Latest / Miss Understood with Rachel Uchitel / Therapy Is In Session With Dr. Nadine Macaluso

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Therapy Is In Session With Dr. Nadine Macaluso · Miss Understood with Rachel Uchitel

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Like what you hear? Turn into USL All Access Live
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  Speaker 1: every Tuesday at 8 p.m. Eastern on Sirius XMFC Channel
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• 0:32
  Speaker 2: Welcome back to Misunderstood. I'm your host, Rachel Ucatella. I'm
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  Speaker 2: really excited about today's guest, Nadine Macaluso, referred to as Dr.
• 0:42
  Speaker 3: Naye.
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  Speaker 2: She's a psychologist, author, and former model. She's the second
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  Speaker 2: wife of the stockbroker and financial criminal, Jordan Belfort. Referred
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  Speaker 2: to as Duchess of Baybridge by the press, her marriage
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  Speaker 2: was the subject of Belfort's memoir and subsequent hit movie,
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  Speaker 2: The Wolf of Wall Street, which I'm hoping that you saw.
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  Speaker 2: If you didn't, you need to go see it. It's
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  Speaker 2: a great movie. And the basis for Margot Robbie's character, Naomi.
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  Speaker 2: She is now a therapist. with expertise in trauma bonding
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  Speaker 2: and narcissistic abuse. She has a book coming out. It's
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  Speaker 2: called Run Like Hell, a therapist's guide to recognizing, escaping,
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  Speaker 2: and healing from trauma bonds. I pick her brain on
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  Speaker 2: finding love, identifying red flags, and making better choices in
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  Speaker 2: all of our relationships, a spouse, a friend, a parent.
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  Speaker 2: She also breaks down what a true narcissist is. I
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  Speaker 2: learned so much from her, and I know you guys
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  Speaker 2: will too. So sit back and listen to Nadine Macaluso.
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  Speaker 4: Dr.
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  Speaker 2: Ney, thank you for joining me here on Misunderstood.
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  Speaker 3: I'm so happy to be here. We've been trying to
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  Speaker 3: do this for a while.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, for sure. Well, before I even started my podcast,
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  Speaker 2: you were someone I had on my list because I
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  Speaker 2: thought what you represent is so important to people, you know,
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  Speaker 2: people that are in a situation that is misunderstood. And
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  Speaker 2: what you've been doing on your social media is so important,
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  Speaker 2: telling people about who you became. I think that for
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  Speaker 2: women and their credibility, it's taken away sometimes by a man,
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  Speaker 2: sometimes by a situation. And I think that the way
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  Speaker 2: that you have become somebody who stands on your own
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  Speaker 2: two feet is super impressive. And you've made your life
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  Speaker 2: about in the past about who you are in the future,
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  Speaker 2: but in a totally different way. You've taken your experience
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  Speaker 2: and made it into something that people can learn from.
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  Speaker 2: So I think that that's really important.
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  Speaker 3: Thank you.
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  Speaker 2: Thank you. So I wanted to start with. getting into,
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  Speaker 2: obviously people know you because your life was made into
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  Speaker 2: a movie. But I think I wanted to start a
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  Speaker 2: little bit before that of like, who were you before
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  Speaker 2: you met Jordan?
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  Speaker 3: Oh, I like that question. Yeah, that's a good one.
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  Speaker 5: So I was raised in Brooklyn, New York in the
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  Speaker 5: 70s by a single mother. And what a nice time
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  Speaker 5: that was. Can we go back to the 70s and 80s?
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  Speaker 5: So I had a really simple, easy childhood. And but
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  Speaker 5: I didn't grow up with a lot of money. And,
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  Speaker 5: you know, being close to New York City, I realized
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  Speaker 5: I need money to live. And so I became a model,
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  Speaker 5: not because that's what I wanted to do, but I
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  Speaker 5: need money to live. And so I was living in
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  Speaker 5: New York City, actually in Brooklyn Heights with my best
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  Speaker 5: friend modeling and having fun running around the city.
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  Speaker 3: And then, boom, I met JB.
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  Speaker 2: So what was your experience with men before him?
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  Speaker 3: Oh, I was dating every rich playboy in the city.
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  Speaker 2: Got it. So you had a type.
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  Speaker 3: I had a font. Yes, I had a type.
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  Speaker 5: And those successful guys in the city in the 80s
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  Speaker 5: and 90s, we called them model mongers.
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  Speaker 3: And they were like obsessed with dating a model.
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  Speaker 2: Of course.
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  Speaker 5: So it was a kind of a good connection or
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  Speaker 5: not good.
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  Speaker 3: But yeah, I was just having a lot.
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  Speaker 5: Of fun going to Studio 54, listening to Madonna.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 3: You know, just being a young, naive girl in the city. Right.
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  Speaker 2: And how did you meet Jordan?
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  Speaker 5: So I met him just like they show in the movie.
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  Speaker 5: I went to his home in West Hampton on Dune
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  Speaker 5: Road with my boyfriend at the time.
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  Speaker 3: Okay.
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  Speaker 2: How did you guys get an invite? Did your boyfriend
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  Speaker 2: at the time know him?
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  Speaker 5: Yes, I think my boyfriend got an invite, got an invite,
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  Speaker 5: got an invite, you know, and then we just showed up.
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  Speaker 2: But had you heard of him before?
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  Speaker 3: Oh, no.
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  Speaker 2: So it wasn't somebody that you were impressed by and
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  Speaker 2: you were like, I have to be with this guy.
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  Speaker 5: I knew nothing about him, nothing about the people he
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  Speaker 5: hung out with. No, just random.
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  Speaker 2: And what was your first impression of him?
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  Speaker 3: You know, it.
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  Speaker 5: Sounds mean to say, but I'm not trying to. I
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  Speaker 5: just didn't even notice him, really, because I was.
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  Speaker 3: There with my boyfriend.
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  Speaker 5: And but what I did notice, of course, he was
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  Speaker 5: nice and came up and said hello. But what happened
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  Speaker 5: is that when I went there. I could just tell
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  Speaker 5: everybody was acting very strange. And little did I know
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  Speaker 5: they were all on Quaaludes.
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  Speaker 2: Oh, goodness.
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  Speaker 3: You know, but I didn't know that back then.
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  Speaker 5: And then one man, you know, like showed himself to
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  Speaker 5: me and I got mortified as a young 22-year-old girl,
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  Speaker 5: felt super uncomfortable and said to my boyfriend, we must
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  Speaker 5: leave immediately.
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  Speaker 2: Got it.
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  Speaker 3: So.
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  Speaker 2: Now, he was married at the time, right?
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  Speaker 3: He was, correct.
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  Speaker 2: But he decided that you were the thing he wanted,
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  Speaker 2: and he pursued you heavily. Yes, yes, he did. So
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  Speaker 2: that's accurate.
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  Speaker 3: Yes, it is accurate.
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  Speaker 5: And at 22 years old, and I'm not saying this
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  Speaker 5: to make an excuse, he had set me up with like,
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  Speaker 5: he created a setup for me to meet him. And
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  Speaker 5: I remember saying to the woman, she said, Jordan's coming.
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  Speaker 3: I was like, isn't that weird? He's married. She's like,
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  Speaker 3: what do you care? And I said, no, I don't care.
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  Speaker 3: I just think it's strange. So there was that in
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  Speaker 3: the beginning.
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  Speaker 5: And then we had dinner at Mezzaluna and he told
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  Speaker 5: me he was separated. He had an apartment in the city.
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  Speaker 5: He was separated, but he was married at the time.
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  Speaker 5: But I don't think it's 22.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 3: I really understood all that.
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  Speaker 2: And how long did you guys end up dating before
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  Speaker 2: you two got married?
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  Speaker 3: Oh, it was fast and furious. A lot of love
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  Speaker 3: bombing going on there.
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  Speaker 5: So we got We got engaged six months later and
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  Speaker 5: married six months after that.
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  Speaker 2: Oh, wow. And he was able to get a divorce
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  Speaker 2: that quickly?
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  Speaker 3: I guess.
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  Speaker 2: Because these days you hear it takes years and decades
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  Speaker 2: sometimes for a man to get a divorce.
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  Speaker 3: He was able to get a divorce very quickly. And yeah.
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  Speaker 2: So let's talk about what love bombing is. Because, you know,
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  Speaker 2: what is the difference between someone who really likes you
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  Speaker 2: and is treating you in a healthy way and wants
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  Speaker 2: to give you nice things and love bombings?
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  Speaker 5: Well, the thing about love bombing is it's very intense
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  Speaker 5: and it's at a very fast pace.
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  Speaker 3: And so it's just so over the top. So it's
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  Speaker 3: so many gifts. It's so much. I love you. You're
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  Speaker 3: the air I breathe. You're my soulmate.
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  Speaker 5: I mean, you really don't know that about somebody two
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  Speaker 5: weeks into meeting them, but the person will tell you
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  Speaker 5: all those things.
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  Speaker 3: And of course, does that feel good? Yes. But there's
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  Speaker 3: There's a lot of future faking. Oh, we're going to
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  Speaker 3: move in together. We're going to plan this trip.
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  Speaker 5: And there's just a real fast and furious, intense pace
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  Speaker 5: that the relationship occurs at.
