Latest / Karl and Crew / The Reliability of the Bible Q&A with J. Warner Wallace

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The Reliability of the Bible Q&A with J. Warner Wallace · Karl and Crew

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  S1: Broadcasting from Chicago, across North America and beyond its cast
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  S1: and crew. Come as you are an experienced guide. Overcome
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  S1: what seems impossible and live. As you never imagined. Start
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  S1: your morning with a laugh.
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  S2: Practical from the Bible. Tips and tricks to kill. Not tricks,
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  S2: but tips and tricks.
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  S3: Tips and tricks to kill. Tips and tricks.
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  S1: Delivering the truth daily.
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  S4: All of my attempts to, you know, prop myself up
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  S4: with achievement in good works. But God wasn't impressed by that.
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  S4: Even if other people were.
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  S2: The gospel changes everything.
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  S5: Freedom in Christ. Man, it's like that backpack of cement
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  S5: just falling to the ground.
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  S1: Now, from the call of Hope Studios, this is Carl
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  S1: and crew. It's Carl and crew. We are in our
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  S1: final hour of Ask the Experts. Got Jay Warner Wallace here.
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  S1: How you doing? Jay Warner.
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  S6: Doing. Well. This is the last hour. Wow. I feel
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  S6: like this is. I'm.
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  S1: You're tapping it. You're tapping it, and. Yeah, we are.
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  S1: We are really honored to have you with us here.
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  S1: All right, my man, let's build some context. Give us
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  S1: your story. You were. You were out there far from God,
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  S1: weren't you?
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  S6: Yeah, and I was not really interested. I didn't have
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  S6: anybody in my family who were Christians, and I. And
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  S6: I think it was, uh, if I'm sadly to hate
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  S6: to admit this, but the people I knew that were
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  S6: Christians at my job, um, as a detective were, uh, interestingly,
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  S6: not evidential about their Christian views. Well, while and of course,
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  S6: our job requires us to be evidential about everything else.
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  S6: So these are guys who can make a case for
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  S6: so many different bad guys we were trying to to
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  S6: catch yet. But if you asked them, well, can you
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  S6: make a case for this? They seem like that. Even
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  S6: the idea seemed foreign, like this is not something they
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  S6: would need to make a case for. And I was
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  S6: somebody who said, look, if you can't make a case
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  S6: for it, then I'm not interested, right? Just. It's silly.
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  S6: What do you.
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  S1: Think that.
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  S6: Was? And mock those guys.
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  S1: Why do you think that was? Why did they not
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  S1: see the congruency of their faith with their cold case
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  S1: detective work?
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  S6: Well, I think a lot of it is, um, if
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  S6: you if you look at Scripture, there's and I see
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  S6: this all around the country that if you ask people,
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  S6: why are you a Christian? The top three answers you're
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  S6: going to get are number one, I was raised as
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  S6: a Christian. My family are Christians. My parents were Christians.
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  S6: That's the most popular answer you're going to get. Number
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  S6: two is going to be something along the lines of,
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  S6: I had an experience. And that experience confirmed for me
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  S6: that this is true. It could be that you had
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  S6: a prayer that was answered, something that would seem. There's
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  S6: no way the odds of this happening without God could
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  S6: be such that statistically improbable. So therefore, there's a God.
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  S6: These are the top two answers you're going to get. Now,
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  S6: I didn't trust those top two answers. Number one, because
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  S6: I have all atheists in my family. But my dad remarried.
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  S6: And when he remarried, he married somebody who was, uh,
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  S6: who became a member of the LDS church. And, and
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  S6: so the question if you ask people in the LDS church,
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  S6: why are you. Why did you become a mormon back
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  S6: in the day? That's what they would call themselves. Um,
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  S6: they would say, well, number one, I was raised this
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  S6: way or two, I had an experience that demonstrated this
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  S6: is true. Now, I'll just tell you both worldviews cannot
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  S6: be true because we as Christians would say we believe
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  S6: in the triune nature of God. And that is a
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  S6: dividing line between us and members of the LDS church.
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  S6: Both of us could be wrong, or one of us
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  S6: could be right, but we both can't be right. So
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  S6: whatever approach we're taking as Christians, if it can be
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  S6: taken by every other theistic group, including Hindus and Buddhists
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  S6: and whatever, because that's what all people say. I was
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  S6: raised this way or I hadn't experienced that. No, we
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  S6: have an opportunity here as Christians to examine whether or
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  S6: not the stuff that's in the Gospels actually occurred in
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  S6: the first century, because if it did, it changes everything,
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  S6: and it demonstrates that Christianity is true.
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  S1: J Warner Wallace is our guest. You've got questions for him.
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  S1: He's got answers. We've got a full hour and I'm
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  S1: asking you to light it up. 800 555 7898, 805, 55, 78, 98.
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  S1: What did you discover that caused you to move from
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  S1: ambivalent spiritually to believing that Jesus was not only a
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  S1: real living person, but the Son of God? That's. Those
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  S1: are three huge steps there. Jay Warner.
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  S6: Yeah. Well, what started the whole investigation for me? You know,
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  S6: I walked into a church with my wife because I
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  S6: was more than happy to go to church. If it's
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  S6: kind of like if your wife said, hey, I want
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  S6: to go see this movie. You don't want to see
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  S6: the movie, but you're going to go because you love
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  S6: your spouse. Same is true for me. Restaurants are that way.
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  S6: So I put it off as long as I could.
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  S6: And then at some point she finally said, let's go tomorrow. Okay, great.
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  S6: So we're in this big church. And the pastor said
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  S6: that Jesus was the smartest man who ever lived. And
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  S6: I just wanted to see what was so smart about Jesus.
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  S6: So I bought a very inexpensive $6 Pew Bible, and
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  S6: I started reading through it and not really thinking. I mean,
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  S6: I was familiar as a kid with stories about Jesus,
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  S6: but I was. I was shocked to see in the
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  S6: Gospels that it was really an historical narrative, rather than
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  S6: simply a collection of wise wisdom statements, because he kind
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  S6: of made it sound like that was what it was
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  S6: going to be. But of course, they're not just a
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  S6: set of proverbs from Jesus. It's it's actually an account.
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  S6: And when you read the accounts, they have variations like
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  S6: they aren't exactly the same. And when I saw that,
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  S6: I said, oh, that's exactly what you experience. If you
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  S6: interview a number of witnesses on any event, if it's
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  S6: a crime that occurred two hours ago, you will not
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  S6: get four witnesses who agree on everything or who even
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  S6: describe it the same way. And so when I saw
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  S6: that variation, it provoked me to say, wow, I wonder
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  S6: if you could test this account. And we have a
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  S6: process in place by which we test accounts. It's the
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  S6: same criteria, probably in every state in America. It's in
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  S6: the jury instructions. And so I simply applied that template
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  S6: to the Gospels to see if what they were saying
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  S6: about Jesus was true. Now look, the Gospels include supernatural claims,
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  S6: and for me, that was the deal breaker. So I
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  S6: had to jump that that that gap first. And what
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  S6: I mean is could is I believed that anything I
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  S6: saw in the universe and anything I read in history
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  S6: simply had to be explained by space, time, matter, physics
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  S6: and chemistry. Nothing supernatural should be added to the account
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  S6: or the explanation because I was a very committed, uh,
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  S6: philosophical naturalist. And so I had to first ask myself, well,
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  S6: I believed in Big Bang cosmology, and that's still the the,
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  S6: the most popular amongst astrophysicists. It's called the standard cosmological model.
