Latest / Magic Divorce Club Podcast / Ep 40: You're Not Too Much (And Neither Are Your Kids), with Caro Giles, Author of Unschooled

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Ep 40: You're Not Too Much (And Neither Are Your Kids), with Caro Giles, Author of Unschooled · Magic Divorce Club Podcast

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Magic Divorce Club podcast.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: This is your space to successfully navigate your divorce with confidence and create
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: a roadmap to the life of your dreams.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host Hannah Harvey,
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm the author of How to Divorce Sober and I have helped thousands of women
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: to process the trauma of divorce and step into an exciting future.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: Please like and subscribe because this really helps my little podcast to grow.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: And if you would like more from me,
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: you can subscribe at magicdivorceclub.substack.com for a host
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: of other support tools.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to the Magic Divorce Club podcast.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: And today I've got my beautiful friend Caro Giles on and she's going to talk to us
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: about her book Unsolved, which I have here.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: I folded over every page, so I don't know why I bothered.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: I just go through it all.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: But I did start using a pen.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: I was a bit precious to begin with.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, I can't because it's so beautiful.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: And then in the end, I was like, no, I need to know what it is.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: I think books should be written on.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think books are there to be like, you know, they're a friend, aren't they?
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: A book.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: You can do what you want with the book.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, well,
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm immediately giving it to another friend to read and then she can enjoy
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: the bits I liked.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: Good.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for sharing it.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: Well, not at all.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: So that brings me to what's going on with the book.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: How can I help you?
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: How can the community help you?
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so Unschooled,
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: which is this one, is my second memoir, After Twelve Moons, which was this one.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I think lots of your community will really engage with both books because you,
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: in your work,
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: really Think a lot about female identity and how our identity changes following
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: the end of a relationship and moving forward as a single person
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: and potentially moving forward into new relationships.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: And both of my memoirs cover all of those things.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I hope that my story will speak to lots of the people that you work with.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: But with Unschooled,
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: specifically that story is of how I and my family have been failed by
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: the education system.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: Two of my children,
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: I have four children,
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: two of them are autistic and have been unable to access education at school,
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: despite being really curious, bright, inquisitive children.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so I have spent many years fighting with the Education Authority,
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: with all sorts of horrible things.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: Institutions and still have failed to access education.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I've written on school to shine a light really on what that feels like
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: to be abandoned by the systems that should be in place to hold us,
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: particularly as a single parent carer.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I wrote it to kind of challenge some of the thinking around education.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'm also a trained teacher, so I understand what learning looks like in the classroom.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: But as a mother, I've really had to reframe what learning looks like for my kids.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: So Unschooled is all about that.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: And it's also there's a love story woven through it
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: because I met my boyfriend around the time I was writing the book.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so I wanted to explore how I could hold on to myself as a person beyond all of
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: the caring and all of the mothering.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a big theme throughout lots of my writing.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: Unschooled is a book that is aimed at many people who are on very low incomes.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: So unpaid carers, single parents and hardback books are notoriously expensive.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I've sold over 2000 copies of Unschooled, which is really amazing.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: But in order for the book to come out in paperback,
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: my publishers need me to shift a few more copies of the hardback.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I started a campaign this summer to try and sell 500, the remaining 500 copies of Unschooled.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm talking to lots of people to kind of spread the word
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: about why this book might be a story that would speak to them.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm sorry, and hopefully just trying to get the book out there a bit more widely.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's brilliant.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes, I don't know, as a species, it's like we need a challenge to get behind it.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: And that, it shouldn't be that way.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: But if you think about, I don't know why Race Across the World has come to mind.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: I love Race Across the World.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: I love it so much.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: And you see the kindness of strangers.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: And they get it when you're like, I need to get to this place because I'm doing a challenge.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: People don't go, is that weird?
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: Everything gets removed.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so, I don't know,
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: it just suddenly helped me jump into action in a way that I'm ashamed I hadn't
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: before.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas I'm like, oh my God, I'm going to get it.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I really want to give away five copies to women in the Magic Divorce Club.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: I have been telling people in the club about you because as you,
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure,
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: have experienced through connecting with people,
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: it's lots of women who are suddenly finding themselves single and then discovering
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: that their children are struggling as well.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I think...
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and it's mainly women who contact me,
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: unsurprisingly, because caring is such a heavily gendered issue.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I know, like, I got unschooled as a book deal with a small publisher.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't get a massive advance.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: It hasn't made me loads of money.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: But what has really made my life much richer is the way that the book has spoken to
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: so many people, both 12 Moons and Unschooled.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: I get messages every week from women who feel
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: People call me brave a lot and I write about being brave,
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: but I experience being brave as always feeling terrified at how vulnerable I feel as
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: a woman on her own, responsible for four children without an effective co-parent.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so on paper, I say brave, but inside it just feels terrifying.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that lots of women identify with that, the way they are forced...
