Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Cold medicine killer: Did cough syrup make sleeping pastor kill wife?

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Cold medicine killer: Did cough syrup make sleeping pastor kill wife? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: zoom dot com legal zoom dot com Climb Stories with
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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace on Serious x M Triumph Channel one thirty two.
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Speaker 1: This young, aspiring pastor charged with murdering his Sunday school
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Speaker 1: teacher wife. What do you mean by what happened? Year
1:19
Speaker 1: old Matthew Phelps arrested after a detailed and disturbing call
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Speaker 1: to one I'll turn on the lights and she stood
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Speaker 1: on the floor between labored Breath's an alarming admission over me.
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Speaker 1: And here's your boy, knife on the bed, and I
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Speaker 1: think I did it. I can't police here. A disoriented
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Speaker 1: sounding caller telling the dispatcher he took cough medicine to
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Speaker 1: sleep the night before. He qualifies that, yes, it looks
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Speaker 1: like I did kill her. The knife is here. I
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Speaker 1: have blood all over me. However, this medicine made me
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Speaker 1: do it. A twenty eight year old man calls nine
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Speaker 1: one one. He says he awakes from a dream, turns
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Speaker 1: on the lights, and finds his wife, his bride of
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Speaker 1: just a few months, dead on the floor. Matthew Phelps,
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Speaker 1: twenty eight years old, just out of the courtroom. His
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Speaker 1: wife was stabbed multiple times. Laura Ashley Nicole Phelps. They
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Speaker 1: haven't even been married a year. Now, let's go through
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Speaker 1: what we know. Cheryl McCollum is joining me along with
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Speaker 1: Dr Daniel Bober joining me out of Florida forensic psychiatrist
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Speaker 1: Dr Bober. You know this, this is really really gripping
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Speaker 1: my imagination because you know, the defense is blaming the
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Speaker 1: whole thing on core Seden cough Syrup. Sheryl McCollum, what
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Speaker 1: do we know about the crime scene, Nancy, the crime
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Speaker 1: scene if you listen to the number on one, cake
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Speaker 1: is he wakes up, He's got dry blood on him,
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Speaker 1: there's a bloody knife from the bed, and his wife
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Speaker 1: is dead on the floor. Okay, you know I want
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Speaker 1: you to hear the nine one one call because I
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Speaker 1: heard something very incriminating in this call. Role got me
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Speaker 1: exactly what happened? I think I killed mom? What do
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Speaker 1: you mean by that? What happened? I had a dream
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Speaker 1: and then I turned on the lights and she said
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Speaker 1: on the floor. How how I'm I'm signs of blood
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Speaker 1: all over me and there's a blowy knife on the
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Speaker 1: bed and I think I did it? Okay, can mean
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Speaker 1: all right, stay on the phone with me. I'm getting
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Speaker 1: there and get left. Okay. I can't beliefe this. I
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Speaker 1: can't belief this. When did you? When did you wake
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Speaker 1: up to find this? I don't even know what time
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Speaker 1: it is? All right, stay on the phone with me.
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Speaker 1: So I just gonna ask you if you questions of Okay,
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Speaker 1: I'm getting some help to you. Are you with Are
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Speaker 1: you with the patient? Now? Yeah? I can see your Okay,
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Speaker 1: all right? How does the howard is the patient how's
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Speaker 1: your She's pretty died? Okay? Is she is? She awakened?
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Speaker 1: All right? Now? Would make you think she's the does
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Speaker 1: she read? She thought? Breathed? Okay, oh my god? Okay
4:28
Speaker 1: do you think he is bond beyond any help? I
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Speaker 1: told Bo too scared to get too close to her. Okay,
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Speaker 1: just down the phone with me, Sam, I'm here with you.
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Speaker 1: I'm here with you. Is Dr Bober? Do you hear
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Speaker 1: between those sobs, the heavy breathing, the heavy breathing, I
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Speaker 1: would argue from exertion, Dr Bober. Exertion. I mean, think
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Speaker 1: about it, Dr Bober, you're the shrink, just a lawyer.
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Speaker 1: But in order to carry this out in his sleep,
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Speaker 1: he says, he would have to get out of bed
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Speaker 1: and go to the kitchen, joy, get a butcher knife,
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Speaker 1: come back into his bedroom, pick his target. It's not
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Speaker 1: a sofa, it's not a chair, it's not a pillow,
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Speaker 1: it's not the dog. It's his wife. He has to
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Speaker 1: approach his wife and stab her with such strength and
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Speaker 1: velocity so as to kill her, stabbing her multiple times.
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Speaker 1: Imagine Dr Bober pulling the knife up over your head,
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Speaker 1: down again, down again, down again, down again. She's found
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Speaker 1: in the floor. She's no longer on the bed, Dr Bober,
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Speaker 1: She struggled. He's covered in blood. What getting soaked with
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Speaker 1: blood doesn't wake you up? All the stabbing, the struggle,
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Speaker 1: fighting her from the bed to the floor, you don't
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Speaker 1: wake up. You get all the way too, you find
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Speaker 1: the light switch, you turn on the light switch, and
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Speaker 1: suddenly then you wake up after all that? Are you
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Speaker 1: kidding me? And he's claiming that dex joan with Thurman
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Speaker 1: is what has caused him to be in a deep sleep.
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Speaker 1: And hold on, Dr Bober, I believe you defended him before.
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Speaker 1: But let me remind you, Dr Bober, this ain't the
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Speaker 1: cold of blue season. Okay, he said he took course
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Speaker 1: to quote feel good his words, not my words, and
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Speaker 1: so he could go to sleep. All right, hit me,
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Speaker 1: give me all you got, Bober. I think the defense
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Speaker 1: is actually gonna have a very difficult time with this one, because,
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Speaker 1: first of all, if he was taking it in a
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Speaker 1: therapeutic dose for a cold or a cough, um, it
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Speaker 1: would be unlikely. I mean, I'm gonna say extremely rare
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Speaker 1: that he would have any kind of reaction like this.
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Speaker 1: And then if he was taking it recreationally, then that
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Speaker 1: would be voluntary intoxication, which is not going to work
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Speaker 1: with an insanity defense. However, that being said, there have
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Speaker 1: been isolated case report. How do we get from shugging
6:56
Speaker 1: coughs are up to insanity? He's perfectly fine the night before.
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Speaker 1: What he got crazy for about? Well, as we know,
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Speaker 1: a substance that, for example, is prescribed by a physician
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Speaker 1: in a therapeutic dose, can cause someone to not know
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Speaker 1: the difference between right and wrong is not prescribed. Well,
7:14
Speaker 1: this is not ambient. This is OTC over the counter
7:17
Speaker 1: cops right, Well, they're they're having people that have had
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Speaker 1: idiosyncratic or strange reactions even to over the counter medicines.
