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#450 Lauren Bright Pacheco with Michelle Morrison · Wrongful Conviction

0:05
Speaker 1: Tens of thousands of people incarcerated in the US have
0:08
Speaker 1: been wrongfully convicted and are being held in captivity for crimes,
0:12
Speaker 1: even as they adamantly maintain their innocence. What's it like
0:17
Speaker 1: to be one of those imprisoned people, and what's it
0:19
Speaker 1: like to be their ally, the one outside committed to
0:23
Speaker 1: fighting for their freedom. I'm Lauren Bride Pacheco, and this
0:26
Speaker 1: is wrongful conviction. Welcome to wrongful conviction. In two thousand
0:37
Speaker 1: and nine, Michelle Morrison was convicted on a felony murder
0:41
Speaker 1: charge along with aggravated assault, criminal attempt to commit armed robbery,
0:45
Speaker 1: and conspiracy over a two thousand and seven shooting that
0:49
Speaker 1: left a man dead. Now, what if I told you
0:52
Speaker 1: that not only did Michelle not fire the weapon that
0:55
Speaker 1: took the man's life, but she never even set foot
0:59
Speaker 1: in the house where the shoe occurred. In fact, she
1:02
Speaker 1: didn't even get out of the car. And yet Michelle Morrison,
1:06
Speaker 1: at the age of twenty six, was sentenced to life
1:09
Speaker 1: in prison plus five years. Her mother, Cynthia Holland, has
1:13
Speaker 1: fought fiercely for her daughter's release, which finally occurred in
1:17
Speaker 1: August of twenty twenty two, but only after Michelle spent
1:21
Speaker 1: nearly thirteen years behind bars for a murder she did
1:25
Speaker 1: not commit. Cynthia truly moved mountains to get her daughter
1:29
Speaker 1: out of prison and in the process brought about real
1:33
Speaker 1: reform in the Georgia justice system. And we'll get into
1:38
Speaker 1: exactly how she went about that, but first, Michelle Morrison
1:43
Speaker 1: and Cynthia Holland, Welcome to Wrongful Conviction.
1:46
Speaker 2: Thank you, Lauren Hi, thank you for having.
1:49
Speaker 1: Us wonderful listen. Before we get into the event that
1:54
Speaker 1: left you in prison for thirteen years, I just want
1:57
Speaker 1: to find out a little bit more about you, Mischae
2:00
Speaker 1: as a person, your upbringing, where you grew up, what
2:03
Speaker 1: kind of a child you were, and your mom's here
2:05
Speaker 1: to keep you on us.
2:08
Speaker 2: Well.
2:08
Speaker 3: I grew up in Atlanta. My mom and dad were
2:12
Speaker 3: married till I was five. I had a lot of energy.
2:16
Speaker 3: I was more like a tomboy. I loved to hang
2:18
Speaker 3: out with my uncle Joey. That was like my big brother.
2:21
Speaker 3: I would ride a scooter, be in the trees, be everywhere.
2:25
Speaker 3: I just I was real active. I had a lot
2:27
Speaker 3: of energy.
2:28
Speaker 2: In school, I was a happy kid.
2:31
Speaker 1: What made you happy? What was your favorite music? What
2:33
Speaker 1: were your favorite things to do.
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Speaker 3: Ooh, my favorite music Michael Jackson. Michael Jackson and my
2:41
Speaker 3: favorite thing. When I became I was like, how old
2:45
Speaker 3: was I when I was in Girl Scouts? I think
2:48
Speaker 3: I was in the fourth or fifth grade. But that
2:51
Speaker 3: was my favorite thing. My mom was the leader and
2:54
Speaker 3: I got to do everything. It was like I was
2:56
Speaker 3: the mini leader because she was in charge. So I
2:59
Speaker 3: had We went to the zoo to spend the night.
3:01
Speaker 3: We went, we had sleepovers. It was fun selling cookies. Yeah,
3:05
Speaker 3: that was really fun.
3:07
Speaker 1: I'm a Samoa girl and nuts.
3:11
Speaker 2: Yes.
3:12
Speaker 1: So by your teens, from being a Girl Scout, you
3:18
Speaker 1: kind of took a bit of a different path and
3:21
Speaker 1: some of the decisions that you were making at the
3:23
Speaker 1: time might have put you at odds with your mom.
3:25
Speaker 3: Well, the area that we was in, I really didn't
3:28
Speaker 3: care for my school.
3:29
Speaker 2: I just didn't like my school. It wasn't really productive.
3:33
Speaker 3: I had friends that went to some of the better schools,
3:36
Speaker 3: but I couldn't go there first because I didn't stay
3:39
Speaker 3: in the area. I didn't have the address, and then
3:40
Speaker 3: my mom couldn't take me there because it was far.
3:43
Speaker 3: So I kind of just didn't like school at all.
3:45
Speaker 3: I'd be the person that to get finished with my
3:47
Speaker 3: work and disrupt everybody in class then get in trouble.
3:51
Speaker 3: I started kind of like falling back from school till
3:54
Speaker 3: eventually I dropped out of school and I started hanging
3:58
Speaker 3: out with some kids that one of the best kids
4:01
Speaker 3: in the world, But you know, I started hanging out
4:03
Speaker 3: with them because I thought they were cool.
4:06
Speaker 1: Was that difficult for you, Cynthia, I mean, having been
4:10
Speaker 1: the girls Scout leader to kind of having a rebellious
4:14
Speaker 1: daughter on your hands.
4:17
Speaker 4: Yeah, needless to say, it was. But I had two daughters,
4:21
Speaker 4: and it's amazing how you can have two children and
4:23
Speaker 4: they can grow up exactly the same and then go
4:26
Speaker 4: in different directions. So on one hand, I had one daughter
4:29
Speaker 4: that was doing everything in school and loved school, and
4:33
Speaker 4: the other hand, another daughter that was rebelling and was
4:38
Speaker 4: just kind of going through that teenage stuff. A lot
4:42
Speaker 4: of it was because we didn't have a lot of
4:44
Speaker 4: the resources back then to help. When you're being a
4:47
Speaker 4: single parent trying to raise two children, trying to work
4:51
Speaker 4: and everything, it was tough. It was tough.
4:56
Speaker 1: What was the age difference? The age difference between you
4:58
Speaker 1: and your sister.
4:59
Speaker 2: Michelle years she's older than me.
5:02
Speaker 1: You know, sometimes it's it's easier to go the opposite
5:05
Speaker 1: direction of an older sibling, particularly if they're hitting all
5:10
Speaker 1: the high notes. It's a little easier to not follow
5:14
Speaker 1: in their steps sometimes. How old were you when your
5:17
Speaker 1: parents got divorced.
5:18
Speaker 3: I was five, and that took That took a toll
5:22
Speaker 3: on me because I was a daddy's girl and we.
5:24
Speaker 2: Were super close, super close.
5:26
Speaker 3: So when they did get divorced, you know, I understand
5:28
Speaker 3: what was going on. He moved to another state and
5:31
Speaker 3: I had to wait till summer breaks or Christmas breaks
5:34
Speaker 3: to see him.
5:36
Speaker 2: So, yeah, they're right there. You know, that hurt me
5:39
Speaker 2: real bad. You know, I wanted my dad.
5:42
Speaker 1: So by the time you got your teens or obviously
5:45
Speaker 1: have different priorities than your older sister and a bit
5:48
Speaker 1: at odds with your mom. But what were your goals,
5:51
Speaker 1: your thoughts about the future.
