Latest / The Art of Costume Podcast / The Iron Claw with Costume Designer, Jennifer Starzyk

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The Iron Claw with Costume Designer, Jennifer Starzyk · The Art of Costume Podcast

0:11
So actually he's wearing a pregnancy belly from Amazon,
0:16
like, but it's like built into a suit.
0:18
And I love when you go into his room, when we talk about
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character changes coming up and he would just be in there with
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just the pregnancy belly, but like shirtless but like, you
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know, like in his pants, like really or something.
0:30
And I'm like I hold. Hello and welcome to the Art of
0:44
Costume Podcast. I am your host, Spencer
0:47
Williams, and thank you so much for joining me for another bonus
0:51
episode. Happy New Year, costume nerds.
0:54
It's so good to talk to you all. It's been a minute here since
0:58
we've actually recorded an episode.
1:01
I hope you all enjoyed your holidays, your New Year's, but
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it's good to talk to you all. Happy 2024.
1:10
Before we get into today's bonus episode, I am happy to say that
1:14
soon the Art of Costume podcast will be back.
1:17
I hope you'll join us next week on January 16th as we kick off
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season four with our Barbenheimer week.
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So we will be doing Barbie on January 16th and Oppenheimer on
1:30
January 18th. And so excited to get back in
1:33
the studio with Elizabeth and Daniel of course and get into
1:36
all the costume magic and want bare way to start then with the
1:41
two movies that basically ran 2023 which is Barbie and
1:45
Oppenheimer. But with all that said I'm so
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excited to talk about today's film that we're going to get
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into. And this film I actually, I
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mainly I don't think I was very excited for at first because it
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really revolved. I thought it revolved around
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something that I'm just honestly not interested in, which is, of
2:05
course, wrestling. You either love it or you don't.
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And honestly, I kind of appreciate it.
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I mean, I'll sit down and watch anything that involves people
2:14
throwing each other around a ring, right?
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So when the Ironclaw was coming to theaters, I really didn't
2:20
know what to expect. And I went and saw it and
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honestly, it was such a memorable experience.
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It's very moving, inspiring all all the things I left, very
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emotional. And it.
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I just love The Iron Claw. It's easily one of my favorite
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movies of 2023, if not top three.
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It's just so, so good. I love this movie and I love the
2:46
costumes. I'm so excited to get into it.
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So of course I'll start us off with a little summary.
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The Iron Claw is the true story of the inseparable Von Ehrreck
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brothers who make history in the intensely competitive world of
3:01
professional wrestling in the early 1980s.
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Through tragedy and triumph, under the shadow of their
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domineering father and coach, the brothers seek larger than
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life immortality on a biggest stage in sports.
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And that is the Ironclaw. Now let's dive behind the
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costumes. The Ironclaw was directed by
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Shawn Durkin and AT costumes were designed by 1 Jennifer
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Starzik. You know Jen from She has quite
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the resume here. First, she has a lot of costumer
3:33
and assistant costume designer roles.
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For example, she was a key costumer on Little Miss
3:38
Sunshine. She was the assistant costume
3:40
designer on 17 Again, which also starred Zac Efron, She was a
3:45
costumer on Star Trek Into Darkness, and she was the
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assistant costume designer on Ghostbusters in 2016.
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But most notably, he would know Jen for her role as costume
3:57
designer on one of the greatest shows ever be on Netflix, which
4:01
was Mindhunter. Of course, if you've never seen
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Mindhunter after this podcast, you need to head over to Netflix
4:08
and get into the show is so good I hope it's still on Netflix.
4:11
It's been a minute since I've seen it in my my list.
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Now I think of it, but if it's on there, you'll love it.
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The show is so good, and Jen also designed the costumes for
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Bill and Ted. Face of Music and Reminiscence.
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And I'm so excited for you all to meet Jen in this bonus
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episode. She's absolutely lovely.
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I got to know her late last year and she's become a quick friend.
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The Iron Claw. Absolutely brilliant.
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I love their costumes and I'm so excited that Jen was able to
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take the time to talk with me about her costumes.
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I had so many questions. I had to get into the Ric Flair
4:48
costumes. I mean, once you see those, you
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just, you knew immediately. I was gonna ask about those.
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I just want to know more about her collaborations with each of
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the stars who played the Von Ehrich brothers.
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I mean, Zac Efron is so good in this movie.
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I grew up on High School Musical, so I feel a little bit
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like a little protective. You know, I've been watching him
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since I I was young. He was young.
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So seeing this movie, I just felt proud.
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And I know if you saw this movie as well, you know exactly what
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I'm saying. So after this break, we will be
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joined by costume Designer Jen Tarsik.
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I am so excited to welcome my friend, costume designer
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Jennifer Starzik. Hey Jen, how's it going?
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Oh, it's. Great.
5:59
Thank you so much for having me, Spencer.
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I'm so excited to talk to you. I just casually ran into you the
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other night and I was like, I think I'm about to interview you
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and I saw the film and I've just been dying for this moment
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because it's The Iron Claw is such a great film, Jen, so I'm
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really excited. Oh my God, I'm glad you're
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excited. I'm so glad that we met outside
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of the Zoom screen, first, happened to be able to chat and
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just have a good time, and now here we are.
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I'm so glad you like the movie. That's like, really important.
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Right. Well, it was a lot of fun.
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Let's get into it. I have to admit, Jen, I had zero
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insight on the story before I saw The Iron Claw.
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I've just never been a part of the wrestling world.
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And Emily, I was even hesitant about this film because I
6:41
thought maybe it's just not for me.
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After finishing the film, I walked away with a deeply
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emotional story that really spoke to me on many levels, I
6:50
would say. So first, what was your
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experience with wrestling and how did you connect to this
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story when you first signed on? I great question, a little bit
7:00
similar. I knew and I did not know
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anything about wrestling. I definitely had some
7:06
preconceived notions of wrestling and my first, my first
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thought was I need to read this script and see what is going on
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inside the script that Shun Durkin has written.