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  S6: And for a reason. Because people believe, scientists believe that
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  S6: everything in the universe, all space, time and matter came
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  S6: into existence from nothing like what's before. Space time and
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  S6: matter is a mystery. And that means that if there's
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  S6: a cause outside of space, time and matter, we ought
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  S6: to be open to the fact that there might be
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  S6: something running the universe outside of physics and chemistry. And
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  S6: if that's the case, then we should have an open
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  S6: hand when we read about anything supernatural in the Gospels.
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  S6: And so that that kind of helped me to at
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  S6: least say I'm not going to disqualify them immediately. Let's
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  S6: see how well they line up and all the other
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  S6: criteria we would apply to an eyewitness, and then we'll
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  S6: make a decision about the miraculous stuff. And of course,
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  S6: the most important miracle in Scripture is the resurrection. Because
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  S6: if that's true, then Jesus is in an entirely different category.
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  S6: And that's that's what I needed to find out.
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  S1: J Warner Wallace is our guest right now. Now here's
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  S1: what happens. Invariably, we get a little bit warmed up,
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  S1: and then we get crushed with so many phone calls,
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  S1: we can't get them all. So I'm asking you right
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  S1: now to prime the pump of your mind and ask
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  S1: the Lord. Lord, what would you have me ask? What
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  S1: have I wondered about? Verification? Validation? Confirmation? Any questions about
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  S1: as I'm going to ask J. Manasa Warner here in
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  S1: a moment about the deity of Jesus. How can we
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  S1: know this? Give us a call right now. Or you
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  S1: can text in your question (800) 555-7898. We got him here
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  S1: for an hour and it is time right now. Get
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  S1: those questions in here. 800 555 7898. It's been months
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  S1: ago now, but I want to go back there. Jay Warner,
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  S1: we had a great discussion about the evidence for the
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  S1: actual resurrection of the dead of our Savior, Jesus Christ.
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  S1: What do you look at?
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  S6: Well, we're looking at trying to figure out what is
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  S6: the best inference from the evidence we do have. And
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  S6: it's always about inferences from evidence. And that process is
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  S6: called abductive reasoning. Right. So what we do is we
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  S6: say okay, what is what do we have? Evidentially. Well,
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  S6: as an atheist, I would have given you very minimal criteria.
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  S6: I might have said, well, I believe that he lived.
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  S6: I don't think there's I'm not one of these Jesus
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  S6: Mithras who thinks he didn't even live. Um, and I
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  S6: would have said, you know, the fact that he was
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  S6: crucified on a cross in the first century to me
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  S6: does not. I mean, that's supported well enough by manuscript
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  S6: evidence in history. I don't have a problem with that.
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  S6: I would have said there's probably an empty tomb, because
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  S6: that's why this controversy exists to begin with. They couldn't
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  S6: find the body. But and I would have said also
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  S6: that there were a bunch of people who said they saw, um, Jesus.
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  S6: But this does not mean that he actually was risen
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  S6: from the grave, just that they made this claim. And
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  S6: that's probably where I would have stopped. But you have
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  S6: to explain those four data points, and I would have
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  S6: given you maybe one of 6 or 7 non-Christian explanations.
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  S6: Either they're lying about it or they imagined it, or
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  S6: there was an imposter who stood in for Jesus. Or
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  S6: maybe he didn't really die on the cross. Or maybe
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  S6: somebody who had influence was influencing these people to believe
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  S6: something that wasn't true. I mean, I would have given
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  S6: you a number of different answers, but so I simply
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  S6: put those answers on a piece of paper and run
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  S6: through them and ask yourself, does this really explain the data?
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  S6: And it turns out that the best explanation of the
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  S6: data is the Christian explanation. But of course, it also
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  S6: has a weakness because every explanation has a weakness. Even
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  S6: the true explanation of who did a murder. When you
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  S6: get in front of a jury, I know the case's weaknesses.
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  S6: Every case has weaknesses, and there's a weakness in the
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  S6: Christian case, and it is that it requires a supernatural resurrection.
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  S6: But again, you can't make that the deal killer, because
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  S6: that's the thing you're investigating. You're investigating. This point is
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  S6: a resurrection, a reasonable inference from evidence. You can't start
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  S6: by saying, nope, a resurrection is never a reasonable inference,
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  S6: because that's the bias that will keep you from. It's
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  S6: like coming into a crime scene and saying, well, um,
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  S6: this is a woman who's dead. Oh, it's got to
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  S6: be her husband. Well, it often is her husband, but
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  S6: it doesn't mean you start there, because if you do,
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  S6: you're liable to eliminate all the other potential suspects. So
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  S6: you have to start with an open hand. But, you know,
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  S6: what's interesting to me is that I think when we
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  S6: talk about questions that are out there that people have, um,
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  S6: I think it's moving away from, well, what's the evidence
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  S6: for this? Because that's a very boomer kind of a
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  S6: question if you think about it.
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  S1: Yeah.
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  S6: And I'm and I'm a boomer, so I get it.
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  S1: Yeah.
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  S6: Um, but my son, who's in a different generation, and
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  S6: my grandkids who are in different generation as alphas, right.
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  S6: Gen Alpha. Okay. So their questions are going to be different.
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  S6: Let me tell you. They're going to be they're going
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  S6: to be not as it is it true Evidentially is
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  S6: it good enough for me to care about? Is it good?
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  S6: Does it do anything that any other worldview wouldn't do?
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  S6: Does it make claims that are true about who I am?
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  S6: And so I think when I see that people are
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  S6: not flourishing right now in a culture, it's largely, uh,
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  S6: not a surprise seems to be parallel to the fact
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  S6: that Christianity is diminished. That is no longer the influence
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  S6: on culture it used to be. And it's in that
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  S6: that's why we see so much cell phone use or
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  S6: smartphone use and the increase in in anxiety and depression
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  S6: and all the statistics that are going in the wrong direction. Well,
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  S6: it's because we've forgotten who we are in Christ because
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  S6: we used to actually understand that. We used to actually
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  S6: be able to say that. And now we're searching for
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  S6: who are we relative to other humans that I'm watching
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  S6: on social media? That is a very dangerous game to play.