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  Speaker 6: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: So I'm curious, like, because I know this has happened
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  Speaker 2: to me. And so we both know. But for people listening,
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  Speaker 2: you know, is there can you say that you actually
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  Speaker 2: get to know someone that quickly or are you in
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  Speaker 2: love with the fact that they are? giving you all
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  Speaker 2: these things and making you feel special and important. But,
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  Speaker 2: you know, at the same time, you forget that you're
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  Speaker 2: missing out on knowing who they are, knowing how they
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  Speaker 2: are in a bad situation, know how they speak to people,
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  Speaker 2: know relationship, things that are really important to get to
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  Speaker 2: know someone as opposed to how they make you feel.
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  Speaker 3: Yes, exactly.
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  Speaker 5: I think that's a good way to say it. And again,
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  Speaker 5: it does feel good. And I was so young.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, I was absolutely clueless.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: And, yeah, it's the way that you feel when you're
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  Speaker 3: with them.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 3: It's almost like they don't want to give you time
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  Speaker 3: to get to know them.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: They want to lock you in. Right.
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  Speaker 2: And it's interesting. So I have suffered from love addiction.
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  Speaker 2: I have been, you know, I've gone on tour with Dr.
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  Speaker 2: Drew and talked about it. I was on celebrity rehab
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  Speaker 2: for love addiction. It sounds very similar to what you
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  Speaker 2: call trauma bonding, I guess. It's when people mistake intensity
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  Speaker 2: for love.
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  Speaker 3: Yes.
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  Speaker 2: Tend to be, you know, really open to that, who
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  Speaker 2: are really, I don't want to say damaged from their past,
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  Speaker 2: but sort of. I mean, it's people that really feel
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  Speaker 2: like they need someone to rescue them or feel like
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  Speaker 2: they are incomplete without someone doing that. And for me,
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  Speaker 2: I felt like I, you know, my level of credibility
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  Speaker 2: was who was on my arm or how they made
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  Speaker 2: me feel or how much they loved me. And it
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  Speaker 2: wasn't about whether or not they were a good guy
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  Speaker 2: or right for me. And if I was even right
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  Speaker 2: for them, sometimes I would give up who I was
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  Speaker 2: to be with them because it made me feel loved.
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  Speaker 2: And I think, you know, that's all signs of love
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  Speaker 2: addiction and you usually pick the wrong person. But that
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  Speaker 2: sounds a lot like, you know, what people who are
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  Speaker 2: dealing with the wrong person are getting into. What are
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  Speaker 2: your thoughts on that?
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  Speaker 5: Well, you know, that's where we get into a slippery
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  Speaker 5: slope because not all women who fall for men such
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  Speaker 5: as this have had traumatic pasts.
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  Speaker 6: Right.
• 9:40
  Speaker 5: So that's what my book actually is about, that there's
• 9:43
  Speaker 5: a lot of research on that. that they actually haven't
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  Speaker 5: had traumatic past. They're just usually highly agreeable women and
• 9:49
  Speaker 5: highly conscientious women, women that want to do the right thing,
• 9:53
  Speaker 5: women that are tolerant, women that are loyal, women that
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  Speaker 5: want to have an integrity-oriented life. But those beautiful qualities
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  Speaker 5: actually get weaponized. And the second thing that I'd like
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  Speaker 5: to say about that is that, you know, look at
• 10:07
  Speaker 5: the media.
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: Look at the myths.
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: Like what you hear? Turn into USL All Access Live.
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: every Tuesday at 8 p.m. Eastern on Sirius XM FC
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: channel 188 for exclusive interviews and the latest from around
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: the USL. The exclusive satellite radio home of the USL,
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: Sirius XM FC is North America's only 24-7 source for
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: engaging soccer talk and live matches from the USL, Premier League,
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: and more. All on Sirius XM FC channel 188 and
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: the Sirius XM app.
• 10:42
  Speaker 5: We've been fed about love. I mean, growing up, Pretty
• 10:45
  Speaker 5: Woman was a movie that, of course, was.
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  Speaker 3: In my time.
• 10:50
  Speaker 5: And we've been taught that someone's going to come save
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  Speaker 5: us and rescue us, right?
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  Speaker 3: So it's a real complex mix.
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  Speaker 2: Right, every Disney fantasy. Yes, don't say my.
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  Speaker 3: Prince will come. I mean, guess what? Ain't no prince coming. Yeah, right, right.
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  Speaker 3: So I think it's multiple causality.
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  Speaker 5: Now, yes, do some women, of course, have developmental trauma
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  Speaker 5: and have traumatic pasts?
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  Speaker 3: Yes, but not all.
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  Speaker 2: Right. And it doesn't have to be trauma with like
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  Speaker 2: a capital T. It doesn't have to be something major. Neglect.
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  Speaker 3: You know, only having one parent at home.
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  Speaker 2: Exactly.
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  Speaker 5: But I didn't have abuse in my home. My mother
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  Speaker 5: was very loving. We talked about feelings all the time.
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  Speaker 5: She was very psychological. Now, my dad was in and
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  Speaker 5: out of my life, but I was never abused.
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  Speaker 3: Right.
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  Speaker 5: And so that's kind of why I went back to
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  Speaker 5: the research because I was like, wait, there's something missing here.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, all right. Well, that's a good point. So anybody
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  Speaker 2: is susceptible. Anybody and everybody. Yeah, and nobody is immune
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  Speaker 2: to falling for the wrong person.
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  Speaker 6: Nobody.
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  Speaker 3: So that also takes the blame off the victim. Yeah, right.
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  Speaker 2: So let's get back a little bit to what was
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  Speaker 2: true about your life in the movie and what wasn't.
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  Speaker 4: Oh, boy.
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  Speaker 3: Okay, let me go back. So what was true?
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  Speaker 5: So what was true was... the amount of drugs. Jordan
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  Speaker 5: and I really fought about his drug addiction. That was
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  Speaker 5: very true and very traumatic. The ironic thing, and I
• 12:19
  Speaker 5: always get a kick out of this, is that.
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  Speaker 3: We never fought about women.
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  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. They made it seem like.
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  Speaker 3: That was a big part.
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  Speaker 5: They made it seem like that's what we fought about,
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  Speaker 5: and we just didn't.
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  Speaker 3: I'm not a jealous woman. I didn't know any of
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  Speaker 3: the stuff he was doing. Right. And so, but.
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  Speaker 5: you know, that's how they portrayed. I never threw water
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  Speaker 5: in his face. I mean, I probably should have, but
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  Speaker 5: I never did that. Um, so that's really the main
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  Speaker 5: differences and the truth.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 4: Okay.
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  Speaker 2: So you were married eight years. Am I correct?
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  Speaker 3: I think so.
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  Speaker 1: Okay.
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  Speaker 2: How did you finally decide that you needed to get
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: out or you needed a change?
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  Speaker 5: Yeah, so, you know, the research shows that a woman
• 13:04
  Speaker 5: tries to leave a trauma bonds about seven times.
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  Speaker 3: Before she's able to leave.
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  Speaker 5: Wow. So I, you know, I had children with him
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  Speaker 5: and I have two beautiful children and they're wonderful. And so,
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  Speaker 5: you know, it's hard to leave with children. And but
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  Speaker 5: his drug addiction was just getting so insane. And I
• 13:24
  Speaker 5: said to him, I'm not going to sit here and watch.
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  Speaker 3: You die. Yeah.
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  Speaker 5: You know, I'm not like all these psychophants who just
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  Speaker 5: suck off of you. And I'm like, I actually love
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  Speaker 5: you and care about you. And I'm not. So you
• 13:35
  Speaker 5: need to go to rehab. And he didn't want to
• 13:37
  Speaker 5: go to rehab. And we I went to a drug
• 13:39
  Speaker 5: counselor with him and then he didn't come back the
• 13:41
  Speaker 5: next day, of course. And she told me, if you
• 13:44
  Speaker 5: do not leave this man or he doesn't get intervention,
• 13:46
  Speaker 5: you're going to get cancer. And those words just snapped
• 13:51
  Speaker 5: me out of whatever trance I was in. And I
• 13:54
  Speaker 5: went home that day, and I said to him, I'm
• 13:55
  Speaker 5: leaving you unless you get an intervention. And he went crazy,
• 13:59
  Speaker 5: doing my clothing.
• 14:02
  Speaker 3: And jewelry in the fireplace. He was on drugs.
• 14:04
  Speaker 5: I probably shouldn't have said it at that moment, but
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  Speaker 5: I had had it. And that's kind of the scene
• 14:08
  Speaker 5: that you see in the movie, where the way they
• 14:12
  Speaker 5: show it isn't actually what happened. It was actually when
• 14:14
  Speaker 5: I confronted him about his drug addiction. So that was
• 14:17
  Speaker 5: a very violent scene, as you saw in the movie,
• 14:20
  Speaker 5: you know, with my daughter. We all made it out okay.
• 14:23
  Speaker 5: But he did go to rehab.
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  Speaker 3: Oh, God. So that was great.
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: How many times did he have to go to rehab?
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  Speaker 1: Once.
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: Oh, wow.
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  Speaker 3: He did great.
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  Speaker 5: You know, he's that type of person when he puts
• 14:32
  Speaker 5: his mind to it, he does it. But, you know,
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  Speaker 5: after all of the emotional abuse and the drug addiction
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  Speaker 5: and that really pivotal moment in my life, I really.
• 14:42
  Speaker 3: Fell out of love with him.
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: Right, right. So that emotional bond. wasn't necessarily there to
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: keep you. Because I think that that is a lot
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: what keeps people. We'll get into that more in general
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: in a little bit. So you finally got up, left,
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: took your kids and went somewhere else across the country.