7:23
Speaker 1: But again, this being said, the fact that he said
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Speaker 1: I took it to feel good is incriminating in the
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Speaker 1: sense that he took it recreationally and not for its
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Speaker 1: intended use. And if he was using it the way
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Speaker 1: he was using it, that's obviously voluntary intoxication. You know,
7:36
Speaker 1: it's on the street. It's called Skittles, Red Devils, Triple Triple,
7:43
Speaker 1: you name it for getting high on co store. It's
7:46
Speaker 1: poor Man's PCP Dr biber That's what it is. And
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Speaker 1: here we've got this Kentucky Bible student. Hi is a
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Speaker 1: kite on Cora Satan, stabbing his wife dead, and now
7:57
Speaker 1: he's trying to blame the cough store up. Well, let
7:59
Speaker 1: me tell you, Cheryl McCollum, Bear aspirin, who owns scorcine,
8:03
Speaker 1: who creates Scorcine, is having none of that. They've already
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Speaker 1: issued a statement saying we are sympathetic to the family,
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Speaker 1: the grieving family of Lauren, but we don't know if
8:15
Speaker 1: any violent attacks associated with Corres Sden right. And of
8:19
Speaker 1: course they're going to say their product is safe and effective.
8:21
Speaker 1: I'm sure that was issued by some one of their
8:24
Speaker 1: one of their pr people, you, you know, just to
8:27
Speaker 1: make the listeners happy. I have to be mean to
8:29
Speaker 1: some poor man on the show, and it's you. It's
8:31
Speaker 1: usually that was directed to Cheryl McCollum. Okay, you're not
8:34
Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum. Cheryl, jump in. Here's the deal, Nancy. The
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Speaker 1: now one one call is a money treat for the prosecution.
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Speaker 1: No less than nine times he uses the word I.
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Speaker 1: I had a dream. I turned on the light. I
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Speaker 1: had blood all over me. I didn't want to go nearer.
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Speaker 1: I was afraid. I think I did it. I was
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Speaker 1: afraid to touch her. That's a great husband. That's the
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Speaker 1: either bleeding dad. He goes, I was afraid to touch her,
8:58
Speaker 1: but Nancy, he of her, asked for help for her.
9:03
Speaker 1: He never asked for an ambulance. He never asked them
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Speaker 1: to hurry. No concerns for her. He simply says, oh, yes,
9:11
Speaker 1: she's down on the floor. She he doesn't save her name.
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Speaker 1: He's not upset. He's very calm while he's describing the
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Speaker 1: dream and the bloody knife and dry blood all over him,
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Speaker 1: and dry blood is going to come back to biting.
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Speaker 1: He waited, He waited before he made that call. The
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Speaker 1: blood had time to draw. Okay, Dr Bober, you patiently
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Speaker 1: stood by while I mangled and destroyed the names of
9:37
Speaker 1: the drugs in coorse Satan. Okay, what are they? I'm
9:40
Speaker 1: going to write him out fanatically like I learned in
9:43
Speaker 1: second grade. It's go ahead. Well, why what did you
9:48
Speaker 1: have to say it so fast? Clara faram paneramin is
9:53
Speaker 1: pheramine fin pH m like fin fin yeshs Clara Ferra
10:01
Speaker 1: mean and that one amine and the other one is
10:04
Speaker 1: dextro correct, exactly perfect. I can't believe I got one right.
10:08
Speaker 1: Hold write it down, Cheryl, because we're gonna be using
10:12
Speaker 1: this a lot. Dex stro men nor then okay, I
10:18
Speaker 1: think and dextrothorpan is the cough suppressant, and clara famine
10:25
Speaker 1: is an anahistamine. You know, why is it, Cheryl, that
10:30
Speaker 1: when men get a cold, somehow the wife ends up
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Speaker 1: dead on the floor. And that way is that? You know,
10:37
Speaker 1: when I get a cold, I just blow my nose
10:38
Speaker 1: and keep going. But the wife ends up dead on
10:42
Speaker 1: the floor or the child. It's always the wife of
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Speaker 1: the child. You don't really hear of women chugging Cora
10:48
Speaker 1: Seden then going on a killing spree. What's the deal, Cheryl?
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Speaker 1: Favorite killing spree that they can't remember. He just thinks
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Speaker 1: he did it. He's not sure he did it, he
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Speaker 1: just thinks he did it. Dr Bober, what would you say?
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Speaker 1: You mentioned voluntary consumption of drugs or alcohol? And you're
11:06
Speaker 1: so right. You know, you know a lot about the
11:08
Speaker 1: law for being an m D slash psychiatrist, But voluntary
11:13
Speaker 1: consumption of drugs or alcohol is not a defense unless
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Speaker 1: common toase. And if you're common TOAs, you can't commit
11:20
Speaker 1: a murder anyway. So that means we we normally associate
11:23
Speaker 1: that with going to a bar and getting high as
11:26
Speaker 1: a kite, getting a snootful, as we say in making
11:31
Speaker 1: and getting in your car and mowing somebody down or
11:34
Speaker 1: having a crash. Voluntary use of drugs or alcohol is
11:37
Speaker 1: not a defense under the law. If it was, everybody
11:40
Speaker 1: in the jail house would be raising their hands saying
11:42
Speaker 1: I was drunk or I was high right now, and
11:45
Speaker 1: then all be allowed out. But what about in voluntary
11:50
Speaker 1: consumption of drugs or alcohol? Dr? Bober? Involuntary? What would
11:54
Speaker 1: that constitute? What would be involuntary consumption? Well, involuntary consumption
11:59
Speaker 1: would be either a prescribed by a doctor or be
12:01
Speaker 1: using a drug that's even over the counter and having
12:04
Speaker 1: what we call an idiosyncratic or some odd reaction to
12:06
Speaker 1: the drug. But the fact that the nine one one
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Speaker 1: calls and then he states in this call that he
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Speaker 1: used it to feel good or to get high. I'm paraphrasing, uh,
12:16
Speaker 1: that is going to hurt the defense because it seems
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Speaker 1: like he was using it for recreational purposes and not
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Speaker 1: therapeutic purposes. With me is doctor Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrists
12:25
Speaker 1: out of Florida, and Cheryl McCollum director of the Cold
12:29
Speaker 1: Case Institute. You know, guys, you know he's getting lost
12:33
Speaker 1: in the sauce. Is the the woman? The wife Lauren.
12:39
Speaker 1: The night before, she was posting a Facebook video of
12:43
Speaker 1: a candle she sold candles for since s C E
12:48
Speaker 1: S C A N T S Y you know, um
12:55
Speaker 1: and all of her friends saw it. She was in
12:58
Speaker 1: perfectly good spirits. P Well taught to her on the
13:00
Speaker 1: phone late the night before. Everything was fine. They'd only
13:04
Speaker 1: been married since November. And this guy, Um Cheryl attended
13:11
Speaker 1: Clear Creek Baptist Bible College in Kentucky. I'm I'm remembering
13:16
Speaker 1: that off the top of my head. Where he studied
13:18
Speaker 1: evangelism and missions work. She was a Sunday school teacher.