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Speaker 3: I wanted to I always wanted to work in a
5:55
Speaker 3: medical field from when I was young. It went from
5:59
Speaker 3: a brain surgeon to a heart surgeon. So when I
6:02
Speaker 3: realized I'm not doing at at school, to a pediatrician.
6:06
Speaker 3: Then it went to an rin and that was the
6:09
Speaker 3: final thing that I was going to do, but I
6:12
Speaker 3: ended up enrolling in the CAB tech for a licensed
6:16
Speaker 3: practical nurse. I went almost a year and I couldn't
6:22
Speaker 3: stay focused because I was dancing in the nightclubs and
6:26
Speaker 3: I was so tired trying to go to work and
6:29
Speaker 3: trying to go to college. And then when I got
6:31
Speaker 3: to math, math has always been my hertes subject and
6:34
Speaker 3: it just was frustrating me. I already couldn't focus, so
6:37
Speaker 3: I ended up dropping out of the cap tick.
6:40
Speaker 1: And so that takes us about to the time when
6:42
Speaker 1: this unfolded. How was that time period in terms of
6:47
Speaker 1: your relationship, Cynthia, were you guys strained before this happened.
6:53
Speaker 4: I was a little disappointed about the things that she
6:56
Speaker 4: was doing. I even remember in my Bible study group
7:00
Speaker 4: we were giving prayer request and I mentioned pray for
7:02
Speaker 4: my daughter because she grew up in the church. She
7:05
Speaker 4: was acculate, she loved the church, and now she's taken
7:09
Speaker 4: another path. And I remember the pastor telling me, don't
7:13
Speaker 4: get so down because you're feeling like you're a bad
7:17
Speaker 4: mother and it's not because of that, and he tried
7:20
Speaker 4: to encourage me, and I was able to release it,
7:23
Speaker 4: and I begin to say well, God, this is your child.
7:27
Speaker 4: What are you going to do with her? I just prayed.
7:29
Speaker 4: And my grandmother, who bless her so has gone on
7:33
Speaker 4: to heaven. She would say, She'll probably be the one
7:36
Speaker 4: to surprise you, because when she was young, she would
7:39
Speaker 4: just do things and say things that were just amazing.
7:42
Speaker 4: So I knew it was inside of her, and I
7:44
Speaker 4: think that's why all of this adversity hit her like
7:48
Speaker 4: it did, and she went through that to become who
7:51
Speaker 4: she is now.
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Speaker 1: Absolutely, And in terms of that adversity before this incident,
7:58
Speaker 1: had you had any substantial runnings with the law.
8:04
Speaker 3: Well, I had got on probation and end up going
8:09
Speaker 3: to juvenile for not going to school. As my I
8:12
Speaker 3: guess my punishment, they sent me to a wolderness camp
8:15
Speaker 3: where I had to go for I think it was
8:18
Speaker 3: six weeks where I had to go stay out into
8:20
Speaker 3: the woods and it was so horrible and I remember
8:25
Speaker 3: getting bait up by jiggers.
8:27
Speaker 2: Oh it was. It was terrible. It was terrible.
8:29
Speaker 3: And I told my mom, I said, oh, I'm not
8:31
Speaker 3: I'm going to school. I'm not going to do this
8:32
Speaker 3: no more. Like my mom was like okay, okay, okay.
8:36
Speaker 3: I was like I'm not gonna do it no more.
8:38
Speaker 3: So that's what happened.
8:41
Speaker 1: Then, in retrospect, those bug bites probably didn't seem as
8:44
Speaker 1: bad as what ended up happening. So take me to
8:48
Speaker 1: the night of June eleventh, two thousand and seven, when
8:53
Speaker 1: all of this went down. Seems almost like a series
8:56
Speaker 1: of bad decisions that snowballed.
8:59
Speaker 2: Well.
8:59
Speaker 3: So, while I was dancing, I did abuse pills. I
9:05
Speaker 3: had a pill habit. They make you hang around people
9:08
Speaker 3: that you think are your friends, and really the whole
9:11
Speaker 3: time they're not your friends. It's the worst thing ever
9:13
Speaker 3: in the world. But I had a friend that I've
9:17
Speaker 3: been knowing for years, and she sold drugs and she
9:20
Speaker 3: had an escort service. We've been friends, probably before I
9:25
Speaker 3: start dancing. We were friends and we were cool, like
9:27
Speaker 3: she never owned the vehicle. I always give her rides
9:31
Speaker 3: to places or let her borrow my car. On this
9:33
Speaker 3: particular night, she asked me for a ride to pick
9:36
Speaker 3: up some money that was old to her. She wanted
9:38
Speaker 3: the two guys to go with her because the guy
9:41
Speaker 3: was dodging her phone calls and he owed her money
9:44
Speaker 3: and she needed her money.
9:45
Speaker 2: And I drove her there.
9:47
Speaker 3: She used my phone acting like her phone was dead
9:50
Speaker 3: the whole time. I drove my car with my driver
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Speaker 3: license plates retro to my name.
9:55
Speaker 2: Everything is to my name.
9:56
Speaker 3: I mean, if I was going to commit a crime,
9:58
Speaker 3: I would never let her use my my phone and
10:00
Speaker 3: traced me. I would have never drove my car to
10:02
Speaker 3: register straight back to my house. But once again, when
10:05
Speaker 3: you're on heavy pills, none of that matters. You're not
10:08
Speaker 3: even really paying attention what's going on in the car.
10:10
Speaker 3: You're just driving. So the two guys get out the
10:13
Speaker 3: car and I guess they go in. Me and her
10:15
Speaker 3: talking the whole time. After they've been out for a second,
10:17
Speaker 3: one of the other guys came in and got in
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Speaker 3: a car, breathing hard, you know, saying I don't know
10:22
Speaker 3: what happened. I don't know if my boy shot this
10:24
Speaker 3: guy or the guy shot him. And I'm looking like,
10:26
Speaker 3: what are you talking about?
10:27
Speaker 2: Shot what?
10:28
Speaker 3: So he's had one foot in, one foot out. I'm
10:30
Speaker 3: dropped about to drive off, and he's like, I can't
10:33
Speaker 3: leave my boy. He get out the car. I ended
10:34
Speaker 3: up leaving because I didn't even know the man was dead.
10:37
Speaker 3: I didn't know nothing.
10:38
Speaker 1: How did you find that out? The next day?
10:42
Speaker 3: So when I was going to go pick up my
10:43
Speaker 3: contacts from the eyeglass place, the GBI pulled me over
10:47
Speaker 3: and said they wanted to talk to me.
10:50
Speaker 1: So that's when you first realized that you were caught
10:54
Speaker 1: up in all of us, that you were now part
10:59
Speaker 1: of the investigation.
11:01
Speaker 3: It took me to the police station and they had
11:02
Speaker 3: me and my friend up there for a few hours.
11:05
Speaker 3: They impounded my car and they let us go.
11:08
Speaker 1: And when did you loop your mom that all of
11:11
Speaker 1: this was unfolding.
11:14
Speaker 4: Actually, I didn't find out for quite some time because
11:19
Speaker 4: my father, who was living in Alabama, was killed in
11:22
Speaker 4: a car accident on June seventh, two thousand and nine.