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know, people will say, oh, I don't know how you do that.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: How do you raise four daughters?
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, it's kind of unhelpful when people say that because who else is doing it?
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: There is no one else.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: when your marriage ends and in my case,
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: there isn't really another parent around very much, then you're just the only one.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I have found online relationships, like I think we met online, didn't we Hannah?
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: They have been some of the most formative and supportive ones I've had since being on my own.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: And particularly if you're a single parent or a single parent carer,
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: often you are required to stay in the home.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's hard to go out and meet people.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's hard to find those people who can hold your hand.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so books have been a lifeline to me and the online community has.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: So I feel like the two of our The two of our worlds, Hannah,
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: can kind of converge,
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: hopefully,
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: to provide support for women like us who have experienced,
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: you know, trying to manage on our own and build new lives for ourselves.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: An observation I have for you, though,
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: that I feel,
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: I hope he takes a compliment,
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: is that I think you actively seek people in a way that I find terrifying.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know,
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: you're out there,
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: you're reading,
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: you're like taking in information in a way that I can sometimes get
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: a bit overwhelmed by that.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think part of your real gift is the fact that you can reach out to people
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: and you're not afraid to do that.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: And whether that's part of like advocating for your work or what, I don't know.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: But you're a real,
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: I almost feel like when I was reading the book,
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: like, There's islands everywhere in the world that you're talking about.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's almost like everyone's in their own little island.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like that with divorcing women as well.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like we're just over here going, shit,
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: I hope it looks all right on the outside because it feels bullshit on the inside.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: And then,
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: with the work that you're doing,
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: it's like you're connecting these dots and people are able to kind of come together.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah,
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: we're all talking about stuff where rather we wouldn't,
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: But at least we're doing it together.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, I think, sorry, I'm really croaky this morning.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: I think that speaking to the things that are really difficult,
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: like voicing the fear has been a really helpful thing for me.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: Also, when you talk about me reaching out a lot,
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: it's because I'm a massive extrovert,
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: but because of my children's disabilities and because I'm on my I have to stay in
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: the house a lot and I can't meet people a lot.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have that community of the school run around me.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: Often my autistic children can't tolerate certain environments where there are lots
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: of people where I would love to be.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: For example, recently I took my 16 year old to see Coldplay down at Wembling last summer.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: And like she still talks about it now because she says,
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: we never, I mean,
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: aside from the financial things, she just says, mum, we can never do this stuff.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: And it made me realise that there are real,
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: like her role as a sibling carer has really impacted upon the experiences we've had
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: as a family.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: So when I'm pouring my heart onto the page or doing podcasts or speaking to readers
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: or whatever it is,
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: or doing events, it's,
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: it's really,
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: it's a massive muscle in me that I really need to flex because so often I don't get
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: to do that.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's maybe why my writing is so emotive and so raw.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's because I feel quite constrained by my situation.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I need to express myself beyond all of the mothering,
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: which I think will be something lots of the women you work with identify with
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: as well.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's really easy to lose yourself, isn't it?
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: And all of the bureaucracy and the The loss of self that comes with the end of
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: a marriage is not to be sniffed at, is it?
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: You can feel a real sense of failure or a sense of doom or a sense of fear, all of that stuff.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: So I
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: think that being around other people and voicing all of those fears has been
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: an integral part of me personally.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: Building my life back up again and committing to making a life that is big and bold
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: for me and my kids,
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: despite life turning out completely differently to how I planned it.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I always think that when we have these fears,
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: the only way through like the bear hunt thing is that you've got to go through it.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I always think that shining a light in these shadows is how we get to the light
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: on the other side.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, at the time you're like, God, I don't want to go in there.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: What am I going to find?
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I think also, yeah.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: And if you look back at what you've done,
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: then you think, my God,
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: if I'd known it was going to be that hard, I don't know that I could have done it.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: But that's the brilliant thing about us is that we can However hard things are, we can do them.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: Whether or not we should have to hold as much as we're holding is another conversation.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: But we are resilient.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, even now I'm just, I'm about to, I've just bought a flat.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: And that's really exciting for me.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's been a dream of mine to move back to the city with my kids.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I just have managed to do that.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a tiny flat.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: And we will be very cozy in that flat, but it's in a nice area.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: But all of like, it's in a new country.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: I'm in Scotland now.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so the process of buying a house has been completely alien to me.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: And there have been so many times where I've thought, like, where is the grown up here?