13:22
Speaker 1: I don't know how that factors into this, if at all,
13:27
Speaker 1: but I know that he was working for a lawn service. Hey,
13:31
Speaker 1: there's nothing wrong with that. I cut plenty of lawns myself.
13:36
Speaker 1: But why did he go to all that study and
13:39
Speaker 1: he's out raking people's yard? Why isn't he? I mean,
13:44
Speaker 1: what happened? Did he not finish? Did he drop out?
13:48
Speaker 1: Was he kicked out? Did he crack under the stress?
13:50
Speaker 1: What what happened? I mean? There's so many questions I have.
13:53
Speaker 1: Charl would go on, I have a top of questions
13:55
Speaker 1: to Nancy. But I'm gonna go back to that now.
13:57
Speaker 1: And when one call again where he goes into great
14:00
Speaker 1: detail describing the night. It's got blood all over it,
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Speaker 1: it's on the bed. He never described her having blood
14:08
Speaker 1: all over her. Oh, it's all about him. I've got
14:12
Speaker 1: blood on me boo hoo, and I'm afraid to touch her. Guys,
14:16
Speaker 1: listen to what the judge said. He has been in
14:19
Speaker 1: court in the last hours, and the judge gives a
14:22
Speaker 1: warning you are mad youself on account of the murder. Sir,
14:31
Speaker 1: you can receive it dat anly our life about the
14:34
Speaker 1: possibility and parole. Now, your name is court be is
14:38
Speaker 1: going to be seption murders going fit at nine o'clock.
14:43
Speaker 1: Dr Bober, You're right again. We see the defense shaping
14:48
Speaker 1: up right now. Listen to what the defense attorneys had
14:52
Speaker 1: to say. They couldn't wait to get down the courthouse
14:55
Speaker 1: steps before they issue a statement. Listen, we have to
14:58
Speaker 1: ask everybody to wiser of judgment in this particular case
15:02
Speaker 1: until we're able to develop more. There's there's a lot
15:08
Speaker 1: to this story. I believe that will be told in
15:11
Speaker 1: the future. Dr Daniel Bober Cheryl McCullum, we're on it
15:17
Speaker 1: and now on crime stories. She said that they brought
15:21
Speaker 1: her to Happy Value because she was misbehaving and they
15:24
Speaker 1: tied her to the truck and they pulled there. It
15:26
Speaker 1: was pretty said, I was crying and it was hurt
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Speaker 1: slash Nancy Grace. And now we head north to Albion.
16:58
Speaker 1: A ten year old little on dragged by a rope
17:04
Speaker 1: attached to a car. What beaten and starved and dragged
17:11
Speaker 1: with a rope attached to a car a ten year
17:15
Speaker 1: old little girl? You know it's enough to make me
17:19
Speaker 1: run out of this studio, get in my car and
17:23
Speaker 1: raise to the toyins to check on them this very minute.
17:25
Speaker 1: My children are about to turn ten. They still believe
17:30
Speaker 1: in the tooth Fairy, they believe in Santa Claus, and
17:33
Speaker 1: they believe in everything good in this world. To imagine
17:38
Speaker 1: beating and starving a ten year old little girl, tying
17:41
Speaker 1: a rope around her and dragging her with a car.
17:46
Speaker 1: And guess who was at the other end of that rope.
17:49
Speaker 1: Guess who was at the other end of the rope
17:54
Speaker 1: Her mother, Leslie and Raider, a thirty four year old
18:02
Speaker 1: woman and her boyfriend Gary Bubis Jr. Thirty seven, his
18:07
Speaker 1: sister and his sister's boyfriend reportedly they beat the girl,
18:13
Speaker 1: starved her for months there in Albion, and then would
18:18
Speaker 1: attach four backpacks on her and drag her by a
18:23
Speaker 1: car attached with a rope. Okay, Dr Bethany, before I
18:30
Speaker 1: go to our investigative reporter, Karmen Koyevan down, what and
18:35
Speaker 1: the hey is going on? I mean, how do you
18:38
Speaker 1: even come up with a diabolical plan like that, much
18:41
Speaker 1: less inflicted on a child? And it's the mother. I
18:45
Speaker 1: think she should go straight to the penitentiary and stay there.
18:48
Speaker 1: I agree, Nancy. Did you see these people's mug shots?
18:52
Speaker 1: They looked like they were high, and I think that
18:56
Speaker 1: was happening. It's hard for me to even analyze this
18:58
Speaker 1: because it's so year and so horrific, and the sadism
19:02
Speaker 1: and the torture is so extreme that I almost feel
19:06
Speaker 1: silly analyzing it. But but to best of my knowledge,
19:09
Speaker 1: what I think happened is that these four were living
19:12
Speaker 1: in some sort of a crack house. I think they
19:14
Speaker 1: were all methanthenamine addicts. I can tell by looking at
19:17
Speaker 1: their faces. If you look at the mug shots, they
19:19
Speaker 1: have like red um Swore's red pock marks. Their pupils
19:23
Speaker 1: are dilated, their eyes are huge. And you know with
19:25
Speaker 1: meth addicts, they take one thing and they get obsessed
19:29
Speaker 1: with it. Give them a shovel and they will dig
19:32
Speaker 1: to China. Give them a piece of tape, they will
19:35
Speaker 1: they will tape up their entire house. They are like
19:38
Speaker 1: a dog with a bone. It is the strangest thing.
19:41
Speaker 1: And then they push the envelope towards excitement, just like
19:44
Speaker 1: they they need that that surge of dopamine in the
19:48
Speaker 1: brain that comes from the um, that that activates olympic
19:52
Speaker 1: system in the brain, and they keep taking more and
19:54
Speaker 1: more drugs. I think the torture of this four ten
19:58
Speaker 1: year old little girl was in some way used to
20:01
Speaker 1: activate even more excitement. I know that sounds so perverse,
20:04
Speaker 1: but sada sadism. One of the motivations behind sadism is
20:08
Speaker 1: to reduce sexual and psychological excitement. And they got got
20:13
Speaker 1: obsessed with her, you know, Nancy, As you said earlier,
20:16
Speaker 1: even when they fed her a meal, they doused it
20:18
Speaker 1: with hot sauce. Um. I think of them dragging this
20:22
Speaker 1: little girl behind a car, and I trust it makes
20:28
Speaker 1: me feel like I won't be able to sleep. I
20:30
Speaker 1: can't imagine the trauma and the PTSD this little girl
20:34
Speaker 1: is going to have. Is she ever going to be
20:36
Speaker 1: able to trust anybody? Is she going to be able
20:39
Speaker 1: to have appropriate attachments? Is she going to be able
20:42
Speaker 1: to concentrate in school? What physical injuries were inflicted on her?
