Latest / The Drop the Needle Podcast / 63: DTN Podcast | Jim Alstott Ep. 63 | Can science explain spirituality? with Dr Vicki Garlock
Transcript
- Welcome to the Drop the Needle Podcast, your backstage pass to the mystical realm. I'm your host, Jim Alstatt. And here, gifted souls step up to the mic, sharing their spiritual journey. We're hitting the high notes and the low notes of their awakening, creating a symphony of enlightenment. This isn't just another interview show. This is where divine insights are channeled and universal truths are revealed. So crank up your stereo and sit back, because who knows? This just might help you compose the next transformative chapter of your soul's purpose. Are you ready? Let's go. Hi, everyone, and welcome back to the Drop the Needle Podcast. I'm your host, Jim Alstott, and I am so happy you all decided to join us. Well, Today's guest, his Reverend Dr. Vicki Garlock, a neuroscience scientist turned interfaith minister who recently set. Dig this. She recently set a Guinness world record by visiting 185 places of worship in one month. She lives where science meets the sacred. And this conversation is going to be a good one. So let's stop this yapping and let's get into it. So how are you and welcome, Vicki. Thank you so much, Jim. I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to seeing where our conversation is going to go. I think that this is. Well, I'll tell you what, Number one, you have one of the most interesting backgrounds. As a matter of fact, you have one of the. I'll go so far as to say you're the only one we've had on the show that has this type of background and an interesting. Not like, oh, isn't that interesting? Like, weird that. This is really cool because you are known as Reverend Vicky Michaela Garlock, right? That's right. In some circles I'm also kind of known as Mom, Right? Well, hey, that's a great moniker to have, in my opinion. That's a good one. Exactly. But what I find to be interesting in all of this, I said doctor and doctor, PhD, that's right. From Brown University, you know, is Brown University some fancy junior college? I'm totally kidding, totally kidding. Brown University is a prestigious spread. Just one of the highest honors is to be a graduate from Brown University. It's incredible. And you, so you went there and you got your undergrad, you got your undergrad in psych, right? Yeah. So, yeah. I always tell people, though, I don't think I could get into Brown now, but back in the day I could get into Brown and I was very fortunate to get into Brown and it was quite the experience for me. I grew up in a small town in the Midwest and so it was just a very different experience. I met a lot of people that I probably would have never met in any other way. And so yes, so it was an honor and I probably couldn't. I grew up in Kankakee, Illinois because that's where I'm, I'm not from Kankakee, but I'm in the Chicagoland area. Well, so it's, it's about 60 miles south of Chicago but it, you know, it's not really a suburb of Chicago. I mean it was really, really far away. And so it was a big special treat for us to go to Chicago. You know, we went, my parents grew up in the Chicago suburbs so occasionally they would take us to Chicag, but then once a year during my grade school years, K8, once a year we would go to Chicago for a field trip. So yes, I went to Chicago at least once a year. That's very cool. So I went to school at DePaul University in the Lincoln park campus. And the funniest. Well, it's not funny. It's really kind of, I guess, typical, right? You live in this cool place. I live by the zoo, which I went there one time in two and a half years. It would, you know, there's all these wonderful, wonderful things, the, the Art Institute and the museums. But you're so busy doing your regular day to day thing that you just kind of forget about the fact that you've got some really cool stuff there which you drive by every day. But anyway, I remember my dad telling me, I remember saying that, telling my dad that I didn't really feel like I was taking advantage of all the opportunities that Brown had to offer. And he said, oh yeah, he said that's true for all college and university students. He said really, you have to be older and then go back to college and university. Then you can take advantage of everything you don't have time to take advantage of when you're actually in school there full time. No, he was 100% right. Yeah, he's a smart guy. But you know Link, I achieved my Guinness World Record in Chicago and so those 185 Places of worship were in Chicago. So of course I spent a couple of days in the Lincoln park area. It's a really wonderful area and lots of places of worship there. And so I had a great time walking around Lincoln Park. It's a very nice place to walk around. It really is. Especially in spring and summer. Even in the fall, winter. So I'm going to backpack up to Brown University. So you had your undergrad and your Ph.D. and you had dual specialties in there. One was in neuroscience and the other is in cognitive development. Right, Good job. Yeah, exactly. We were just talking about it and I said you had cognitive development and I have cognitive decline. Well, I was studying, my dissertation was on four to eight year old children. So they weren't in the decline phase yet. They were in the development phase. There's a whole set of people who study aging and cognitive decline, but that wasn't me. That's awesome. That's kind of like my, my personality or my humors in that age group. So that works out well. We're going to be right at home here today. I remember when my, my son, my. I have two young adult children, but I remember when my son turned 10 and I said to my hus husband, this is awesome. You guys are now at the exact same humor level. 10 years old. That's right. Well, you know, we kind of regress as we get older. Those little things make us laugh even harder. Right, exactly. So you know you spent over a decade as a college psychology professor. Right. And studying how the brain works. And then you pivoted to become an ordained minister as an interfaith minister. Right. And then you founded an organization called World Religions for Kids. That's right. And since then I've written multiple award winning books that teach children about really the beauty and the common threads across world's faith traditions. That's right. I'm trying to figure out how that happened. I know when I tell you this story, it will make sense to you, I think. And so what happened was I went got my PhD and I ended up with dual specialties which turned out to be. A lot of people told me that was a big mistake to switch specialty areas while I was in graduate school. But as it turned out, I was interested in teaching in a small liberal arts college. And so having dual specialties was really useful and many college, small colleges were really interested in it because at small liberal arts colleges they need people who can teach a range of courses. Right. So I could. Yeah, so I could teach the neuroscience courses. I taught courses like drugs and human behavior and learning and conditioning sensation and