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278 | What Would You Change In Your Ministry? | SMC Podcast · Student Ministry Conversations

• speaker-0: Hey and welcome back to the podcast. And so we are doing something completely different this week, and I think it's for the better. Honestly, I think this is gonna be fun. But one of the things that David and I have done is we we I don't know if it's an accident or if it's a blessing in disguise, but sometimes we just automatically plan out four weeks for each month, and October has four or has five episodes. And so we finished our series for October. last week, which gives us an opportunity to do something different and do something new. And so we are going to just have a conversation today about the over the question, what would you change about your ministry right now? And so hopefully it's just an honest conversation about what's working, what's not, and what we would do differently. And so basically hopefully we'll kind of encompass the idea though The healthy ministry leaders are willing to evaluate what they're doing, acknowledge what needs improvement, and make changes that better serve the students that God has entrusted them with. And what better way to do this than we are actually going to have the conversation in front of y'all. And we're just going to have this as kind of an example, and then we'll lead into the idea of challenging you to run your own personal ministry assessment. And so the idea will just be. and here's the question that I think every youth pastor should ask themselves occasionally. If you could change three things about your student ministry right now, what would they be? Not three things you wish you'd done differently ten years ago, not three things you would change if you had a a like unlimited budget or if you had twenty extra volunteers. I'm talking about your ministry that you're leading today, the students you currently have, the volunteers you're currently working with, the programs you're currently running. the challenges you're currently navigating, what would you change? And so this episode's gonna be completely different. like I said, it's gonna be a lot more back and forth between me and David. and it's not necessarily a teaching outline. It's just going to be us evaluating our own ministries in real time. and hopefully with this the goal isn't to make our ministries sound better than they are or it isn't to criticize things that we're doing. It's just to model a willingness to examine ministry honestly. So some things to think through as we go through these questions is the ideas of maybe the well, I don't know, maybe we can just start with these as a as a discussion and then move in, David, if we want to to the three changes. why is it difficult for ministry leaders to admit that something needs to change? speaker-1: So I think that there is a real fear with this. It and to be fair, from my experience and especially in conversations with others, like I had a conversation with somebody who sent me an evaluation they got from their church and it was brutal, dude. Really, really brutal. And he was like, Hey, you know me well enough, you've done ministry with me enough, we've talked enough, can you help me understand like how much of this is like I need a perspective of is this something that I need to push back on or is this something that I need to like look in the mirror and and see some things that I'm not seeing? And I think I think there was a little bit of both. in in in every situation. I mean if you've been in ministry for any amount of time, more than likely you have gotten some some criticism about certain aspects of your ministry. And it's not always they're not always bad things. Sometimes it's Hey, because of your personality, you need to recruit somebody to counter you. if you're not, if you're a super creative, head in the clouds, entertaining, fun person, but can't do administration, then you either need to learn a little bit more or you need to lean into having someone who can help you, whether that's a volunteer thing, or you, you know, go and and spend some time with your your church secretary and learn. Learn the the proper procedures. Whatever, there's a lot of different ways to look at that. And so I think having honest conversations with that, I think you have to know your strengths and you have to know your weaknesses. And weaknesses aren't necessarily something that should be weaponized, although I have certainly been in a situation where those weaknesses are weaponized against you. but if you look at as okay, my weaknesses are not something that Have to drown me or my ministry. If you look at it and say, Okay, these are the things that I bring to the table, now I need to spend some time recruiting people who have the strengths that I don't have to well round out our youth ministry. That's when start like you can actually start to have a little bit more fun with it. you're not constantly worried about the things that are not happening because it's not in your wheelhouse, if that makes sense. So, I think that's one of the the probably the the biggest thing that can help in in our own self-evaluations is saying, what do I bring to the table and what do I lack and who can help me with that? Whether that's helping strengthen your own skills or having somebody come alongside. I think you kind of need both, personally, Brent. I think you need you need to be working on on making yourself better, but also recruiting people. Don't just necessarily pass off the buck to somebody else because they have it, help them. Or or work alongside them and let them help lift you up. You know what I mean? And so you know, so for a real time evaluation, I think I've talked about this before here, but cooking is not my strength. It's just not. now I have gotten better because I've had to be. So I think that's a good example of cooking is one of those things where I kind of need to pass it off because I'm doing at times, especially being worship and youth, I'm doing too much. And so there are are times, especially on a Sunday, we do a Sunday night meal every single night. and there are some Sundays where I really legitimately don't have the time to cook a meal. and I've done it anyway. that has made me better as a cook to the point where I can actually give them something that they really like. Like I've actually had a couple of meals that they're like, Wow this is really good. You got should stop saying you don't cook. But that's because I've got better. So it's one of those it's it's a real time example of I need to pass this on to people who are wired to not only cook well but also like to be able to know how to cook a large scale meal and can help, you know, set a schedule for other parents and help her mind and stuff like that. I have a person who does that really well. But that doesn't mean I just say, Okay, great. You're good at this, and and I've got a group of people, so y'all handle that, and I'm just gonna go focus on this. Though that's helpful, I also need to be ready to step in at any time. Because the thing we need to remember, and maybe this is this is a line for us to consider as we talk about everything we have to talk about tonight. tonight, today, can you tell I'm already thinking about tonight being a Wednesday night? all the things that we have to do is we are not above anything. In ministry. I think some of us need to hear that. Some of us it is not my job. I am the youth pastor, my job is to do youth. Okay. But you're also a church member. And I think we need to hear this. We are also church members. We belong to this church, which means if you find trash on the floor, you pick it up. If the paper towels in the bathroom is empty, you go to the maintenance closet and you go fill it up yourself. If a toilet needs to be unclogged, you go do it. you are not above anything. And if we have that mentality that we're not above anything, I