20:47
Speaker 1: I would really be interested to know that, Like as
20:49
Speaker 1: she I'm sure she's receiving appropriate medical care. I would
20:53
Speaker 1: think at this point she's going to need to be
20:55
Speaker 1: in some very safe environment for at least a couple
20:59
Speaker 1: of years where she doesn't have any responsibilities, schooling or otherwise,
21:04
Speaker 1: where she just has a chance to recover. According to sheriffs,
21:08
Speaker 1: the little girl was only fed once a day if that,
21:12
Speaker 1: and when she was fed, like Dr Bethany says, they
21:15
Speaker 1: would cover the meal and hot sauce. She would run
21:20
Speaker 1: for the adults amusement, say Sheriff's. When she didn't go
21:24
Speaker 1: fast enough, they would bump her physically with the car
21:29
Speaker 1: they were following her in, or tie her to it
21:32
Speaker 1: with a rope and make her run faster, say police.
21:36
Speaker 1: Before making her run, they would load her up with
21:40
Speaker 1: heavy backpacks, two strapped to each sold shoulder, one on
21:44
Speaker 1: her back, and one on her front. They made her
21:47
Speaker 1: stay outside with no water or a bathroom and beat
21:51
Speaker 1: her if she did not quote fall in line. All
21:56
Speaker 1: this abuse was passed off as punishment and discipline. I
22:02
Speaker 1: just can't imagine what the girl lived through out to
22:07
Speaker 1: investigative reporter joining us karmenkoy E van down, how did
22:12
Speaker 1: this go without being discovered? Carmen, You're living in a
22:16
Speaker 1: remote area, that's one of them, and people are not
22:19
Speaker 1: paying attention to their surroundings. I mean, some of the
22:22
Speaker 1: practices that they used on her was just so offensive.
22:24
Speaker 1: And some of the reasons that they would, in air
22:26
Speaker 1: quotes punish her and use these discipline techniques is because
22:29
Speaker 1: she was trying to get food. That was basically it.
22:32
Speaker 1: They gave her no water, access, bathroom, axis was limited,
22:36
Speaker 1: if at all, and it became a situation where it
22:39
Speaker 1: was absolutely horrendous. She had to escape to a neighbor's
22:42
Speaker 1: house in order for her to be saved. But she
22:45
Speaker 1: wasn't the only one that was affected by this. There
22:46
Speaker 1: were other children in the house. It was a three
22:48
Speaker 1: year old that was found with was scalded with hot water.
22:52
Speaker 1: But as the doctor said, she was the target because
22:56
Speaker 1: there were other children there, but she was the one
22:58
Speaker 1: that they zeroed in on, and it was some sort
23:00
Speaker 1: of sick, twisted plot that they had against her, you know,
23:03
Speaker 1: according to the sheriffs they still quote can't wrap their
23:07
Speaker 1: brains around it. What I don't understand, Cheryl McCollum, the
23:10
Speaker 1: girl's mother is the only one facing child abuse charges.
23:15
Speaker 1: She's been charged with endangering the welfare of a child.
23:17
Speaker 1: To me, when you drag a person by a rope
23:20
Speaker 1: with your car for your fund, for your entertainment, that's
23:24
Speaker 1: an aggravated assault. They would hit her with the car
23:28
Speaker 1: to make her run faster when she was running in front,
23:32
Speaker 1: starving her, beating her. How How is this simply endangering
23:37
Speaker 1: the welfare of a child. Why wasn't a charge of
23:42
Speaker 1: aggravated assault or even attempted murder at it? And why
23:45
Speaker 1: is just the mother charged? Cheryl, That's what I was
23:49
Speaker 1: gonna say. Nancy's clearly aggravated assault. It's clearly attempted murder. Again,
23:54
Speaker 1: You've got if you look at the crime seing photographs
23:56
Speaker 1: of this house, Nancy, there is no evidence any oldren
24:00
Speaker 1: lived there. There are no toys, there's no clicyicle. There's
24:03
Speaker 1: no balls, there's nothing. You would never know that a
24:06
Speaker 1: three and ten and twelve year older in that house.
24:09
Speaker 1: And what I am hoping is the twelve year old
24:12
Speaker 1: becomes the best witness and charges are added. The ten
24:15
Speaker 1: year old girl tied to a car by a rope
24:18
Speaker 1: and dragged down dirt roads Albion, New York along with
24:23
Speaker 1: her boyfriend. You know that's another thing, Cheryl. You and
24:26
Speaker 1: I have talked about this a million times. I have
24:29
Speaker 1: prosecuted child abust beating, cigarette burns, rapes, uh, child molestation, starving,
24:36
Speaker 1: you name it, and the mother almost always sided with
24:41
Speaker 1: the husband or the boyfriend. What why? I don't get it, Cheryl.
24:44
Speaker 1: I'm gonna tell you it's the devil. Anybody that would
24:47
Speaker 1: harm a child needs to go to prison. But a
24:50
Speaker 1: mama that would sit by and watch it and participate, Hale,
24:55
Speaker 1: ain't good enough. You know what, Cheryl? You take the
24:57
Speaker 1: words out of my mouth. Dr Bethany help me out.
25:00
Speaker 1: Why why do women go along with boyfriends, husband's live
25:06
Speaker 1: ins users and let their children be abused? Do not
25:12
Speaker 1: pass it off as drugs? Okay? So there's this complex
25:16
Speaker 1: psychology where often the the boyfriend or the husband wants
25:22
Speaker 1: the wife or the mom all to himself. He resents
25:25
Speaker 1: the children as intruders into the relationship, and then the
25:29
Speaker 1: mother is so desperate for the attachment to the man
25:33
Speaker 1: that she prioritizes that over the attachment to the children.
25:37
Speaker 1: Sometimes there's another layer where the boyfriend may have some
25:41
Speaker 1: sexual interest in the children, and so the mother hands
25:44
Speaker 1: the child over sort of as a favor or a
25:47
Speaker 1: gift to her boyfriend. Often that the psychology of child
25:51
Speaker 1: abuse the and the other layer is seeing the child
25:54
Speaker 1: as being greedy for having needs. So any need, you know,
25:58
Speaker 1: for food, prosustenance, for ner nourishment, for for clothing. Uh,
26:02
Speaker 1: The adults and the household resent that child for having needs,
26:06
Speaker 1: and then they distort and twist the needs into greediness.