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I still feel like a little girl trying to play at being a grown up.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know that that feeling ever goes away.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: But I got in my car the other day and I was like,
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: Fucking hell, I'm a grown up, I've got keys
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: to a car, I'm about to drive it.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: I know, it's wild, isn't it?
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I had to go,
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: I said to one of my kids,
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: I have to go and see the solicitor and sign the contracts or whatever.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, I just don't know whether I should go on my own or.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I'll see if my boyfriend wants to come.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm just buying the flat on my own.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not living with my boyfriend.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'm really independent.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: My daughter was like, Mum, you can just do this on your own.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's really girl boss.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's really giving girl boss.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, I don't feel like a girl boss.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: I feel terrified.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, I remember that.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: The first time I bought a house on my own, I got the keys.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I was right by the time, what's it called?
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: Tyneside Cinema in town and I just went and sat and bought myself a little coffee
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: and I was like, why don't I feel happy about this?
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: I just felt, it just seemed to make me feel more terrified and more alone.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah and that's a real thing that
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: happened and not everybody understands that so in
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: the process of trying to buy this flat I wrote a bit about it but I'm mainly reliant
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: on benefits because I'm a full-time carer and in the process of trying
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: to buy this flat and move changing countries they stopped my benefits completely
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: and it was a really terrifying six weeks when I had no income at all
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: and yeah it's like I just felt permanently sick I wasn't sleeping And
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: then eventually the benefits got reinstalled and I had an offer accepted on
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: the flat.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I just felt devastated rather than thinking, oh God, my offer's been accepted.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: I've got my finances have been restored.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: I just felt like curling up and crying.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember standing on a street with my boyfriend when the phone call came
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: through and he looked at me and I just looked dead behind the eyes because I felt
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: so, it had been so traumatic, the whole process.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: He said, but why aren't you happy?
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I couldn't explain why,
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: but later on I realised it was because I just felt so terrified
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: and I still didn't feel secure and I felt like it had been much too much stress
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: for one person and it took quite a lot of time to process all of that stress and
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: then realised that I could move forward.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: But sometimes those really big moments
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: that you feel you should be celebrating feel like something quite different and
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: that can be a surprise, can't it?
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, I totally relate to that.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's often like when I'm going through a stressful period,
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'll get like a really shit piece of news relating to my kids or my ex
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: or something like that.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: And then people will be like, why are you so calm?
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, don't worry, in about six weeks, I'll have a breakdown.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: But right now I have to keep it together because it's only me in this moment.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: I've got to...
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: I can't afford to not fall apart, but once it's settled and safe, I probably will then.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: I want to write about this because I was coming back from holiday a couple
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: of days ago and the house flat purchase completed while I was coming back.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I had never felt so anxious for such a long time.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: I thought I was going to have a panic attack.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it was just everything...
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: Catching up with me and a realisation that I had managed to survive a very,
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: very difficult period of my life.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: But I do really want to write about,
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: once I'm settled in the flat,
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: I am frightened that all of the past few years
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: of difficult stuff that's happened will somehow manifest itself in my body
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: and I'll get really,
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: really ill.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to really try to avoid that by processing stuff on the page and doing all
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: the other things I do to keep healthy.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: But it's a real...
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's a real thing,
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: as a single parent that you hold everything together,
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: but inevitably that has to all go somewhere.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I write about that quite a lot in Unschooled and Twelve Moons as well,
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: the way that I feel everything but have to hide those feelings quite a lot in order
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: to hold my family together.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: I don't always think it's healthy.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: I know and I think sometimes we're just so disassociated really from our bodies
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: and what's going on.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's like we can't.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: But I've learned over the years of these things happening that I will probably have
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: a month or two where I don't feel okay.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: And now I have compassion for myself.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: I can just hold myself in it.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a real skill, isn't it?
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: It really is.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't even know what the hell compassion was until like three years ago.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, I thought it was getting your nails done.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah and also because you're some you're someone like you're very empathic
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: and you are and I think you're really kind as well and so you're you are
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: a compassionate person and I think I'm the same as well but the idea
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: of being compassionate to myself and speaking kindly to like
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: the wounded person inside me is something that I still really struggle with
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: and my friends call me out on it kindly but I'm
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: but I'm very critical I'm I'm highly critical of myself um And I think
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: that just comes down to,
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: it comes down to having been heavily criticised in a past relationship
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: and having been heavily criticised within the health system and education system
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: and all of that gaslighting that's systemic and personal as well.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: But it also just comes down to the fact that we live in a society
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: where mothers are expected to fill in all the gaps and somehow be everything
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: to everyone.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: And somehow I've My writing really is about how do we create space for ourselves?
