guys want to become official measures and they think
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: they're going to measure a ton and they might only
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: get a couple in their lifetime, but they enough to
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: enter the books. Yeah, but they they don't. The ones
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: that don't make it, we don't necessarily see. So they're
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: doing a lot of basically public contact for us. I
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: mean they're they're the people that most of the public
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: is going to see. They won't talk to Justin or
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: I or anyone else, they'll they'll meet our official measures.
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: So they're pretty much ambassadors for us. And and so
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: it's our job to make sure that they know what
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: they're doing and know how to do it. Yeah, my
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: old man was a scorer. I know he did it.
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: He was really active in Pope and Young. But I'm like,
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: I think, I feel like I know he did Commemorative
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: Bucks of Michigan. He scored for Pope and Young, and
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: I'm almost certainly scored for Boone and Crockett. Is that
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: something you can look up past measures? Yeah? Oh yeah, yeah.
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: We keep track of everyone who's been in managing if
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: he's registered in there not we're the hello last name,
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah right, I did some research. He was not on there,
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: Frank J. Ronell. We did. We did a database transfer
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: in two thousand and Some of the names could have
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: been lost, but generally speak, I mean, everybody brought their
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: stuff over. He had all the forms and maybe he
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: was just maybe he just nod. I know he measured
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: rifle stuff too. Well, you said it. CBM Commemorative Bucks
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: in Michigan is another great scoring organization. We worked with
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: close and a lot of these, so maybe he could
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: have been registered, state registered. They're they're trained to score
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: with our system. They use our system. They just may
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: not have gone through the the process of an actual
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: BNC certification, which I guess I should introduce myself. Sorry,
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: I'm justin Spring. I'm the director of Big Game Records.
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: I've been with BNC a little over ten years. Um
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: started with him at the assistant director, doing what Kyle
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: Um does now with the review of entry, and then
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: when he came on I transitioned into the director UM
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: basically help him out, make sure the pr side of
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: our official majors they're doing the best they can for conservation.
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: That's kind of what I'm tasked with UM, making sure
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: our scoring is uniform, that the the current science that's
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: coming out, we're not rewarding something that's actually a negative.
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: Which we'll get into further later on what we're looking for.
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: But that's that's my normal position with BNC and kind
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: of helping Kyle out and keeping all of our majors
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: doing the same thing for uniformity throughout the system. All right,
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: we get two deep, we should do this. I want
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: I want to bring people up to speed on something
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: cause I feel like a lot more people know. I
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: think that people know about Boon and Crock. They know
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: the scoring system. So let's just catch up on that
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: and what that means. And you know, if you're out
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: and about and you hear someone say that so and
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: so got a one eight white tail, so and so
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: got a four bowl, right, um, black bear, Like, what
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: does that mean? Okay? So the system was originally start
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: the very beginning, they thought wildlife was going extinct and
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: they were trying to find the biggest specimens which would
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: have gone in the National collection the Heads and Horns,
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: which is now what the Wonders of Wildlife, which we
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: still have that collection. But they were trying to find
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: the biggest to show our generation what was once on
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: the North American continent. They thought everything was going extinct.
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: So that was the beginning of our records. UM. You know,
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: through the work of early club members and conservationists and whatnot,
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: things started to turn around. UM. After World War Two,
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: conservation is really taken off. You had funding and everything
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: in place. People no longer wanted to go see dead
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: heads on the wall of the museum, and we had
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: this data set that we'd started. And so in nineteen
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: fifty they said, we need to create an equitable system
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: to evaluate big game and then we can use this
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: system to UM monitor conservation successes and failures across the
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: North American continent. So they brought together UM. There was
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: a couple of people at the time. There was a
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: taxidermist that had his own scoring system, and then there
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: was system UM which it never took off. It was
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: I can I remember the name of it. H Kyle. Well,
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: you had grantil Fits and Jimmy Clark. Jimmy Clark. It
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: was James Clark taxidermy, and so anybody that was a
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: taxidermy client of his would enter their trophies in a
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: competition and he'd do a banquet and give out awards.
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: So he made one. He made his own little system yep,
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: and and it was actually it was pretty well done. Um.
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: And then the the other side of it was the
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: more you know, widely known system. But anyway, these guys
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: come together, Boone and Crockett put together committee of five
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: of them that they kind of sat down and they said, okay,
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: let's let's look at the science of today and what
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: what are the traits that we see in a mature
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: male specimen that comes from an ideal habitat. And so
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: you look at nature, you have bilateral symmetry. Or that's
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: a huge question. Albody asked, why does BNC have deductions? Well,
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: if you look at nature, and if you're looking at something,
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: your eyes drawn to bilateral symmetry, and it's very common.
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: So the first thing they said is we have to
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: have left or right matching. That's a sign of healthy
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: habitat and healthy animal. And so they went through each
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: different category and kind of said, you know what, what
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: are the signs of a mature animal? What is calm
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: and what's caused by some form of stressor And they
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: came together with the system. You know, for moose, for example, Um,
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: we don't measure the length of points because the mature
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: moose has the palmation that gets bigger, and so a
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: very mature bull may not have long points. So they
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: didn't want to reward the length of a point on
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: a moose. Instead, they wanted to reward the palmation, which
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: seemed to be prevalent in the healthiest of the specimens.
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: So that was that was the basis, and then they
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: just took the number of inches of whatever they felt
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: was important, and that gave you a number, you know,
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: that was that was the original thing, is you know,
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: where where does this rank in terms of um when
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: it took a while to get there, yeah, I mean
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: the scoring system started out with length of horn and
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: what they called the girth of the base or the
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: circumference of base, and that was how they got an
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: idea of a sheet or a goat, And so it
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: started out kind of rudimentary, and they realized that in
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: order to be scientific there had to be more rigor,
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: and there had to be more measurements to get a
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: to allow again the public what they thought the animals
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: that were going extinct, to get a picture of what
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: that number was. And so if you say that number
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: one sixty year a one eight white tail, like you're
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: getting a picture in your head of what that is. Yeah,
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: well it becomes I think it becomes ingrained for people
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: who are exposed to it a lot. I remember when
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: I couldn't picture it right, I didn't know what it meant.
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: And then gradually over the years now if someone says
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: like a mule deer, I get a very specific image
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: in my head and it's like I understand it, And
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: I tell the o MS and are the official measure
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: we call moms and our course, I say, we've we've
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: created a system of measurements that you add and subtract
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: to get to some number that we've created. Now we
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: think that numbers important, and luckily other agencies and scientists
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: and stuff have have bawled into that, and the hunters
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: as well. I mean, we wouldn't have a database if
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: people didn't take the time to have their trophy measure.
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: So they've kind of all bawled into it. And so
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: you know, it's just like I sais just a set
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: of measurements that are add and subtracted to get to
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: the score. And and we say entered in as many
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: different things. Were no organizations as there is out there
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: because they all have an important mission and they're all
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: trying to accomplish something. We're just one of them, and
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: we've created this measuring system. And I think it's important
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: to to you know, go, you know, turning that timetable
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: back a little bit. The purpose that you know, these
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: guys didn't really kind of sit down and come up
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: with their scoring system because they needed something to do.
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: You know, there's a there, there's a there's a precursor
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: to all of that. When the club was found in seven,
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: they wanted to solve a problem, and that was the
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: fact that our wildlife populations were being decimated, our natural resource,
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: we're disappearing in the West, and um, you know, they
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: wanted to figure out a way to fix it. And
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: so you know, they started with the Yellowstone Preservation Act
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: in eighteen nine two. Then and when Roosevelt was president,
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: they got the National Wildlife Refuge System in the National
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: Forest Reserve. Was he involved with Boone and Crockett? He
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: was right, he founded the organization. Yeah, but so he
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: founded in eight seven. Yep. Okay, yep, yep. There's an
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: interesting story behind that too. Why the hell real quick,
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: I want to get back to your timeline there. But
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: um why did he so? Why Boone and why Crockett? Okay,
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: that's good, so I'll be you can come back to that. No, no,
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: actually that's a good place to go. Um. So when
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: the club was found in eighteen eighty seven, because Roosevelt
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: had been out west for three years. This was after
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: the death of his wife and his mother. Um. Yeah,
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: he was a real MoMA's boy. Yeah. Well, but anyways,
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: he was out and he had two ranches in Madora,
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: North Dakota, and that's when he wrote around in the
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: Dakotas and Wyoming and Montana and Idaho, and he saw
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: this you know, decimation I'm talking about, and so he
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: was upset about that. When he got back to New
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: York City in seven, he called around a group of
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: guys that, you know, we're influential in their respective areas
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: industry people, scientists, education folks, politicians, and but they were
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: all joined by one common threat, and that was that
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: they were they were hunters, they were sportsmen, and they
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: cared about conservation in the future. So they sat around
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: scratched your heads trying to figure out, you know, what
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: were they going to call this new organization. And at
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: the time, Daniel Boone and Davy Crocker were two most
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: prominent names in that space, you know, I mean they
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: were the most famous people someone in America. And he said,
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: named two hunters at that time. Yes, now he was
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: still probably on that list. We'll talk about that a
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: little bit, but I mean I think the uh, you know,
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: so that was how Buona Crowd came about. But anyway,
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: so back to the timeline, you know, um in asseence
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: the scoring system was created as justin indicated first of all,
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: to preserve a something that would show future generations that
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: actually once existed on the North American continent. But then
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: as our conservation efforts we're successful, state laws were implemented
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: um and our population started recovering and growing. The system
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: then became a majoring tool for how do we measure
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: the success of everything that we've done and so and
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: that's what it is today. You know, that's we're still
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: gathering this data. We're still sharing it with with state
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: wildlife managers, with academics, with folks that you know, why
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: is my ecosystem not working? In somebody else is they're
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: getting bigger male specimens and I am. You know, they
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: come to us and they ask us those questions and
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: then they can we can hook them up with those
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: people that are successful widlife managers and to help them out.
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: And UM, so there's a there's a distinct purpose there
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: besides just county inches and county numbers. Well have you
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: what have you guys like when you look at the records? Well,
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: I want to ask I need to ask you other
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: question about the records because um, explain the cut off?
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: Like you guys don't accept something until it's a certain size, right,
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: or do you accept all numbers? It's just they don't
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: get put into the book. So what we uh, what
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: we do have said that my question isn't clear enough
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: for people. We've said a threshold that says, if it
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: exceeds this particular level, it is worth recording as a
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: mature male specimen created by this habitat. If we were
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: clearly or if we were purely wanting to just ignized
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: the biggest and best. Why would we accept a threshold.
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: We'd say, send in your biggest mule deer this year,
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: and then we just keep track of what those biggest
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: ones were. But that's not what our mission is. We're
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: looking at any time a male specimen reaches a certain
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: age under certain conditions, this is the expression of its
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: secondary sexual characteristic a k antlers or horns. And so
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: we want to mark this down because we can't keep
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: track of everything taken in the country, So we have
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: to take a small small bit of this data set
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: and then we can extrapolate it out. Now we can't say, okay, Bozeman,
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: whatever Gallatin County, Montana, I say, historically it put out
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: ten book mule deer year and then it drops the five.
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: Our records can't say, oh, well, this is what happened.
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: But we can say, well, for thirty years it put
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: out ten and then all of a sudden, at this
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: point it dropped to five. What changed? And so that's
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: that's why we have a threshold, and we had to
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: set it somewhere. You know, when you you wanted to
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: say those mature male specimens that reach an age and
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: beyond breeding. Um prime breeding basically was the idea of
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: going for the super older ones because it have no
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: effect on the population. So that's what you wanted to
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: concentrate your your harvest pressure, and then we can record
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: how often those happened and try to extrapolate that to
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: habitat quality. So what story does it tell? UM? And
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: if you pick a species like let's say you pick
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: whitetail deer, does when you look at the submissions that
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: come in, like the number of deer every year, and
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: when do they start like diligently keeping records? The current
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: system was nineteen fifty That's what I was trying to
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: get what it wasn't real clear. We started for one
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: reason and then it was was redone in the fifties
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: to switch focus to really use as a gauge. So
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: nineteen fifties and that's when the current system came Out's
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: when the current system came out. So if you look
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: at from nineteen fifty two, now, UM do you like?
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: Does does the story that the record book entries tell
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: line up with the story as we generally understand it?
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: That meaning that UM starting I don't know when the
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: hell is started in the nineties you know, we just
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: started to have a lot bigger deer around the country
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: because management practices began to change. White tail deer, Well yeah, sorry,
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: white tail deer, because management practices began to change. Do
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: you like does your stuff reflect that? Yes? Absolutely? I
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: mean we're we're entering more every year and that is
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: a testament to the effective wildlife management by our state
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: and federal agencies. And um, that's kudos to them, because
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: I mean we're taking more big creatures in what what
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: are the things that you what are some animals that
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: you realize that more and more of them are making
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: the books? And what are animals where you're looking to
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: be like, man, something's not right because we're just not
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: seeing them anymore. Well, I guess before we get to
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: that one, Steve, I want to go a little bit
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: more into your white tail question because it's a great example.
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: So you have the nineties, right, Milo Hanson, the buck
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: out of bigger Saskatchewan world record typical white tail. At
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: that time, we were seeing more top end quality deer
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: than we are white tails as we are now now.
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: I would argue that what you saw was an overpopulation
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: of deer. We were too successful and then you have
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: a density. You know, the species is too dense, so
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: you're actually seeing a decline in the available resources to
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: go to antlers. Well, we had that big die off
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: a few years ago. Remember when e h D hit
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: the Upper Midwest would have never been seen in Wisconsin,
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: you know, across the across that area, and so there
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: was a huge die off of white tails. Well we
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: saw a corresponding dropping entries. But what we saw after
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: that was you had unexploited resources that that tucker buck
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: out of Tennessee, there was some deer that absolutely blew
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: the doors off because there was extra resources. And so
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: something like that is is what our records are real
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: cool about. And sometimes it gets lost because I can't
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: look at Missoula County on Mountain lion entries and make
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: a hypothesis off of one county because I don't have
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: a big enough data set. But when I look at
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: the entire Upper Midwest and see a sevent decline, that's
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: where our records fit in and doesn't really exist anywhere else.