26:10
Speaker 1: So so so, say this ten year old little girl,
26:13
Speaker 1: she had to sneak to get food, and then they
26:15
Speaker 1: would punish her for it. So they probably twisted that
26:18
Speaker 1: into so she's such a greedy little pig, We're gonna
26:20
Speaker 1: have to punish her for this. I've heard stories where
26:23
Speaker 1: adults have put chains on the refrigerator just so the
26:27
Speaker 1: children cannot open the refrigerator door, because they feel the
26:30
Speaker 1: child is so unconditionally bad for having needs. And then
26:35
Speaker 1: the other layer, Nancy, is that in these these twisted, sick,
26:39
Speaker 1: perverse households, the adults often choose one child to love
26:43
Speaker 1: and one child to hate. Remember that story many years
26:47
Speaker 1: ago where there was a household with multiple children and
26:51
Speaker 1: one of the boys was chained to the coffee table
26:53
Speaker 1: and starved while the other children were sitting at the
26:56
Speaker 1: table and they were fed good meals. I see this
26:59
Speaker 1: in the news and again and again. In my practice,
27:01
Speaker 1: I have patients who come in and their parents targeted
27:04
Speaker 1: them and then showed favoritism towards the other children. So
27:08
Speaker 1: that's a part of this complex psychology. And I think
27:11
Speaker 1: the final factor is that the children are used as
27:14
Speaker 1: pawns in marital arguments. So you know, if if the
27:18
Speaker 1: let's say, if the mother loves the child, then that
27:21
Speaker 1: the father or the boyfriend will abuse the child in
27:23
Speaker 1: order to get back at the mother, and then the
27:25
Speaker 1: mother tolerates that. Back to Carmen coy E van Down,
27:29
Speaker 1: what happens now? Please tell me there is a chance
27:32
Speaker 1: that these charges are going to be upgraded on all
27:35
Speaker 1: of the perpetrators. Right now, the only charges that are
27:39
Speaker 1: getting is second degree charges on the accomplices. The mother
27:42
Speaker 1: is the only one facing child abuse charges. The good
27:45
Speaker 1: thing if the children are currently all living now with relatives,
27:48
Speaker 1: and as you mentioned, we're hoping that they're getting their
27:50
Speaker 1: proper medical care that they need at this moments based
27:54
Speaker 1: in time. But at this moment, there is no sight
27:57
Speaker 1: of the fact that there's going to be aggravated assault
28:00
Speaker 1: or any other types of charges that are going to
28:02
Speaker 1: be elevated to the remaining three accomplices. We will continue
28:07
Speaker 1: with our coverage of our other stories, but right now
28:09
Speaker 1: a missing teen alert. Canton police searching for this girl
28:15
Speaker 1: last seen at her residence. She has now been missing
28:20
Speaker 1: for six days. Maci ol Chesky last scene eight a m.
28:25
Speaker 1: Thursday morning, leaving her home in Canton. She is believed
28:30
Speaker 1: to have been driving the car she just got, a
28:33
Speaker 1: two thousand two hund Santa Fe. She's five ft five
28:38
Speaker 1: hundred thirty pounds, green eyes, blonde hair, according to Canton Police,
28:45
Speaker 1: Help us find Macy. Joining right now from crime online
28:49
Speaker 1: dot Com investigative reporter Lee eagerly give me the background. Okay,
28:54
Speaker 1: this little girl, she's only sixteen years old. Her family
28:58
Speaker 1: is describing her as very sweet since if she doesn't. Really,
29:02
Speaker 1: she's a homebody. She likes to hang out with her
29:04
Speaker 1: little brother and sister after school on weekends. She's a
29:07
Speaker 1: referee for a youth soccer team. Um, they're frantic for answers.
29:11
Speaker 1: She has ties to Florida. Her grandparents lived there. I
29:14
Speaker 1: believe it's in Coral Beach, Florida. Um, she has a
29:17
Speaker 1: few friends there that she knows. Nobody has seen her.
29:20
Speaker 1: There's no sightings, no confirmed sightings whatsoever. Um, no activity
29:25
Speaker 1: on her cell phone, no activity on her bank card.
29:28
Speaker 1: It's just like she's vanished. Um. The family is just
29:31
Speaker 1: desperate for answers. They don't know where to turn. This
29:33
Speaker 1: little girl a junior at Cherokee High School. Uh, I'm
29:38
Speaker 1: taking a look at her right now. She's just absolutely beautiful.
29:42
Speaker 1: Macy o Shreky last seen eight a m. Thursday morning.
29:46
Speaker 1: I'm sure her parents think she's headed to school. What
29:50
Speaker 1: happened to Macy. She's never been in any trouble before.
29:56
Speaker 1: She is not responding to cell phone calls. We don't
30:00
Speaker 1: know if the cell phone has been lost or destroyed.
30:03
Speaker 1: If you have any information on the whereabouts of Macy,
30:08
Speaker 1: dials seven seven zero, seven to zero three repeat seven
30:15
Speaker 1: seven zero seven to zero four eight eight three. You
30:20
Speaker 1: work your entire life to help your children, right, You
30:26
Speaker 1: go to work when you don't feel like it. You
30:29
Speaker 1: put your feet on the ground and rush to get
30:32
Speaker 1: them ready for school. Urge them along with homework activities.
30:39
Speaker 1: You name it. Pour all your love, all your hopes,
30:42
Speaker 1: all your dreams into your children. That's what parents do, right.
30:48
Speaker 1: And then one day they make it. They make it
30:52
Speaker 1: too their dream school parents thinking they're giving their children
30:57
Speaker 1: what they may never have had a higher education, a
31:03
Speaker 1: chance to be successful, which so many of us translate
31:07
Speaker 1: to happy. Can you imagine these parents grief when they
31:15
Speaker 1: send their son away to Penn State. He's a smart boy,
31:23
Speaker 1: all a's athlete, the works, the golden boy, the apple
31:28
Speaker 1: of their eye. And he's dead after a drunken frat
31:35
Speaker 1: party where at nearly eighteen hours pass with him lying
31:40
Speaker 1: in a stupor in the floor, where people step over him,
31:45
Speaker 1: punch him, hide his body, basically waiting for him to die.
31:51
Speaker 1: When one boy says, let's call nine, when one he
31:55
Speaker 1: gets roughed up and kicked out. Imagine this life could
32:02
Speaker 1: have been saved if they had just called nine, one one.