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  S6: And so I think in the end, the great thing
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  S6: about Christianity, it's not only true, it's actually good for
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  S6: you because it can recenter and reorder your life and
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  S6: put worship back where it belongs, because often what we
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  S6: put our identity in is the stuff we are fascinated with,
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  S6: that we are grateful for, that we worship, that we
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  S6: think is worthy of our worship. And those are the
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  S6: points that we say, okay, I'm one of those. Often
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  S6: you're watching right now, it's politics. We are far more
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  S6: likely right now in the country to be polarized and
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  S6: divided over an identity identity we choose to place in
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  S6: our political party than our. And this is true for
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  S6: Christians than in the Savior. And you can look at
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  S6: Christian Scripture. You'll see that the word Christians only used
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  S6: a few times in all the New Testament, what Paul
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  S6: and John are far more likely to describe as a
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  S6: Christian is somebody who is in Christ or in him.
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  S6: And that's really where our identity needs to be, because
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  S6: you can make a strong case that if you can
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  S6: call yourself a Christian, but your identity is not grounded
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  S6: and rooted in Christ, you may not be a Christian
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  S6: at all.
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  S3: Yeah.
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  S1: J Warner Wallace, our guest. It is time to get
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  S1: in your questions. 800 555 7898 800 555 7898 when
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  S1: we get back. First Corinthians chapter 15 J. Warner deals
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  S1: with Paul's citation that 500 people, he claimed, saw the
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  S1: resurrection of Christ. How could have that been self-sabotaging to
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  S1: the entire gospel? And what do you discover that gives
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  S1: us hope there? That question and yours coming up 800
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  S1: 555 7898.
• 13:49
  S7: When you don't know who's better to ask than an expert.
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  S7: You're listening to Carl and crew.
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  S1: Questions pouring in right now. 800 555 7898 our expert J. Warner. Wallace.
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  S1: Love this guy. I love you, bro. You're bringing the
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  S1: heat here. All right, first Corinthians 15. This to me
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  S1: is one of the most epic passages, because Paul would
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  S1: have been doing the proverbial self sabotage to claim there's
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  S1: 500 that witness his resurrection with the dating of that
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  S1: of that letter. Explain that. And why is that such
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  S1: an important passage of Scripture?
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  S6: Well, a couple things. Number one, it's early. Uh, it's
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  S6: early in about mid first century is when Paul is
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  S6: writing this letter to the Corinthians, which is makes sense, right?
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  S6: Because it's in what I love about Paul, by the way,
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  S6: is that not only does he write these letters, but
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  S6: when he writes to the Corinthian church here, he includes
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  S6: a passage from the Gospel of Luke when describing to
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  S6: them how to do the Lord's Supper. And he had
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  S6: taught that to them about 2 or 3 years prior
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  S6: to this letter. So this letter is probably around 53, 54.
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  S6: He probably planted the Corinthian, Corinthian church around 51, and
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  S6: he's already quoting Luke's gospel to them and how they
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  S6: should do the Lord's Supper, which means that Luke's gospel
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  S6: is earlier, which means we have people who are writing
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  S6: about Jesus. Now, Luke is not an eyewitness. Remember, he
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  S6: writes the book of acts, but he's Paul's associate in
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  S6: the book of acts. He was present for that, and
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  S6: he had access to all the eyewitnesses. And that's what
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  S6: he says in the first chapter of his gospel that
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  S6: he's speaking to the eyewitnesses, eyewitnesses, eyewitnesses, eyewitnesses. Now, Paul
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  S6: is mentioning there were 500 who were most of whom
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  S6: were still alive, which means there's at least 251 that
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  S6: are still around and could be interviewed. And he's writing
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  S6: this mid-century at a time when you could be challenged
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  S6: on this. This is a bold claim because it's risky,
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  S6: because you could easily have somebody say, well, you know what?
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  S6: I actually tried to find those witnesses and there were none. Now,
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  S6: remember also that Paul is not himself a he's like
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  S6: Luke in the sense that he gets to see Jesus.
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  S6: Post-resurrection that's believe me. I'm sure that was compelling enough
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  S6: for him to be okay. I'm in. Obviously it was,
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  S6: but he he doesn't know. He has to go back
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  S6: and hear from Jesus or from those who saw Jesus. Well,
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  S6: what happened while Jesus was alive? Because he didn't know him. When?
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  S6: When Jesus was alive. At least what? Not to our knowledge.
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  S6: I'm sure he probably knew of him, but he didn't
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  S6: have the data. So what does he say here? I
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  S6: delivered to you as of first importance what I also received.
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  S6: He may have received that from Jesus himself. He may
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  S6: have received that from the people who knew Jesus, that
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  S6: Christ died for our sins. Now remember, to see him
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  S6: on the road to Damascus is very different than to
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  S6: understand all of the theological dots that have to be connected.
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  S6: And he says he died for our sins in accordance
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  S6: with the Scripture. He was buried. These are the critical
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  S6: data points. And hear me. This is the earliest creed
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  S6: of the church within the lifetime of eyewitnesses, in which
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  S6: the statement is being made publicly in a way that
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  S6: you could check, because there are still apparently people who
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  S6: saw this, that he was buried, raised on the third day,
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  S6: and that he appeared to Cephas and then to the 12.
• 16:55
  S6: And then he appeared to more than 500 brothers at
• 16:58
  S6: one time, most of whom are still alive, though some
• 17:00
  S6: have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, by the way. Great.
• 17:04
  S6: You know, I'm just reading through John with my family. Uh,
• 17:07
  S6: we do a devotional every morning, three verses, and we're
• 17:09
  S6: in that part where the brothers of Jesus want Jesus
• 17:12
  S6: to go into the Festival of Booths, right in Jerusalem.
• 17:15
  S6: And he's like, not my time yet, guys. And it
• 17:17
  S6: says in there, John says that those brothers were not believers.
• 17:21
  S1: No.
• 17:22
  S6: Well, think about those brothers. Okay. Um, they became believers. Uh,
• 17:27
  S6: as a matter of fact. Two James and Jude wrote
• 17:30
  S6: books of the Bible. It's. And tradition has that Simon. Uh,
• 17:34
  S6: a third became a leader in the church. Um, we
• 17:37
  S6: have good reason to believe that all four became brothers.
• 17:41
  S6: Became believers, rather. And. But when did that happen? And
• 17:43
  S6: by the way, it wasn't during Jesus's lifetime, apparently because
• 17:47
  S6: at the cross Jesus says, Mary, this is your son,
• 17:50
  S6: who none of his brothers, John, his brothers, were not
• 17:54
  S6: yet believers. Yet they were when? Right here, right here
• 17:59
  S6: in this verse, he appeared to James. And from that
• 18:03
  S6: point on, James was in. He led the biggest church
• 18:06
  S6: in Jerusalem of all Christians in the first century, died
• 18:10
  S6: as the leader of that church. So what changed him?
• 18:14
  S6: This seeing the risen Christ, a guy like James, who
• 18:18
  S6: was not a believer before, ends up becoming a leader
• 18:21
  S6: of the church. And by the way, who has most
• 18:23
  S6: authority in the book of acts? Who does Paul and
• 18:25
  S6: Peter go back to to say, well, what do you
• 18:27
  S6: think it's James? Yeah. So this just gives us hope that. Yep.
• 18:30
  S6: You probably have people in your life right now who
• 18:32
  S6: you're thinking, wow, what's it going to take in?