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: How do we reveal that woman behind the mother?
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: And that was an aspect of Unschooled that I really,
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: really enjoyed writing, actually, that story.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: I love that too.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so connected into that.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: I've got a whole section of questions about that.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, let's go.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: Ask me some questions.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: Shall we go?
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, let's do it.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: So you're talking about kind of connecting back with the woman.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: And just to say, like,
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: try not to cry,
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: like the stuff that you talk about, you know, with being the mother –
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: It was just so beautiful and it really put into words a lot of how I felt.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: Just trying to hold it together when these little bits of your body and your soul
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: and your heart are moving around and you're doing your best to keep them safe.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think I find that really hardest aspect of trying to.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I've had a boyfriend for two and a half years now,
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: having had six years on my own and being with my ex-husband for 20 years before
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: that.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I had like a long period of just not being with anybody that was really important
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: to me because I needed to work out where I'd gone wrong and I needed to kind
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: of rediscover myself.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: But when I met my boyfriend, then I found it really important.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: And it felt very wrong because my body was so used to an unhealthy relationship.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: So I came into this healthy relationship and it still didn't feel quite right
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: because I wasn't used to someone meeting needs in the right way,
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: someone being kind to me,
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: someone giving me space, someone being authentic, all of that stuff.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: So there was all of that.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: Having the relationship was really hard and both of us
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: at different points were terrified about whether or not we could be in
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: a relationship.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: But beyond that as well,
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: when I came out of being the woman and was jerked back into being the mother again,
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: I just found that transition between the two,
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: between being like putting in my beachy waves and my little dress and popping up
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: to Glasgow and being sexy and going to art galleries on the very rare occasions
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: when I had any childcare and then going back to full on 24-7 full-time caring
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: and educating.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: And like losing sight of the woman again,
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: but still having like everything was all burning inside me because I kind
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: of I'd reawakened the woman inside me.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I just found I just have found that to be the challenge of my life to try and
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: to try and hold on to that bit of myself and still be a present parent.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's been really hard.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like I experienced it as actual physical pain at times.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: Same.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: I still do.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's hard.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like that roller coaster of being.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, just one thing being reawakened and then being pulled back into it.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: You say it's like the all or nothing experience of like the transitions are so hard.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: Really difficult and I still find them difficult now.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I don't know whether that will ever get easier.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think it will.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think, I mean,
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: part of the reason that transitions are really hard for me and my family is
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: because some of my children are autistic.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so transitions and any kind of change is super, super hard.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: And my partner has been excellent at this,
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: but also has to Changed the way he is in order to meet their needs.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so everybody's kind of hypersensitive in my family.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: We're all trying to meet everybody's needs.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a lot.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: That's a lot as well.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: The blending bit is... Blending is hardcore.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody I speak to about blending just, yeah, says it's a very hard thing to do.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: One of my kids is like, Mum, we're literally not blending.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: He hasn't got any kids.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, yeah, but he's still trying to blend.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: He's a person.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: We're blending him in.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: She's like, that's not a blended family, mum.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, no, I think it is, babe.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: Brutal.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: It really is.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: And it's one of the most crucial aspects of it is how your new person connects in
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: with your children.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the moments that really got me,
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: I put a little love heart next to it in the book that was like,
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: You'd given him a whole list of things not to do and not to say and
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: then you were like I can't believe he got on the bus to come and see us.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: I know because there were just so many because new people are really difficult
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: for two of my children especially my two autistic kids and he just you know
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: when you try and plan everything really really carefully
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: and just think you'll be like this really sensible parent and Who'll just try
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: and be very careful when you're introducing a new partner and all this stuff.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the reality of my life was I was living in Northumberland at the time.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: I almost never had any childcare at all.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: So if he didn't just get on a bus when he's,
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: you know, at the last minute, we never would have seen each other.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: We just had to very quickly lean into just going for it.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so we just jumped on a bus and came down.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: I thought, my God, you know, my daughter, like, you can't touch her.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: She doesn't like anyone touching her hair.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: Make sure you're really nice about the cat.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: Make sure that you cook her some pasta at He was just like,
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: oh, this is just like, okay, this is intense.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: You know, he must have really been into me at that point because the list was long, Hannah.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he really, really liked you.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: And for a really long time,
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: his love language was cooking pasta for the children because he just knew that
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: that was just going to be like a really appreciated thing.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the,
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: my most scathing teenage daughter said,
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: you know, I actually do just love him for his spaghetti bolognese.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: So that has really sustained us.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: So thanks.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: You just need one thing that they get.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: I just started playing Animal Crossing.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yes.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a reason I shouldn't play this game because I definitely get addicted.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: But it's allowed me to connect in with my new stepchildren-to-be
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: because they all have little accounts and then they've all been playing two.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, oh, I've left something over there for you.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just like, you know, you just need one in and then you sort it.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think so what's been hard for my partner is he has never had any children.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: He's a bit older than me.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I've got four really, really different daughters.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so for each one, he's obviously, I mean, for a lot of people.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: And in fact, when I was dating, that was just too much.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: People were like, you are too much.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: You and your daughters are just going to be too much.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: To which I answer now, you just weren't enough, pal, but sure.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: I remember us having that conversation.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: I know, I remember sitting in my lounge.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, this guy!