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  Speaker 3: Yes.
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  Speaker 2: Right. I mean, how did you do that? And I mean,
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  Speaker 2: I think that is what really prevents a lot of
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: people from leaving because they don't have a career. They
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: don't have money. They have kids that are dependent on
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  Speaker 2: them and they have never had to handle everything on
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: their own. How did you do it? Well, besides being
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: ready for.
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  Speaker 3: It, because you're emotionally ready. While I was married to him,
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: I had started a maternity company.
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  Speaker 2: OK.
• 15:24
  Speaker 5: So I had my own little business, which I think
• 15:26
  Speaker 5: had helped me build a lot of confidence through the
• 15:29
  Speaker 5: last years of our marriage. And so I had that going.
• 15:33
  Speaker 5: And then I met a person who lived in California,
• 15:37
  Speaker 5: my current husband now, 24 years. And so he said
• 15:42
  Speaker 5: to me, you know, he'd like me to move. But
• 15:44
  Speaker 5: I couldn't move because of Jordan, right?
• 15:46
  Speaker 6: Mm-hmm.
• 15:47
  Speaker 5: But then Jordan actually ended up in jail because he
• 15:52
  Speaker 5: decided to take a helicopter to Atlantic City while he
• 15:55
  Speaker 5: was wearing an ankle bracelet.
• 15:58
  Speaker 4: Oh.
• 15:58
  Speaker 5: Smart.
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: Entitled.
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 16:01
  Speaker 5: So the judge actually, when we presented that, that he
• 16:05
  Speaker 5: wasn't even around and the government was taking everything I owned.
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: So I was able to move. And I would say
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: I took my kids and my curtains. Wow.
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: Oh, my goodness. But there was no money to take.
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: No, there was no money. I didn't take any money.
• 16:19
  Speaker 5: I actually, when he got arrested, he had $ 10 million
• 16:23
  Speaker 5: in bail. I gave back all my homes. I drove
• 16:26
  Speaker 5: all my jewelry to the court, gave it all back,
• 16:29
  Speaker 5: and took no money.
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: So that must have been so scary going from one
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: life to nothing.
• 16:34
  Speaker 5: You know, it was scary. But remember, I was also 31, right?
• 16:38
  Speaker 5: So I was still kind of young and dumb. And
• 16:40
  Speaker 5: I still kind of thought I could do anything.
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: And it was scary. But my mother taught me this.
• 16:46
  Speaker 5: She said, you know, when she was married to my
• 16:48
  Speaker 5: dad and she said that was destructive pain. But when
• 16:52
  Speaker 5: she left him and it was hard to live, that
• 16:54
  Speaker 5: was constructive pain. And I like that. And that was
• 16:57
  Speaker 5: very hard and very scary.
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 17:00
  Speaker 5: And, you know, I was emotionally overwhelmed many, many days.
• 17:04
  Speaker 5: But I don't know, just something within me was like,
• 17:06
  Speaker 5: there's a better life than this. And I don't care
• 17:08
  Speaker 5: about the money. I just want happiness and peace.
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: That's worth a billion dollars.
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: And it sounds like for the first time you were
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: in control. And that must have been really empowering. Whether
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: or not you knew it at that age, looking back now,
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: you were making your first decisions on your own.
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: I was making my decisions.
• 17:25
  Speaker 5: And I'd been in therapy for a while, so I
• 17:28
  Speaker 5: was really learning to trust myself because I think that's
• 17:31
  Speaker 5: a very important skill to develop. And you develop that
• 17:34
  Speaker 5: in therapy. So again, there was a myriad of things. Also,
• 17:39
  Speaker 5: I was just so happy to be done with that life.
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: Right, right. Now, you mentioned that you had met someone
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: who ultimately became your husband. How did you know at
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: the time, as young as you were, that you were
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: picking or depending on a new man who would be
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: the right type of man? Because you've now been married
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: for over two decades, right?
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah.
• 18:01
  Speaker 5: We've been married for a long time. We had a
• 18:03
  Speaker 5: blended family, a Brady bunch. Well, one of the first signs,
• 18:07
  Speaker 5: and this is great for your audience to know, we
• 18:09
  Speaker 5: had our first disagreement. And he said to me, oh,
• 18:12
  Speaker 5: I hear that.
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: I was like, what? Are you kidding me? I was like, wait,
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: you hear me? You understand me? Misunderstood, right? And he
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: was like, yeah, I get it. And I was like, wow.
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: So you knew he was different.
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: I could tell he was different.
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And how did you meet him?
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: I met him on a blind date.
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: Oh, wow.
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So somebody was setting you up.
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: Somebody set me up.
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: Perfect. OK, so when Jordan came out with this book,
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: which was what ultimately turned into a movie, how did
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: you feel knowing that someone was writing about your life?
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: Oh, that that was not fine.
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: You know, were you on good terms with him?
• 18:53
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: OK.
• 18:54
  Speaker 5: And I've always really been on good terms. That's one
• 18:57
  Speaker 5: thing that I really can say about us. We've had
• 18:59
  Speaker 5: our moments for sure. We're two strong willed people, but
• 19:02
  Speaker 5: we've been able to be on good terms. So when
• 19:04
  Speaker 5: I When he gave me the book, first of all,
• 19:08
  Speaker 5: I'm very dramatic.
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: So I read it, and I called him up. I
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: was like, why did you do this?
• 19:15
  Speaker 5: Oh, my God, I can't believe you did this. He's like, no, no,
• 19:17
  Speaker 5: I did it for us. I was like, no, you
• 19:18
  Speaker 5: didn't do it for me. But he did it for himself,
• 19:21
  Speaker 5: and I understand that. He's a bright man. He needed
• 19:23
  Speaker 5: to rebuild himself.
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: But I, like, threw it, you know, cried in bed.
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: My husband comes in. He's like, time to get up.
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: Oh, my goodness. But because you were embarrassed or because
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: he had embellished the truth?
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: Because he had embellished some of the truth.
• 19:38
  Speaker 5: And I just because it was so hard to live
• 19:41
  Speaker 5: through that Greek tragedy of my life.
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: Sure.
• 19:44
  Speaker 5: And then to see it again through his lens, which
• 19:46
  Speaker 5: wasn't even my lens or narrative again.
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: Was painful did.
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: He write you as a fantasy of how he saw
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: you yeah i mean because here you were represented by
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: margot robbie who's everyone's fantasy men and women i think
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: which um that at least must have been exciting for you.
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: You know, just like everything in life, it's a paradox.
• 20:07
  Speaker 5: I mean, she was lovely and I got to meet
• 20:09
  Speaker 5: her because they wanted my accent. But it's not the
• 20:12
  Speaker 5: funnest thing being compared to the.
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: Most beautiful woman in the world.
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: I'm sure.
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: Who's 20 years younger, but I'm kidding.
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: Okay, let's get started. Are you first time buyers? Yeah,
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: it's our first time.
• 20:26
  Speaker 4: So, it's your first time here?
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: No, it's first time buying.
• 20:31
  Speaker 4: Did you say no?
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: No.
• 20:33
  Speaker 5: For first time.
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: Buying no wait hold on okay please hold what no
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: no i told.
• 20:40
  Speaker 4: You to hold on you're viewing homes not mortgage advisors
• 20:45
  Speaker 4: so find your nearest branch at ebs.ie to get a
• 20:48
  Speaker 4: dedicated mortgage person throughout your mortgage journey ebs the mortgage
• 20:53
  Speaker 4: people lending criteria terms and conditions will apply ebs dac
• 20:57
  Speaker 4: is regulated by the central bank of ireland.
• 20:59
  Speaker 5: Just being funny about that but yeah i mean That
• 21:01
  Speaker 5: was what it was. And so I was not happy.
• 21:04
  Speaker 5: But I went to therapy.
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: I surrendered into it. And then he decides to get
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: a movie made.
• 21:12
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: So they decide that the book was interesting enough to
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: make a movie and then have Leonardo DiCaprio and Margot Robbie,
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: two most beautiful people. When you met her, incidentally, did
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: you think this girl's going to be a star? Because
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: that really put her on the map, right?
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: You know, when I met her... I didn't really know.
• 21:30
  Speaker 5: I mean, she was lovely and beautiful and they taped
• 21:33
  Speaker 5: my accent because they wanted this ridiculous, you know, Brooklyn accent.
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: I didn't I didn't really know.
• 21:39
  Speaker 5: And it was a very interesting time in my life
• 21:41
  Speaker 5: because I actually flew into New York to take my
• 21:43
  Speaker 5: daughter to college.
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: So it was kind of surreal.
• 21:46
  Speaker 5: I'm like, wait, I'm meeting this girl who's going to
• 21:48
  Speaker 5: play me. And then I'm taking my daughter to college.
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: Did you have any idea, you or Jordan, that it
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: was going to be such a hit?
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: Oh, I had no idea.
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: Like, people are still watching it to this day.
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I know. It's number two on Netflix because they
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: just really, I had no idea.
• 22:02
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: But I should have known, knowing Jordan. He goes big
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: or goes home.
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: Right, exactly. So did you go to a movie premiere?
• 22:10
  Speaker 5: I did not go to the movie premiere, but I
• 22:11
  Speaker 5: did send my children to it.
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: How did they feel about it?
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: You know, my kids are just well-adjusted, great kids. And
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: they were like, okay, that's dad.