11:26
Speaker 4: So I was preparing a funeral, driving back and forth
11:29
Speaker 4: to Huntsville, trying to secure his belongings and stuff. So
11:34
Speaker 4: I was wondering why when Michelle came to the funeral,
11:37
Speaker 4: she didn't have a vehicle, and she just told me
11:40
Speaker 4: that it was in the shop or something. I still
11:43
Speaker 4: didn't know until they actually knocked on my door, the
11:49
Speaker 4: GBI and said that they were looking for her about
11:53
Speaker 4: a homicide, and my heart just fell out. And the
12:02
Speaker 4: GBI can remember him, you know, he was very calm,
12:05
Speaker 4: He was very nice about it. He didn't believe that
12:07
Speaker 4: she was guilty of it, he assured me, because I
12:11
Speaker 4: was like in tears. He said, if you know where
12:13
Speaker 4: she is, just tell her to turn herself in. And
12:16
Speaker 4: I immediately called her, and that's what we did. I said,
12:19
Speaker 4: get it straightened out, but we're not gonna run or
12:22
Speaker 4: disregard this.
12:41
Speaker 1: So you turned yourself in willingly.
12:45
Speaker 2: Yeah.
12:45
Speaker 3: It was right after the incident, and I was like, yeah,
12:47
Speaker 3: I'm gonna do the right thing. I don't have no
12:49
Speaker 3: reason to run.
12:50
Speaker 1: What was that time period like for you, from the
12:54
Speaker 1: time you got the knock on the door of Cynthia.
12:56
Speaker 1: Did you think that it was just a formality and
13:02
Speaker 1: you'd go in, get questioned and leave.
13:04
Speaker 4: No. I thought it was serious. Matter of fact, I
13:07
Speaker 4: begin to make in preparations. I went to a bondsman
13:11
Speaker 4: to try to prepare for bail. I got things set up.
13:15
Speaker 4: They told me that with those types of charges that
13:18
Speaker 4: it would probably be serious and a very high bail.
13:21
Speaker 4: I mean, I was scrambling trying to make sure that
13:25
Speaker 4: I could try to not let her go to that
13:28
Speaker 4: awful jail. All the things I saw on TV and
13:32
Speaker 4: going people going to jail and getting killed. I mean,
13:34
Speaker 4: all kinds of things was running through my head.
13:37
Speaker 1: And so Michelle, what was going through your head when
13:40
Speaker 1: you walked in to turn yourself in?
13:43
Speaker 2: Well, I was so afraid. I was so afraid.
13:48
Speaker 3: And I sat there for about a week inside of
13:50
Speaker 3: the county jail till I got my bond here, and
13:54
Speaker 3: I was scared. I had the same perception of prison
13:57
Speaker 3: that my mama did, Like I couldn't imagine my self
14:00
Speaker 3: in there for five minutes, let alone thirteen years. So
14:06
Speaker 3: I was nervous. But thankfully God had me with a
14:10
Speaker 3: good bunkie because we were praying together and stuff.
14:14
Speaker 1: How did the detectives treat you initially off the bat?
14:18
Speaker 1: Did you have a lawyer when you were first interrogated?
14:23
Speaker 3: Nope, And I can honestly say the GBI were very, very,
14:27
Speaker 3: very nice to me. They were trying to help me out,
14:29
Speaker 3: like they wanted me to help them. They wanted my
14:33
Speaker 3: co defend. But I didn't know where she was. She ran,
14:35
Speaker 3: she was on a run. I couldn't help you find
14:37
Speaker 3: her because she was running for me too. I don't
14:39
Speaker 3: know where she was.
14:39
Speaker 1: So yeah, I think there was even an America's Most
14:41
Speaker 1: Wanted episode about her.
14:43
Speaker 2: Yeah it was.
14:45
Speaker 4: And when we went to court for her bond hearing,
14:47
Speaker 4: I brought members from my church. We had three rows
14:50
Speaker 4: of people that stood up for her, and the judge
14:53
Speaker 4: ended up giving her a bond of one thousand dollars cash.
14:57
Speaker 4: When I called back the bond's company and said, sir,
15:00
Speaker 4: I don't need you. My daughter just got one thousand
15:03
Speaker 4: dollar cash bond and I can pay that, he said, lady,
15:06
Speaker 4: you're crazy. Nobody gets it. I said, I'm telling you,
15:09
Speaker 4: that's what the judge says. My daughter's walking out. And
15:12
Speaker 4: she walked for two years. There was no evidence. The
15:15
Speaker 4: GBI said that they were astonished that they she was
15:18
Speaker 4: even indicted because there was no physical evidence against her.
15:22
Speaker 1: So those two years must have been kind of like
15:27
Speaker 1: having raincloud following you because you're still not in the clearer.
15:33
Speaker 1: And so when did the plea deal first come on
15:37
Speaker 1: the table? What were you offered and who offered it?
15:41
Speaker 3: I was offered five years, and that came from the
15:45
Speaker 3: DA at the time. I was offered five years to
15:51
Speaker 3: turn state on the other two guys that were there.
15:55
Speaker 2: So I had two lawyers.
15:56
Speaker 3: I had the lawyer that I hired that I kind
15:59
Speaker 3: of knew, so I kind of trusted him more. And
16:02
Speaker 3: then he hired on another lawyer as a partner, so
16:05
Speaker 3: it was like I had doctor Jeko on Hide.
16:07
Speaker 2: The lawyer I hired, he was like, we're gonna fight.
16:10
Speaker 2: You're gonna win this.
16:11
Speaker 4: La la la la.
16:12
Speaker 3: The lawyer that I didn't hire, he was like, I
16:15
Speaker 3: was a prosecutor before. Take no five years. We know
16:17
Speaker 3: you didn't do nothing, but you was there at the
16:18
Speaker 3: scene of the crime. This is Georgia. Their laws are crazy.
16:21
Speaker 3: So I'm having these two people in my head at
16:23
Speaker 3: this time, and I'm like, oh my god, I don't
16:25
Speaker 3: know Georgia laws. I ain't never been no serious trouble
16:27
Speaker 3: like this. So I'm like, I'm finna fight for my life.
16:30
Speaker 3: That's all I seen, That's all I can see. I'm
16:32
Speaker 3: finna fight.
16:33
Speaker 1: Well, I can imagine if you got a thousand dollars bond,
16:37
Speaker 1: you probably felt that roll the dice. You're innocent, you
16:42
Speaker 1: didn't do it, So why would you take five years
16:45
Speaker 1: and testify against people when you weren't at the scene
16:50
Speaker 1: of the murder.
16:52
Speaker 4: Well, I, like Michelle, did not understand the system. I
16:56
Speaker 4: wasn't clear when they said five years would she be
17:00
Speaker 4: saying five years to murder, and.
17:02
Speaker 1: It seems like, Michelle, you were getting really conflicting legal
17:06
Speaker 1: advice heading into that trial too.
17:09
Speaker 2: I wasn't.
17:10
Speaker 3: Also, I had just enrolled into Georgia Perimeter for the
17:13
Speaker 3: summer course. I was going to start the RIN program.
17:16
Speaker 3: So in my mind, I didn't know they was going
17:18
Speaker 3: to drop my charge to a list of charge. They
17:19
Speaker 3: did not explain the five years. I'm thinking, I'm still
17:22
Speaker 3: gonna have this murder charge. I'm like, I ain't gonna
17:23
Speaker 3: be getting to college with his murder charge. These are
17:25
Speaker 3: the thoughts going in my head. So I'm like, I'm
17:27
Speaker 3: trying to go back to school and do the right thing.
17:29
Speaker 3: I'm like, oh god, oh no, no, no, no, So
17:31
Speaker 3: I didn't I didn't understand it.