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And as soon as I finished I was like, what?
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What did I just read? This is this is like so
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incredible, so fast and so different and interesting and
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and yes, it's a biopic but it's about, I mean this whole entire
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family, right? So I my first foray was
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definitely like step one, hopped on the Internet, looked up what
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the Von Erichs looks like. Because of course if I didn't
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know anything about wrestling, I did not know anything about the
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Von Erichs. So once I looked up the Von
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Erichs and just saw what amazing a costume opportunity it would
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be also to be a part of a very dynamic film, I was I was like,
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this has to be my project. I need to meet.
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I need this my movie like I would just was like just
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universe is my movie. So I was very thrilled when it
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did was offered to me, so that was great.
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Oh, that's so exciting. Yeah, I can't even imagine
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looking. I mean, that's the fun thing
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about this film is you start to pull back the layers and realize
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there's so much fun and color and but then so much emotion
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too. So it really is a costume
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designer's. I don't dream.
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I would say, 'cause you really get to play with a lot of
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different elements here. Yeah, definitely.
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I mean, and even let's just say our movie starts around in like
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1979. Well, I had also designed Mine
8:29
Hunter, which takes place 1979. So what?
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What's really fun as a costume designer or anybody in film
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industries, you can take those same years and they can look
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completely different because what is your script about and
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who you're focusing on and and what does that whole aesthetic
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look like. So when I went to go start to do
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some further research outside of an Internet site process and I'm
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looking at books and photography and things.
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I'm pulling out some of those same books, those same
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references because they they still related, but I'm looking
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at completely different because these boys were like Texas,
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Americana, little country Little Rock and roll.
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And what, what does that, you know, how does that say?
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And what can we say for that? And and just like you start any
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project, you're thinking who are these let's, you know, just
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character based, Like who are these characters?
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Where do they live? How much money do they have to
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shop? Where would they shop?
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Do they shop? You know, so for me, it was sort
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of looking at all of those things.
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And even though they performed in Dallas, TX, they lived in
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Denton, TX and and they were very young.
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Like we see the arc of them. And not all of them
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unfortunately live to their fulfillment of their lives.
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So you really, you know, probably when they're wrestling,
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they're still, they're still in the heart of it, they're not
9:39
making a lot of money. It's very basic clothing.
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And how can we represent that to make sure each of our cast has
9:45
their own style? And perhaps here this is a
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little hodgepodge. But like David for instance, in
9:53
real life has this superior football mesh jersey and he wore
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it with like a like a Roach clip feather, which we had done like
9:59
a separate photo shoot, which I don't know if that photo's out
10:02
there with like, but he couldn't do this football.
10:05
They played football in this scene, like at home with their
10:06
family. And it just shows how
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competitive the brothers are and how how far the dad pushes,
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which should be like a casual fun game on Thanksgiving that
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gets a little rough between them because they're so competitive
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and still have right and. It's hardcore all the time.
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Hardcore all the time, exactly. And like Zach having really worn
10:26
in clothing, I just, I'm always looking for like give me the
10:29
jeans that look like they should be in a double RL ad, you know,
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like something of that sort. And if it's not that, let's get
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an example and have our agent Dyer make that and for Mikey
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here his his whole character is sort of like when you looked at
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the pictures of brothers in real life.
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It would be like 3 hulky guys in trunks like with their dad with
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like his legs spread and his like chest open and and then it
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would be like Mike like in like Apollo and quarter of like
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completely honestly doesn't fit in probably doesn't want to be a
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wrestler. His back story with Sean is in
11:01
it's you know could be true to life as he was definitely a
11:03
musician and we he he titled him like he was into prog rock rock
11:07
which was like Rush and Tom. How do you get these other bands
11:10
into that that representer film but progressive rock at that
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time. So I tried to make sure I
11:15
inserted a lot of little band T-shirts like this is a Linda
11:19
Ronstadt T-shirt from that time and and some others because
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that's what the real Mike wore as well and Carrie just had come
11:26
home from the Olympics, not happening.
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So he came home in like his Olympic sweatshirt and this
11:32
would be maybe what was under it and it's actually very vibrant
11:35
turquoise tank top, which you know, with our tones and you
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know the timing of our movie, it did turn out to look a little
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more muted in here, but I liked that.
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It's sort of, it's like Carrie and Kevin sort of mirroring each
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other because a lot of that in the film is the brothers
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competing once against each other and this sort of work from
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that aspect and and had it actually look maybe a little bit
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brighter than intended, that would definitely be in Carrie's
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color palette because he was definitely the the 80's rock
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star and a lot of more colorful Slayer in his character.
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I love that you did have a little bit of a flair.
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So with all that being said, and we kind of touched on this a
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little bit, but the Iron Claw takes place in the 1980s, a time
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not too far gone. And I think before we get into
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the wrestling of it all, I think it was equally important to you
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to make the world feel real and authentic this 1980s Texas.
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So how did you and your team just approach the general idea
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of recreating 1980s Texas? Yeah, definitely.
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Like for for us, you obviously had the brothers and you had so
12:38
much research you could draw upon that.
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So to kind of flesh them out, like I just said, each of the
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guys had their own personality. But and the whole big scope of
12:46
Texas, what was kind of interesting is I always kind of
12:50
pictured like if like Crystal GAIL and Linda Ronstadt and like
12:53
smoking the bandit were going to the match like what would they
12:56
wear? Because it's sort of still to me
12:58
summed up the perfect silhouette for it.
13:01
And aside from the real photos of the guys and looking up their
13:05
YouTube wrestling images and and their YouTube replessly matches,
13:09
I should say and watching over and over and over again and
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being like those to them. So freaking cool.