think it helps us come to a place where we're we're serving more with a joyful heart and and having that servant's heart because and I know that's not necessarily something that everybody just inherently has, but if we have that mentality, even if you're not somebody who is happy to serve in the little things. You will start to develop that the more you you tell yourself, Hey, I'm a church member, why not me? I tell our students that all the time. Yeah. Why not me? speaker-0: No, I I definitely think so and I I think that's something that could definitely kinda work towards just the betterment of everybody is just realizing that you're not perfect. and I think a lot of times that probably like I think the other side of this, admitting some like having difficulty that admitting something needs to change is a lot of times we feel like we are the failure if we change. And so like we don't wanna change because then like that would admit that we're not doing as good as we could do and all this stuff and it becomes a pride issue and i it's a it's a dangerous, dangerous cycle b but like a healthy leader changes things. You have to like be up with the times, like you know, just the mindset of like if you if you stay the same, what is it, the seven words of a dying church, we've all we've always done it like that? Or what something of that nature what five words of a dying church? We've always done it this way or something of that nature. so I I think there it has to be a understanding of health when it comes to changes. And part of addressing things that need a change is being okay to people saying, Hey, this isn't working. Can we can we work on this? That's not a stab to your pride. That's an opportunity for a volunteer or a student to step up and say, Hey, I think this will be more beneficial. Could we potentially think about this? And it works nine times out of ten because it's People in your group with real and honest opinions that most of the time are healthy and edifying to the actual group instead of being negative or harmful. speaker-1: That's an opportunity to disciple. If someone comes to you and they see something, I am very quick to say, Hey, maybe there's a reason why God put that on your heart and maybe you're the person that needs to help lead that. Now that doesn't necessarily mean they have to be up front, if that's not something that they they feel gifted in or wanna do, but you can you can absolutely push them a little bit and say, Hey, I think that's a really good idea if I give you the ball will you run with it? And I'll I'll be there to help you, I'll get you whatever resources you need, I'll stand with you, whatever. And and I found there it's typically leads to some pretty cool opportunities, whether it's a one off or a whole new ministry. I mean, I I've seen I've seen so many of both. So be be willing to encourage. When people come to you with ideas or complaints, that is an opportunity to let them lead. Don't miss it. speaker-0: Yeah, definitely. And I I think this leads to the second discussion prompt of the idea of, sometimes do we cons sometimes do we confuse consistency with effectiveness. and I think very, very much so, because I think if it's like if it's not causing fires, it's working. And like that's that's not a great mentality either, because like it that's not something you can well, first off If that is a bar to set an expectation on, that is the lowest bar you can possibly set an expectation on. It's not on fire, so we're fine. like so with that, I think the idea of like consistency being a measure of effectiveness, no, that's not that's not what we need to be doing at all. And so I think sometimes though we confuse that idea and we confuse the fact that like just because something is working and people are showing up to it means that it's working well. And that's not always the case. speaker-1: we have to remember getting speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: into a place of a rut is still consistent. speaker-0: Yeah. A hundred percent. That's a good point. and I I think that's the mindset is like, you know, I've I've had this in my I've had this in pretty much every ministry where I come in with the preconceived notion of like this is the curriculum I'm gonna use, it's gonna work because it worked at my last church, and like effectiveness there doesn't necessarily translate to effectiveness at a new location. and I think that's something that most youth pastors have understood. But if you're in a if you're a first time youth pastor in your first time church, something to consider is the idea. That just because it works in one environment doesn't mean it's gonna work the same in the next environment. And so speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: Or it or even in the same environment, yeah. And I I think that bleeds into the third discussion prompt that we have. It's like, how much of our ministry calendar exists because we've always done it that way. speaker-1: We have to consider this is a little bit off of last point, but I think it it it pivots into this one as well is when you've been in in a certain church for a length of time, like Brent is has been for a while, we've kind of talked about this a little bit, but like we have to remember that our youth ministry changes every single year. Think about it. You graduate seniors out and you get a new crop of sixth graders. That means old is going away, the new is coming. Yeah to get a little biblical with it. So like The things that worked for your seniors, that is a group. But from si sixth grade to senior year, we can't just treat it like they all think and perceive and feel exactly the same way, even if they all go to the same schools. Because look at your high school ministry, look at your junior high ministry. Yeah. The priorities are different. They are. Sure. And so we can't just expect because it worked here, because I'll be honest, there are times there are certain things That I like to maybe revisit every four four years or so because four years is pretty much a youth ministry cycle, if you think about it, in a lot of ways. Yeah. and so sometimes I like to revisit thoughts or conversations that we've had before and just ask. And there have been some that was like, Man, that really fit a need for where our culture was. It no longer fits that need. If we're talking about you know. Faith over fear was like the constant faith message of the COVID era. It's a little played out now. You know what I mean? Like it's to a point where for me to have a conversation about faith over fear, I think the students would go would check out because they're like, Okay, yeah, we've heard it a million times. Now ten years from now, yeah, they might need to be reminded 'cause they weren't old enough at that time. speaker-0: But I think that goes into teaching. I think that goes into event planning. I think that goes into everything. When I started and he said I've been at this like I've been in my church for a while, ti I'll be May first is ten years. and so with that, like yeah, a hundred percent. I've been here long enough to see multiple groups of sixth grade graduate now, and that's really, really cool and it's something I've wanted to do for a long time. and so but with this, the number of things that I've noticed, We we went from a group that had no hunger, no desire for worship to now we have a youth group that would rather stay in worship than do lessons. we have a group that used to be very game intensive and game heavy and really, really showed up for all the other activities 'cause I've said before, we don't do games on Wednesday nights. We have games on Sunday nights once a month and it's like a hey, this is a fun activity that you can bring a friend to before you bring them to Wednesday nights. just different atmosphere, a lot more a lot less awkward, I guess, for the first time visitor. And so we've moved from like where