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: So that now to get back to your question on
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: the species we're seeing um, caribou, caribooer dismal um. We
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: are just not seeing big caribou come in with our
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah we're not. We used to get a few thousand
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: every three years. We're lucky to get um d Yeah.
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: Now there you know you you look at the the
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: barren ground caribou in northern Alaska. They're starting to see
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: the populations go up. So I'm hoping that I start
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: to see that gradual uptick in our records. Um I
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: haven't noticed it yet. You know that's more Kyle now
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: doing the day to day review. But yeah, I mean
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: cariboo are bad bears. We're seeing We're seeing more and
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: bigger bears from all over North America, the South. The
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: said black bears, grizzly bears, brown bears. They're doing awesome
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: like bears are. So you see a lot of big
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: grizzlies coming out of Cannon in Alaska. Yeah, Alaska, Pope
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: and Young's world record broke twice, I believe. Yeah. Yeah,
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: they're the Commack bear. Yeah that was a brown bear. Ye,
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: Chris Commack killed the world record archery brown bear. We
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: haven't seen it break ours. But I mean again, you're
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: still seeing some of the biggest bears in the world. Um,
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: so that could tell you. Yeah, it's interesting because you
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: can't tell what it can tell you. On one hand,
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: you could look and say, um, hats off to Alaska,
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: right right, doing a great job. Other hand, you could
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: look and say, maybe they're not offering enough opportunity. But
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't really say that there because they're like increasing operation.
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: Was gonna say, increase is increased effort resulting in an
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: in an uptick in the number of trophies we're seeing. Yeah,
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: it's hard to untangle it. So and that that's again
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: where you have to look at it on a North
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: American scale. If you get too precise, you can kind
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: of miss it a little bit. With our data set,
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: we're just looking at overall trends, so I can say, like, oh,
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: the southeastern United States, we're seeing bears from a bun
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: to states that we've never seen before. They're getting very big,
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: they're doing healthy. Bears in that part of the country
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: are doing good. Kudos to you know, Carolinas and Arkansas
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: and all that. So you mentioned mountain lions, so out
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: of the let's just say, I mean they're only you know,
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: I don't know how many states have thirteen or fourteen
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: states have legal mountain lion seasons. Maybe our mountain lions
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: up or down, steady, steady, steady. Um. Missoula County, Montana,
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: that is the place to get a book skull mountain lion. Yeah,
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: just over the border in Idaho. Those are the two
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: top counties. They're staying stable. But that makes sense with
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: the biology of a mountain lion, because you can't have
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: too many big toms because they kill each other. So
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: it makes sense that that would be something that's kind
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: of a status quo, you know, across their range. From
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: what we've seen, it's not likely to be super violatile,
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: all right, um, Melier out down, but holding steady and
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: showing positives in some areas and not in others. It's
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: not as dismal as you want. No, it's not the
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: sixties of mule deer harvest. Um. I actually did a
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: talk on this one time a Wild Cheep. When I
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: first started, you know, I had a philosophy and I
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: was wrong, and you know, I thought I knew everything
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: back then. But um, there was a lot of people
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: that brought up brought up um like predator control when
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: they when they were seeing those big mule deer in
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: Colorado and these you know, deer getting killed. There was
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: a lot of people using coyote getters, and so yeah,
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: there was a big peak back in the sixties and seventies.
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: But they're not they're not continuing to draw, but we're
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: putting a lot of effort into them. They're just kind
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: of plugging along. And why is Colorado blowing the doors
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: off of everywhere else? Yeah, that's that's the thing I
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: wanted to ask. Man. I mean, there's a ton of
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: ground I want to cover, but I do want to
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: hit that real quick. Is uh you know, we spent
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: twenty years scouring uh this eight up and down in sideways, um,
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: trying to find like a like a like a big builder,
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: you know, and I thought there's something wrong with us.
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: Then I started making a handful of trips down to
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: Colorado and Idaho, and I'm like, oh, I get it. Yeah,
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: it's just you know, it's just different, man. There's some
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: places that have a lot of them. Is it like
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: in Colorado puts off ten to one compared to oh yeah,
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: some other Western state. I don't I don't know the
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: exact but it's it's ridiculous, you know what I mean.
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: I was I remember what my breakdown was but Colorado
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: had put in three hundred and something entries and the
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: next close this was like a hundred and one, and
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: then it drops them Montana that was like forty you know,
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: in the same time period. It's incredible, is there even?
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: I got all kinds of theories about why that is.
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: But what's your theory about why that is? We let
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: people shoot mule there all the way through the right?
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: I mean, I think you know, Colorado is an opportunity state.
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: It but they've they've seemed to set it up to
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: where they're bigger deer protected and a lot of those
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: real big deer come from sleeper units, and so I
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: think they've got they've got the groceries, they've got the
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: age structure. They protect him at the right time. I think.
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: I think there's no over the counter deer tag there.
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: Still we have to check, but I don't think so.
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: I think pretty much everything mule deer has gone to
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: draw down there. But either way, you're right, I mean,
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: they definitely protect those deers um, but you can they
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: still have lots of opportunities and go shooting. Does you
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: know for a lot of the seasons, Hey, before I
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: know where I don't want to leave the scoring system
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: before I can reason a couple of my questions because
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: and I feel like we need to make sure that
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: everybody understands it. But what I want to start off
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: with is, because you mentioned it has changed over the years, right,
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: is there a chance that the scoring system will change again?
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: Because and I can give you my example why it
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: brings up this question is that I remember when I
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: just got into, like, look at having to judge bull
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: elk as a guide in Arizona for clients, and so
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: I was getting like getting into that mindset, you know.
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: And at the time, there was that world record elk
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: that was forever number one. The was it the Plute
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: bowl out of Colorado, Black Canyon, right, And then it
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: got bested by belief like an inch or something like that,
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: by the White Mountain bull Black Canyon bull Vain And
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: it was a And when you look at the two
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: compared side by side, the Black Canyon Bowl, just wait
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: alone you can it must weigh twenty pounds more than
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: this the White Mountain bull. White Mountain bulls long and
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: spin ley, and but it had the length right, which
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: was awarded by your system. But I would say if
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: you saw the two animals on the hoof, probably and
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: saw the two sets of antlers, you'd say, well, for
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: sure that that the black cannonball is just gonna crush
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: the white mountain bull because he's just bigger and batter
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: and healthier just by judging the mass and his antlers. No,
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: And so it's a great question. And if we were
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: to create our scoring system today, I guarantee there'd be
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: some differences. But what we did was in nineteen fifty
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: we did the best we could and some of those
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: things now we kind of have to to hang onto
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: or all those data points that we have to this
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: point become invalid because you can't go look at it
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: right and so on ELK, when you mas your g one,
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: you start in the center, you transition to the outside
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: and go to the tip. That's the number one thing
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: that we see problems with. If we were to do
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: it today, I'd say that's not really, in my opinion,
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: not necessary. So when you're taking the little show, how
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: detailed this is, So when you're taking the length of
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: a time, you draw on a baseline on ELK because
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: what we're talking about here and generally speaking, on the
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: edge of the beam where the time. You know where
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: the beam would be had the time not happened, is
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: where you started. You follow the center of the time
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: along the outside curve on elk on the g one point,
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: the first point, just because of the way it sits
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: on that base, and I think what it was originally
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: they didn't have a lot of curvature to him, and
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: these bulls were at the time not as mature as
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: what we're seeing now. They started in the very center,
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: like if you're holding the elk rack sideways, like looking
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: at it from the side. You start in the center
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: of the time, it goes to the end, it transitions
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: to the bottom edge of the time, and then continues
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: around the outside curve, which at the time made sense.
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: Now I would say probably doesn't. But that's how every
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: g one has been measured, so we can't now say, oh,
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: never mind, we were wrong on that particular measurement. I
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: got a suggestion for you what you could do too.
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: If you needed a pivot, You wouldn't do a hard pivot, right.
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: You would continue to measure everything the way you've always
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: measured it, so that you can at least compare relative
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: to the past. But then you simultaneously do the new way,
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: and everything has been measured twice, and then in ten
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: years you'll have this decade long body of the perfect way.
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: But then you miss the nineties, which the eighties and
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: the nineties which is the taking off of in white tail.
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: You know, um, this is for the future generations. But
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: but you need to see where the data set. You
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: don't want to discount thirty years, fifty years, eighties to
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: continue to do it. You continue to do it, but
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: you also do it the new way. Everybody has a
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: measured everything twice. You tell our volunteers that hold on
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: those guys, right. The follow up question to that to
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: be would be like, would you ever add something like
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: the weight of an animal or just to get more
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: data points? We we did for a while ask for
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: the weight of the rack um for a while the
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: program the chairman was a professor at the University of
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: Montana and he was looking at rack weights and so
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: we actually had a data collection thing on the back
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: of the entry or the hunter guiding hunt form that
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: asked how much did the rack of your animal way
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: or horns? How do you get the skull and everything
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: on it? Well? And there was a there was a thing.
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: How was it cut whole skull? And so as we
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: tried to do it, we found out that that wasn't
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: really a great It's right, there was a lot of
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: variation there, so we quit asking for that particular. What
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: did this rack wag um? You hear about water displacement?
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: There gets a lot of that, to your point, is
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: really big and they think it should be water displacement.
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: So water displacement is again it's another great system that's
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: interesting to know, but it doesn't reward symmetry. It basically
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: rewards freak traits. And so if you're looking at the
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: overall health of the animal, you get something that gets
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: a big infection and a giant bulbous you know growth
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: off of it. Well, that's going to displace more water.
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: But that's not actually a positive trait when you're looking
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: at you know, how well did this rack? I mean
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: something that means you get hit by a car or
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: or bit by a bug and it got infected or
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: you know, got in a fight and it got broken
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: early on in velvet and created something goofy. So that's
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: what what would cause those abnormalities is generally a stressor
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: that would be negative only have one of our universities
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: looking at that, isn't one of our fellows looking at
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: that abnormalities caused by stressors? And yeah, and it's been
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: looked at a few times. Um, you know, basically the
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: science that they had in the nineteen fifties is still solid.
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: There is some some workout that shows like split eye
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: guards in certain areas. Perhaps that population got so genetically
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: bottleneck that all the white tails from some area have
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: a split eye guard. And so you could argue, well, okay,
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: that's that's what they all have. Well that was created
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: by a stressor, that the population is still bottlenecked, that
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: this negative trade is now dominant, that doesn't mean we've
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: changed the system to reward a negative trade is dominant
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: just because they got bottlenecked. I think that the one
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: of the uh primary, one of the primary hunter based
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: criticisms of the Boone and Crockett scoring system. We'll get
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: into the non hunter based criticism of Boone and crocket
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: sport scoring system, but the hunter based one has to
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: do with like deductions to the point where a lot
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: of people I hang out with they they please don't
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: say nets are for fish, but yeah, so you I'll
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: take a stack. Let let me take a staff of this.
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: You tell me where I get it wrong. You you know,
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: you shoot a deer and you take all these different measurements.
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: Not like you measure the length of the main beam.
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: You measure the length of all the different times. You
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: measure a bunch of circumferences. Um, you measure like the
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: width the inside spread, so the distance from one antler
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: to the other antler at the widest point. And you
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: add all these up, and we're supposed to You're supposed
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: to do it for each side, left antler, right antler.
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: And so let's say you get a um, you get
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: a left antler that's seventy, and you get a right
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: antler that's sixty. Someone would think, oh, so you shot
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: a one thirty white tail. But in fact they penalize
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: you or not or reward you. There's like some penalty
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: because of the fact that they're different, and that pisces
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: people off. Now you say, now you give them what
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: I'm telling people. What I'm trying to say, Well, it's
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: not a penalty. We're just we're measuring what's out there.
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: People look at people have put constructs on it that
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: it's some kind of penalty or reward. Um, sure, it's
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: just what the animal. You know, it's what it is.
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: It's just a set like I said earlier, it's just
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: a set of measurements that are added and subtracted. And
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: there's other school But the reason people feel like they
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: got robbed, I think is because they look at the
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: because it's about them. It's not about the antists. It's
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: about them. I'm not saying it's not about them, but
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: they're looking at the thing. They see the number because
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: it's even like a box. It's like net or gros
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: so gross is like all the score of the deer.
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: And then you do like your deductions. And I think
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: people get bummed when they have to look at the
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: one number. They feel like it's taxes they're paying, So
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: look at the one number, and then they got to
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: write the real number down, and I think they'd rather
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: just stick with the big number. When someone asks you,
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: like how much do you make? I think a lot
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: of like so says, well, how much do you make?
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: Depending on the audience, you tell your like pretax or
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: post tax number, because you know it just it tells
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: the narrative. So I think, yeah, it's like being tax
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: so like, why can't I have the big number? Why
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: I'm just gonna tell everybody the big number and I'm
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: not gonna tell him the small number. Tell him whatever
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: you want. So when I go to explain that, because
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: you're right, we get that question a ton of why
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: are you penalizing this? I love that word penalizing. It's
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: like a guy comes to your house, like takes the
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: points away, throw a flag. No, um, what you're doing?
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: What causes those differences? Like what causes a big deduction?
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: I think it would help if I think if you
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: can answer this question for me because I had written
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: it down. I'm glad you brought it. The bilateral symmetry again,
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: can you? Is it today accepted amongst wildlife biologists that
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: bilateral symmetry is a display of the health of an
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: animal generally speaking, yes, yes, they're like I said, That's
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: why I tried to get out where they've shown some
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: some traits that aren't necessarily perfectly bilateral have been shown.