perception courses like that. But then I could also teach infant and child development cross cultural perspectives in child development cognition. And so I ended up teaching, I think it was 11 or 12 different courses while I was at Warren Wilson College in Asheville. Wow. So, yeah, so. So my resume let's say my CV as they call it in academia did really well on the market and I got several job offers and I decided to take this job at Warren Wilson College. So that was a great experience. The problem was that, and most professors will tell you this, but especially professors at small liberal arts colleges, it is not a 40 hour a week job. And you know, it's true that you get some time, slower time in the summer, I won't say time off, but slower times in the summer. But I mean I was probably working, you know, 55, 60 hours a week during the school year. And I don't know that that's unfair. Right? I mean, you know, I was salaried and that's kind of the way education works and the students are there and there's a lot to do and there's a lot you want to do. So that was all fine. The problem was that at that point, at some point we had two kids. My husband was also working, you know, over 40 hours a week. We're trying to spend time with our kids, we're trying to stay healthy and stay in shape and it just wasn't sustainable. It just wasn't sustainable. Just you know, you can do the math on the back of an envelope. Everybody's got 24 hours in a day, you know, know. And so we decided we needed to make some changes. And so at that point in time we were attending this multi faith community called Jubilee Community Church. And it was grounded in the Bible. The minister was an ordained Methodist minister, but they also brought in various practices and holy days from other religious traditions. So it was very open, it was a very open form of Christianity. That's kind of, that's a unique, it was very unique and I did not even realize how unique it was. It had been in Asheville. He started it in the 80s. And so by the time we started attending with our kids in the early aughts 2004, it had been around for quite a long time. And so anyway, we were attending this church and they had a little blurb in their bulletin that said they were looking for someone to come and run the Sunday school program and write a multi faith curriculum for them. So I looked at my husband and I said I could probably do that job. And the beauty of it was that it was 30 hours a week was full time. So as a family we made the decision that I would reduce my work hours to 30 hours a week. It was salaried and that was considered full time for them. I grew up in a very religious household. I went to a Lutheran grade school, K8, and I went to a Catholic high school for grades nine through 12. So as I tell people, even a complete idiot would know her Bible stories under those circumstances. I literally had religion classes six days a week from age 5 to age 15. Yeah. Interestingly, the last religion course I ever took in school was a world religions class that I took as a sophomore in high school. And it was taught by a priest, Father Savella, and it just blew my mind. I just thought it was so amazing. So I was wondering. I guess I shouldn't even say wondering. I had this vision in my mind, and please don't take offense by what I'm about to say, but, you know, like, have you ever seen the Blues Brothers? Oh, yeah. John Belushi and Daniel Acroyd, of course. And they go into the church and that beam of light comes and hits John Belushi. And he said, the band. The band, you know that. And he sees the light. And I was thinking, I wonder if that happened to her in the lecture hall. Visioning like this, all of a sudden this big download of. Of spiritual energy and divinity kicked in and was just like, it's time. That's right. That's right. Well, I don't know if I. I don't think I had that as a sophomore in high school. But, you know, I have had various moments in my life, Right. Where, you know, the word we use often in Asheville is a vortex. And so. And so I've been to many places and I've had many experiences. Right. Where the. The best way that I can put it, which always sounds trite when you talk about these things, I feel like. But where somehow I can feel the energy of thousands or millions of people who have been in that spot before me. So hold that thought, because I have. I've got some. Some questions that I really want to dig into, especially talking about frequencies and energies. But are you okay if I just start rattling off some questions? Because I have so many. Sure. All right, go for it. Okay. So when you look at spiritual experience through the lens of cognitive science, do you think that the brain is generating those experiences or receiving them? And I'm kind of curious as to where you land after all these years in both worlds. Yeah, well, I mean, I think probably we're going to find out that it's a little bit of. Right. So I think that certainly we have inputs coming in all the time right into our system, right through the normal senses that we think about. Right. But probably in other ways, as well, that we don't fully understand yet. Right. And so. And then the brain is working very hard to process all of those inputs that come from all sorts of different places. And then the brain is trying. When in the process of processing all of that information, the brain is then trying, I think, somewhat frantically sometimes to try to figure out a way to make it make sense in this material world that we live in. Right. So. And part of the reason why I think talking about spiritual experiences can often sound trite is because you're using this sort of basic language that we have. Right. This. It's a lot of words, but it's a finite set of words. Right. And we're stuck in this sort of finite body. Right. And so I think that part of what the brain is trying to do in these really sort of spiritual or transcendental experiences, I think the brain is trying to figure out, how do you take that experience and turn it into something that we, in this place, in this time, in this body, with this physical brain, can understand and talk about? Yes, that's right. That's right. Yeah, that's. So that's. That's really interesting. I'm glad you said that. It was kind of on the both side of the fence with that answer. That was. That was good. I think it's been hard for researchers to show. Right. I think we don't have good tools, you know, like scientific, physical, mechanistic tools. To measure. Yeah, that's right. To measure it. Right. But I do think that. But I do think that that's probably what's happening. And I always tell people, you know, 100 years from now, people are going to think we were idiots. Right. So we will continue to make progress and we will continue to find ways to talk about these things and measure these things better, for sure. Well, you know, and the thing about that is I know right now there are more and more instruments being developed to measure these things, like Auric measurements, to be able to tell you when we say orc people, not orc or raw. Yeah, I know sometimes when somebody said, oh, you've got a