Latest / Deep Transformation / Mission, Purpose, and Service in the Catholic Church

Transcript

Mission, Purpose, and Service in the Catholic Church · Deep Transformation

• 0:00
  Welcome
• 0:00
  to
• 0:00
  part
• 0:01
  one
• 0:01
  with
• 0:01
  Father
• 0:02
  David
• 0:02
  McCallum.
• 0:03
  Father
• 0:03
  David
• 0:04
  is
• 0:04
  a
• 0:04
  Jesuit
• 0:04
  priest
• 0:05
  who
• 0:05
  also
• 0:05
  happens
• 0:06
  to
• 0:06
  be
• 0:06
  intricately
• 0:07
  informed
• 0:07
  and
• 0:07
  I
• 0:07
  have
• 0:08
  known
• 0:08
  him
• 0:08
  for
• 0:08
  years.
• 0:09
  Father
• 0:09
  David
• 0:10
  currently
• 0:10
  works
• 0:10
  at
• 0:10
  the
• 0:11
  Vatican
• 0:11
  and
• 0:11
  I
• 0:12
  find
• 0:12
  him
• 0:12
  a
• 0:13
  very
• 0:13
  learned,
• 0:13
  wise
• 0:14
  and
• 0:15
  humble
• 0:15
  man.
• 0:16
  He
• 0:16
  has
• 0:16
  a
• 0:16
  lot
• 0:16
  to
• 0:17
  share.
• 0:17
  Also
• 0:17
  he
• 0:18
  has
• 0:18
  a
• 0:18
  lot
• 0:18
  of
• 0:18
  insight
• 0:19
  into
• 0:19
  the
• 0:19
  late
• 0:19
  Pope
• 0:20
  Francis
• 0:20
  and
• 0:21
  our
• 0:21
  new
• 0:22
  Pope,
• 0:22
  Pope
• 0:22
  Leo.
• 0:23
  So
• 0:23
  I
• 0:23
  think
• 0:23
  you're
• 0:23
  going
• 0:24
  to
• 0:24
  love
• 0:24
  this.
• 0:28
  Welcome
• 0:29
  to
• 0:29
  Deep
• 0:30
  Transformation,
• 0:30
  Self,
• 0:31
  Society,
• 0:32
  Spirit,
• 0:32
  Life
• 0:33
  Enhancing,
• 0:33
  Paradigm
• 0:34
  rattling
• 0:35
  conversations
• 0:35
  with
• 0:36
  cutting
• 0:36
  edge
• 0:36
  thinkers,
• 0:37
  contemplatives
• 0:38
  and
• 0:38
  activists
• 0:39
  with
• 0:39
  Dr.
• 0:39
  Roger
• 0:40
  Walsh
• 0:40
  and
• 0:40
  John
• 0:40
  Dupuy.
• 0:45
  I'm
• 0:45
  Roger
• 0:45
  Walsh
• 0:46
  and
• 0:46
  our
• 0:46
  co
• 0:46
  host
• 0:47
  is
• 0:47
  John
• 0:47
  Dupuy.
• 0:48
  And
• 0:49
  our
• 0:49
  guest
• 0:49
  today
• 0:49
  is
• 0:50
  Father
• 0:50
  David
• 0:51
  McCallum,
• 0:52
  a
• 0:52
  Jesuit
• 0:53
  priest
• 0:54
  currently
• 0:54
  serving
• 0:55
  in
• 0:55
  the
• 0:55
  Vatican
• 0:56
  who
• 0:57
  has
• 0:57
  played
• 0:57
  many
• 0:58
  roles.
• 0:58
  He's
• 0:58
  been
• 0:59
  a
• 0:59
  professor
• 1:00
  and
• 1:01
  an
• 1:01
  administrator
• 1:02
  in
• 1:03
  the
• 1:03
  Jesuit
• 1:03
  Higher
• 1:04
  education
• 1:04
  at
• 1:05
  the
• 1:05
  Lemoyne
• 1:06
  College
• 1:06
  in
• 1:06
  Syracuse.
• 1:08
  And
• 1:09
  he
• 1:09
  is
• 1:10
  the
• 1:10
  executive
• 1:11
  director
• 1:12
  of
• 1:12
  the
• 1:12
  Discerning
• 1:13
  Leadership
• 1:13
  Program
• 1:14
  which
• 1:14
  offers
• 1:15
  guidance
• 1:16
  and
• 1:17
  training
• 1:18
  for
• 1:18
  clergy
• 1:19
  at
• 1:19
  many
• 1:20
  levels.
• 1:21
  And
• 1:21
  he's
• 1:22
  also
• 1:23
  a
• 1:24
  very
• 1:25
  broadly
• 1:26
  educated
• 1:26
  and
• 1:27
  big
• 1:27
  picture
• 1:27
  thinker,
• 1:28
  someone
• 1:28
  who's
• 1:29
  being
• 1:29
  a
• 1:30
  student
• 1:31
  and
• 1:31
  expert
• 1:32
  actually
• 1:32
  in
• 1:33
  topics
• 1:33
  like
• 1:33
  adult
• 1:34
  development
• 1:35
  and
• 1:36
  Ken
• 1:36
  Wilber's
• 1:37
  Integral
• 1:37
  Theory.
• 1:37
  So
• 1:38
  he
• 1:38
  brings
• 1:38
  a
• 1:39
  lot
• 1:39
  of
• 1:39
  different,
• 1:40
  different
• 1:41
  elements
• 1:41
  and
• 1:42
  facets
• 1:43
  to
• 1:43
  a
• 1:44
  consideration
• 1:44
  of
• 1:44
  all
• 1:45
  things.
• 1:45
  And
• 1:46
  he's
• 1:46
  devoted
• 1:46
  his
• 1:47
  life
• 1:47
  to
• 1:47
  the
• 1:48
  church.
• 1:48
  So
• 1:49
  David,
• 1:49
  there
• 1:50
  are
• 1:50
  a
• 1:50
  lot
• 1:50
  of
• 1:51
  topics
• 1:52
  to
• 1:52
  be
• 1:52
  covered.
• 1:53
  You
• 1:53
  know,
• 1:53
  religion
• 1:54
  in
• 1:54
  today
• 1:54
  and
• 1:55
  the
• 1:55
  church
• 1:55
  today
• 1:56
  are
• 1:56
  going
• 1:56
  through
• 1:56
  so
• 1:57
  many
• 1:57
  changes.
• 1:57
  But
• 1:58
  let's
• 1:58
  start
• 1:59
  personally.
• 2:00
  Please
• 2:00
  say
• 2:00
  something
• 2:01
  about
• 2:01
  how
• 2:01
  you
• 2:01
  came
• 2:02
  to
• 2:02
  devote
• 2:02
  your
• 2:03
  life
• 2:03
  to
• 2:03
  the
• 2:04
  Catholic
• 2:04
  Church.
• 2:05
  Oh
• 2:05
  my
• 2:06
  gosh,
• 2:06
  what
• 2:07
  a
• 2:07
  mystery
• 2:07
  that
• 2:07
  is.
• 2:10
  Yeah.
• 2:11
  Roger,
• 2:11
  first
• 2:12
  of
• 2:12
  all,
• 2:12
  it's
• 2:12
  a
• 2:12
  pleasure
• 2:13
  to
• 2:13
  be
• 2:13
  with
• 2:13
  you
• 2:13
  after
• 2:14
  years
• 2:14
  and
• 2:15
  you
• 2:15
  and
• 2:15
  John.
• 2:16
  You
• 2:16
  know,
• 2:17
  I
• 2:17
  was
• 2:17
  raised
• 2:17
  Catholic,
• 2:18
  but
• 2:18
  a
• 2:18
  post
• 2:18
  Vatican
• 2:19
  II
• 2:19
  Catholic.
• 2:20
  Jesus
• 2:20
  was
• 2:21
  my
• 2:21
  close
• 2:22
  friend
• 2:22
  and
• 2:23
  I
• 2:23
  never
• 2:23
  had
• 2:23
  any
• 2:25
  sense
• 2:25
  of
• 2:25
  the
• 2:25
  fear
• 2:26
  that
• 2:26
  people
• 2:27
  had
• 2:27
  grown
• 2:27
  up
• 2:27
  with
• 2:27
  in
• 2:28
  the
• 2:28
  pre
• 2:28
  Vatican
• 2:28
  II
• 2:29
  church.
• 2:30
  The
• 2:30
  sense
• 2:30
  that
• 2:30
  I
• 2:31
  had
• 2:31
  was
• 2:31
  that
• 2:31
  this
• 2:31
  was
• 2:32
  a
• 2:32
  welcoming
• 2:33
  and
• 2:33
  a
• 2:33
  really
• 2:34
  a
• 2:34
  nurturing
• 2:35
  place
• 2:35
  and
• 2:36
  community
• 2:37
  to
• 2:37
  be
• 2:37
  part
• 2:37
  of.
• 2:38
  And
• 2:38
  I
• 2:39
  never
• 2:39
  thought
• 2:39
  about
• 2:39
  priesthood
• 2:40
  as
• 2:40
  a
• 2:40
  younger
• 2:41
  person,
• 2:41
  but
• 2:42
  attending
• 2:42
  a
• 2:42
  Jesuit
• 2:43
  college,
• 2:43
  I
• 2:44
  was
• 2:44
  studying
• 2:45
  humanities
• 2:45
  and
• 2:46
  actually
• 2:46
  our
• 2:47
  program
• 2:47
  was
• 2:47
  called
• 2:47
  the
• 2:48
  Integral
• 2:48
  Honors
• 2:49
  Program.
• 2:49
  This
• 2:50
  would
• 2:50
  be
• 2:50
  back
• 2:50
  in
• 2:50
  the
• 2:51
  late
• 2:51
  80s
• 2:51
  and
• 2:53
  we
• 2:53
  had
• 2:53
  Jesuits
• 2:54
  who
• 2:54
  were
• 2:54
  chaplains
• 2:55
  and
• 2:55
  professors,
• 2:56
  brilliant
• 2:57
  guys
• 2:57
  who
• 2:58
  loved
• 2:58
  their
• 2:58
  subjects
• 2:59
  and
• 2:59
  loved
• 2:59
  us.
• 3:00
  And
• 3:00
  I
• 3:01
  had
• 3:01
  one
• 3:01
  particular
• 3:02
  experience
• 3:03
  early
• 3:03
  on
• 3:03
  of
• 3:03
  a
• 3:04
  retreat
• 3:05
  where
• 3:05
  I
• 3:06
  felt
• 3:06
  that
• 3:07
  I
• 3:07
  thou
• 3:07
  experience
• 3:08
  in
• 3:08
  quite
• 3:09
  a
• 3:09
  profound
• 3:09
  way.
• 3:10
  In
• 3:10
  a
• 3:10
  way
• 3:10
  that
• 3:11
  from
• 3:11
  that
• 3:11
  point
• 3:12
  on
• 3:12
  I
• 3:13
  knew
• 3:13
  that
• 3:13
  I
• 3:13
  needed
• 3:13
  to
• 3:14
  factor
• 3:14
  that
• 3:14
  in
• 3:15
  to
• 3:15
  whatever
• 3:15
  and
• 3:16
  whoever
• 3:16
  I
• 3:16
  would
• 3:17
  become.
• 3:18
  But
• 3:18
  what
• 3:18
  it
• 3:18
  would
• 3:18
  mean
• 3:19
  had
• 3:19
  no
• 3:19
  idea.
• 3:20
  But
• 3:20
  from
• 3:20
  that
• 3:20
  point
• 3:20
  on,
• 3:21
  I
• 3:21
  was
• 3:21
  on
• 3:21
  the
• 3:21
  radar
• 3:22
  of
• 3:22
  the
• 3:22
  Jesuits
• 3:23
  and
• 3:23
  was
• 3:24
  then
• 3:24
  shoulder
• 3:24
  tapped
• 3:25
  a
• 3:25
  few
• 3:25
  times
• 3:26
  to
• 3:26
  think
• 3:26
  about
• 3:26
  this.
• 3:27
  And
• 3:27
  gradually,
• 3:28
  you
• 3:28
  know,
• 3:29
  after
• 3:29
  a
• 3:30
  couple
• 3:30
  of
• 3:30
  years
• 3:31
  of
• 3:31
  a
• 3:31
  lot
• 3:31
  of,
• 3:32
  you
• 3:32
  know,
• 3:33
  I'd
• 3:33
  say
• 3:34
  cold
• 3:34
  feet
• 3:34
  and
• 3:35
  then
• 3:35
  kind
• 3:36
  of
• 3:36
  approach
• 3:36
  avoidance,
• 3:37
  I
• 3:37
  eventually
• 3:38
  couldn't
• 3:38
  deny
• 3:38
  that
• 3:39
  something
• 3:39
  really
• 3:39
  deep
• 3:40
  was
• 3:40
  attracting
• 3:41
  me.
• 3:41
  I
• 3:42
  did
• 3:42
  an
• 3:42
  honors
• 3:43
  project
• 3:43
  looking
• 3:44
  at
• 3:44
  the
• 3:45
  fiction
• 3:45
  of
• 3:45
  Graham
• 3:45
  Greene,
• 3:46
  if
• 3:46
  you
• 3:46
  know
• 3:47
  his
• 3:47
  fiction
• 3:48
  and
• 3:49
  spy
• 3:49
  stuff,
• 3:49
  right.
• 3:50
  International
• 3:51
  spy
• 3:51
  stuff.
• 3:52
  And
• 3:52
  also,
• 3:52
  you
• 3:53
  know,
• 3:53
  looking
• 3:53
  at
• 3:53
  these
• 3:54
  protagonists
• 3:55
  who
• 3:55
  are
• 3:56
  very
• 3:56
  muddled
• 3:57
  in
• 3:57
  their
• 3:58
  kind
• 3:58
  of
• 3:58
  moral
• 3:59
  character
• 4:00
  and
• 4:00
  people
• 4:00
  of
• 4:01
  faith
• 4:01
  and
• 4:01
  of
• 4:02
  tremendous
• 4:02
  doubt,
• 4:03
  very
• 4:03
  human,
• 4:04
  very,
• 4:04
  you
• 4:05
  know,
• 4:05
  very
• 4:05
  much
• 4:05
  a
• 4:06
  kind
• 4:06
  of
• 4:06
  product
• 4:06
  of
• 4:06
  their
• 4:07
  times
• 4:07
  in
• 4:07
  the
• 4:07
  modern
• 4:08
  era
• 4:09
  and
• 4:09
  asking
• 4:10
  the
• 4:10
  deep
• 4:10
  existential
• 4:11
  questions,
• 4:12
  you
• 4:12
  know,
• 4:12
  the
• 4:12
  21st
• 4:13
  and
• 4:13
  20th
• 4:13
  century.
• 4:14
  And
• 4:15
  I
• 4:15
  really
• 4:15
  had
• 4:15
  this
• 4:16
  insight
• 4:16
  that
• 4:16
  I
• 4:17
  didn't
• 4:17
  want
• 4:17
  to
• 4:17
  end
• 4:18
  up
• 4:18
  like
• 4:18
  a
• 4:18
  lot
• 4:18
  of
• 4:18
  these
• 4:19
  characters
• 4:19
  who
• 4:19
  were
• 4:20
  just
• 4:20
  filled
• 4:20
  with
• 4:20
  egotism,
• 4:22
  and
• 4:22
  it
• 4:23
  betrayed
• 4:24
  who
• 4:24
  they
• 4:24
  were
• 4:25
  and
• 4:25
  who
• 4:25
  they
• 4:25
  wanted
• 4:26
  to
• 4:26
  be
• 4:26
  as
• 4:26
  well
• 4:26
  as
• 4:27
  their
• 4:27
  relationships.
• 4:28
  And
• 4:28
  for
• 4:29
  me,
• 4:29
  I
• 4:29
  had
• 4:29
  enough
• 4:30
  insight
• 4:30
  into
• 4:30
  myself
• 4:31
  as
• 4:31
  a
• 4:31
  young
• 4:31
  person
• 4:32
  to
• 4:32
  see
• 4:32
  I
• 4:33
  could
• 4:33
  end
• 4:33
  up
• 4:33
  that
• 4:33
  way.
• 4:34
  I
• 4:34
  don't
• 4:34
  want
• 4:35
  to
• 4:35
  end
• 4:35
  up
• 4:35
  with,
• 4:36
  you
• 4:36
  know,
• 4:37
  my
• 4:37
  vanity
• 4:38
  and
• 4:38
  greed
• 4:39
  and
• 4:39
  kind
• 4:39
  of
• 4:40
  achievement
• 4:40
  orientation
• 4:41
  getting
• 4:41
  the
• 4:41
  best
• 4:41
  of
• 4:42
  me.
• 4:42
  And
• 4:42
  I
• 4:43
  also
• 4:43
  knew
• 4:43
  that
• 4:43
  I
• 4:43
  needed
• 4:44
  a
• 4:44
  community
• 4:45
  to
• 4:45
  help
• 4:45
  me
• 4:46
  along
• 4:46
  the
• 4:46
  way.
• 4:47
  I
• 4:47
  needed
• 4:48
  a
• 4:48
  community.
• 4:49
  I
• 4:49
  needed
• 4:49
  a
• 4:49
  spirituality
• 4:51
  that
• 4:51
  brought
• 4:52
  me
• 4:52
  into
• 4:52
  a
• 4:52
  more
• 4:53
  direct
• 4:53
  relationship
• 4:54
  with
• 4:54
  God,
• 4:55
  that
• 4:55
  taught
• 4:56
  me
• 4:56
  how
• 4:57
  to
• 4:58
  sort
• 4:58
  through
• 4:58
  the
• 4:59
  motivations
• 4:59
  and
• 5:00
  the
• 5:00
  kind
• 5:00
  of
• 5:00
  urges
• 5:01
  that
• 5:01
  I
• 5:01
  was
• 5:01
  experiencing,
• 5:02
  and
• 5:03
  that
• 5:03
  would
• 5:03
  lead
• 5:03
  me
• 5:03
  deeper
• 5:04
  into
• 5:04
  freedom.
• 5:05
  And
• 5:05
  the
• 5:05
  heart
• 5:06
  of
• 5:06
  kind
• 5:06
  of
• 5:06
  our
• 5:06
  Jesuit
• 5:07
  spirituality
• 5:08
  is
• 5:09
  a
• 5:09
  deep,
• 5:09
  deep
• 5:10
  invitation
• 5:10
  to
• 5:11
  spiritual
• 5:11
  freedom.
• 5:12
  Freedom
• 5:12
  from
• 5:13
  attachments
• 5:14
  that
• 5:14
  are
• 5:14
  unhelpful,
• 5:16
  freedom
• 5:17
  from
• 5:17
  the
• 5:18
  kind
• 5:18
  of
• 5:18
  emotional
• 5:19
  disorder
• 5:19
  that
• 5:20
  early
• 5:20
  traumas
• 5:21
  can
• 5:21
  bring.
• 5:21
  And,
• 5:22
  you
• 5:22
  know,
• 5:22
  that
• 5:22
  we
• 5:23
  experience
• 5:23
  when
• 5:23
  we're
• 5:24
  unconditionally
• 5:25
  but
• 5:25
  conditionally
• 5:26
  loved.
• 5:27
  So
• 5:28
  by
• 5:28
  the
• 5:28
  time
• 5:28
  I
• 5:29
  was
• 5:29
  21,
• 5:30
  I
• 5:30
  made
• 5:30
  the
• 5:30
  choice
• 5:30
  to
• 5:31
  enter
• 5:31
  the
• 5:31
  Society
• 5:31
  of
• 5:32
  Jesus.
• 5:32
  And
• 5:32
  in
• 5:32
  fact,
• 5:32
  it
• 5:33
  was.
• 5:33
  It
• 5:33
  was
• 5:33
  exactly
• 5:35
  the
• 5:35
  experience
• 5:35
  of
• 5:36
  being
• 5:36
  as
• 5:36
  a
• 5:36
  College
• 5:37
  student
• 5:38
  in
• 5:38
  1989,
• 5:39
  hearing
• 5:40
  that
• 5:40
  the
• 5:40
  Jesuits
• 5:41
  had
• 5:41
  been
• 5:41
  assassinated
• 5:42
  in
• 5:42
  El
• 5:42
  Salvador,
• 5:43
  in
• 5:44
  San
• 5:44
  Salvador,
• 5:44
  in
• 5:45
  the
• 5:45
  fall
• 5:45
  of
• 5:46
  1989,
• 5:47
  that.
• 5:47
  That
• 5:48
  I
• 5:48
  was
• 5:48
  really
• 5:48
  feeling
• 5:49
  like,
• 5:49
  okay,
• 5:49
  this
• 5:50
  is
• 5:50
  going
• 5:50
  to
• 5:50
  have
• 5:50
  consequences,
• 5:51
  and
• 5:51
  I
• 5:52
  want
• 5:52
  to
• 5:52
  have
• 5:52
  a
• 5:52
  life
• 5:53
  that
• 5:53
  has
• 5:53
  consequence.