we used to have thirty, forty kids show up to game nights. We had our biggest game night and like this has consistently been the game night for years now where we've pulled at least twenty, twenty five kids every single year. We had thirteen show up this past event. And it's it's just one of those things we've noticed that the dynamics of our ministry are changing once again. And it's the idea that the kids are like, I don't really I mean like games are fun, but I I they're not as important as the rest of the things I need to get done. So lot of kids just don't show up. speaker-1: That's awesome. speaker-0: and so priorities are just they're they're not there for those. and it might be just because it's on a Sunday night too, and the priorities and plans on Sunday nights have changed a little bit as well. But change is still happening. And if you're sitting there being like, Well, we've always done it this way, I can't believe that they're just not doing what they're supposed to be doing. It's like, no. Your groups of old, your groups from past years have done this. This group is saying, Hey, this doesn't work for us. So we have to be open and be mindful about making changes. Yeah. So I mean, really, really important though. Like, and and then it also goes into the idea of, you know, like. What does your ministry calendar show? we had Jerry Varner on the podcast a couple times and he said something that I'll never forget. It's like, show me your minist show me your ministry calendar and I'll show you where your priorities are. And it's just the mindset of when we look at the idea of our ministry calendar existing because we've always done it that way, how much of that is like, what is it, what priorities does it show? Are we promoting busyness within our youth ministry just because? I worked at a church that literally over the summer I was required by the church to ha we had a gym in our church. I was required to have the gym open every single Monday through Friday of the summer from twelve to three thirty PM every single day because they were like, Well, the kids are out, they need a place to go hang out. I had three to seven kids show up normally and they'd play basketball for an hour and leave. And like So with that, it's just the dynamic of sometimes busyness doesn't even necessarily reflect well. Like kids don't want to be more busy. Kids are trying to find rest and they're like I think that's been a shift in our culture too, is like this idea of like, you know, I think it's okay for me to just like chill for an afternoon when like previous generations are like, no, like you can't rest. Like you'll rest when you're dead. and like I I it's another change I'm seeing. And it's a really, really cool change. And so, we have to be able to adjust calendars, adjust schedules, adjust the ideas of ministry in every facet. Because like everything is up for grabs. So, and then the last thing is like, you know, is there something you already need know needs adjusting, but you just haven't made time to adjust it? Maybe you've been sitting on that idea forever that's just this, like, well, like we need to fix this, we need to fix this, we need to fix this. I'm gonna be straight up transparent and honest. We've used a curriculum for The entire time that I've been here and I have new volunteers teaching it this year and they're not gonna be here, so I had to find volunteers that would step in for them to cover and they were like, Hey, we need the curriculum and I pulled the curriculum up to look at it, and I was like, Every time I look at this curriculum, I'm like, This is the most abysmal presentation of this curriculum possible. I need to make edits to this, I need to make changes to this, I need to make edits to this, I need to make changes to this. Finally, last night, I made changes to it because I was like, I'm literally making volunteers step in and teach sixth graders with the most horrible not the not content-wise, the content was fine, but the most horrible presentation of content I've ever seen. And I'm not gonna go into what curriculum or anything to that nature because I think that's the wrong idea. But I literally went and I redid the entire curriculum, kept all of their content, we still watch their videos, but we completely reworked the discussion guides because I was like I'm I'm literally giving them nothing resource wise. So stuff like that that you might need adjustment. Maybe you're like, Hey, next year let's change the and it can be small, next year let's let's order less T shirts or next year let's add five hundred dollars to our food budget or Whatever, and we just keep forgetting, keep forgetting, keep forgetting. Or hey, we need to paint that wall the number of years that I've seen that happen too. there's totally all those things that we know adjustments need to happen, but have you actually gotten around to doing it? yeah. So and David, I think you kind of hit this earlier is just the idea of just because something has worked in the past doesn't automatically mean it's the best approach for our students today. And so evaluation is huge and that's what we're gonna kinda transition into for most of the remainder of this conversation. Take it away, David. speaker-1: I was like it it point two says Brent's three changes, not mine. speaker-0: Yes, but you're leading this part and I lead your part. speaker-1: You're the leader, I'm just the guy who gets us off track. All right, let's go. So we can you tell we're not in our normal routine? I thrive on routine, guys. So anyway, so as we've talked about, the We really wanted to to be honest and transparent about things in our current ministry. we had even talked about like do we we think about like our past and things that we would have done different and stuff like that. And I think we've done a little bit of that on the podcast anyway. but here's the thing. It's I not to sound too callous about it, but it's in the past. Like we can't change it. Let's move on and look at where we currently are. Learn from those mistakes that I I'm Absolutely learn from them, think about them, you know, look back on on journals and stuff like that. That's all very healthy and very good. But where are we currently? Sometimes we can get so stuck in looking at the past or or or looking to the future, but we really need to focus on the here and now and where we are and and being where our feet are planted, you know? And so this whole idea is really built around kind of three actual changes. that we would like to make in our current ministry. So so essentially what we're we're gonna ask it in three different ways. number one, Brent, what would you change? Like if you could change anything about your current ministry. Now now keep in mind that Brent is obviously doing student and music ministry. So I think both are fair game. speaker-0: throw a rent. I'll I'll pro I was gonna say I'll pr I'll probably stick to youth ministry just for the sake of the audience. but man I So I I had a couple different things pop to mind and I'm trying to I'm struggling having a first. but I think more than anything what I would probably do is I really would like to change the the the amount of time any and all leaders within my youth ministry, it it's it's it almost seems more like quantity time over quality time. and I I have volunteers that are there weekly, volunteers that are super invested. Me and my associate youth pastor are super invested, but a lot of times we miss out on the quality of time because we're we're we're focused on all the things that need to be done in the quantity of time. and I think that's the I think that's the first directive that I probably need to say and that's that starts with me. there's there's a lot of things where like it's just the the preparation and the presentation of how things go. oftentimes I'm I I will admit like the number of the it's embarrassing the number of weeks even this semester so