real Midwestern accent. And I'm like, what is that? What do you mean? You say Chicago. And it was like, it's Chicago. And they said Chicago. I moved away from the Midwest like decades ago, and someone just a few. Few days ago said, oh, I just heard your Midwestern accent. So I guess I still have a bit. Oh, yeah, but clearly there is about that. But so in the intro, I glossed over this accomplishment of yours that you are a Guinness World Record holder. Okay. I know. That's another first. Finally, all my craziness paid off. I do think you have to be a little bit crazy to attempt and earn a Guinness World Record, so. Yeah. From what you described. Yeah, but. And you did it. 85 sacred spaces visited in 30 days. I think I read that that was over 350,000 steps. Yeah, that's right. Well, so one of the Guinness rules was that I could not use a personal vehicle. I could not drive from. From place to place. So Chicago was a great city for me to attempt this record because I was on Chicago Transit Authority. Right. The cta. I know people in Chicago complain about the cta, but it worked wonders for me. It's a good system. Yeah, exactly. So I ended up taking, I don't know, over 65L train rides, over 65 bus rides, and then the whole day, I walked. I was. I was walking 350 over the month. 350,000 thousand steps. So, yes, that's something. That's impressive, too. So I wonder if there's a record for that. I know. Well, there probably is. My husband came up for the last few days, and this is not his passion. It's my passion. So that was part of it. But he. He walked around with me for a few days. He's like, babe, this is grueling. And at that point, I was in such good walking shape because I'd been walking four or five miles a day. And so, yeah, I was just, you know, going from here to there. Yeah, and he's like, exactly. Stopping to get water pouring. That's right. That's right. That's right. So are you good with me asking a few questions about this? Sure. Okay. So as I said, you walked over 350,000 steps visiting mosques, temples, cathedrals, synagogues, meditation centers, too, Right? That's right. That's right. My question, and this was kind of about the. The spaces. When you're moving through that many sacred spaces that quickly, does your body start to register something that your mind can't quite catch up with or articulate? Like, did you feel like a cumulative effect from all the energy? There definitely was a cumulative effect, and there were. But what was so fascinating about it was I had to. Another one of the Guinness rules was that someone had to sign a verification form at each and every place. Right. So. And that was not a rule that I knew. I found out about it about five or six weeks before I moved to Chicago for the month. And so I was sort of frantically emailing people and calling them and trying to set up appointments so that I could be sure they would be there to sign my form. And as it turned out, I was not able to set up enough appointments. The record, when I started this whole fiasco, this whole adventure, the record was 76 places of worship. And I had appointments at about 85 places of worship. And then a few days after I started the attempt, Guinness emailed me and said, we just wanted to let you know that someone already broke the record, and the new record is 111. So you have to do at least 112 to break it. And I was already one week in, and I had, like 85, you know, maybe 90. So it wasn't going to be enough. And so I realized that I had to change my strategy. And so what I did was I just started knocking on doors. I went to places and I rang their ring doorbell, or I knocked on the door, and I hoped that someone would answer. And then I would give them this little spiel about how I was getting a Guinness World Record. And they please sign my verification form. And so because of that, right. Because of that change in strategy, I not only visited 185 places that counted towards my record, I also met 185 people. That's very cool. And that was the cumulative effect, was all of that energy, right? So many people were so kind to me. They opened their door to me. They. Some of them, you know, just said, sure, I'll sign your form. But a lot of them said, well, did you want to come in? Do you want to see our sanctuary? Um, you know, so many people are connected to their place of worship. And I get that a lot of people are not interested in going to a place of worship, or they don't feel like that's part of their spiritual journey, or they don't need that to move forward on their spiritual path. But for a lot of people, they're really connected to that community in that space. And so that was the energy. That was the energy that I felt. And that was the energy that just kept getting stronger and stronger and stronger was this really kind of unexpectedly deep human connection that I was able to have with people by meeting them in a place and a space that was special to them. So, again, what immediately is going through my head, it's not like the. The light coming through and hitting you when you're at a lecture. That's right, Lectern. But it was, I know, me. And if, you know, you've got appointments in your head, you're probably Going, okay, I've got about two and a half minutes and I don't want to be rude because this person's being so nice. Please let me get through this and go on to the next, you know. Yeah. So that was, that's what I thought was going to happen. And so I was guessing when I was making these appointments, I'm looking at maps, right? I mean some of these places are just one or two blocks apart from each other, right. I was going to a particular neighborhood and walking around and, and so I was guessing. And so, and so what I was doing then was I would go to my appointments, but then before and after and in between, what was so on. One of the unexpected things was that I really didn't feel rushed. I really didn't feel rushed. I felt like I was going now. And a couple of times I was. They gave me an hour long tour, right. And so I had to kind of hustle up to get to the next place because I had left about an hour, an hour and 15 minutes in between each on some of them were more like 5 or 10 or 20 or 30 minutes. But that's what was so amazing about it was I thought, oh my gosh, I'm going to be running around and being rude. And that really pretty much never happened. And that was just so amazing about it and not. And totally unexpected. It. I could see that for sure. Yeah. So this is one of the things that I was curious about too was when you had mentioned energy from being in all of those places. Was there one space out of the 185 where you walked in and the energy just stopped you in your tracks. So there was not like one favorite space. And there were some fun spaces. One of the stories I tell people is we do not have and there's a place called iskcon, International Society for Krishna Consciousness. And we don't have an ISKCON here in Asheville. And I've never been to one before, but they do a kirtan and a vegetarian meal every Sunday night. So I emailed them and said, oh, can I come? They said of course. And so I was able to go to ISKCON one Sunday