• 5:54
  So
• 5:55
  that
• 5:55
  was
• 5:56
  my
• 5:56
  naive
• 5:56
  beginning,
• 5:57
  I
• 5:57
  would
• 5:57
  say.
• 5:58
  And,
• 5:58
  you
• 5:58
  know,
• 5:59
  the
• 5:59
  story
• 5:59
  from
• 6:00
  then
• 6:00
  on,
• 6:00
  35
• 6:01
  years
• 6:01
  later,
• 6:01
  has
• 6:02
  been
• 6:02
  a
• 6:03
  really
• 6:03
  interesting
• 6:03
  adventure.
• 6:04
  So,
• 6:05
  yeah,
• 6:06
  can
• 6:06
  I.
• 6:07
  Can
• 6:07
  I
• 6:07
  say
• 6:07
  what
• 6:07
  I
• 6:07
  need
• 6:07
  to
• 6:08
  say,
• 6:08
  Roger,
• 6:08
  so
• 6:08
  we
• 6:08
  can
• 6:09
  get
• 6:09
  on
• 6:09
  to
• 6:09
  the
• 6:09
  other
• 6:09
  stuff?
• 6:10
  I'm
• 6:10
  great
• 6:10
  for
• 6:10
  getting
• 6:10
  off
• 6:11
  script,
• 6:11
  if
• 6:11
  we
• 6:11
  had
• 6:12
  one,
• 6:12
  but
• 6:13
  that's
• 6:13
  me.
• 6:14
  This
• 6:14
  been
• 6:15
  the
• 6:16
  last
• 6:16
  few
• 6:16
  Days
• 6:17
  preparing
• 6:17
  for
• 6:17
  this
• 6:17
  has
• 6:18
  been
• 6:18
  very
• 6:18
  transformative.
• 6:19
  And
• 6:19
  this,
• 6:19
  that's
• 6:20
  the
• 6:20
  name
• 6:20
  of
• 6:20
  the
• 6:20
  game
• 6:20
  here.
• 6:20
  Deep
• 6:21
  transformation.
• 6:21
  So
• 6:22
  give
• 6:22
  you
• 6:22
  a
• 6:22
  little
• 6:23
  background.
• 6:24
  I
• 6:24
  had
• 6:24
  a
• 6:24
  very
• 6:24
  powerful
• 6:25
  spiritual
• 6:25
  awakening
• 6:26
  when
• 6:26
  I
• 6:26
  was
• 6:26
  12
• 6:26
  years
• 6:26
  old,
• 6:27
  reading
• 6:27
  the
• 6:28
  New
• 6:28
  Testament.
• 6:28
  I
• 6:28
  grew
• 6:28
  up
• 6:28
  Catholic,
• 6:29
  by
• 6:29
  the
• 6:29
  way.
• 6:30
  I'm
• 6:30
  definitely
• 6:30
  a
• 6:31
  cultural
• 6:31
  Catholic.
• 6:32
  And
• 6:32
  all
• 6:33
  of
• 6:33
  a
• 6:33
  sudden
• 6:33
  I
• 6:34
  had
• 6:34
  the
• 6:34
  experience
• 6:35
  that
• 6:35
  God
• 6:36
  is
• 6:36
  love
• 6:36
  and
• 6:36
  God
• 6:36
  is
• 6:36
  everywhere.
• 6:37
  And
• 6:38
  it
• 6:38
  just
• 6:38
  like,
• 6:39
  I
• 6:39
  thought
• 6:39
  this
• 6:39
  was
• 6:39
  the
• 6:39
  most
• 6:40
  important
• 6:40
  thing
• 6:40
  anybody
• 6:41
  could
• 6:41
  know.
• 6:41
  And
• 6:42
  why
• 6:42
  didn't
• 6:42
  they
• 6:42
  ever
• 6:42
  tell
• 6:42
  me
• 6:43
  about
• 6:43
  that
• 6:43
  in
• 6:43
  church?
• 6:44
  So
• 6:44
  I
• 6:44
  never
• 6:45
  dawned
• 6:46
  in
• 6:46
  my
• 6:46
  mind
• 6:46
  to
• 6:46
  go
• 6:46
  to
• 6:46
  a
• 6:47
  priest
• 6:47
  to
• 6:48
  get,
• 6:48
  you
• 6:48
  know,
• 6:48
  counseling
• 6:49
  and
• 6:49
  everything.
• 6:49
  So
• 6:49
  one
• 6:49
  thing
• 6:50
  led
• 6:50
  to
• 6:50
  another.
• 6:50
  I
• 6:50
  ended
• 6:51
  up
• 6:51
  a
• 6:51
  couple
• 6:51
  of
• 6:51
  years
• 6:52
  later
• 6:52
  joining
• 6:52
  a
• 6:52
  religious
• 6:53
  cult
• 6:53
  for
• 6:53
  about
• 6:54
  eight
• 6:54
  years.
• 6:55
  And
• 6:55
  then
• 6:56
  I.
• 6:57
  I
• 6:57
  joined
• 6:57
  the
• 6:57
  army
• 6:57
  and
• 6:58
  got
• 6:58
  out
• 6:58
  of
• 6:58
  there.
• 6:58
  I
• 6:58
  wanted
• 6:59
  something
• 6:59
  to
• 6:59
  really
• 6:59
  break.
• 7:00
  I
• 7:00
  didn't
• 7:00
  want.
• 7:00
  I
• 7:00
  wanted
• 7:00
  to
• 7:00
  burn
• 7:01
  the
• 7:01
  bridge.
• 7:01
  And
• 7:02
  that
• 7:02
  was
• 7:02
  a
• 7:02
  good
• 7:02
  choice.
• 7:03
  And
• 7:05
  anyway,
• 7:05
  so
• 7:06
  I
• 7:06
  just.
• 7:06
  I
• 7:06
  was
• 7:07
  just
• 7:07
  struggling
• 7:07
  with
• 7:07
  God,
• 7:07
  the
• 7:08
  whole
• 7:08
  thing.
• 7:08
  And
• 7:08
  it
• 7:08
  says,
• 7:08
  I
• 7:09
  don't
• 7:09
  care.
• 7:09
  I
• 7:09
  want
• 7:09
  the
• 7:09
  truth
• 7:09
  that
• 7:10
  there
• 7:10
  is
• 7:10
  no
• 7:10
  God.
• 7:10
  There
• 7:10
  is
• 7:11
  God,
• 7:11
  you
• 7:11
  know,
• 7:12
  But
• 7:12
  I
• 7:12
  just
• 7:12
  didn't.
• 7:12
  I
• 7:13
  was
• 7:13
  so
• 7:13
  full
• 7:13
  of
• 7:14
  this
• 7:14
  cult
• 7:14
  stuff
• 7:14
  that
• 7:14
  I
• 7:15
  had
• 7:15
  to.
• 7:16
  Had
• 7:16
  to
• 7:16
  get
• 7:16
  free
• 7:16
  of
• 7:17
  that.
• 7:17
  And
• 7:18
  then
• 7:18
  a
• 7:18
  few
• 7:19
  years
• 7:19
  later,
• 7:20
  I
• 7:20
  mean,
• 7:21
  I
• 7:21
  was
• 7:21
  spiritual.
• 7:21
  Not,
• 7:22
  you
• 7:22
  know,
• 7:23
  spirituality
• 7:23
  came
• 7:23
  to
• 7:23
  the
• 7:24
  fore
• 7:24
  in
• 7:24
  my
• 7:24
  life.
• 7:25
  We
• 7:25
  had
• 7:25
  this
• 7:25
  integral
• 7:26
  Christianity
• 7:26
  thing.
• 7:27
  And
• 7:27
  Brother
• 7:28
  David
• 7:28
  Stendel
• 7:28
  Ross
• 7:29
  was
• 7:29
  there
• 7:29
  in
• 7:29
  Boulder,
• 7:29
  Colorado,
• 7:30
  and
• 7:31
  some
• 7:31
  woman
• 7:31
  had
• 7:31
  a
• 7:31
  breakthrough
• 7:32
  or
• 7:32
  a
• 7:32
  breakdown
• 7:32
  and
• 7:33
  really
• 7:33
  touched
• 7:33
  me.
• 7:33
  And
• 7:34
  he
• 7:34
  gave
• 7:34
  her
• 7:34
  a
• 7:34
  hug.
• 7:35
  And
• 7:35
  I
• 7:35
  said,
• 7:36
  can
• 7:36
  I
• 7:36
  vote
• 7:36
  too?
• 7:37
  I
• 7:37
  usually
• 7:38
  don't
• 7:38
  say
• 7:38
  that
• 7:38
  kind
• 7:38
  of
• 7:38
  thing,
• 7:39
  but
• 7:39
  he
• 7:39
  did.
• 7:39
  And
• 7:40
  I
• 7:40
  said,
• 7:40
  where
• 7:41
  were
• 7:41
  you
• 7:41
  40
• 7:41
  years
• 7:42
  ago?
• 7:43
  And
• 7:43
  he
• 7:44
  said
• 7:44
  this,
• 7:44
  this
• 7:44
  hug
• 7:44
  goes
• 7:45
  back
• 7:45
  40
• 7:45
  years,
• 7:47
  you
• 7:48
  know,
• 7:49
  thank
• 7:49
  you.
• 7:49
  And
• 7:49
  that
• 7:49
  really
• 7:51
  did
• 7:51
  something
• 7:51
  in
• 7:51
  my
• 7:51
  heart
• 7:52
  was
• 7:52
  step
• 7:52
  forward
• 7:52
  for
• 7:53
  me.
• 7:54
  And
• 7:54
  in
• 7:54
  preparation
• 7:55
  for
• 7:55
  this,
• 7:57
  well,
• 7:57
  we've
• 7:57
  been
• 7:57
  doing
• 7:58
  these
• 7:58
  conversations
• 7:59
  with,
• 7:59
  ah,
• 7:59
  Almas
• 8:00
  or
• 8:00
  Hamid,
• 8:01
  and
• 8:02
  he
• 8:02
  is,
• 8:03
  he's
• 8:03
  an
• 8:03
  amazing
• 8:03
  man.
• 8:04
  But
• 8:04
  one
• 8:04
  of
• 8:04
  the
• 8:04
  things
• 8:04
  he
• 8:05
  said
• 8:05
  in
• 8:05
  the
• 8:06
  books
• 8:06
  that
• 8:06
  we're.
• 8:06
  We're
• 8:06
  going
• 8:07
  through
• 8:07
  with
• 8:07
  him,
• 8:07
  he
• 8:07
  says
• 8:08
  that
• 8:09
  you
• 8:09
  can't
• 8:09
  practice
• 8:10
  your
• 8:10
  way
• 8:10
  to
• 8:10
  enlightenment,
• 8:12
  you
• 8:12
  know,
• 8:12
  and
• 8:13
  he
• 8:13
  says,
• 8:13
  in
• 8:13
  fact,
• 8:13
  practice
• 8:14
  sometimes
• 8:14
  will
• 8:14
  just
• 8:15
  reinforce
• 8:15
  a
• 8:15
  separate
• 8:16
  self.
• 8:16
  Yeah,
• 8:17
  and
• 8:18
  Roger
• 8:18
  and
• 8:18
  I
• 8:18
  practiced
• 8:19
  a
• 8:19
  lot,
• 8:19
  you
• 8:19
  know,
• 8:20
  so
• 8:20
  I
• 8:20
  was
• 8:20
  like,
• 8:20
  oh,
• 8:21
  great.
• 8:22
  And
• 8:22
  I
• 8:22
  kind
• 8:22
  of
• 8:22
  knew
• 8:22
  that,
• 8:23
  you
• 8:23
  know,
• 8:23
  but
• 8:24
  when
• 8:24
  I
• 8:24
  was
• 8:24
  reading
• 8:24
  your
• 8:25
  website,
• 8:25
  here,
• 8:25
  here's
• 8:26
  the
• 8:26
  point
• 8:26
  of
• 8:26
  all
• 8:26
  this,
• 8:27
  which
• 8:27
  I
• 8:27
  really
• 8:27
  liked,
• 8:28
  by
• 8:28
  the
• 8:28
  way.
• 8:28
  Did
• 8:29
  you
• 8:29
  write
• 8:29
  the
• 8:29
  copy?
• 8:31
  It's
• 8:31
  very
• 8:31
  good.
• 8:32
  Everybody
• 8:32
  should
• 8:33
  look
• 8:33
  at
• 8:33
  it.
• 8:33
  I
• 8:33
  was
• 8:34
  very
• 8:34
  touched.
• 8:34
  And
• 8:34
  again,
• 8:34
  I
• 8:35
  thought,
• 8:35
  wow,
• 8:35
  if
• 8:36
  I'd
• 8:36
  have
• 8:36
  seen
• 8:36
  this
• 8:36
  kind
• 8:36
  of
• 8:37
  church
• 8:37
  when
• 8:38
  I
• 8:38
  was
• 8:38
  growing
• 8:38
  up,
• 8:38
  I'd
• 8:38
  probably
• 8:39
  still
• 8:39
  be
• 8:39
  there,
• 8:40
  but
• 8:41
  I
• 8:41
  was
• 8:41
  this,
• 8:41
  where
• 8:42
  it
• 8:42
  gets
• 8:42
  very.
• 8:42
  It's
• 8:42
  all
• 8:43
  very
• 8:43
  personal.
• 8:43
  But
• 8:44
  I
• 8:44
  read
• 8:44
  the
• 8:44
  phrase,
• 8:46
  I
• 8:46
  think
• 8:46
  it's
• 8:46
  an
• 8:46
  opening
• 8:47
  to
• 8:47
  grace,
• 8:49
  and
• 8:49
  I
• 8:49
  just
• 8:49
  went,
• 8:51
  that's.
• 8:52
  That's
• 8:52
  the
• 8:52
  answer
• 8:52
  to
• 8:52
  the
• 8:53
  co
• 8:53
  op
• 8:54
  about
• 8:54
  practice
• 8:55
  won't
• 8:55
  get
• 8:55
  you
• 8:55
  enlightenment
• 8:56
  and
• 8:56
  can
• 8:56
  make
• 8:57
  you
• 8:57
  reinforce
• 8:57
  a
• 8:58
  separate
• 8:58
  self.
• 8:59
  The
• 8:59
  practice
• 8:59
  is
• 8:59
  opening
• 9:00
  to
• 9:00
  grace.
• 9:01
  Yeah.
• 9:02
  And
• 9:02
  I
• 9:02
  was
• 9:03
  deeply
• 9:03
  moved.
• 9:04
  And
• 9:05
  instead
• 9:05
  of,
• 9:05
  you
• 9:06
  know,
• 9:06
  got
• 9:06
  to
• 9:06
  practice
• 9:07
  today,
• 9:07
  since
• 9:07
  then,
• 9:08
  I
• 9:08
  just.
• 9:09
  I
• 9:09
  can't
• 9:09
  wait
• 9:09
  to
• 9:09
  go
• 9:10
  and
• 9:10
  just
• 9:10
  open
• 9:10
  myself
• 9:11
  to
• 9:11
  God,
• 9:11
  if
• 9:12
  you
• 9:12
  will.
• 9:12
  And
• 9:13
  I
• 9:13
  really
• 9:13
  appreciate
• 9:14
  it.
• 9:14
  And
• 9:14
  I
• 9:14
  just
• 9:14
  want
• 9:14
  to
• 9:15
  let
• 9:15
  you
• 9:15
  know
• 9:15
  how
• 9:16
  what
• 9:16
  you're
• 9:16
  writing
• 9:16
  and
• 9:17
  what
• 9:17
  you're
• 9:17
  doing,
• 9:18
  it
• 9:18
  sounds
• 9:18
  so
• 9:18
  healthy.
• 9:19
  Sounds
• 9:19
  very
• 9:19
  Quakerly
• 9:20
  in
• 9:20
  some
• 9:20
  ways,
• 9:20
  which
• 9:20
  is
• 9:20
  a
• 9:21
  group
• 9:21
  I
• 9:21
  have
• 9:21
  respect
• 9:21
  for.
• 9:22
  But
• 9:22
  if
• 9:22
  that's
• 9:23
  the
• 9:23
  direction
• 9:23
  of
• 9:23
  the
• 9:23
  church,
• 9:25
  thank
• 9:25
  you.
• 9:25
  Oh,
• 9:25
  and
• 9:25
  one
• 9:26
  last
• 9:26
  thing
• 9:26
  is
• 9:27
  that
• 9:28
  when
• 9:29
  my
• 9:29
  country
• 9:29
  does
• 9:29
  bad
• 9:30
  stuff,
• 9:30
  I
• 9:30
  feel
• 9:30
  really
• 9:31
  bad,
• 9:31
  okay.
• 9:31
  Because
• 9:32
  I'm
• 9:32
  American.
• 9:32
  When
• 9:33
  my
• 9:33
  church,
• 9:34
  albeit
• 9:35
  separated,
• 9:35
  does
• 9:35
  bad
• 9:35
  things,
• 9:36
  I
• 9:36
  feel
• 9:36
  very
• 9:36
  bad.
• 9:36
  I
• 9:37
  take
• 9:37
  it
• 9:37
  all
• 9:37
  personally.
• 9:37
  It
• 9:38
  hurts.
• 9:39
  So
• 9:39
  with
• 9:39
  that,
• 9:39
  I'll
• 9:40
  just.
• 9:42
  John,
• 9:43
  you
• 9:43
  know,
• 9:43
  when
• 9:43
  you
• 9:43
  spoke,
• 9:45
  I
• 9:46
  just
• 9:46
  want
• 9:47
  to
• 9:47
  just
• 9:47
  honor
• 9:47
  the
• 9:48
  opening
• 9:48
  in
• 9:49
  your
• 9:49
  heart
• 9:49
  that
• 9:49
  was
• 9:49
  happening
• 9:51
  and
• 9:52
  to
• 9:53
  invite
• 9:53
  you
• 9:53
  to
• 9:54
  allow
• 9:54
  yourself
• 9:55
  the
• 9:55
  willingness
• 9:57
  for
• 9:57
  your
• 9:57
  own
• 9:57
  vulnerability
• 9:58
  to
• 9:59
  stay
• 10:00
  there
• 10:00
  with
• 10:00
  that.
• 10:01
  When
• 10:01
  you
• 10:01
  do
• 10:02
  feel
• 10:02
  that,
• 10:02
  because,
• 10:04
  you
• 10:04
  know,
• 10:05
  the
• 10:06
  trying.
• 10:06
  Right.
• 10:07
  That
• 10:07
  all
• 10:07
  of
• 10:07
  us
• 10:08
  are
• 10:08
  tempted
• 10:09
  to
• 10:09
  do
• 10:09
  to
• 10:10
  kind
• 10:10
  of,
• 10:10
  in
• 10:11
  a
• 10:11
  sense,
• 10:11
  bridge
• 10:12
  the
• 10:12
  gap,
• 10:13
  it's
• 10:13
  always
• 10:13
  going
• 10:13
  to
• 10:14
  be
• 10:14
  counterproductive
• 10:15
  to
• 10:15
  the
• 10:15
  work
• 10:16
  that
• 10:16
  God
• 10:16
  wants
• 10:17
  to
• 10:17
  do
• 10:17
  on
• 10:17
  our
• 10:17
  behalf.
• 10:18
  You
• 10:18
  know,
• 10:18
  this
• 10:18
  initiative
• 10:19
  that
• 10:20
  I
• 10:20
  think
• 10:20
  God
• 10:20
  wants
• 10:21
  to
• 10:21
  take
• 10:21
  with
• 10:21
  us.
• 10:22
  And
• 10:23
  I
• 10:23
  don't
• 10:23
  know,
• 10:24
  growing
• 10:24
  up,
• 10:24
  you
• 10:24
  know,
• 10:25
  as
• 10:25
  a
• 10:25
  very
• 10:25
  individualistic
• 10:26
  American
• 10:27
  male,
• 10:28
  the
• 10:29
  whole
• 10:29
  logic
• 10:30
  of
• 10:30
  surrendering
• 10:31
  to
• 10:32
  grace,
• 10:32
  to
• 10:32
  accepting
• 10:33
  grace,
• 10:34
  is
• 10:35
  so,
• 10:35
  so
• 10:36
  difficult
• 10:36
  to
• 10:37
  just
• 10:37
  kind
• 10:38
  of
• 10:38
  get
• 10:38
  our
• 10:39
  heads
• 10:39
  and
• 10:39
  hearts
• 10:40
  wrapped
• 10:40
  around.
• 10:41
  But
• 10:41
  for
• 10:41
  me,
• 10:42
  I
• 10:42
  feel
• 10:42
  like
• 10:42
  it's
• 10:42
  the
• 10:43
  journey
• 10:43
  worth
• 10:44
  making.