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'd be like, I'm not enough.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: And you'd be like, I'm too much.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: And then we realised we were just exactly enough and anybody else just needed
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: to meet us where we were.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: But at the time when you're just starting to meet people,
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: then it's easy to think you're too much,
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: especially when you've got four bloody kids and you're
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: feeling everything.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: Part of that is us, isn't it?
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: Going, looking at ourselves from the outside in and going,
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: who the fuck would want to take that on?
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's how I felt.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't tell people I was sober until I'd...
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: You know, met them for quite some time until I realized that needs to be a prerequisite for me.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like, never mind not mentioning it.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's going to be at the very top.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like, it's not going to work.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a thing that is still an ongoing battle for me as someone trying to,
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: build a different kind of life is just voicing my needs and saying what I need
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: and feeling able to do that.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'm still really learning to do that and And that thing about me having four kids
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: and many men just,
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: not that I met many men,
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: but I know that many,
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: if I had met many men,
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: some of the men I met were like, you're too much, it's too much.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that lots of men would have been the same
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: because they had no imagination and were very selfish.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: But for this man, it isn't too much.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: One of my friends always says is it's actually a bloody gift.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: he should be so lucky to have a relationship with your four daughters and
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: to experience the richness of a big, beautiful, chaotic family.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: And that is how he experiences us.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: And that's not for everyone.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: But it's OK to it's OK to just kind of own that own that massive emotion,
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: that massive chaos, the wildness of having a big family with complicated needs.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: And we all do things differently and You know, it's a lovely thing.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's been a lovely thing for me.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so surely it's a lovely thing for someone else as well.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: But owning that has been quite a challenging thing because on paper, and,
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: I've been told by lots of people in different systems as well, you are too much.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: Your parenting is criticised.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: This is criticised.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: Your kids can't do this.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: And your children are failing because they can't go to school.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: There's so many negatives attached to the way I have had to...
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: Structure my life for my kids, that people really fail to see the beauty in it.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: And that's another thing that I've tried to do in Unschooled is whilst it's
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: a very political book,
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: it's a very raw and honest book about the failures of our education system.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's also to try and say, let's reframe what success is.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like for me, success is a child who is healthy and able to communicate her needs.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: It is not a child getting 10 GCSEs or going to university, although that is a form of success.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: But in Unschooled,
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: I try really hard to paint portraits of my children that I think lots
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: of other parents of neurodivergent kids will recognise as well and be inspired by
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: or feel supported by anybody's kids who need to do things a little bit differently.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: And that will be most people's kids, actually, because every child has complicated needs.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I think more and more.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: Children are struggling to fit into a mainstream education system because we're able
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: to identify that,
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: every child needs something different and it can't just be one big brushstroke,
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: you know?
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, totally.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_01: I loved that definition of success.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, yes, because it can, especially, you know, with...
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: We were brought up to be, let's keep the peace.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: We're going to get ourselves our family unit.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: We're going to stay in this place.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: And we tried for as long as we possibly can.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like most women do whatever they can before they choose leaving.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know what I mean?
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like we're not choosing that path because we're like, that looks fun.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: And also there's a huge societal,
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: I felt a huge societal pressure to stay married because And it's that fucking,
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: it's the vowel where you say in sickness and in health.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: And sickness is such a, can be used against you, I know now.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: And also not in sickness and in health to the point
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: that your own health is compromised and your own happiness is compromised.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: But I felt like a really firm grip on my shoulder when I was really wanting
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: to get out of my marriage.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: I really felt that I was being judged by society.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: In a way that surprises me now, because now I feel rebellious and joyful about that rebellion.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: But it was that the terror that I felt and the guilt I felt at the breakdown
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: of my marriage was real, actually.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if that was your experience as well, but I think, yeah, I just think I just think.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's a bit like when my kids can't go to school, they're told they've failed.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: I felt a bit like that when my marriage ended.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: Someone turned around to me,
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: I think I said it in 12 Moons,
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_01: and said, oh, I thought you were such a lovely family.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like...