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: But for the most part, you know, and I mean
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: look at nature and the whole. A tree that's healthy
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: isn't gonna be lopsided to one side. Um, you know,
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: anything you want to look at there is bilateral symmetry,
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: and so what causes the variation to that as a
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: stress or, which is the basis of it. But where
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: I was going is, you know what causes a big deduction? Okay,
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: well three of the elks times are broken? Well, he
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: was just fighting. I shot him late in the season.
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: That's not a penalty. Well, what results in excessive fighting
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: that breaks times and overpopulation of bulls. So that actually
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: leads us to believe that perhaps the bull population in
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: that unit could be too high because these stressors are
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: being exhibited on this rack, which results in a deduction.
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: So if you're talking to your buddies and you're making
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: it about you know, well, my dear, was this or gross? This?
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: Gross is fine? But when we're looking at the actual
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: health of the species and the habitat, that's what the
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: nets for. So my go to is, you know, the
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: grosses for the hunter, the nets for the animal. Yeah,
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: I think that we're larger. Where it comes from is
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: I think that people, um people have taken a tool
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: created for a purpose and created like a tool created
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: by an organization to pursue like the sort of long
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: term goal and they don't know about that. They don't
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: know about the tool, and I think it's just a
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: way to write how to communicate to your friend over
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: the phone what it was. And so they don't they
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: see imperfections in the tool without knowing or even like
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: like why is it that way? And I mean the
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: club itself is so much bigger than records and what
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: Justin and I run. I mean, we do so much
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: more then. I mean, we're known for our record book,
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: but we do so much more for conservation and and
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: I know Tony can touch on that a lot more,
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: but I mean what we do with our university programs
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: and you know what we do with UM our associates
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: program and our conservation and ethics program. I mean, it's
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: so much more than than what Justin and I do
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: well roll that out. I mean, we we've gotten welcome
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: back to the scoring thing to mix. There's some more
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: points about it, but yeah, like give a bigger context
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: for what, you know, besides coming up ways for people
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: to argue about how big the deer was, what goes
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: down over there? Well, so you know really that like
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: the records program is about tim percent of our budget
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: UM when we were founded the intent was to make
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: some course corrections in UM in wildlife health and inhabitat health,
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: and the only way to do that was through policy.
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: So you know, back then and today, you know, a
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: huge chunk of our mission is spent developing conservation policy
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: in Washington, d C. And helping the state's develop UH
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: policies at the state level. UM. You know, we're very
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: much involved with forced health. We're involved with UM wildlife disease.
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: You know, we're we're a group that people go to
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: to say, Okay, you guys have the knowledge to come
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: up with a solution to the problem that we've identified.
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: And that's what we do UM, and that is what
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: the probably two thirds of our entire mission budget goes towards,
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: is that that effort to make sure that we have land,
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: that we have public access, that we have when is
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: get out there, they have UH animals to look at
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: that the landscape that supports those same animals supports all
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: kinds of other wildlife like birds and fish. UM. You know,
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: the health of the not on the health of wildlife,
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: but also the health of the habitat. So UM policy
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: is a big part of what we do. How do
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: you guys get money anyway we can. But um, we
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: you know, our members, you know, we still when Roosevelt founders,
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: we have a hundred you know, he founded us with
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: a hundred regular members. And again those are guys and
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: gals that are influential in their respective fields. But they're
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: all joined by the common threat of being hunters and
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: um and so when they they are a big part
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: of us. You know that they you know, member contributions,
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: member dues are a big part of our budget. Our
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: corporate partnerships are a big part of our budget. Are
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: we have a fairly healthy endowment, and that those interest
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: earnings are a big part of our budgets. People that
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: die and then do like a not like bequeath to
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: a non prom partially, yeah, partially, and then a lot
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: of them have just been major gifts from again those
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: hundred Readlar members. Because with you know that that those
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: the by laws have never changed. There's just the same
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: number of Redlar members today as there was, you know,
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: a hundred thirty years ago. You know, so you keep
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: it at keep it at one hundred. And so we
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: have about a hundred and sixty of what we call
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: professional members, and those guys and gals are like worker bees.
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: Justin and I are professional members. I've been a professional
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: member before I ever came to the club. You're not
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: a regular member. I'm not a readier member. I don't
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: have quite that big a check. But but anyway, I've
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: got the fire in the valley. Just not then. But
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: um I uh, but you know those in the like
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: state agency heads, federal agency heads, a lot of academics,
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: a lot of univeriversity professors in forestry and wildlife departments
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: in land grant universities across the country are all in
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: that mix of professionals where we were which is really
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: our knowledge base. You know, when we have a problem
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: like cw D is a good example. You know, we're
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: front and stater with c w D research trying to
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: figure out a way to stop the spread number one.
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: Number two, how are we going to fix the problem? Um?
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: And you know, we spend a lot of time and energy,
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: uh resources, using our professors and our academics that are
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: special that that are known all over the country for
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: being experts in c w D trying to come up
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: with answers to that problem. UM. So you know, in
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: the answer to funding, you know, we do have grants
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: you know, we have grants, we we we we have
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: we we do a lot of matching funding for issues
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: like cw D and things like that. But it's UM,
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: we're not a huge organization by comparison to a lot
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: of others. Do you guys get checked just some people
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: to write into check don Yeah, I mean we I
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: mean you know that. It's interesting because all of a sudden,
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: like on social media, somebody will say, wow, you know,
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: you guys are doing a pretty good job there. I
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: want to help support you. Yeah, they'll send us some money.
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: But I think the main thing is is that unlike
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: other groups, we're not relying on events. We don't have chapters,
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: we don't have banquets, we don't have. What we are
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: relying on is our members and UH and our member
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: support and UM. For a long time, there was the
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: Budha Crivate Club. You know, we ran silent and deep,
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: and you know, nobody really knew what we did. We
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: didn't really care that nobody knew what we did. We
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: just cared about what the end result was when we
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: got the job done. And now you know, we're kind
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: of coming out of a cocoon. In the last ten
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: years and talking a little bit more about what we do,
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: because we want people to be aware of that these
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: these issues are not so different than what they were
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: a hundred and thirty years ago. There's just different solutions
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: to the same types of issues. You know, the threats
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: to our public lands, the you know, the threats to
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: the health of our wildlife. UM. But at the end
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: of the day, if if, if, if it comes, it
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: boils down to the hunter and the angler. If you
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: don't have those guys out there fishing and hunting, and
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: you don't have those licenses getting sold and you don't
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: have you know, our state and federal agencies dry up,
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: and that funny mechanism is solely dependent on hunters and
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: anglers who need fresh water to fish. They've got to
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: have public lands and or land access to hunted, and
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: they've got to have healthy, healthy wildlife populations to hunt.
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: And so we've always tried to be in a position
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: we're kind of looking down the road and anticipating what
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: what is the next big problem, what is the next
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: big threat? And UM, you know, we have huge wildfires now, UM,
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: you know across the Western States, and you know, the
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: forest health and rangement health UM is not what it
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: needs to be. Um, you know, we've got to take
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: much more aggressive approach to active forest management and restoration
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: and and make sure that you know, we our forests
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: aren't tinder boxes. And so you know, those are the
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: kind of issues that we look at. And I know
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: it's really boring for the average hunter to sit there
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: and all this stuff. That's why you know, the records program,
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: you know, the concept of fair chase. Those are two
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: cornerstones of our organization that I really are public face
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: that are somewhat sexier than what it is that we
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: actually do behind the scenes to ensure that those two
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: things can happen. Yeah, that the fair chas thing is
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: interesting because I see there, you know, you're a hunter
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: like your brun and Crocker closed a hunter based organization.
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: But there's a little bit of a conflict. I can
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: imagine where on one hand, if it's just records keeping,
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: it would be that um, like it was just specifically
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: trying to understand in some geographical area, how many animals
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: of a certain size the landscape kicked off put off.
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: It would include like animals that were killed by poachers,
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: animals that were struck by vehicles, animals just turned up
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: dead and someone swimming pool right and be just bring
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: come one, come all. But you don't do that because
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: there's a cash attached to getting an animal in the
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: record book, and so you don't just let anyone through.
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: And you have rules and regulations about who can get
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: in that are more stringent even than state law. Yeah, like,
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: how do you reconcile tholes that because we actually do
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: accept found heads. Oh you do. So the picked up
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: is what it goes in as or if it was
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: an example party taken. We don't feel that's a fair
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: chase thing. But a lot of states all well, three
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: states at party hunting, we don't list the hunter what
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: those rules. Also, you do have a way I got you,
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: so you do log the presence of the animal. You
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: just don't reward yep. For example, we have a state
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: owned heads. So when they say that Buona Crocker won't
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: accept it, we won't let you won't accept it. Isn't
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: reward well, well, because it still recognizing the animal. In
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: some cases we wouldn't accept it if it was from
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: a high fence population that's not indicative of the area's
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: native wildlife. I never I never understood that didn't know
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: that that was true. So you do take it into account, right,
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: We've got we've got it. One of the first deerray
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: process got hung up on a cemetery fence, like they
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: found it hanging their dead in the morning. So yeah,
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: and that's a picked up head um wildlife agencies if
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: you guys want to know about it. If the state
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: confiscates ahead, we never list whoever you know the poacher was,
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: but it's shown as owned by Montana Fish, Wildlife and
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: Parks and where it came from and where it came from. Oh,
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: I see, I didn't realize that, but it is. It
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: is you you bring up because that's not how people like.
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: So much of what I know about Buda Crock Club
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: was just from like shoot the ship with earlier. I
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: don't like what I hear that. That's that's the thing
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: I always heard, is like that, well they don't accept acts,
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: they don't accept this and that. Um, so yeah, I
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: got you. Now we have it. We have a set
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: of rules that are fair chase requirements that you have
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: to stay within to be recognized. And this goes back
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: to the beginning of it, like for you to your
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: name as a fair chase hunter. This deer taken in
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: fair chase by this person. That goes back to the
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: very beginning. There was no rules and so they had
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: to try to switch everybody's opinion on, you know, what
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: was appropriate. So they said to get into our records book,
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: and this is pre nineteen fifty, you know whatever, you
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: must take this in fair chase. And at the time
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: you couldn't jack light, you couldn't crust them in the snow.
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: It was a lot shorter even then you might have
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: legally been. So they in the very beginning they put
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: that on. What happened is the hunter perception started to change.
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: The fair chase took off. Um, you know, state agencies,
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: loophold started the you know, the Wildlife School in Wisconsin,
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: and all of a sudden you had scientifically trained managers
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: that are setting this. But at the time, fair chase
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: was one of necessity to force harvest on the old
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: mature at males, basically forcing trophy hunting in the beginning,
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: which was the sure male harvest that did not affect
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: the population. And that was the whole beginning of fair
• 56:04
  Speaker 1: chase where we continue it today. Again, the reason for
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: fair chase is kind of morphed. We no longer have
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: to follow fair chase to save wildlife populations, but fair
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: chase is integral to what Tony pointed out on hunting
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: and fishing to continue and the funding for wildlife to continue.
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: What is um what's an example of a practice like
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: what would be something that Buona Crockett Club would regard
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: as not fair chase that could be legal somewhere, and
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: what's vice versa like like the opposite example. So the
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: biggest ones that we see is some states allow the
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: usage of radios to talk somebody intoing a game animal Arizona, Oregon,
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: for example. You can, or you could. The last time
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: I looked talk somebody into an animal. We say, if
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: you guide hunters to game with an electronic you know,
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: with use of electronic communications, it's out. Um. You know.
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: Another one that that's probably with the biggest misconception that
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: we have is cellular trail cameras. It's not fair chase
• 57:06
  Speaker 1: to get live images of a game species while you're
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: hunting it. We're working on that final wording on that,
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: but for cellular trail cameras, if I'm sitting I could
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: be sitting here in this podcast and all of a sudden,
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: the bear walks by one of my trail cameras. If
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: it was legal in Montana, I could then go legally
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: hunt that bear in many states, and that is not
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: fair chase. UM. The other side of it, and this
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: is a very contentious topic, is baiting UM Baiting is
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: a general practice, especially for bears, is not a violation
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: of fair chase. Ah. So that's an example something you
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: might not be allowed to do in a state. But
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: you would accept that if you were correct, and that
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: then you can never do something illegal. So you know,
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: if if if it's illegal, debate in your state, you
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: can't do it, it's okay. So you always you always
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: bow to the state. Right If the state is more restrictive,
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: that's fine. But with with the bay eating for bears,
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: you know, for black bears in certain areas, that's the
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: only way that you can get a real good look
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: at a bear and make sure you're not shooting a
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: cub or the wrong bear. Well, then we look at
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: baiting of servants, which is a very hot topic with
• 58:12
  Speaker 1: c w D. You could make a very strong argument
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: right now in that case for servants, baiting may not
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: be fair chase but as an overall practice for baiting,
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: as it's done for bears, we say it is still
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: a fair chase practice. Who is it? Like, you know,
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: Teddy Roosevelt wasn't arguing about what to do about trail cams,
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: like who who is it? Who is it? Who decides
• 58:35
  Speaker 1: it's there for? For the overall club, there's the entire
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: you know, it would go to the there's an ethics
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: committee um for records. The records injury requirements for fair
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: chase would be the records committee. It's a thirty two
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: member committee. And they got to wrestle with emerging technologies,
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: and we do constantly, uh have you have you addressed
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: drones specifically or is that captured onto something else? So
• 58:58
  Speaker 1: it was captured under something else again, it was it
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: was transmitting images of live games to the hunter, because
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: you can't run a drone without seeing the animal. We
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: actually called out drones by name, and the interraffed David
• 59:13
  Speaker 1: about I was going to say about eight years ago,
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: eight or nine years ago when when it really got
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: when he used to drones really kind of picked up pace.
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: You know, people are using them for a lot of
• 59:23
  Speaker 1: different things, and there they got to be pretty popular,
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: and so we did call him out by name. And
• 59:28
  Speaker 1: it might even been longer, might have been closer to
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: ten years ago. It's been a while, yeah, but it was.