• 10:45
  Right.
• 10:45
  The
• 10:46
  journey
• 10:46
  of
• 10:46
  surrender,
• 10:47
  the
• 10:47
  journey
• 10:47
  of
• 10:48
  opening,
• 10:49
  the
• 10:49
  journey
• 10:49
  of
• 10:50
  kind
• 10:50
  of
• 10:50
  allowing
• 10:51
  ourselves
• 10:51
  to
• 10:51
  be
• 10:52
  held
• 10:52
  and
• 10:53
  to
• 10:53
  be
• 10:53
  supported
• 10:54
  and
• 10:54
  to
• 10:54
  be
• 10:55
  loved,
• 10:55
  as
• 10:55
  David
• 10:56
  Stendahl
• 10:56
  Ross
• 10:57
  was
• 10:57
  embracing
• 10:57
  you
• 10:58
  that
• 10:58
  day
• 10:59
  and
• 10:59
  transmitting
• 11:00
  that
• 11:00
  kind
• 11:00
  of
• 11:01
  love
• 11:01
  in
• 11:02
  a
• 11:02
  very
• 11:02
  incarnate
• 11:03
  way
• 11:03
  that
• 11:04
  God,
• 11:04
  I
• 11:04
  think,
• 11:04
  wants
• 11:04
  to
• 11:05
  give
• 11:05
  to
• 11:05
  all
• 11:05
  of
• 11:05
  us,
• 11:06
  wants
• 11:06
  all
• 11:07
  of
• 11:07
  us
• 11:07
  to
• 11:07
  feel
• 11:08
  as
• 11:08
  beloved
• 11:10
  children,
• 11:10
  you
• 11:11
  know,
• 11:11
  and,
• 11:12
  yeah,
• 11:12
  I
• 11:12
  think
• 11:12
  that's
• 11:13
  ultimately
• 11:13
  the
• 11:13
  message
• 11:14
  of
• 11:14
  Christ.
• 11:16
  Right.
• 11:16
  Yeah.
• 11:17
  Yeah.
• 11:18
  I
• 11:19
  was
• 11:19
  also
• 11:19
  reflecting
• 11:21
  on
• 11:21
  Matthew,
• 11:22
  Mark
• 11:22
  chapter
• 11:23
  16,
• 11:24
  which
• 11:24
  the
• 11:24
  scholar
• 11:25
  says
• 11:25
  was
• 11:25
  added
• 11:25
  later.
• 11:26
  But
• 11:26
  be
• 11:26
  that
• 11:26
  it
• 11:26
  is
• 11:26
  a
• 11:27
  may,
• 11:27
  it's.
• 11:27
  It's
• 11:27
  what's
• 11:27
  come
• 11:27
  down
• 11:28
  to
• 11:28
  us.
• 11:28
  And
• 11:28
  Jesus
• 11:28
  said,
• 11:29
  going
• 11:29
  to
• 11:29
  all
• 11:30
  the
• 11:30
  world
• 11:30
  preach
• 11:30
  the
• 11:30
  Gospel
• 11:31
  to
• 11:31
  every
• 11:31
  living
• 11:31
  creature.
• 11:32
  And
• 11:32
  I
• 11:33
  was
• 11:33
  thinking,
• 11:34
  every
• 11:34
  living
• 11:34
  creature,
• 11:35
  that
• 11:35
  means
• 11:35
  my
• 11:35
  dog,
• 11:36
  the
• 11:36
  squirrels,
• 11:37
  the
• 11:37
  cats,
• 11:38
  you
• 11:38
  know,
• 11:39
  the
• 11:39
  bugs,
• 11:40
  everything.
• 11:40
  And
• 11:41
  by
• 11:41
  giving
• 11:41
  out
• 11:42
  that
• 11:42
  love,
• 11:42
  not
• 11:42
  just
• 11:44
  making
• 11:44
  it
• 11:44
  exclusive
• 11:45
  for
• 11:45
  humans,
• 11:46
  but
• 11:46
  for
• 11:46
  all
• 11:47
  creatures.
• 11:47
  And
• 11:48
  St.
• 11:48
  Francis
• 11:48
  had
• 11:49
  a
• 11:49
  big
• 11:49
  impact
• 11:49
  on
• 11:49
  my
• 11:49
  life.
• 11:49
  And
• 11:50
  that's
• 11:50
  what
• 11:50
  Francis
• 11:50
  used
• 11:50
  to
• 11:51
  do.
• 11:51
  There's
• 11:51
  a
• 11:51
  famous
• 11:51
  thing
• 11:51
  where
• 11:52
  he.
• 11:52
  He
• 11:52
  preached
• 11:52
  to
• 11:52
  the
• 11:53
  birds.
• 11:53
  And
• 11:54
  that
• 11:54
  was.
• 11:54
  That
• 11:54
  was
• 11:55
  a
• 11:55
  really
• 11:55
  nice
• 11:55
  opening
• 11:56
  for
• 11:56
  me.
• 11:56
  I
• 11:56
  just
• 11:56
  started
• 11:57
  feeling
• 11:57
  more
• 11:58
  love
• 11:58
  when
• 11:58
  I
• 11:58
  was
• 11:58
  walking
• 11:58
  my
• 11:59
  dog
• 11:59
  this
• 11:59
  morning.
• 11:59
  Just,
• 12:00
  you
• 12:00
  know,
• 12:00
  it's
• 12:00
  not.
• 12:00
  There's
• 12:01
  humans
• 12:01
  we
• 12:01
  gotta
• 12:02
  fix
• 12:02
  and
• 12:02
  there's
• 12:02
  everything
• 12:02
  else.
• 12:03
  No,
• 12:03
  it's
• 12:03
  all
• 12:03
  God.
• 12:04
  And
• 12:04
  the
• 12:05
  gospel
• 12:06
  includes
• 12:07
  all
• 12:07
  of
• 12:07
  it.
• 12:07
  So,
• 12:09
  yeah,
• 12:09
  I
• 12:09
  mean,
• 12:10
  we
• 12:10
  may
• 12:10
  be
• 12:11
  in
• 12:11
  a
• 12:11
  kind
• 12:11
  of
• 12:12
  detour,
• 12:13
  as
• 12:13
  you
• 12:13
  said
• 12:13
  right
• 12:14
  now,
• 12:14
  but,
• 12:14
  you
• 12:15
  know,
• 12:15
  what
• 12:15
  Ignatius
• 12:16
  of
• 12:16
  Loyola
• 12:17
  suggested
• 12:17
  is
• 12:17
  that
• 12:18
  God
• 12:18
  is
• 12:19
  in
• 12:19
  all
• 12:19
  things.
• 12:21
  And
• 12:21
  so
• 12:21
  there's
• 12:22
  this
• 12:22
  panentheistic
• 12:24
  way
• 12:24
  of
• 12:24
  holding
• 12:25
  this
• 12:26
  simultaneous
• 12:27
  sense
• 12:27
  that
• 12:27
  creation
• 12:29
  right,
• 12:29
  has
• 12:29
  been
• 12:30
  generated
• 12:30
  in
• 12:31
  some
• 12:31
  way.
• 12:31
  It's
• 12:31
  a
• 12:32
  mystery.
• 12:32
  And
• 12:33
  at
• 12:33
  the
• 12:33
  same
• 12:33
  time,
• 12:33
  God
• 12:34
  can
• 12:34
  be
• 12:34
  found
• 12:34
  in
• 12:35
  all
• 12:35
  of
• 12:35
  it.
• 12:36
  And
• 12:37
  that
• 12:37
  we
• 12:37
  have
• 12:38
  the
• 12:38
  senses
• 12:38
  and
• 12:39
  we've
• 12:40
  been
• 12:40
  given
• 12:40
  the
• 12:40
  intellect,
• 12:41
  we've
• 12:41
  been
• 12:41
  given
• 12:41
  the
• 12:42
  sensibility
• 12:44
  to
• 12:44
  perceive
• 12:44
  that
• 12:45
  presence
• 12:45
  and
• 12:46
  to,
• 12:46
  in
• 12:47
  fact,
• 12:47
  even
• 12:47
  pursue
• 12:48
  or
• 12:49
  allow
• 12:49
  it
• 12:49
  to
• 12:49
  come
• 12:50
  to
• 12:50
  us
• 12:50
  in
• 12:51
  ways
• 12:51
  that
• 12:51
  are
• 12:51
  just
• 12:52
  as.
• 12:52
  As
• 12:53
  close
• 12:54
  up.
• 12:54
  Right.
• 12:55
  As
• 12:55
  your
• 12:55
  interaction
• 12:56
  with
• 12:57
  the
• 12:57
  people
• 12:57
  in
• 12:57
  your
• 12:57
  family.
• 12:58
  The
• 12:58
  walk
• 12:59
  in
• 12:59
  the
• 12:59
  nature.
• 13:00
  Yeah,
• 13:00
  exactly.
• 13:01
  Exactly.
• 13:03
  Amen.
• 13:05
  Amen.
• 13:07
  This
• 13:07
  is
• 13:07
  a
• 13:07
  very,
• 13:08
  in
• 13:08
  some
• 13:09
  ways,
• 13:10
  a
• 13:10
  different
• 13:10
  understanding
• 13:11
  of
• 13:11
  religion
• 13:11
  from
• 13:12
  conventional
• 13:13
  understandings.
• 13:14
  Certainly
• 13:14
  not
• 13:14
  the
• 13:15
  message
• 13:15
  that
• 13:15
  is
• 13:16
  most
• 13:16
  frequently
• 13:17
  heard.
• 13:17
  And
• 13:18
  yet
• 13:18
  it's
• 13:18
  so
• 13:18
  beautiful,
• 13:19
  so.
• 13:21
  So
• 13:21
  encompassing,
• 13:22
  so
• 13:22
  loving.
• 13:22
  So,
• 13:23
  as
• 13:23
  you
• 13:24
  said,
• 13:24
  panentheistic.
• 13:25
  David,
• 13:26
  you
• 13:26
  know,
• 13:26
  I
• 13:26
  think
• 13:26
  that
• 13:27
  most
• 13:27
  of
• 13:27
  us
• 13:27
  have
• 13:27
  only
• 13:28
  had
• 13:28
  experiences
• 13:29
  of
• 13:29
  the
• 13:30
  exoteric
• 13:31
  religion,
• 13:32
  you
• 13:32
  know,
• 13:32
  the
• 13:32
  institutional
• 13:33
  religion,
• 13:33
  but
• 13:34
  often
• 13:35
  transmitted
• 13:35
  through
• 13:36
  rituals
• 13:36
  and
• 13:37
  practices
• 13:37
  and
• 13:37
  community,
• 13:38
  but
• 13:38
  often
• 13:39
  lacking
• 13:40
  the
• 13:41
  substance
• 13:41
  of
• 13:42
  a
• 13:42
  deep
• 13:42
  spirituality.
• 13:43
  So,
• 13:44
  yes,
• 13:44
  we
• 13:45
  have
• 13:45
  the
• 13:45
  comfort
• 13:45
  of
• 13:46
  kind
• 13:46
  of
• 13:46
  repeated
• 13:47
  rituals
• 13:47
  and
• 13:47
  prayers
• 13:48
  and
• 13:48
  things
• 13:48
  like
• 13:48
  that,
• 13:48
  but.
• 13:49
  But
• 13:49
  often,
• 13:50
  you
• 13:50
  know,
• 13:50
  in
• 13:50
  a
• 13:50
  sense,
• 13:51
  disconnected
• 13:52
  from
• 13:53
  this
• 13:53
  deeper
• 13:54
  wellspring.
• 13:55
  And
• 13:56
  I
• 13:56
  think
• 13:56
  that
• 13:57
  one
• 13:57
  of
• 13:57
  the
• 13:58
  benefits
• 13:58
  of
• 13:59
  the
• 13:59
  many
• 13:59
  spiritualities
• 14:00
  that
• 14:00
  are
• 14:00
  within
• 14:01
  the
• 14:01
  Christian
• 14:02
  sort
• 14:02
  of
• 14:03
  sphere
• 14:04
  is
• 14:04
  that
• 14:05
  they're
• 14:06
  often
• 14:06
  originated
• 14:07
  in
• 14:08
  founding
• 14:08
  figures
• 14:09
  who
• 14:09
  had
• 14:09
  a
• 14:09
  very
• 14:10
  particular
• 14:10
  experience
• 14:11
  of
• 14:11
  God
• 14:11
  at
• 14:11
  a
• 14:12
  particular
• 14:12
  time.
• 14:13
  And
• 14:13
  they
• 14:13
  were
• 14:14
  able
• 14:14
  to,
• 14:14
  in
• 14:14
  some
• 14:15
  ways,
• 14:15
  give
• 14:15
  expression
• 14:16
  to
• 14:16
  that
• 14:16
  in
• 14:16
  a
• 14:16
  way
• 14:17
  that
• 14:17
  people
• 14:17
  felt
• 14:18
  it
• 14:18
  spoke
• 14:19
  to
• 14:19
  them.
• 14:19
  And
• 14:19
  Ignatius
• 14:20
  was
• 14:20
  one
• 14:20
  of
• 14:21
  those
• 14:21
  people.
• 14:22
  Teresa
• 14:22
  of
• 14:22
  Avila,
• 14:23
  Francis
• 14:23
  of
• 14:23
  Assisi,
• 14:24
  Dominic,
• 14:25
  you
• 14:25
  know,
• 14:25
  these
• 14:26
  founders
• 14:26
  and
• 14:27
  foundresses
• 14:27
  of
• 14:28
  often
• 14:28
  religious
• 14:29
  congregations.
• 14:31
  And
• 14:32
  there
• 14:32
  was
• 14:32
  often
• 14:33
  not
• 14:33
  just
• 14:33
  an
• 14:33
  experience
• 14:34
  of
• 14:34
  God,
• 14:34
  but
• 14:34
  also
• 14:35
  a
• 14:35
  sense
• 14:35
  of
• 14:35
  mission
• 14:36
  that
• 14:36
  grew
• 14:36
  out
• 14:36
  of
• 14:37
  that,
• 14:37
  some
• 14:38
  sense
• 14:38
  of
• 14:38
  wanting
• 14:39
  to
• 14:39
  respond
• 14:40
  to
• 14:41
  this
• 14:41
  gratuitous
• 14:42
  love,
• 14:42
  this
• 14:43
  experience
• 14:43
  of
• 14:44
  wholeness,
• 14:45
  this
• 14:45
  experience
• 14:45
  of
• 14:46
  forgiveness
• 14:46
  in
• 14:47
  a
• 14:47
  way
• 14:47
  that
• 14:47
  was
• 14:47
  then
• 14:48
  shared
• 14:48
  with
• 14:49
  others.
• 14:50
  And,
• 14:50
  you
• 14:51
  know,
• 14:51
  that's
• 14:51
  the
• 14:51
  way
• 14:52
  I
• 14:52
  would
• 14:52
  think
• 14:52
  a
• 14:52
  good
• 14:53
  spirituality,
• 14:54
  you
• 14:54
  know,
• 14:54
  is
• 14:55
  expressed.
• 14:56
  It's
• 14:56
  not
• 14:56
  something
• 14:56
  that's
• 14:57
  just
• 14:58
  only
• 14:58
  for
• 14:58
  oneself,
• 14:59
  but
• 14:59
  it's
• 14:59
  meant
• 15:00
  to
• 15:00
  be
• 15:00
  a
• 15:00
  gift
• 15:00
  for
• 15:01
  others
• 15:01
  as
• 15:01
  well.
• 15:02
  So,
• 15:03
  yeah,
• 15:04
  there's
• 15:04
  a
• 15:04
  lot
• 15:05
  to
• 15:05
  say
• 15:05
  about
• 15:05
  Ignatian
• 15:06
  spirituality,
• 15:06
  of
• 15:07
  course,
• 15:07
  as
• 15:07
  there
• 15:07
  is
• 15:08
  about,
• 15:08
  you
• 15:08
  know,
• 15:09
  every
• 15:09
  religious
• 15:10
  tradition
• 15:11
  and
• 15:11
  every
• 15:12
  spirituality.
• 15:13
  But
• 15:13
  you
• 15:14
  could
• 15:14
  get
• 15:14
  me
• 15:14
  on
• 15:14
  for
• 15:14
  this
• 15:15
  for
• 15:15
  a
• 15:15
  long
• 15:15
  time.
• 15:15
  I'm
• 15:15
  just
• 15:16
  warning
• 15:16
  you.
• 15:17
  Yeah,
• 15:17
  yeah.
• 15:17
  We
• 15:18
  want
• 15:18
  to
• 15:18
  talk
• 15:18
  about
• 15:19
  the
• 15:19
  work
• 15:19
  you're
• 15:20
  doing.
• 15:20
  I
• 15:20
  also
• 15:20
  want
• 15:21
  to
• 15:21
  talk
• 15:21
  about.
• 15:22
  Francis
• 15:23
  is
• 15:23
  no
• 15:23
  longer
• 15:24
  the
• 15:24
  living
• 15:24
  pope,
• 15:25
  and
• 15:25
  we
• 15:25
  have
• 15:25
  a
• 15:26
  new
• 15:26
  pope.
• 15:26
  And
• 15:27
  that's
• 15:27
  important
• 15:27
  to
• 15:28
  me.
• 15:28
  And
• 15:28
  so
• 15:29
  far,
• 15:29
  I
• 15:29
  like
• 15:29
  him.
• 15:30
  And
• 15:31
  I
• 15:31
  think
• 15:31
  that
• 15:31
  he's
• 15:32
  American,
• 15:32
  is
• 15:33
  really
• 15:33
  cool,
• 15:33
  because
• 15:34
  I
• 15:34
  think
• 15:34
  that
• 15:34
  was
• 15:35
  consciously
• 15:35
  done
• 15:35
  by
• 15:36
  spirit
• 15:36
  or
• 15:36
  by
• 15:37
  somebody,
• 15:37
  and
• 15:38
  that
• 15:38
  he's
• 15:38
  a
• 15:38
  mixed
• 15:38
  race,
• 15:39
  you
• 15:39
  know,
• 15:39
  has
• 15:39
  a
• 15:40
  Creole
• 15:40
  background
• 15:40
  from
• 15:41
  New
• 15:41
  Orleans.
• 15:42
  It's
• 15:42
  just
• 15:42
  about
• 15:43
  perfect.
• 15:44
  And
• 15:44
  he's
• 15:45
  been
• 15:45
  like.
• 15:46
  He's
• 15:46
  really
• 15:46
  supported
• 15:47
  Ukraine
• 15:48
  and
• 15:48
  has
• 15:48
  come
• 15:48
  out.
• 15:48
  And
• 15:49
  I
• 15:49
  know
• 15:50
  you.
• 15:50
  I
• 15:50
  can't
• 15:50
  say
• 15:50
  anything
• 15:51
  negative.
• 15:51
  He's
• 15:51
  your
• 15:51
  boss.
• 15:52
  But
• 15:53
  anyway,
• 15:53
  Francis
• 15:54
  was
• 15:54
  a
• 15:54
  really
• 15:54
  important
• 15:55
  figure,
• 15:56
  and
• 15:57
  for
• 15:58
  me,
• 15:58
  anyway,
• 15:58
  for
• 15:59
  millions,
• 15:59
  obviously,
• 16:00
  But.
• 16:00
  But
• 16:01
  toward
• 16:01
  the
• 16:01
  end,
• 16:01
  I
• 16:02
  think
• 16:02
  it
• 16:02
  was
• 16:02
  the
• 16:02
  whole
• 16:03
  sexual
• 16:04
  abuse
• 16:04
  thing
• 16:05
  that
• 16:05
  kind
• 16:05
  of
• 16:05
  just
• 16:05
  really
• 16:06
  hurt
• 16:06
  him.
• 16:06
  He
• 16:07
  was
• 16:07
  in
• 16:07
  Peru.
• 16:07
  He
• 16:08
  got
• 16:08
  off
• 16:08
  the
• 16:08
  plane,
• 16:09
  instead
• 16:09
  of
• 16:09
  having
• 16:09
  all
• 16:09
  these
• 16:09
  people
• 16:10
  cheering
• 16:10
  and
• 16:10
  everything,
• 16:10
  a
• 16:11
  bunch
• 16:11
  of
• 16:11
  angry
• 16:11
  people
• 16:11
  with
• 16:12
  signs,
• 16:13
  and
• 16:13
  he
• 16:13
  got
• 16:14
  angry.
• 16:14
  This
• 16:14
  is
• 16:14
  a
• 16:14
  story
• 16:15
  I've
• 16:15
  heard
• 16:15
  documentary.
• 16:16
  And
• 16:17
  he
• 16:17
  said,
• 16:17
  okay,
• 16:17
  well,
• 16:18
  I'm
• 16:18
  going
• 16:18
  to
• 16:18
  have
• 16:19
  my
• 16:19
  people
• 16:19
  investigate
• 16:20
  it.