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: You know?
• 22:24
  Speaker 5: Because i had already spoken to them ad nauseum about
• 22:26
  Speaker 5: our past right we had processed.
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: It so much so they weren't surprised and.
• 22:31
  Speaker 5: Um they loved their dad and he's a good dad
• 22:34
  Speaker 5: and you know first they maybe had a feeling but
• 22:36
  Speaker 5: then they were like okay pass the salt i mean
• 22:38
  Speaker 5: they didn't they.
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: Didn't care so they they ended up being able to
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: realize that there was some truth to it it was
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: based on a true story but it was embellished and
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: it was to sort.
• 22:48
  Speaker 5: Of be sensationalized yeah and then and then i um
• 22:51
  Speaker 5: Paramount's allowed my husband and I to have a private
• 22:54
  Speaker 5: screening of the movie.
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: And then Jordan and I took our son.
• 22:58
  Speaker 5: To a private screening because he was 17 at the time.
• 23:01
  Speaker 5: And so we thought it would be best first if
• 23:03
  Speaker 5: he saw it with us.
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: OK.
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: And and everybody. What did your husband think?
• 23:08
  Speaker 3: He you know, it was we watched it. And, you know,
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: of course, we're like, oh, my God. Oh, my God.
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: And he looks at me. He's like, it wasn't that bad.
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: Well it was great it wasn't it must not have
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: been great being your life but it was a great
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: movie yeah and.
• 23:20
  Speaker 5: Also the way they portrayed me you know was fine
• 23:24
  Speaker 5: right like I just look like a young girl who
• 23:26
  Speaker 5: loves her children who's tracing this maniac around right.
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: But that must have been hard because how old were
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: you when the movie came out at this point.
• 23:34
  Speaker 5: So I'm I was 45 because I was just getting
• 23:38
  Speaker 5: my doctorate when I came out.
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: So did you feel like that was going to affect
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: your credibility as someone who is now going to be
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: a doctor?
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: I did. I did.
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 23:46
  Speaker 5: I was like, who the hell is going to want
• 23:49
  Speaker 5: to come to me for therapy?
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: But then I have a really good practice of surrendering
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: into things that are bigger than me.
• 23:57
  Speaker 5: And I just thought, you know what? It's going to
• 24:00
  Speaker 5: be okay. And it ended up being fantastic, right? So
• 24:03
  Speaker 5: a lot of the things that we worry about ends
• 24:06
  Speaker 5: up turning out okay.
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: So you decided you wanted to become a psychiatrist, psychologist?
• 24:12
  Speaker 5: I'm a licensed marriage... Licensed marriage and family therapist. And
• 24:16
  Speaker 5: then I got my doctorate in somatic psychotherapy.
• 24:19
  Speaker 3: Great.
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: So did you know going into it that you wanted
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: to help people that were suffering in relationships in general?
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: I had no idea.
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: Talk to me about how you found that path.
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 24:28
  Speaker 5: So I really just wanted to become a therapist because
• 24:31
  Speaker 5: therapy had helped me so much when I was married
• 24:33
  Speaker 5: to Jordan. I know it probably saved my life. And
• 24:37
  Speaker 5: so at 39, I was like, you know what? I'm
• 24:40
  Speaker 5: going to go back to school and be a therapist.
• 24:43
  Speaker 5: And I just went and I just wanted to help
• 24:45
  Speaker 5: people that were suffering because I know what an amazing
• 24:48
  Speaker 5: gift psychotherapy is. I want to help people with anxiety
• 24:52
  Speaker 5: and depression and personality disorders and couples, of course, and families.
• 24:57
  Speaker 5: But then, you know, Jordan gave me the best gift
• 25:00
  Speaker 5: with that book and movie because people started to come
• 25:05
  Speaker 5: to me that had been in abusive relationships and And
• 25:08
  Speaker 5: I just saw woman after woman after woman. And I
• 25:11
  Speaker 5: know men get abused too, so I don't want to
• 25:13
  Speaker 5: take away from that. But the people that I was
• 25:15
  Speaker 5: seeing and what the research really demonstrates, it's mainly women.
• 25:19
  Speaker 5: And so I'm a big researcher. And I said, I'm
• 25:23
  Speaker 5: going to go back to the research and learn about
• 25:26
  Speaker 5: who the men are, who the women are, and what
• 25:28
  Speaker 5: exactly is happening. And then I did that. And then
• 25:33
  Speaker 5: it just overtook my life. But it wasn't a plan.
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: So here's where I want to get into what you
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: talk about now, because I think that's really important. First
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: of all, what you do on your social media, is
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: it The Real Nadine? Is that your handle?
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: The Real Dr. Nadine.
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: Yes. So people should definitely follow you there because you
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: talk all the time and do videos all the time
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: about certain things that I think can relate to almost anybody. Yes.
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: You talk a lot about trauma bonding. Explain the definition
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: of that, please.
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 26:06
  Speaker 5: So a trauma bond is a dysfunctional relationship. I'm going
• 26:09
  Speaker 5: to talk about it between two lovers, right? Where one
• 26:12
  Speaker 5: of the people is emotionally, verbally, physically abused, psychologically abused,
• 26:18
  Speaker 5: and they stay bonded to that person. But the thing
• 26:21
  Speaker 5: that makes it a trauma bond is it has to
• 26:23
  Speaker 5: have two conditions. The first thing is a power imbalance.
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 26:27
  Speaker 4: Right?
• 26:28
  Speaker 5: So one of the partners has to have like a
• 26:31
  Speaker 5: lot of power in the decision making, or they gain
• 26:34
  Speaker 5: a lot of power by threatening, dominating, and intimidating their
• 26:38
  Speaker 5: lover and making them fearful. The second thing is intermittent abuse,
• 26:43
  Speaker 5: meaning they're nice to their partner 25 to 35% of
• 26:48
  Speaker 5: the time, but they're cruel, coercively controlling, manipulative, and also
• 26:54
  Speaker 5: often betray them 65 to 75% of the time. what
• 26:59
  Speaker 5: the research shows, which is really important to understand is
• 27:02
  Speaker 5: that it's the intensity of both of those experiences, the
• 27:06
  Speaker 5: good and the bad that actually create the bonds, because
• 27:10
  Speaker 5: that makes you bond to a person more ironically than
• 27:13
  Speaker 5: just straight kindness.
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: Meaning those ups and downs are creating this, oh my God,
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: you don't want me. I need you to want me
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: like this back and forth of good times, bad times
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: is what's Bonding you together.
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: It's actually what.
• 27:26
  Speaker 5: So they did research with animal trainers, and they found
• 27:30
  Speaker 5: that the animal trainers that use intermittent abuse, the animals
• 27:34
  Speaker 5: bonded to them 230% more.
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 27:38
  Speaker 5: So when everybody says, like, why doesn't she leave? Or
• 27:41
  Speaker 5: it's a very deep psychological process.
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: Right, right.
• 27:45
  Speaker 6: So.
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: When you're talking about this kind of situation, most people,
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: I think, are thinking in their head, this is a narcissist.
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: That usually is the person of power.
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: I feel like there's a lot of misunderstanding around the
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: label of narcissism. It's talked about on every Bravo show.
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: You know what I mean? Everybody is like, oh, that
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: person's a narcissist. She's a narcissist. He's a narcissist. You know,
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: what is a narcissist?
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: Well, yeah, so.
• 28:13
  Speaker 5: You know, the character, the person who I call them
• 28:17
  Speaker 5: a pathological lover.
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 28:18
  Speaker 5: And the reason why I do that is because pathological
• 28:21
  Speaker 5: means mentally unwell. So the pathological lover is also very complex.
• 28:26
  Speaker 5: If they were just a narcissist, that would be awesome.
• 28:30
  Speaker 5: They're not just a narcissist.
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: Yes, they're self-absorbed. They're into their image often. They're selfish.
• 28:36
  Speaker 3: But they also usually have Machiavellianism.
• 28:41
  Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.
• 28:42
  Speaker 5: Which means they're highly manipulative, right? They usually have some
• 28:45
  Speaker 5: form of psychopathy, meaning they're callous and insensitive. Some of
• 28:49
  Speaker 5: them even have sadism, which is they enjoy hurting people
• 28:53
  Speaker 5: that are close to them. So under that umbrella, we
• 28:56
  Speaker 5: call that the dark tetrad. So I don't ever just
• 29:00
  Speaker 5: say narcissist. I mean, I do to appeal to my audience,
• 29:03
  Speaker 5: but it's much deeper.
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: Let's go further.
• 29:06
  Speaker 5: They usually have a compulsive process addiction, like sex or gambling.
• 29:11
  Speaker 5: They also have impulsivity. They also can have substance abuse, right?
• 29:16
  Speaker 5: And they also can have a mood disorder, anxiety, depression,
• 29:19
  Speaker 5: or bipolar.
• 29:20
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: So there's like seven different layers in this person.
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: Now, do these narcissists know that they are so, that
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: they have this label? Are they acting out intentionally, I guess,
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: is my question. Because I hear you talk a lot
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: about don't leave this person and let them know you're
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: leaving you know are are are these people doing these
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: things to you because they're like I'm gonna have control
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna put my finger on this person not let
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: them leave are they aware of what they're doing yeah
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: that's a.
• 29:52
  Speaker 5: Good question so intention is a huge word because I
• 29:56
  Speaker 5: do believe they intentionally do it You do.