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I definitely do like a dive separately into like kind of the
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atmosphere as pop culture of the time and what movies might
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relate to that and how they were addressed aesthetically in those
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movies. So for me, a movie that I
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thought really kind of did relate in a way was Footloose,
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which in all honesty, I had never watched either of them.
13:36
That's anyone. So I was like first time ever
13:39
watching it and I was like, Oh my God, this is by the way, this
13:41
is a great film, like so. This brand new film called
13:46
Footloose. 45 years later, I'm like, listen to this.
13:49
So I absolutely thought it kind of was similar where it's like
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small town Americana, very basic, not a lot access to
13:58
things, but everybody has like a nice sass and a nice little
14:01
character to them. So that that definitely set a
14:04
tone to me. And then there was two docs
14:07
which I myself, I made sure like anybody in my team I was like, I
14:10
don't care if you don't have time to watch it at home, you're
14:12
going to sit here and watch it. At the desk was Dark Side of the
14:15
Ring and Heroes of WCCW Wrestling because that really
14:20
that summed up our movie very in a hole.
14:23
So if you knew nothing about wrestling, you knew nothing
14:25
about the Von Erichs like those two docs totally sets the tone
14:29
of what you're getting into and had a lot drawn upon, maybe even
14:33
for like Sean to recap in his own way, to have you put this
14:36
whole life into about two hours. Right.
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So yeah, so that was, that was important to me.
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And then I just love research. I just love books.
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I just love photography. So I definitely turned to
14:49
Richard Avedon, American West and pulled out some references,
14:53
some of one of which I like, completely recreated for Pam
14:56
when she first meets Kevin. But we just see the close up in
15:01
our film but the full head to toe look is like this exact
15:03
image from it and I just looks so good on her and it was kind
15:06
of like this calico tight with eyelet and just these jeans.
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Oh, she looks so good. And then but also for her, like
15:13
Nicholas Nixon, which is another photographer, there was these,
15:15
he did this beautiful set of the Brown sisters and they were just
15:17
really natural and they just really told the story of the
15:20
time. And it wasn't pop culture
15:21
references. These are like real people.
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And Sean was very drawn to more of the real, the real aspects as
15:27
well. So that was a nice like dialogue
15:30
and dance to try to mix all of these, all of this reference
15:34
points coming to you and like then editing it out and then
15:37
just doing a ton of boards and seeing what plays out and what
15:40
plays where. Wow, a lot of world building
15:43
going on here. I love it.
15:45
So let's finally get into what we want to talk about, which is
15:49
the wrestling of it all. So I mean it's a lot of fun, a
15:52
lot of colors and the Von Erichs were really were professionals
15:56
and knew exactly what they were doing in terms of selling the
15:59
performance. So what did your research
16:02
process look like? I guess you just answered this
16:04
actually. Were you watching a lot of
16:06
wrestling tapes? Like how do you put together
16:08
this very colorful wrestling scene?
16:11
Yes, definitely. Well, Sean had obviously in the
16:15
script to reflect a lot of wrestling scenes, but then we
16:18
needed exact dates. So I knew, you know, you know
16:21
first question, are we replicating as close as
16:25
possible, Do we have a little leeway that kind of like you
16:27
know what kind of basic license can we take.
16:30
And Sean was open actually to to either as long as we made sure
16:34
we hit the beats of each each brother representing their
16:38
personality and and sort of just making sure that basically our
16:44
first step was like let's just take this photo up here with our
16:48
boy silhouette. So Carrie's robe is always this
16:51
like little tiny Shorty robe that like barely covers his
16:55
bottom. Like it's just like this little
16:56
like so. And I remember Jeremy was like,
16:59
and I was like, yeah, we're just going to ham it up to here.
17:00
And he's like here And I'm like, Yep, here, this just like this
17:03
photo, how we're doing it. He's like OK.
17:06
And you liked it? Come on.
17:08
Absolutely. And this is a great example of
17:09
like, when you look online, you might not see a clear image of
17:12
this robe, but the the more you keep culling and culling and
17:15
trying to find a better higher res or somewhere image that
17:18
keeps popping up to you, right as soon as you start looking up
17:20
stuff. I was like, Oh my God, there's
17:22
like a rhinestone bedazzled Texas on the lapel and like the
17:26
things his belt has rhinestones on it.
17:29
And so it was just fun to do, make sure everybody was
17:33
recreated in sort of their silhouette with their
17:35
personality. And this yellow rose of Texas
17:38
Rd. that David wears is like one of my favorites.
17:41
And I basically was like, I know I have to have the yellow rose
17:43
of Texas because David told Persona.
17:45
Basically is the yellow rose of Texas.
17:47
That's what they call him, that's used to throw to him.
17:49
It was very he was Texas, like the Western Texas guy.
17:52
So everything he wore was definitely a little bit over the
17:54
top with Western flair and the Stetson hat then had like a
17:59
higher crown in the 80s. You could even see it like in
18:01
Dallas TV series, it's just a little bit higher.
18:04
It's like a weird, awkward crown.
18:06
And I had called Stetson up to see if perhaps they could
18:11
recreate it for us. And the gentleman that works
18:13
with film was like, I grew up in Texas, I watched the Von Erichs.
18:17
I would love to do it. Like a lot of people, we would
18:19
reach out to, to see if they would collaborate with us.
18:21
Typically that was their response.
18:23
They're fans of the Von Erichs and they would love to
18:25
collaborate, so that was such a nice thing to be a part of.
18:28
That's lovely. And this is you know these are
18:31
the the our sober photos that have gone out once the movie's
18:33
like theatrically released in 22nd.
18:35
There's we have so many even like clearer images to share.