far that I have made slides and then forgot to put them in the computer in the youth room. And so I have to run back there and put them in last minute while when I'm supposed to be starting. And so just working on the idea of making the most of the time that I use, and that's that's administratively, that's logistically, but that's also just in relationship with the students as well. And I think that's where I would want my volunteers to continue as well, is like, I I really want to go towards the effort of pushing my volunteers to be involved in the lives of the students that they have outside of youth. And right now that's pretty non existent. And so it is something that I definitely want to pursue. but there's also a fine line of navigation that I have to work towards on the idea that like, you know, they all have their own lives, they all have families, they all have school, whatever. because I have some college leaders, I have a husband and a wife that have a daughter, they both have full time jobs, like they they all have their own responsibilities and own obligations. And so like, how do I how do we work and navigate towards inviting them into the process of becoming more a part of the lives of the students that they have in their groups. so quality over quantity, I guess would be my number one. we spend a lot of time with students, but let's make sure that we're utilizing that time to the best that we can, if that makes sense. speaker-1: Yeah, so from there, because I was kind of thinking through like, but you did a really good job of of evaluating not only what it was, but how you would would change that and how that starts with you personally. so how do you help get that idea across to your students? Because there is there is a point where we do it a certain way that it becomes consistent in what the students expect. So to speak, no, not saying necessarily forgetting to put your slides in, but for quality time versus quantity, I could see this playing out in a sense of which obviously with your current group, mm I think they maybe naturally already do this, but like for for that, say you're having a small group conversation and you're like, Hey, I love all of like I love the community, I love the fellowship, I love the energy, but I really we have thirty minutes and I wanna be really so like we're gonna take twel sure, you know, let's look at our our hour. How do you break that down? if you if if you even need to make a change. I don't know if I'm asking this well because you explain speaker-0: Yeah, and and that might be that might be an opportunity and the way that I teach as far I mean we meet for an hour and a half. We do thirty minutes of worship and then the last probably f actually I'd say probably twenty five ish minutes of worship and then we split into our groups and we're in there from about six twenty five, six thirty until about seven fifteen, seven twenty five. seven twenty-five actually. And then we all come back together and close in worship too. and so with that, I I think the dynamic a lot of times is like there are very multiple weeks where and I'm not I'm not the person that gets distracted if they stop me and ask questions. and so I allow full interaction with my lesson w if they can raise their hand and they can ask questions, they can have input, they can do whatever. and I know some people are different in that regard. but that oftentimes only leaves ten, maybe fifteen minutes for small groups. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: and so like I I could see that being a dynamic that could potentially change, and I don't know if that's something that I would want to change because of the input and the feedback that I allow them to have during the lesson two. and then the other dynamic of it is two of my three small groups for my high school group are student led. I actually don't lead a small group. I my my adult volunteer co leads a small group with a student. and she's one of our younger students. She's a freshman this year. And then we have the other two small groups are led by juniors and seniors. and so I after I teach, I kinda clean up and put up the chairs and I just kinda listen into the conversation. and so like yeah, but I I definitely see that as a possibility of just utilizing maybe working on utilizing that time differently. but I And it also has brought up the question or the idea of, de what does quality time look like? because like is quality time five years ago the same time same thing as quality time now? For some students it probably is, but for a lot of the more culturalized traditional, like more culturally traditional students, like texting and social media might be more of a quality time thing. and so th there's these dynamics that you have to go into play. and like I yeah, we we have students run social media, I have students that text me regularly throughout the week. And so utilizing just like how do I how do I take those different ideas, how do I implement those better? and so I I yeah, definitely the the number one on my list of like this needs to be tweaked, this needs to be changed. And just making sure that we ask the right questions on how to proceed with those changes. speaker-1: Yeah, I think that's well thought through. what are so we said three changes, but I don't necessarily expect you to have a full three. are there any other changes that you would like to make? speaker-0: And I I just going off the idea of, I think I think it's I think it's important to notice things that just need to change, like the first one that I said. I think another one that we could easily go into is the idea of and it it is the second one on there, the like maybe it's not necessarily a big change, maybe it's a small change. Maybe it's just something that you've noticed that needs small tweaks. and I would say like another thing that I would want to do is like right now our worship team, even though it is all student led It is very, very scatterbrained. It is very, very unrehearsed and they don't practice on their own. And I would love to fix that. but it's it's showing them and teaching them the importance of practicing on their own. and not just practicing the songs that they like. practicing the songs that they're actually playing that week is super, super important too. And so like I I think that would be something that that maybe is just I need to work on strengthening. the understanding of what it means to lead worship with my worship team and me being the worship pastor for my church, I I do feel like that's probably something that I'm failing at right now and I'm not putting as much time to it because I'm like, hey, I don't have to be on stage anymore. like they're doing it. And so like I maybe I've dropped my responsibilities in that a little bit and I need to kind of pick up and help in that avenue and aspect a little bit more. Do you have a speaker-1: particular student who is mostly like the leader of the student worship team because that that would be a great opportunity for you to sit down with that student over coffee or something and say hey here's a couple of things that I'm noticing and I'm not necessarily trying to step in and tell you how to do it but I also want to make sure that we're shepherding that time well. And so sure here's here's a couple of things. I'd love to get your thoughts and stuff like that. How can how can What do you think? And you can even pose it as a question. how do you think your practices could be a little bit more tight? when you pick songs, because I know this is something we've talked about a little bit, is like when you pick songs, do you think about the series we're in? Do you think about how that might tie biblically? Or are you just picking your favorite worship song? Is it a song that and then that's where you can even go a little bit more into like the the depth of it? Like Hey, this song sounds really, really cool. It's popular. It's