• 30:00
  Speaker 6: Yes.
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: Because even if they.
• 30:03
  Speaker 5: Don't know that they're intentionally doing it, they're doing it
• 30:06
  Speaker 5: to have control. Because at the bottom of abuse, psychological, mental, verbal, emotional, financial,
• 30:13
  Speaker 5: spiritual is control. So coercive control is what they want.
• 30:18
  Speaker 5: I mean, they want control and they get it coercively.
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: But do you think that has to do with, like,
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: in simple terms, if they're just thinking about it, is
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: it like their self-esteem is so low so they want
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: you to feel bad about yourself? If they think that you're,
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: you know, you need them because they don't feel needed
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: by people and it makes them feel better?
• 30:35
  Speaker 6: Don't miss the USL championship final on CBS, November 21st
• 30:40
  Speaker 6: at noon Eastern. Will the Pittsburgh Riverhounds retain their crown?
• 30:44
  Speaker 6: Or will new title winners emerge? Don't miss the conclusion
• 30:48
  Speaker 6: to the 2026 season, Saturday, November 21st, noon Eastern, on CBS.
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: Where does that actually come from?
• 30:56
  Speaker 5: So, Lindsey Bancroft, who's one of my idols, and he
• 31:00
  Speaker 5: wrote a book, Why Does He Do That? And he's
• 31:01
  Speaker 5: worked with these men for over 20 years, so he
• 31:04
  Speaker 5: really knows these men better than any of us. And
• 31:07
  Speaker 5: he said, there are three reasons. I'm laughing because they're simple.
• 31:11
  Speaker 5: They feel superior.
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: They're entitled. And they have no moral compass.
• 31:16
  Speaker 5: And the way I describe it is that this sort
• 31:18
  Speaker 5: of person will use, exploit, and betray people that they
• 31:23
  Speaker 5: love to get their needs met for money, power, pleasure.
• 31:27
  Speaker 3: And status.
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: Right. So if they don't realize that this is how
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: their behavior is affecting other people, how they are emanating
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: who they are, how do they get help?
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: Well, first of all, they have to want to get help. Right.
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: So I mean, don't you think that eventually they'd see
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: that a lot of their relationships are falling apart or
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: people are accusing them of being a narcissist or, you know,
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: I'm sure they have all sorts of excuses and blame
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: the other person. But, you know, how do we change
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: someone who has those traits?
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: So or how do they change?
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: We said something important there.
• 32:00
  Speaker 5: Well, listen, I wouldn't be a therapist if I didn't
• 32:02
  Speaker 5: think most people can change right now.
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: A lot of.
• 32:07
  Speaker 5: Theorists and clinicians believe they can't change. I believe they can.
• 32:13
  Speaker 3: I've seen it. Not everybody, but I think if people
• 32:16
  Speaker 3: want to change, they can change. But it takes usually.
• 32:21
  Speaker 5: The hard thing about pathological lovers is they don't usually
• 32:25
  Speaker 5: hit rock bottom.
• 32:27
  Speaker 3: So they're not always like, oh, I want to change.
• 32:29
  Speaker 5: And some of them stay very wealthy, and if money
• 32:32
  Speaker 5: is their god, you have to remember... I forgot to mention...
• 32:36
  Speaker 5: They're antisocial in a way. Like you and I probably,
• 32:39
  Speaker 5: our relationships are everything in our lives. I'm a very
• 32:42
  Speaker 5: pro-relational person. Relationships are worth everything to me, right? To them,
• 32:47
  Speaker 5: relationships don't mean the same thing.
• 32:49
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: They're disposable.
• 32:52
  Speaker 5: Yeah, we think that they're looking at us the same
• 32:55
  Speaker 5: way we're looking at them, and they're not.
• 32:58
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 32:59
  Speaker 5: So listen, I would say get therapy if you're with
• 33:01
  Speaker 5: somebody and, you know, you believe they're like this or
• 33:05
  Speaker 5: have some of the traits, you know, use your leverage,
• 33:08
  Speaker 5: demand that they go to therapy.
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: And how, you know, you mentioned that with your current husband,
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: you finally felt heard. How would you get someone to
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: hear you? You know, when you're constantly trying to fight
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: for yourself or what you're trying to say, how do
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: you have someone that is not mentally well, how do
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: you get them to hear you?
• 33:26
  Speaker 3: You know, I mean, that's really tricky.
• 33:28
  Speaker 5: That's, it's very, it's, you can't really make anybody do anything.
• 33:33
  Speaker 5: I mean, the only person that we can control is ourselves,
• 33:36
  Speaker 5: but I know one thing that they do respond to
• 33:39
  Speaker 5: when they kind of realize you really don't need them,
• 33:43
  Speaker 5: they can get really scared and change.
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: Interesting. So that could be a version of their rock bottom.
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 33:49
  Speaker 5: They, when you, when they see you don't really need
• 33:51
  Speaker 5: them and you can be independent and live in the lot,
• 33:54
  Speaker 5: live your life and financially, emotionally, spiritually, physically, um, That
• 33:59
  Speaker 5: can wake them up. Right.
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: Because a lot of that control is they think that
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: you can't function without them.
• 34:04
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: Whether it's their money, their sex, their emotional support, whatever
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: it is, their home.
• 34:09
  Speaker 3: Whatever it is.
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Okay.
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: So that's... Yeah. So that's one of the things that
• 34:13
  Speaker 3: I've seen. Okay.
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: So now let's talk about someone that is the victim.
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: You know, I think there's a lot of this up
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: and down because... because they don't even a lot of
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: these people don't see themselves as a victim yet they
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: think that they're just in arguments they have come from
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: different experiences they make excuses for their partner um you
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: know how do you think what are the first steps
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: that people are that they will start to see this
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: isn't right and maybe this isn't a healthy relationship because
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: As you talked about, you loved Jordan, right, when you
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: met him. There were good parts to him.
• 34:49
  Speaker 3: Of course.
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: So I think that, I mean, is it true that
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: people hold on to those good parts and make excuses
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: for the bad?
• 34:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah, hope is the hook. Hope is the hook.
• 34:57
  Speaker 5: Because you have to remember, a trauma bond starts out
• 35:00
  Speaker 5: with promises of love and tenderness, right? And so we
• 35:06
  Speaker 5: believe that the person can be good because that's how
• 35:09
  Speaker 5: it starts out. Plus, they do throw that 25% to 15%.
• 35:11
  Speaker 3: Of tenderness good stuff in, right? They sprinkle it in.
• 35:16
  Speaker 3: So that keeps us hooked.
• 35:18
  Speaker 5: But I think when you start to realize that you're
• 35:21
  Speaker 5: feeling crazy, the conversations don't make sense. You know the
• 35:24
  Speaker 5: person's a pathological liar and can lie straight to your face.
• 35:28
  Speaker 3: Or when you see that you're.
• 35:30
  Speaker 5: Deeply hurt by some of their behavior and they don't
• 35:32
  Speaker 5: have remorse or empathy or compassion for.
• 35:35
  Speaker 4: You, right?
• 35:37
  Speaker 5: So these are all the signs that you're not dealing
• 35:39
  Speaker 5: with a person that can actually love you.
• 35:42
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: And then at some point you need to love yourself
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: enough that you're like, I'm not going to be cheated on.
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to be lied to. I'm not going
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: to just accept this. And I'm going to make a change,
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: whether that's asking for that person to get help or
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: it's actually leaving.
• 35:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: And I think that's obviously very difficult. So why do
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: you think that people, you know, we talked about a
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: little bit, but why is it so hard? You said
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: there's an emotional connection that eventually will get broken. But,
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: you know, You hear a lot of these people talk
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: about how even they get physically abused by people and
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: they stay. Why do people stay? What's the research on that?
• 36:18
  Speaker 5: Yeah, the research is that, you know, when someone threatens you,
• 36:22
  Speaker 5: humiliates you, degrades you, dominates you, it's not like a
• 36:28
  Speaker 5: one incident.
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: It's a slow burn over time.
• 36:31
  Speaker 5: And they're really conditioning you to fear you. They're really
• 36:35
  Speaker 5: conditioning you to fear them, to feel like you do
• 36:38
  Speaker 5: need them. And so it can be very hard then
• 36:44
  Speaker 5: to unglue yourself from them. Plus, there's something called cognitive dissonance,
• 36:50
  Speaker 5: which is one of the number one.
• 36:53
  Speaker 3: Symptoms of a trauma bond.
• 36:55
  Speaker 5: And cognitive dissonance is It's the mental uncomfort that you
• 36:59
  Speaker 5: feel from holding two conflicting ideas, right?
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: So he's good, he's bad. Am I crazy? Am I good?
• 37:05
  Speaker 3: Is the relationship good or bad?
• 37:07
  Speaker 5: So you have three sets of good, bad, good, bad, good,
• 37:10
  Speaker 5: bad ping-ponging around in your brain the whole time, and
• 37:14
  Speaker 5: it stops you from seeing things clearly, right? Because it
• 37:19
  Speaker 5: actually activates neural activity in our brain to have all
• 37:22
  Speaker 5: those conflicting ideas always bouncing around.
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: And often we feel shame, so then we isolate.
• 37:29
  Speaker 5: So we have nobody challenging us and saying, hey, this
• 37:33
  Speaker 5: isn't right.
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, there are people that are not good at
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: reading red flags.
• 37:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I was one of them. Yeah.