night. And I just love kirtan. And the space was just amazing and the people were just amazing. And so that was a really fun evening for me. But. But what was so amazing to me was that even when the space was like an old, like very small, very old musty smelling church, right. It was still special to the people who worship there. And so there was no Space that I walked into where I thought, oh, gosh, I'm glad I don't worship here. But I. Again, I think it comes back to the people. I think that was because it was special to the people who were there, and that made it special to me. Well, and I get that, because that's sweet is what that is, because somebody really cares so much, and it's not about what's on the outside. It's what's on the inside of those walls, which I am a believer in. I was actually. And I should have done a better job clarifying my question, because when you had mentioned that energy that you feel or felt, that's what I'm. I'm more referring to where, you know, when. If you walk into something that's highly charged energetically, it just go, boom. You get hit. It's like a wall, you know, that's what I was. I was wondering about if there was one place like that, and number one, what was it or where was it? And the second part of that is, what do you think was happening? Yeah. So I can't think of sort of one place that was specifically like that for me. I will say that there are some very impressive Catholic cathedrals, which you wouldn't know. You wouldn't. You would think, oh, there's so many trappings in those big Catholic cathedrals. Right. But what. What I can. And what I could feel in some. A couple of them in particular, was that when you walked in, right. There was. There had been thousands and thousands of people who had come through that space. So that's what that. That's what I feel. Right. So in my life, examples of where I've really felt that. Many years ago, we went to Kyoto in Japan, and there are some really, really old spaces there with bud. Old Buddhist temples, but old Buddhist temples that have been built on top of sort of natural mounds or stones or things that were probably already special long before they built the Buddhist temple. Yeah. Right. So you're. You're feeling. There was one place in particular in Kyoto where you go down a dark stairway and you put your hands. It's completely dark. They light up this rock, and you. Can you. They let you touch the rock. You know, a lot of places, they don't let you touch. Touch anything. Yeah, no, they let you. Yeah, they let you touch the rock, and you put your hands on this rock, and you can feel that there have been, you know, centuries, thousands of years, really, of people for whom that place was special. Very cool. Yeah. So that's. That's what I felt in some places, and I felt like there were sort of glimpses of it. I do wonder, I have to be honest. Honest, I do wonder if that was a byproduct of doing a Guinness World Record, right? So I say I didn't feel like I was in a rush, right? But I was also task at hand, right? I was. I needed to take a selfie, I needed to take a video. I needed to meet these people. I needed to remember their name. I needed to get them to sign a form. So I. I will say that in all fairness, that probably did detract from my ability to sort of be in that space. Yeah, Right. I mean, I'm in Kyoto. I'm just there, you know, there to appreciate it. Right. I'm on vacation, let's say. So I will say that that is probably, possibly one of the downsides of actually trying to accomplish a record, right, Is that that may have detracted from my ability, even though I say I didn't feel like I was in a rush. Yeah, no, I hear what you're saying, because it's like that sometimes when you go on tours, like, if you go to another country and you're going on this tour and you were so into the vibe of whatever, wherever you are, then it's like, up, time to go, and you're like, well, what? I mostly don't take tours for that reason. I will say the Baha' I Temple in Wilmette is really amazing. You know, that was a really nice place, and I had been looking forward to it for a long time. Lots of people asked me, are you gonna go? Are you gonna visit that? Yes, yes, yes. And so on that day when it was on my schedule, I just told myself, I said, you know, it's the very last L stop on the Purple Line. And I just told myself that I was gonna walk over there and I was gonna spend as much time as I wanted in that space and just enjoy that space. It's. Yeah, that's pretty. It's pretty cool. It is beautiful. I've never been, but she's shown or shared pictures of it, and it is quite amazing. It's so amazing that anyone can take a good picture of it. Not to diminish your friend's photos, but I took a lot of really good photos. Photos of it. I'm like, I think it's not me. I think it's just this space is so amazing. You just think, right? You can just take good pictures. Yeah, that's cool when that happens. Yeah. So I've got something that I was thinking about quite a bit as it relates to, well, when we were. We scheduled this. I've been thinking about this. And it's genuine curiosity that when you strip away a, let's say, specific theology, the architecture, the language, did you sense the same presence, let's say, in a Buddhist temple that you felt in a Catholic cathedral? So I guess where I'm going with this is the source. Is the source the same in. In your opinion, just wearing different clothes or. Or what? Yes, yes, absolutely. And so one of the things that I do in my business, right. World religions for kids, but then I also educate adults as well, Right. So one of the things I'm trying to do is break down these silos. And what's so amazing to me is that when I talk to people from these different religious traditions, I'm amazed at how often they are saying what sounds to me like the same thing. But how, but how would anybody know? Because we live in these silos. And so. And I get. I'm not saying that all religions are the same, right? There's, like you said, different clothing, right? There's. It's in the outward manifestations are different. But I absolutely believe, and it's my personal belief for sure, but I absolutely believe that the source is the one and it is the same and that. And in, I think in the Hindu traditions, you get that articulation more clearly, right? Where they say we are trying to reach the top of the mountain, and there are different routes to the top of the mountain. So I think in those traditions, they're more likely to sort of acknowledge that, accept that, and even lift that up in some traditions, whereas I think in other traditions, particularly the Abrahamic traditions, there's a lot of siloing going on. And I think that that is unfortunate. And I think we always have to recognize the different ways that religious traditions articulate that which is divine, the different practices. Right? But I think that ultimately. Ultimately, absolutely, straight up, yes. I love that. That's. That's a theory that I subscribe to, which is why I wanted to ask somebody that is an expert, because I am by no means an expert into the cycle. Well, it's gotta be, because everybody