18:38
So like on this robe of David's is it probably was a velvet robe
18:43
to begin with. But when I met with Matthias,
18:45
the the DP, and Sean, and we talked about, I had all of the
18:49
images of our matches and I had a bunch of fabrics already to,
18:54
like, discuss with them. I'm like, what could be too
18:56
bright and what would work? And basically Matthias's first
18:58
reaction was, even if it's velvet, we have to go into a
19:03
hot, like a different kind of, I don't care what it is, he was
19:05
like, saying. But it needs to have a lot of
19:07
Sheen because when we got into the sportatorium, which are all
19:10
these other photos, it's really dark.
19:12
You can see even like, the background just blends into the
19:15
smoke of the atmosphere. And he knew he just wanted that
19:19
shining reflection. So basically what was there's
19:21
probably fabric you could have bought at Joann's ended up
19:25
becoming actually like luxurious over the top fabric that like
19:29
where you would shop for like a high end movie as well.
19:31
And they were all like anything like pan, a velvet silk, velvet,
19:34
Lorax, anything with lyrics or some sort of a sparkle or shine
19:37
or metallic vibe into it just so we could get that illuminosity
19:40
when we go to film. It was.
19:42
So that was actually kind of fun because we would just, we're
19:45
bringing all these beautiful fabrics.
19:46
We'd be making maybe like 1930s gowns out of.
19:48
Right. And now you're turning into ring
19:51
robes for athletes, like. So it was a really cool.
19:54
Also with the elements on it, you've got past the mentor,
19:57
you've got the dazzling. You have these things that were
20:00
very nuanced, like these guys are wearing costumes.
20:02
It's, you know, wrestling is theatrical, you know, So it's
20:07
it's a masculine sport, it's an ancient sport.
20:08
But there's all these nuances to it, which was another reason why
20:10
I was so drawn to the project. And Kevin's.
20:14
Yeah, and Kevin's robe is like a hoodie.
20:16
And to me, he was like the All American jock anyhow, to begin
20:19
with. Like, pretty much.
20:20
Like, that's his vibe. He's, I put him mostly in
20:23
neutrals. He, you know, he is our survivor
20:25
of a story. It's his point of view in a way.
20:28
So I wanted to make sure he was kind of, like, grounded all the
20:30
time. And my biggest thing was, I did
20:34
not know going into it, but I asked Kevin Von Erich at the LA
20:40
premiere who made your robes, because I never knew who made
20:44
them. And to me, I just knew that we
20:46
had to make sure we have an element of a homemade quality,
20:49
but like very polished and, like with loads of personality.
20:52
And I thought it was going to be his mother, like Doris making
20:55
them or something. He said, oh, we had a lot of
20:57
fans, all these girls wanted to make our robes.
20:59
And so that's that was his answer to the question.
21:03
That's the coolest answer ever. Well, with that being said,
21:10
there's a lot of action as you mentioned.
21:12
So, I mean, how are these pieces being kept together, though?
21:15
I'm imagining you must have had tons and tons and tons of copies
21:19
of each of these. Yeah, you would imagine we had,
21:25
we started out at the Ranch and then we went into the wrestling
21:28
scene. So we had a couple weeks or so
21:30
until we got into the wrestling match and that was you know on a
21:34
little bit of a limited prep to make sure you had a little bit
21:37
of time to get into these wrestling scenes.
21:38
So knowing that it was all to be custom made to order that was
21:41
really helpful because I think in the end we ultimately made
21:44
like almost 100 trunks, 21 ring robes, 24 the 42 knee pads and
21:52
26 pairs of boots all custom made.
21:55
So it was this giant feat to see how to, how to make it, how to
21:59
accomplish it and how to execute and make sure we deliver and
22:02
everybody's happy. So a lot of the times what was
22:05
kind of interesting is I would assume the match started at the
22:09
beginning and they were walking in, they were always taking off
22:11
a ring robe and a hat. And so that was another meeting.
22:13
We had to separately with Sean because without storyboards you
22:17
have to pull that information obviously from the director in
22:19
the first AD. So and he was like, no, no, this
22:21
match will start halfway through.
22:23
This match will start here. So it kind of narrowed down how
22:26
many robes I thought originally had to make, but it was still a
22:29
lot to accomplish in that time. So a lot of it was one of
22:33
obviously the trunks we needed at least four because we needed
22:37
two for the cast and two for our stunts and that was more so for
22:41
like sweater or something tore. And you know, you don't want to
22:43
pull up cameras. That's very good actually.
22:44
Yeah. And and now we even had to
22:48
partner with somebody to make because those trunks are a
22:52
little bit different. You think it's kind of a
22:54
straightforward thing. You're like looks like it's
22:55
Speedo wise, it's such a big deal.
22:56
But in order to get the right kind of fabric and make sure
23:00
it's lined and they don't wear dance belts and you know,
23:02
there's like a little bit of a, you know, there's a process to
23:04
making those chunks so that those athletes can wear them and
23:08
not have to feel self conscience.
23:10
And we just had so many to make. It requires like you know, if
23:13
you're going to do it really do it justice, you need to use a
23:15
correct machine. So we were able to my ACD Alien
23:18
Abercrombie was had a great idea and we had bought some samples
23:23
from this wrestling company called High Spots and she was
23:26
like maybe they could sneak us into their schedule and do the
23:29
manufacturing part for us, which they said yes again because of
23:33
the Von Erichs it. Was like, they're like, duh,
23:36
we're waiting for you to call, yeah.
23:38
So they and we gave them their schedule.
23:41
Our schedule, which they did not seem to be too bothered by so
23:45
and but everything we had to was make a pattern.
23:48
Any of the subsequent casts we would, even if they lived in New
23:51
York or someplace else, I would send someone to go meet them and
23:53
we'd make try on a trunk and make a pattern, get the fabrics,
23:56
make an illustration and send that off to high spots.
23:58
So it was it was a collaboration for sure to make sure everything
24:02
worked out fine. The boots, I was so grateful
24:06
that Kevin wrestled barefoot because it was 1 less character
24:09
after that and so I was do we ever?
24:14
Because in the very, very beginning, Kevin does wrestle in
24:17
boots and he starts early off in his career removing the boots.