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: Well, aren't we all? But, you know, your friends will
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: always be like, that's a red flag. That's a red flag.
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: Sometimes red flags are a joke because there's just too
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: many and you'll never be in a relationship.
• 37:51
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: Can you name three red flags that should be deal
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: breakers for people?
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 37:56
  Speaker 3: So one of the first ones is boundaries. OK. Right.
• 38:00
  Speaker 5: So if you try to set boundaries with somebody and
• 38:04
  Speaker 5: they just plow through them and don't listen to them,
• 38:08
  Speaker 5: that that's a big red flag.
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: Right. Meaning, don't do this. I don't like it when
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: you do this. And they just ignore you.
• 38:15
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 38:16
  Speaker 3: I'll give you an example.
• 38:17
  Speaker 5: So when I first met Jordan, I didn't want to
• 38:19
  Speaker 5: have a baby.
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: I was just too young. I love my children. I
• 38:23
  Speaker 3: want to have babies.
• 38:24
  Speaker 5: And he was like, you're going to have a baby now.
• 38:25
  Speaker 5: I'm like, I'm not going to have a baby now.
• 38:28
  Speaker 5: And he forced me. He would not respect my boundary.
• 38:32
  Speaker 5: And that's a life decision.
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: Sure.
• 38:35
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: Or even getting married that soon.
• 38:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 38:37
  Speaker 5: Like that should have been a red flag. But I
• 38:39
  Speaker 5: didn't I didn't understand that.
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: But did you think like, oh, he just loves me?
• 38:43
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 38:43
  Speaker 3: I was just like, oh, he just loves me so much. Yes,
• 38:46
  Speaker 3: I did think that.
• 38:47
  Speaker 5: Also, when someone really comes to you and says really
• 38:51
  Speaker 5: complains about their ex and says their ex was the
• 38:54
  Speaker 5: craziest person on the planet and that that's another red flag.
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: Now, so explain that, because I will tell you I
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: know this one very well. You know, I have learned
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: in my old age that, you know, I'm 48. I've
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: been in a lot of relationships. When a man talks
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: badly about their the mother of their child or their ex. Yes.
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: I don't even respect that. Like, I think that is
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: so awful because, I mean, I know plenty of men
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: that will say, listen, we don't get along, but I
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: pay the child support because I love my child or,
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: you know.
• 39:29
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: Don't need to speak to them but I you know
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: I care about them because they you know are they
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: they were in a relationship with me or they gave
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: me a child I think those are qualities that you
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: should look for somebody who may have a difficult time
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: with their ex because that's why we're not with them
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: because we don't get along But if they can speak kindly,
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: even when they don't want to, that is a good person.
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: That's right. Exactly.
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. And I have been, you know, I have
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: an ex who speaks horribly about me to all of
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: his new women. And, you know, then each one of
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: them ends up disliking me because of that. And then
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: later when they break up, Say, I didn't realize that
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: now he's doing this to me. And it goes on
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: and on and on. You can see those patterns with people.
• 40:14
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: And I find that that is really, you know, unattractive
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: in a person now going forward. So that to me
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: is a good red flag.
• 40:21
  Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yes.
• 40:23
  Speaker 5: And anybody who's you think has a substance abuse issue,
• 40:28
  Speaker 5: don't ignore that.
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah that's because that'll eventually be a problem yeah that
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: kind of don't.
• 40:32
  Speaker 6: Miss the usl championship final on cbs november 21st at
• 40:37
  Speaker 6: noon eastern will the pittsburgh riverhounds retain their crown or
• 40:40
  Speaker 6: will new title winners emerge don't miss the conclusion to
• 40:44
  Speaker 6: the 2026 season saturday november 21st noon eastern on.
• 40:50
  Speaker 5: Cbs eventually really snowball yeah those are Three really important
• 40:55
  Speaker 5: things to look at, look for.
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: And maybe people that have their own addiction problems should
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: try and not be with someone who can enable that.
• 41:05
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: In you, because that'll just turn into a snowball.
• 41:08
  Speaker 6: Yes.
• 41:08
  Speaker 3: As well.
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: Yes. I want to talk about, you know, this isn't
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: just in sexual relationships. This can be in the workplace.
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: This can be with parents.
• 41:17
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: How do you identify it? So living with a boss
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: that's narcissistic or a parent, a mother or father, it's
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: really hard because you can't get away. You don't want
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: to lose your job.
• 41:29
  Speaker 3: That's correct.
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: And these are your parents. You're stuck with them. Yes.
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: How do you deal with stuff that you cannot just
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: walk away from?
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 41:37
  Speaker 5: Well, first of all, you have to get educated and
• 41:40
  Speaker 5: understand all the things that we're talking about because when
• 41:44
  Speaker 5: you have education... you can really, it makes you, allows
• 41:48
  Speaker 5: you not to personalize. You know, a lot of times,
• 41:52
  Speaker 5: most of the times, the way a person treats us
• 41:55
  Speaker 5: initially really has nothing to do with us and more
• 41:59
  Speaker 5: to do with them.
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: That's really important for people to hear.
• 42:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, really important.
• 42:04
  Speaker 5: So, I mean, one of the things that makes us
• 42:07
  Speaker 5: pessimistic is personalizing things. And really all you can do
• 42:12
  Speaker 5: with somebody like that is be authentic. Because when you're
• 42:16
  Speaker 5: with a dominating person, I mean, parents and children are
• 42:19
  Speaker 5: totally different subjects. But if you're with a dominating boss,
• 42:23
  Speaker 5: if you rebel against them, it's still about them. If
• 42:26
  Speaker 5: you please them, it's still about them. But if you
• 42:29
  Speaker 5: come from your authentic self time and time again, you're
• 42:33
  Speaker 5: not self-sacrificing and you're not self-abandoning, which will probably allow
• 42:37
  Speaker 5: you to stay in that dynamic.
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 42:40
  Speaker 3: OK, because they're everywhere. Right. So we have to be.
• 42:43
  Speaker 5: They also have to figure out. We also have to
• 42:45
  Speaker 5: figure out how to live in the world.
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: I have a personal question for you about me. You know,
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: I have a parent who I would say is abusive
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: in that way, but only to me. Everyone thinks that
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: they are just the most amazing person. They don't see it.
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: But to me, I feel gaslit or growing up, you know,
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: I felt gaslit. I felt misunderstood. I felt like, you know,
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: I was, you know, ridiculed almost like I had to
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: live with a lot of shame from how they made
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: me feel. But I felt like no one else did.
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: saw that, or at least came to my aid. Right.
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: And I think that was really hard for me. How, like,
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: is that a real thing that they have that personality
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: or those traits with you as their child, as opposed
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: to that's how their personality is with everyone. Could that
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: be a thing? Sure.
• 43:37
  Speaker 5: Because with people close to us, our attachment system gets activated. Um,
• 43:43
  Speaker 5: and so that's also going to give us a different
• 43:46
  Speaker 5: experience of engaging with people, right? It's like, I'm different
• 43:50
  Speaker 5: with the guy at the supermarket than I am with
• 43:52
  Speaker 5: my husband and my children, right? The guy at the
• 43:54
  Speaker 5: supermarket can't get me mad, really.
• 43:56
  Speaker 3: They can, right? Because I care about them.
• 43:59
  Speaker 5: So that can happen because their attachment system and your
• 44:02
  Speaker 5: attachment system, you're attached to each other.
• 44:04
  Speaker 3: And it gets activated, for sure.
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: And I think that's why people have a hard time
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: at holidays, Thanksgiving, they go back home. And all of
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: a sudden they revert back to.
• 44:11
  Speaker 3: Being a 14 year old.
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: Person in their parents' house. And it ends up being
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: so miserable because they, they express those same patterns they
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: had when they were a kid and their parent treats them.
• 44:21
  Speaker 3: Yes. They regress. They regress.
• 44:23
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 44:23
  Speaker 5: And it's horrible when it's a parent because the child
• 44:26
  Speaker 5: really is a victim, right?
• 44:28
  Speaker 3: They can't escape.
• 44:29
  Speaker 5: And they do feel a lot of shame and self
• 44:31
  Speaker 5: blame when the parent does that.
• 44:34
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
• 44:35
  Speaker 3: I'm sorry.
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: Oh, thank you. No, I've spent many years dealing with it. So,
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: you know, I've realized that I, I need to react
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: differently is how I have learned to cope with it
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: because I was very, uh, what's the word reactionary.
• 44:49
  Speaker 3: I would always react instead of respond. Yeah.
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: And, um, I would just feel like it was affecting
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: other people around me, not just that one relationship.
• 45:00
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: You know, I would become so angry.
• 45:03
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: Um, but you know, Then it was like, well, God,
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: you're such an angry person. You have to, you know,
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: deal with your anger. And I would be like, no,
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: I'm just angry at you, you know, about how you're
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: treating me.
• 45:14
  Speaker 3: Yes, you're not an angry person.
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 45:15
  Speaker 5: And that brings us to a really important point about
• 45:17
  Speaker 5: the victim in a trauma bond. You know, if somebody
• 45:20
  Speaker 5: betrays you and lies to you and pokes you enough
• 45:22
  Speaker 5: and is emotionally abusive and exploits.
• 45:24
  Speaker 3: You, you're going to get angry.
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 45:27
  Speaker 3: Oh, you're eventually I hope you get angry.