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: We were getting asked by state agencies, what's your thoughts
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: on drones and our answer would be, well, it's transmitting
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: an image. But we got asked enough that to help
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: the states were like, we will call it out by name.
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: So there's no doubt that a drone usage to find
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: the scout for or hunt game falls outside of fair chase.
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: What you know, we would deem as the ethical pursuit
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: of the animal that they can escape. Um. I gave
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: you the big complaint that you get from hunters that
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: there almost like similar. We're not not you know, it's
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: not even fair as a complaint because it's just like
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: a misunderstanding, but that that people will argue about their deductions, right,
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: and people complain about that they felt the score should
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: be higher, and like, well, you know those assholes seventy
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: but I got um doug uh so Uh. The other
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 1: thing is is I think that the numbers This isn't
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: even a criticism that comes from outside. It's like inside
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: and outside hunting. But people look at the fixation on numbers, right,
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: and then and that people feel that that, uh, it's
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: like that that's kind of this objectification of animals might
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 1: not be a totally right word, but basically they're taking
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: this sort of like living, this beautiful living thing that
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: has a lot of um. There's you know, a huge
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: amount of cultural pride that we take that that that
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: we have these animals around us, and we generally Americans
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 1: like generally recognize them as gorgeous, were generally supportive of
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: their existence here. There's a lot of like reverence for them.
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 1: And people feel that when you boil it down and
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: just take the deer and turn it into a number,
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: that it's something that something gets lost. And so you'll
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 1: hear hunters say this, and a lot of times like
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: newer hunters, um, we'll be prickly about it because they're
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: excited to get a deer and I think, like a
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 1: deer if I just get be so happy. And they
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 1: learned that there's kind of like this, Oh, it was
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: just a blank and should never be that? Why and
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: even we recognize it should never be that And you
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: mentioned to it earlier, it's simply a tool that we've
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 1: created and it's kind of been I don't know, bastardized.
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 1: I don't think, I don't, but I don't think it's
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 1: your I don't know that it's your not I don't
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: think it's your fault at all. But it's a thing.
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: And then but people know it's the Boon and Crockett score. Yeah,
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: so you get right, Yeah, yeah, you probably hear about
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: it all the time. Yeah, and yeah, i'd argue that
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 1: if you know, if you if you adduce it to
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 1: any single component, it's inappropriate. Well, it's about you again,
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 1: it's just about the animal. You should never just kill
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 1: an animal just because of a number. That's ridiculous. You
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: never adduce it to that. Honestly, if you don't care
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 1: about regulations anything, you're just shooting something for only meat,
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 1: and you don't care about the experience and the laws.
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: That's wrong. It's the whole experience. You enjoy the meat,
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 1: You enjoy them ount, you enjoy the number, how it
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 1: how it affects the biologic data. Make sure that that's
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 1: still there. It's just another piece of it. You should
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 1: never make a hunt about one thing. It's about the
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 1: whole experience and the animal and everything that animal is UM.
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 1: I know you guys have some thoughts about how the
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 1: the evolution of the term trophy hunting, that that it's
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: you know, each generation kind of defines it for whatever
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 1: to to, you know, defines for their moment. How has
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 1: that drifted? So I can answer a little bit of
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 1: that because I have been in the space and as
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: I mentioned before, I started in the space as a
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: film producer, UM, and that was the eighties and at
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: that time there's only four of us that we're doing
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: that type of thing. And UM, you know, if you
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: turn the clock back of ways to the days of
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: Kirk Gouty, an American sportsman, you know, those were days
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 1: when um, you know, it was all about hunting. And
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: then in the in the eighties and the nineties what
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 1: started happening was as my um, the business I was in,
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 1: there was more and more video producers that started getting
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: into the game. You know. My feelings were always you know,
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: they told the story, they stole a story about you know,
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: where the animal lived, what the animal eight. You know,
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 1: we didn't always get an animal, um, but if we did,
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 1: it was always underfair chase. But later in the in
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: the late eighties and the early nineties, as more and
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 1: more of these folks started getting into the business, it's
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 1: all became about to kill. How many kills do you
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 1: have in your tape? I'd have idn't actually have distributors
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: asked me that questions. And that was prior, prior to um,
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: you know, the outdoor network to determine if it was
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 1: good or not exactly, because that's what they were selling
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 1: it on. So all of a sudden and and and
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 1: the term trophy then became starting to get really polluted
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 1: because they did your what you're talking about with the
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 1: numbers thing. You know, the bigger the better, You're not
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 1: worth squad if you don't kill a big, big animal
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 1: with big horns or handlers and so um. So it
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: went from the hunting days of Kirk Guity to the
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: killing days of the eighties and nineties, and it really
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: got the term trophy a black eye. Um. And I
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 1: think the media drove that. I mean, if you look
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 1: at our outdoor programming now, for the most part, on
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: our outdoor networks, there's still a lot of whack them
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: and stack and stuff going on in those networks. And
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 1: I think that's not a tribute to the animal. I
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 1: don't think it's a tribute to our sport of hunting.
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 1: I don't think you should really call it hunting, say, media,
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 1: you're talking about our own media. I'm talking about our
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 1: outdoor media, you know. And I think that what I
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: see now, uh though, is I see hope in the
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 1: fact that I think, you know, programs like yours for example,
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 1: you know, you're talking about these things, and you're talking
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 1: about and you're going to see a migration back now
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 1: from the kill to the hunt and what it really means.
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 1: And you know, the local war movement, you know, consuming
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: those animals. Um. Where does your me come from? Um?
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 1: And you know, so I think that there's there's there.
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 1: You know, we're starting a course correction there in a
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 1: positive way. UM. But I think that's really happened to trophy.
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 1: It was. It was hyped so much in outdoor in
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 1: the outdoor media there for twenty years that it just
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 1: kind of took a left turn and now we gotta
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: get it on the right turn again. It's amazing how um,
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 1: how universal not in honey media, but how universal in
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 1: the mainstream media, how universal um of a condemnation trophy
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 1: hunting is. It's like if you use that you don't
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 1: even need to say anything else. No, you don't. It's
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 1: like if you see an article trophy hunter, like you
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 1: don't need to read the rest of the headline even
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: you know that it is bad. We talked about this recently,
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 1: whereas there's a fundraiser that uh Don Jr. Was going
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 1: on for blacktail Deer in Ducks. Okay, so when I
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 1: hear blacktail deer in Ducks, I don't jump into my
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 1: head like it doesn't sound to me like an evil
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 1: trophy hunting adventure. But when describing to new As it
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 1: was leading a trophy hunt, and you have to say, well,
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 1: i'd have to know a lot more. I don't really
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 1: know that that what they're doing. It just seems like
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 1: they're going hunting deer and ducks, Like how do we
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 1: know that? But someone's like, I know how to make
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 1: this seem real bad. I will just use the word
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 1: trophy and then everyone will know that. I mean, it's
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: real bad. I don't know that you're gonna save that work.
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 1: The term trophy was never intended to be bad um,
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 1: but unfortunately it has become that way. And I don't
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 1: think it's salvageable. It's it's just a term that has
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: been beat up so bad and misrepresented um by you know,
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 1: the media, whether it's the outdoor media or the general
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 1: mainstream media with the stories you're like you're talking about, um,
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 1: you know, we need to find some other description for these,
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 1: for the for the for the mature mail specims that
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 1: we're taking out of these ecosystems. Yeah, I do. I
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 1: was just gonna say that. I feel like some reading
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 1: Jack O'Connor stuff, I always had the idea that like
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 1: trophy and then the head or the mount were interchangeable,
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 1: they were synonymous, and that's how that that how where
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 1: where how they used trophy? Did you would you guys
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 1: agree you just want the head? No, no, not that
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 1: you just wanted to head. But that's just like what
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 1: that piece of the animal was referred to as. Yeah,
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 1: that is yeah. You know. I ran into a guy
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: one time I was l COHNT ran into a guy
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 1: on the trail. He's actually a radio I don't want
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 1: to say his name. He's a radio host. And I
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 1: was talking to him like that's where I was like,
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 1: holy shit, you're but anyways, he was talking about a
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 1: gun and he said he's taken thirty head, which sounds
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 1: like livestock I think of, but yeah, like thirty trophies. Sure,
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 1: And again it wasn't a negative connotation back then. It
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 1: was just like that was like like they had an
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 1: animal down and there were many different parts of it,
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 1: and then like the head was you could say it's
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 1: called it was just also referred to as the trophy.
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: Like I'll grab the back quarter, you grab the trophy. Yeah. Yeah,
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 1: they had all their trophies with them. Yeah. It came
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 1: along with I've I haven't abandoned. I have not abandoned
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 1: the word. And I try to help it out a
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 1: little bit when I can, because, um, it's funny because
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 1: uh and talking to people, like talking to people who
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 1: are sort of kicking the tires on hunting or you know,
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 1: curious about hunting, They'll they'll really want to push you
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: right away. They'll be like, well, you're not like trophy hunter.
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 1: I'll be like, well easy now, because I am. You know,
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 1: I'm a lot of things. And one of the things
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 1: I am is I have a lot of this ship
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 1: laying around my house and I really like it a lot.
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: And so I don't know what you call it, what
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 1: you want to call it. But like if I get
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 1: a big deer, any deer, If I get a deer,
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 1: I want the head. I'm never gonna get rid of it.
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 1: I've never gotten rid of one, unless I like lent
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 1: one to a friend because he thought it's cool to
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 1: have in his house. I've never gotten rid of one
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 1: of my life. So I don't you know this idea,
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 1: and some people like overdo or they tried to like,
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 1: I don't even remove the head from the woods. I'm like, dude,
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 1: now you're just like you're trying to make a comment
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 1: on things, and it's just ridiculous, Like you would want
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 1: it and you would have it in your house, but
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 1: because other people view there's in the way that you
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 1: don't find acceptable, you will now sacrifice by leaving yours
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 1: in the woods in order to have like make turn
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 1: this into like social commentary. One it should be remembrance
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 1: of your hunt. I mean, I look at my hanging
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 1: in my you know, in my house, and I remember
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 1: every single one of those. Yeah, it's a trophy. I'm
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 1: all four onto something different. I don't know what the
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 1: hell you're gonna call it mementos. I don't know mentos.
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 1: My kids would think mentos in a shadow box. Yeah,
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 1: I love it, so I haven't like walked away from it.
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 1: But I know that it takes a lot of explaining either.
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 1: If you explain it like that, people like, oh, yeah,
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 1: I get that right, Like I don't know. It's like
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 1: I like all of it. I eat all the meat whatever,
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 1: I give the damn bones and my dog. I put
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 1: the antlers on my shelf, like I take the whole thing.
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 1: I like it all. And I found a nice like, um, well,
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 1: benefit from doing some so called trophy hunting. I caught
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 1: a little bit of slack four on that video we
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 1: posted that meta your Hunts where I was hunting elk
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 1: in Colorado at a tag that way to you know,
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 1: fourteen fifteen years to hunt. But I could have very
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 1: easily filled that tag opening morning and just shot a bowl.
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 1: But the older I get, man, I want to hunt.
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 1: I remember like older clients in mine when I was
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 1: a hunting guy, they should tell me that, Like, man,
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 1: my perfect season will be if I can kill one
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 1: on the last evening of the last day of Pennsylvania's
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 1: deer season. You don't want to sit in my tree
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 1: stand like sixty days. And I kind of as a
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 1: mid twenty year old, like I didn't really get it,
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 1: But now at forty two, I'm like, oh yeah, I
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 1: get it. I want to hunt every single moment that
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 1: I have opened to hunt and then hopefully kill on
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 1: the last day. And if you're looking for something, you know,
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 1: a trophies festivalor however you want to put it, a
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 1: bigger buck, it's it helps you do that, right, unless
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 1: you can get lucky, But most of the time you're
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 1: gonna end up hunting more. Yeah, there are a lot
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 1: of trips that will be over instantaneously. And that's another
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 1: funny thing, is like, so if you're super moral, uh,
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 1: you shoot the first thing right away, like that's more
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 1: moral than that. You wander around the hills for five
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 1: days and then get one like you're you're less moral.
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 1: It's just it's this heart. So when you see the
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 1: word destroyed, he just man, just one of those things
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 1: just makes you cringe. Well, you know I am. I
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 1: grew up, you know, in a subsistence family, so I
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 1: never had a beefsteak till I was sixteen years old.
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 1: But I will tell you it is my perfect hunting
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 1: season is when I draw a beat egg for a
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 1: for a cow because I can run out, I can
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 1: get the cow, and I can put the cow in
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 1: the freezer and I have no I've got meat for
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 1: the rest of the year, and then I can actually
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 1: focus on Okay, I'm i a tag start picking that place,
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 1: and I'm gonna start seeing if maybe I can be
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 1: lucky enough to wander into something that is a respectable
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 1: you know, but your male specimen. I have not gotten
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 1: that lucky yet to get into the book, I will
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 1: tell you that. But you know, you have to put
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 1: yourself in there and just right, and you know there's
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 1: no back door, but I but you know, I mean that,
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 1: because then you do maybe you hunt the rest of
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 1: the season and maybe you gets something, but maybe you don't.
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 1: But it is all about being out in the woods
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 1: and and and and the experience as much as anything else.
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 1: For I think the majority of hunters um, you know.
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 1: And I bet I think that the unfortunately the plagiarized
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 1: you know, the trophy piece has been plagiarized, and they're
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 1: not plagiarize is probably not the wrong word, but it's
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 1: been misinterpreted and and and it's not um, it's not
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 1: what it was originally intended to be. It happens to
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 1: a lot of words though really you know, like now, um,
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 1: there's a certain way you can throw an inflection on environmentalists,
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 1: right and you're like, oh, you know an environmentalist like, oh,
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 1: so someone who wants like major sort of overreach. They
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 1: ruin all the good times. You know. It's like there's
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 1: like words that just like you know, trophy hunting. But
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 1: you can probably stay here list a dozen words that
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 1: at one point in time had like a positive connotation,
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 1: but then a version of it runs wild and it
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 1: just starts to carry with it to the point where
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 1: you have no one can self identify anymore as a
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 1: trophy hunter. You gotta do a lot of backflips to
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 1: in order to land there. You know, there's nothing I
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 1: want to ask you guys about that We've we've talked
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 1: about it at least a dozen times, so Buona Crockett Club.