17:34
Speaker 1: But that said, by the time you're heading into trial,
17:36
Speaker 1: you're making steps to get your life back into order
17:39
Speaker 1: and take me to the trial. What did it feel
17:44
Speaker 1: like sitting in that courtroom and how did you feel
17:47
Speaker 1: things were going for you? Michelle?
17:51
Speaker 3: Oh, well, I can remember. I remember bits and pieces
17:54
Speaker 3: of it. Being so scared. I still was abusing appeals.
17:58
Speaker 3: I wasn't really in my right mind. I just wanted
18:01
Speaker 3: to be numb.
18:01
Speaker 2: I'm so scared. I really didn't want to be there.
18:05
Speaker 3: So the whole time, I'm just listening to the case,
18:09
Speaker 3: and I'm listening to all the evidence against my co defendents,
18:12
Speaker 3: listening to their extensive criminal history, and it felt weird,
18:16
Speaker 3: like I didn't belong there. I just felt crazy the
18:19
Speaker 3: whole time.
18:21
Speaker 1: And it's two years after any event happened, and so
18:26
Speaker 1: it's April of twenty oh nine, Cynthia. Were you there
18:31
Speaker 1: during the trials?
18:32
Speaker 4: I was there every day. Me and one of my
18:34
Speaker 4: prayer partners sat there in the courtroom, listened to all
18:38
Speaker 4: the testimony. And that's why it was so devastating, because
18:41
Speaker 4: the testimony never really had anything solid, and you think
18:46
Speaker 4: for somebody to get a life sentence, you would have
18:48
Speaker 4: to have a little bit more concrete evidence. Plus there
18:51
Speaker 4: were several times that I ran into the judge shopping
18:56
Speaker 4: at the grocery store, and one time he was right
18:59
Speaker 4: in front of me in the line and he says,
19:02
Speaker 4: aren't you the mother of the girl that's on trial?
19:05
Speaker 4: And I said, yes, tell her to take the plea deal.
19:08
Speaker 4: Tell her to take the plea deal. And I got
19:10
Speaker 4: nervous because I didn't think judges were supposed to talk
19:14
Speaker 4: to you about that, and it really made me nervous
19:16
Speaker 4: more now about the plea deal, and I was like,
19:19
Speaker 4: are they trying to set us up? Or what I mean?
19:21
Speaker 4: So many things kept going through my mind because I
19:23
Speaker 4: was so unsure.
19:25
Speaker 1: Wow, and he was giving you a heads up because
19:30
Speaker 1: I don't even think that could have prepared you guys
19:32
Speaker 1: for the verdict. So take me to the exact moment
19:36
Speaker 1: that the verdict is delivered, Michelle.
19:39
Speaker 3: Oh, well, they delivered my co defense verdict first, and.
19:46
Speaker 2: I was like, oh god, they said guilty.
19:48
Speaker 3: So then when they came back to mine and said guilty,
19:52
Speaker 3: I felt like I felt like I've been stabbed, and
19:56
Speaker 3: it's just I was shocked. I didn't know what to do,
20:00
Speaker 3: what to say, and the judge looked at me and
20:03
Speaker 3: he was like, I tried to tell this young lady,
20:07
Speaker 3: you know he please file your appeals like you can
20:10
Speaker 3: tell everybody felt so bad. I remember a lady in
20:13
Speaker 3: the jury. She was crying. I guess they didn't realize.
20:16
Speaker 3: I don't even know if the jury was told I
20:18
Speaker 3: was offered five years because they said it. After I
20:20
Speaker 3: got the verdict came down, I was offered five years.
20:22
Speaker 3: So yeah, I was in total shock and disbelief. I
20:29
Speaker 3: I didn't even understand what was going on, total disbelief.
20:33
Speaker 1: Were you sentenced right there?
20:35
Speaker 2: And then yeah? So it was right there and then
20:38
Speaker 2: life plus five years.
20:39
Speaker 4: Yes he said life plus five, but I'm gonna suspend
20:43
Speaker 4: the five but still life in Georgia. At the time,
20:45
Speaker 4: she was convicted as a minimum of thirty years.
20:49
Speaker 1: That's a long time, so thirty before parole, right.
20:54
Speaker 4: Before they even look at you.
20:56
Speaker 3: When I look, I heard my mama crying. I've never
21:02
Speaker 3: heard her cry like that before, so that hurt me
21:05
Speaker 3: more than anything because she's such a strong woman, and
21:09
Speaker 3: hear her cry just brought my heart.
21:12
Speaker 1: So you're twenty six years old, but you're still your
21:16
Speaker 1: mom's baby, Cynthia. I can't even fathom what that felt
21:22
Speaker 1: like as a mother.
21:24
Speaker 4: It was like I was in the twilight zone or something.
21:27
Speaker 4: And it happened to be the day that all those
21:30
Speaker 4: days my girlfriend sat with me, but that particular morning
21:34
Speaker 4: I was there alone. I just became hysterical. I just
21:37
Speaker 4: couldn't believe it. It's like someone had taken my heart
21:41
Speaker 4: and ripped it out of my chest and just was
21:43
Speaker 4: stamping on it. I was feeling everything lost, hurt, betrayed.
21:49
Speaker 4: I went to a courthouse where we claimed justice for all,
21:54
Speaker 4: but it's justice for some. I felt I was discriminated against.
22:02
Speaker 4: I felt like their main goal was to win a case.
22:07
Speaker 4: They did not care who Michelle was. They did not
22:10
Speaker 4: care any of that.
22:13
Speaker 3: During that time, I heard a voice. When I was
22:17
Speaker 3: sitting up there, I heard a voice whisper m and
22:19
Speaker 3: I thought it was my lawyer at first, but when
22:21
Speaker 3: I looked and and I seen he wasn't talking to me.
22:23
Speaker 3: A voice whisper and say you're not gonna do a
22:26
Speaker 3: life sentence, but you gotta go through this to become
22:28
Speaker 3: the woman that you need to be. And later on
22:32
Speaker 3: I knew it was God. But at that time, I
22:33
Speaker 3: just was like, who said that?
22:35
Speaker 2: Who said that?
22:35
Speaker 3: And I'm looking around and looking at my mom, and
22:40
Speaker 3: everybody was crying, actually all my friends and family in church.
22:43
Speaker 3: Everybody was crying. And I I remember saying, you know,
22:46
Speaker 3: i'm'a be okay. God got me, and that voice stuck
22:49
Speaker 3: with me, the voice. I took the voice all the
22:52
Speaker 3: way to prison cause I believed that voice.
22:57
Speaker 4: They actually carried me out of the court room. Fat
23:01
Speaker 4: hands and feet. I sat in the lobby of the
23:05
Speaker 4: courtroom and I just kind of waited. When I left
23:09
Speaker 4: there to go to my car, I was I could
23:13
Speaker 4: hear people talking around me, but it was like I
23:16
Speaker 4: wasn't there, and I was just crying the whole way
23:20
Speaker 4: to my car. And I could hear people saying, are
23:22
Speaker 4: you all right, ma'am?
23:23
Speaker 2: Are you all right, ma'am?
23:25
Speaker 4: And it was like they were talking, but I couldn't
23:28
Speaker 4: grasp it, and I just kept walking. I got to
23:30
Speaker 4: my car. I probably cried all the way home. For
23:33
Speaker 4: the first few months, tears were my food, and it
23:37
Speaker 4: was just a lot of crying and a lot of
23:39
Speaker 4: just I didn't know what to do, kind of just
23:42
Speaker 4: in a state of disbelief.