24:20
And that was, you know, he has to tell his father that he's not
24:23
going to wrestle barefoot, right.
24:24
And so which seems dangerous, but that's that's his process.
24:27
And that was part of his character, right, and his
24:29
persona and very successful for him.
24:31
So everybody else, it was a matter if like Shabo here, who's
24:35
dressed as the chic and I, we made the chic boots, you can see
24:38
it has that like Aladdin. Yeah.
24:41
That's a one off because Chavos doing his own stunts.
24:44
He's a wrestler, but everybody else I had to make sure I made
24:46
two boots. And again, that was a little bit
24:50
of a tricky subject because the usual shoe makers and boot
24:53
makers in Hollywood couldn't take our schedule.
24:56
And so I was, like, looking online on Instagram when I was
25:00
just typing in like David Von Eric Boots or Carrie Von Eric
25:03
Boots just to see if something would pop up.
25:05
And a Carrie Von Eric Boot did pop up.
25:07
And I looked at the guy and I was like, OK, this guy's a boot
25:10
maker. I can't tell if he's in Mexico
25:12
or Texas. I couldn't tell, like, where he
25:14
was located because of his clients.
25:16
And I just sent. And I was like, hi, my name's
25:18
Jen. I'm working on a movie with Von
25:19
Erich's. Would you be interested in
25:21
talking about making boots? I can send you an NDA.
25:23
And he was like, yes, when And like I was like, OK great, we'll
25:26
talk right now. Yeah.
25:28
And luckily Ray from Ace Boots also collaborated us to help
25:32
make all of our like 26 pairs of boots.
25:34
Otherwise it would never have happened.
25:36
And even for him it was really difficult because he was fitting
25:38
into an already busy schedule he had and some of our cast was
25:42
last minute and and of course there's just regular delays in
25:45
general or something would run out or he couldn't find a sole
25:48
or the boot. Like one time the boot glued,
25:50
didn't cure and it was a rainy it was like almost torrential
25:53
rain flooding And so like he had to wait for it to cure and then
25:56
drive the boots personally like almost 23 hours straight to get
25:59
him to us. I mean it was just like, it was
26:01
insane like all the time just to make sure that we could make it
26:05
happen. And I'm so grateful it did.
26:08
That is insane. It sounds like there's a lot of
26:10
collaboration that was happening on this film, Which leads me to
26:14
my next question. I want to talk specifically
26:16
about some of the Von Erichs now and I was so impressed by Zac
26:20
Efron. I thought he did an incredible
26:22
job. So can you talk about your
26:24
collaboration with Zac Efron and the cast and bringing this
26:28
character to life? Absolutely.
26:30
What Zac was completely open came in for his fitting.
26:36
I think he was the second person I fit and but has the most looks
26:39
in the film. I think he has about 60 changes.
26:42
So I had you know I knew it was going to be a quite a few
26:45
fittings to get that to happen so but basically I have usually
26:50
the their costume changes and I have maybe an insert of ideas in
26:54
each of those changes of what could work here And he was just
26:58
super open completely nice like came in very professional such a
27:02
nice years ago many many mirrors ago when my first assistant
27:05
costume designer jobs was 17 again.
27:08
So I was like, you're not going to Remember Me.
27:10
But we did work together at some time.
27:12
Yeah. And he and he was like, I kind
27:14
of remember, I'm like, no, you don't.
27:15
But you know what? That's the kind of person you
27:16
are. That's how nice you are, right.
27:18
Yeah. And and sort of just he came in
27:22
and he was like, I know we're in limited resources and stuff.
27:26
So like, let like just make sure that we are collaborating as
27:30
best as possible because you know, you're going to kill it.
27:33
And so he was just such a nice guy and very amenable.
27:35
So that was super cool and we had a great time.
27:37
And of course, I had to continue to fit him throughout and he
27:39
worked the most throughout and just like just fine.
27:43
Just, you know, hop into my trailer, do this, do that.
27:45
Just did it, did his thing and just a nice polite person and
27:51
the other cast as well. I think Jeremy was the first
27:54
person I saw and definitely had multiple fittings there because
27:58
he was when he came in, he had then just started working out,
28:02
so he was going to change physically through our few.
28:06
Weeks until we. Started filming.
28:07
Right, so. I love his costumes.
28:10
He has such like a bad to the bone energy.
28:13
You kind of want to be him a little bit.
28:15
Absolutely. And and the real Carrie was bad
28:18
to the bone, sexy and had the Rockstar quality.
28:20
And so it's, I mean perfect, perfect casting, perfect hair.
28:24
So and just obviously a big fan of Jeremy already coming into it
28:27
and he just finished the Bear. I just watched the Bear just had
28:30
come out like that week and I was like wow this is an amazing
28:33
show. Well it turns out everybody
28:35
agreed right and and he just had a lot of fun and also again like
28:39
kind of no qualms like really just like that sounds great.
28:42
I love it. He kind of started to he, I had
28:45
some like white cowboy boots for him and things like that and
28:47
lots of tons of choices. And towards the end of the film
28:50
he'd be like, can I wear the white cowboy boots again today?
28:51
And I was like, I understand, listen, cowboy boots are fun to
28:54
wear of course. Like what if not now, when,
28:56
right. So he was a lot of fun to work
28:59
with. All of them were nice I should
29:00
say like that's this top and very professional.
29:03
I think the person that maybe felt a little bit the most out
29:06
of understanding the element, I don't even know, decided to know
29:11
what the right words would be would be Harris being British.
29:15
And like he was like, hi, now I'm in Baton Rouge and we're
29:18
doing Texas in the 80s. Like it was a lot coming on him
29:21
at once. And I was like shorter, tighter,
29:23
shorter, tighter. And he was like longer baggier,
29:25
longer baggier. So it was sort of like.
29:28
That's definitely a culture, yeah.