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 1: When you're looking at the animals that get submitted, um,
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 1: you break the like you don't just break it up
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 1: by species, but you break it up by uh geography
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 1: in some cases, because there's sort of like not hard
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 1: lines between things. Meaning the example we always bring up
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 1: is it a deer in California. Say a deer can
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 1: run across I five and become a different deer like,
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 1: meaning he could be a record book deer on the
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 1: west side, he could be a record book blacktail on
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 1: the west side of I five. Should he run over
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 1: to the east side of I five, he ceases to
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 1: be a record book animal. We can actually look into
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 1: that now, so we can have a DNA test done
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 1: that will tell us what, you know, if that deer
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 1: is a blacktail or mulean deer. Has that come up yet?
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, we have. We probably have what about
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 1: two dozen deer right now that are getting DNA because
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 1: of that. And so what what you're touching on there
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 1: is if you look at the blacktail range from Washington,
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 1: Columbia blacktail Washington, Oregon, California, the southern end of the California,
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 1: we get down to the California, it wasn't a definitive line,
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 1: whereas that the peak of the Cascades served as a
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 1: definitive line between mule deer and blacktail, so that historically
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 1: was not crossable, which created this speciation where there was
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 1: as particular Columbia as there well south of that line,
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 1: there's no definitive. They can't get over the cascades type thing.
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 1: So it's a mixing, that's what's going on there. It's
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 1: just that the severe, the severe high altitude spine of
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 1: that range isn't separating blacktails and mule, where historically with
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 1: different climate conditions it would have. Okay, and so they
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 1: can So you get down south of that range and
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 1: they can slip back and forth. And what what we've
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 1: shown if you look in Oregon are our blacktail boundary
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 1: is the forest service line. So we pulled it off
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 1: the top of the range. We made it conservative so
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 1: there wouldn't be a potential crossover. So now that they
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 1: identified the loci that are unique to blacktail and mule there,
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 1: we can take a deer kill just over the border
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 1: to the east and say, sure enough, it has all
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 1: the traits of a blacktail. Let's run the genetic genetics
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 1: on it and see and if it comes back pure blacktail,
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 1: we will accept it in the category. Who pays for that?
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 1: The hunter does. If if we have a question on something,
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 1: if we're not like if it's a top end or whatever,
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 1: and we're doing it to preserve the records, will pay
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 1: for it. But if somebody says, I shot this deer.
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 1: It doesn't make your book, but I know it's a
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 1: blacktail taken east of your boundary. I can now say, okay,
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 1: well a hundred and thirty bucks, and once I get
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 1: ten samples and I can run it for that cost,
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 1: send me your DNA sample, and then we can come
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 1: back and say, divinitively, here's your cue value, a que
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 1: value of point nine or highers pure blacktail. Really, and
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 1: you've got two dozen right now that people want to
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 1: challenge that. Man, See, our stuff is all out of date.
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 1: Can we talk about that that? This is my favorite
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 1: thing to talk about. The five dear thing man. The
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 1: I five boundary is actually Roosevelt's elk, and there's no
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 1: genetic variation between a Roosevelt and the Rocky. It's completely
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 1: habitat driven. So then it was just an arbitrary line
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 1: that has to be easily defiable, which is I five.
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 1: The other one that's really kind of embarrassing is the
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 1: Canadian moose stop at the Canadian border and become what
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 1: sheriffs in the Rockies. Yeah, I got you, but what
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 1: about like in Maine and now those are all Canadians. Okay,
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 1: So if you really so, there is a there is
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 1: a hard line there Canadian moose and shiras they can
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 1: change back. They probably like the border too, because I
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 1: think it's cut so it's got a good young growth
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 1: on it. Well, then you have the bears in Alaska.
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 1: I've had them, like a brown bear, grizzly bear. I've
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 1: had that come down to yards. No, yeah, yeah, yeah,
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 1: we'll get a GPS location. I've literally had to come
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 1: down to yards. I'm on Google Earth and I've got
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 1: everything up and I've got the coordinates punched in our
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 1: line runs. Because what is referring to here is that
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 1: you have barren ground. So grizzly bear. Yeah, in Alaska,
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 1: like you know in the Rockies ere everybody says grizzly
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 1: bearon and but a grizzly bear or brown bear are
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 1: If you went to a taxono, Mr geneticist, they would
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 1: tell you that grizzly bears and brown bears is the
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 1: same thing. Brown bears have some coloration differences, tend to
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 1: get much bigger. Um. Grizzly bears tend to have like
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 1: lighter colors, more pellage, uh, you know, greater differences in
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 1: hair color all kinds of things, Um, not nearly as
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 1: big and in some ways, like a lot of guys
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 1: in Alaska will tell you, if it has access to salmon,
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 1: we called a brown bear, If it doesn't have access
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 1: to salmon, we called a grizzly. But how do you guys,
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 1: so a lot did you draw line? We did? Yeah,
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 1: So it's it's kind of the Alaska Range curling up
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 1: around the spine of the Alaska Rare until it hits
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 1: one of the longitude lines. So the north the north
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 1: edge of the Alaska Ranges of Grizzly, the south face
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 1: of the Alaska Ranges of brown Bear. Correct, And I've
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 1: had that come down to yards on that range line.
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 1: So what what it is is you follow the Alaska
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 1: Range around there's one spot that it's a straight line
• 1:19:59
  Speaker 1: like Mount Elias I believe, is it, And then it
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 1: goes a straight line across, then hits the Alaska Range
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 1: and follows the peak of the Alaska Range, and then
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 1: once you reach a certain point, then it follows the
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 1: longitude out to the coast. I'm guessing again this was
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 1: the fifties, so I was not around. Um, they probably
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 1: were going with the salmon thing because that's what I've heard.
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 1: If it's got access to you know, a big salmon run,
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 1: it's a brown bear. If it doesn't, it's a grizzly.
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 1: So it would make sense that salmon couldn't cross that
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 1: Alaska range and you got the Yukon to the north.
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 1: But I think that's probably what they were trying to do,
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 1: is that differentiation. They were set down and said, where
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 1: is that line that's the most easily definable that hunters
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 1: will understand and makes sense for separating these out so
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 1: that you can But you know, bears is the worst
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 1: because all the biggest grizzly bears are killed right on
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 1: the line that we're probably a brown bear last week.
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 1: So the the yeah, so the let me guess that
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 1: the one you're looking at is a guy that feels
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 1: he killed a tanker grizzly and you're like, well, may
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 1: it's just a small brown bear where exactly yeah, yeah,
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 1: or yeah. So all the biggest grizzlies come from the line,
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 1: not all of them, but it's it's a larger portion
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 1: of them. You kind of know where a big grizzlies
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 1: going to be from when you get an entry, is
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 1: that right? Huh? What other ones are like that, So
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 1: the moose, the grizzlies, the moose don't seem to follow
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 1: the Colorado is blowing the doors off a shiris moose
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 1: you think would be northern Montana, it's not. Washington does well,
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 1: but so that one. You know, you think that just
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 1: over the Canadian border would be the place to hunt shiris,
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 1: but the answer is Colorado. Um. You know blacktail the
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 1: California area, there's actually a little bit genetic differentiation. So
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 1: even though that they do potentially have some mulder, it's
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 1: actually different black tails with the biggest black tails or
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 1: northern California in southern Oregon. The further north you get,
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 1: they almost look more like a sit Ka than they
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 1: really do. Uh, you know what you consider a Columbia
• 1:22:01
  Speaker 1: and so you know those are Columbia black tails. Yeah,
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 1: there's big ones that show up in Washington and Oregon.
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 1: We haven't seen a lot of real big deer in
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 1: Oregon since the fires of like the sixties when there
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 1: was some major stand clearing fires. The years following that
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 1: we saw some gigantic black tails. We haven't seen that,
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 1: but that you know, Jackson County Applegate type country down
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 1: there that still puts out some big ones in northern California.
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 1: If someone wanted to, uh, what's the quickest way to
• 1:22:29
  Speaker 1: get in the books? What should you be hunting for?
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 1: If you want to get in the books? White tails
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 1: is tough, man real dere is tough off of like
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 1: rough population estimates and whatnot. I kind of calculated out,
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 1: you know, how many do you have to look at
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 1: to find a booner and white tails? Like a hundred
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 1: and eighty thousand white tails you have to look at
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 1: to find one that's and again this is all, but
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 1: usually one in a thousand is kind of what you
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 1: what you think? Um Shires move mouse and most of
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 1: their ranges forty inches wide and split brows will get
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 1: you to the minimum. And I feel like if you
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 1: can get a shire's tag, you could set your sights
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 1: at BNC and have a decent chance at it. So
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 1: you gotta look at how many to find one. I
• 1:23:14
  Speaker 1: don't remember what that one is off the top of
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 1: my head, say split browns just to brow times. The
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 1: way our scoring works is you terminate the measurement on
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 1: the on a moose palm between two qualifying points on
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 1: a brow if it does not have a qualifying point
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 1: on a brow. It just comes to the end of
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 1: the palm. So if you want the mature moose have
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 1: a split brow. So that's a characteristic. If you want
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 1: to a good score, your moose has to have split
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 1: brows are better. But if it's forty wide with a
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 1: split brow, that generally will put you at minimum score.
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 1: So that wants to be a two point brow, and
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 1: that'll split down towards the end, So I'll give you
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 1: a little bit more length and increase your score. So
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 1: is it one in twenty? You gotta look at judging
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 1: from the people I know that have had mo stech,
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 1: yeah or less. Like you find a mature bullets, it's
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 1: pretty pretty good. And I mean maybe it's not true
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 1: and Wyoming or some other states, but my limited experience
• 1:24:08
  Speaker 1: with schyris yeah, forty inches and split brow is just
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 1: a good solid bull. You know. Um, earlier we were talking,
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 1: you mentioned an interesting case where you've had Yeah, because
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 1: uh Nanny's mountain goats. So males and females are very
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 1: very similar horns. The females I have sort of like
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 1: a little dog leg like almost like imperceptible little dog
• 1:24:33
  Speaker 1: leg in them when they come up narrower. But you've
• 1:24:36
  Speaker 1: had a female, you had a female mountain goat make
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 1: the books. Yeah, we we got a fifty picture of
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 1: fifty and I don't know if I officially dried. Yeah,
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 1: I don't know that it's been entered yet, but we
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 1: got preliminary pictures of it. And yeah, I mean things
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 1: got I bet you eleven twelve inch horns. Yeah, I mean,
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 1: well it's a Yeah, it's a name that grew insanely
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 1: long horns. And not a lot of people they're shooting nanny,
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 1: so there could be you know, a hundred book nanny's
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 1: that just died of old age. You're still in the
• 1:25:06
  Speaker 1: oh not not really. We get that too. You know,
• 1:25:09
  Speaker 1: people always this the biggest ever. Well it's the largest
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 1: ever taken in fair Chase that was then entered to
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 1: Boone and Crockett. I mean, you know, so there could
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 1: be bigger nannies out there, but we have seen one
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 1: that made our our minimums. But it used to say
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 1: on the score chart male or female. But after we
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 1: had that on there for thirty years and never had
• 1:25:27
  Speaker 1: a female, we did away with him. If here comes
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 1: a female goat, hey, what is it? When? Uh? I
• 1:25:33
  Speaker 1: gotta gripe too. I gotta bring up real quickly as
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 1: you what I'm gonna ask. You know, my grape has
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 1: to do with my halina. But I want you guys
• 1:25:41
  Speaker 1: gonna explain what all time means. But I want to
• 1:25:47
  Speaker 1: give so. I got a gigantic cavelina, I mean a
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 1: giant I don't remember what it was. I measured it
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 1: just like when you measure a bear, like it's length
• 1:26:00
  Speaker 1: and linked fluss with very easy thing to measure. I
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 1: measured my have Elena with my old man's I still
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 1: have my old man's measuring calipers, and I still have
• 1:26:08
  Speaker 1: his genuine I don't know, like nineteen ten. Uh, I
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 1: don't know what that was, very old. Uh little tape
• 1:26:16
  Speaker 1: measure with the pope and young Yeah they're emblem a
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 1: little emblem on it, and his caliper and all that
• 1:26:25
  Speaker 1: kind of garbage, the cable. I got a lot of stuff.
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 1: But I measured my have Elena and then went to
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 1: check and see if it was book. And you guys
• 1:26:34
  Speaker 1: don't accept Havelna's now our our records committee hasn't hasn't
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 1: taken that well. I mean they've taken it on, but
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 1: they haven't decided yet to add that as a category,
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 1: and gators either, right they had and gators not yet either.
• 1:26:50
  Speaker 1: I had to go to your competitor, Safari Club. They're
• 1:26:55
  Speaker 1: competitor there. They're another scoreing organization that I had to
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 1: go there to validate that I had a giant alena. Yeah.