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: We're an incredible family.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: Our family just looks different now.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: And that person was a nice friend, actually.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: It was just like the patriarchy being spewed out
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: because that's what we'd all been led to believe.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I still find,
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: as a woman living on her own with her children,
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: I still really feel like I come up against Sexism and on a daily basis,
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: the way that if I'm in a shop with my partner trying to buy something,
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: the shop person will talk to him.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I find that infuriating.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: If I'm trying to book someone to come and do some work in my house,
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: they'll charge me more because I'm a woman.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: You know, all of that.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: I hate all of that.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll rally against that every day.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes we don't even notice because it's so ingrained in like, this is just how we live.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I know.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: But I think having four daughters who are getting older and are savvy and political
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: and more educated perhaps in
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: ingrained patriarchal views and stuff is really helpful
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: because I think I learn a lot from them as well.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I try really hard to role model what I hope
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: they'll do when they're older.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: That's one of the reasons I try so hard to be brave,
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: but that is also quite a lot as well, quite a lot of responsibility.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: But you talk about that in the book,
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: like there's times when your youngest is scared to go to school and you're like,
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: I'm scared too.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to write a book and I'm falling apart at the seams.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: Let's just both be brave together.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted to make that point because I do think it's important to,
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: while we were talking earlier about the way we feel like we have to hold everything
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: in a lot of the time, but I also am a massive...
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: Fan of having a good cry in front of your kids and being really open
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: about your feelings in front of your kids because only because
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: because it's normally just me and the kids,
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_01: inevitably,
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_01: sometimes I will have a bad day or a bad hour and I will lose my shit
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: and I'll be exhausted and whatever.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: And and the kids have seen that lots of times.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: And the downside is that they worry about me a bit and they And they say,
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: it's not fair that you have to do all of this.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's not fair that you are the parent who is doing everything.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: And they see that unfairness.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: But also,
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: I hope it gives them permission to share how they feel as well and not to just try
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: and be brave for me.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: There are pros and cons.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I think because I am the only person with the kids,
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: I've tried to find a way to frame it as healthily as possible when I do lose my mind
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: a bit in front of them.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, always if I do have a cry,
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_01: it's an opportunity as well to have a conversation with them,
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: isn't it, about feelings in a way that I think is really, really useful.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: And always being mindful to communicate the why,
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: like what's going on for you,
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: because I think I have a memory of my mum crying and being like,
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: So obviously I grew up thinking I've got to make sure I better not cry in front
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: of my kids because I don't want them to feel that.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: But the reality was her friend had just died.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: So she can communicate that to me and be like, you know, it's okay to be sad about these things.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: And the same goes now, like don't have this...
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah,
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: we don't want to cry in front of them all of the time,
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: but it's okay as well to be like, I am not okay today.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sad about this.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's nothing to do with you.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's not your fault.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: I love you so much.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: and I've had times like the dog died and my daughter's the one who comforts me,
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: you know?
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: What happened?
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, he died and she just held me.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a lovely thing, isn't it?
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: I've learned through therapy that daily crying is actually a really healthy thing as well.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: It helps to lower your cortisol.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's a very rare day if I don't cry.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: I cry a lot.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: I quite often cry at the gym.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: Which is better because the kids aren't there, but also occasionally embarrassing.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: But anyway, I think it's fine.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: But I also like that whole narrative of women being too much,
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: women being hysterical, women being too emotional.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like I will die on the hill that, you know, tries to remedy that.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like I want my kids to know it's fine to be all those things.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_01: Even now my teenager, if she, she says, I cry nearly every day at school.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like,
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: In a really bad way she's like no I just feel stuff and then I cry
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_01: and I'm like that's great like it's fine to feel stuff and cry
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_01: and there's nothing wrong with you and no one can tell you that you're too much
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: because you do that actually if you look at all the people often men
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_01: and often middle-aged men as well who never cry who find it really really hard
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: to emote who are desperate to kind of understand how they feel and to Be able
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: to be more vulnerable than they are.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_01: I would rather be this side of the spectrum where I'm kind of weeping every day and
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: at least I've kind of got a healthy,
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_01: healthy knowledge of how I'm feeling and what that means.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah,
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: I think any single,
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: single parents who are sitting out there feeling bad about sharing,
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: showing their true self in front of their kids can just be really,
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: really kind to themselves and know that,
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: you know, there are ways to frame it that can be really supportive.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: For your children,
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: actually,
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_01: and give them permission to feel what they want to feel and also to give,
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_01: particularly for my kids who are autistic,
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: they find it really hard to recognise how they feel and to give a language to it.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_01: So all of this stuff is really, really healthy and helpful, I think.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I agree.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: Definitely.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: So one thing I wanted to touch on is a lot of women who I speak to in one to ones
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: and in the group sessions are struggling with advocating for themselves.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, you talk a lot about trust and being brave.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: But
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: There's this issue where their children are presenting differently in different places.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: So dad is seeing a completely different version or so they say.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: And then it's falling to blame being put on the mother.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I know that you've experienced this and I don't know if you've got any sort
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: of ideas for how to.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I've experienced that extensively and I write about that in both of my books.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so that.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_01: That's been one of the hardest things I've managed when I've been extricating myself
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: from my marriage.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: There are things I do differently now,
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_01: but it's easy with the benefit of hindsight, isn't it, to say that.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think what I would always do,
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_01: I was unfortunate with some legal representatives that I met who did not believe me.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: That was really problematic.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: That's a child FaceTiming me.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_01: I've got my history thing on.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_01: Hang on, I'm going to go back.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, I got disturbed.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I wasn't believed by legal representatives and that was really problematic.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: So the first thing is if you need any legal representation to find someone
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: who will listen to you.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: I also think now I should have taken...