32:05
Speaker 1: They had twelve to eighteen hours to do it. In
32:11
Speaker 1: a stunning twist, in the last hours, the Penn State
32:14
Speaker 1: frat boys have been cleared a felony charges in the
32:20
Speaker 1: death of a teen boy found dead after a drunken
32:25
Speaker 1: hazing ritual. Repeat. The frat boys have been cleared let
32:30
Speaker 1: off the hook on felony charges after this teen boy
32:36
Speaker 1: is found dead and it's on surveillance video how they
32:41
Speaker 1: party into the night twelve eighteen hours around his comma
32:48
Speaker 1: toase body. I'm Yancy Grace. This is crime stories, and
32:56
Speaker 1: maybe I'm projecting. Yeah, But when my children finally make
33:02
Speaker 1: it and they get into a college, God willing only
33:08
Speaker 1: for me to get a call like this and then
33:12
Speaker 1: they're let off the hook. I cannot imagine what the
33:18
Speaker 1: Piazza family is going through right now. Joining me. Dr
33:24
Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall, renowned psychologists joining us from l A. Cheryl McCullum,
33:31
Speaker 1: director of the Cold Case Institute, also with the investigative
33:35
Speaker 1: reporter Carmen koyevn Down. Carmen, thank you so much for
33:41
Speaker 1: being with us. Please let's start at the beginning. What
33:45
Speaker 1: happened that night in that fraternity house, Well, that evening
33:50
Speaker 1: they were supposed to be standing up to pledge that evening,
33:54
Speaker 1: and in short, when the gentleman that decided to want
33:58
Speaker 1: to be a part of the fraternity, Piazza being one
34:02
Speaker 1: of them, they were to drink heavily. They fed them wine, vodka,
34:07
Speaker 1: beer after a ceremony to mark their decision to pledge
34:10
Speaker 1: in the organization. Part of that included running them through
34:13
Speaker 1: speed drinking games and things of that nature, and in
34:18
Speaker 1: the process they drained a very large bottle of vodka.
34:21
Speaker 1: There were security video that was recording all of this
34:24
Speaker 1: while this was happening. As you know, Piazza was an
34:26
Speaker 1: engineering student, sophomore from New Jersey, and he was appeared
34:31
Speaker 1: to be already intoxicated. They knew this by eleven o'clock.
34:35
Speaker 1: They had already put him in the couch, they let
34:37
Speaker 1: him sleep. In fact, they had put some heavy weights
34:40
Speaker 1: on him in order for him not to roll over.
34:42
Speaker 1: And quite a minute, wait a minute, so he was
34:45
Speaker 1: already this teen boy was already had been had already
34:51
Speaker 1: been forced to quote run the gauntlet, and what I
34:54
Speaker 1: mean by that it's a speed drinking game where they
34:58
Speaker 1: had to drain a bottle of vodka. Security security video
35:04
Speaker 1: recorded the teen boy Pianza, engineering student from Lebanon, New Jersey,
35:11
Speaker 1: led to a couch at eleven o'clock. Just minutes later,
35:16
Speaker 1: he falls head first down a set of basement stairs.
35:22
Speaker 1: He fell head first down wooden stairs and what did
35:27
Speaker 1: they do? They bring him back up this time he's carried.
35:32
Speaker 1: He is unconscious for hour after hour after hour. They
35:38
Speaker 1: continue to tend let me say to their hurt for him,
35:43
Speaker 1: pouring liquid on him, booze, strapping on a loaded backpack
35:48
Speaker 1: to his chest to keep him from rolling over and
35:51
Speaker 1: choking on his own vomit. By the early morning hours,
35:57
Speaker 1: the boys pictured stumbling from one cow to other areas.
36:01
Speaker 1: He can't really stand up. He falls into one door,
36:05
Speaker 1: then he falls onto phase four first, a stone floor.
36:10
Speaker 1: Nobody does a thing. He ends up falling back down
36:14
Speaker 1: the stairs to the basement. He's again carried back upstairs.
36:22
Speaker 1: At this point they finally call an ambulance. Finally, I
36:27
Speaker 1: don't know how many hours had actually passed. Then the
36:32
Speaker 1: cover up what happened then Carmen, After the authorities had
36:37
Speaker 1: arrived on the scene and they had taken him to
36:39
Speaker 1: the hospital, where he was soon pronounced dead. They try
36:44
Speaker 1: to figure out and put an assess the situation and arguments.
36:48
Speaker 1: The defense arguments state that the jury should have considered
36:53
Speaker 1: other facts, facts that led to some of these dismissals
36:57
Speaker 1: of charges. Believe it or not, as far as they know,
37:00
Speaker 1: they didn't even think that anybody died. They didn't think
37:02
Speaker 1: anybody was responsible for anything, that it was just poor
37:05
Speaker 1: laps and judgment. They say that the evidence that recorded
37:09
Speaker 1: this dress was unforeseeable, and in addition to that, they
37:13
Speaker 1: had heart over and over again that the accompliccence is
37:16
Speaker 1: a matter of law. That they didn't think that there
37:18
Speaker 1: was anything wrong with what was going on. How can
37:22
Speaker 1: you not know something's wrong, Cheryl McCollum. Timothy tim Piazza
37:27
Speaker 1: had had severe head trauma according to the hospital, and
37:32
Speaker 1: a shattered spleen. He died of traumatic brain injury, Cheryl.
37:39
Speaker 1: They knew something was terribly wrong, Nancy, when they flashed
37:42
Speaker 1: water in his face and he wouldn't wake up, when
37:44
Speaker 1: they lifted his arm and it dropped back down, when
37:47
Speaker 1: they put a weight on him so he wouldn't keep
37:49
Speaker 1: rolling off the sofa and choked on his own vomit.
37:52
Speaker 1: They knew, they knew something was wrong. They slapped that
37:55
Speaker 1: child in the face, repeatedly trying to wake him up.
37:58
Speaker 1: They tried to regress, They hid alcohol, They covered this
38:03
Speaker 1: crime up. They even repurchsed on their phone. You know,
38:07
Speaker 1: head injuries and vomit and what's wrong with this guy
38:11
Speaker 1: who's cold to the touch. They knew and they did nothing.
38:15
Speaker 1: They did nothing to help him at all. Wait a minute,
38:18
Speaker 1: what did they research during this time? Head injuries? What else?
38:21
Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum. If he was cold to the touch and
38:26
Speaker 1: you know, extensive vomiting, they researched what could be going
38:29
Speaker 1: on with this guy? The problem is they never called
38:32
Speaker 1: for help. The very people that could help them, they
38:35
Speaker 1: didn't call. They didn't want any authorities there. Dr Bethany
38:40
Speaker 1: Marshall's psychologists joining me out of l A. When you
38:43
Speaker 1: tie a backpack, a loaded backpack to somebody's chest to
38:47
Speaker 1: keep them from rolling over and choking on their own
38:50
Speaker 1: vomit um, how can you do that and not know
38:53
Speaker 1: something's horribly wrong? I so agree with you, Nancy. These
38:58
Speaker 1: boys were co enough to make a very sophisticated plan.
39:03
Speaker 1: They carried him up the stairs twice. They weighed him
39:07
Speaker 1: down with a backpack so that he wouldn't vomit Um
39:10
Speaker 1: as the crime scene reporter or the reporter, and Sary
39:13
Speaker 1: McCollum was saying that they did these searches on their phone.