• 18:35
  S1: The interesting thing about this passage is that as Paul
• 18:38
  S1: is writing this, he's it's just a it's a throw in.
• 18:42
  S1: And then he appeared to more than 500 brothers. It's
• 18:44
  S1: not like he's not even trying to build a case.
• 18:48
  S1: He's just writing a letter. He's just saying, this is
• 18:50
  S1: matter of fact.
• 18:52
  S6: Right? He's just. He is just. In other words, you
• 18:54
  S6: could you could easily. What we always say when you're
• 18:56
  S6: working in investigations like this and you're reading a statement
• 18:59
  S6: from the past, is ask yourself like, what are the
• 19:02
  S6: optional words? What are the adjectives and adverbs? Those are
• 19:04
  S6: important because you don't need to use those if you're
• 19:06
  S6: using them. It's telling me something. How are you using pronouns?
• 19:09
  S6: How are you compressing time? How are you expanding time?
• 19:11
  S6: What's your verb tenses? These are things we look at
• 19:13
  S6: in forensic statement analysis, and we always ask this question.
• 19:16
  S6: Given all the ways you could have said this, why
• 19:19
  S6: are you saying it this way? He could have led
• 19:22
  S6: with that. He could have said, you know, guys, we
• 19:24
  S6: got lots of living witnesses here. You know, he's not
• 19:26
  S6: doing that.
• 19:26
  S1: No.
• 19:27
  S6: He's simply going down the order in which Jesus appeared
• 19:30
  S6: to people, and he gets to himself and he says.
• 19:34
  S1: The least.
• 19:35
  S6: Last of all, as to one untimely, why is he
• 19:37
  S6: untimely born? Well, I think what really means is he
• 19:40
  S6: wishes he was part of that group.
• 19:41
  S1: Yes he does. Yes, he.
• 19:43
  S6: Comes to life as spiritually in an untimely way.
• 19:46
  S1: Well, I think and I think he's saying, man here,
• 19:49
  S1: you know, I'm Tribe of Benjamin, circumcised the eighth day. Man,
• 19:52
  S1: I wasn't in the stream that got to see this
• 19:54
  S1: whole thing, right? It's just so cool. Okay. J. Warner Wallace,
• 19:58
  S1: our guest right now. Get your questions in (800) 555-7898. All right.
• 20:03
  S1: We're going to have to go lightning round here. J
• 20:05
  S1: Warner they're starting to really come in. 800 555 7898
• 20:09
  S1: somebody texted in. Is there a best Scripture verse or
• 20:12
  S1: messages to share with non-believers. And it kind of parallels
• 20:15
  S1: with what Steven, first time caller in Illinois is saying.
• 20:20
  S1: What's your question, Steven?
• 20:23
  S8: Yes. My question is that if I if I am
• 20:27
  S8: a Christian, like the detectives, former colleagues who have faith
• 20:31
  S8: and belief, but not I don't carry around an evidential
• 20:35
  S8: playbook to explain to non-believers what advice can I take
• 20:41
  S8: from from the detective Uh uh, how can I use
• 20:46
  S8: my knowledge of scripture or or further reading of Scripture
• 20:50
  S8: or anything to develop an evidential playbook so that I
• 20:53
  S8: don't come across as the people he's asked that have
• 20:57
  S8: those really lame number one and number two answers.
• 21:00
  S1: Stephen, that is a great question. And you know what?
• 21:03
  S1: To be fair here, Jay Warner, you're ripping off facts
• 21:07
  S1: and stats that some people aren't wired to do this.
• 21:10
  S1: I don't care if they sat down for a month
• 21:12
  S1: of Sundays, bro.
• 21:14
  S6: Yeah, no you're right. And here's what I would say. Um,
• 21:16
  S6: it's I people always say, well, how do I help
• 21:18
  S6: my kids? How do I, how do I accomplish this? Well,
• 21:20
  S6: here's what I would say. There are some places in
• 21:23
  S6: your life right now where you are already able to
• 21:25
  S6: do this. It's just not for Christianity. So as we
• 21:28
  S6: get ready for the NFL draft, there are people already
• 21:30
  S6: who are going to say, well, I think this guy
• 21:31
  S6: should go first, second, third. They can make a case
• 21:33
  S6: for why this guy is so great at the combine,
• 21:35
  S6: blah blah, blah, blah, blah, blah blah. They didn't set
• 21:37
  S6: out to do that. They're just so interested they can't
• 21:41
  S6: help but do it. So I think a lot of
• 21:43
  S6: it is, is I'm just geeked out about this stuff.
• 21:45
  S6: And because I'm geeked out about this stuff, this is
• 21:47
  S6: how it emerges. Well, so a lot of it is
• 21:49
  S6: just going to be like saying, hey, what is it
• 21:50
  S6: right now that's distracting you? Where is your geekdom? Okay.
• 21:54
  S6: Because it's probably in something. It's in the next Netflix series.
• 21:57
  S6: It's in something that you've already researched, that you're interested in,
• 22:00
  S6: that you could make a case for. We typically can
• 22:03
  S6: make a case for our favorite team better than we
• 22:06
  S6: can make a case for our faith. We pass on
• 22:08
  S6: our fanship. If your green Bay Packer family you're a
• 22:12
  S6: green Bay Packer family, and you can do this automatically.
• 22:15
  S6: So here's what I would say. Start by engaging people
• 22:18
  S6: because you're going to find out what their questions are,
• 22:19
  S6: and you're not going to be able to answer those
• 22:21
  S6: right away. Okay. So I'm going to get back to
• 22:23
  S6: you on that. And one step at a time, you
• 22:26
  S6: make a case for what you believe based on what
• 22:28
  S6: people are asking you. Part of the problem is, is
• 22:31
  S6: that we are so unevangelized that, that we don't often
• 22:36
  S6: get in conversations with others to even see what the
• 22:38
  S6: questions are. And we've never examined. We surround ourselves with
• 22:42
  S6: people who are just like us, who don't ask any questions,
• 22:45
  S6: and we're not engaging the world. And you can do this,
• 22:47
  S6: by the way, even on social media, right? If you
• 22:48
  S6: got something as simple as Facebook. So for the ancient people. Right.
• 22:52
  S6: Or whatever the platform you like. But start talking about
• 22:55
  S6: your faith and trust me, the questions will come and
• 22:58
  S6: then you're going to become a better question. Answerer.
• 23:01
  S1: Uh, you know what, Jay Warner? I appreciate that. I
• 23:07
  S1: think you are right. I think there's a certain geek
• 23:10
  S1: factor that we need to get around this. And just
• 23:13
  S1: your your exposure in my life has got me geeking
• 23:17
  S1: out on this, and to use your term, uh, but
• 23:20
  S1: to me, uh, let me ask it this way. Have
• 23:23
  S1: you come up with and we're going to point people
• 23:25
  S1: to your site here, but have you come up with
• 23:28
  S1: any tools that kind of collapse? Um, some of these
• 23:32
  S1: evidences into a almost a cheat sheet of sorts or. No.