• 16:20
  And
• 16:20
  it
• 16:20
  was
• 16:21
  all
• 16:21
  very
• 16:22
  true.
• 16:23
  So
• 16:23
  I
• 16:23
  think
• 16:23
  he
• 16:24
  was
• 16:24
  deeply
• 16:25
  hurt
• 16:25
  by
• 16:25
  that,
• 16:26
  as
• 16:26
  many
• 16:27
  of
• 16:27
  us
• 16:27
  have
• 16:27
  been.
• 16:28
  And.
• 16:29
  Yeah,
• 16:30
  and
• 16:30
  now
• 16:30
  he's
• 16:30
  gone
• 16:31
  phenomenal
• 16:32
  person.
• 16:33
  But
• 16:34
  now
• 16:34
  we
• 16:34
  have
• 16:34
  a
• 16:34
  new
• 16:34
  man
• 16:35
  who
• 16:35
  lived
• 16:36
  in
• 16:36
  Peru
• 16:36
  for
• 16:36
  years,
• 16:36
  and
• 16:37
  I
• 16:37
  guess
• 16:37
  he
• 16:37
  has
• 16:37
  dual
• 16:37
  citizenship
• 16:38
  now.
• 16:38
  He
• 16:38
  became
• 16:39
  one
• 16:39
  with
• 16:39
  his
• 16:39
  people,
• 16:40
  his
• 16:40
  flock,
• 16:40
  if
• 16:41
  you
• 16:41
  will.
• 16:41
  So
• 16:42
  any
• 16:42
  comments
• 16:42
  that,
• 16:43
  you
• 16:43
  know,
• 16:43
  can
• 16:43
  have
• 16:43
  about
• 16:44
  that.
• 16:44
  Yeah,
• 16:45
  well,
• 16:46
  Pope
• 16:46
  Francis,
• 16:47
  you
• 16:47
  know,
• 16:48
  was
• 16:48
  a
• 16:48
  Jesuit
• 16:49
  brother
• 16:49
  of
• 16:49
  ours.
• 16:49
  That's
• 16:50
  right.
• 16:50
  First
• 16:50
  Jesuit,
• 16:51
  a
• 16:51
  pope.
• 16:52
  Yeah,
• 16:52
  yeah.
• 16:53
  And
• 16:53
  probably
• 16:54
  the
• 16:54
  last.
• 16:57
  None
• 16:57
  of
• 16:57
  us
• 16:57
  ever
• 16:58
  expected
• 16:58
  a
• 16:58
  Jesuit
• 16:59
  to
• 16:59
  be
• 16:59
  pope
• 16:59
  because
• 17:00
  we
• 17:00
  take
• 17:00
  a
• 17:00
  special
• 17:00
  vow
• 17:01
  of
• 17:01
  obedience
• 17:01
  to
• 17:02
  the
• 17:02
  pope.
• 17:02
  It's
• 17:03
  our
• 17:03
  fourth
• 17:03
  vow.
• 17:04
  And
• 17:04
  it's
• 17:04
  one
• 17:05
  of
• 17:05
  the
• 17:05
  things
• 17:05
  that
• 17:05
  makes
• 17:05
  the
• 17:05
  Jesuits
• 17:06
  kind
• 17:06
  of
• 17:06
  distinct.
• 17:08
  So
• 17:08
  the
• 17:09
  folklore
• 17:09
  for
• 17:10
  us,
• 17:10
  you
• 17:10
  know,
• 17:11
  growing
• 17:11
  up
• 17:11
  in
• 17:11
  the
• 17:11
  Jesuits
• 17:12
  was
• 17:12
  it'll
• 17:13
  never
• 17:13
  happen.
• 17:14
  And
• 17:14
  so
• 17:15
  none
• 17:15
  of
• 17:15
  us
• 17:15
  ever
• 17:16
  gave
• 17:16
  it
• 17:16
  a
• 17:16
  thought.
• 17:17
  And
• 17:17
  when
• 17:18
  Francis
• 17:18
  was
• 17:19
  elected,
• 17:19
  in
• 17:19
  fact,
• 17:19
  I
• 17:20
  was
• 17:20
  the
• 17:20
  Dean
• 17:20
  of
• 17:20
  a
• 17:21
  business
• 17:21
  school
• 17:21
  and
• 17:22
  my
• 17:22
  associate
• 17:23
  dean.
• 17:23
  We
• 17:24
  were
• 17:24
  in
• 17:24
  a
• 17:24
  strategy
• 17:25
  meeting,
• 17:25
  and
• 17:25
  he
• 17:26
  said,
• 17:26
  oh,
• 17:26
  we
• 17:26
  have
• 17:26
  a
• 17:26
  pope,
• 17:27
  and
• 17:27
  he's
• 17:27
  a
• 17:27
  Jesuit.
• 17:28
  And
• 17:28
  I
• 17:28
  slammed
• 17:28
  my
• 17:28
  fist
• 17:29
  down
• 17:29
  on
• 17:29
  the
• 17:29
  table.
• 17:29
  I
• 17:29
  said,
• 17:30
  that's
• 17:30
  impossible.
• 17:31
  Well,
• 17:32
  one
• 17:33
  of
• 17:33
  the
• 17:33
  many
• 17:33
  ways
• 17:33
  I'm
• 17:34
  wrong.
• 17:34
  And
• 17:35
  initially,
• 17:36
  I
• 17:36
  think
• 17:36
  there
• 17:36
  was
• 17:37
  fear
• 17:37
  from
• 17:38
  Jesuits,
• 17:39
  especially
• 17:39
  in
• 17:39
  the
• 17:40
  United
• 17:40
  States,
• 17:40
  about
• 17:40
  Francis,
• 17:41
  because
• 17:42
  his
• 17:42
  reputation
• 17:43
  in
• 17:43
  South
• 17:43
  America
• 17:44
  was
• 17:44
  very
• 17:45
  mixed.
• 17:46
  A
• 17:46
  very
• 17:46
  strong
• 17:47
  leader,
• 17:48
  but
• 17:48
  divisive.
• 17:49
  He
• 17:49
  used
• 17:49
  his
• 17:50
  authority
• 17:50
  in
• 17:51
  a
• 17:51
  very
• 17:51
  strong
• 17:51
  way
• 17:51
  on
• 17:52
  behalf
• 17:52
  of
• 17:52
  the
• 17:52
  poor,
• 17:53
  but
• 17:53
  also
• 17:54
  during
• 17:54
  the
• 17:55
  course
• 17:55
  of
• 17:55
  the
• 17:55
  Argentinian
• 17:56
  dirty
• 17:57
  war,
• 17:57
  you
• 17:58
  know,
• 17:58
  he
• 17:58
  made
• 17:58
  decisions
• 17:59
  that
• 18:00
  seemed
• 18:00
  contrary.
• 18:02
  Right.
• 18:02
  To
• 18:02
  the
• 18:02
  Jesuits
• 18:03
  who
• 18:03
  were
• 18:03
  working
• 18:03
  for
• 18:04
  liberation
• 18:04
  theology.
• 18:06
  And
• 18:06
  so
• 18:06
  there
• 18:07
  was
• 18:07
  a
• 18:07
  sense
• 18:07
  of
• 18:07
  not
• 18:08
  knowing
• 18:08
  exactly
• 18:09
  what
• 18:09
  to
• 18:09
  expect.
• 18:10
  And
• 18:11
  Francis
• 18:11
  even
• 18:11
  had
• 18:12
  been
• 18:12
  in
• 18:12
  exile
• 18:13
  at
• 18:13
  one
• 18:13
  point,
• 18:14
  you
• 18:14
  know,
• 18:14
  after
• 18:14
  a
• 18:15
  kind
• 18:15
  of
• 18:15
  divisive
• 18:16
  time
• 18:16
  in
• 18:16
  his
• 18:16
  own
• 18:16
  province.
• 18:17
  He
• 18:17
  was
• 18:18
  in
• 18:18
  Cordoba
• 18:19
  for
• 18:19
  two
• 18:19
  years,
• 18:20
  basically
• 18:20
  in
• 18:20
  a
• 18:21
  kind
• 18:21
  of
• 18:21
  spiritual
• 18:22
  retreat,
• 18:23
  but.
• 18:23
  But
• 18:23
  also
• 18:24
  in
• 18:24
  exile.
• 18:24
  And.
• 18:25
  And
• 18:25
  I
• 18:25
  think
• 18:25
  it
• 18:26
  was
• 18:26
  during
• 18:26
  that
• 18:26
  period
• 18:26
  of
• 18:27
  time
• 18:27
  that
• 18:27
  he
• 18:27
  began
• 18:28
  to
• 18:28
  do
• 18:28
  some
• 18:28
  soul
• 18:28
  searching
• 18:29
  about
• 18:30
  his
• 18:30
  own
• 18:30
  exercise
• 18:31
  of
• 18:31
  authority.
• 18:32
  And
• 18:32
  then
• 18:32
  years
• 18:33
  later,
• 18:33
  as
• 18:33
  an
• 18:34
  archbishop
• 18:34
  and
• 18:34
  then
• 18:35
  a
• 18:35
  cardinal,
• 18:36
  and
• 18:36
  really
• 18:36
  exploring
• 18:37
  the
• 18:38
  way
• 18:38
  in
• 18:38
  which
• 18:38
  the
• 18:39
  Church
• 18:39
  was
• 18:39
  operating
• 18:40
  in
• 18:40
  South
• 18:40
  America.
• 18:41
  What
• 18:42
  began
• 18:42
  to
• 18:42
  be
• 18:43
  clear
• 18:43
  to
• 18:43
  him
• 18:43
  is
• 18:44
  that
• 18:44
  we
• 18:44
  have
• 18:44
  to
• 18:44
  make
• 18:44
  a
• 18:45
  change
• 18:46
  around
• 18:46
  the
• 18:46
  way
• 18:47
  that
• 18:47
  authority
• 18:47
  and
• 18:47
  participation
• 18:48
  are
• 18:49
  balanced.
• 18:50
  And
• 18:51
  there
• 18:51
  was,
• 18:52
  I
• 18:52
  think,
• 18:52
  an
• 18:52
  incredible
• 18:53
  groundswell
• 18:54
  of
• 18:54
  support
• 18:54
  for
• 18:55
  this
• 18:55
  shift
• 18:56
  that
• 18:56
  would
• 18:56
  expand
• 18:57
  participation
• 18:58
  and
• 18:59
  enhance
• 18:59
  the
• 19:00
  diversity
• 19:00
  of
• 19:01
  decision
• 19:01
  making
• 19:02
  in
• 19:02
  the
• 19:02
  church.
• 19:03
  And
• 19:03
  he
• 19:03
  brought
• 19:04
  that
• 19:04
  to
• 19:04
  Rome.
• 19:05
  He
• 19:05
  was,
• 19:06
  in
• 19:06
  a
• 19:06
  sense,
• 19:07
  hired,
• 19:07
  when
• 19:08
  in
• 19:08
  the
• 19:08
  conclave,
• 19:08
  to
• 19:09
  be
• 19:09
  a
• 19:09
  reformer,
• 19:10
  to
• 19:10
  reform
• 19:10
  the
• 19:10
  Roman
• 19:11
  Curia
• 19:12
  and
• 19:12
  potentially
• 19:13
  to
• 19:13
  bring
• 19:13
  this
• 19:14
  South
• 19:14
  American
• 19:14
  vision
• 19:15
  into
• 19:16
  reality
• 19:16
  in
• 19:17
  Rome.
• 19:17
  So,
• 19:18
  you
• 19:18
  know,
• 19:19
  from
• 19:19
  the
• 19:19
  start,
• 19:19
  I
• 19:19
  think
• 19:20
  he
• 19:20
  was
• 19:20
  set
• 19:20
  up
• 19:20
  to
• 19:20
  be
• 19:21
  someone
• 19:21
  who
• 19:21
  would
• 19:22
  not
• 19:22
  be
• 19:23
  necessarily
• 19:23
  making
• 19:24
  things
• 19:24
  easy
• 19:25
  for
• 19:25
  everyone,
• 19:26
  but
• 19:27
  be
• 19:27
  a
• 19:27
  prophetic
• 19:28
  figure,
• 19:28
  be
• 19:28
  a
• 19:29
  challenging
• 19:29
  figure.
• 19:30
  And
• 19:31
  I
• 19:31
  had
• 19:31
  the
• 19:32
  privilege
• 19:32
  of
• 19:32
  working
• 19:33
  with
• 19:33
  him
• 19:33
  directly,
• 19:34
  in
• 19:34
  a
• 19:34
  couple
• 19:34
  of
• 19:34
  ways
• 19:35
  on
• 19:35
  this
• 19:35
  process
• 19:36
  of
• 19:36
  synodality,
• 19:37
  which
• 19:37
  we
• 19:38
  might
• 19:38
  talk
• 19:38
  about
• 19:38
  some
• 19:39
  more.
• 19:39
  During
• 19:39
  both
• 19:40
  of
• 19:40
  these
• 19:40
  synods,
• 19:41
  he
• 19:41
  was
• 19:41
  there
• 19:41
  and
• 19:42
  available
• 19:42
  after
• 19:43
  our
• 19:43
  lunch
• 19:43
  break,
• 19:44
  and
• 19:45
  it
• 19:45
  happened
• 19:45
  to
• 19:45
  be
• 19:46
  my
• 19:46
  mom's
• 19:46
  birthday
• 19:47
  in
• 19:47
  the
• 19:47
  middle
• 19:47
  of
• 19:47
  these
• 19:48
  two
• 19:48
  October
• 19:49
  gatherings.
• 19:50
  And
• 19:51
  he
• 19:51
  lit
• 19:51
  up
• 19:52
  every
• 19:52
  time
• 19:52
  that
• 19:53
  people
• 19:53
  wanted
• 19:53
  to
• 19:53
  do
• 19:54
  something
• 19:54
  very
• 19:54
  personal
• 19:55
  and
• 19:55
  very
• 19:55
  down
• 19:55
  to
• 19:56
  earth
• 19:56
  with
• 19:56
  him.
• 19:56
  He
• 19:56
  was
• 19:57
  not
• 19:57
  a
• 19:57
  big
• 19:57
  fan
• 19:57
  of
• 19:57
  the
• 19:57
  formalities
• 19:58
  and
• 19:58
  things
• 19:59
  like
• 19:59
  that.
• 19:59
  And
• 20:00
  I
• 20:00
  asked
• 20:00
  him
• 20:00
  to
• 20:00
  do
• 20:00
  a
• 20:00
  video
• 20:01
  for
• 20:01
  my
• 20:01
  mom's
• 20:01
  birthday.
• 20:02
  He
• 20:02
  did
• 20:02
  it
• 20:02
  two
• 20:03
  years
• 20:03
  in
• 20:03
  a
• 20:03
  row.
• 20:04
  That's
• 20:04
  awesome.
• 20:05
  Just
• 20:05
  made
• 20:06
  her
• 20:06
  day.
• 20:06
  You
• 20:07
  know,
• 20:07
  just
• 20:07
  funny
• 20:08
  and
• 20:09
  personal
• 20:10
  and
• 20:10
  very
• 20:11
  kind.
• 20:11
  But
• 20:12
  he
• 20:12
  also
• 20:12
  recognized
• 20:13
  his
• 20:13
  imperfections.
• 20:14
  He
• 20:14
  didn't
• 20:15
  hide
• 20:15
  them
• 20:15
  from
• 20:15
  people.
• 20:16
  He
• 20:16
  wanted
• 20:17
  people
• 20:17
  to
• 20:17
  have
• 20:17
  controversies
• 20:18
  out
• 20:18
  in
• 20:19
  the
• 20:19
  open
• 20:19
  instead
• 20:20
  of
• 20:20
  in
• 20:20
  the
• 20:20
  back
• 20:20
  channels.
• 20:21
  Part
• 20:22
  of
• 20:22
  the
• 20:22
  shift
• 20:23
  he
• 20:23
  wanted
• 20:23
  to
• 20:24
  catalyze
• 20:25
  for
• 20:25
  the
• 20:25
  church
• 20:25
  was
• 20:26
  to
• 20:27
  really
• 20:27
  help
• 20:27
  people
• 20:28
  to
• 20:28
  realize
• 20:28
  ideological
• 20:29
  perspectives,
• 20:31
  distance
• 20:31
  people
• 20:32
  from
• 20:32
  reality.
• 20:33
  And
• 20:34
  so,
• 20:34
  you
• 20:34
  know,
• 20:35
  more
• 20:35
  important
• 20:35
  than
• 20:36
  ideology,
• 20:37
  no
• 20:37
  matter
• 20:37
  how
• 20:37
  powerful,
• 20:38
  is
• 20:38
  to
• 20:38
  get
• 20:38
  people
• 20:39
  into
• 20:39
  direct
• 20:40
  encounter
• 20:40
  with
• 20:40
  others,
• 20:41
  to
• 20:42
  have
• 20:42
  real
• 20:42
  dialogue,
• 20:43
  to
• 20:44
  have
• 20:44
  the
• 20:44
  opportunity
• 20:45
  to
• 20:45
  sort
• 20:46
  through
• 20:46
  our
• 20:46
  assumptions
• 20:47
  together
• 20:47
  and
• 20:48
  to
• 20:48
  do
• 20:48
  that
• 20:48
  in
• 20:49
  a
• 20:49
  respectful
• 20:49
  and
• 20:49
  caring
• 20:50
  way,
• 20:51
  guided
• 20:51
  by
• 20:51
  the
• 20:51
  Spirit.
• 20:53
  So
• 20:53
  he
• 20:53
  introduces
• 20:54
  the
• 20:54
  importance
• 20:54
  of
• 20:54
  discernment,
• 20:56
  of
• 20:56
  listening
• 20:57
  to
• 20:57
  the
• 20:57
  Spirit
• 20:57
  within
• 20:58
  ourselves,
• 20:59
  between
• 20:59
  ourselves,
• 21:00
  amongst
• 21:01
  us,
• 21:01
  and
• 21:02
  then
• 21:02
  following
• 21:02
  where
• 21:02
  that
• 21:03
  Spirit
• 21:03
  wants
• 21:03
  to
• 21:04
  lead
• 21:04
  us,
• 21:04
  which
• 21:04
  is
• 21:05
  to
• 21:05
  more
• 21:05
  life,
• 21:06
  which
• 21:06
  is
• 21:06
  to
• 21:07
  more
• 21:07
  fruitfulness,
• 21:07
  which
• 21:08
  is
• 21:08
  to
• 21:09
  greater
• 21:09
  joy.
• 21:10
  In
• 21:10
  fact,
• 21:11
  he
• 21:11
  wrote
• 21:11
  a
• 21:11
  whole
• 21:11
  encyclical
• 21:12
  on
• 21:13
  joy.
• 21:14
  So
• 21:14
  Francis,
• 21:15
  you
• 21:15
  know,
• 21:15
  played
• 21:15
  a
• 21:16
  very
• 21:16
  important
• 21:16
  role,
• 21:16
  I
• 21:17
  think,
• 21:17
  at
• 21:17
  a
• 21:17
  particular
• 21:18
  time.
• 21:18
  Not
• 21:19
  perfect,
• 21:19
  as
• 21:19
  you
• 21:20
  say.
• 21:20
  He
• 21:20
  would
• 21:21
  apologize
• 21:22
  when
• 21:22
  he
• 21:22
  made
• 21:22
  mistakes,
• 21:23
  which
• 21:23
  is
• 21:23
  unprecedented
• 21:24
  for
• 21:24
  popes.
• 21:25
  Absolutely.
• 21:26
  In
• 21:26
  fact,
• 21:26
  he
• 21:27
  really
• 21:27
  opened
• 21:28
  up
• 21:28
  this
• 21:28
  new
• 21:29
  way
• 21:29
  of
• 21:29
  being
• 21:30
  Vatican.
• 21:31
  By
• 21:31
  the
• 21:32
  way,
• 21:32
  I
• 21:32
  should
• 21:32
  clarify,
• 21:33
  I
• 21:33
  don't
• 21:33
  work
• 21:34
  directly
• 21:34
  for
• 21:34
  the
• 21:35
  Vatican.
• 21:35
  I,
• 21:35
  I
• 21:36
  have
• 21:36
  run
• 21:36
  a
• 21:36
  program
• 21:37
  that
• 21:37
  is
• 21:37
  in
• 21:37
  service
• 21:38
  to
• 21:39
  the
• 21:39
  Vatican
• 21:39
  and
• 21:39
  others
• 21:40
  who
• 21:40
  are
• 21:40
  headquartered
• 21:41
  here
• 21:41
  in
• 21:41
  Rome.