39:16
Speaker 1: These boys were sober, Nancy, and so I think we
39:19
Speaker 1: need to reframe our thinking about this entire incident. We're
39:23
Speaker 1: thinking of it as a hazing. I don't think that
39:25
Speaker 1: this as a hazing at all. I think of this
39:27
Speaker 1: as a cover up for a brutal attack. And um,
39:32
Speaker 1: as a psychoanalyst, I try to think about what is
39:34
Speaker 1: the group psychology behind an attack like this. And usually
39:38
Speaker 1: with with men or or boys, you have one very
39:42
Speaker 1: strong ringleader, either like the sociopath or a very domineering
39:47
Speaker 1: person who gets all the other young men to rally
39:50
Speaker 1: around him and want to be just like him, and
39:53
Speaker 1: pretty soon there's this powerful group psychology whether where they're
39:57
Speaker 1: all engaging in the attack to together. And you know
40:00
Speaker 1: the other thing about this school, I was reading up
40:02
Speaker 1: on this the other day that these of fraternities are
40:06
Speaker 1: considered independent from the school. That's what the school is saying,
40:09
Speaker 1: that these these fraternities stand on their own, so the
40:12
Speaker 1: school is not responsible. According to the school, however, a
40:16
Speaker 1: part of the school program is that that that they
40:19
Speaker 1: they in their school curriculum. They let these students have
40:23
Speaker 1: time away from classes to pledge to go through those
40:26
Speaker 1: hazing rituals. So in a sense, the school is coluding
40:30
Speaker 1: with these brutal attacks. There was one report where in
40:34
Speaker 1: one of the sororities, a group of girls took two
40:36
Speaker 1: girls behind a building, kicked them, beat them, punched them,
40:41
Speaker 1: stepped on their heads and their necks. So this is
40:43
Speaker 1: not hazing, Nancy, this is brutality, This is envy, this
40:47
Speaker 1: is attacks, and the school is sort of looking the
40:50
Speaker 1: other way while all of this takes place right next
40:52
Speaker 1: to their campus. You know, Dr bethany Um, I was
40:57
Speaker 1: lucky in college. I was independent for two years of
41:02
Speaker 1: college and was attached to a sorority for two years
41:06
Speaker 1: of college. And don't laugh at me, ladies, Okay, but
41:11
Speaker 1: what my sorority did to me. They sent me uh cards,
41:16
Speaker 1: when I had tests, They sent me violence. They um
41:21
Speaker 1: surprised me at six o'clock in the morning with all
41:23
Speaker 1: the pledges and took us out to a pancake breakfast.
41:27
Speaker 1: That's what they did. It was fun. And I had
41:32
Speaker 1: gone away to college and did not know one person
41:35
Speaker 1: except a boy that parents worked a farm near our
41:40
Speaker 1: place in Making, Georgia, and he lived across campus. I
41:44
Speaker 1: knew not a soul, and these girls were so nice
41:47
Speaker 1: to me. Um it was a pie. And for those
41:53
Speaker 1: two years I was friends with them and they could
41:57
Speaker 1: not have been nicer to me. For two years was
42:00
Speaker 1: independent worked in the library at my alma Motomers University.
42:04
Speaker 1: And you know that's when Bethany, as you know very well,
42:09
Speaker 1: I was with Keith, my fiance that was then murdered.
42:14
Speaker 1: So I got to see both sides of college life.
42:17
Speaker 1: But I never saw anything at all like this. I
42:23
Speaker 1: don't know why we keep causing calling it a hazing ritual,
42:26
Speaker 1: because Bethany, Cheryl Carmen, Carmen, you already know all this.
42:31
Speaker 1: One of the fraternity brothers is shown on tape examining Piazza,
42:35
Speaker 1: making animated gesture. Then he told the grandeur he saw
42:38
Speaker 1: a bruise on Tim's chest and that Tim was thrashing
42:42
Speaker 1: and making weird movements. He told all the guys there
42:46
Speaker 1: Tim needs helping his medical care. That's when other members
42:50
Speaker 1: shoved him and told him to get out. He then
42:54
Speaker 1: goes to the vice president, who also told him to
42:57
Speaker 1: get out. One frattorney member actually said a group message
43:01
Speaker 1: saying tim might actually be a problem. He fell fourteen
43:04
Speaker 1: ft down a flight of stairs, hair first, going to
43:10
Speaker 1: need help. They slap him in the face. One brother
43:15
Speaker 1: tackles another onto the couch and lands on top of him,
43:18
Speaker 1: who's still laying there unconscious. He starts vomiting, which is
43:22
Speaker 1: a very bad stage when you start vomiting while you're
43:26
Speaker 1: in a coma, or when you're common toast. At about
43:28
Speaker 1: one thirty a m. That's when they attached the backpack
43:32
Speaker 1: to him. He rolls off the couch, so they slam
43:36
Speaker 1: him body slam him on the couch, and minutes later
43:40
Speaker 1: he put pushes his right hand. A brother pushes his
43:44
Speaker 1: right hand down on Piazza's abdomen. He rolls to the floor.
43:48
Speaker 1: His legs are moving. He tries to get to his feet.
43:52
Speaker 1: The backpack comes off, but he falls back and he
43:54
Speaker 1: hits his head on the floor again. He's on the
43:58
Speaker 1: floor in a fee total position. He gets on his knees,
44:03
Speaker 1: grabbing his abdomen. He tries to stand up but falls
44:08
Speaker 1: face down onto the floor again. He staggers into the lobby,
44:13
Speaker 1: falls headfirst into an iron railing, landing on a stone floor.
44:18
Speaker 1: He tries to get out the front door. He spends
44:22
Speaker 1: about six minutes on his knees with his head in
44:25
Speaker 1: his hands. He rolls to his side, clutching his stomach.
44:30
Speaker 1: A forensic pathologist estimates his blood alcohol between point one
44:35
Speaker 1: nine and point two four for attorney. Brothers are seen
44:39
Speaker 1: on surveillance video stepping over his body lying in the floor,
44:46
Speaker 1: stepping over him, coming in and out. They walk all
44:51
Speaker 1: around him. Piazza tries again to stand, He falls down
44:55
Speaker 1: three steps and the brothers leave him on the floor.
45:01
Speaker 1: A fellow pledge videotapes him before leaving the house. Why
45:07
Speaker 1: he keeps falling every time he stands up. It's just heartbreaking.