29:30
Exactly, Yeah. And that was like, so we we
29:34
ended up coming to. I mean, he had great costumes
29:37
and I loved of that. You know, we got the suede
29:39
French jacket in and his football jersey and that guy
29:43
wore a really great combination of snakeskin cowboy boots, all
29:46
these things that are just like, you know, leather, you know to
29:48
that you kind of don't see. He's wearing a leather blazer to
29:50
church. I mean it's just sort of in in
29:52
collar, wing tips and does a lot of fun Western flair.
29:55
It was like, this is the character we have to do it on,
29:58
and Holt was so much fun because I work with him, a mind hunter,
30:03
so. Nice.
30:04
Which, by the way, shout out to Mindhunter.
30:05
What a great show. I've missed that show.
30:07
Oh, thank you so much. It was, it was a lot of people
30:10
say that and I'm so glad that it was much loved and so I was when
30:15
Sean, said Holt Mcconley. I was like and he was like,
30:19
that's right, you're working on Mindhunter.
30:21
I'm like, this is the best. Like I was so excited.
30:24
So I had politely reached out to his agent and I was like do you
30:27
mind if I just text him myself And so and and that was such a
30:30
fun collaboration to do again in a completely different setting
30:35
and for a whole he had you know for Mindhunter he became tench
30:40
which was you know he had gained some weight and just sort of
30:43
like kind of grew into that gorilla ish, silverback gorilla
30:46
type character. Right.
30:47
So so for so after my hunter he'd gone back to his regular
30:52
weight which is actually very fit and thin.
30:54
So when he came in he, you know, he knew he had his at the start
30:58
of our script is him performing in the 19 early 60s inventing
31:03
the Ironclaw. Right.
31:04
So he was like, I'm ready for action.
31:07
Like I'm in my prime physique, so I need a fat pad for like the
31:11
rest of the movie. So like the one day he's been,
31:14
but the whole rest of the movie he's in a fat pad.
31:17
So. He's like, please don't make me
31:19
do this, yes. So it was it was kind of great
31:22
because. So we just incorporated making
31:26
that into his costumes and how that would fit and making sure
31:28
we don't see it. Obviously that's the whole thing
31:30
and we obviously couldn't put it into a making a nice fancy one.
31:34
So it was how can we make, how can we achieve this on a quick
31:38
level that reads well. So actually he's wearing a
31:40
pregnancy belly from Amazon like, but it's like built into a
31:45
suit and it worked great. And he just, I love when you go
31:50
into his room where we talk about character changes coming
31:52
up and he would just be in there with just the pregnancy belly
31:55
but like shirt but like you know like in his pants like reading
31:59
his lines or something and I'm like hi, hold, you know.
32:01
So. So that was a lot of fun and
32:03
obviously we knew for Holt we had to hit this blue boiler suit
32:06
that Fritz wears because it's like so amazing and so from like
32:09
Sears and or something and Hargate's costume made it for us
32:13
sight unseen and it was I mean it was like zip, tweak, shoot.
32:18
It was like so great and and then he had like this mock trill
32:23
neck look that his father wore that he would sometimes wear
32:25
just with like trunks as well walking around the house, which
32:28
we never got to do. But so that was those are two
32:31
very Fritz looks that felt really right.
32:34
And because his character, or in real life was also so obsessed
32:37
with winning and the title belt, I made sure his everyday belt
32:41
was this kind of like over the top huge buckle with like share
32:46
of stars and stuff. Because it just seemed right to
32:48
me, basically. So right.
32:51
Yeah. And here we have a picture of
32:53
Lily. Yeah, I think it's safe to say
32:55
that there was a lot of masculine energy happening with
32:58
these costumes. So when you see Lily as Pam, she
33:02
really brings like a softness and warmth to the film, which is
33:06
really kind of refreshing. So what's your concept behind
33:09
Pam's costumes? Well, you're absolutely right
33:12
about the masculinity. And even, like, just before I
33:14
jump into Lily, like Doris, the mother's character to me was
33:17
like mother on steroids, the kind of motherly duty she had to
33:20
take her of, like, cooking these grand breakfasts and clean.
33:22
Yeah. All these, it was exhausting.
33:24
Exhausting. So I I When you looked up
33:27
pictures of Doris, I mean a majority of them.
33:29
She is in pants, so I made sure she also pretty much always wore
33:33
pants as well. So, but, so when Lily came in
33:37
and we're going to fit Pam, it was so exciting to, like you
33:41
said, there's this warmness, the softness and make sure that we
33:44
express that she's also like the levels of of his life.
33:47
They're still together. That's a very functioning, you
33:50
know, it looks like healthy relationship.
33:51
You know, so the rock in his life because we watched Kevin
33:55
being tortured by so much of these horrible circumstances of
33:59
life and like processing that and thinking he's he's cursed,
34:01
right. And she's like, I'm here for
34:04
you, solid facing the kids, like doing her thing.
34:06
And but she's also a strong woman.
34:08
Like when you beat her first, she's sassy.
34:10
She's asking him out. She's like, here's what I'm
34:13
going to do. I'm going to own like a
34:14
veterinarian clinic. And how do you feel about that?
34:17
Like, you know, it's just she's such a cool character to begin
34:19
with. So to have this beautiful
34:21
British, like Princess come in and like come turn into this,
34:24
like Texas woman was like, so cool.
34:26
And this is the, I think one of the second or third time we see
34:29
her when he finally introduced her to the family.
34:32
So she's coming for Thanksgiving, but, you know,
34:35
it's a casual Thanksgiving and she just looks so Sethi in
34:39
these. I think these jeans are from a
34:41
label called Pizzazz and Hello and just kind of standing out in
34:48
that red T-shirt and it's like simple and sexy and, you know, I
34:52
think guys like this stuff, right.
34:53
So And yeah, so sort of work for.