kind of talks about the. Which is one of my. One of my other things I wanted to ask you is, like, when you lay them all side by side, you know, Judaism, Sikh, Catholicism, whatever, what's the one truth they all seem to be pointing at that most people. Ms. Well, I think there's sort of a I would say two or three things, I think that religious traditions are trying to. To do, right. I think. And I think people who say they're spiritual but not religious are doing similar things. Right? So I think one thing that, that religious traditions and people who are spiritual are trying to do is you're trying to connect with something beyond the physical, right? Something that's bigger than you or deeply inside of you or however you want to articulate that. So I think that's one thing. I think another thing is that religious traditions and other spiritual practices really are helping us connect with one another. Right? Connect with one another and connect with the earth. So I think that's a common thread across all these different universal connection. And I also think that, you know, some of the main lessons are the same, right? People are trying to figure out, I mean, life is human. Life is complicated. It's complicated, it's confusing. It can be really difficult. How do, how do we, we explain that we die? How do we explain that quote, unquote, bad things happen to good people, Right? And how do we remain humble, gracious, compassionate and kind in the face of all that? It's not straightforward and it's not easy to do. No, gratitude would be really tough to, to show or have even, I don't even say shown in those rough moments. Yeah. So I think that, that at their best, at their best, I think that's what these traditions are trying to do. And I think, because these traditions, I don't know, I don't think the source is invented by humans, but I think these traditions and these practices were definitely invented by humans. Right? And so then because of that, they are also prone to the downsides of who we are as humans as well. Right? So we see. Yeah, so we see, you know, people who are greedy in all these different traditions. We see people who are prideful. We see people who really offer up violent, really offer up the worst of what humans have to offer at their best. However, I think all these practices can help us, as I often say to people, right. Connect with the divine, connect with one another and connect with the earth. I love that. No, that's good stuff. Well done. Golf clap. So you wrote an entire book about sacred spaces. That's right. And many energy healers and intuitives talk about how certain places hold a specific vibration, whether it's centuries old, like the churches or a spot in nature. As someone with a foot. And let's just say in both science and spirit, Right. What do you think is actually happening in those places? So again, I think that. I do believe that there are places and spaces that are kind of already special. Right, right. And. And we tend to. And I think humans over the centuries have tended to build things, Build structures on those spaces. Right. So you look at ancient things, you know, like, you know, people talk about Stonehenge, but there were, you know, many, many places like that. Right. That are connected to the earth, to equinoxes, to solstices, etc. Etc. Right. Or it's really interesting. Like, for example, in Iceland, there's a place called Tingbit Lir, and it literally sits on a fault line. Right. Where. Where, you know, what is that called? Where you have earthquakes. Right. On the fault line. Yeah. Right. So. So I do believe that there are. And I have lots and lots of examples of places that somehow are already special probably because of kind of where and what they are on earth, geographically or astronomically or geo. Astronomically. Right, okay. Okay. But I also believe that we as humans have the ability to create a sacred space. Right. So for example, I visited places of worship that were literally in a strip mall. Right. That were literally in an apartment building. And so one of the, one of the traditions there, There are several traditions, but one tradition that's really, really good at this is Chabad, Like Chabad Labavature Judaism. Right. Okay. So their idea is they try to plant seeds and grow churches and everywhere. And they have. Have really, really most places, I would say, are in non traditional spaces. And they make them sacred, right? They sort of designate them as sacred. They bring people together in those spaces, they eat in those spaces, they read in those spaces, they worship in those spaces, and they create a sacred space. Jesus and his disciples, though, at that point, because that was. There wasn't necessarily a temple that he was going to. It was people's homes or. Well, and the temple, you know, there was the, the second temple of Jerusalem when Jesus was. Was alive. And then that temple, the second temple of Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 CE. So after 70 CE, both Jews and the early Christians were, you know, meeting in homes, Right. Meeting in spaces that they were declaring, this is sacred, you know, because we are together here. Right. And that makes it sacred. And then, you know, ultimately they started to build early churches, like literal, literal buildings. Right. But so I, again, I hate to always say it's both, but I think it's really fascinating that there are. I do believe there are places that are special, and I also believe we can make places. That's what I was just gonna say. Exactly. Because I. I do believe that we are that big piece of what makes something special. And which is why I said it's not the walls, it's the people inside the walls that make the place special or the feeling or the energy special, for sure. So that's very cool. So has there been a moment in your spiritual journey where something happened that neuroscientist Ph.D. and you simply could not explain? Well, that's an interesting question, I think, in some ways. So I think one thing I can say is that I was probably always a spiritual kid, right? So, you know, and I have two kids. And what I can say is my. My one. My daughter is, I would say, much more naturally spiritual, right. She. She kind of portrays and lives into being a spiritual being. My son, not so much. I, you know, I think of course he's a spiritual being, but I don't think he identifies as that quite as much. I don't think it's as easy for him to tap into. So I was the first variety, right? So, you know, all those religion courses, I found them interesting, right? It was a bit tedious. And I look back on it now, and with some amount of disdain, I would say, but. But I really, you know, I was a very spiritual kid, so I was always really interested in the. That. And so now as a. As an older person, I would honestly say that most of the time I find it mysterious. I feel like I can explain so little. And I feel like one of the things that happened when I was in neuroscience, there's this idea in science, this reductionistic, mechanistic kind of approach that dangles in front of you that you will be able to understand all of these