23:53
Speaker 1: You're listening to Wrongful Conviction with Lauren Bright Pacheco. You
23:56
Speaker 1: can listen to this and all the LoVa for Good
23:58
Speaker 1: podcasts one week early and ad free by subscribing to
24:02
Speaker 1: Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. So where were you?
24:16
Speaker 1: Where were you? Signed? Michelle?
24:18
Speaker 2: I was sent to Metro State Prison.
24:22
Speaker 1: What was the biggest hurdle for you transitioning to life
24:27
Speaker 1: in prison?
24:28
Speaker 3: Hmmm, oh wow, just everything. I don't know what was
24:37
Speaker 3: the biggest. They all were big to me, having to
24:40
Speaker 3: live with people who I don't know who. Some are evil,
24:46
Speaker 3: some are good. Just being around these people that I
24:50
Speaker 3: deemed as crazy when I first got there because I
24:52
Speaker 3: didn't know, Like my perception of prison in jail was like,
24:55
Speaker 3: oh my god, like everybody think it's murderous here, so
24:58
Speaker 3: you know, just trying to adjust to that and trying
25:01
Speaker 3: to I guess fit in having to be in a
25:06
Speaker 3: room with somebody, share the same bathroom, sleep on the
25:10
Speaker 3: hard bed, where the same outfit every day, the socks,
25:16
Speaker 3: everything it would, I mean, everything was big to me
25:20
Speaker 3: because it was like a world that I couldn't even
25:23
Speaker 3: fantom like I never never would imagine being in a
25:27
Speaker 3: place like that, So everything was adjustment. Like when I
25:32
Speaker 3: got there, my mom always make sure I have store
25:35
Speaker 3: because if you cannot live off, you live off that food.
25:38
Speaker 2: I would never eat.
25:39
Speaker 3: So and I'm a sweet person, so people see that
25:42
Speaker 3: they try to take advantage of you, so they always
25:44
Speaker 3: asking for stuff and I'm always giving it to them
25:46
Speaker 3: cause I'm used to being nice.
25:47
Speaker 2: I'm used to sharing. I'm used to having things, so
25:49
Speaker 2: I don't mind sharing.
25:50
Speaker 3: So I remember the mental health counselor pulling me in
25:53
Speaker 3: there and saying, listen, if you keep sharing, I'm gonna
25:55
Speaker 3: write you up. You're in prison. Can you understand where
25:58
Speaker 3: you're at. You're not at home. You gonna look at
26:00
Speaker 3: you as week take advantage of you. You need to
26:02
Speaker 3: stop doing it. And I'm like, I'm just being myself this.
26:05
Speaker 3: She was like, well, you're gonna have to do something
26:06
Speaker 3: different because it's not gonna work in this environment.
26:10
Speaker 1: So when was the next time that you guys got
26:12
Speaker 1: to see one another physically, Cynthia? And what was that
26:15
Speaker 1: like to see your daughter behind bars?
26:20
Speaker 4: The hardest part was leaving her and seeing her in there.
26:23
Speaker 4: And of course every time you go to visitation, it's
26:27
Speaker 4: a whole other set of drama. I hate the process,
26:31
Speaker 4: the way you're treated, the things you have to go through.
26:34
Speaker 4: They act like you have committed a crime. So the
26:38
Speaker 4: county jail, luckily she didn't stay there, and then it
26:41
Speaker 4: was a facility that wasn't too far from home, like
26:44
Speaker 4: twenty minutes away, so that we could come pretty regularly.
26:48
Speaker 4: But again I had to go through the process with
26:50
Speaker 4: the guards. Some of them were very, very mean, but
26:53
Speaker 4: as I begin to treat them, in a certain way.
26:57
Speaker 4: They begin to treat me in a better way, and
26:59
Speaker 4: a lot of them I became good friends with towards
27:01
Speaker 4: the end. But visitation process is horrible.
27:05
Speaker 1: How did that change the relationship that you two had,
27:09
Speaker 1: because suddenly it's not just as easy as picking up
27:13
Speaker 1: the phone whenever you want or popping by for a visit.
27:15
Speaker 1: How did it change the way in which you guys
27:18
Speaker 1: had to communicate Cynthia.
27:21
Speaker 4: Well, it was difficult because visitation was limited, and then
27:24
Speaker 4: they always changed stuff as you go along. Phone calls
27:28
Speaker 4: were limited, and prison is expensive. It is a racket.
27:32
Speaker 4: I mean, we spent more money in those years with
27:35
Speaker 4: phone calls packages. They charge you for everything. So it's
27:40
Speaker 4: just a frustrating thing because you even through visitation, the
27:43
Speaker 4: vending machines, the stuff is like a two hundred percent markup,
27:47
Speaker 4: and then you take your chance when you put your
27:49
Speaker 4: money in there that you might get some food and
27:51
Speaker 4: you might not, and then it could be spoiled and
27:53
Speaker 4: it could not and you won't get your money back.
27:55
Speaker 4: But that's all you can do during that little time frame.
27:58
Speaker 4: They gave you communication, You could write letters and stuff.
28:02
Speaker 4: But all of that, there were times when I would
28:04
Speaker 4: send a simple Christmas card. They sent it back two times,
28:09
Speaker 4: but they would never tell me why. They would just
28:11
Speaker 4: keep sending it back and I keep sending it back,
28:14
Speaker 4: and it was just like, you don't know the rules
28:16
Speaker 4: till you break the rules. But then sometimes they never
28:18
Speaker 4: tell you the rules because they change depending on who's
28:21
Speaker 4: on duty.
28:21
Speaker 1: And they change them whether or not it's sparkle or
28:24
Speaker 1: glitter or you never know what's acceptable or what's not.
28:29
Speaker 1: So there's the physical inconvenience in trying to meet your
28:34
Speaker 1: daughter's needs in terms of just basic necessities, but then
28:38
Speaker 1: there's also the emotional toll that having to go visit
28:44
Speaker 1: or to have a visitor come in. That must have
28:46
Speaker 1: been really difficult on both of you.
28:49
Speaker 3: I just always try to be positive and try to
28:53
Speaker 3: see the meaning behind everything I try to.
28:58
Speaker 2: Learn.
28:59
Speaker 3: It's always a lesson and in everything, in suffering, failure, anything.
29:03
Speaker 3: So that helped me out a lot in staying full
29:06
Speaker 3: of hope and faith.
29:07
Speaker 1: That is so admirable. But as weeks turned two months
29:12
Speaker 1: turned to years, and you're not getting any traction, and
29:16
Speaker 1: we're gonna step into Cynthia, the degree of advocacy you
29:21
Speaker 1: did on your daughter's behalf But was there any time,
29:26
Speaker 1: Michelle that it just felt too much for you? Did
29:30
Speaker 1: you have a rock bottom moment?
29:33
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Oh yeah.
29:34
Speaker 3: When I kept getting denied, I fouled my emotion for
29:38
Speaker 3: new trial.
29:39
Speaker 2: Had I think I had three.
29:41
Speaker 3: Different lawyers going back to court, lawyers just taking money.
29:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, I definitely got discouraged.
29:49
Speaker 3: At one point, I remember going into my room and
29:52
Speaker 3: just getting on my knees and just crying out to God,
29:56
Speaker 3: just crying, crying, God.
29:57
Speaker 2: This can't be my life. I refuse to believe.
30:00
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm just crying, crying, like Lord, I not this
30:03
Speaker 3: is not what you got for me. And I cry
30:05
Speaker 3: for a long time, the longest I've ever cried since
30:08
Speaker 3: I've been incarcerated. And I feel like that was my
30:14
Speaker 3: breaking point.