• 21:42
  But
• 21:42
  Francis
• 21:43
  had
• 21:43
  a
• 21:43
  way
• 21:44
  of
• 21:44
  introducing
• 21:45
  a
• 21:46
  whole
• 21:46
  new
• 21:46
  key
• 21:47
  in
• 21:47
  which
• 21:47
  to
• 21:48
  read
• 21:48
  basically
• 21:49
  how
• 21:49
  we
• 21:49
  are
• 21:50
  church.
• 21:50
  And
• 21:51
  that's
• 21:51
  this
• 21:51
  business
• 21:52
  of.
• 21:52
  And
• 21:52
  he
• 21:52
  never
• 21:52
  stayed
• 21:53
  in
• 21:53
  the
• 21:53
  papal
• 21:53
  apartments,
• 21:54
  he
• 21:54
  stayed
• 21:54
  in
• 21:54
  the
• 21:54
  guest
• 21:54
  house
• 21:55
  the
• 21:55
  whole
• 21:55
  time
• 21:55
  he
• 21:55
  was
• 21:55
  Pope.
• 21:56
  I
• 21:56
  mean,
• 21:57
  what
• 21:57
  a
• 21:57
  man.
• 21:57
  That's
• 21:58
  such
• 21:58
  a
• 21:58
  great
• 21:58
  statement.
• 21:59
  And
• 21:59
  part
• 22:00
  of
• 22:00
  it
• 22:00
  is,
• 22:00
  you
• 22:01
  know,
• 22:01
  not
• 22:01
  only
• 22:01
  his
• 22:02
  simplicity,
• 22:02
  which
• 22:03
  he
• 22:03
  was,
• 22:04
  he
• 22:04
  was
• 22:04
  very,
• 22:05
  very
• 22:05
  keen
• 22:05
  on
• 22:06
  living
• 22:06
  poorly
• 22:07
  and
• 22:08
  living
• 22:08
  generously,
• 22:09
  but
• 22:09
  it
• 22:10
  was
• 22:10
  also
• 22:10
  because
• 22:10
  he
• 22:10
  was
• 22:11
  an
• 22:11
  extrovert.
• 22:11
  And
• 22:12
  the
• 22:12
  papal
• 22:12
  apartments
• 22:13
  are
• 22:13
  pretty
• 22:13
  lonely,
• 22:14
  in
• 22:14
  fact.
• 22:14
  And
• 22:15
  the
• 22:15
  guest
• 22:16
  house
• 22:16
  put
• 22:16
  him
• 22:16
  in
• 22:16
  touch
• 22:17
  with
• 22:17
  all
• 22:17
  kinds
• 22:17
  of
• 22:17
  interesting
• 22:18
  people
• 22:18
  coming
• 22:18
  through
• 22:19
  all
• 22:19
  the
• 22:19
  time.
• 22:20
  And
• 22:20
  he
• 22:20
  would
• 22:21
  take
• 22:21
  meals
• 22:21
  with
• 22:21
  people.
• 22:22
  I
• 22:22
  mean,
• 22:22
  he's
• 22:23
  a
• 22:23
  very,
• 22:23
  very
• 22:24
  down
• 22:24
  to
• 22:24
  earth
• 22:25
  extrovert
• 22:25
  when
• 22:26
  it
• 22:26
  comes
• 22:26
  down
• 22:26
  to
• 22:26
  it.
• 22:27
  Now,
• 22:27
  Leo,
• 22:28
  who
• 22:28
  I
• 22:29
  knew
• 22:29
  before
• 22:30
  he
• 22:31
  was
• 22:31
  elected
• 22:31
  because
• 22:32
  of
• 22:32
  his
• 22:32
  work
• 22:32
  also
• 22:33
  on
• 22:33
  the
• 22:33
  synod
• 22:34
  and
• 22:34
  for
• 22:34
  the
• 22:34
  congregation
• 22:35
  of
• 22:35
  Bishops,
• 22:36
  he's
• 22:36
  really
• 22:36
  a
• 22:37
  remarkable
• 22:37
  man
• 22:38
  for
• 22:38
  all
• 22:38
  kinds
• 22:38
  of
• 22:38
  different
• 22:39
  reasons.
• 22:40
  He
• 22:40
  struck
• 22:41
  me
• 22:41
  during
• 22:41
  the
• 22:41
  synod
• 22:42
  process
• 22:42
  as
• 22:42
  someone
• 22:43
  who
• 22:43
  is
• 22:44
  one
• 22:44
  of
• 22:44
  the
• 22:44
  most
• 22:44
  self
• 22:45
  effacing
• 22:45
  people
• 22:46
  I've
• 22:46
  ever
• 22:46
  met.
• 22:47
  In
• 22:48
  fact,
• 22:48
  it's
• 22:49
  very
• 22:49
  deeply
• 22:49
  inspiring
• 22:50
  to
• 22:50
  me
• 22:51
  the
• 22:51
  degree
• 22:52
  to
• 22:52
  which
• 22:53
  he
• 22:54
  seems
• 22:55
  free
• 22:55
  from
• 22:55
  himself
• 22:57
  to
• 22:57
  put
• 22:57
  the
• 22:58
  other
• 22:58
  person
• 22:59
  so
• 22:59
  much
• 22:59
  at
• 23:00
  the
• 23:00
  center
• 23:00
  of
• 23:00
  his
• 23:00
  attention.
• 23:01
  He's
• 23:01
  an
• 23:01
  incredible
• 23:01
  listener.
• 23:03
  He's
• 23:03
  also
• 23:03
  very
• 23:03
  generous,
• 23:04
  he's
• 23:04
  very
• 23:05
  hardworking.
• 23:05
  It
• 23:06
  worried
• 23:06
  me
• 23:06
  a
• 23:06
  little
• 23:07
  bit
• 23:07
  because
• 23:08
  Francis
• 23:08
  was
• 23:08
  so
• 23:09
  hardworking.
• 23:09
  He
• 23:09
  never
• 23:10
  took
• 23:10
  Vacations.
• 23:11
  And
• 23:11
  I
• 23:11
  was
• 23:12
  really
• 23:12
  heartened
• 23:13
  to
• 23:13
  hear
• 23:13
  that
• 23:13
  Pope
• 23:13
  Leo
• 23:14
  used
• 23:14
  to
• 23:14
  have
• 23:14
  a
• 23:14
  trainer
• 23:15
  here
• 23:16
  locally
• 23:17
  who
• 23:17
  he'd
• 23:18
  never
• 23:18
  told
• 23:18
  he
• 23:18
  was
• 23:18
  a
• 23:19
  priest.
• 23:19
  When
• 23:19
  the
• 23:19
  priest
• 23:19
  saw
• 23:20
  he
• 23:20
  was
• 23:20
  elected
• 23:21
  pope,
• 23:21
  he
• 23:21
  was
• 23:22
  really
• 23:22
  shocked.
• 23:24
  I'm
• 23:24
  glad
• 23:25
  to
• 23:25
  know
• 23:25
  that
• 23:25
  he
• 23:25
  takes
• 23:26
  care
• 23:26
  of
• 23:26
  himself,
• 23:26
  plays
• 23:27
  tennis
• 23:27
  and
• 23:27
  things
• 23:27
  like
• 23:27
  that,
• 23:28
  because
• 23:29
  we
• 23:29
  need
• 23:29
  a
• 23:29
  better
• 23:30
  example,
• 23:30
  you
• 23:31
  know,
• 23:31
  for
• 23:31
  those
• 23:31
  of
• 23:31
  us
• 23:31
  who
• 23:32
  are
• 23:32
  workaholics.
• 23:33
  But
• 23:33
  Pope
• 23:33
  Leo,
• 23:34
  you
• 23:34
  know,
• 23:34
  he's
• 23:35
  a.
• 23:35
  He's
• 23:35
  a
• 23:35
  man
• 23:35
  who's
• 23:35
  going
• 23:36
  to
• 23:36
  bring
• 23:36
  balance
• 23:36
  and
• 23:37
  discipline.
• 23:38
  And
• 23:39
  by
• 23:39
  discipline,
• 23:39
  I
• 23:40
  mean
• 23:40
  the
• 23:40
  helpful
• 23:42
  support
• 23:42
  that
• 23:42
  structures
• 23:43
  and
• 23:44
  systematic
• 23:44
  approaches
• 23:45
  to
• 23:45
  things
• 23:45
  can
• 23:46
  provide.
• 23:47
  He's
• 23:47
  not
• 23:47
  going
• 23:47
  to
• 23:47
  be
• 23:47
  impulsive
• 23:48
  and
• 23:48
  kind
• 23:49
  of
• 23:49
  spontaneous
• 23:50
  in
• 23:50
  the
• 23:50
  way
• 23:50
  that
• 23:50
  Francis
• 23:51
  was.
• 23:51
  And
• 23:52
  he's
• 23:52
  an
• 23:52
  introspective
• 23:53
  person
• 23:53
  in
• 23:54
  a
• 23:54
  different
• 23:54
  way
• 23:54
  as
• 23:55
  an
• 23:55
  introvert.
• 23:56
  So
• 23:57
  he's
• 23:57
  going
• 23:57
  back
• 23:57
  to
• 23:57
  the
• 23:57
  papal
• 23:58
  apartments,
• 23:58
  I
• 23:59
  think,
• 23:59
  just
• 23:59
  to
• 23:59
  be
• 23:59
  able
• 23:59
  to
• 23:59
  collect
• 24:00
  his
• 24:00
  thoughts
• 24:00
  at
• 24:01
  the
• 24:01
  end
• 24:01
  of
• 24:01
  the
• 24:01
  day.
• 24:02
  I
• 24:02
  honestly
• 24:03
  could
• 24:03
  not
• 24:04
  keep
• 24:04
  up
• 24:04
  with
• 24:05
  the
• 24:05
  schedules
• 24:05
  that
• 24:05
  these
• 24:06
  guys
• 24:06
  are
• 24:06
  maintaining
• 24:07
  in
• 24:07
  their
• 24:07
  late
• 24:08
  60s,
• 24:08
  70s
• 24:09
  and
• 24:09
  80s.
• 24:09
  It
• 24:09
  just.
• 24:10
  It's
• 24:10
  incredible.
• 24:11
  Okay,
• 24:11
  I've
• 24:12
  said
• 24:13
  too
• 24:13
  much
• 24:13
  there,
• 24:13
  but
• 24:14
  no,
• 24:14
  thank
• 24:14
  you.
• 24:14
  That's
• 24:15
  so
• 24:15
  helpful.
• 24:16
  Very
• 24:17
  humanizing
• 24:17
  and
• 24:18
  a
• 24:18
  wonderful
• 24:19
  example
• 24:20
  of
• 24:21
  authenticity
• 24:21
  in
• 24:22
  leadership.
• 24:22
  As
• 24:23
  you
• 24:23
  talking
• 24:24
  about
• 24:24
  Pope
• 24:24
  Francis,
• 24:25
  just.
• 24:26
  Just
• 24:27
  offering
• 24:28
  the
• 24:28
  fullness
• 24:28
  of
• 24:29
  his
• 24:29
  being
• 24:30
  on
• 24:30
  public
• 24:30
  display
• 24:31
  is
• 24:32
  just
• 24:32
  a
• 24:32
  wonderful
• 24:33
  lesson
• 24:34
  and
• 24:34
  model
• 24:35
  for
• 24:35
  us
• 24:35
  all.
• 24:36
  Yeah.
• 24:36
  And
• 24:37
  one
• 24:37
  more
• 24:37
  contextual
• 24:38
  thing
• 24:38
  just
• 24:38
  about
• 24:39
  me.
• 24:39
  One
• 24:39
  of
• 24:39
  our
• 24:40
  best
• 24:40
  friends
• 24:40
  is
• 24:41
  a
• 24:41
  Jesuit
• 24:41
  priest
• 24:42
  from
• 24:42
  Ireland,
• 24:43
  and
• 24:43
  he's.
• 24:43
  For
• 24:44
  over
• 24:44
  20
• 24:44
  years
• 24:45
  he's
• 24:45
  been
• 24:45
  coming,
• 24:45
  except
• 24:45
  during
• 24:46
  the
• 24:46
  COVID
• 24:46
  years,
• 24:47
  staying
• 24:48
  with
• 24:48
  us
• 24:48
  for.
• 24:49
  In
• 24:49
  Utah
• 24:49
  and
• 24:50
  for
• 24:51
  a
• 24:51
  month
• 24:51
  to
• 24:52
  six
• 24:52
  weeks.
• 24:53
  And,
• 24:53
  you
• 24:53
  know,
• 24:53
  we
• 24:53
  talk
• 24:54
  every
• 24:54
  month
• 24:54
  on
• 24:54
  the
• 24:54
  phone
• 24:55
  and
• 24:55
  everything.
• 24:55
  So
• 24:55
  I
• 24:55
  feel
• 24:55
  I
• 24:56
  have
• 24:56
  a
• 24:56
  really
• 24:56
  deep
• 24:56
  connection
• 24:57
  with
• 24:57
  the
• 24:57
  Society
• 24:58
  of
• 24:58
  Jesus.
• 24:58
  Oh,
• 24:58
  and
• 24:59
  I
• 24:59
  stayed.
• 24:59
  I
• 24:59
  stayed
• 24:59
  in
• 25:00
  Dublin
• 25:00
  at
• 25:00
  the
• 25:00
  Jesuit
• 25:01
  house
• 25:01
  and
• 25:01
  in
• 25:01
  Belfast,
• 25:02
  too.
• 25:02
  I
• 25:02
  know
• 25:02
  there
• 25:03
  to
• 25:03
  give
• 25:03
  some
• 25:03
  talks
• 25:03
  or
• 25:03
  something.
• 25:04
  And
• 25:04
  anyway,
• 25:05
  so
• 25:05
  there's
• 25:05
  a
• 25:05
  real.
• 25:06
  It's
• 25:06
  a
• 25:06
  real
• 25:06
  personal
• 25:06
  connection
• 25:07
  with
• 25:07
  your.
• 25:08
  Your
• 25:08
  community.
• 25:10
  Nice.
• 25:10
  Nice.
• 25:11
  Yeah.
• 25:11
  Well,
• 25:11
  we're
• 25:12
  always
• 25:12
  grateful
• 25:12
  for
• 25:13
  those
• 25:13
  mutually
• 25:13
  beneficial
• 25:15
  and
• 25:15
  really
• 25:15
  happy
• 25:16
  connections.
• 25:16
  So.
• 25:17
  Yeah.
• 25:19
  David,
• 25:19
  there's
• 25:20
  so
• 25:21
  many
• 25:22
  topics
• 25:22
  we
• 25:22
  could
• 25:23
  get
• 25:23
  into,
• 25:24
  and
• 25:25
  we'll
• 25:26
  see
• 25:26
  which
• 25:26
  ones
• 25:27
  we
• 25:27
  get
• 25:27
  to
• 25:27
  cover.
• 25:28
  But
• 25:29
  first
• 25:29
  I'd
• 25:30
  like
• 25:30
  to
• 25:31
  see
• 25:32
  what
• 25:32
  your.
• 25:33
  You
• 25:33
  have
• 25:34
  a
• 25:34
  rare
• 25:36
  scope
• 25:37
  of
• 25:37
  vision
• 25:38
  and
• 25:38
  you've
• 25:39
  deliberately
• 25:40
  marinated
• 25:40
  yourself
• 25:41
  in
• 25:42
  meta
• 25:42
  theories,
• 25:43
  these
• 25:43
  big
• 25:43
  pictures
• 25:44
  theories,
• 25:45
  these
• 25:45
  big
• 25:45
  picture
• 25:46
  ways
• 25:46
  of
• 25:46
  understanding
• 25:47
  life
• 25:47
  and
• 25:48
  ourselves
• 25:48
  and.
• 25:49
  And
• 25:49
  religion.
• 25:51
  And
• 25:52
  I
• 25:52
  wonder
• 25:52
  how
• 25:54
  your
• 25:55
  understanding
• 25:55
  of,
• 25:55
  for
• 25:56
  example,
• 25:56
  adult
• 25:57
  development,
• 25:58
  states
• 25:58
  of
• 25:58
  consciousness
• 26:00
  inform
• 26:02
  and
• 26:02
  enrich
• 26:03
  your
• 26:03
  understanding
• 26:04
  of
• 26:04
  both
• 26:05
  religion
• 26:05
  in
• 26:05
  general
• 26:06
  and
• 26:06
  the
• 26:06
  church
• 26:07
  in
• 26:07
  particular.
• 26:09
  Yeah,
• 26:09
  well,
• 26:09
  I'm
• 26:10
  grateful
• 26:10
  for
• 26:10
  the
• 26:10
  Question.
• 26:11
  When
• 26:11
  I
• 26:11
  was
• 26:11
  studying
• 26:12
  theology
• 26:12
  in
• 26:13
  the
• 26:13
  late
• 26:13
  90s,
• 26:15
  I
• 26:15
  was
• 26:15
  first
• 26:15
  exposed
• 26:16
  to
• 26:16
  Bob
• 26:16
  Keegan's
• 26:17
  work.
• 26:17
  I
• 26:17
  was
• 26:17
  there
• 26:18
  at
• 26:18
  the
• 26:18
  Western
• 26:18
  Jesuit
• 26:19
  School
• 26:19
  of
• 26:19
  Theology
• 26:19
  in
• 26:20
  Cambridge
• 26:20
  and
• 26:20
  had
• 26:20
  a
• 26:21
  chance
• 26:21
  to
• 26:21
  meet
• 26:21
  with
• 26:22
  him
• 26:22
  and
• 26:22
  read
• 26:23
  the
• 26:23
  Evolving
• 26:23
  Self
• 26:24
  and
• 26:24
  In
• 26:24
  Over
• 26:24
  Our
• 26:25
  Heads.
• 26:26
  And
• 26:26
  I
• 26:26
  remember
• 26:27
  the
• 26:27
  first
• 26:27
  time
• 26:28
  I
• 26:28
  was
• 26:28
  going
• 26:28
  to
• 26:29
  have
• 26:29
  a
• 26:29
  meeting
• 26:29
  with
• 26:29
  him
• 26:30
  in
• 26:30
  his
• 26:30
  office
• 26:30
  there
• 26:31
  at
• 26:31
  the
• 26:31
  Education
• 26:31
  school.
• 26:32
  And
• 26:33
  I
• 26:33
  was
• 26:33
  very
• 26:33
  nervous.
• 26:34
  I
• 26:34
  got
• 26:34
  there
• 26:35
  maybe
• 26:35
  45
• 26:36
  minutes
• 26:36
  early,
• 26:37
  and
• 26:37
  I
• 26:37
  was
• 26:37
  alone
• 26:38
  for
• 26:38
  the
• 26:38
  better
• 26:38
  part
• 26:39
  of
• 26:39
  40
• 26:39
  minutes.
• 26:39
  And
• 26:40
  then
• 26:40
  at
• 26:40
  45
• 26:41
  minutes,
• 26:42
  the
• 26:42
  line
• 26:43
  behind
• 26:43
  me
• 26:43
  was
• 26:44
  enormous
• 26:44
  of
• 26:45
  people
• 26:45
  who
• 26:45
  were
• 26:45
  lined
• 26:45
  up
• 26:46
  to
• 26:46
  see
• 26:46
  Bob.
• 26:47
  And
• 26:47
  he
• 26:47
  comes
• 26:48
  walking
• 26:48
  to
• 26:49
  the
• 26:49
  front
• 26:49
  of
• 26:49
  the
• 26:49
  line,
• 26:49
  looks
• 26:50
  at
• 26:50
  me
• 26:50
  and
• 26:50
  says,
• 26:50
  I
• 26:51
  think
• 26:51
  you're
• 26:51
  first.
• 26:52
  And,
• 26:53
  you
• 26:53
  know,
• 26:53
  leads
• 26:54
  me
• 26:54
  into
• 26:54
  his
• 26:54
  office.
• 26:55
  I
• 26:55
  must
• 26:56
  have
• 26:56
  been
• 26:56
  sweating
• 26:57
  or
• 26:57
  like,
• 26:57
  you
• 26:58
  know,
• 26:58
  wild
• 26:58
  eyed,
• 26:59
  because
• 26:59
  he
• 27:00
  looks
• 27:00
  at
• 27:00
  me
• 27:01
  and
• 27:01
  he
• 27:01
  smiles
• 27:02
  and
• 27:02
  he
• 27:02
  says,
• 27:02
  do
• 27:02
  you
• 27:02
  want
• 27:02
  a
• 27:02
  bite
• 27:03
  of
• 27:03
  my
• 27:03
  sandwich?
• 27:05
  And
• 27:05
  it
• 27:05
  completely,
• 27:06
  completely
• 27:07
  made
• 27:07
  me,
• 27:07
  you
• 27:08
  know,
• 27:08
  kind
• 27:08
  of
• 27:08
  at
• 27:08
  home.