things, right. Eventually, if we just had the right tools and the right methods, we would be able to elucidate and understand all of this stuff. And I think that, you know, in making the switch from neuroscience to more spiritual pursuits, right. I've been able to really live into this idea that I'm not sure we understand most. Most of it. Any of it, right? So, you know, having a family, having children, I mean, even the fact that you and I are here, right? Like, how did we meet? How did the two of us, out of 8 billion people on the planet, right. How did the two of us end up right here in this time, in this place, on this date, that is miraculous. And that I'm not sure. I think we're far, far, far away from being able to explain that in any way that makes sense in a scientific, neuroscience, y. Reductionistic kind of way. Yeah, I can't see There being a formula, you know, like a mathematic formula that says, oh, well, this and this and this. Yeah, right. I mean, and we've all had that experience where you meet someone and you feel like you must have known them, what, in a past life or. Or, you know, you were. You were born of the same divine cloud. Like, I don't even know how to articulate it. But we've all had that. That experience where you just connect with people really quickly on a really deep level. I mean, how do we explain that? Well, that's what I was wondering specifically, too, how. What a. What a difficult time you might have. I shouldn't assume that you do with that. Coming to grips with the. Oh, well, let's just say reincarnation. Oh, no. Where's the scientific proof in that? Well, I. I don't know. But how can you explain some of these things? And just like you said, well, we must have run in the same circles in, you know, another life. How does that happen? You know, I'm going to go on a rabbit hole, so I got to. Well, you know, but I think at this point in human history anyway, I mean, that's all we can say, right? Because we're here and now, so. Right. So at this point in human history, what I can say is that I think we are served well by being comfortable with the mystery. I think that we almost have to be comfortable with not knowing. Because. Because I think there's a lot of things we don't know. And I can pretty much say that we're not going to know them all in lifetime. I don't bet on much, but I'm gonna bet on that. So I think being comfortable with mystery, and I do think that's one thing that religious and spiritual practices both can help us with. Right. They can help us be comfortable with those enduring human mysteries that we don't yet understand and maybe we never will. I really do appreciate your answers to these questions, and I hope they're not too personal in nature. But ever since our first conversation, there's been that for me, I'm naturally curious. Especially when we start talking about spirituality and then you add religion into the mix. It's kind of an accelerant for me to start having more questions. And I really do appreciate your answers. But I do have one more question and then we can get to our musical questions, if that's okay. Oh, okay, good. So in this one. Well, I'll just ask. So I was thinking about this, and if you were at the world's lectern and you're getting ready to have everyone take their seats and start your presentation. What would be the one thing about world religions? And I mean, just one thing that you would let everyone know? What would that one thing be like in a description? If you could sit everyone down and teach them one thing about world religion, what would it be? I think. I mean, I think I'm going to touch on what I already said, which is that I think the world religions at their best are really about helping us to be kind to ourselves, kind to the earth, and kind to one another. I love that answer the first time. So it was fine. Okay. I wasn't sure what. What it would be like. Bill and Ted's excellent adventure. Yeah. No, I feel like. Really, I try. I feel like I copy off of the Dalai Lama a lot. Right. So he fundamentally says the same thing. Right. He says, my religion is love. And so. And so he has a lot of really good quotes about that. So I. I feel like I can't really do better than he does. Wrong with the llama. That's right. Not at all. Right. So as anyone can tell you who's ever listened to the podcast before, this is the section where I get to ask the guests some musical questions. Oh, gosh. Okay. Are we ready to dive in? I guess so. Okay, so what was the first song that you fell in love with from the radio? Oh, my gosh. So, you know, we used to listen to wls. That was our radio station, which they said to stand for World's Largest Store. Is that even true? I don't even know if that's true. But it was. They supposedly broadcast from the Sears Tower. Yes, it did. Yeah. Yeah. So I don't know if that's true, but anyway. Okay, so I'm gonna say the first song that we. And by we, I mean me and my sister, my brother. Right. There were three of us growing up. I'm gonna say American Pie. Oh, yeah. So. Because. Because that would have come out when I was probably about. About 7 or 8 and my brother was 4, and I think that's the first song he ever sung that he knew the words to. Right. And he would go around singing Bye Bye American Pie in the back seat of the car when no one wore seat belts back then. So forget about it. In the back seat of the car singing Bye Bye American what? Yeah. Right? Nowadays, people have a stroke. I know, right? Yeah. It's crazy. How about. This is. Well, well, I'm just gonna ask it. Did your family have a song that everyone Would belt out on road trips or vacations. So. Okay. My parents were not belting out songs. Kind of people. That's what I can say about that. But one of the songs. Yeah, my sister and I were. So. Okay. We were born in the 60s, right, right. So one of the songs. And we did. My parents, we camped and we had a pop up camper growing up. And so we drove all the way from Illinois out to Idaho. Right. And then down to Salt Lake City. And then all the way back, we would drive down to Florida. We drove to D.C. so we were. And there was nothing to do in the car back then. Right. You just sat there and looked out the window. That's right. And so what. One of the songs we would sing, which was really interesting was Janis Joplin's Mercedes Benz. Oh, lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz? Oh my goodness. And what's so. And it's a very simple song. Right. So of course we could just, you know, scream at the top of our lungs, which my parents did not appreciate. But what's really funny about that song in particular was not only did my sister and I sing it in the car, but I ended up singing that as a bedtime song to both of my kids. Get out of here. No, that was one of the songs I would sing. Wow. Yeah. Isn't that crazy? Yeah. That's awesome though. I love that. Yeah. And by the way, your. The, Your first two answers were the first of its. Of their kind. Yeah. Nobody else. Okay. I feel like they're typical, but I guess. No, no. We'll just keep going then. Yeah, absolutely. I'm. I'm liking this. So what was your favorite song that you and your friends would belt