30:16
Speaker 1: Cynthia, there's a quote that you said that I would
30:18
Speaker 1: love for you to explain to me. Family members do
30:22
Speaker 1: that time with their loved ones. Have served every minute
30:26
Speaker 1: of these last thirteen years with Michelle.
30:30
Speaker 4: Yeah, people don't understand that the toll that it actually
30:33
Speaker 4: puts on the family from a different viewpoint. First of all,
30:37
Speaker 4: you carry around sometimes a shame, you don't want to
30:40
Speaker 4: talk about it. You have to make adjustments because of
30:46
Speaker 4: the money and stuff, so you might have to give
30:49
Speaker 4: up some things so that you know that you can
30:51
Speaker 4: make sure that she has provisions. I mean, you're feeling
30:55
Speaker 4: every ounce of that time in there as each day
30:58
Speaker 4: goes by. You not physically confined to bars, but the
31:03
Speaker 4: mental state of just going up there, and when you
31:08
Speaker 4: even visiting those doors shut, your reality begins to sink in.
31:14
Speaker 4: You have to deal with the fact thirty years, thirty years, well,
31:17
Speaker 4: I'd even be alive in thirty years, and that's just
31:20
Speaker 4: a minimum. So all of that, and then when someone
31:24
Speaker 4: says life in prison, there's so much uncertainty. You don't
31:28
Speaker 4: know what the next stay is going to bring. You
31:30
Speaker 4: don't know if it's gonna be thirty years, thirty five years,
31:34
Speaker 4: what it's gonna be. D're on like a track with
31:37
Speaker 4: two two rails. One side is joy and happiness, the
31:40
Speaker 4: other side is sorrow. The key is keeping balanced. If
31:44
Speaker 4: you lean too much to the joy, then you're like
31:47
Speaker 4: in denial. If you go too much to the sorrow,
31:50
Speaker 4: then you can come depressed. But you have to balance
31:52
Speaker 4: those tracks. Because I still had a daughter, grandchildren of life,
31:56
Speaker 4: a job that I had to manage. But then I
31:58
Speaker 4: had a daughter over here that I had to fight for.
32:01
Speaker 4: So it was a big balancing act.
32:04
Speaker 1: What for you was the toughest moment.
32:07
Speaker 4: Well, I had several tough moments. I can't say that
32:10
Speaker 4: the road was easy at all. I mean several times
32:13
Speaker 4: I had breakdowns. But I had a village that surrounded
32:19
Speaker 4: me that encouraged me. So when I was feeling like that,
32:23
Speaker 4: that was when I would get a card in the
32:25
Speaker 4: mail and then have some encouraging words, or somebody would
32:29
Speaker 4: say something to me at church. I remember one time
32:31
Speaker 4: I was at home and I was just so distraughty,
32:35
Speaker 4: dealing with lawyers and all of the system and all that,
32:38
Speaker 4: and I went to the grocery store and saw man
32:41
Speaker 4: with no legs and he was shopping and getting in
32:44
Speaker 4: the car, and it just it just did something to me, Like,
32:48
Speaker 4: you know, I got to start looking at what I
32:50
Speaker 4: do have and try to just be more positive about it.
32:53
Speaker 4: But I mean, it's heavy. Prison system is heavy, and
32:57
Speaker 4: the more I got into it or things I found
33:01
Speaker 4: out that were not right. There are things that are legal,
33:04
Speaker 4: but they're not right. And that became turn my pain
33:10
Speaker 4: into passion and my passion into purpose. So I had
33:13
Speaker 4: to begin to shift it.
33:15
Speaker 1: I love that, and you ended up turning to advocacy, Michelle.
33:21
Speaker 1: Inside you turned to academics. But was there a moment
33:26
Speaker 1: where You're like, I'm going to take this anger and
33:29
Speaker 1: this injustice and I'm going to turn it into action.
33:33
Speaker 3: God said, if I meet him halfway, he'll meet me
33:35
Speaker 3: the other way. So I knew I had to do everything.
33:38
Speaker 3: I engaged in an introspection. I went inside myself and
33:43
Speaker 3: I had to fix the creeks and crevices within Michelle
33:47
Speaker 3: to make sure I was going to become a better version.
33:50
Speaker 3: And that included knowing my value in my worth. And
33:55
Speaker 3: once I started learning myself all over again, reading self
33:59
Speaker 3: help book, taking classes, teaching classes, getting every education class
34:04
Speaker 3: that was offered, I started looking at the world different.
34:08
Speaker 3: My value changed, the people that I hung around changed,
34:12
Speaker 3: everything changed. I knew my purpose, I knew my reason
34:15
Speaker 3: for being there and had nothing to do with my crime.
34:18
Speaker 3: It had every reason to do with me becoming a
34:21
Speaker 3: woman that I needed to be inside of that throughout
34:23
Speaker 3: the environment.
34:25
Speaker 2: That was the plan for my life.
34:27
Speaker 1: Well, you did the work in two ways, because I
34:30
Speaker 1: love how you talk about self acceptance and self love
34:35
Speaker 1: and really learning to value your worth. But you also
34:42
Speaker 1: worked hard on your education. Can you just tell me
34:46
Speaker 1: about what you achieved educationally while you were incarcerated.
34:52
Speaker 3: I took every self help group they had, But on
34:55
Speaker 3: top of that, I took a basic theology course and
34:57
Speaker 3: I took advanced theology course. Got my associate's degree inside
35:01
Speaker 3: of prison, and I started my bachelor's degree while I
35:04
Speaker 3: was there. I also took some trades. I took auto
35:07
Speaker 3: mechanic computer class, and I graduated with my bachelor's degree
35:12
Speaker 3: when I got out of prison.
35:13
Speaker 1: And you didn't just graduate. You graduated with honors, if
35:18
Speaker 1: I'm not mistaken. And now you're working on your masters.
35:21
Speaker 3: Yes, I mean my master's in a positive psychology life culture.
35:26
Speaker 1: I love that. And now, in terms of your advocacy, Cynthia,
35:31
Speaker 1: it must have felt like you were up against an
35:34
Speaker 1: entire system, because you really were, and it's a system
35:38
Speaker 1: that you're absolutely right, is stacked against women like your daughter.
35:43
Speaker 1: Just some stats. According to the Sentencing Project, in the US,
35:47
Speaker 1: black women are locked up at one point six times
35:50
Speaker 1: the rate as white women, and since nineteen eighty the
35:54
Speaker 1: number of women in prison has risen five hundred and
35:57
Speaker 1: twenty five percent and enjoyed Georgia. Fifty percent of the
36:01
Speaker 1: women serving life sentences are black, and that's according to
36:06
Speaker 1: the National Black Women's Justice Institute. So you're realizing your
36:12
Speaker 1: eyes are open to these injustices in real time. How
36:17
Speaker 1: did you turn that anger into action?
36:21
Speaker 4: Well, it wasn't easy because it's happened in two thousand
36:24
Speaker 4: and nine, and for years I carried around shame. I
36:29
Speaker 4: didn't want to really share it with people. I didn't
36:32
Speaker 4: even want to share it with my church family, who
36:34
Speaker 4: I've been going to that church for thirty almost forty years.
36:38
Speaker 4: But there was just a small group that I did
36:40
Speaker 4: confide in and they kind of held me up. But
36:44
Speaker 4: a lot of people say they'll help you, but they
36:46
Speaker 4: don't end up not helping you. I had even a
36:49
Speaker 4: few pastors that would listen to my story so intently
36:52
Speaker 4: and say, oh, yeah, that is wrong, and I'm going
36:54
Speaker 4: to call you, and they would never call me back.