45:13
Speaker 1: He's trying to get out. Then a brother searches his
45:18
Speaker 1: cell phone for falling asleep after head injury, cold extremities
45:23
Speaker 1: in drunk person, and other searches. They call at ten
45:30
Speaker 1: a m. It's almost lunchtime. This has been going on
45:35
Speaker 1: since early the night before. The fraternity president then directs
45:40
Speaker 1: a member to get rid of any evidence. Timothy is
45:46
Speaker 1: pronounced dead at Hershey Medical Center from skull fracture, shattered spleen,
45:52
Speaker 1: abdomen filled with blood. The pathologist says his head and
46:00
Speaker 1: stomach injuries would have been very, very painful, and the
46:05
Speaker 1: spleen injury was likely made worse by the jostling and
46:08
Speaker 1: moving and sitting on him in the last hours. A
46:14
Speaker 1: judge throws out the charges to Carmen Koya van Down,
46:21
Speaker 1: investigative reporter, Is there any way the judge's decision can
46:26
Speaker 1: be appealed? It is my understanding that it could be appealed. However,
46:31
Speaker 1: at this moment there have been no e motions in
46:33
Speaker 1: making that happen. I'm just sick about it. Dr Bethany Marshall.
46:38
Speaker 1: What about the parents? I mean, I always thought I
46:40
Speaker 1: knew it all about grief and loss, having lost my
46:44
Speaker 1: fiance and then my father. But your child and they
46:49
Speaker 1: won't recover from this, you know, you know, because of
46:52
Speaker 1: the twins. When you have a child, you have a baby,
46:56
Speaker 1: you have a child, You raised that child. Your whole
47:00
Speaker 1: life is devoted to the protection and the safety of
47:03
Speaker 1: that child. The minute that child is born. It's an
47:06
Speaker 1: indescribable feeling, you know. I have new moms come to
47:09
Speaker 1: my practice and they tell me stories that are heart wrenching.
47:13
Speaker 1: They have these healthy, lovely, wonderful babies, and they say,
47:17
Speaker 1: you know, I'm afraid to take my child outside. What
47:19
Speaker 1: if the child gets kidnapped? I'm afraid to send my
47:22
Speaker 1: child to school. Um, what what if the child gets molested?
47:25
Speaker 1: And I have to normalize these feelings for them, because
47:28
Speaker 1: when you're a parent, when you're a mom, white a minute,
47:31
Speaker 1: white a minute, white a minute. What's wrong with that?
47:33
Speaker 1: There's nothing wrong. That's what I'm saying. I have to
47:36
Speaker 1: normalize these things. Those feelings aren't normal. Are normal that
47:41
Speaker 1: I'm saying. It's it's okay because I did not take
47:43
Speaker 1: mine out. I would even take him the church till
47:45
Speaker 1: they were almost two years I understand that, Nancy. That's
47:47
Speaker 1: what I'm saying. I was afraid either a somebody would
47:50
Speaker 1: breathe on them or be they kidnapped. And Nancy, you
47:55
Speaker 1: and I were trying back to geryld don't say a word,
47:58
Speaker 1: not a word. M So can you imagine when your
48:01
Speaker 1: worst fear actually comes true? How how devastating that is.
48:05
Speaker 1: And it's not just the brutality the attack, but the
48:08
Speaker 1: fact that these boys are going to roam free in
48:10
Speaker 1: the world, and these parents will never have the future
48:13
Speaker 1: that they hoped for for with with his child. They'll
48:16
Speaker 1: never see him get married, they'll never see him establish
48:18
Speaker 1: his career, they won't have him in their old age.
48:21
Speaker 1: And I just keep going back to the fact of
48:23
Speaker 1: the brutality of the attack. I cannot get that out
48:26
Speaker 1: of my mind. Nancy. If this was in the inner
48:29
Speaker 1: city and a group of black youth, that judge would
48:32
Speaker 1: not have removed the felony charges. If this was in
48:36
Speaker 1: any other setting other than privileged, wealthy boys and a fraternity,
48:42
Speaker 1: these guys would be in jail and they would never
48:46
Speaker 1: get out. We have to call this what it is.
48:48
Speaker 1: It's an envious, homicidal, rageful attack. It is not a hazing.
48:52
Speaker 1: I think we need to even drop that language altogether.
48:55
Speaker 1: I wish the reporters would drop it. I wish the
48:57
Speaker 1: school would drop it, because the language camouflages the reality
49:02
Speaker 1: of what happened. And the other concern that I that
49:04
Speaker 1: nobody's bringing up, that I'm looking at carefully from an
49:07
Speaker 1: outsider's perspective, is the judge's response to this. You know,
49:11
Speaker 1: in fraternity you have people placed in different um places, right,
49:15
Speaker 1: and in many cases this could be very well. The
49:18
Speaker 1: alma mater of this particular judge. There is speculation that
49:22
Speaker 1: there may be some sense of cover up. We need
49:25
Speaker 1: to think about that as also a possibility. They are
49:28
Speaker 1: brothers to protect each other, So we need to think
49:30
Speaker 1: about all of these possibilities as to why something so clear,
49:36
Speaker 1: so evident, it is captured on video and nobody and
49:40
Speaker 1: they are throwing out the most waitful charges out the window.
49:46
Speaker 1: First is District Court Judge Alan Sinclair. District Court Judge
49:52
Speaker 1: Alan Sinclair, What Carmen, what do we know about? Not much?
49:57
Speaker 1: And that's really what's interesting about it. A lot of
50:00
Speaker 1: information has been circulating, but not much has been able
50:02
Speaker 1: to be confirmed, which is very interesting. And that's really
50:06
Speaker 1: where I started looking into and trying to identify what
50:10
Speaker 1: is his relationship with this fraternity? Why would these things
50:14
Speaker 1: be thrown out so quickly when you have evidence right
50:16
Speaker 1: in front of you of what happened. Let me go
50:18
Speaker 1: out to Cheryl McCollum. I mean, it's on video. What
50:22
Speaker 1: more do they need? Cheryld not only jong video. I
50:24
Speaker 1: go back to that text message that was where he
50:28
Speaker 1: says the ASA might actually be a problem. He ends
50:32
Speaker 1: that techns is saying going to need help. I don't
50:35
Speaker 1: think he was talking about now. One morning I think
50:38
Speaker 1: he was saying, gonna need help covering this up. Y'all
50:41
Speaker 1: get over here, get rid of the alcohol, dressed this
50:43
Speaker 1: guy back, get rid of the backpack. That's what I
50:46
Speaker 1: think he was talking about. This is what I know
50:47
Speaker 1: about a District court judge Allen Sinclair. He graduated in
50:52
Speaker 1: nineties six from Shippensburg University. He had a be a
50:57
Speaker 1: criminology at Indiana University of Pence Alvania. That's what I
51:02
Speaker 1: know about him so far, but I'm sure there's a
51:06
Speaker 1: lot more to know. District Court Judge Allen Sinclair tossing
51:12
Speaker 1: out the most serious charges against a group of frat
51:15
Speaker 1: brothers that let a boy die. God willing, it ain't
51:22
Speaker 1: over yet. Nancy Grace Crime Stories signing off, goodbye friend,