out in your senior year of high school? Okay, this. I have a couple of really clear answers on this one. So I think I mentioned I went to a Catholic high school. Right. So the song we would belt out was Billy Joel's Only the Goods are Young. That was it. But my. But my senior prom, right. Was the theme was Celebrate from Cool in the Gang, and we actually had a couple Cool in the Gang cover band as our prom band my senior year. See, I knew you would like that. Oh my gosh, I do. So I'm. I'm. I'm a huge Billy Joel fan, first and foremost, I'll say that. And secondly, I've also seen Cool in the Gang three or four times. So funny. That's great. That's awesome. My. I love R B, but I've seen Billy Joel probably a Dozen times. Times. Which means I've got a problem. But, no, I don't think so. But actually, funny enough, this is totally an aside, but one of the songs my husband would sing to my kids at bedtime was Piano Man. Oh, no kidding? That's. Isn't that crazy? Oh, my gosh, I love that. Again, you can't go wrong with Billy Joel. Right? Exactly. You cannot. One of my dear friends who passed, her name's Pat Longo. She was a mentor and a trainer teacher. Long Island, N.Y. grew up and went to school and was classmates with Billy Joel. And her husband Vincent was like, close friends. Hang out with Billy Joel at his house. And she told the story about them fighting and messing around and Billy's mom chasing him out of the house because he hurt Billy's hand. So that's a good story. That's pretty cool. That's pretty awesome. Careful. I don't want to. I don't want to get too carried away with the details. If she were here, I'd let her. Yeah, let it rip. Let's go. Right. Okay. So did your musical taste change after high school, while you're in college? Okay, so in high. In high school, we just listened to top 40, right. We literally listened to the radio. So it was all top 40. Then when I went to college, which was in New England and far away, I. I have to say that I did not listen to a lot of music in college, but I did become. I learned a lot about a whole bunch of other people who weren't top 40 pop artists. Right. Like, I don't know, REM and shown Arma trading and stuff like that. But I think now I really mostly enjoy. Well, I enjoy a lot of different things, but I do like singer songwriter. I really like singer songwriter stuff, and I would. I didn't even know there was really such a thing as singer songwriter when I was in high school. Yeah, yeah, it was just. It was Journey and Kiss and, you know, for sure, Night Ranger sticks. Sammy Hager. That's right. Yeah. It was the 80s, so. Yeah, that's exactly. Exactly. Ronnie James Dio, all the those guys. So let's talk about positive juices. What song gets your positive juices flowing? Okay, so I'm gonna say. So what really gets my positive juices flowing is singing really loudly in the car by myself. I drive a really fun. I drive a really fun car, and I drive a red Mustang convertible. And I can put the top down and I can sing really loudly. I'm gonna go with classic rock. I'm gonna go with classic rock. So like Bohemian Rhapsody. Oh, yeah, Meatloaf. You know, Leonard Cohen's Hallelujah. Like, I really like. I really like story songs. Right. I love stories. And so I kind of like story songs where it's fun to learn all the words and sing them. Like Glory Days. Bruce Springsteen, Glory Days, Stuff like that. That's what I really. Or what's the other one? Oh, Joe Walsh's Life's Been Good to Me so far. Right. Yeah. See, like those kinds of songs where there's sort of a verse and there's several verses and you can learn all the words and you can just sing them really loudly. Love that. That is what makes me happy. I can tell you this. However. So I sang. I went to school for opera, but later on was in bands and things like that. Like that. Some of the most difficult songs to sing are those songs because they're not repeat, you know. Yeah, they're going off and. Oh, geez. Did I just do the third verse where the second verse should have been, or the four? Yeah, so. Yeah, because they're kind of toxing them, right. Sometimes. And so it's fun to just sing along with them because then you could just do it the way they do it. If you're trying to do it on your own, I could see where that would be bit a little. Little difficult. But, yes, I would pick classic rock for that kind of stuff. You can't beat it. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. So I'm gonna go to. I'm gonna skip ahead a little bit. I'm gonna ask two more questions. Yes. And then I'll tell you something about songs. Fantastic. Okay. What is a song you believe could change the way people think or feel about the world if they just. Just took a moment to listen to the lyrics? I feel badly about this a little bit because I'm gonna say something that I think is very trite, but I do believe it in my heart that we're still with John Lennon's Imagine. I really think, because people talk to me all the time about. I always say John Lennon was not wrong. Right. Imagine a world with no religions. People think because I teach people about the world's religions that I'm somehow attached to them in a certain way. And I'm really not. I'm really not. Yeah, I really feel like. I really feel like if we could all figure out how to be connected to the divine and one another in the earth and be kind without the structure of religion, I'm actually fine with that. Right. And I'm actually fine with no countries as well. Like, I'm one of those people. Like, we need to get rid of police departments. We need to get rid of countries. Like, eventually, I hope that humans can figure out how to sort of act right, so to speak, and how to deal with our animalistic natures enough that we kind of don't need these structures anymore. We don't need governments, we don't need countries, we don't need police departments, and we don't need religions. That is my hope. Like, maybe, I don't know, what, 300,000 years down the road again, probably not in my life time, but ultimately I do believe that that is what we should be aiming for. Well, you sent me down the rabbit hole right away when you were. All of a sudden, I just, like, notice. I'm like, going, okay, I'm looking up in the corner. Stop and turn around. Yeah, you did. Damn it. Again. So here's the last one. And this. This is my favorite. I know everybody says you. You shouldn't say you have a favorite child. So I try to put that in context with these questions. But this is really my favorite anyway. And I do have a. No, I can't say that. I have three boys. You do have a favorite child. I love them all the same. Not really. Brady. Oh, my gosh. That's hilarious. No, I'm just teasing. Wink, wink. Yes. So. So sometimes there are songs you hear that ring so true that they can stop you in your tracks. And they sound like the song's lyrics were either written specifically for you or by you. What's that song? That's such a hard question. I think one of the boy. I think I'm going to have to say Tom Petty's Wildflower Flowers. Ooh. So this. I. Believe me, I'm a strange person, and there are a lot of people who will agree with me on that. So. So, yeah, So