• 23:39
  S6: Uh, well, you know, if people write books, we write
• 23:41
  S6: books because we want to kind of consolidate our image
• 23:44
  S6: in a way to present. Yeah, it's like a cheat sheet.
• 23:45
  S6: But I'll be honest, I always say, don't buy someone's
• 23:48
  S6: book until you've exhausted everything they're willing to give you
• 23:51
  S6: for free. And so everything you need to know is
• 23:53
  S6: on our website for free. You don't need to buy
• 23:56
  S6: a book. But but I'll be honest that that we
• 23:59
  S6: have to be start to get interested. So ask yourself
• 24:02
  S6: the very basic questions. Ask yourself this. If you've got kids,
• 24:06
  S6: what are their questions you don't think you know? Listen,
• 24:08
  S6: if you don't know your kids questions about their faith,
• 24:11
  S6: that's a great place to start and just ask those.
• 24:14
  S6: If you want to know, like what? Five questions do
• 24:16
  S6: I need to answer? Ask your kids, where are you
• 24:18
  S6: struggling with this? What? What is it that gives you doubt?
• 24:20
  S6: What is it that gives you? Like, where is it?
• 24:22
  S6: Because I want to be able to answer those for myself,
• 24:24
  S6: and I want to be able to answer those for
• 24:25
  S6: you and for others. So I'd like to just know
• 24:28
  S6: what your questions are you struggling with? Because I want
• 24:31
  S6: to learn how to answer those. I want to learn
• 24:32
  S6: if maybe those are deal killers for us, maybe that
• 24:35
  S6: should exclude Christianity as a worldview. Let's find out together.
• 24:39
  S6: So is this a matter of you engaging the questions
• 24:42
  S6: one at a time? Now, look, this is like every
• 24:45
  S6: other cumulative case. On any cold case, it's death by
• 24:48
  S6: a thousand paper cuts. Yeah, there's not a single piece
• 24:51
  S6: of evidence I can give you. It's the cumulative weight
• 24:53
  S6: of evidence that that for me, persuaded me. And it's
• 24:57
  S6: true for every jury trial. Yes. So? So just be prepared.
• 25:00
  S6: There is no silver bullet. That's why continuing geekdom is
• 25:04
  S6: actually the solution. I love it because you just constantly
• 25:07
  S6: lean in.
• 25:07
  S1: Yeah. Uh, listen, Jay Warner has some free content and
• 25:11
  S1: awesome stuff and links to books that he's written. So
• 25:15
  S1: text the word case, get geeked out about the right stuff.
• 25:19
  S1: And I would encourage you to pray that God would
• 25:22
  S1: create that geekdom in you. And I mean this. Ask God,
• 25:25
  S1: get on your knees and say redirect. What captures my fascination?
• 25:30
  S1: I believe he'll answer that prayer. Text the word case
• 25:33
  S1: to 800 555 7898 800 555 7898. Well, here's a
• 25:40
  S1: question that young people are asking. What's the difference between Islam, Christianity? Hinduism?
• 25:48
  S1: Come on. Aren't they all paths that lead to God?
• 25:52
  S1: What do you say, Jay Warner?
• 25:54
  S6: Well, they could all be wrong for sure, but they
• 25:56
  S6: can't all be right. And here's why. They make competing claims.
• 25:59
  S6: So if you believe that Jesus rose from the dead,
• 26:02
  S6: died on a cross, and rose from the dead, you
• 26:04
  S6: can't hold that claim under Islam. Now, it could be
• 26:06
  S6: that Islam's claims about Jesus as the wisest, most important
• 26:10
  S6: prophet in the history of prophets. Even more important than Muhammad.
• 26:13
  S6: That's their claim. And that could be true. But they
• 26:15
  S6: don't believe he died on the cross and rose from
• 26:17
  S6: the grave. So we could both be wrong about that.
• 26:19
  S6: Or one of us could be right and the other
• 26:22
  S6: is wrong. But we both can't be right because we're
• 26:25
  S6: making competing claims. And this is true for all of
• 26:28
  S6: the theistic and spiritual worldviews. Okay, they're all making competing claims,
• 26:33
  S6: which means we're going to be forced to say, well,
• 26:35
  S6: every one of these paths leads. It's like saying, okay,
• 26:37
  S6: I've got directions to Jim Wallace's house. All right, but
• 26:40
  S6: they're all different directions. Now, they could all be wrong.
• 26:43
  S6: Or one of them could be right. But to say
• 26:44
  S6: that they're all right is going to put you in
• 26:46
  S6: completely different locations, so we can't that kind of claim
• 26:49
  S6: is just nonsensical. So we have to actually ask the
• 26:51
  S6: question first. Do we know which of these is correct?
• 26:54
  S6: How would we test those? And this is testable. You
• 26:56
  S6: have to ask yourself is the document reliable like an
• 26:59
  S6: eyewitness account? Was it written early enough to have been
• 27:02
  S6: written by eyewitnesses? That's going to eliminate Islam. Those documents
• 27:06
  S6: are not written early enough, does it? Can it be
• 27:09
  S6: corroborated in some way? Can it? Can it? Has it
• 27:12
  S6: changed over time? Has the claim changed over time? And finally,
• 27:17
  S6: does the person writing it have something in it for
• 27:20
  S6: him in the areas of sex, money or power? Because
• 27:22
  S6: that's what motivates all lies, sex, money and power. So
• 27:26
  S6: when you look at those four criteria, that's either going
• 27:28
  S6: to encourage you to to hold on to the worldview
• 27:30
  S6: you have or to abandon it, because that's how we
• 27:33
  S6: determine if eyewitness accounts are reliable.
• 27:35
  S1: Yeah. Love it. Quick question. I have for you. A
• 27:38
  S1: lot of people look at Muhammad and look at some
• 27:41
  S1: of his lifestyle. They look at, uh, Joseph Smith, Brigham Young,
• 27:47
  S1: Joseph Smith perjured himself in a court of law. Is
• 27:50
  S1: it fair game to look at the character of the
• 27:53
  S1: author of these religions, or is that off, off point?