36:57
Speaker 4: So I felt like I was the long ranger. And
37:00
Speaker 4: then in two thousand and eighteen, I decided to go
37:04
Speaker 4: to an event. I was attending a lot of seminars
37:06
Speaker 4: and things like that, but this was one in Nashville, Tennessee,
37:10
Speaker 4: and it was actually put on by organization from United
37:14
Speaker 4: Methodist Church, and in this little group setting, I shared
37:18
Speaker 4: my story and I had never shared it in public
37:21
Speaker 4: like that, and it caught the attention of one of
37:24
Speaker 4: the ladies and they did a magazine article and then
37:27
Speaker 4: it was out. But then doors began to open up
37:30
Speaker 4: so big because I shared my story and from then
37:34
Speaker 4: it kind of just began to happen. But even to
37:37
Speaker 4: the point where someone found us on the internet. People
37:40
Speaker 4: beginning to help, paid for lawyers fees and just stepped
37:44
Speaker 4: up when they heard our story. So it was a process,
37:48
Speaker 4: not an easy one.
37:50
Speaker 1: And would you say that the turning tide for you
37:54
Speaker 1: was going and opening yourself up to that group of
37:59
Speaker 1: people in Nashville and telling your story.
38:02
Speaker 4: I think that's when things begin to turn. When that
38:05
Speaker 4: got published and people began to know about it, that's
38:09
Speaker 4: when other doors begin to open up. I found other avenues,
38:12
Speaker 4: other groups, people begin to donate, even to the fact
38:16
Speaker 4: that our last lawyer was paid for completely by a
38:19
Speaker 4: complete stranger that I didn't even know.
38:22
Speaker 1: Now I've read that for over a decade that you
38:27
Speaker 1: organized and protested for the creation of a conviction integrity
38:31
Speaker 1: unit in Fulton County, what was your driving mission and
38:36
Speaker 1: why do you feel that really should be the goal
38:39
Speaker 1: of every single county in Georgia and beyond.
38:42
Speaker 4: Well, Paul Howard was our previous district attorney here in
38:45
Speaker 4: Georgia who has been the district attorney for years and years,
38:49
Speaker 4: and he is the one that Michelle was sentenced under,
38:52
Speaker 4: and he was getting ready to be up for election.
38:55
Speaker 4: I didn't know how that was going to play out.
38:57
Speaker 4: So Paul Howard, he decides to get this integrity unit
39:01
Speaker 4: because that would make him look good because he's coming
39:04
Speaker 4: up for reelection. Well, needless did he know he did
39:07
Speaker 4: not win? And it must have been predestined because the
39:11
Speaker 4: new DA came to our church about a year before that,
39:16
Speaker 4: and when I talked to her, something in my spirit
39:18
Speaker 4: said she's going to be the one to help your daughter.
39:21
Speaker 4: So when she got elected as DA, we went to
39:24
Speaker 4: her and said, look, Paul Howard had this in place.
39:26
Speaker 4: Are you going to continue? And she said yes.
39:29
Speaker 1: And she's not just a DA, she's a rather famous
39:33
Speaker 1: one at this point on a national stage. But so,
39:39
Speaker 1: Fannie Willis, did you have a hope she would make
39:42
Speaker 1: real change?
39:43
Speaker 3: Oh?
39:44
Speaker 4: I know that she is a person about fairness, and
39:47
Speaker 4: about doing the right thing when it comes to the
39:49
Speaker 4: justice system. And I believe that she would come in
39:52
Speaker 4: and make the crooked places straight. And I think that's
39:55
Speaker 4: what she has been trying to do with his Integrity
39:58
Speaker 4: Task Force. My prayers that county in Georgia would adopt
40:01
Speaker 4: something like this and look at the cases because it's
40:04
Speaker 4: been going on too long, the over sentencing of people
40:07
Speaker 4: of color, people that are marginalized, and it's got to stop.
40:12
Speaker 4: And I got a real education in the justice system.
40:17
Speaker 4: It is not justice for all.
40:19
Speaker 1: And it's almost impossible to fight it on an individual basis.
40:24
Speaker 1: You really do need that oversight to see the systematic
40:28
Speaker 1: corruption that's going on and injustice. So after she was
40:33
Speaker 1: inaugurated in January twenty twenty one, Fannie Willis kept her
40:37
Speaker 1: campaign promise to prioritize the Integrity Unit and revisit cases
40:42
Speaker 1: including Michelle's. And Michelle, you were resentenced in July of
40:47
Speaker 1: twenty twenty one on one charge of attempted armed robbery,
40:51
Speaker 1: basically the original plea offer that was turned down. But
40:55
Speaker 1: by then, of course, you would already spend far more
40:57
Speaker 1: than five years behind bars. What did that mean to you?
41:02
Speaker 2: Both? Well?
41:04
Speaker 3: When I went back to court in July. It was unbelievable.
41:09
Speaker 3: The judge, Amy Maxwell, she is absolutely amazing. I thought
41:13
Speaker 3: she was my lawyer for a second, the way she
41:16
Speaker 3: talked so highly of me, And I was so excited
41:19
Speaker 3: once I heard the judge said, we're going to drop
41:22
Speaker 3: the life sentence. And I'm gonna be honest, No, I
41:25
Speaker 3: did not want to be reindicted for an armed robbery
41:28
Speaker 3: charge because my five year charge was criminal attempt to robbery,
41:34
Speaker 3: which is lesser than actual armed robbery. Armed robbery meaning
41:38
Speaker 3: you had a gun, and it's just it's a bad charge.
41:41
Speaker 2: But at the end of the day, I am thankful.
41:44
Speaker 3: I am thankful because it got me out and I
41:46
Speaker 3: know I can work to try to get my record.
41:49
Speaker 2: Expunged when I get off of parole. But it's so
41:52
Speaker 2: hard with that charge, that charge, it's hindering.
41:55
Speaker 1: It's a different kind of life sentence, you know.
42:00
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yes, it's double jeopardy. It's double jeopardy. I
42:03
Speaker 2: got out of that. Now I'm here and I can't
42:06
Speaker 2: rent from nobody.
42:07
Speaker 3: So when I got reindicted in twenty twenty one, it's
42:10
Speaker 3: showing up like I just committed the crime in twenty
42:12
Speaker 3: twenty one. It's not going back to two thousand and
42:16
Speaker 3: nine where I was originally charged. So people see that job,
42:20
Speaker 3: see that, places rent see that, and they'd be like, oh,
42:22
Speaker 3: this is a new charge.
42:24
Speaker 2: It's definitely a lot to.
42:25
Speaker 1: Deal with for the Conviction Integrity Unit. Was it really
42:29
Speaker 1: just a question of like laying it out for them
42:32
Speaker 1: and saying, do you think this is fairer? Was it
42:35
Speaker 1: just a question of getting her case reevaluated?
42:40
Speaker 4: Well you have to remember too, when they first started that,
42:43
Speaker 4: there were over one hundred cases to review, and what
42:46
Speaker 4: we heard was Michelle was weighed down at the bottom.
42:49
Speaker 4: But God sent us a lawyer that has that same
42:52
Speaker 4: don't give up spirit, and she was not going for it.