• 1:27:03
  Speaker 1: So the the thing, the first thread the first time
• 1:27:05
  Speaker 1: they looked at the havilina category. In order to have
• 1:27:09
  Speaker 1: a category, the states that have them have to ask
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 1: us and it has to be a managed species. And
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 1: up until like four or five, maybe five or six
• 1:27:15
  Speaker 1: years ago, now Texas did not manage havelina's. They switched
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 1: over to where they actually do manage them now and
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 1: so that was a big hang up. These were just
• 1:27:24
  Speaker 1: kind of a shoot on site in Texas, So we
• 1:27:27
  Speaker 1: can't really create a category form well in Texas, Arizona,
• 1:27:30
  Speaker 1: New Mexico all now manage for him. That by visited
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 1: and so it is being talked about at both Pope
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 1: and Young and Boone and Crockett committee levels. Mines out
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 1: of West Texas, West Tescas nice. So when you get it,
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 1: let me know. I'm gonna run down with mine. I
• 1:27:45
  Speaker 1: wanna be the first guy in the books. Man, I
• 1:27:48
  Speaker 1: got one on the shelf too. That's gonna get give
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 1: your run. I thinks between you and I will flip
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 1: for it. Uh. And then so alligators alligator scenes like
• 1:27:57
  Speaker 1: a stretch that again my understanding that discussion was before
• 1:28:01
  Speaker 1: I was around, but that very rarely is one taken
• 1:28:05
  Speaker 1: in fair chase. Oh ban, Yeah, how do you define?
• 1:28:10
  Speaker 1: So you have to rewrite fair chase. I mean you're
• 1:28:13
  Speaker 1: you're trapping him or you're catching them. It's a trapped animal.
• 1:28:17
  Speaker 1: You know that. That's a good point. You have to
• 1:28:19
  Speaker 1: kind of just go shoot it and run over and
• 1:28:20
  Speaker 1: grab it right. You can put a hook into it,
• 1:28:23
  Speaker 1: which at night we're using a spotlight, which is another.
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 1: So you have to go out in the daytime cold
• 1:28:29
  Speaker 1: cock it in the head with something and then retrieve
• 1:28:32
  Speaker 1: it when you take a buddy you don't like with you.
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 1: I got something that's good to Oh. That's a really
• 1:28:36
  Speaker 1: good point, man, you have to do it take a
• 1:28:38
  Speaker 1: lot of work to accept alligators, and there is there
• 1:28:41
  Speaker 1: is my understanding, as you can in the alligator rut
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 1: if that's what it's called, they will call him and
• 1:28:46
  Speaker 1: you can get him in the day with a bow
• 1:28:48
  Speaker 1: like on land. So there is a very rare situation.
• 1:28:52
  Speaker 1: You could take a fair chase alligator by our standards now,
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 1: but it wouldn't really justify a category. Yeah, I'm with you.
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 1: Would this sample size be big enough to warrant a category.
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 1: That's a good point. Uh, okay, here's the thing you're
• 1:29:06
  Speaker 1: here too. I honestly don't know what this means. People
• 1:29:11
  Speaker 1: will say that it made the all time every day
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 1: of the week. Basically, what does that mean? The all
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 1: time books and the not all times. So basically what
• 1:29:23
  Speaker 1: had happened was is we created this measuring system in
• 1:29:27
  Speaker 1: we didn't know at the time, you know, what that
• 1:29:31
  Speaker 1: would look like, how many entries we would get, And
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 1: so conservation came along. Wildlife populations were doing better, more
• 1:29:38
  Speaker 1: people were harvesting mature animals, and so our record books
• 1:29:42
  Speaker 1: started to grow. And now we're like, okay, we've got
• 1:29:45
  Speaker 1: this data set that keeps growing. You know, what we're
• 1:29:48
  Speaker 1: doing is working. We're getting to a point now where
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 1: every six years we'd have to print encyclopedia and we
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 1: know what happened to encyclopedias. No one's buying encyclopedias more,
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 1: and so in order to sell this book, basically, in
• 1:30:06
  Speaker 1: order to have a book that was manageable, that we
• 1:30:08
  Speaker 1: could print people would buy at a reasonable price, we
• 1:30:11
  Speaker 1: kind of had to create this other number um for
• 1:30:15
  Speaker 1: that trophy to or for that to reach. And so
• 1:30:19
  Speaker 1: basically it was just a way for the Yeah, yeah,
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 1: it was just a way for us. It is. But
• 1:30:27
  Speaker 1: any report. So if you know, one of our university
• 1:30:31
  Speaker 1: programs comes to us or an agency comes to us
• 1:30:33
  Speaker 1: and wants to know, you know, category wise, what are
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 1: you guys seeing, it's always off that that entry score
• 1:30:41
  Speaker 1: for white tail one sixty, you know, for pronghorn eighty,
• 1:30:44
  Speaker 1: whatever the case may be. All our data is based
• 1:30:49
  Speaker 1: off of that one sixty number. And so that that
• 1:30:52
  Speaker 1: other number that we created was basically just a way
• 1:30:57
  Speaker 1: for us to reasonably publish and sell a book. Uh So,
• 1:31:03
  Speaker 1: if one sixty for a white tail makes the book,
• 1:31:05
  Speaker 1: if it's archery, right, an we take any legal means
• 1:31:09
  Speaker 1: the harvest does not separate it out. So one sixty
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 1: makes the book, but what makes the all time? But
• 1:31:16
  Speaker 1: again that's because we'd have if we won sixties identified
• 1:31:20
  Speaker 1: as a top species that needs to be recorded, it
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 1: isn't met our criteria. But we can't put all the
• 1:31:25
  Speaker 1: one sixty plus is from the last eighty years in
• 1:31:29
  Speaker 1: one book, so that's really where it came from. So
• 1:31:31
  Speaker 1: we said, you know what, we're gonna made the year book.
• 1:31:33
  Speaker 1: It's the Awards Book, which is a three year period.
• 1:31:36
  Speaker 1: Everything entered in that three years goes in the Awards Book.
• 1:31:39
  Speaker 1: And then we just have an arbitrary number that the
• 1:31:41
  Speaker 1: very top of the top goes in this all time
• 1:31:44
  Speaker 1: book once every six years, and people don't want to
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 1: hear it, but it's currently one seventy. At the eight
• 1:31:49
  Speaker 1: we're going that number is gonna be one eighty and
• 1:31:50
  Speaker 1: the foreseeable future because well the one we just the
• 1:31:54
  Speaker 1: last all Time book we did is now to volume.
• 1:31:57
  Speaker 1: I'm getting to the point now we're getting so many
• 1:32:00
  Speaker 1: entries that what we thought was going to keep it
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 1: at a one volume book has now expanded, which is great.
• 1:32:05
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's great that there's that many mature animals
• 1:32:09
  Speaker 1: out there that are species are doing well. I mean,
• 1:32:11
  Speaker 1: that's a good sign. I'd rather have that than trying
• 1:32:14
  Speaker 1: to fill pages. Now, do you guys remember my earlier suggestion,
• 1:32:17
  Speaker 1: I want to give you another one now? Okay, yeah,
• 1:32:19
  Speaker 1: that the change in its slightly as we go forward,
• 1:32:22
  Speaker 1: keep doing the old way, but then right the other
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 1: suggestion is this peel off, forget about the threshold for
• 1:32:30
  Speaker 1: the all time. It's the top one hundred or it's
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 1: the top Yeah, we've looked at that. That's been discussed.
• 1:32:39
  Speaker 1: I like your your thoughts in the right place. Top
• 1:32:42
  Speaker 1: one died by the Top one book really yeah, like
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 1: Top one hundred bucks. Yeah, or you could do like
• 1:32:53
  Speaker 1: like women's magazines and have it be the top ninety
• 1:32:55
  Speaker 1: nine just because it catches your because then you're like, wow,
• 1:32:58
  Speaker 1: it must be real if it's ninety and anybody, anybody
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 1: can do a Top one bucks. You know him? Are
• 1:33:05
  Speaker 1: you guys behind the Great Rams Books? Is your names
• 1:33:09
  Speaker 1: in there? Yeah? So we the last two volumes of
• 1:33:12
  Speaker 1: that we've actually published. B and C Publishes Books, and
• 1:33:15
  Speaker 1: so Julie Trips our director of publications, and I think
• 1:33:18
  Speaker 1: it was Great Rams three. We worked with Bob Anderson
• 1:33:20
  Speaker 1: and so we actually did all the publication and whatnot
• 1:33:22
  Speaker 1: of three and four. Is there like, is there an
• 1:33:25
  Speaker 1: equivalent for mulder Um. We did a Mule Deer retrospective.
• 1:33:31
  Speaker 1: We went back and we took all of our old entries,
• 1:33:34
  Speaker 1: the stuff that kind of got dropped and maybe never
• 1:33:36
  Speaker 1: made an Awards book that you wouldn't see. So we
• 1:33:38
  Speaker 1: did a mule Deer retrospective, and we looked at doing
• 1:33:41
  Speaker 1: more of a book like that. But man, that sheep
• 1:33:44
  Speaker 1: worlds just so picturesque and the characters are so defined
• 1:33:49
  Speaker 1: that it's it's a little bit easier to build a
• 1:33:51
  Speaker 1: book around sheep hunters. I think the mule deer hunters.
• 1:33:54
  Speaker 1: There's a there's a book, Idaho's Great as Mule Deer
• 1:33:58
  Speaker 1: by Ryan Hatfield. I wish it was like greatest Meal
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 1: here in the West or whatever, but Idaho's greatest Meal.
• 1:34:02
  Speaker 1: But it's got the stories right. I think that the dude,
• 1:34:07
  Speaker 1: one of the dudes that has one of the best
• 1:34:09
  Speaker 1: bucks ever got in Idaho. He um, he was just
• 1:34:12
  Speaker 1: wrote out on his up behind his hot Yeah, Grover
• 1:34:17
  Speaker 1: Cleveland or something like that, wrote out to shoot a
• 1:34:20
  Speaker 1: buck to eat. Yeah, sees a buck, thinks there something
• 1:34:24
  Speaker 1: wrong with it, shoots it, thinks himself nothing more than
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 1: it was quote a squirrely looking buck or a screwy
• 1:34:30
  Speaker 1: looking buck or something. And in thirty years goes by
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 1: and someone finds it in his garage and like lo
• 1:34:36
  Speaker 1: and behold, it's the biggest come on, Idah Hatfield. Actually
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 1: he was. He had my job, but I went to
• 1:34:47
  Speaker 1: work for BNC. He was the BNC guy that was
• 1:34:49
  Speaker 1: doing those books. Yeah, it's got the it's got the
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 1: best jacket of any book. You go look at the
• 1:34:54
  Speaker 1: Idaho's Greatest Meal dere if you look at the cover
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 1: of the book is hilarious. Um, so what's next for
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 1: Bruning Crockett Man? You guys been around for I can't
• 1:35:05
  Speaker 1: do that kind of thirties there we go? Yeah, yeah,
• 1:35:13
  Speaker 1: is there like a midlife crisis that happened? Like it
• 1:35:15
  Speaker 1: happens like what happens now? Do you guys launch new initiatives?
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 1: Like what should people? Um, if people want to sort
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 1: of see what's going on with Boone and Crocket, what
• 1:35:23
  Speaker 1: do they gotta do? Well, you know, obviously go to
• 1:35:26
  Speaker 1: our website. Um, you know, we try to keep everything
• 1:35:29
  Speaker 1: updated there. But um, you know, we're going to continue
• 1:35:33
  Speaker 1: our policy work with a focus on again have a
• 1:35:36
  Speaker 1: tad health, wildlife health, and public access and because those
• 1:35:40
  Speaker 1: are things that just that are NonStop that you always
• 1:35:44
  Speaker 1: have to address and um you know we uh so
• 1:35:48
  Speaker 1: give me the three guy. I like that wildlife health,
• 1:35:51
  Speaker 1: tad health, and public access. We are mainly are three
• 1:35:56
  Speaker 1: UM focusers. You know, that's a good way to sum
• 1:35:59
  Speaker 1: it up. Yeah, yeah, Ben's and and you know, and
• 1:36:02
  Speaker 1: as administrations change, UM, you know, we have to change
• 1:36:06
  Speaker 1: with those things. So we understand, you know, we can
• 1:36:10
  Speaker 1: deal with what the politics deal are dealt forward, we
• 1:36:14
  Speaker 1: have to deal with the hand that we're dealt I
• 1:36:15
  Speaker 1: guess and UM, but you know, we we just keep
• 1:36:21
  Speaker 1: plug it along and UM and that's really all we
• 1:36:24
  Speaker 1: can do. And you know, we've had some successes, we've
• 1:36:26
  Speaker 1: had some failures. We've had you know, one of the
• 1:36:29
  Speaker 1: most exciting things for a personal perspective, because even before
• 1:36:35
  Speaker 1: Boone and Crockett that that I and probably about three
• 1:36:37
  Speaker 1: or four together select individuals have been working on for
• 1:36:40
  Speaker 1: the past twenty five years. It's full Funding Bill WCF,
• 1:36:43
  Speaker 1: which is could be with the Great Outdoors America a
• 1:36:47
  Speaker 1: Great America Outdoors Act right around the corner for the
• 1:36:50
  Speaker 1: first time in twenty years, I hope. So I feel
• 1:36:52
  Speaker 1: like it's been around the corner for a long time
• 1:36:54
  Speaker 1: now it has. Yes, now you know, we got we
• 1:36:56
  Speaker 1: got full authorization a year ago. UM. Now if we
• 1:37:00
  Speaker 1: at full permanent funding, UM, you know, that's that's a
• 1:37:03
  Speaker 1: big deal, and that's been a long uphill fight. But
• 1:37:06
  Speaker 1: you know, you don't get every you don't get everything done.
• 1:37:10
  Speaker 1: You know. We we try to do things right, not fast,
• 1:37:13
  Speaker 1: and so you know, you've got to kind of look
• 1:37:14
  Speaker 1: at the landscape. Okay, what is that we have twenty
• 1:37:18
  Speaker 1: things on our policy agenda that we would like to
• 1:37:20
  Speaker 1: see done. What out of those things can we get
• 1:37:22
  Speaker 1: done in one particular administration? It might only be six,
• 1:37:26
  Speaker 1: So we focus on those six things for those four
• 1:37:28
  Speaker 1: years or those eight years, and and that's what that's
• 1:37:31
  Speaker 1: what we focus on. UM. You know, for example, right now,
• 1:37:34
  Speaker 1: Endangered Species Act, Well, you know that's an old act.