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: A friend,
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: an ally with me to more meetings because when I'm angry,
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: which I frequently was in some of these meetings, I cry.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: And when that happens, then people begin to think you're less plausible.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: The whole patriarchy kicks in.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think if I'd done lots of these meetings again,
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_01: I would have had someone with me and felt able to do that.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: Just to feel supported.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: So do always do that.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_01: I have a huge account of emails and notes I've made, things I've recorded.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I advise people to do that if they need to.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_01: So they've got evidence,
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: but that can be really hard to do in the middle of everything else as well.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: So again, if you haven't done that, then try not to beat yourself up.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: But I think...
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_01: I think the most important thing for me to do was to recognise
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: when advocating became too much,
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_01: when it was better for me to step back and make that choice for my family.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes you'll have to go into battle.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_01: And when you have to do that,
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_01: then just make sure you are held by the people who love you as much as you can be.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_01: And don't be afraid to ask for that help as well.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_01: There's no shame in In needing support,
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_01: like getting divorced or sorting out childcare arrangements,
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: it's highly emotive, really upsetting.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's never going to be easy.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_01: I won't go into details about my divorce,
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_01: but needless to say,
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_01: it has been toxic and really,
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_01: really, really difficult to manage and we don't really communicate anymore.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: But I would always recommend just surrounding yourself with people who believe you,
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_01: because the hardest thing I found throughout trying to access education for my kids,
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_01: trying to sort out the divorce,
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_01: all of that stuff, the hardest thing for me was not being believed.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_01: And not being heard.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_01: And that really had a detrimental effect on my mental health, I think.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_01: So it's just important to make sure you're surrounded by people who understand your narrative.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I would go as far to
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_00: say is,
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_00: sorry, Gary, I would go as far to say is not just not believed, but blamed as well.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I write a lot about parent blame.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_01: Because sometimes people close to you who have been close to you will want
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_01: to hurt you and will not behave with integrity.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_01: And that can be really damaging with regards to advocating for your children
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: and advocating for yourself.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_01: The most important thing I have learned is to make sure you surround yourselves
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_01: with people who will hear you and who will fight to the end for you.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think the point I was going to make just earlier was you might be surprised by
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: who those people are, because when your marriage ends.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_01: Your friends will fall away potentially as well.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_01: Your family might fall away as well.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a really brutal aspect of a marriage ending is that people pick
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_01: a team sometimes or they create their own narrative that is nothing like
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_01: the narrative that is the one that you experience.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_01: It may take a time to build that little team around you and it may only be one
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_01: or two people, but gradually more people will come and it will all be okay.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: But certainly the group that surrounds me now is very different to the group
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_01: that surrounded me when I was married,
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_01: partly because I'm just a really different person and I've grown into myself
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: and I'm much more, I'm much bolder, I think, in voicing my needs.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_01: But it can be very hard,
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_01: can't it, at that early stage when you're trying, when people are full of judgment.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes it comes from a good place, but often it's really unhelpful.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I think you have to be quite strict about who you allow into your world at
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_01: that time because you're really vulnerable at that point.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like the big protective bubble around the things that really matter is so important.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I found as well a lot of needing to, I talk about cutting the cord.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I know.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_01: You sent me an amazing meditation that I used.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_01: It was really helpful.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, good.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: Well, people have used that same meditation for whole groups.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_00: like you were saying about like the family that used to be your family and then all
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_00: of a sudden just nothing.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_00: It can be, you know, a whole grief process in itself.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_00: Letting go of the people around the marriage.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so they've used this cutting the cord technique,
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_00: even for like extended family,
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_00: just to help lighten that burden that you feel emotionally.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I think that's really true.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: And in Unschooled,
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_01: I write a lot about the village because I talk about the loss of village that occurs
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_01: when your child can't access school.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_01: As well as the loss of village that occurs when your marriage ends, actually.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I talk about how I've tried to rebuild different villages.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_01: Often they've been online communities or whatever,
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: but all of them are people who you can,
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: I think the best way to describe these people are the people that you meet
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: and you straight away cut the bullshit and you're straight into the deep stuff.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like they're the people that I need on my team.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_01: So there are some people, I know lots of mums now whose kids can't go to school.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_01: And as soon as I see them,
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_01: I know I haven't got to explain why my life looks like a hot mess sometimes
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: because they're like, that's our life too.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's good.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_01: What will we talk about?