• 45:28
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 45:29
  Speaker 5: And that's reactive anger. That's different than proactive anger. That's
• 45:33
  Speaker 5: intentional anger. to hurt somebody right but the thing is
• 45:37
  Speaker 5: that even if you're valid in your anger as you
• 45:39
  Speaker 5: know you become the crazy person right right always yeah
• 45:44
  Speaker 5: so it's better to just ground stay calm recognize what's
• 45:49
  Speaker 5: happening and make a choice and how you're going to respond.
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah and also as you said have boundaries just like
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: i don't need to talk to this person anymore or
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: i don't need to talk to them about those things
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: that get us into these types of arguments That's correct.
• 46:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I always say I have a rule.
• 46:05
  Speaker 5: You have to be kind to me and you have
• 46:07
  Speaker 5: to have my best interest at your heart. And then
• 46:12
  Speaker 5: I can have a relationship with you.
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. Okay, so what are some signs or good
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: pieces of advice to get into a healthy relationship?
• 46:23
  Speaker 3: That's a nice one. Yeah.
• 46:26
  Speaker 5: I think one of the reasons why I wrote my
• 46:28
  Speaker 5: book is to also educate women on getting to know themselves.
• 46:33
  Speaker 5: You know, understand how your early developmental trauma affected you,
• 46:37
  Speaker 5: if you had some.
• 46:38
  Speaker 3: We've all had some, right? Because nobody's parents are perfect.
• 46:41
  Speaker 5: So that teaches you about your attachment system. Learn about
• 46:44
  Speaker 5: your personality. Really become educated about yourself. And what defenses
• 46:50
  Speaker 5: do you use in love, right?
• 46:52
  Speaker 3: Do you have anxious attachment?
• 46:53
  Speaker 5: When somebody isn't responsive to you, do you go, oh,
• 46:56
  Speaker 5: my God, oh, my God, I need you, I need you?
• 46:58
  Speaker 5: Or if somebody's not responsive, do you have avoidant attachment?
• 47:00
  Speaker 3: You know, leaning out.
• 47:01
  Speaker 5: So I think it's very important to learn about yourself first.
• 47:06
  Speaker 5: And then you get to, then when you meet people,
• 47:11
  Speaker 5: listen to your body, you know, our true self lives
• 47:15
  Speaker 5: in our body. Our ego really lives in our minds
• 47:18
  Speaker 5: and our defenses are in our minds.
• 47:20
  Speaker 3: So trust your body. How does your body feel with
• 47:22
  Speaker 3: that person? How does your gut feel?
• 47:24
  Speaker 5: Don't override your, those that little intuitive voice that's actually
• 47:29
  Speaker 5: a very big, powerful voice that says, don't do this.
• 47:32
  Speaker 5: This doesn't feel right. Follow, follow, follow how you feel.
• 47:36
  Speaker 5: Don't second guess yourself.
• 47:38
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: So what would you say for people that are used
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: to or overcome with these love bombers?
• 47:44
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So for me. I will go on a date
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: and if I don't feel some like spark or, you know,
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: I'm more aware of it now, but oh my God,
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: we feel like we've known each other forever. I can
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: date this, you know, but they become an automatic boyfriend
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: by the end of the night and I'll date them
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: for three years. But like, if that doesn't happen, I
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: tend to be like, I'm not into this person and
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: I don't give them, you know, a shot. I become
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: a shredder. I'm like, that's it. I'll move on to
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: the next one. So how does someone get out of
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: that pattern of, of, you know, seeing this intensity and
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: Where they know that it's okay to go on four
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: dates or something to find an intensity.
• 48:21
  Speaker 3: Right, right. You know, I think in.
• 48:23
  Speaker 5: This country we have to recognize that it's okay to
• 48:27
  Speaker 5: be drama-free.
• 48:29
  Speaker 3: Like, it's okay.
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 48:31
  Speaker 3: It's okay to feel a little boring.
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 48:34
  Speaker 5: It's okay because that means your life is peaceful. And so,
• 48:38
  Speaker 5: you know, yes, of course you want to be, you know, physically.
• 48:42
  Speaker 3: Attracted to somebody. I mean, that's a very important piece
• 48:45
  Speaker 3: of it.
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: But you'll become more attracted to them physically as you
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: get to know them and.
• 48:50
  Speaker 3: You like them as a person. Exactly.
• 48:53
  Speaker 5: And I would say, you know, we have to give
• 48:56
  Speaker 5: people chances. We have to give people a chance to
• 48:58
  Speaker 5: get to know them. I mean, they say it takes
• 49:00
  Speaker 5: seven years to even fully get to know somebody.
• 49:02
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 49:02
  Speaker 5: So we have to give somebody more than one date. And,
• 49:06
  Speaker 5: you know, how do they treat you? Do they come
• 49:08
  Speaker 5: pick you up? Are they kind to you? Do they
• 49:11
  Speaker 5: text you the next day?
• 49:12
  Speaker 3: Are they inquisitive? Do they ask you questions about you?
• 49:15
  Speaker 5: Are they just sitting there you know talking about themselves
• 49:18
  Speaker 5: non-stop right what's the relationship with their mother if they
• 49:21
  Speaker 5: have children with their children right.
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah So I actually think that's a great point, that
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: you should start to look at the qualities that that
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: person possesses instead of, oh, they made me feel known.
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: You know, they made me feel understood. I felt like
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: this sexual chemistry at dinner. Those are not the things
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: that should be a priority the first couple times meeting.
• 49:42
  Speaker 3: No, and then if it does happen, that's great.
• 49:46
  Speaker 5: But, right, you want to get to know who is
• 49:48
  Speaker 5: this person, as much as you can, sitting across from me.
• 49:52
  Speaker 5: And you do get to know that by... if they're curious,
• 49:55
  Speaker 5: and you being curious, about their relationships that they currently have.
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: Yes, right. That's a very good point. What would you
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: say to people that have bad pickers? A lot of
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: us are used to picking the wrong person over and
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: over and over again.
• 50:10
  Speaker 5: You know, I hate that term because I just think, again,
• 50:13
  Speaker 5: it puts the onus on the person who's intentionally wants
• 50:17
  Speaker 5: to love. Again, get to know yourself, learn the red flags, right?
• 50:24
  Speaker 3: Get educated, and then just get curious.
• 50:27
  Speaker 5: You know, a lot of times we shame ourselves, but
• 50:30
  Speaker 5: get curious, like, okay, what's the pattern here?
• 50:33
  Speaker 3: How are these people behaving initially? Right. And then I
• 50:37
  Speaker 3: end up feeling incredibly hurt. Right. Right?
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: Do you believe in people that are manifesting things, that
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: are saying positive things to themselves, and that will put
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: it in the universe?
• 50:50
  Speaker 4: Um.
• 50:51
  Speaker 3: I'm not, like, the biggest manifester.
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: I'm not either.
• 50:55
  Speaker 3: I'm really into hard work and grit. Yeah.
• 50:58
  Speaker 5: But, of course, I think saying, I think the way
• 51:00
  Speaker 5: we speak to ourselves is highly important. You know, being
• 51:04
  Speaker 5: compassionate with yourself. Not like, oh, God damn it, you
• 51:06
  Speaker 5: picked an asshole again. You know, it's like, you know what,
• 51:09
  Speaker 5: you tried.
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 51:10
  Speaker 3: You're trying.
• 51:11
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 51:11
  Speaker 3: You know, dating nowadays, I know from all my patients,
• 51:14
  Speaker 3: is so hard.
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: Very hard.
• 51:17
  Speaker 3: You know, the internet changed the world.
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and everyone can get something better by just opening
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: their phone. So it's very difficult.
• 51:25
  Speaker 3: It's very difficult.
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: Those dating apps make it hard.
• 51:27
  Speaker 3: So I just say, like, if you're dating, good for you.
• 51:30
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: And also, I think it's important to realize you're not
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: going to marry everyone you date. So dating is just that.
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: You can go from one to the next. I mean,
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: you don't need to have sex with everybody and become
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: an addict of certain sorts. But I think it's important
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: to try people on, see what makes you happy. But
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: even my daughter said to me, mom, you're dating again.
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: Somebody new again. And I'm like, I don't even date
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: that much. But I had to explain to her. But
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: it's not a fail if they don't work. It's not,
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: you're just meeting new people and trying out new personalities
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: and seeing what works and what doesn't. And hopefully you
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: learn from your mistakes that you've made every time.
• 52:11
  Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
• 52:13
  Speaker 5: And I always tell my patients to take the pressure
• 52:15
  Speaker 5: off of them. I said, we're just, we're just going
• 52:17
  Speaker 5: to be in a relational lab. The world is now
• 52:20
  Speaker 5: your relational lab and you're going to go experiment.
• 52:22
  Speaker 3: Right, right. To take this pressure off them that we
• 52:25
  Speaker 3: always have to get it right. And We can't fail.
• 52:28
  Speaker 3: We can't make mistakes. We can't get rejected. That's inevitable.
• 52:31
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 52:31
  Speaker 3: That just means you're trying. Yeah.
• 52:33
  Speaker 2: And I think it's also important for people to remember
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: you are OK in the space you're at now. No
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: one's in a hurry to get remarried, married for the
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: first time, have kids, you know, all this stuff. I
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: think it's important to try to be happy with where
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: you are in your life because somebody else is not
• 52:50
  Speaker 2: going to. Fill your happiness.
• 52:51
  Speaker 4: No.
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's the lesson we've all learned as you
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: get older.
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: That unless you're happy, you know, someone else cannot be
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: responsible for your happiness.