number one on the radio. But do you how how do you think it holds up theologically? Does it, does it does it fit where we are as a youth ministry? Does it fit the the core like vision? do you feel like when we when we worship through this song, do you feel like it it's it is leading people to the throne of Jesus? and and those honest conversations are things that students I don't think necessarily think about. They just hear a song that they think is cool and they're like, Hey, I like it. Maybe other people like it. And so when they start to hear that intentionality and then they go, I actually need to be listen there there's a little bit more to this than just, ooh, I like that one. Let's play it. You know what I mean? speaker-0: Well and and the the worship leading I d I like mindset is like we and we've had this forever, partially just to help out the the students that are on the worship team. We pick fifteen songs at the beginning of the well actually it's twenty songs now. We pick twenty songs at the beginning of the semester or really the beginning of the school year, and those twenty songs are played all school year long. and so it's in it's in four song sets and we do five sets, so they have a little bit of spacing in between. But that way the students only have to learn 20 songs. and that just has helped in the past with the mindset of, you know, like making sure that we're actually polished and prepared to do what we need to do. and so it does help with the idea of like worship gets more and more and more polished as the year progresses. We're still fairly early in the sem in the school year. and so but it it is the dynamic of like I've had I've had other leaders in the past that would have been students that have noticed and picked up on the other things. a little bit more and now it's just like we need to make sure that they have we need to make sure that those changes are still or those those points and those considerations are still taking place. Yeah. So yeah. and then I mean if I if I had to do a third, because we did say three changes. The last one that I've been kind of toying with and this kind of goes back to the curriculum, like redoing the curriculum for the sixth grade. is the mindset of I really would like to go back to more of a not necessarily a store-bought curriculum, but I want to write our own curriculum for the things that we repeat regularly. that way we have our hands fully invested in what we're teaching. and and that's that's across the board from my my curriculum at the high school, from my associate youth pastors' curriculum in seventh and eighth grade, and our sixth grade c curriculum that's led by volunteers. I I do think that that's a that's probably the third change that I'm considering. and it's just more for cohesiveness and unity. because like not not knowing exactly what or how it's being taught sometimes can help. And that was one of the big things with sixth graders is like I I have two college kids right now, which I trust, and it's not necessarily an issue with that. but I I have two college kids that are teaching the sixth grade and like I said the curriculum was even while the content was great, the the the presentation of the curriculum was really, really rough. and so I was leaving a lot to chance with that. And it's not necessarily that I want to control it. I just want to make sure that we're all on the same page and understanding of how we want this presented as a church or as a youth group. so I think that would be my third is just the mindset of working on those ideas of curriculum. because sixth grade does the same thing every year, seventh and eighth grade alternates. so it's a year in the old testament and a year in the new testament. And I feel like all three of those could easily be curriculum that we write and keep. and then just kind of utilize to where it's the it's the same curriculum that we use every time, but it's more more thought provoking and more engaging and more invested into what our youth group is actually teaching. instead of just going to find videos or find teaching that is built and created elsewhere that we adapt. speaker-1: Yeah. 'Cause I would say stuff like that. the way I look at it is our curriculum should always be living documents in the sense of like I think of the Bible as our is our main guide. It's a living and breathing thing. Like and it it it moves with the culture. as we change and we we look at the Bible with with fresh eyes in different contexts, we see a totally different message. And I think our curriculums can do the same. and again, asking your students. So I kinda wanna pivot just a little bit to this to this question. and and this isn't necessarily a question for you to answer because I feel like you did a good job of explaining kind of the who like who, what, when, where, why and how of of all your three things. but maybe maybe a consideration for us as we we think, 'cause we hope as you're listening, you're thinking about, you know, your three things that you would change and why. 'Cause just making changes just a change. I mean, it it it we're not necessarily saying, you know, only if it's on fire kind of thing, or even like if it's not broken, don't fix it kind of thing. But I do think that there are probably some things that do need and are necessary. So I guess the question is to consider is this something that your students actually need, or is this something that you personally wish the ministry looked like? I think that's a really important distinction. We can get really caught up in what we want the ministry to look like. Yeah. And forget that this isn't about us, it's about them. This is speaker-0: Yeah. Well and that I mean, I think that also leads to the idea of like a discussion between the difference of like our ministry preference and the needs of the students that we're actually discipling. Yes, I would love to have my hands in everything and I would love to have it go exactly the way that I wanted every single Wednesday night. I don't want that at the end of also though, because I want students to have a say and I want leaders to be involved. And I quite honestly, I don't want to do it by myself. That sounds miserable. And so with that, once you get the volunteer base and once you have if you ever have the opportunity to have support staff, it it's phenomenal because it it really allows you to lessen the I do everything and really, really focus in on what you're supposed to do. and I think that's a huge dynamic, but it also like that disc that discussion about the difference between our ministry preference and the usefulness to the students of like to the needs of the students that we're discipling is huge. because like are we actually changing this because it needs to happen or are we changing this because I want this to happen? I I think that yeah definitely a big question. All right David, the roles are reversing. Okay. So what would you change first in your speaker-1: Yeah, so I am in a very different place than Brent is as far as ministry establishment. I am still in year two of of ministry. I'll be I'll hit year three on July or at the end of July. So speaker-0: Year two at your current church. I do I do fe I do feel like you should say that you you're not in your second year of youth ministry. I'm in my twenties. You're second year of youth ministry at this church. speaker-1: But yes, at this church, that's a very important distinction. someone's like, Wow, he knows a lot for two years. speaker-0: Or the Or they're like, Why the crap have I listened into this guy? I've been in long than here. speaker-1: I'm kidding. just remember First Timothy four twelve. Now moving on. But all that to say, I there's a lot of things culturally that I wanted to change, but I I take the approach and and I and I'll be honest, I know at at some points I can be a little bit too slow. So like looking at my own thing, but I I see youth pastors