I. I'm known for sort of not thinking about the world the way most other people think about the world. So. Wildflowers. Because. Yeah. I think for me personally. For me personally, this idea of being responsible and getting good grades and going to Brown and getting a PhD and being a professor and doing all that stuff. Right. Versus just running free in a field of wildflowers. I feel like, for me, that's been the tension in my life always. And this idea of being responsible versus just, just, just being. And I think that, yes, I think I always. Me personally, always live with that tension. Awesome. And so. And so that's. That I'M sure there are a lot of other songs that speak to that, but that's a song that speaks to me about that. That's it. I was just gonna say that could be the case for other people. But what, what's the name of the song that does that to you? Right, what's the name of the song? Exactly, exactly. You're great. So you were gonna. You wanted to say something about music. So what I will say is that a couple things. My favorite spiritual practice is singing. And so. And so really my favorite spiritual practice is any kind of singing. I'll. I'll sing hymns, I'll sing gospel tunes. I'll sing. I really love kirtan call and response chanting in the Hindu traditions. And so. And, and actually, if it's not in English, that's even better for me. Me. Because if it's not in English, then I'm not busy thinking about the words. Exactly. I was just going to say that. And that's the thing. You can really just get the whole feel from the frequency and the vibrations that are occurring. And that's why a lot of people, like when they're trying to drop into those spaces like the solfeggio music, because there aren't necessarily words. There can be chanting that goes along with that, that. But yeah, for that reason, that's. Yeah. There's some really cool chanting in the Christian tradition called Taizei. I don't know if you've ever heard of it. It's really beautiful. Started by some monks in France. And then there's also. There's also a spiritual singing tradition in Judaism as well that I've done. So. Yeah, so any and all of those things are good for me. That's very cool. It's good throat chakra work, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good throat chakra stuff. Well, thank you for sharing. That was, that was wonderful. I, I really do appreciate your time and your answers. Clearly some thought was given to those, so thank you. Well, just a little bit. But, you know, they're kind of straightforward questions in the sense that, you know, it's my personal opinion and came from my own life, so there you go. And that's what it's about. It's about giving people a little, little peek behind the curtain of you. So that was very cool. So do you still love opera music? You know, I would say that I certainly have a respect and an appreciation for it. I really do. So I used to, I would sing when my oldest boy, I would sing him those. It could be art songs or German leader But more. More often than not, it would be arias and things of that nature, and some he would like, and then some he would hide underneath the piano. Don't use the big voice, dad. Don't use them. So that's funny. Yeah, it would scare him a little bit. But, yeah, like I said, I have an appreciation. I have an appreciation for all music because I know what it takes to create it. And I also had this conversation with somebody recently that there is. Oh, with Panache Desai. Last week, I had a conversation with him that I said, I truly believe there is a difference between a musician and an artist, because a musician is like a mechanic. And no, no, that's not a negative comment because you get the job done, right? You need this to get the job done. But an artist can extract things that you never knew to be possible, either from an instrument or a vocal phrase and can just leave you breathless. And that's the difference. There are a few artists and many musicians, not many good mechanics. So maybe that wasn't a good analogy. But, I mean, one of the things that's so amazing to me about music is how many people engage in some way with music and it's not always just listening, right. Playing, producing music, when no one, almost no one. Right. Makes money doing that. And yet, as humans, we just have this musical need, right? And the same thing with storytelling, right. Most people don't make money telling stories, and yet it's just such a part of who we are as humans. Music and story learn. Believe it. Oh, yeah, there's research on that, actually. Actually, yeah, there's. I think that that's where things. When you have that instructor that embeds storytelling into the lessons, those are things that are remembered and recalled and be. They're able to put application, you know, just apply that to whatever it is that you're being taught. And I think that there's something to that. But anyway, there is absolutely something to that. And what I can tell you go back all the way to psalm science, is that there's scientific research to show that that is the case. Well, that's good to know. Yeah, I. I like that. I like when things like that fall into place. Exactly. Right. Sometimes they don't, so it's nice when they do. A lot of times they don't in my world, but anyway. Well, it's just about time to cue the music for today's episode. But don't forget to, like, comment and subscribe to the Drop the Needle podcast to stay up to date on our latest episodes. I'D also like to take a moment to thank everyone again for tuning in today, and I hope you enjoyed this episode. I'd also like to thank our very special guest, ye Garlock for, excuse me, Reverend Dr. Michaela Garlock, for being our guest. Wow. Thank you. Thank you so much for, for having me. Oh, thank you. And thank you for being so good with my, my teasing. I. I appreciate that. So can you do me a favor? Can you let everyone know how they can get in touch with you if they, if they want to reach out? That's right. If you want to reach out, you can visit my website, which is World Religions, the number four world religions for kids. You can email me World religions for kids gmail.com, but you can also follow me on Facebook and Instagram, World Religions for Kids. And I'm not at all off the grid. I'm on social media almost every day. I check all my various emails every day. So. And I love to hear from people and so, yes, definitely reach out and we could be friends. Excellent. So I'll invite everyone to head on over to the show Notes where you're going to find a link to today's playlist as well as all of those ways that Vicki just mentioned to get in touch with her, including her social handles. I'll make sure that that's all on there so there won't be any excuse for anybody to reach out or follow you. Thank you so much. My pleasure. My pleasure. All right, my drop the needle posse. Like Billy Joel says, from the highs to the lows to the end of the show, this is the end of our show. Until next time. Time. This is Jim Alstatt wishing you infinite health, happiness, and the perfect playlist for your life. Thank you again for being the best part of us. Catch you next time.