• 27:58
  S6: No, it's absolutely in a criminal trial. Absolutely. It's fair game. Like,
• 28:04
  S6: why would this guy be lying to me? Well, he
• 28:05
  S6: has he benefited in one of these three ways. He
• 28:07
  S6: got rich off of it. He got, uh, girls off
• 28:09
  S6: of it, or he got, um, you know, power. He
• 28:12
  S6: got authority. He was respected because of it. And this
• 28:14
  S6: is the problem with, I think. And look, by the way,
• 28:17
  S6: if somebody has one of those three motives or all three,
• 28:21
  S6: does that mean he's lying? No, but it does mean
• 28:24
  S6: we should look more carefully to see if everything else
• 28:26
  S6: lines up. It's a pointer. These kinds of things point
• 28:29
  S6: us to where deception might lie. And that's what we
• 28:31
  S6: do here. What? What in the world did the disciples
• 28:34
  S6: get out of this? Now I will say some of
• 28:36
  S6: the skeptics will say, well, they got famous. Really? The
• 28:39
  S6: kind of fame that leads to your infamous maybe. But
• 28:41
  S6: but the problem is, is that someone like Paul, who
• 28:44
  S6: wrote most of the New Testament, already had the authority
• 28:47
  S6: and respect of his peers before he jumped into this
• 28:50
  S6: worldview that was going to cost him his life. So
• 28:53
  S6: why not just stay where you are? Yeah. With the
• 28:55
  S6: larger group that's more established within the Roman Empire than
• 28:58
  S6: the Christians were. But this is my whole point, is
• 29:01
  S6: that they lack the kind of motive. Joseph had motive
• 29:03
  S6: in all three areas, right? He he took, uh, dozens
• 29:07
  S6: of wives. Nobody wants to talk about that. Uh, he he, uh,
• 29:11
  S6: he said that he wrote in the scripture that the
• 29:13
  S6: prophet will be supported by the people. And and he
• 29:16
  S6: at one point was the he had the second largest
• 29:19
  S6: army on the North American continent, next to the United
• 29:22
  S6: States Army. So in terms of sex, money and power,
• 29:25
  S6: there was a motive for all three. Does that mean
• 29:27
  S6: he's lying? No, but it points me now. And now
• 29:30
  S6: I know I've got to investigate what his claims are.
• 29:32
  S6: I think the problem I have with the claims are,
• 29:34
  S6: is that none of these claims comport with reality. Remember,
• 29:38
  S6: our worldview is not like Hinduism or other worldviews. Our worldview,
• 29:42
  S6: as well as Mormonism, is grounded in historical data. If
• 29:45
  S6: the stuff didn't happen in the first century in the
• 29:47
  S6: Jerusalem region that is reported in the New Testament Gospels,
• 29:51
  S6: we can walk away from them. And if you've got
• 29:53
  S6: a thousand years of history on the North American continent
• 29:56
  S6: that didn't actually occur, it's fair to walk away from it.
• 30:00
  S1: Yeah. Phenomenal stuff. J Warner Wallace, you want good content,
• 30:03
  S1: text the word case, one word case to 805 55 7898.
• 30:10
  S1: He said it before you buy a book, get all
• 30:12
  S1: the free stuff first. Well, this is his free stuff.
• 30:14
  S1: 805 55, 78, 98 going back the phone lines. Oh,
• 30:19
  S1: here's an interesting one. Chico. First time caller. Pittsburgh. But
• 30:22
  S1: driving truck. What's your question for Jay Warner?
• 30:26
  S9: Good morning sir. Yeah I'm in Tennessee right now. Truck
• 30:28
  S9: driver here's my question. The Shroud of Turin I've studied
• 30:32
  S9: it since I was a kid. What is the impact
• 30:35
  S9: of it upon us as Christians and the fallen world?
• 30:38
  S9: And how can we use that as a tool to witness?
• 30:41
  S1: Okay, what do you say? This is a big one, man.
• 30:44
  S1: It's come up again here recently. Jay Warner.
• 30:47
  S6: Yeah, well, I've been asked to write something about this,
• 30:49
  S6: and I'm going to do a short podcast on this
• 30:52
  S6: in the next couple of weeks. But but for me, I'll.
• 30:55
  S1: Define what that is first for people that don't know.
• 30:58
  S6: Okay. The shroud is basically a linen cloth. It's made
• 31:00
  S6: of several materials that reportedly is the cloth that was
• 31:03
  S6: placed over Jesus. And there are some transfer biological transfer
• 31:08
  S6: on this cloth, allegedly, that takes the image of a
• 31:11
  S6: man who's been crucified. And it so it has been
• 31:14
  S6: typically historically attributed to, um, to the burial cloth of
• 31:19
  S6: Jesus that has actually been somehow preserved. Okay. And I
• 31:22
  S6: know that people like Lee Strobel, um, my good friend
• 31:25
  S6: Gary Habermas, these are folks who, um, who really love
• 31:29
  S6: this Shroud of Turin as a piece of evidence. Okay, now,
• 31:32
  S6: this is where you're going to be upset with me.
• 31:34
  S6: I'm not as convinced. Okay, I'm just not. And I'll
• 31:36
  S6: tell you why. I think that there's motive in the
• 31:38
  S6: people who first claimed that this was what it is.
• 31:42
  S6: That was definitely motivated financially and from an authority power
• 31:47
  S6: perspective to say something that's not true now. It may
• 31:50
  S6: very well be. I'm probably like a, uh, maybe 55,
• 31:54
  S6: 45 against it. And here's why. Look, even if it's
• 31:58
  S6: this is there's too many claims you can make against
• 32:00
  S6: the shroud that have merit. There just are. And then
• 32:05
  S6: it's a battle of competing claims. Here's what I've learned.
• 32:07
  S6: If I've got a 51 piece case against a particular defendant,
• 32:13
  S6: and one of those pieces is like, it could go
• 32:15
  S6: either way. I don't use it in the case proper.
• 32:19
  S6: I use the 50 pieces that are strong, that are irrefutable.
• 32:22
  S6: And I leave the 51st piece out if they want
• 32:25
  S6: to bring it in, great. I'll show how it can
• 32:27
  S6: also fit into our case. But I don't use it
• 32:30
  S6: as part of the case proper because it's attackable and
• 32:34
  S6: defense attorneys are good at that. And that has happened
• 32:36
  S6: to the shroud. And as often as I read the
• 32:39
  S6: both sides of the reports, I'm like, yeah, I can
• 32:41
  S6: see the case against and I can see the case for.
• 32:44
  S6: That's why I would never use it. Because it because
• 32:46
  S6: if you've got a case against that has any credibility,
• 32:49
  S6: then it's a weak piece. Now if somebody else brings
• 32:51
  S6: it up, you can show why. Well wait a minute.
• 32:53
  S6: There's a lot of data that would. This may be real. Yeah,
• 32:56
  S6: but I'm not going to use it out of modesty,
• 32:58
  S6: in a evidential modesty, because I think there are better
• 33:01
  S6: ways to make the case.
• 33:02
  S1: Yeah. Love it. Jay Warner, our guest right now going
• 33:05
  S1: to go back to the phone lines here. 800 555 7898.
• 33:09
  S1: Last few minutes of our Ask the expert last Fort Lauderdale, Florida.
• 33:14
  S1: Thanks for holding on. What's your question for Jay Warner?
• 33:18
  S10: Hey, how are you guys doing? Jay? Thank you for
• 33:21
  S10: being on the program.
• 33:22
  S6: Glad to be here.
• 33:24
  S10: Uh, yeah. Just, uh, it's more of a comment, and
• 33:27
  S10: I wanted to get Jay's opinion. I suppose a question
• 33:30
  S10: and an answer. Um, so in apologetics is can be
• 33:34
  S10: so difficult to try to bring the facts to, to
• 33:37
  S10: play and bring Scripture into play and prove something factually,
• 33:41
  S10: especially if you have a lot of knowledge in Scripture,
• 33:44
  S10: like the gentleman that had called a little earlier. But
• 33:46
  S10: I just wanted to get your opinion about the testimony
• 33:48
  S10: because they didn't deny Scripture. They can deny the validity
• 33:54
  S10: of the of the Bible. They can deny so many
• 33:57
  S10: things when you're talking to someone that doesn't know the Lord,
• 34:00
  S10: but the one thing they can't deny is the testimony.