34:56
And then her character, you know, I just want to make sure
34:59
she always kind of looks soft. Like at Christmas she's got a
35:02
flannel, but it's got nice 1980s ruffles.
35:05
And if it's I typically tried to go to sweaters or like a
35:09
pullover, something that was like soft and cozy and like
35:12
motherly like because that's how I sort of read her character and
35:16
it was very natural to me. Right, Just absolutely lovely.
35:20
I loved all of her scenes. But another character who I
35:23
absolutely was in love with, I have to ask you about Ric Flair.
35:27
Mostly because he's the only wrestler I actually know besides
35:30
like Dwayne, The Rock Johnson. So I was very excited to see
35:34
him. Ric Flair is very over the top,
35:38
extravagant. So you and I were texting after
35:41
the movie, and I could sense that you had a lot of fun with
35:43
this character. Definitely, definitely Ric
35:47
Flair's The Showstopper and and just so much fun.
35:52
And obviously, you know, my first deep dive was into the Von
35:56
Erichs and what's going to play out first schedule wise.
35:59
And then once we started to think about the other characters
36:01
you had like the Free Birds, which also had some jaw-dropping
36:04
looks that you know in real life by the way.
36:07
And some people out there probably know what I'm saying.
36:08
But then Ric Flair, which I didn't, again, didn't know
36:12
anything about, right. So you're like, who's this?
36:14
Then you start to look at him and I'm like, what is going on
36:17
here? Like.
36:18
Yeah, who is this? You have like this Liberace,
36:22
like wrestler with a nickname Nature Boy.
36:26
I mean it was just like too good to be true.
36:30
And I was very lucky that Sean was.
36:33
I was like do you do you have like a robe in mind that you
36:35
want me to be recreating? Because I think in this match
36:39
that they recreate, there is no reference to what Rick's
36:41
wearing. So I I it was like a free for
36:43
all and Sean's like, no, I mean it's Ric Flair.
36:46
Any of any of the robes will be a good choice like so.
36:50
So I was able to really like think about it, which became
36:54
this difficult decision because I wanted to make sure I made the
36:56
right decision. And then it became crystal clear
36:59
once it became the right decision which was after I
37:01
looked at the other ring robes I made and there's a lot of
37:03
primary colors and solids and and sort of some some tones that
37:08
aren't hot pink. I was like, I have to make a
37:11
Flamingo, pepto bismol hot pink robe, whichever one it was.
37:15
By the way, this was the two I narrowed it down to.
37:19
And yeah. And then just after narrowing it
37:21
down to these two, what it was mostly like execution and cost
37:25
like how which one to go with between these two.
37:27
But they both say the same thing which what is going on here and
37:31
it's just like he also patent leather booths which we made
37:34
with like an over the top cursive, you know initials on
37:38
top of it. So I wanted to make sure we had
37:40
the pink, I want to make sure we had feathers and I want to make
37:44
sure we had sequence. So basically our, the one that
37:47
we executed here on the left got all of that.
37:49
And I was able to at that time, I think because we were in
37:52
Louisiana, I went to all the Mardi Gras fabric shops because
37:58
it was just, you know you walk into a cornucopia there of like
38:00
what to pick and I was like picking up the sequence and how
38:03
many sequences choices there is like amazing.
38:05
So we're I overdid it. Brought it all back to my cutter
38:08
fitter brick and talked about how we could do it.
38:11
And it was actually so much sequence and stuff to sew.
38:14
He came up with this brilliant idea.
38:15
It's like glued down, like you know, it's it's glued down for
38:18
good by the way. But it's like because I think he
38:21
would have broke his machine trying to like put it all on.
38:23
And I was you would go back to the office and it would be like
38:27
panels of bright pink and feathers everywhere and sequence
38:30
everywhere and glue and like, you know, it was just like, he
38:33
looks like a mad scientist. And he was like, it's coming
38:35
along great. Like, you know, so it was like.
38:37
The perfect nightmare, Yeah. Exactly.
38:41
But everybody obviously wanted to make this a robe, a rip flair
38:44
robe because he's so over the top and so cool.
38:46
Like so that was great. So fun, just like this.
38:51
A wedding scene between Kevin and Pam.
38:53
It was truly heartwarming and the costumes were just so
38:56
fascinating. They were definitely of like a
38:58
time and place, I would say. So did you and your team
39:01
recreate this wedding? I don't know if there's actual
39:03
photos of the wedding, so how did you approach this?
39:07
Yeah, the wedding, when you see the movie, they come out right,
39:11
you see exiting the church. So this is really the time where
39:14
we flush out maybe our happy light time in our movie, right
39:18
where very things are hopeful and of course there's a twist
39:21
here, but when you go to watch the movie, but it's very happy
39:25
time in the movie. So you definitely want to make
39:27
sure you are sharing their love because this love transpires,
39:31
right. So I had really drew upon Carrie
39:36
Von Erich's wedding photo which is out there and he's it's
39:39
basically these tuxedos. These are vintage tuxedos that
39:42
again, Alien. My ACD knew of a somebody in the
39:47
Midwest that owns tuxedos. I don't know.
39:50
I don't need to. All I know is.
39:52
Everyone has a guy and. I was like, yeah, I like your
39:57
guy and all I need to know is that the guy has enough to
40:00
deliver. So it was picking that and we
40:04
chose this like pale Gray, dove Gray tone because it actually
40:08
was what Kerry ended up wearing. Kevins real life wedding is
40:11
summertime and more like 16 candles looking which, so we
40:14
went this other thing and I had a couple dresses to try on.
40:18
Pam. Different silhouettes.
40:19
Because I was still kind of thinking of trying to replicate
40:21
Pam more so. And once we got into a very
40:25
princessy dress indicative of the 80s and put it on Lily, I
40:30
was like, Oh my God, this is Cinderella.
40:31
What am I talking about? Like, this has to be her.
40:33
So it was. Yeah, I was.