• 27:09
  And
• 27:10
  then
• 27:10
  I
• 27:10
  sat
• 27:10
  in
• 27:10
  his
• 27:11
  office
• 27:11
  and
• 27:11
  noticed
• 27:12
  a
• 27:12
  whole
• 27:13
  shelf
• 27:14
  of
• 27:14
  Ken
• 27:15
  Wilbur's
• 27:16
  collected
• 27:16
  works.
• 27:17
  And
• 27:17
  I
• 27:17
  said,
• 27:17
  oh
• 27:18
  my
• 27:18
  gosh,
• 27:18
  you're
• 27:18
  reading
• 27:19
  Ken
• 27:19
  Wilbur.
• 27:20
  And
• 27:20
  he
• 27:20
  said,
• 27:21
  well,
• 27:21
  not
• 27:22
  reading
• 27:22
  Ken
• 27:22
  Wilber.
• 27:23
  Ken
• 27:23
  sent
• 27:23
  me
• 27:24
  all
• 27:24
  these.
• 27:26
  So
• 27:27
  again,
• 27:27
  kind
• 27:27
  of
• 27:27
  this
• 27:28
  easy,
• 27:28
  easy
• 27:29
  relationship.
• 27:29
  And
• 27:30
  then,
• 27:31
  you
• 27:31
  know,
• 27:31
  to
• 27:31
  be
• 27:31
  honest
• 27:32
  with
• 27:32
  you,
• 27:32
  Roger,
• 27:32
  I.
• 27:33
  I
• 27:33
  was
• 27:33
  at
• 27:33
  that
• 27:34
  stage
• 27:34
  when
• 27:35
  reading
• 27:36
  theories
• 27:36
  like
• 27:36
  that
• 27:37
  where
• 27:37
  all
• 27:38
  of
• 27:38
  a
• 27:38
  sudden
• 27:38
  that's
• 27:39
  all
• 27:39
  you
• 27:39
  can
• 27:39
  see
• 27:39
  and
• 27:40
  all
• 27:40
  you
• 27:40
  can
• 27:40
  see
• 27:40
  through.
• 27:41
  And
• 27:42
  he
• 27:42
  could
• 27:42
  tell,
• 27:43
  you
• 27:43
  know,
• 27:43
  and
• 27:43
  he
• 27:43
  said,
• 27:43
  oh
• 27:44
  gosh,
• 27:44
  you
• 27:44
  know,
• 27:45
  you've
• 27:46
  caught
• 27:46
  the
• 27:46
  bug.
• 27:47
  And
• 27:47
  he
• 27:48
  basically
• 27:48
  helped
• 27:49
  me
• 27:49
  to
• 27:49
  take
• 27:49
  a
• 27:49
  little
• 27:49
  bit
• 27:49
  of
• 27:50
  a
• 27:50
  subject,
• 27:50
  object
• 27:51
  move
• 27:51
  at
• 27:51
  that
• 27:51
  moment
• 27:52
  about
• 27:53
  how
• 27:53
  totalizing,
• 27:54
  you
• 27:55
  know,
• 27:55
  this
• 27:55
  constructive
• 27:56
  developmental
• 27:57
  view
• 27:58
  had
• 27:58
  become
• 27:58
  for
• 27:58
  me
• 27:59
  and
• 27:59
  to
• 27:59
  hold
• 28:00
  it
• 28:00
  lightly.
• 28:01
  And
• 28:01
  I
• 28:01
  will
• 28:01
  tell
• 28:01
  you
• 28:02
  that
• 28:02
  to
• 28:02
  this
• 28:02
  day,
• 28:03
  I
• 28:03
  remember
• 28:03
  that
• 28:04
  encounter.
• 28:04
  I
• 28:05
  remember
• 28:05
  how
• 28:06
  gracious
• 28:06
  he
• 28:06
  was.
• 28:07
  I
• 28:07
  remember
• 28:08
  how
• 28:09
  I
• 28:09
  appreciated
• 28:10
  that
• 28:10
  someone
• 28:11
  who
• 28:11
  had
• 28:11
  generated
• 28:12
  such
• 28:12
  a
• 28:12
  powerful
• 28:12
  theory
• 28:13
  could
• 28:13
  also
• 28:13
  hold
• 28:14
  it
• 28:14
  with
• 28:15
  a
• 28:15
  bit
• 28:15
  of
• 28:15
  a
• 28:16
  light
• 28:16
  touch.
• 28:17
  And
• 28:18
  I
• 28:18
  share
• 28:18
  all
• 28:18
  that
• 28:19
  to
• 28:19
  say
• 28:19
  that
• 28:19
  that's
• 28:19
  been
• 28:20
  my
• 28:20
  approach
• 28:20
  with
• 28:21
  all
• 28:21
  the
• 28:21
  meta
• 28:21
  theories
• 28:22
  I've
• 28:22
  read
• 28:22
  since
• 28:23
  then.
• 28:23
  You
• 28:24
  know,
• 28:24
  I.
• 28:24
  I
• 28:24
  really
• 28:25
  can
• 28:25
  appreciate
• 28:26
  their
• 28:26
  tremendous
• 28:27
  power
• 28:27
  as
• 28:28
  lenses
• 28:29
  to
• 28:29
  help
• 28:29
  us
• 28:29
  to
• 28:29
  see
• 28:30
  and
• 28:30
  perceive
• 28:30
  things.
• 28:31
  But
• 28:31
  I
• 28:31
  also
• 28:32
  am
• 28:32
  someone
• 28:33
  who
• 28:33
  likes
• 28:33
  to
• 28:33
  hold
• 28:34
  them
• 28:34
  lightly
• 28:34
  enough
• 28:35
  to
• 28:35
  see
• 28:35
  their
• 28:36
  shortcomings
• 28:37
  and
• 28:37
  their
• 28:38
  strengths
• 28:38
  and
• 28:39
  to
• 28:39
  see
• 28:39
  how
• 28:39
  they
• 28:39
  play
• 28:40
  with
• 28:40
  one
• 28:40
  another.
• 28:41
  And
• 28:42
  for
• 28:42
  me,
• 28:43
  I
• 28:43
  think
• 28:43
  the
• 28:43
  moment
• 28:44
  we're
• 28:44
  living
• 28:44
  in,
• 28:45
  this
• 28:45
  moment
• 28:46
  of
• 28:46
  such
• 28:47
  complexity
• 28:48
  and
• 28:48
  volatility,
• 28:49
  so
• 28:49
  much
• 28:50
  uncertainty
• 28:50
  and
• 28:51
  ambiguity,
• 28:51
  you
• 28:51
  know,
• 28:51
  these
• 28:52
  VUCA
• 28:52
  times,
• 28:54
  we
• 28:54
  benefit
• 28:55
  from
• 28:55
  these
• 28:56
  meta
• 28:56
  theories
• 28:57
  in
• 28:57
  a.
• 28:57
  In
• 28:57
  a
• 28:57
  very
• 28:58
  real
• 28:58
  way
• 28:59
  to
• 28:59
  try
• 28:59
  to
• 28:59
  make
• 29:00
  Sense
• 29:00
  of
• 29:01
  a
• 29:01
  change
• 29:01
  of
• 29:01
  era
• 29:02
  that
• 29:02
  we're
• 29:03
  going
• 29:03
  through,
• 29:03
  you
• 29:04
  know,
• 29:04
  so,
• 29:05
  you
• 29:05
  know,
• 29:05
  if
• 29:05
  you
• 29:05
  and
• 29:05
  John
• 29:06
  were
• 29:06
  a
• 29:06
  little
• 29:07
  bit
• 29:07
  ahead
• 29:07
  of
• 29:07
  me
• 29:07
  in
• 29:07
  the
• 29:07
  60s,
• 29:08
  I
• 29:08
  was
• 29:08
  born
• 29:09
  in
• 29:09
  1968.
• 29:10
  You
• 29:11
  came
• 29:11
  to
• 29:12
  consciousness
• 29:12
  and
• 29:13
  adulthood,
• 29:14
  you
• 29:14
  know,
• 29:14
  really
• 29:15
  as
• 29:15
  that
• 29:16
  postmodern
• 29:17
  time
• 29:17
  was
• 29:17
  really
• 29:18
  starting
• 29:18
  to
• 29:19
  trickle
• 29:19
  up
• 29:20
  right
• 29:20
  in
• 29:20
  our
• 29:20
  consciousness.
• 29:22
  For
• 29:22
  me,
• 29:22
  you
• 29:23
  know,
• 29:23
  living
• 29:24
  with
• 29:24
  the
• 29:25
  benefits
• 29:25
  of
• 29:25
  that
• 29:26
  over
• 29:26
  the
• 29:26
  last
• 29:27
  50
• 29:27
  some
• 29:28
  odd
• 29:28
  years,
• 29:29
  I
• 29:29
  think
• 29:29
  I've
• 29:30
  really
• 29:31
  come
• 29:31
  to
• 29:31
  see
• 29:31
  how
• 29:32
  now
• 29:32
  we're
• 29:32
  living
• 29:33
  into
• 29:33
  a
• 29:33
  new
• 29:34
  moment,
• 29:34
  a
• 29:34
  new
• 29:34
  age,
• 29:36
  and
• 29:36
  it
• 29:36
  is
• 29:37
  very,
• 29:37
  very
• 29:38
  murky.
• 29:39
  And
• 29:40
  this
• 29:40
  is
• 29:40
  not
• 29:41
  just,
• 29:41
  as
• 29:41
  Francis
• 29:42
  would
• 29:42
  say,
• 29:42
  it's
• 29:42
  not
• 29:42
  just
• 29:43
  a
• 29:43
  time
• 29:43
  of
• 29:44
  change,
• 29:44
  it
• 29:44
  is
• 29:44
  a
• 29:44
  time
• 29:45
  of
• 29:45
  changes.
• 29:46
  Like
• 29:46
  we
• 29:46
  are
• 29:46
  literally
• 29:48
  living
• 29:48
  through
• 29:48
  a
• 29:49
  change
• 29:49
  of
• 29:49
  eras.
• 29:51
  I
• 29:52
  don't
• 29:52
  think
• 29:52
  any
• 29:52
  of
• 29:53
  our
• 29:53
  meta
• 29:53
  theories
• 29:54
  can
• 29:54
  predict
• 29:55
  exactly
• 29:55
  what
• 29:56
  it's
• 29:56
  going
• 29:56
  to
• 29:56
  look
• 29:56
  like
• 29:56
  on
• 29:56
  the
• 29:57
  other
• 29:57
  end.
• 29:58
  But
• 29:58
  what
• 29:58
  they
• 29:58
  do
• 29:59
  help
• 29:59
  us,
• 30:00
  I
• 30:00
  think,
• 30:00
  to
• 30:00
  do,
• 30:00
  is
• 30:01
  to
• 30:01
  have
• 30:01
  a
• 30:01
  little
• 30:01
  bit
• 30:02
  of
• 30:02
  a
• 30:03
  map
• 30:04
  of
• 30:04
  what
• 30:04
  could
• 30:04
  be.
• 30:05
  And
• 30:06
  I
• 30:06
  like
• 30:07
  maps
• 30:07
  because
• 30:07
  they
• 30:07
  give
• 30:08
  us
• 30:08
  choices.
• 30:09
  And
• 30:09
  I
• 30:10
  think
• 30:10
  we,
• 30:10
  we're
• 30:11
  really
• 30:11
  confronted
• 30:12
  with
• 30:12
  a
• 30:12
  lot
• 30:12
  of
• 30:13
  very,
• 30:13
  very
• 30:13
  critical
• 30:14
  choices
• 30:14
  right
• 30:15
  now
• 30:15
  about
• 30:16
  to
• 30:16
  what
• 30:17
  extent
• 30:17
  we
• 30:17
  want
• 30:18
  to
• 30:18
  live
• 30:18
  our
• 30:18
  lives
• 30:19
  passively,
• 30:20
  recipients
• 30:21
  of
• 30:21
  the
• 30:22
  meaning
• 30:22
  and
• 30:22
  the
• 30:22
  constructs
• 30:23
  that
• 30:24
  we've
• 30:24
  received,
• 30:24
  or
• 30:25
  how
• 30:25
  much,
• 30:26
  you
• 30:26
  know,
• 30:26
  we
• 30:26
  want
• 30:27
  to
• 30:27
  be
• 30:27
  discerning
• 30:28
  and
• 30:28
  dreaming
• 30:29
  and
• 30:29
  designing
• 30:30
  the
• 30:31
  future
• 30:31
  that
• 30:31
  we,
• 30:31
  we
• 30:32
  want
• 30:32
  to
• 30:32
  live
• 30:32
  together.
• 30:34
  So,
• 30:35
  you
• 30:35
  know,
• 30:35
  I
• 30:35
  think
• 30:36
  that
• 30:36
  these
• 30:36
  meta
• 30:37
  theories
• 30:37
  can
• 30:37
  be
• 30:37
  incredibly
• 30:39
  instrumental
• 30:39
  tools
• 30:40
  for
• 30:40
  us.
• 30:41
  And
• 30:42
  at
• 30:42
  the
• 30:42
  same
• 30:42
  time,
• 30:43
  you
• 30:43
  know,
• 30:43
  they
• 30:43
  all
• 30:43
  have
• 30:44
  their
• 30:44
  caveats.
• 30:45
  And
• 30:45
  I
• 30:45
  think
• 30:45
  one
• 30:45
  of
• 30:45
  the
• 30:45
  big
• 30:46
  caveats
• 30:46
  that
• 30:47
  I'm
• 30:47
  aware
• 30:47
  of
• 30:48
  is
• 30:48
  that
• 30:48
  because
• 30:49
  so
• 30:50
  many
• 30:50
  of
• 30:50
  us
• 30:50
  continue
• 30:51
  to
• 30:52
  work
• 30:52
  through,
• 30:53
  I
• 30:53
  would
• 30:53
  say,
• 30:53
  the
• 30:54
  late
• 30:54
  conventional
• 30:55
  stages,
• 30:56
  these
• 30:56
  theories
• 30:57
  are
• 30:57
  often
• 30:57
  taken
• 30:58
  in
• 30:58
  and
• 30:59
  applied
• 30:59
  in
• 30:59
  a
• 31:00
  way
• 31:00
  that's
• 31:00
  reductionistic
• 31:01
  and
• 31:01
  totalizing,
• 31:02
  just
• 31:02
  like
• 31:03
  I
• 31:03
  had
• 31:03
  that
• 31:03
  experience
• 31:04
  in
• 31:04
  the
• 31:04
  late
• 31:04
  90s.
• 31:05
  And
• 31:06
  that
• 31:06
  can
• 31:06
  be
• 31:07
  abusive.
• 31:08
  So
• 31:09
  how
• 31:09
  to
• 31:09
  be
• 31:09
  skillful,
• 31:10
  how
• 31:10
  to
• 31:10
  be
• 31:11
  wise
• 31:11
  in
• 31:11
  the
• 31:12
  way
• 31:12
  we
• 31:12
  hold
• 31:12
  these.
• 31:13
  Yeah.
• 31:13
  How
• 31:13
  to
• 31:13
  keep
• 31:13
  the
• 31:13
  baby
• 31:14
  in
• 31:14
  up,
• 31:14
  throw
• 31:15
  it
• 31:15
  out
• 31:15
  with
• 31:15
  the
• 31:15
  bathwater.
• 31:16
  Exactly.
• 31:16
  You
• 31:16
  know,
• 31:16
  how
• 31:16
  to
• 31:16
  hold
• 31:17
  this
• 31:17
  with
• 31:17
  wisdom
• 31:18
  and
• 31:18
  compassion
• 31:18
  and
• 31:19
  not
• 31:19
  just
• 31:19
  intellectual,
• 31:21
  but
• 31:21
  spiritualized
• 31:22
  too,
• 31:22
  I
• 31:23
  think
• 31:23
  would
• 31:23
  be
• 31:23
  very
• 31:23
  important.
• 31:24
  Exactly.
• 31:26
  And
• 31:26
  David,
• 31:27
  there
• 31:27
  are
• 31:28
  so
• 31:28
  many
• 31:30
  you
• 31:30
  mentioned.
• 31:30
  This
• 31:30
  is
• 31:31
  a
• 31:31
  time
• 31:31
  of
• 31:31
  changes,
• 31:33
  quoting
• 31:34
  Pope
• 31:34
  Francis.
• 31:35
  And
• 31:36
  not
• 31:37
  only
• 31:37
  so
• 31:37
  many
• 31:37
  changes
• 31:38
  in
• 31:38
  the
• 31:38
  world
• 31:39
  and
• 31:39
  society,
• 31:40
  but
• 31:40
  within
• 31:40
  religion.
• 31:41
  And
• 31:42
  I'd
• 31:42
  just
• 31:42
  mention
• 31:43
  a
• 31:43
  couple
• 31:43
  which
• 31:44
  kind
• 31:44
  of
• 31:45
  seem
• 31:45
  like
• 31:45
  polar
• 31:45
  opposites
• 31:46
  and
• 31:46
  love
• 31:46
  to
• 31:47
  hear
• 31:48
  any
• 31:48
  thoughts
• 31:49
  you
• 31:49
  have.
• 31:49
  On
• 31:49
  one
• 31:50
  hand,
• 31:50
  we
• 31:51
  have
• 31:51
  a
• 31:51
  sweeping
• 31:52
  movement
• 31:52
  of
• 31:52
  secularization.
• 31:53
  Some
• 31:54
  40%
• 31:54
  of
• 31:55
  people
• 31:55
  in
• 31:55
  the
• 31:55
  United
• 31:55
  States
• 31:56
  now
• 31:57
  claim
• 31:57
  they're
• 31:58
  not
• 31:58
  religious.
• 31:59
  They
• 31:59
  may
• 31:59
  have
• 31:59
  spiritual
• 32:00
  ideas
• 32:01
  and
• 32:01
  beliefs,
• 32:01
  but
• 32:02
  explicitly
• 32:03
  not
• 32:03
  religious.
• 32:03
  And
• 32:05
  there's
• 32:05
  a
• 32:05
  lot
• 32:05
  of
• 32:06
  research
• 32:06
  on
• 32:06
  those
• 32:07
  people.
• 32:07
  They
• 32:07
  tend
• 32:07
  to
• 32:08
  tend
• 32:08
  to
• 32:08
  be
• 32:08
  more
• 32:08
  independent
• 32:09
  thinkers,
• 32:09
  but
• 32:09
  they
• 32:10
  tend
• 32:10
  to
• 32:10
  be
• 32:10
  less
• 32:10
  happy.
• 32:11
  On
• 32:11
  the
• 32:11
  one,
• 32:11
  on
• 32:12
  the
• 32:12
  other
• 32:12
  hand,
• 32:13
  tend
• 32:13
  to
• 32:13
  be
• 32:13
  a
• 32:13
  little
• 32:14
  more
• 32:14
  troubled.
• 32:15
  On
• 32:15
  the
• 32:15
  other
• 32:15
  hand,
• 32:16
  we
• 32:16
  have
• 32:16
  a
• 32:17
  burgeoning
• 32:18
  fundamentalism
• 32:19
  and
• 32:19
  not
• 32:19
  only
• 32:20
  in
• 32:21
  United
• 32:22
  States
• 32:22
  and
• 32:22
  the
• 32:23
  west,
• 32:23
  but
• 32:23
  around
• 32:24
  the
• 32:24
  world.
• 32:25
  Yeah,
• 32:25
  not
• 32:26
  only
• 32:26
  Christianity.
• 32:26
  I
• 32:27
  mean,
• 32:27
  you
• 32:27
  know,
• 32:27
  all
• 32:27
  the
• 32:27
  major
• 32:28
  religions,
• 32:28
  same
• 32:28
  issues.
• 32:29
  Yeah.
• 32:30
  So
• 32:31
  we
• 32:31
  have
• 32:31
  these
• 32:32
  two
• 32:32
  apparently
• 32:33
  opposite
• 32:33
  trends
• 32:34
  going
• 32:34
  on.
• 32:35
  Love
• 32:35
  to
• 32:35
  hear
• 32:35
  you
• 32:36
  your
• 32:36
  reflections.
• 32:39
  Well,
• 32:39
  you
• 32:40
  know,
• 32:40
  sociologists
• 32:41
  in
• 32:41
  the
• 32:41
  late
• 32:41
  80s
• 32:42
  were
• 32:42
  really
• 32:42
  anticipating
• 32:43
  that
• 32:43
  in
• 32:44
  the
• 32:44
  United
• 32:44
  States
• 32:44
  we
• 32:44
  were
• 32:45
  going
• 32:45
  to
• 32:45
  see
• 32:45
  secularism
• 32:46
  rise.