• 34:02
  S10: And as in revelation, it says, you know, they overcame
• 34:05
  S10: by the blood of the lamb. Some other I just
• 34:07
  S10: wanted to get your thoughts on on using the testimony
• 34:10
  S10: as opposed to biblical facts and scripture. Um, I found
• 34:13
  S10: myself that when I do that, um, you just can't
• 34:16
  S10: deny what God is doing. I was blind, and honestly. Yeah.
• 34:19
  S1: Lest I think we got it, I think the key
• 34:21
  S1: word there, as opposed to it's not either or, is
• 34:24
  S1: it J Warner.
• 34:25
  S6: No, it's a both end. And I always tell people
• 34:28
  S6: I don't really focus so much on my testimony so
• 34:31
  S6: much as I focus on the case. And here's why.
• 34:33
  S6: Because my Mormon family, six brothers and sisters raised LDS.
• 34:36
  S6: They've got great testimony. Doesn't make what they believe true.
• 34:39
  S6: That's a very LDS approach. You know, they actually even
• 34:43
  S6: trained the missionaries to resort to their testimony.
• 34:45
  S1: So burning in the bosom, right? J Warner.
• 34:48
  S6: Yeah. And so here's what I would say about testimony. Testimony,
• 34:50
  S6: as you see it in Scripture, is very different because
• 34:52
  S6: those people were eye witnesses who were testifying to what
• 34:56
  S6: they saw about Jesus. Go through the book of acts
• 34:59
  S6: and tell me, when you see somebody simply, uh, tell uh,
• 35:04
  S6: somebody else, uh, apostle tell somebody else about how his
• 35:07
  S6: life was changed.
• 35:08
  S1: Well, Paul, Paul did to Agrippa.
• 35:11
  S6: Well, yes, but what is he talking about? He talks
• 35:13
  S6: about how he was. He appeared. He appeared to him
• 35:15
  S6: on the road. It's an eyewitness account.
• 35:17
  S1: Yeah, yeah, you're right, you're right. Even that has eyewitness account. Right, right.
• 35:22
  S6: And so and so for us, you know, we we
• 35:23
  S6: are not the eyewitnesses who actually saw Jesus. We've had
• 35:27
  S6: an experience that we attribute to Jesus. Totally get it.
• 35:30
  S6: It's not an either or. Do both. But here's what
• 35:32
  S6: I would say. What what LDS believers cannot do is
• 35:35
  S6: give you their personal testimony and then tie it to
• 35:38
  S6: the case. The facts for we could. That is the
• 35:41
  S6: one unique way we could use testimony that no other
• 35:44
  S6: group could do. If what we believe is factually true,
• 35:47
  S6: we could offer our personal testimony and then give the
• 35:50
  S6: data so that I can say, this is this is why,
• 35:52
  S6: by the way, I know it's not just an experience
• 35:55
  S6: I had. It's not just my imagination. It's tied to
• 35:58
  S6: this data because for everybody else, they've had an experience.
• 36:01
  S6: I'm not going to deny they've had an experience. The
• 36:03
  S6: question is, is it tied to something real in the
• 36:06
  S6: spiritual realm? So that's why I want us to be
• 36:09
  S6: able to do both of these things instead of just
• 36:12
  S6: do one.
• 36:12
  S1: And he's not just leaving you hanging. Here's the link.
• 36:15
  S1: You want some cold case facts? You want some data points.
• 36:21
  S1: Text the word case. It's free. The content is right there.
• 36:25
  S1: Text case to 800 555 7898 800 555 7898. A
• 36:33
  S1: few more questions for J. Warner. Wallace straight ahead.
• 36:37
  S7: Get in the know with life's biggest questions. It's Ask
• 36:40
  S7: the Experts week with Carl and crew.
• 36:44
  S1: I totally mix things up here. We've asked all of
• 36:48
  S1: our experts this week, and they've all been like, absolutely,
• 36:52
  S1: you count it done to just jump in and explain
• 36:56
  S1: from their heart why in the world. Moody radio next
• 37:01
  S1: week we start in earnest, guys. 4 million bucks. We're
• 37:04
  S1: listener supported around here. Build a case for me, my man. Why?
• 37:08
  S1: Moody radio next week. Let's go. J Warner, build a case.
• 37:12
  S6: Well, I can tell you that this is a like
• 37:14
  S6: other cases, our influencing culture is death by a thousand
• 37:17
  S6: paper cuts, right? Every every little piece helps. But I
• 37:20
  S6: can tell you that the strength of podcasting right now
• 37:23
  S6: demonstrates the strength of radio and why radio is so important.
• 37:27
  S6: Because it's not just that we're reaching people alive, and
• 37:29
  S6: there are people right now who are, like you said,
• 37:31
  S6: how many? The last two callers, they're driving and they're
• 37:34
  S6: hearing they're hearing the gospel and they're being strengthened and equipped.
• 37:36
  S6: And by the way, we're not just empty vessels. We're
• 37:40
  S6: either filling up with something good or something bad, and
• 37:43
  S6: we have to make a choice about what it is
• 37:45
  S6: we are putting in our minds, like we talked about before.
• 37:47
  S6: What are you geeked out about? So what we need is,
• 37:50
  S6: is people to step up and contribute in audio is
• 37:54
  S6: an incredible way. For example, you guys not only do
• 37:58
  S6: this live thing that as soon as it's done, you're
• 37:59
  S6: posting it as a podcast. And I'll bet you you've
• 38:02
  S6: got a huge listenership because if they can't hear you live,
• 38:05
  S6: then they are listening to the podcast. Content is still king,
• 38:10
  S6: and there are tons of people out there who are
• 38:11
  S6: producing content which is not glorifying honoring God. It's not
• 38:15
  S6: we have to make a decision as a culture like,
• 38:17
  S6: what are we? What are we going to watch? What
• 38:19
  S6: are we going to listen to? What are we going
• 38:21
  S6: to support in front of our kids? What do they
• 38:23
  S6: hear us listening to? So if and we're all searching
• 38:27
  S6: for that content, well, once you find it, you ought
• 38:29
  S6: to do something to support it, because this doesn't just
• 38:32
  S6: happen in a vacuum. And so I think in the end,
• 38:35
  S6: what's important to me anyway, is to be a part
• 38:37
  S6: of content creation that changes the conversation. And that's what
• 38:40
  S6: you guys do. So yeah, is it worth supporting? Well,
• 38:43
  S6: what else is more worthy to support than content creation
• 38:46
  S6: that changes and turns the conversation toward God? That's the
• 38:49
  S6: stuff we should be supporting.
• 38:50
  S1: Wow. Jean Warner, I love you and I appreciate that.
• 38:52
  S1: By the way, if you're not going to be here
• 38:54
  S1: next week or maybe the Spirit of God just bumped
• 38:56
  S1: your cup and you're like, huh, gotta do it right now.