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, my God.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, let's talk about, you know.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_01: Being the woman.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_01: Really, really quick.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, let's talk about being the woman.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_01: And they're the people you want on your team.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_01: You don't want the people you have to have small talk with
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_01: because you haven't got time for small talk when you're a single parent.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_01: I've got 30 minutes max.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_00: Let's get to it.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, let's go.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_00: With that in mind, my darling, I will let you go.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_00: And so where shall people buy their copies of Unschooled?
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_01: So you can buy Unschooled anyway.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_01: You can buy it.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_01: You can order it from your local bookshop.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_01: You can buy it on Amazon.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_01: You can buy it anywhere.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_01: If you are someone who can't afford to buy hardbacks and that is lots
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_01: of single parents, I know, which is why I'm doing this campaign.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_01: You can go to your local library and request that they Stock Unschooled.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_01: And they will put it on a list and they will buy it.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_01: So that's another really great way you can support my work.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_01: Same for 12 Moons as well.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to recommend 12 Moons while I'm talking to you, Hannah,
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_01: because I think for people who are in the early stages of separating,
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_01: that's what 12 Moons is about.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_01: So that might be a real good winner for you.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_01: That's already out in paperback and it's available in lots of libraries.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_01: So give that a go.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_01: But with Unschooled, if you can buy it, I'd be grateful.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_01: Share it with people whose kids are struggling at school.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_01: Share it with women who are trying...
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_01: To have a sexy new life beyond all of the mothering.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_01: Share it with anybody who wants to read about the education system.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_01: It kind of covers lots of different things.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_01: And if you read it and you love it,
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_01: please review it or share it on social media so that we can get this book out
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_01: into paperback.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_00: Amazing.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_00: And like I said before, I'm going to be giving away five copies.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I'll do a little Instagram post to kind of help spread the word.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_00: Incredible.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I will send out book plates to those five people.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_01: Winners as well.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_01: Because if I can just show you really quickly, are they going to see this or not, Hannah?
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_01: Just want them to know how beautiful that bit is that my daughter designed.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_01: yeah, yeah.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_01: So it's set in between Northumberland and Glasgow, the book.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_01: And my daughter, Emmy, in the book can't speak very often.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_01: She's mute.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so in order to get her voice onto the page, she designed the end papers for the book.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like beautiful waves and sand that she's done in watercolours.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_01: So every book is just so beautiful as well.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_01: So if you get a heart back, then you're lucky.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I agree.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I will also share the link to our conversation,
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: which is the first time we ever met and spoke.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yes.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_00: About 12 moons.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_00: I was so nervous that day.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I was a bit nervous too.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_01: That was so fun.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, put the link up.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'd like to listen to that again.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_01: That'd be really funny to see how much we've changed things then, wouldn't it?
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_00: So much has happened, Hannah.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_00: So much.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for sharing all of that with us, for writing your beautiful book.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's amazing.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_00: I can't wait for everybody in the community to read it and let us know how they find it.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, love.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_01: And please do any of your clients, any of your ladies want to be in touch with me.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_01: I'm on Instagram and on Substack and I always love to hear from readers.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_01: And lots of my content is about trying to live this wild life beyond marriage
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_01: and all the rest of it.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_01: So I think you'll like some of the other stuff I write as well.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_01: I definitely will.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, you're the reason I got in the North Sea.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, good.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_01: Do you still swim in the North?
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah, do you still do all your North Sea swimming?
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: Well, what days?
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_00: I've been in once this week.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's good, that's very good.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_01: I swim in a lock now because I don't live near the sea, but that's also very nice.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, lovely.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_00: Sea creatures, love that.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_00: All right, my darling, thank you so much.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for listening and if you could subscribe and leave a review
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_00: that would be amazing.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_00: For all of your tips and tools head over to magicdivorceclub.substack.com
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_00: and you can find everything that you need there.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_00: You've got this and I've got you.