go into a new church and they immediately change the entire identity, the core, everything, the paint, the name, the logo, everything like in month one. I I tend to like to pump the brakes a little bit and like get to know the heartbeat of the students and what they do and why they do it, because I've I've seen people come in and go, Wow, that wall looks terrible. And your students are like, but I painted it and was really excited about it, and I love it. And you just crapped on something that they care about. Don't do that. Yeah. And so I walked in and now there was so instead of going, I changed that, that, that, that, and that, which I did think, I I sat in with a with a no lie, with a notepad and a pen and said, What do you love about your church? What do you love about your youth ministry? What are some things that are absolutely like deal breakers for you? Like if I were to if I were to make this change, you'd be like, Deuces, I'm out. what are some things that you wished we could do? What are some things you wish we would talk about? What are some things you wish we could learn? And I had a I had like three pages of notes and I was like, Great, this is the stuff that needs to stay, and here's the things that can change. And it gave me a better perspective of what the students want, where they number one, where they are, number two, what they want. And number three, where where they need to go. And so all of that to say, I'm still very much in the foundational aspect. I'm still trying to move our students from constantly caring about games over discipleship. we get some good conversation, but I would say if we've got an hour, I'm getting 10 minutes of deep That's gotta change. So I'm in a I'm in a hard part. And what I started realizing is and this this is absolutely an indictment on me. over the last month, we have not done worship one single Wednesday night. And the reason for it is because I'm like, by the time we finish worship, I got like no time to talk. And I'm like, so I'm trying to prioritize discipleship. But the problem is, is that we have a very high energy group, and I think that's great. I love it. And I tell them all the time, I'm like, hey. When I when I ask you to dial in, I'm not trying to I'm not trying to put the fire out. What I'm trying to do is redirect the flame, if that makes sense. So if if there's passion and excitement, I want you to pour the same passion and excitement that you have for games and fellowship and fun to diving deep into scripture and what that means for us. And so we get probably a total of 10 minutes of like good discussion and a whole lot of rabbit trails and distractions. And Let's be honest, I'm all for rabbit trails and distractions. I can ride that train all day, but I feel like the train isn't really moving. I feel like the train is just at a standstill and we're all just kinda like, Come on, train, go. if we're stuck in the that's how it feels. It feels like the train is just not moving. And so I'm like, How can I how can I dive us deeper and I've gotta I've gotta slowly move us? And and that's the thing I also have to remind myself. I've been doing ministry a long time. But I haven't been doing ministry here a long time. And I think that's a really important distinction for us. I went from a ministry that I was there for over 10 years to a ministry that has never had a min a youth pastor that long ever. And so they've had so many different thoughts. They've had some really, really strong youth pastors, they've had some not so strong youth pastors, and they've had some that did some really bad things. And so I have to remember all of that. And I gotta remember, and we say this all the time, it takes three years to establish a ministry. I'm not there yet. So a lot of my stuff is very foundational changes. speaker-0: I was gonna say r right now I'm very lost on what your actual teams was. speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was I was all all of that to say. speaker-0: Okay. I was like I'm I don't know where the change was. speaker-1: Change is going deeper in discipleship, moving from fun and games to deeper discipleship. and so that's that is the absolute biggest change I want to make. and and I I've gotta remember that that that comes with time and I've gotta be patient. and I've gotta r again remember that I haven't been here that long. It feels like I've been here a long time. I haven't. Yeah, and I gotta remember that. I think it's easy for us to bleed. other ministries, past churches into our current dynamic. Yeah. But that's just not true. That doesn't the lessons carry, but I can't just take that establishment and bring it with me. I'm starting I I started over, you know? And so sometimes that can be a little bit bit hard and and frustrating. And so I I would say if you're in that situation, remember to have lots of patience and grace. They are not going to get there overnight. It takes time. You're building the relationships. And as you build the relationships, you can help them understand why it's important. We're in that position, and I think the students are starting to catch on. One thing that's helping us to that change is we're doing a pretty big mission trip in the summer. this would be the for some of our students, it's the first mission trip they've ever been on. Actually, I'd say for almost all of them, it's the first mission trip they've ever been on. And so we're with that dynamic of mission trips, this is gonna give me a real cool opportunity to show them the importance of the ministry that we're doing. and and the seriousness around it too. Like not that it all has to be I don't wanna I don't wanna shift us from all fun and games to super serious drab or not having any fun at all. I wanna keep us in the middle. And so That that's a dynamic. And so that's one of the ways that I'm helping shift that culture is to say, Hey, this this mission trip, we have to remember it's not just a fun trip. This isn't even about us. This is about serving the people that we're serving. and in and building projects and like we're not on our phones, we're not, you know, these different things. Like and so I think it's gonna also once the mission trip happens, we can take that back to our youth ministry and say, you see how s how like How serious we had to be at certain times. Did you see how locked in we have to be at certain times and what we were trying to convey through the mission trip and in the way that we were serving? Now let's pivot that into our youth ministry. Let's pivot that into music ministry and the different things that we're doing. So I think it gives us a cool, a cool launching point where I think that that year three really is gonna because that's I I hit year three like two weeks after our mission trip. So it's like it's the sweet spot of, okay, this is where things are gonna get start really happening. We we're still building that foundation and it's been better. It really has. But I would I would I guess the one B under that or maybe it's it's two really is on the worship side, is just because we don't have a lot of time to discuss doesn't mean that I need to take out other important things. I think sometimes I felt such an influence on discipleship and scripture and get diving into God's word that sometimes I'm I'm like, well if we only have this much time, then I have to take other things out. And I'm like, yeah, but worship is really important too. speaker-0: Yeah. No, worship in all reality if if you're choosing songs correctly, worship is theology. That's true. That's true. So yeah, no, I I definitely think yeah, so I mean I I would consider that a one B or two. Yeah. I mean, but so obviously you're you're working on s doing the discipleship or like making it deeper. I think that's a good good quality. I think the like simplify or maybe strengthen the presence of worship within your group. on the intentionality behind worship and the time for