• 53:00
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 53:00
  Speaker 5: The only thing that I deal with with my patients,
• 53:03
  Speaker 5: and I really feel for so many women with this, is.
• 53:06
  Speaker 3: Our biological clocks in children.
• 53:09
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 53:09
  Speaker 3: You know, and that's where it gets tricky. Absolutely. Because
• 53:12
  Speaker 3: that's a real... That's a real thing. That's a real thing.
• 53:16
  Speaker 3: You know, actually being in.
• 53:17
  Speaker 5: Menopause myself and understanding the incense, the way that hormones
• 53:25
  Speaker 5: affect us.
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 53:26
  Speaker 5: You know, so that I do have so much compassion
• 53:28
  Speaker 5: for women that are feeling that clock tick.
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 53:32
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: That's a good point. All right. Talk about your book.
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: You have a book coming out in January called Run
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: Like Hell.
• 53:37
  Speaker 3: What is it? So Run Like Hell is a labor
• 53:41
  Speaker 3: of love.
• 53:41
  Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.
• 53:42
  Speaker 5: That I wrote because I went back to the research,
• 53:46
  Speaker 5: and it's Run Like Hell, A Therapist's Guide for Recognizing, Escaping,
• 53:50
  Speaker 5: and Healing from Trauma Bonds. So what I do is
• 53:53
  Speaker 5: in the first section, I describe four trauma-bonded couples, right?
• 53:58
  Speaker 5: Because nobody just wants to read a book with all
• 54:00
  Speaker 5: clinical terms. So you can kind of see yourself in
• 54:04
  Speaker 5: one of the couples. I explain the pathological lover, and
• 54:07
  Speaker 5: then I explain what a trauma bond is. Then in
• 54:10
  Speaker 5: the second section of the book, I explain the personality
• 54:14
  Speaker 5: of the woman. I explain how the emotional scars that
• 54:18
  Speaker 5: we get from trauma bonds, how to leave safely. And
• 54:21
  Speaker 5: then the third section is all how to heal.
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: Amazing.
• 54:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: And it's available for pre-order now?
• 54:26
  Speaker 5: It's available for pre-order on Amazon. It was the hardest
• 54:29
  Speaker 5: thing I've ever done. I said to my husband, if
• 54:31
  Speaker 5: I ever say I'm going to write another book, lock
• 54:35
  Speaker 5: me in my room. Because it was incredibly hard.
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: How long did it take you?
• 54:40
  Speaker 3: Oh, God. It took me years.
• 54:43
  Speaker 4: Did it?
• 54:44
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 54:44
  Speaker 5: It took me years because if you came into my office,
• 54:47
  Speaker 5: you would just see like papers and books and just.
• 54:49
  Speaker 3: Research like everywhere because I'm pulling from research, pulling from research,
• 54:53
  Speaker 3: pulling from research.
• 54:54
  Speaker 5: And I mean, I think it's like 60,000 words and
• 54:57
  Speaker 5: it's hard to make 60,000 words, each one good.
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 55:01
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 55:01
  Speaker 3: Of course.
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: What would you say, you know, because again, people mostly
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: know your life story from this movie.
• 55:08
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: What is one thing that you would say people don't
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: know from watching that movie about your relationship with Jordan
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: or just relationships in general like we're discussing?
• 55:20
  Speaker 5: Yeah, that the movie doesn't show. I don't think the
• 55:25
  Speaker 5: movie shows, well.
• 55:27
  Speaker 3: Listen, it's a comedy, right? So, which I understand that.
• 55:32
  Speaker 5: I don't think it really showed the deep pain that
• 55:35
  Speaker 5: I was in.
• 55:36
  Speaker 3: And that's okay. I mean, it wasn't that it wasn't
• 55:38
  Speaker 3: made from my perspective. Right. But to fall.
• 55:42
  Speaker 5: In love with someone and have this hope of sharing
• 55:45
  Speaker 5: a life with them and then just watching it year
• 55:48
  Speaker 5: after year unravel and get worse and worse was extraordinarily painful.
• 55:54
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 55:54
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 55:55
  Speaker 3: It was, um, had many moments where life brought me
• 55:58
  Speaker 3: to my knees. Right. And so it.
• 56:00
  Speaker 5: Probably wouldn't be as humorous to show that, but, uh,
• 56:05
  Speaker 5: It was scary as fuck, too.
• 56:07
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 56:07
  Speaker 2: Do you have any regrets?
• 56:09
  Speaker 3: Not one.
• 56:10
  Speaker 6: Wow.
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: Amazing.
• 56:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I know.
• 56:12
  Speaker 5: Because I have my beautiful children, and my daughter's a therapist,
• 56:15
  Speaker 5: and she just gave birth, so I have a beautiful grandson,
• 56:19
  Speaker 5: and my son's a musician, and I have three beautiful stepdaughters.
• 56:24
  Speaker 5: So life turned out good.
• 56:26
  Speaker 3: That doesn't mean it's still not. Life is always going
• 56:29
  Speaker 3: to throw shit at you. Of course. But that's why
• 56:32
  Speaker 3: if you go to therapy and get resourced, you build resilience.
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: If you had to give one piece of advice to
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: our listeners or, like, what would you say to your
• 56:40
  Speaker 2: kids about relationships, something you learned along the way?
• 56:46
  Speaker 5: Well, I know that relationships are what make life. Mm-hmm.
• 56:52
  Speaker 6: Right?
• 56:52
  Speaker 5: They are what, I mean, I could almost cry as
• 56:54
  Speaker 5: I say it. Like, I just know that they're what
• 56:56
  Speaker 5: make life worth living.
• 56:57
  Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.
• 56:59
  Speaker 5: And to me, they're the most important thing to get
• 57:02
  Speaker 5: a return on investment from. Mm-hmm. And to really surround
• 57:06
  Speaker 5: yourself with people that are kind to you and love you,
• 57:10
  Speaker 5: albeit imperfect, but have the right intention to care for you.
• 57:14
  Speaker 5: Because when you love somebody, you hate to see them suffer.
• 57:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Right?
• 57:20
  Speaker 5: And to have people around you that feel like that.
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 57:23
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 57:24
  Speaker 3: I think it's really important.
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: And I think what's really important, too, is being able
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: to get the help from someone like you to know
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: when– it's right to give up on someone and when
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: to put yourself first or when the relationship can sustain
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: these issues and when you shouldn't give up on a relationship.
• 57:45
  Speaker 2: And I think the only way you can know that,
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: to know the level of how toxic it is or whatever,
• 57:51
  Speaker 2: is if you know yourself and if you get the
• 57:54
  Speaker 2: help from a professional to help you make that decision.
• 57:58
  Speaker 3: Yes, and therapy.
• 57:59
  Speaker 5: you know, is a game changer and a lifesaver. And
• 58:03
  Speaker 5: I know it can be expensive, but I always want
• 58:05
  Speaker 5: to say this. To become a licensed therapist, I had
• 58:08
  Speaker 5: to do 3,000 hours, right? And I did that for
• 58:11
  Speaker 5: $ 10 an hour.
• 58:12
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 58:13
  Speaker 5: So if you do want therapy, look up in your
• 58:16
  Speaker 5: state where the interns are, where the people who are
• 58:19
  Speaker 5: training are, because.
• 58:20
  Speaker 3: There are sensors everywhere.
• 58:22
  Speaker 5: And that makes it a lot more accessible for people
• 58:24
  Speaker 5: to get that help.
• 58:25
  Speaker 3: Right, right.
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: Okay, where can people find you if they want to
• 58:28
  Speaker 2: reach out to you?
• 58:29
  Speaker 5: Okay, so they can find me at TheRealDrNadeen on Instagram,
• 58:32
  Speaker 5: and then my TikTok, which is a whole crazy Wild
• 58:36
  Speaker 5: West out there, is DrNadeen, A-E-L-M-F-T.
• 58:41
  Speaker 6: Great.
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: Yes. And they can get your book?
• 58:44
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: And do you read your DMs if people want to?
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: I do.
• 58:48
  Speaker 3: Okay. I answer every single direct message myself.
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: Amazing.
• 58:52
  Speaker 4: Amazing.
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: Good to know.
• 58:53
  Speaker 3: All right.
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much for being here. I'm sure
• 58:55
  Speaker 2: that you have been a huge help to our listeners.
• 58:57
  Speaker 2: And actually, one last question. What would you say is
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: the most misunderstood thing about people in toxic relationships?
• 59:07
  Speaker 3: That's let me think what's the most.
• 59:10
  Speaker 5: Misunderstood that they're weak they're the strongest most creative women
• 59:17
  Speaker 5: I've ever met.
• 59:19
  Speaker 2: I love that answer Dr. Ney thank you thank you
• 59:22
  Speaker 2: Rachel Thank you so much for listening to Misunderstood. I'm
• 59:36
  Speaker 2: your host, Rachel Yucatel. Please be sure to subscribe to
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: the show and give us a five-star rating and review.
• 59:42
  Speaker 2: You can support the show by joining our Patreon at patreon.com
• 59:46
  Speaker 2: slash misunderstood with Rachel Yucatel. Do you have ideas for
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: the show or want to reach out? Email us at
• 59:51
  Speaker 2: infomisunderstoodpodcast at gmail.com. That's spelled M-I-S-S understood. Thank you so much,
• 59:59
  Speaker 2: and I'll see you next time. Misunderstood. Misunderstood.
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