• 32:47
  And
• 32:48
  then
• 32:48
  911
• 32:48
  happened
• 32:49
  and
• 32:49
  911
• 32:50
  catalyzed,
• 32:51
  I
• 32:51
  think
• 32:51
  a
• 32:51
  lot
• 32:52
  of
• 32:52
  searching
• 32:53
  around
• 32:53
  what's
• 32:53
  the
• 32:54
  role
• 32:54
  of
• 32:54
  religion?
• 32:55
  And
• 32:55
  if
• 32:56
  in
• 32:56
  the
• 32:56
  face
• 32:56
  of
• 32:56
  fundamentalism
• 32:57
  from
• 32:58
  radicals
• 32:59
  willing
• 32:59
  to
• 32:59
  use
• 33:00
  it
• 33:00
  as
• 33:00
  a
• 33:00
  legitimation
• 33:01
  for
• 33:01
  violence,
• 33:02
  what
• 33:02
  do
• 33:02
  we
• 33:02
  believe?
• 33:03
  And
• 33:04
  so
• 33:04
  there
• 33:04
  was
• 33:04
  a
• 33:04
  kind
• 33:04
  of
• 33:05
  uptick
• 33:05
  of
• 33:05
  religion.
• 33:06
  Again,
• 33:06
  you
• 33:06
  know,
• 33:07
  that
• 33:07
  the
• 33:07
  American
• 33:08
  experience
• 33:09
  of
• 33:09
  religiosity
• 33:10
  is
• 33:10
  quite
• 33:11
  unusual
• 33:11
  in
• 33:12
  fact,
• 33:12
  in
• 33:12
  many
• 33:12
  ways
• 33:13
  from
• 33:13
  the
• 33:13
  19th
• 33:14
  into
• 33:14
  the
• 33:14
  20th
• 33:15
  century.
• 33:15
  It's
• 33:16
  kind
• 33:16
  of
• 33:16
  an
• 33:16
  anomaly
• 33:17
  for
• 33:17
  the
• 33:18
  number
• 33:18
  of
• 33:18
  people
• 33:18
  who
• 33:18
  are
• 33:19
  adherents
• 33:19
  of
• 33:19
  a
• 33:20
  kind
• 33:20
  of
• 33:20
  institutional
• 33:21
  faith,
• 33:22
  but
• 33:22
  at
• 33:22
  least,
• 33:23
  you
• 33:23
  know,
• 33:23
  in
• 33:23
  modern
• 33:24
  times.
• 33:24
  And
• 33:25
  then,
• 33:25
  you
• 33:26
  know,
• 33:26
  I
• 33:26
  think
• 33:26
  that
• 33:26
  there's
• 33:27
  so
• 33:27
  many
• 33:27
  parts
• 33:27
  of
• 33:27
  the
• 33:27
  world
• 33:28
  where
• 33:29
  without
• 33:30
  some
• 33:31
  faith,
• 33:31
  there's
• 33:32
  no
• 33:32
  way
• 33:32
  of
• 33:33
  reconciling
• 33:33
  to
• 33:34
  the
• 33:34
  experience
• 33:34
  of
• 33:34
  suffering.
• 33:35
  So
• 33:36
  without
• 33:36
  some
• 33:36
  meaningful
• 33:37
  spiritual
• 33:38
  lens
• 33:39
  and
• 33:39
  some
• 33:39
  experience
• 33:40
  of
• 33:40
  a
• 33:40
  community,
• 33:41
  how
• 33:41
  can
• 33:42
  we
• 33:42
  make
• 33:43
  sense
• 33:43
  of
• 33:43
  the
• 33:43
  crushing
• 33:44
  poverty,
• 33:45
  the
• 33:45
  war,
• 33:46
  the
• 33:46
  experiences
• 33:47
  of
• 33:47
  violence
• 33:47
  that
• 33:47
  so
• 33:47
  many
• 33:48
  people
• 33:48
  experience
• 33:49
  in
• 33:49
  the
• 33:49
  secular
• 33:50
  West?
• 33:50
  I
• 33:51
  think
• 33:51
  you've
• 33:51
  got
• 33:52
  a
• 33:52
  rise
• 33:52
  of
• 33:52
  a
• 33:53
  materialistic,
• 33:54
  yes,
• 33:54
  imperialism
• 33:55
  as
• 33:55
  well,
• 33:56
  but
• 33:56
  empiricism,
• 33:57
  kind
• 33:58
  of
• 33:58
  scientific
• 33:58
  thinking
• 33:59
  that's
• 33:59
  reified
• 34:00
  as
• 34:01
  if
• 34:01
  it's
• 34:02
  kind
• 34:02
  of
• 34:03
  polarity
• 34:04
  with
• 34:04
  faith.
• 34:05
  And
• 34:05
  that's
• 34:05
  a
• 34:05
  product
• 34:06
  of,
• 34:06
  I
• 34:06
  think,
• 34:07
  either
• 34:07
  or
• 34:07
  thinking.
• 34:08
  And
• 34:09
  so
• 34:09
  long
• 34:09
  as
• 34:09
  we
• 34:10
  continue
• 34:10
  to
• 34:11
  operate
• 34:11
  in
• 34:12
  kind
• 34:12
  of
• 34:12
  a
• 34:12
  dualistic
• 34:13
  cognitive
• 34:14
  pattern,
• 34:14
  it's
• 34:14
  just
• 34:14
  natural
• 34:15
  that
• 34:15
  we're
• 34:16
  going
• 34:16
  to
• 34:16
  see
• 34:16
  people
• 34:17
  making
• 34:17
  those
• 34:18
  very
• 34:18
  easy
• 34:19
  compromises.
• 34:20
  You
• 34:20
  know,
• 34:20
  I'm
• 34:21
  just
• 34:21
  not
• 34:21
  going
• 34:21
  to
• 34:21
  go
• 34:22
  with
• 34:22
  faith.
• 34:23
  I'm
• 34:23
  going
• 34:23
  to
• 34:23
  let
• 34:23
  it
• 34:23
  go
• 34:23
  because
• 34:24
  science
• 34:25
  has
• 34:25
  got
• 34:25
  a
• 34:25
  stronger
• 34:25
  narrative.
• 34:28
  I
• 34:28
  think,
• 34:28
  you
• 34:29
  know,
• 34:29
  those
• 34:29
  things
• 34:29
  are
• 34:29
  going
• 34:30
  to
• 34:30
  continue
• 34:30
  to
• 34:30
  coexist.
• 34:32
  A
• 34:33
  kind
• 34:33
  of
• 34:33
  atheistic
• 34:35
  sort
• 34:35
  of
• 34:35
  secularism
• 34:36
  and
• 34:36
  an
• 34:37
  aggressive
• 34:37
  secularism
• 34:39
  and
• 34:39
  also,
• 34:40
  you
• 34:40
  know,
• 34:41
  fundamentalism.
• 34:42
  But
• 34:42
  it's
• 34:42
  going
• 34:42
  to
• 34:42
  be
• 34:43
  largely
• 34:43
  dependent
• 34:43
  on
• 34:44
  class,
• 34:46
  unfortunately,
• 34:47
  on
• 34:47
  the
• 34:48
  degree
• 34:48
  to
• 34:49
  which
• 34:49
  people
• 34:49
  have
• 34:49
  access,
• 34:51
  you
• 34:51
  know,
• 34:51
  to
• 34:52
  education.
• 34:53
  And
• 34:53
  that's
• 34:54
  not
• 34:54
  to
• 34:54
  say
• 34:54
  that
• 34:54
  there
• 34:55
  aren't,
• 34:55
  you
• 34:55
  know,
• 34:55
  plenty
• 34:56
  of
• 34:56
  well
• 34:56
  educated
• 34:57
  people
• 34:57
  who
• 34:57
  are
• 34:58
  are
• 34:58
  also,
• 34:59
  you
• 34:59
  know,
• 34:59
  prone
• 34:59
  to,
• 35:00
  to
• 35:00
  fundamentalism.
• 35:01
  I
• 35:02
  think
• 35:02
  that
• 35:02
  it's
• 35:03
  a
• 35:03
  very
• 35:03
  seductive
• 35:04
  narrative
• 35:05
  for
• 35:05
  people,
• 35:05
  no
• 35:06
  matter
• 35:06
  what
• 35:06
  their
• 35:06
  iq,
• 35:08
  if
• 35:08
  their
• 35:08
  ways
• 35:09
  of
• 35:09
  thinking
• 35:09
  continue
• 35:09
  to
• 35:10
  be
• 35:10
  kind
• 35:10
  of
• 35:10
  black
• 35:11
  and
• 35:11
  white.
• 35:11
  It
• 35:12
  answers
• 35:12
  all
• 35:12
  the
• 35:12
  questions,
• 35:13
  you
• 35:13
  know,
• 35:13
  you
• 35:13
  have
• 35:14
  it
• 35:14
  all
• 35:14
  laid
• 35:14
  out,
• 35:14
  makes
• 35:15
  it
• 35:15
  things
• 35:15
  a
• 35:15
  lot
• 35:15
  easier.
• 35:16
  Yeah,
• 35:17
  on
• 35:17
  both
• 35:17
  sides
• 35:18
  in
• 35:18
  some
• 35:18
  ways,
• 35:19
  the
• 35:19
  harder
• 35:20
  work
• 35:20
  is
• 35:20
  the
• 35:20
  synthetic
• 35:21
  work.
• 35:21
  You
• 35:22
  know,
• 35:22
  I
• 35:22
  think
• 35:22
  of
• 35:23
  people
• 35:23
  like
• 35:23
  Teilhard
• 35:24
  de
• 35:24
  Chardin,
• 35:24
  this,
• 35:25
  you
• 35:25
  know,
• 35:25
  Jesuit
• 35:26
  paleontologist.
• 35:27
  He
• 35:27
  had
• 35:27
  a
• 35:27
  brilliant
• 35:28
  mind
• 35:28
  and
• 35:29
  was,
• 35:29
  well,
• 35:30
  you
• 35:30
  know,
• 35:31
  respected
• 35:32
  as
• 35:32
  a
• 35:32
  paleontologist,
• 35:33
  but
• 35:33
  a
• 35:33
  profound
• 35:34
  faith
• 35:34
  and
• 35:35
  somehow
• 35:36
  was
• 35:36
  able
• 35:36
  to
• 35:36
  bring
• 35:36
  these
• 35:37
  things
• 35:37
  together.
• 35:38
  Or
• 35:38
  George
• 35:38
  Coyne,
• 35:39
  director
• 35:40
  of
• 35:40
  Vatican
• 35:40
  Observatory
• 35:41
  for
• 35:41
  many
• 35:41
  years.
• 35:42
  I
• 35:42
  had
• 35:43
  the
• 35:43
  privilege
• 35:43
  of
• 35:43
  living
• 35:43
  with
• 35:44
  him.
• 35:44
  And
• 35:44
  George
• 35:45
  was
• 35:45
  someone
• 35:45
  who
• 35:46
  was
• 35:46
  constantly
• 35:47
  invited
• 35:48
  to
• 35:48
  dialogue
• 35:49
  with
• 35:49
  the
• 35:49
  big,
• 35:50
  you
• 35:50
  know,
• 35:50
  kind
• 35:50
  of
• 35:51
  brand
• 35:51
  name
• 35:51
  atheists.
• 35:53
  And
• 35:53
  they
• 35:53
  were
• 35:53
  often
• 35:54
  confounded
• 35:55
  by
• 35:55
  George
• 35:55
  because
• 35:56
  he
• 35:56
  could
• 35:57
  hold
• 35:57
  things
• 35:58
  with
• 35:58
  a
• 35:58
  great
• 35:59
  deal
• 35:59
  of
• 35:59
  complexity
• 36:00
  and
• 36:01
  was
• 36:01
  completely
• 36:02
  comfortable
• 36:02
  with
• 36:02
  ambiguity.
• 36:03
  He
• 36:04
  didn't
• 36:04
  have
• 36:04
  to
• 36:04
  kind
• 36:04
  of
• 36:05
  like
• 36:05
  lock
• 36:05
  it
• 36:05
  all
• 36:05
  down.
• 36:07
  I
• 36:07
  have
• 36:07
  to
• 36:07
  say,
• 36:07
  guys,
• 36:08
  that
• 36:08
  one
• 36:08
  of
• 36:08
  the
• 36:09
  things
• 36:09
  that
• 36:09
  I'm
• 36:09
  particularly
• 36:10
  aware
• 36:11
  of
• 36:11
  is
• 36:11
  that
• 36:12
  with
• 36:13
  the
• 36:13
  amount
• 36:13
  of
• 36:13
  anxiety
• 36:14
  that's
• 36:15
  produced
• 36:15
  by
• 36:16
  our
• 36:16
  social,
• 36:17
  political
• 36:17
  and
• 36:17
  economic
• 36:18
  times,
• 36:19
  the
• 36:20
  massive
• 36:20
  amount
• 36:21
  of
• 36:21
  regression
• 36:22
  we're
• 36:22
  experiencing
• 36:23
  is
• 36:23
  not
• 36:24
  going
• 36:24
  to
• 36:24
  go
• 36:24
  away.
• 36:25
  And
• 36:26
  so
• 36:26
  how
• 36:26
  do
• 36:27
  we
• 36:27
  live
• 36:27
  in
• 36:28
  the
• 36:28
  face
• 36:28
  of
• 36:28
  that
• 36:29
  and
• 36:30
  in
• 36:30
  a
• 36:30
  sense
• 36:31
  really
• 36:31
  see
• 36:32
  the
• 36:32
  resources
• 36:33
  that
• 36:33
  come
• 36:33
  from
• 36:33
  our
• 36:33
  religions
• 36:34
  and
• 36:34
  spiritualities
• 36:35
  has
• 36:36
  resources
• 36:36
  to
• 36:36
  move
• 36:37
  through
• 36:37
  it
• 36:38
  and
• 36:38
  beyond
• 36:38
  it,
• 36:39
  not
• 36:40
  to
• 36:40
  be
• 36:40
  hooked
• 36:41
  by
• 36:41
  it.
• 36:42
  And
• 36:42
  one
• 36:42
  of
• 36:42
  the
• 36:42
  key
• 36:43
  things
• 36:43
  I
• 36:43
  think
• 36:43
  we
• 36:43
  have
• 36:44
  to
• 36:44
  negotiate
• 36:45
  in
• 36:45
  this
• 36:45
  process
• 36:45
  is
• 36:46
  the
• 36:46
  temptation
• 36:46
  of
• 36:47
  ideology.
• 36:47
  The
• 36:48
  current
• 36:48
  climate
• 36:49
  of
• 36:49
  polarization
• 36:50
  in
• 36:50
  the
• 36:50
  United
• 36:50
  States
• 36:51
  is
• 36:51
  a
• 36:51
  byproduct
• 36:52
  of
• 36:52
  people
• 36:52
  being
• 36:53
  hooked
• 36:54
  by
• 36:54
  this
• 36:54
  inability
• 36:55
  to
• 36:55
  think
• 36:55
  in
• 36:55
  both
• 36:55
  end
• 36:56
  terms,
• 36:56
  to
• 36:57
  hold
• 36:57
  a
• 36:58
  polarity
• 36:58
  in
• 36:59
  a
• 36:59
  generative
• 36:59
  way,
• 37:00
  to
• 37:00
  be
• 37:00
  able
• 37:00
  to
• 37:01
  discern
• 37:02
  what
• 37:02
  value
• 37:02
  can
• 37:03
  come
• 37:03
  from
• 37:03
  creating
• 37:04
  a
• 37:04
  kind
• 37:04
  of
• 37:04
  lively
• 37:05
  tension
• 37:06
  even
• 37:06
  between
• 37:07
  conservative
• 37:08
  and
• 37:08
  liberal
• 37:08
  or,
• 37:09
  you
• 37:09
  know,
• 37:09
  the
• 37:10
  ways
• 37:10
  that
• 37:10
  we
• 37:10
  think
• 37:10
  about
• 37:11
  science
• 37:12
  and
• 37:12
  faith.
• 37:13
  So
• 37:14
  I
• 37:14
  think
• 37:14
  it's
• 37:14
  a
• 37:15
  very
• 37:15
  interesting
• 37:15
  and
• 37:15
  precarious
• 37:16
  moment
• 37:17
  and
• 37:17
  it's
• 37:18
  why
• 37:18
  I'm
• 37:18
  hopeful
• 37:19
  that,
• 37:19
  you
• 37:19
  know,
• 37:20
  resources
• 37:20
  that
• 37:20
  come
• 37:21
  from
• 37:21
  people
• 37:21
  who
• 37:21
  are
• 37:22
  integrally
• 37:22
  minded
• 37:23
  but
• 37:24
  not
• 37:24
  alone,
• 37:25
  which
• 37:26
  support
• 37:27
  a
• 37:27
  kind
• 37:27
  of
• 37:28
  both
• 37:28
  and
• 37:28
  way
• 37:28
  of
• 37:29
  being
• 37:29
  in
• 37:29
  relationship
• 37:29
  to
• 37:30
  reality
• 37:30
  that
• 37:30
  this,
• 37:31
  this
• 37:31
  is
• 37:31
  a
• 37:31
  critical
• 37:32
  contribution
• 37:32
  during
• 37:33
  these.
• 37:34
  Father
• 37:34
  David,
• 37:35
  can
• 37:35
  you
• 37:35
  tell
• 37:35
  us
• 37:35
  your
• 37:35
  program
• 37:36
  is
• 37:36
  called
• 37:36
  Discernment
• 37:37
  Leadership
• 37:38
  Program?
• 37:38
  I
• 37:38
  believe.
• 37:39
  Discerning
• 37:39
  leadership.
• 37:40
  Discerning
• 37:40
  leadership.
• 37:42
  I
• 37:42
  mean,
• 37:42
  discernment.
• 37:43
  If
• 37:43
  you
• 37:43
  could
• 37:44
  kind
• 37:44
  of
• 37:44
  unpack
• 37:44
  that.
• 37:44
  I
• 37:45
  think
• 37:45
  it's
• 37:45
  one
• 37:45
  of
• 37:45
  the
• 37:46
  gifts
• 37:46
  of
• 37:46
  the
• 37:46
  spirit
• 37:46
  that
• 37:47
  Paul
• 37:47
  mentions
• 37:48
  someplace.
• 37:49
  It's
• 37:49
  discernment.
• 37:50
  And
• 37:50
  so
• 37:51
  it's
• 37:51
  there.
• 37:52
  And
• 37:52
  my
• 37:53
  hit
• 37:53
  on
• 37:53
  it,
• 37:53
  it's
• 37:54
  kind
• 37:54
  of
• 37:54
  being
• 37:54
  able
• 37:55
  to
• 37:55
  see
• 37:56
  right
• 37:56
  from
• 37:56
  wrong
• 37:57
  and
• 37:57
  seeing
• 37:57
  these
• 37:57
  complex
• 37:58
  situations
• 37:59
  and.
• 37:59
  And
• 37:59
  see
• 38:00
  the
• 38:00
  wisdom
• 38:00
  or
• 38:01
  see
• 38:01
  something
• 38:02
  bigger.
• 38:02
  And
• 38:03
  I
• 38:03
  have
• 38:03
  a
• 38:03
  pretty
• 38:04
  good
• 38:04
  gut
• 38:04
  for
• 38:05
  just
• 38:05
  not
• 38:06
  always.
• 38:06
  Doesn't
• 38:06
  work
• 38:06
  always,
• 38:06
  but
• 38:07
  it's
• 38:07
  pretty
• 38:07
  good.
• 38:08
  And
• 38:08
  since
• 38:08
  I
• 38:09
  was
• 38:09
  in
• 38:09
  a
• 38:09
  cult,
• 38:09
  I
• 38:09
  said
• 38:10
  I
• 38:10
  had
• 38:10
  cult
• 38:10
  dar.
• 38:11
  If
• 38:11
  somebody's
• 38:12
  being
• 38:12
  insincere
• 38:12
  and
• 38:12
  trying
• 38:13
  to
• 38:13
  manipulate
• 38:13
  with
• 38:13
  all
• 38:14
  this,
• 38:14
  it's
• 38:14
  like
• 38:14
  I
• 38:15
  pretty
• 38:15
  well
• 38:15
  get
• 38:15
  it.
• 38:16
  And
• 38:16
  yeah,
• 38:17
  so
• 38:17
  I
• 38:18
  was
• 38:18
  listening
• 38:18
  to
• 38:18
  you
• 38:19
  talk
• 38:19
  on
• 38:20
  YouTube
• 38:21
  and
• 38:21
  you
• 38:21
  mentioned
• 38:22
  discernment
• 38:22
  a
• 38:22
  lot.
• 38:22
  But
• 38:23
  what
• 38:23
  are
• 38:23
  we
• 38:23
  talking
• 38:24
  about?
• 38:26
  So,
• 38:27
  you
• 38:27
  know,
• 38:27
  the.