worship, which would definitely be a second one. And so what is another change that you've been considering? And maybe this is a change that you're like, hey, like I just really this just needs to go or I maybe this is a personal change for you. Or what is what is the third speaker-1: It is a physical thing. so we've been talking about theological and cultural and growing. I would love love, love, love to build an identity for our youth ministry. physically, our youth space is dated, very, very dated. some of the painting on the walls were there when Brent was a youth was a student here at this church, and it's never been allowed to be touched. and there is a willingness. problem for me is when I got here we were smack we were literally starting a building campaign. A very, very expensive building campaign. And I can't walk in and say, hey, I want to spend some money changing her youth room when we million dollars. Yeah, you're you're currently in that. And so now I'm like I've literally just been doing this. Hmm 'cause I haven't been able to change a single thing. And Like I said, I I'm one who pumps the brakes on that anyway, but we wanna make some changes and we've gotta kind of recover from big building project before I can get to that. And so I'm I'm in the here's the thing. If I can give you any advice in this situation is don't sit there and go, I wanna make all these changes and then all of a sudden the window opens and you're like, well I don't I don't know what I wanna do. This is the time where you can actually plan and ask questions and design it. So this is what I want to do with the space. Start getting student buy-in. And be very clear from the start. Like, hey, this is not something that's going to happen tomorrow. This is something that we we can't do for a little bit, but right now we can just dream. Let's throw some things at the wall. What do we want to do? What do we want this to look like? What are some things 'cause sometimes in doing so, there are some of those things where you're gonna go, Actually that's very doable for today. Like that's only gonna cost like a hundred dollars or something. Yeah, we can absolutely make that change today. speaker-0: Or just look at what the what the alternative options for resources can be. you don't need the you don't need the most expensive LED lights. There's there's LED lights that you can buy just about everywhere. Just make the use of what you got. and yeah, no, I I think that's a huge dynamic and not to steal your point. The other thing is is if you feel like you're not creative, because I I think that's the thing that I run into the most with this conversation, is like, well I'm just not a dreamer like that. I can't I can't just like visualize the space. Chat GPT will literally do whatever you ask it to do. you can take a picture of your youth room and you can say, Hey, I want h dark laminate floor that looks like wood on the floor. I want the walls to be painted this color. And like you can literally take a picture and Chat GPT will change the actual look of your room in a picture so you can visualize whatever changes you want to do. a lot of people are using that for house remodeling now. we used it for our house. And you can literally just take a picture of your youth room and say, Hey, I want this floor, I want all of the couches removed, I want a stage on this side of the room, or whatever, and like you can take a picture and like it'll literally generate whatever you ask it to do. So speaker-1: Mm-hmm. And just to give a little bit of an alternative there. just because here here's the thing. You can take a picture of it and you go, that's really, really cool, and now I know what I want to do creatively, and then you go and find out that that's really expensive. speaker-0: and I think work within your speaker-1: so another thing you can do is literally ask around. I almost guarantee you have somebody in your church That's a really good with interior design and decorating and stuff, and say, Hey, what would you do? Can you give us some ideas too? and and bring some students along and bring some some youth volunteer leaders and have a meeting together and and go through the space and let them hear what your students want, what your volunteers want, what your vision is and stuff like that. Yes. because I've I've seen that work really, really well. And again, you're giving church members an opportunity to come into your space. That's a really cool win. speaker-0: Yeah, I I think we're I think we're arguing the same thing. I I I think yeah. Yep, definitely do what you're doing. What I'm saying, like Chat GPT can be a resource to actually visualize what you're coming up with with your church and your youth group and everything else before you do it. Yeah. So like we're on the same page. Like I that's not a yeah. So definitely, definitely agree with that. Yeah. You're it's a it's a great opportunity for your youth group to help out. and then also like you literally have free labor. speaker-1: That's fair. speaker-0: Buy a pizza and tell youth to come paint walls. Now, do you might have to repaint But as long as you do the prep work of actually taping off what needs to be taped off and putting tart down, it doesn't matter if they get messy. And so like you can utilize free labor for painting and for moving stuff and for whatever. Like all of that stuff is super, super easy. one we got new couches for the youth room when I got here and we got four of them. And I was like, hey, great, like I need four youth to come help me get these couches. And they help me move them in. I had youth help me paint rooms. I had youth help me build walls. like all kinds of stuff. Just because it's like, you know, I need extra hands, and I can pay a contractor to do it, or I can teach youth kids how to do it. and it's it's super, super easy and it's life skills. Like everybody's going to paint at some point in their life. so learning how to paint walls correctly, learning how to like how to hang stuff on walls without destroying the walls, like all kinds of stuff. It's it's Common sense for us, but kids have to learn it at some point. speaker-1: Again, discipleship happens in so many different ways. speaker-0: Mm. Yeah. yeah, so I think the idea is like there and hopefully the the conversation that we've had is kind of geared towards what we were discussing. It's just the idea of like hopefully you have someone in your ministry that you can bounce these ideas off of. and I we've already hit f almo fifty six minutes and so we're gonna fly through the rest of this episode. But I do think it's super, super important to have this conversation at least once a year. Just on the idea of having someone that can sit down with you and be like, Hey, what's the change that you need to make right now? And personal reflection is totally fine too, but I think having the other person to bounce ideas off of is super speaker-1: Say now is absolutely the time to have that conversation because you're about to have a budget meeting next month, more than likely. Yeah. So this is a good opportunity to take stock, decide what you need to do. And if you need to if your budget needs to reflect some of those changes, now is a great opportunity to have that conversation with your volunteers and student ministries and then be able to take that into your staff and and your finance whatever your organization structure is. speaker-0: Sure. Yeah, and so th the last things that I kinda wanted to touch on for this episode is the idea that after spending time with all these changes and the conversations being back to something bringing conversation back to something foundational, not everything about student ministry should change. Methods, programs, schedules, communication can change, but the purpose of ministry has to stay rooted in biblical discipleship. you I mean first Corinthians three, six and seven, Paul describes planning and