• 1:37:38
  Speaker 1: It was put in for very good reasons, and we
• 1:37:40
  Speaker 1: need to keep that act, but it does need to
• 1:37:42
  Speaker 1: be modernized. And so UM, I don't know that we
• 1:37:46
  Speaker 1: have the appetite in Congress for that right now. So
• 1:37:49
  Speaker 1: why we don't want to waste our time on that again,
• 1:37:52
  Speaker 1: you know, we just want to focus on the things
• 1:37:53
  Speaker 1: we do think we can move the needle on. And
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 1: but it's always going to fall into one of those
• 1:37:57
  Speaker 1: three categories. I have a to act health, wildlife, health,
• 1:38:00
  Speaker 1: republic access. That's interesting, the need to um, the need
• 1:38:06
  Speaker 1: to adapt that list in order to just be most
• 1:38:08
  Speaker 1: effective with what with what's going on, to be able
• 1:38:12
  Speaker 1: to say, well, you know what, this issue is important
• 1:38:14
  Speaker 1: to us, but now is not the time, but would
• 1:38:16
  Speaker 1: be a great time for this issue, right and then
• 1:38:19
  Speaker 1: and then getting the people together to do that, the
• 1:38:21
  Speaker 1: different conservation organizations out there to help with that, so
• 1:38:26
  Speaker 1: the Rocky Mountain out Foundation, you know, the Pheasants Group,
• 1:38:29
  Speaker 1: the Mule Deer Group, and and so being able to
• 1:38:32
  Speaker 1: bring those people to the table when those issues come
• 1:38:36
  Speaker 1: up and knowing when to strike. Yeah. Yeah, I think
• 1:38:39
  Speaker 1: that's an important point that that Kyle brought up, because,
• 1:38:41
  Speaker 1: you know, one of the things that that our organization
• 1:38:43
  Speaker 1: is able to do because we don't have a dog
• 1:38:46
  Speaker 1: in the fight so to speak in terms of you know,
• 1:38:48
  Speaker 1: events and funding and because we're pretty much eternally funded
• 1:38:52
  Speaker 1: you know, UM, you know, we can we can facilitate
• 1:38:55
  Speaker 1: a lot of things. UM facilitate work with among all
• 1:38:58
  Speaker 1: the different organizations out there. UM twenty years ago this
• 1:39:02
  Speaker 1: in August, we UH, we had a meeting at our
• 1:39:06
  Speaker 1: headquarters with UM with the nonprofits at the time that
• 1:39:09
  Speaker 1: we're involved with sportsman's based conservation. There was seventeen of
• 1:39:13
  Speaker 1: them represented, including some of the ones that Kyle mentioned,
• 1:39:17
  Speaker 1: Rocky Mountinel Foundation, the Meal Deer Guys, National Wild Turkey Federation.
• 1:39:21
  Speaker 1: And you know, the whole objective of that meeting was
• 1:39:24
  Speaker 1: to you know, conservation wasn't moving at the time very
• 1:39:28
  Speaker 1: very well. And um, you know, the club saw an
• 1:39:32
  Speaker 1: opportunity to say, Okay, you know what, we're not succeeding here. Um,
• 1:39:36
  Speaker 1: and we're all going different directions. We gotta we gotta
• 1:39:38
  Speaker 1: check our egos at the door. We gotta check our
• 1:39:40
  Speaker 1: gen as the door. We're gonna sit down and how
• 1:39:42
  Speaker 1: we can work together to get the job done. And
• 1:39:44
  Speaker 1: what boiled out of that original meeting in August the
• 1:39:47
  Speaker 1: two thousand was was an organization of It started out
• 1:39:51
  Speaker 1: to be seventeen. Now today it's forty five sportsman's based
• 1:39:56
  Speaker 1: and shooting sports based organizations that represent roughly eight mill
• 1:40:00
  Speaker 1: and votes. And when there's an issue that comes in
• 1:40:03
  Speaker 1: front of Congress, we draft letters that all these organizations
• 1:40:07
  Speaker 1: signed on to that go to our congressional delegations and
• 1:40:10
  Speaker 1: say we're in favor of this or we're not in
• 1:40:12
  Speaker 1: favor of that, and um, and they listen. I mean,
• 1:40:16
  Speaker 1: eight billion votes is nothing to sneeze at. So you know,
• 1:40:18
  Speaker 1: if you if you look at the sports sporting community overall,
• 1:40:21
  Speaker 1: I think it's better organized than it ever was at
• 1:40:24
  Speaker 1: at that policy level, which is another reason why we're
• 1:40:27
  Speaker 1: actually making some headway in the past. You know a
• 1:40:30
  Speaker 1: few years that that we hadn't you know that we
• 1:40:33
  Speaker 1: hadn't been making but um, but you know, that's one
• 1:40:36
  Speaker 1: of our strengths is to be able to bring those
• 1:40:38
  Speaker 1: kind of groups together and and and and focus on
• 1:40:41
  Speaker 1: a common on common ground. We've had uh with Fosberg,
• 1:40:46
  Speaker 1: who leads the Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership, on the show
• 1:40:50
  Speaker 1: a couple of times, and um, we had him on recently, well,
• 1:40:56
  Speaker 1: I guess it's months ago now. We had an interesting
• 1:40:59
  Speaker 1: point where he's saying that the periods of real bipartisan
• 1:41:03
  Speaker 1: dysfunction aren't necessarily bad for conservation because when you have
• 1:41:10
  Speaker 1: such a tumultuous situation in the House and Senate, oftentimes, uh,
• 1:41:16
  Speaker 1: you can get good pieces of conservation stuff through because
• 1:41:19
  Speaker 1: they're just looking for a win, like these broad these
• 1:41:23
  Speaker 1: things that have some pretty broad support when they have
• 1:41:26
  Speaker 1: nothing going on and everything's acrimonious, it's like a thing
• 1:41:30
  Speaker 1: that they can pass and so he doesn't feel totally
• 1:41:33
  Speaker 1: pessimistic about and that's why he's looking at some of
• 1:41:35
  Speaker 1: the achievements we've had over the last handful of years
• 1:41:38
  Speaker 1: where they had, um, you know, some good conservation bills,
• 1:41:43
  Speaker 1: because his view is that it just gives them at
• 1:41:47
  Speaker 1: least something to kind of agree on and to move
• 1:41:49
  Speaker 1: through some kind of you know, some common sense conservation work.
• 1:41:53
  Speaker 1: I don't know if you share that opinion you look
• 1:41:56
  Speaker 1: at I do. I do, yeah, And TRCP is a
• 1:41:59
  Speaker 1: very active member of that a w c P American
• 1:42:01
  Speaker 1: Wildlife Conservation Partner coalition. I just mentioned UM and they
• 1:42:05
  Speaker 1: were at the first meeting back in two thousands and so.
• 1:42:09
  Speaker 1: And Whitney's what's right. I mean, I think that the divisiveness,
• 1:42:13
  Speaker 1: even though it's not pleasant to deal with, and I'm
• 1:42:17
  Speaker 1: not exactly sure in the overall health of our country
• 1:42:20
  Speaker 1: it is, it is a good thing, you know, UM,
• 1:42:26
  Speaker 1: I will tell you for our world it has at times,
• 1:42:29
  Speaker 1: not all the time, but UM at times worked our
• 1:42:32
  Speaker 1: advantage now where you could say, like, here's something good
• 1:42:35
  Speaker 1: you could do. Yeah, there's a lot of people that
• 1:42:37
  Speaker 1: support this, and or it gets tacked onto some piece
• 1:42:40
  Speaker 1: of legislation to get you know, somebody's bill pass. You know,
• 1:42:44
  Speaker 1: I mean it, so yeah, I think you know it.
• 1:42:48
  Speaker 1: We've tried as a as an outdoor conservation community to
• 1:42:51
  Speaker 1: take advantage of those types of things to do a
• 1:42:54
  Speaker 1: good thing, you know, to to turn what is not
• 1:42:57
  Speaker 1: is not necessarily a great thing into something at least
• 1:43:00
  Speaker 1: at the end of the day can come out as
• 1:43:02
  Speaker 1: a good thing. This this conversation came out of his um.
• 1:43:08
  Speaker 1: In fact, it was towards the it was an early
• 1:43:10
  Speaker 1: the early part of the new year here, and we
• 1:43:13
  Speaker 1: were we had put to him like like like thumbs
• 1:43:17
  Speaker 1: up or thumbs down for conservation, and he had felt
• 1:43:20
  Speaker 1: that it was a thumbs up year. Absolutely absolutely, we
• 1:43:24
  Speaker 1: we made some great home runs last year. That's great
• 1:43:29
  Speaker 1: to hear because you almost think their day. We were
• 1:43:31
  Speaker 1: talking about, you know, the planes tribes. Uh, some planes
• 1:43:36
  Speaker 1: tribes used to have the practice of that they would
• 1:43:38
  Speaker 1: have a robe like a buffalo robe, and basically they
• 1:43:42
  Speaker 1: would distill down a year into a symbol, you know,
• 1:43:48
  Speaker 1: and the symbol could be any number of things, like
• 1:43:50
  Speaker 1: could be like someone being sick, or like something that
• 1:43:53
  Speaker 1: was like a phenomenal year for hunting or whatever. You'd
• 1:43:55
  Speaker 1: like make a thing like to wrap it up, you know,
• 1:43:57
  Speaker 1: And we were just saying, how is shaping up to
• 1:44:00
  Speaker 1: be like the bullshit year? Yeah, you know it would
• 1:44:04
  Speaker 1: have been great, would ended on February eight, you know.
• 1:44:08
  Speaker 1: Unfortunately it didn't. Ye be going great for a minute there. Yeah, yeah,
• 1:44:14
  Speaker 1: but no, I think twenty was a great year for
• 1:44:16
  Speaker 1: for contrivation. Sorry. Yeah, nineteen was a great year. We
• 1:44:20
  Speaker 1: had an ominous bill. We addressed the fire the wildfire
• 1:44:23
  Speaker 1: funding fixed, you know, UM, trying to give our agency
• 1:44:26
  Speaker 1: more money to manage our force instead of fight wildfires.
• 1:44:29
  Speaker 1: And you know that was a great The Farm bill
• 1:44:32
  Speaker 1: had some great had some great wildlife in habitat health
• 1:44:37
  Speaker 1: UM language in it uh S forty seven UM Senate
• 1:44:42
  Speaker 1: Bill forty seven, which had a lot of public lands
• 1:44:46
  Speaker 1: great things for public lands uh in it. Yeah, we
• 1:44:48
  Speaker 1: did we did some. We did some good work last year. Shot.
• 1:44:52
  Speaker 1: I guess if we can get the Great American uh
• 1:44:54
  Speaker 1: was the Sportsman's Act. What's it called the Great American
• 1:44:57
  Speaker 1: Outdoors Act? Outdoors and uh and it's a used to
• 1:45:00
  Speaker 1: be on the docket here within the next couple of weeks.
• 1:45:04
  Speaker 1: Will know that's great because I'm assuming that once like
• 1:45:07
  Speaker 1: October hits, nothing's gonna happen well yeah, campaigns, yeah, you know,
• 1:45:14
  Speaker 1: and and in the past that's kind of what the
• 1:45:16
  Speaker 1: way it's been. Of course, this is you know, you
• 1:45:18
  Speaker 1: never know. But I think we it's in our best
• 1:45:20
  Speaker 1: interest again as a community get as much done as
• 1:45:23
  Speaker 1: we as quickly as we can at this point because
• 1:45:25
  Speaker 1: most of the legislation that's on on deck right now
• 1:45:28
  Speaker 1: has been stuff that's been worked on. So it's not
• 1:45:30
  Speaker 1: like we're trying to create language. Just finished across first
• 1:45:37
  Speaker 1: publishing the deal, so if we can get it across
• 1:45:39
  Speaker 1: the finish line, it'll be great and and that. So
• 1:45:43
  Speaker 1: to ask your question, I don't think shot. I think
• 1:45:46
  Speaker 1: it's hanging in the balance. I feel shot well from
• 1:45:51
  Speaker 1: we're only on the sixth month right, feel like it
• 1:45:54
  Speaker 1: just needs to go away and start understand I'm the
• 1:45:58
  Speaker 1: eternal optimist too, but um but now, you know, we
• 1:46:01
  Speaker 1: still got some some good things going out there. I mean,
• 1:46:04
  Speaker 1: I think again, the health of our country, the health
• 1:46:07
  Speaker 1: of our economy. It you know, it's a driver that
• 1:46:11
  Speaker 1: is gonna resonate with um, you know, with funding for
• 1:46:16
  Speaker 1: what we want to do in you know, in in
• 1:46:18
  Speaker 1: in the conservation arena and but by and large the
• 1:46:23
  Speaker 1: public in general, I think they realized they may not
• 1:46:28
  Speaker 1: know why, but that you know, our natural resources in
• 1:46:33
  Speaker 1: our country are probably the most valuable asset that we
• 1:46:35
  Speaker 1: have and without those, regardless of Wall Street or anything else,
• 1:46:39
  Speaker 1: nothing's nothing else is going to take and you know,
• 1:46:42
  Speaker 1: so we've got to maintain the health and viability of
• 1:46:46
  Speaker 1: our natural resource space. I'm glad to hear that you
• 1:46:49
  Speaker 1: think that the public recognizes that, because I don't know
• 1:46:51
  Speaker 1: if I always feel that way. It's well, it goes
• 1:46:56
  Speaker 1: back to thee the point about the you know, the
• 1:46:58
  Speaker 1: quote environmental is um. You know, so you know, there's
• 1:47:02
  Speaker 1: it does It doesn't make any difference exactly what what
• 1:47:05
  Speaker 1: the hell they think, but they're at least aware of it,
• 1:47:08
  Speaker 1: and um they may not again, they may not know why,
• 1:47:13
  Speaker 1: they may not be exactly have all the right reasons,
• 1:47:16
  Speaker 1: but at the same time, you know, folks are kind
• 1:47:20
  Speaker 1: of aware of the fact that you know, are you know,
• 1:47:23
  Speaker 1: it's kind of important that we have a healthy environment
• 1:47:25
  Speaker 1: to live in, and it's a healthy in Now, there's
• 1:47:28
  Speaker 1: gonna be people to think we're cutting down too many trees.