• 38:28
  The
• 38:28
  original
• 38:29
  Greek
• 38:30
  goes
• 38:30
  back
• 38:31
  to
• 38:31
  this
• 38:31
  word
• 38:31
  phronesis,
• 38:32
  you
• 38:33
  know,
• 38:33
  this
• 38:33
  prudential
• 38:33
  judgment.
• 38:35
  But
• 38:35
  in
• 38:36
  religious
• 38:37
  and
• 38:37
  spiritual
• 38:37
  terms,
• 38:38
  the
• 38:38
  capacity
• 38:39
  to
• 38:39
  exercise
• 38:40
  this
• 38:40
  good
• 38:40
  judgment.
• 38:41
  Good
• 38:42
  judgment,
• 38:43
  which
• 38:43
  is
• 38:43
  actually,
• 38:44
  as
• 38:44
  you
• 38:44
  were
• 38:45
  saying,
• 38:45
  it's
• 38:46
  actually
• 38:46
  holding
• 38:46
  complexity.
• 38:48
  So
• 38:48
  it's
• 38:49
  to
• 38:49
  sift
• 38:49
  through
• 38:50
  the
• 38:51
  complexity,
• 38:51
  to
• 38:51
  discern
• 38:52
  basically,
• 38:53
  to
• 38:53
  kind
• 38:53
  of
• 38:53
  like
• 38:53
  see
• 38:54
  the
• 38:54
  different
• 38:54
  layers
• 38:54
  and
• 38:55
  dimensions,
• 38:56
  but
• 38:56
  then
• 38:57
  also
• 38:57
  hold
• 38:58
  it
• 38:58
  as
• 38:58
  a
• 38:58
  whole
• 38:58
  and
• 38:59
  to
• 38:59
  make
• 38:59
  a
• 38:59
  decision
• 39:00
  that
• 39:01
  sorts
• 39:01
  through
• 39:01
  that
• 39:01
  complexity
• 39:02
  and
• 39:02
  gets
• 39:03
  to
• 39:03
  the.
• 39:03
  Other
• 39:03
  side
• 39:04
  so
• 39:04
  we
• 39:04
  can
• 39:04
  act
• 39:05
  in.
• 39:05
  An
• 39:05
  appropriate
• 39:05
  way,
• 39:06
  not
• 39:07
  just
• 39:07
  even
• 39:08
  from
• 39:08
  a
• 39:08
  spiritual
• 39:09
  view,
• 39:09
  not
• 39:09
  just
• 39:10
  appropriate,
• 39:11
  which
• 39:11
  is
• 39:12
  wise,
• 39:12
  which
• 39:13
  is
• 39:13
  effective,
• 39:13
  which
• 39:14
  is
• 39:14
  strategic,
• 39:15
  but
• 39:15
  also
• 39:15
  one
• 39:16
  which
• 39:16
  is
• 39:16
  somehow
• 39:17
  spirit
• 39:17
  led.
• 39:18
  So
• 39:19
  the
• 39:19
  notion
• 39:19
  of
• 39:20
  discerning
• 39:20
  leadership
• 39:21
  is
• 39:21
  to
• 39:21
  reintroduce
• 39:22
  the
• 39:22
  idea
• 39:23
  that
• 39:24
  when
• 39:24
  we're
• 39:24
  doing
• 39:25
  a
• 39:25
  strategic
• 39:25
  plan
• 39:26
  for
• 39:26
  our
• 39:26
  organization,
• 39:27
  we're
• 39:28
  not
• 39:28
  just
• 39:28
  taking
• 39:28
  into
• 39:28
  account
• 39:29
  all
• 39:29
  the
• 39:30
  facts
• 39:30
  and
• 39:30
  the
• 39:31
  figures,
• 39:31
  the
• 39:31
  quantitative.
• 39:32
  There's
• 39:33
  a
• 39:33
  qualitative
• 39:33
  dimension
• 39:34
  of
• 39:35
  mission,
• 39:35
  of
• 39:36
  charism,
• 39:36
  of
• 39:37
  spirit,
• 39:37
  of
• 39:38
  purpose,
• 39:39
  of
• 39:39
  a
• 39:39
  kind
• 39:39
  of
• 39:40
  ethical
• 39:40
  and
• 39:40
  moral
• 39:41
  intent.
• 39:42
  And
• 39:42
  not
• 39:42
  just
• 39:43
  that
• 39:44
  there's
• 39:44
  some
• 39:44
  living
• 39:45
  sort
• 39:46
  of
• 39:46
  commitment
• 39:46
  to
• 39:47
  advancing
• 39:48
  a
• 39:49
  greater
• 39:49
  good
• 39:50
  which
• 39:50
  is
• 39:50
  transcendent.
• 39:52
  So
• 39:52
  discernment
• 39:53
  can
• 39:53
  be
• 39:53
  exercised
• 39:54
  by
• 39:54
  individuals.
• 39:55
  You
• 39:55
  know,
• 39:56
  we
• 39:56
  discern
• 39:56
  basically
• 39:57
  a
• 39:57
  vocation.
• 39:58
  We
• 39:59
  discern
• 40:00
  big
• 40:00
  choices
• 40:00
  in
• 40:01
  our
• 40:01
  life,
• 40:01
  whether
• 40:01
  we're
• 40:02
  gonna
• 40:02
  move
• 40:02
  forward
• 40:02
  with
• 40:03
  this
• 40:03
  spouse
• 40:04
  or,
• 40:04
  you
• 40:05
  know,
• 40:05
  move
• 40:05
  on
• 40:05
  to
• 40:06
  a
• 40:06
  different,
• 40:06
  you
• 40:06
  know,
• 40:07
  sort
• 40:07
  of
• 40:07
  option.
• 40:08
  You
• 40:09
  know,
• 40:09
  there's
• 40:09
  a
• 40:09
  way
• 40:09
  that
• 40:09
  discernment
• 40:10
  is
• 40:10
  practiced
• 40:11
  by
• 40:11
  individuals.
• 40:12
  Daily.
• 40:13
  We're
• 40:13
  bringing
• 40:14
  our
• 40:14
  questions
• 40:15
  and
• 40:15
  our
• 40:15
  challenges
• 40:16
  to
• 40:16
  prayer
• 40:16
  and
• 40:17
  waiting
• 40:17
  and
• 40:17
  listening
• 40:18
  to
• 40:18
  what
• 40:19
  stirs
• 40:19
  for
• 40:19
  us.
• 40:21
  A
• 40:21
  certain
• 40:21
  decision
• 40:22
  might
• 40:22
  feel
• 40:23
  extremely
• 40:23
  murky
• 40:24
  and
• 40:24
  cloudy,
• 40:25
  but
• 40:26
  we
• 40:26
  know
• 40:26
  that
• 40:26
  with
• 40:26
  discernment,
• 40:27
  we
• 40:27
  patiently
• 40:28
  wait
• 40:28
  until
• 40:28
  things
• 40:29
  can
• 40:29
  get
• 40:29
  clarified.
• 40:31
  So
• 40:31
  it
• 40:31
  requires
• 40:32
  patience.
• 40:32
  It
• 40:33
  requires
• 40:33
  a
• 40:33
  kind
• 40:34
  of
• 40:34
  sensitivity
• 40:35
  to
• 40:35
  the
• 40:35
  inner
• 40:35
  states
• 40:36
  that
• 40:36
  we
• 40:37
  experience
• 40:37
  objectively.
• 40:39
  Discernment
• 40:40
  can
• 40:40
  also
• 40:40
  be
• 40:41
  practiced
• 40:41
  by
• 40:41
  groups.
• 40:42
  You
• 40:42
  mentioned
• 40:43
  the
• 40:43
  Quakers
• 40:44
  a
• 40:44
  little
• 40:44
  bit
• 40:44
  earlier.
• 40:45
  The
• 40:46
  Quakers
• 40:46
  have
• 40:46
  a
• 40:47
  long
• 40:47
  and
• 40:47
  beautiful
• 40:47
  tradition
• 40:48
  of
• 40:48
  this.
• 40:48
  This
• 40:49
  experience
• 40:49
  of
• 40:50
  communal
• 40:50
  discernment.
• 40:51
  The
• 40:52
  Jesuits
• 40:52
  and
• 40:52
  The
• 40:52
  Quakers
• 40:53
  are
• 40:53
  often
• 40:53
  compared
• 40:54
  for
• 40:54
  that
• 40:54
  reason,
• 40:55
  because
• 40:56
  this
• 40:56
  sensitivity
• 40:57
  to
• 40:57
  how
• 40:58
  the
• 40:58
  Spirit
• 40:58
  arises
• 40:59
  not
• 40:59
  just
• 40:59
  in
• 40:59
  the
• 40:59
  individual,
• 41:00
  but
• 41:00
  through
• 41:00
  groups
• 41:02
  and
• 41:02
  how
• 41:02
  a
• 41:02
  group
• 41:03
  can
• 41:03
  pay
• 41:03
  attention
• 41:04
  to
• 41:04
  the
• 41:04
  shape
• 41:04
  and
• 41:05
  the
• 41:05
  pattern
• 41:06
  of
• 41:06
  what's
• 41:06
  emerging
• 41:07
  through
• 41:07
  them
• 41:08
  in
• 41:08
  a
• 41:08
  way
• 41:09
  that
• 41:09
  also
• 41:09
  sheds
• 41:09
  light
• 41:10
  on
• 41:10
  choices
• 41:11
  we
• 41:11
  need
• 41:11
  to
• 41:11
  make
• 41:11
  corporately
• 41:12
  to
• 41:12
  what
• 41:13
  is
• 41:13
  that
• 41:13
  future
• 41:13
  we
• 41:13
  want
• 41:14
  to
• 41:14
  create
• 41:14
  together.
• 41:15
  We
• 41:15
  discern
• 41:16
  that
• 41:16
  together.
• 41:17
  So
• 41:17
  it's
• 41:17
  a
• 41:17
  practice.
• 41:19
  But
• 41:19
  I
• 41:19
  would
• 41:19
  say,
• 41:20
  while
• 41:20
  many
• 41:20
  people
• 41:21
  reduce
• 41:21
  discernment
• 41:22
  to
• 41:22
  decision
• 41:22
  making,
• 41:23
  I
• 41:23
  would
• 41:23
  say
• 41:24
  it's
• 41:24
  a
• 41:24
  habitus
• 41:25
  in
• 41:25
  that
• 41:25
  kind
• 41:25
  of
• 41:26
  classic
• 41:26
  sense.
• 41:27
  It's
• 41:27
  a
• 41:27
  way
• 41:27
  of
• 41:27
  being.
• 41:28
  It's
• 41:29
  a
• 41:29
  way
• 41:29
  of
• 41:29
  knowing
• 41:29
  and
• 41:30
  making
• 41:30
  sense
• 41:30
  of
• 41:30
  reality,
• 41:32
  bringing
• 41:32
  this
• 41:33
  deeper
• 41:33
  subjectivity
• 41:34
  into
• 41:34
  play.
• 41:35
  I
• 41:35
  think,
• 41:35
  Roger,
• 41:36
  you
• 41:36
  know,
• 41:36
  your
• 41:36
  karmic
• 41:37
  yoga
• 41:38
  basically
• 41:38
  is
• 41:39
  really
• 41:39
  kind
• 41:39
  of
• 41:39
  a
• 41:39
  practice
• 41:40
  of
• 41:40
  this
• 41:40
  in
• 41:40
  many
• 41:41
  ways.
• 41:41
  And
• 41:42
  then
• 41:42
  it's
• 41:43
  also
• 41:43
  a
• 41:43
  question
• 41:44
  of
• 41:44
  action,
• 41:45
  doing
• 41:46
  and
• 41:46
  relating.
• 41:47
  Because
• 41:48
  when
• 41:48
  we're
• 41:49
  in
• 41:49
  discernment
• 41:50
  in
• 41:50
  our
• 41:50
  relationships,
• 41:51
  we're
• 41:52
  paying
• 41:52
  attention
• 41:52
  to,
• 41:53
  well,
• 41:53
  how
• 41:53
  is
• 41:53
  the
• 41:54
  Spirit
• 41:54
  moving
• 41:54
  amongst
• 41:55
  us,
• 41:55
  between
• 41:56
  us,
• 41:56
  right.
• 41:57
  What
• 41:57
  are
• 41:57
  we
• 41:57
  sensing
• 41:58
  right
• 41:58
  now,
• 41:59
  which
• 41:59
  is
• 41:59
  giving
• 42:00
  us
• 42:00
  consolation?
• 42:01
  Ignatius
• 42:02
  discerned
• 42:03
  the
• 42:03
  difference
• 42:04
  between
• 42:04
  what
• 42:04
  he
• 42:04
  called
• 42:05
  consolation,
• 42:05
  which
• 42:06
  is
• 42:06
  experiences
• 42:07
  of
• 42:07
  faith,
• 42:08
  hope,
• 42:08
  love,
• 42:09
  the
• 42:09
  energy
• 42:10
  to
• 42:10
  do
• 42:10
  good,
• 42:11
  or
• 42:12
  desolation,
• 42:13
  you
• 42:13
  know,
• 42:13
  which
• 42:14
  is
• 42:14
  a
• 42:14
  decline
• 42:15
  and
• 42:15
  a
• 42:15
  kind
• 42:15
  of
• 42:16
  loss
• 42:16
  of
• 42:16
  faith,
• 42:16
  hope
• 42:17
  and
• 42:17
  love.
• 42:18
  And
• 42:18
  it's
• 42:18
  a
• 42:18
  loss
• 42:18
  of
• 42:19
  the
• 42:19
  energy
• 42:19
  to
• 42:19
  go
• 42:20
  forward
• 42:20
  and
• 42:20
  do
• 42:20
  good.
• 42:21
  So
• 42:22
  it's
• 42:23
  a
• 42:23
  kind
• 42:23
  of
• 42:23
  a
• 42:23
  nutshell.
• 42:25
  Beautiful,
• 42:25
  thank
• 42:26
  you.
• 42:26
  Well
• 42:26
  said.
• 42:28
  And
• 42:28
  you
• 42:28
  pointed
• 42:28
  to
• 42:29
  the
• 42:30
  crucial
• 42:30
  element
• 42:31
  of
• 42:32
  turning
• 42:32
  inward,
• 42:33
  or
• 42:34
  for
• 42:35
  guidance
• 42:35
  in
• 42:36
  the
• 42:36
  Christian
• 42:37
  tradition,
• 42:38
  perhaps
• 42:38
  the
• 42:38
  voice
• 42:39
  of
• 42:39
  the
• 42:39
  Holy
• 42:39
  Spirit.
• 42:41
  And
• 42:41
  this
• 42:42
  takes
• 42:42
  us
• 42:42
  into
• 42:44
  the
• 42:44
  topic
• 42:45
  of
• 42:45
  contemplation
• 42:46
  on
• 42:47
  the
• 42:47
  contemplative
• 42:48
  side
• 42:48
  of
• 42:48
  the
• 42:48
  church
• 42:50
  and
• 42:50
  the
• 42:50
  fact
• 42:51
  that
• 42:51
  there
• 42:51
  seems
• 42:51
  to
• 42:52
  be
• 42:52
  both
• 42:52
  a
• 42:52
  revival
• 42:53
  of
• 42:54
  the
• 42:54
  contemplative
• 42:55
  dimensions
• 42:55
  of
• 42:55
  the
• 42:55
  church,
• 42:56
  or
• 42:56
  maybe
• 42:56
  a.
• 42:57
  Is
• 42:57
  it
• 42:57
  a
• 42:57
  coming
• 42:57
  into
• 42:58
  public
• 42:59
  knowledge?
• 42:59
  Because
• 43:00
  it
• 43:00
  seemed
• 43:00
  like
• 43:00
  this
• 43:01
  was
• 43:01
  more
• 43:01
  esoteric
• 43:02
  in
• 43:02
  the
• 43:02
  past.
• 43:03
  Stay
• 43:04
  tuned
• 43:04
  for
• 43:04
  part
• 43:05
  two
• 43:05
  of
• 43:05
  our
• 43:05
  conversation
• 43:06
  with
• 43:06
  Father
• 43:07
  David
• 43:07
  McCallum
• 43:08
  of
• 43:08
  the
• 43:08
  Society
• 43:09
  of
• 43:09
  Jesus.
• 43:10
  In
• 43:10
  part
• 43:10
  two
• 43:10
  of
• 43:11
  our
• 43:11
  conversation
• 43:11
  with
• 43:12
  this
• 43:12
  good
• 43:12
  and
• 43:12
  wise
• 43:13
  priest,
• 43:13
  we
• 43:14
  continue
• 43:14
  the
• 43:14
  conversation
• 43:15
  to
• 43:15
  explore
• 43:16
  the
• 43:16
  necessity
• 43:17
  of
• 43:17
  the
• 43:17
  gift
• 43:17
  of
• 43:17
  discernment
• 43:18
  in
• 43:18
  what
• 43:18
  has
• 43:18
  been
• 43:19
  called
• 43:19
  the
• 43:19
  post
• 43:19
  truth
• 43:20
  era
• 43:20
  in
• 43:21
  which
• 43:21
  we
• 43:21
  find
• 43:21
  ourselves
• 43:22
  and
• 43:22
  where
• 43:22
  we
• 43:23
  go
• 43:23
  from
• 43:23
  here.
• 43:24
  Thank
• 43:24
  you
• 43:25
  very
• 43:25
  much
• 43:25
  for
• 43:25
  being
• 43:26
  a
• 43:26
  part
• 43:26
  of
• 43:26
  this
• 43:26
  conversation.
• 43:27
  We
• 43:27
  hope
• 43:28
  that
• 43:28
  you
• 43:28
  were
• 43:28
  moved,
• 43:29
  as
• 43:29
  we
• 43:29
  are
• 43:29
  moved,
• 43:30
  being
• 43:30
  part
• 43:30
  of
• 43:30
  it
• 43:31
  ourselves.
• 43:31
  We'd
• 43:32
  also
• 43:32
  like
• 43:32
  to
• 43:32
  say
• 43:33
  that
• 43:33
  this.
• 43:33
  Is
• 43:33
  being
• 43:34
  funded
• 43:34
  by
• 43:34
  Roger
• 43:35
  and
• 43:35
  myself.
• 43:35
  It
• 43:35
  comes
• 43:36
  out
• 43:36
  of
• 43:36
  our
• 43:36
  pockets.
• 43:36
  So
• 43:37
  if
• 43:37
  you
• 43:37
  would
• 43:37
  like
• 43:37
  to
• 43:37
  help
• 43:38
  us
• 43:38
  to.
• 43:39
  Mainly
• 43:39
  to
• 43:39
  get
• 43:39
  this
• 43:40
  podcast
• 43:40
  out
• 43:40
  to
• 43:41
  more
• 43:41
  people,
• 43:41
  because
• 43:41
  the
• 43:42
  bigger
• 43:42
  audience
• 43:42
  have.
• 43:42
  Which
• 43:43
  is
• 43:43
  steadily
• 43:43
  growing,
• 43:43
  but
• 43:44
  the
• 43:44
  more
• 43:44
  people
• 43:44
  we
• 43:45
  can
• 43:45
  reach
• 43:45
  and
• 43:45
  the
• 43:45
  more
• 43:45
  marketing
• 43:46
  we
• 43:46
  can
• 43:46
  do,
• 43:46
  the
• 43:47
  more
• 43:47
  positive
• 43:48
  effect
• 43:48
  we
• 43:48
  can
• 43:48
  have
• 43:48
  on
• 43:49
  the
• 43:49
  world.
• 43:49
  So
• 43:49
  we've
• 43:50
  done
• 43:50
  a
• 43:50
  couple
• 43:50
  of
• 43:50
  ways,
• 43:50
  but
• 43:51
  we'd
• 43:51
  like
• 43:51
  you
• 43:51
  to
• 43:51
  buy
• 43:52
  us
• 43:52
  a
• 43:52
  cup
• 43:52
  of
• 43:52
  coffee.
• 43:53
  Very
• 43:53
  simple.
• 43:53
  And
• 43:54
  I
• 43:54
  do
• 43:54
  that
• 43:54
  with
• 43:54
  podcasts
• 43:55
  that
• 43:55
  I
• 43:56
  support,
• 43:56
  and
• 43:57
  I
• 43:57
  find
• 43:57
  it's
• 43:57
  very
• 43:58
  satisfying.
• 43:58
  So
• 43:59
  thank
• 43:59
  you
• 43:59
  for
• 43:59
  your
• 43:59
  help,
• 44:00
  thank
• 44:00
  you
• 44:00
  for
• 44:00
  your
• 44:00
  presence,
• 44:01
  and
• 44:01
  thank
• 44:01
  you
• 44:01
  for
• 44:02
  all
• 44:02
  you
• 44:02
  are
• 44:02
  and
• 44:03
  all
• 44:03
  you
• 44:03
  do.
• 44:03
  We
• 44:03
  love
• 44:04
  you.
• 44:13
  Sam.