watering. And recognizing that God is the one who gives the growth, not us, not anybody else. And this provides a useful distinction. we're responsible for faithfully cultivating the ministry that's entrusted to us, but we don't control spiritual formation. Okay? Jesus is behind that. And so, what are the non-negotiables in your student ministry? What are the things that can't change? How would do you distinguish biblical conviction? From personal ministry preference? Have you ever defended a program that you were attached to rather because rather than because it was accomplishing a person a purpose? have you kept something just because you like it, basically, instead of evaluating the actual purpose of the event? How do you evaluate your ministry without being consumed by numbers or results? and the th the idea needs to be though that like we should hold tightly to our biblical convictions and and loosely enough to our methods so that we can improve how we have those biblical convictions. how we present and how we work through those biblical convictions. The convictions don't change, but the way that we present, communicate, shape, like show them all those things, like those are all changeable. And then so the three questions that we have for you as the listener, the ministry audience the ministry audit would be the idea of what am I doing simply because I've always done it? think about events, weekly routines, programs, meetings, expectations, all of that stuff. What am I simply doing because I've always done it? Is there any actual weight to what I'm doing? number two, what is genuinely helping students grow as disciples? Think beyond attendance, consider relationships, scripture engagement, prayer, service, spiritual maturity, worship, all of those things are huge. Like So what genuinely is helping students grow as disciples? And then number three, what is one change that I can realistically make in the next 30 days? I think a lot of times we have ideas for change, but we never actually measure it how effective like we never actually give us a timetable to do it. And so they sit on the couch and we don't really ever get to them. and so I think like the mindset of realistically making a change within the next 30 days and giving you a time frame to achieve it. is something really really important but this needs to be something actionable rather than attempting to overhaul the entire ministry in 30 days. You can't do that. It needs to be something actionable that you can actually achieve. So and so with this like I I think the idea is like you you need to bring these questions to your volunteer teams. You need to bring these questions to your ministry leadership. and emphasize that meaningful change doesn't always require a massive overhaul. sometimes it's one conversation, it's one program adjustment, it's one volunteer training, it's one thing removed from the calendar. it's one intentional improvement that helps students effectively follow Jesus better. And so, like, I I think that that's huge, but like these are the questions that you need to be thinking about, and these are the things that you need to be asking your volunteer teams and your ministry leaderships to help you navigate through. these ideas. And then so one of the things that I hope comes across in this conversation is neither of us have student ministry completely figured out. Obviously we both have changes that we need to make. And I don't think that's a bad thing. We've been doing this for years and there are still things that we want to change. There are still things we're learning. There are still decisions we approach differently. That's part of leadership. Leadership is being willing to change and modify things. and so the danger isn't recognizing that something needs improvement. The danger is becoming so comfortable with the way things are that we stop asking whether we could be serving our students better. So whether you've been in ministry for two years like David or 20, I would challenge you to ask yourself the same question we asked today. What would I change about my ministry right now? And then don't stop at identifying it. Take a step, have a conversation, evaluate the program, ask your volunteers, listen to your students, make the adjustment. Because ultimately this isn't about building the ministry that we've always imagined. It's about faithfully discipling the students that God has actually entrusted us to. and faithfulness doesn't mean that everything we're like we do everything the same way forever. It means that we're willing to change how we minister without changing who we're pointing students to. So with that being said, it is an hour and two minutes for this episode, which is longer than we normally do, but it had a lot of stuff. And honestly, I think it was a lot of fun. it was kind of a tangent from what we normally do, but I think it's still a great conversation. And as David said, you have a budget meeting probably coming in the next month, which means you need to get on this and start thinking through the ideas and the changes that you might need to talk to your church about too. and so with that being said. thank you for listening. Thank you for being a part of this episode. Thank you for being a part of the conversation. Please share this with your youth pastor friends. We are literally growing by word of mouth only. We do no advertisements. And we've said that a hundred times on this episode on this podcast. So please share it with your youth pastor friends. Maybe the person that you want to have these conversations with, share this episode with so they can listen to it first. And then you have those conversations. But then secondly, we would love to if you don't have anybody to talk to, we would love to be that person. And so like I said, me and David don't have all the answers, but we've both been in ministry for a good while now. and we know a lot of other people that have been in ministry for a long time. and we definitely have the opportunity to maybe not have all the answers, but we might know the person that can help you the most with your situation. And so if you don't have the person to talk to, you can reach out to us at Talk Student Men on Facebook or Instagram. And then you can also email us podcast at student ministry conversations.org. and we'd love to we'd love to listen to you. We'd love to hear about your ministries and what you're dealing with. and maybe, who knows, that maybe that kind of redirects and changes our current flow of how we do episodes. and maybe we do a series that directly goes into something that you're dealing with right now. So either way. We appreciate you listening. Thank you for being a part. Thank you for listening to this super long episode. Hopefully it was encouraging and it's inspiration for you to keep on doing what you need to do. And I don't remember whose turn it is to pray, David, so it's mine. speaker-1: It's not but it's super loud in in the office. So you press speaker-0: Okay. Totally fine. So, God, thank you for the privilege of serving students and helping them grow in their relationship with you. give us humility to recognize where we need to grow as leaders. Give us wisdom to distinguish between things that need to change and things that need to remain. Help us listen to the students and the families and the volunteers you've entrusted us with, and keep us from becoming so attached to our programs and preferences that we lose sight of the purpose behind them. Give us courage to make necessary changes, patience to lead those changes well, and faithfulness to continue pointing students towards Jesus. We ask for patience and peace and courage and wisdom and discernment for all the youth pastors listening. God, we just pray that you give them strength and encouragement to keep on keeping on in doing what they're doing with the ministries that you're entrusted with. We thank you and we love you. Amen.