42:56
Speaker 4: When we met and I told her my story, she
43:00
Speaker 4: had this compassion. She immediately went to visit Michelle when
43:04
Speaker 4: other lawyers I paid a lot more money, didn't even
43:06
Speaker 4: do that. But she just was not going to give up.
43:09
Speaker 4: And I think she just kept getting in their face.
43:12
Speaker 4: So you got to look at this. You got to
43:13
Speaker 4: look at it. And when they looked at it, they
43:16
Speaker 4: begin to agree.
43:17
Speaker 1: Jenni's man is a formidable force of nature. I can
43:21
Speaker 1: see Michelle while you guys probably connected right away, and
43:25
Speaker 1: Cynthia you too. She actually sent me something today which
43:29
Speaker 1: I wanted to share with you because I think it
43:31
Speaker 1: speaks volumes. Michelle's case went to the Supreme Court of
43:35
Speaker 1: Georgia and the guilty verdict was upheld. Her case demonstrates
43:38
Speaker 1: why we need laws to support conviction integrity units and
43:43
Speaker 1: sentence review units. The court system as it stands doesn't
43:46
Speaker 1: always get it right. Second look reviews like the one
43:49
Speaker 1: done in Michelle's case not only give people a second chance,
43:53
Speaker 1: they put justice back in the court system. Cynthia never
43:57
Speaker 1: gave up hope on her daughter when the court slammed
44:01
Speaker 1: every door in her face. Her strength is admirable and
44:05
Speaker 1: I see it shining through Michelle. Together, we've achieved what
44:09
Speaker 1: many thought we couldn't. We overturned her life sentence, and
44:13
Speaker 1: now Michelle can help other young women to make better
44:17
Speaker 1: decisions in their lives too.
44:19
Speaker 4: Hi, man, that sums it up perfectly.
44:23
Speaker 1: So, Michelle. August twenty second, twenty twenty two, you were
44:27
Speaker 1: actually the first woman released from prison under Fulton's new
44:32
Speaker 1: Conviction Integrity Unit after serving thirteen years. How do you
44:39
Speaker 1: think you got through those thirteen years?
44:42
Speaker 3: My faith I'm a very spiritual person, my faith in God,
44:47
Speaker 3: my hope, of course my mom. Without her, it wouldn't
44:52
Speaker 3: have been possible.
44:54
Speaker 1: And how would you describe your relationship on the other
44:58
Speaker 1: side of this? What do you guys mean to wanty another?
45:01
Speaker 3: That's my baby, that's my heart, well everything, she's my baby.
45:09
Speaker 2: No doubt, it's sensitive talking about her every time.
45:12
Speaker 4: We'd like to travel together. So we've been getting some
45:15
Speaker 4: of that back. We've been taken two trips to Puerto Rico,
45:17
Speaker 4: and we've been doing things together. So we're still trying
45:21
Speaker 4: to get established. It hasn't been easy, but it's good
45:25
Speaker 4: because we can now talk to each other and see
45:27
Speaker 4: each other every day and we do.
45:30
Speaker 1: What advice would you both have for someone else who
45:37
Speaker 1: finds themselves in this situation? I know that Cynthia, in
45:41
Speaker 1: the process of advocating for Michelle, you came across many
45:48
Speaker 1: other families who, like you, were on their own trying
45:52
Speaker 1: to navigate getting through this process of getting their loved
45:55
Speaker 1: ones released. What advice do you believe ve is most
46:01
Speaker 1: valuable Having gone through everything that you've gone through, to.
46:06
Speaker 4: Not focus on my situation, but to get involved, to
46:10
Speaker 4: find out everything that I could to help myself. One
46:14
Speaker 4: of the seminars that went they called participatory defense. You
46:19
Speaker 4: must participate in your own defense. You cannot leave it
46:22
Speaker 4: up to a lawyer. You cannot leave it up to anyone.
46:25
Speaker 4: But you know yourself and you can fight for yourself
46:29
Speaker 4: better than anyone, So you have to get involved. Michelle
46:32
Speaker 4: did her part. She did not get in trouble. She
46:35
Speaker 4: became the best she could be. And my part was
46:38
Speaker 4: to participate and find out all the information I could
46:41
Speaker 4: to see what I could do to help my daughter.
46:44
Speaker 4: I would not accept no. Every door was closed in
46:47
Speaker 4: our face, every appeal, we were down to the wire.
46:50
Speaker 4: There was nothing less. But I knew there was going
46:53
Speaker 4: to be a way because I was not going to
46:55
Speaker 4: let it happen like that. If I had to go
46:57
Speaker 4: sit on the steps of the courthouse for seven and
47:00
Speaker 4: make a camp, I was just prepared to do anything.
47:03
Speaker 4: You have to have that mindset because they're gonna tell
47:06
Speaker 4: you no, because they're not looking out for your best interest.
47:10
Speaker 4: Everybody's looking out for them. So I would say, get involved,
47:14
Speaker 4: don't give up.
47:15
Speaker 1: Get involved, Michelle. Why is helping people who're still there
47:20
Speaker 1: resonate so deeply with you.
47:22
Speaker 3: Because I've met some of the most amazing people I've
47:25
Speaker 3: ever met in my life in there, some of the
47:28
Speaker 3: best friends.
47:29
Speaker 2: When you're down at your lowest point and you.
47:33
Speaker 3: Were able to build a friendship, a bond between each other,
47:37
Speaker 3: I feel like that's the most realist friendship you ever
47:39
Speaker 3: can have. So I have a lot of women down
47:43
Speaker 3: there that I truly love. If I can help them out,
47:45
Speaker 3: I will and advocate for them. It's a lot of
47:48
Speaker 3: women down there that's innocent, or they got too much time.
47:53
Speaker 3: They don't have no money, they don't have no helps,
47:55
Speaker 3: They're just sitting there with nobody. I want to be
48:00
Speaker 3: that person to help them any way that I can,
48:09
Speaker 3: whether I can advocate for them, whether I can support
48:13
Speaker 3: them mentally, spiritually, emotionally, anything that I can do for them,
48:18
Speaker 3: I'm gonna do it because I've been there before and
48:22
Speaker 3: I understand the struggle, and without a strong support system,
48:27
Speaker 3: it's so hard.
48:28
Speaker 2: It's so hard you can just ride away. So I'm thankful.
48:32
Speaker 3: So not only am I going to be the change
48:35
Speaker 3: that I want to see in the world, I'm going
48:37
Speaker 3: to give back that love and compassion that I received
48:41
Speaker 3: during that time, because I know it helped me.
49:07
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'm Lauren Bright Pacheco.
49:11
Speaker 1: Please support your local innocence organizations and go to the
49:14
Speaker 1: links in the episode description to see how you can
49:17
Speaker 1: get involved and how you can help. I'd like to
49:20
Speaker 1: thank our executive producers Jason Flam, Jeff Kempler, and Kevin Wardis,
49:25
Speaker 1: as well as our producers Annie Chelsea and Kathleen Fink.
49:29
Speaker 1: This series is produced, edited, and hosted by me Lauren
49:32
Speaker 1: Bright Pacheco. Our senior producer is Kara Kornhaber. Story editing
49:36
Speaker 1: by Hannah Bial, research by Shelby Sorels, mixing and sound
49:40
Speaker 1: designed by Jackie Pauley with additional production by Jeff Clyburn.
49:45
Speaker 1: Our theme music is by Jay Ralph. Be sure to
49:48
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Speaker 1: Good and at Wrongful Conviction. You can also follow me
49:55
Speaker 1: on all platforms at Lauren Bright Pacheco. Wrongful Conviction is
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50:02
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