40:35
She just wears it so well. And they have, of course, this
40:37
dance. And I was like, is this going to
40:38
be hard to dance? And then she was like, you
40:40
kidding? I'm going to make this work
40:41
like, this is amazing. So, and we had so much fun, like
40:45
the background and there you kind of see like in that upper
40:47
right next to Dave to the left is like a woman that looks like,
40:49
she's like on the Lawrence Welk show.
40:51
I mean, it's just like we had so much fun dressed in the
40:53
background. I think that day we had two
40:56
completely other scenes going on with background.
40:59
So like, we may have started that day with like a funeral and
41:01
then we went someplace else in the middle of the day And you
41:04
know, it was like the 4:00 call for the wedding.
41:06
So it was just like you were like spinning around and you had
41:08
your racks with all of your looks that, you know, pertain to
41:12
that atmosphere and that town for those scenes.
41:14
And so it'd be like next, you know, roll those racks away,
41:18
pull the next set of racks up and like, keep going and.
41:22
It sounds like you really depended on a a collaborative
41:25
team I assume to pull this all together.
41:27
Absolutely. You definitely need to know you
41:29
have some key players that are like down to get into it and you
41:34
know you need to know you have people you count on so you can
41:36
make sure that you can pull it off and it's like executed
41:39
beautifully so. But when we all arrived to the
41:41
scene and the set and Sean was like Oh my God everything looks
41:46
like he was so complimentary to all of department heads like he
41:48
was like I love what James. I love the the metallic and it
41:51
makes them pop and obviously the hair and makeup on Pam and
41:54
everybody and everybody's polished up.
41:55
You know we've seen them sweaty or bloody or something in
41:57
between all these scenes. So it was delightful.
42:00
And he had the song already begging, the Frankie Avalon
42:04
song. Like, you must have already knew
42:06
he was going to use that. So you were everybody was just
42:09
like, dance. It was like such a fun way to
42:11
end the night. And you were so glad it it's
42:13
turned out well. And watching them dance, I think
42:16
is one of the coolest things. And Speaking of like, Kevin,
42:20
Zack, I just thought, oh, you know, here Zack's going to
42:23
dance. Like, what's going to happen?
42:24
Zack's going to dance. You know, triple threat, High
42:26
School Musical, what's going to happen?
42:27
And I think this to me, like, was a very subtle, like, to me.
42:31
I was so impressed because I think he, my take on it is he
42:35
danced like how Kevin would dance, how an athlete would
42:37
dance. When you see it, it's just sort
42:39
of, you know, like he's not over the top.
42:41
He's not like choreographed with the T you know, He's always like
42:43
kind of looking around to see what his brothers and sisters
42:45
are doing, and I thought that was a really nice touch to him
42:48
on. The car, that's really cool.
42:50
Especially, I mean, like you said, High School Musical.
42:52
You would think he's gonna snap into the flashy dancing that I
42:55
grew up with. So that is really just such
42:58
subtle, brilliant acting. So, so Jen The Iron Claw is in
43:05
theaters December 22nd, and by the time people hear this
43:08
podcast, the movie will already be out.
43:10
So what do you hope audiences will take away from the film,
43:12
the story and the costumes? Oh, that's really a good
43:17
question. I will, I will.
43:20
I hope that they take away. I think what people I've seen
43:23
take away already is, you know, an immediate response to wanting
43:28
to tell a loved one they love them.
43:31
And I think that's like, you know, just so special.
43:33
And I remember when I was at the Dallas premiere with my partner,
43:36
I was like, are you, are you crying?
43:38
And he was like, maybe, you know, I saw that.
43:42
I was so happy. He was actually.
43:45
I was like, Oh my God, thank God.
43:47
It's like a moving, touching movie, a story, which it is.
43:50
So I feel like just people wanting to share love with their
43:55
loved ones and I think it's obviously a very interesting
43:58
story. It's very tragic.
43:59
I think Sean did a beautiful job telling the story of his
44:03
personal fans like he was such a fan, like this is such a
44:06
touching story to him, was very important to him.
44:08
When I heard he grew up watching wrestling.
44:10
I'm like what what? Like I just it's sort of
44:12
interesting and for costumes. I hope that they, I hope that my
44:17
peers and the audience really appreciate the detail and the
44:20
thought and the care and all the time and effort and the made to
44:24
order and everything that went into it.
44:25
Because this is truly one of those films where I think I'm
44:29
like, oh, I'm close to close to getting to exactly what I wanted
44:33
to achieve. So and that's that's putting it.
44:35
I think a lot of my peers would understand what I'm saying when
44:37
I say that. So it was, yeah.
44:39
And maybe there's a director's cut that shows more full lengths
44:42
and backs of robes. I don't.
44:44
Know. Hey, assign me yet The costume
44:49
designer. Jen Starzik, thank you so much
44:51
for joining me. It's been such a joy.
44:53
I love The Iron Claw and I hope everyone runs to the theaters
44:56
and checks it out because it was such a great film.
44:59
So thank you so much for joining.
45:00
Oh, my pleasure. Thank you.
45:02
Thank you so much. It was great.
45:08
The Art of Costume podcast is hosted and produced by Elizabeth
45:12
Joy Glass and Spencer Williams. Our audio engineering and
45:17
editing is done by Dan White. Follow us on TikTok at The Art
45:21
of Costume and Instagram at The Art of Costume Pod.
45:26
If you want to support the show, go to
45:28
theartofcostume.com/podstore. For more podcast updates,
45:34
costume reviews, deep dives and interviews, go to
45:39
theartofcostume.com, A blog dedicated to highlighting the
45:44
best in costume design. You're right.
46:06
Well, it was a lot of fun, so let's get into it.
46:09
And let me share some pictures too.
46:12
A little bit of color? Yeah.
46:14
Are these personal home photos? Yeah, Yep, I I cut them out
46:18
myself from my magazines.