• 1:47:31
  Speaker 1: There's gonna be people that think they're not cutting down enough.
• 1:47:33
  Speaker 1: You know, science points to right now, we need more
• 1:47:36
  Speaker 1: active forest management overall. That's not going to be agreeable
• 1:47:40
  Speaker 1: with with everybody. But the point I'm making is people
• 1:47:43
  Speaker 1: are noticing it. You know, people are saying, you know,
• 1:47:46
  Speaker 1: we've got a forest health problem and um, and I
• 1:47:50
  Speaker 1: think that's a positive thing. Yeah, even though some of
• 1:47:52
  Speaker 1: the details might become a little contentious. Details are always contentious.
• 1:47:56
  Speaker 1: The devil's in the details. Yeah. I like to think
• 1:47:58
  Speaker 1: I have, um, you know, I have a borderline like
• 1:48:06
  Speaker 1: unconditional love for my country, like a deep patriotism. And
• 1:48:10
  Speaker 1: it's hard to picture, like, yeah, how would I feel
• 1:48:13
  Speaker 1: differently if it was Um, would I feel differently if
• 1:48:17
  Speaker 1: it was like an environmental waste land. They're not gonna
• 1:48:20
  Speaker 1: help it, right, it's not gonna help. Well, I just
• 1:48:25
  Speaker 1: I grew up over the hill here in Butte, Montana,
• 1:48:27
  Speaker 1: which you know, back when I grew up as a kid,
• 1:48:30
  Speaker 1: was not exactly the most environmentally pleasant place to look at. Um,
• 1:48:34
  Speaker 1: but I will tell you, you know, they've made great
• 1:48:36
  Speaker 1: strides and correcting that problem. And and no, you know,
• 1:48:40
  Speaker 1: throwing fist throwing, but you know, but your point is
• 1:48:44
  Speaker 1: well taken. I mean, if we don't have our natural
• 1:48:46
  Speaker 1: resource base. We don't have you know, wild places and
• 1:48:49
  Speaker 1: wildlife that have it, those wild places to enjoy as
• 1:48:52
  Speaker 1: a country. Um, you know, I just I don't. I
• 1:48:56
  Speaker 1: think the patriotism part becomes a lot more difficult, for sure. Yeah,
• 1:49:00
  Speaker 1: there's a lot to be proud of, right, and it didn't.
• 1:49:04
  Speaker 1: And the thing I try to more and more point
• 1:49:05
  Speaker 1: out to people is, um, like growing up, you know,
• 1:49:10
  Speaker 1: as a little kid or whatever, you you think all
• 1:49:12
  Speaker 1: the great things and the wildlife and stuffer uh just
• 1:49:17
  Speaker 1: there like by accident, untouched like untouched by the hands
• 1:49:22
  Speaker 1: of man, right, and then later you're like, oh no,
• 1:49:25
  Speaker 1: they got touched there there because people. They're there because
• 1:49:30
  Speaker 1: people are like decided to have it be there. It
• 1:49:32
  Speaker 1: was a conscious decision. It was a conscious decision that
• 1:49:37
  Speaker 1: like cost money and cost time, and it was like,
• 1:49:40
  Speaker 1: there's nothing accidental, no North American model. It's awesome. They
• 1:49:46
  Speaker 1: realized that was that it's awesome. They realized that. Well,
• 1:49:50
  Speaker 1: I realized, but it took me thirty years to realize it. Well,
• 1:49:53
  Speaker 1: I mean back in the late Yeah, it was realized
• 1:49:57
  Speaker 1: and that people had the foresight that they didn't just
• 1:49:59
  Speaker 1: let walk off some species. But but again, I mean,
• 1:50:05
  Speaker 1: that's just awesome that that a group of people or
• 1:50:08
  Speaker 1: a collective of people took that on and said we
• 1:50:11
  Speaker 1: can't let this happen. Yeah, they tried to do like
• 1:50:15
  Speaker 1: you know, try to do the impossible, or or what
• 1:50:18
  Speaker 1: other people were. That's the thing I would like to
• 1:50:20
  Speaker 1: bring up. And it's similar to when Boone and Crockett
• 1:50:22
  Speaker 1: started out is Um. When I was working on a
• 1:50:25
  Speaker 1: book American Buffalo. Uh, I talked about that guy Horn today,
• 1:50:30
  Speaker 1: m and um. They were so sure that animals gone.
• 1:50:35
  Speaker 1: That's why the National Collection was started. They were so
• 1:50:37
  Speaker 1: sure it was gone. They dispatched him out by rail
• 1:50:41
  Speaker 1: on like an emergency order to go shoot a couple
• 1:50:43
  Speaker 1: and save the skeletons because they wanted they wanted to
• 1:50:47
  Speaker 1: be able to have like a specimen and they wanted
• 1:50:49
  Speaker 1: hides and skeletons, and they're like, hurry, yeah, now is
• 1:50:53
  Speaker 1: your chance. Well that was originally the measuring system too,
• 1:50:57
  Speaker 1: was so we could kind of picture man. Yeah, he
• 1:51:01
  Speaker 1: was supposed to go get like as many as he
• 1:51:02
  Speaker 1: could get so that Sunday people will be like that's
• 1:51:05
  Speaker 1: what it looked like when they truck one back to
• 1:51:08
  Speaker 1: the Bronx Zoo and then they had a buffalo sitting
• 1:51:12
  Speaker 1: there hanging out in New York and Bronx. Yeah. That's
• 1:51:14
  Speaker 1: one of the great ironies of that story is that
• 1:51:18
  Speaker 1: later when they tried to one of the projects of
• 1:51:22
  Speaker 1: bringing them back to the Great Plains, that they had
• 1:51:24
  Speaker 1: to use as a source herd the Bronx Zoo. Yeah,
• 1:51:27
  Speaker 1: they're like bringing them. They're bringing bison from the east
• 1:51:30
  Speaker 1: to the West, which, like that collector mentality um, proved
• 1:51:36
  Speaker 1: to be pretty valuable. So where are you guys? How
• 1:51:39
  Speaker 1: do people find you? Guys in the web? Hopefully you
• 1:51:41
  Speaker 1: got Boone and Crockett domain. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we got
• 1:51:45
  Speaker 1: on that one. So yeah, just type that in and
• 1:51:48
  Speaker 1: you'll find us. That's great, man. And if you got
• 1:51:50
  Speaker 1: you know, next time you're over at your grandpa's barn
• 1:51:52
  Speaker 1: and you find some crazy deer heading there. Yeah, I
• 1:51:55
  Speaker 1: call one of our four official measures out there, and
• 1:51:58
  Speaker 1: you can find those on our webs right, and maybe
• 1:52:01
  Speaker 1: you'll make the all time, maybe you'll make the top us.
• 1:52:04
  Speaker 1: It doesn't matter. Justin says a lot of times that
• 1:52:07
  Speaker 1: you know, we'd much rather see let's take white tail.
• 1:52:11
  Speaker 1: We'd much rather see a hundred sixty inch white tail
• 1:52:13
  Speaker 1: out of an area we've never seen it before. Then
• 1:52:16
  Speaker 1: the next two white tail, because that's that's telling us
• 1:52:20
  Speaker 1: more about the management that you know, whatever this area
• 1:52:24
  Speaker 1: was doing is now producing mature animals. So it's more
• 1:52:30
  Speaker 1: exciting for us to see that animal come in from
• 1:52:33
  Speaker 1: an area that we haven't might not have previously seen
• 1:52:37
  Speaker 1: something come in, or we were seeing him from there
• 1:52:39
  Speaker 1: and then they kind of dropped off and now they're
• 1:52:41
  Speaker 1: cooking back up. You know what book I really want
• 1:52:44
  Speaker 1: the more I think about it, this would be a
• 1:52:46
  Speaker 1: custom book you can make just for me. It'd be
• 1:52:49
  Speaker 1: just called the Top one hundred, but it's the Top
• 1:52:51
  Speaker 1: one hundred everything. So it's all of the things, all
• 1:52:56
  Speaker 1: of the North American game animals. But it's like, and
• 1:52:59
  Speaker 1: you might you know, I don't know if it winds
• 1:53:01
  Speaker 1: up being you just have to figure out the ratio, right,
• 1:53:04
  Speaker 1: so be like probably like you probably want twenty white tails,
• 1:53:07
  Speaker 1: ten mule deer, one goat, So what about that would
• 1:53:11
  Speaker 1: be a good But what about a picked up head? Sure?
• 1:53:14
  Speaker 1: I don't care, I mean, you don't care if there's
• 1:53:16
  Speaker 1: not a story, I don't want that. The Top hundred,
• 1:53:21
  Speaker 1: B and C. And it'd be like you know, you
• 1:53:24
  Speaker 1: just well, how do you want to break it out?
• 1:53:25
  Speaker 1: Like you don't want to It can't be like fifty
• 1:53:27
  Speaker 1: mountain goats. That's not gonna be that's not gonna be
• 1:53:30
  Speaker 1: very exciting. Like oh, mountain goat act. I would like
• 1:53:33
  Speaker 1: to have two lions in it. The mountain goats are
• 1:53:35
  Speaker 1: the best stories we have. Nobody kills a good goat
• 1:53:38
  Speaker 1: that doesn't almost die. Like three dollars sheet, you'd probably
• 1:53:41
  Speaker 1: have five big horns. This is getting recorded right fills
• 1:53:46
  Speaker 1: an outline the whole alright, Boone Crocket Club, Thank you
• 1:53:52
  Speaker 1: very much. Guys, we should have done this a long
• 1:53:53
  Speaker 1: time ago. Um, next time something weird happens, let us know,
• 1:53:58
  Speaker 1: you know, I want to have it be that when
• 1:54:01
  Speaker 1: you get uh that when you have a hard call
• 1:54:05
  Speaker 1: to make, like like the bear thing or something that, um,
• 1:54:10
  Speaker 1: we can come down and participate in making the call. Okay,
• 1:54:13
  Speaker 1: probably like like here's what I do. And then that
• 1:54:18
  Speaker 1: guy will run into every hunting publication being that damn
• 1:54:21
  Speaker 1: Ronella metalized me. That's good. It gets us off of
• 1:54:25
  Speaker 1: us and puts it on someone else. Fill the side
• 1:54:28
  Speaker 1: will be like Phil, what do you think? Phil also
• 1:54:33
  Speaker 1: point out that Boone and Crocket Club has a discount
• 1:54:35
  Speaker 1: code where listeners of the of this pod here you
• 1:54:39
  Speaker 1: can get ten bucks off a yearly subscription to Fair
• 1:54:43
  Speaker 1: Chase magazine. You just got to use the code me eater.
• 1:54:48
  Speaker 1: And so that's for folks listening right now are like,
• 1:54:50
  Speaker 1: it's kind of interesting, Well go find out just how
• 1:54:53
  Speaker 1: interesting and get your discount on Boone and Crockett Clubs
• 1:54:57
  Speaker 1: publication Fair Chase. All right, thanks guys, yea, thanks for
• 1:55:01
  Speaker 1: having us. It's immediate podcast talking bout things you might
• 1:55:12
  Speaker 1: want to hear. It's needy podcasts people about things you
• 1:55:27
  Speaker 1: might want to talk about, hunting and fishing and conservation,
• 1:55:38
  Speaker 1: and occasionally by white tailed de Go underwear Steve Vernell.
• 1:55:51
  Speaker 1: He's the whole man. That guy likes to talk, so
• 1:56:05
  Speaker 1: purely bug mitton underwear less Stevens as a host man
• 1:56:11
  Speaker 1: that fella loves to talk. But make no mistake about it,
• 1:56:21
  Speaker 1: my friends, that skinny guy, and he also walks along right.
• 1:56:35
  Speaker 1: Can a hand in theis? Tell you know, how can
• 1:56:40
  Speaker 1: you not be a fan killing Yana Germany? Indeed we
• 1:56:55
  Speaker 1: should all be fans. Okayl's got this conservation podcast in
• 1:57:07
  Speaker 1: Yanni as the world's most alf of man. There's a
• 1:57:19
  Speaker 1: lot to talk time in conservation and things we do
• 1:57:25
  Speaker 1: and don't want to see. Lots to talk about conservation
• 1:57:37
  Speaker 1: things we do when you don't want to see, all
• 1:57:49
  Speaker 1: kinds of hunting and fishing techniques and bas by c
• 1:57:56
  Speaker 1: W porn fingers and other weird injuries, hunting half and
• 1:58:09
  Speaker 1: hunting fishing down on the farm, porn fingers and ripped
• 1:58:20
  Speaker 1: nipples and other eye injuries part of hunting fishing, her
• 1:58:24
  Speaker 1: life on the farm. But if you're lucky like I was,
• 1:58:37
  Speaker 1: you know what that we just sold that thing right
• 1:58:39
  Speaker 1: back on. Uh, we're in the hunt in public access
• 1:58:52
  Speaker 1: two more subjects. You should all care about getting people
• 1:59:03
  Speaker 1: out hunting public land and access m in the two things.
• 1:59:07
  Speaker 1: And we should all care about fishing, catch your release.
• 1:59:23
  Speaker 1: You think it matters to travel? I do so. Welcome
• 1:59:32
  Speaker 1: to this podcast friends, it's good to have you do.
• 1:59:45
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the media podcasted people, get some good have
• 1:59:52
  Speaker 1: you here. Just remember some of these things might seem
• 2:00:02
  Speaker 1: real simple, but others they're not so clear. Yeah, it's long,
• 2:00:21
  Speaker 1: is that well? I can cleane that up. Look, you
• 2:00:25
  Speaker 1: get the idea