• 38:58
  S1: 800 696 24 there's folks there right now, 800, 696 24.
• 39:08
  S1: Or you can go online to Moody Radio Dot. That's
• 39:11
  S1: Moody radio.org. And I want to thank you ahead of
• 39:14
  S1: time that your hearts are going to be warmed up
• 39:15
  S1: to have a just a record setting next week for
• 39:18
  S1: spring share. We love you. All right. We're going to
• 39:20
  S1: go back to the phone lines right now. Carol Dayton, Ohio.
• 39:23
  S1: What's your question for Jay? Warner. Wallace.
• 39:27
  S11: Oh, thanks. Um. Today's culture often promotes belief and faith. Um,
• 39:34
  S11: so that everybody has it, um, and according to the verse,
• 39:39
  S11: believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.
• 39:42
  S11: And my friends added to that. Be still and know
• 39:45
  S11: that I am God. And I counter that with, well,
• 39:49
  S11: even the demons believe. Um, how do you differentiate, um,
• 39:55
  S11: true belief, um, when there's no desire to study the
• 39:59
  S11: word or there's no production of fruit yet they, um,
• 40:03
  S11: pride themselves on true beliefs.
• 40:07
  S1: Well, so you got two guys loaded for bear on
• 40:10
  S1: this one. Go ahead, J. Warner.
• 40:12
  S6: We've got so little time to do this. So this
• 40:13
  S6: is this is do the lightning part of this. Okay.
• 40:15
  S6: Number one I differentiate differentiate between belief in and belief
• 40:19
  S6: that belief that is what you're talking about. It's this
• 40:22
  S6: idea that I believe that something is true. And I
• 40:24
  S6: got to a point after investigating the Gospels that I
• 40:27
  S6: had believed that they were telling me the truth about
• 40:29
  S6: what happened to Jesus in the first century. But I
• 40:31
  S6: was not a believer yet. But if you asked me,
• 40:33
  S6: do you believe this stuff? I would have said yes,
• 40:35
  S6: but does that mean I have belief in no? So
• 40:38
  S6: I use this illustration to mark the difference. I had
• 40:40
  S6: a shooting. I was working often involved shootings, and I
• 40:42
  S6: had an officer involved in a shooting years ago, and
• 40:45
  S6: he was somebody who had selected the vest that we
• 40:48
  S6: were wearing as an agency. He was part of that committee.
• 40:50
  S6: So he had seen his bulletproof vest, stopped bullets in
• 40:54
  S6: the range. And this particular night, a guy gets the
• 40:56
  S6: drop on him and is now pointing a gun at
• 40:59
  S6: his chest from just a few feet away, and the
• 41:02
  S6: officer had to make a decision. Do I jump the guy?
• 41:05
  S6: Do I try to do a takeaway maneuver? Do I
• 41:06
  S6: try to jump behind my car? And he said, well, no,
• 41:09
  S6: I just put this brand new vest on and I'd
• 41:12
  S6: seen it stop bullets in the range. So I decided
• 41:15
  S6: to just tense up my stomach muscles and take the
• 41:17
  S6: first couple of rounds until I could return fire. And
• 41:20
  S6: I thought, wow, that's a gutsy call. But it turns
• 41:24
  S6: out he moved in that second from belief that to
• 41:27
  S6: belief in wow, he had belief that the vest could
• 41:31
  S6: stop the bullets, but once he trusted it for his life,
• 41:34
  S6: he moved toward belief in. Now, what's interesting about that
• 41:38
  S6: is that what caused him to take the step. It
• 41:41
  S6: turns out it was his evidential certainty from having seen
• 41:45
  S6: the vest stop the bullets. So there's a connection between
• 41:49
  S6: your level of evidential certainty. Have you looked at this?
• 41:53
  S6: Do you know that it's more than just your wishful thinking?
• 41:55
  S6: Because the word hope in Scripture is not wishful thinking.
• 41:58
  S6: The word hope in Scripture is used to describe certainty
• 42:02
  S6: we have about something we we. It has not yet
• 42:05
  S6: come based on the evidence we've been presented so far.
• 42:09
  S6: That version of hope can stand in a gunfight, and
• 42:12
  S6: that's why we need to help ourselves to look at
• 42:14
  S6: the case more deeply. If you can't make a case
• 42:17
  S6: for this, trust me, when push comes to shove and
• 42:19
  S6: you've got an easy way out, you'll take it. That's
• 42:21
  S6: why we need to have belief in not believe that.
• 42:24
  S1: Love it. Okay, you got to do this one in 30s.
• 42:26
  S1: Question about Muhammad going to heaven. And so I'm going
• 42:29
  S1: to broaden this out. What do you do with miracles
• 42:31
  S1: from other world religions?
• 42:33
  S6: Well, you test all miracles. This is what Jesus would
• 42:36
  S6: invite you to test those miracles. His miracles, he said,
• 42:38
  S6: John says, were signs that he was the Son of God.
• 42:41
  S6: So first, anyone who's alive today who says they are
• 42:43
  S6: doing a miracle in the name of Jesus, test it.
• 42:47
  S6: Do not trust test right. This is part of what
• 42:49
  S6: we we don't trust eyewitnesses. We test eyewitnesses. If they
• 42:53
  S6: pass the test, we are instructed to trust them. But
• 42:56
  S6: we don't trust them blindly. And this is the claim
• 42:59
  S6: of Scripture as well. Remember that everything is in the
• 43:02
  S6: power is only in the gospel. The case we make
• 43:04
  S6: is simply to clear the weeds so you can hear
• 43:07
  S6: the gospel clearly, but there is no power in the case.
• 43:10
  S6: The power is in the gospel. The case simply makes
• 43:13
  S6: the gospel hearable. And that's what we want to be
• 43:16
  S6: able to do, is make a case for Christianity so
• 43:18
  S6: the gospel can be heard. The verses that matter are
• 43:21
  S6: the gospel verses, but you know you want to have
• 43:24
  S6: a case that you can stand in. So when the
• 43:26
  S6: tough times come, you will stand calmly in the gunfight.
• 43:29
  S1: Yeah, yeah. Beautiful. Okay, here's where we go. Boom! Crew.
• 43:32
  S1: Listen to me. Text the word case right now. I
• 43:36
  S1: want us to begin geeking out on what matters. What's
• 43:40
  S1: that mean? Realign from cat videos or home fix up
• 43:46
  S1: stuff to building a case in your heart for what
• 43:49
  S1: really matters. Text case to 800 555 7898 everything J.
• 43:55
  S1: Warner Wallace has found right there. Text case to 800
• 44:00
  S1: 555 7898. And then one final banner ad here. We're
• 44:05
  S1: going to take all of these segments this week. Put
• 44:08
  S1: them in our show cast as J. Warner was just
• 44:10
  S1: referring to. So text the word show. We're going to
• 44:13
  S1: have J. Warner's up here for another couple hours show
• 44:17
  S1: to 800 555 7898 800 555 7898.