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Mistakes Happen with Dr. Jim Orsini · My Veterinary Life

0:09
Speaker 1: Welcome to this week's episode of the My Veterinary Life Podcast.
0:13
Speaker 1: I'm your host, doctor Annie Chavant, and my pronouns are
0:16
Speaker 1: she Her, and we are continuing in our series Mistakes Happen,
0:19
Speaker 1: where we're talking with brave colleagues about the parts of
0:22
Speaker 1: their career stories no one likes to talk about. It
0:25
Speaker 1: is my hope that this series empowers you to share
0:27
Speaker 1: more openly about your own mistakes, both for your benefit
0:30
Speaker 1: and for the benefit of those around you, and give
0:33
Speaker 1: you some ideas on how to approach future mistakes differently
0:36
Speaker 1: based on the stories you hear. Our guest today is
0:39
Speaker 1: doctor Jim Orsini, an Associate Professor of Surgery at the
0:42
Speaker 1: University of Pennsylvania and co editor of equin Emergencies and
0:46
Speaker 1: Comparative Veterinary Anatomy, a clinical Approach. We are honored to
0:50
Speaker 1: have doctor Orsini join us for this series. Before we
0:53
Speaker 1: jump in, I do want to remind everyone that the
0:55
Speaker 1: My Veterinary Life Podcast is brought to you by Care Credit.
0:58
Speaker 1: For more than thirty two year, care Credit has partnered
1:01
Speaker 1: with the veterinary profession, helping pets get the care they
1:04
Speaker 1: need in every moment that matters. Flexible financing with the
1:08
Speaker 1: Care Credit Health and Pet Care Credit Card, let's pet
1:11
Speaker 1: owners spread out the costs and budget friendly monthly payments
1:15
Speaker 1: the first time and for a lifetime. Being financially prepared
1:18
Speaker 1: for whatever life brings gives everyone peace of mind. And
1:22
Speaker 1: with that, welcome to the show, Doctor Orsini.
1:24
Speaker 2: Oh doctor Chamant. It's a pleasure to be here. Thank
1:27
Speaker 2: you for the invitations to share.
1:29
Speaker 3: Thank you so so much for coming on the show.
1:32
Speaker 1: And I'm really looking forward to the wisdom and advice
1:34
Speaker 1: you can share through your experience. So let's start by
1:38
Speaker 1: telling our listeners just a little bit about yourself before
1:41
Speaker 1: we dive in. Can you share what your current role
1:43
Speaker 1: looks like and a little bit about how you got here?
1:46
Speaker 2: Sure, I've been in academia ever since I graduated from Cornell.
1:52
Speaker 2: It's interesting that when I first started in veterary medicine
1:55
Speaker 2: and at our school, I figured that I just wanted
1:58
Speaker 2: to be out graduate and be out in practice, and
2:02
Speaker 2: I felt that being a primary care veterinarian was really
2:07
Speaker 2: all I needed to do. And then as I advanced
2:10
Speaker 2: through the curriculum at Cornell, it became clearer that I
2:13
Speaker 2: felt I needed more training than what we had gotten
2:17
Speaker 2: four years, and so I figured an internship would probably
2:20
Speaker 2: round out the complete the circle. So I applied for
2:23
Speaker 2: internship and came to New Bolton Center. And during my
2:27
Speaker 2: internship it became even clearer that if I wanted to
2:30
Speaker 2: specialize in which I decided, I think surgery was something
2:33
Speaker 2: that really intrigued me. I thought it had both problem
2:37
Speaker 2: solving but also the opportunity to do something good. And
2:39
Speaker 2: so I applied for surgery residency and was accepted and
2:43
Speaker 2: stayed at ten for that as well, and then after
2:46
Speaker 2: that fellowship lectureship for another two years. So I invested
2:50
Speaker 2: five years in training as a surgeon, which I think
2:53
Speaker 2: to me just sort of fulfilled my idea that academy
2:57
Speaker 2: is really where I wanted to be. And so I've
2:59
Speaker 2: been the faculty for more than forty years now and
3:03
Speaker 2: surgery that's where I am. I'm still here and still
3:06
Speaker 2: enjoying what I'm doing.
3:08
Speaker 1: I love that it was important to me to have
3:11
Speaker 1: some equine representation in this series, and also I'm really
3:15
Speaker 1: glad that you can represent the academic perspective as well,
3:19
Speaker 1: because not only are you thinking about your own professional
3:23
Speaker 1: development on a regular basis, but you are interacting directly
3:27
Speaker 1: with folks at various stages of their learning process and
3:31
Speaker 1: observing mistakes and managing other folks as they navigate their mistakes.
3:35
Speaker 1: And so I just think it's a really really great
3:37
Speaker 1: perspective to have and to be able to share. So
3:41
Speaker 1: that brings us to the question of the week. Could
3:45
Speaker 1: you tell us about a time when you made a mistake?
3:48
Speaker 2: Sure? I think one of the ones was a judgment
3:51
Speaker 2: mistake in that I had a Freezian, which I knew
3:55
Speaker 2: historically have many problems, and it was a Freisian stallion
4:00
Speaker 2: coming in for removal and retain tessel of crypt orchid.
4:04
Speaker 2: The short story is that this client felt that this
4:07
Speaker 2: horse being on its back for the surgery was really
4:10
Speaker 2: going to be hard on the horse. And even though
4:13
Speaker 2: I know that for a crypt orchid that doing it
4:16
Speaker 2: in latter recumbency when they're on their side is going
4:19
Speaker 2: to be extremely difficult. Instead of trying to educate and
4:23
Speaker 2: make the client understand that the difficulty, I sort of
4:28
Speaker 2: acquiesced and did it on its side. And of course
4:31
Speaker 2: the testicle was in fact in the abdomen. At that time,
4:34
Speaker 2: I was younger in my career and we didn't have
4:37
Speaker 2: laparoscopic procedures at that point in time, so it ended
4:41
Speaker 2: up happened to be an open procedure in order to
4:43
Speaker 2: find the testicle. And of course when it's a lot
4:46
Speaker 2: of recumbency, the ability to actually close the ring surgically
4:50
Speaker 2: is even harder. And certainly one of the things that
4:54
Speaker 2: we always worry about is whether they can eviscerate or
4:58
Speaker 2: actually have a bowel that actually comes through the work.
5:01
Speaker 2: So I had all the thought processes in place, but
5:05
Speaker 2: I still went ahead and did it in lottery compancy.
5:08
Speaker 2: I packed the area as another precaution. The other testicle
5:12
Speaker 2: was descended, so that was that was not a problem,
5:15
Speaker 2: and then horse recovered fine. And then the following day
5:19
Speaker 2: or two days later, it was time to pull the packing.
5:22
Speaker 2: And so as soon as I pulled the packing, what
5:24
Speaker 2: do you think followed was in tested and of course
5:28
Speaker 2: all my concerns, all my worries that I had thought about,
5:32
Speaker 2: came to couition here, which was also that and so
5:35
Speaker 2: of course you know, you have to be able to
5:37
Speaker 2: respond quickly, and so you know, the house officer at
5:40
Speaker 2: the time ran to get some additional packing, because at
5:43
Speaker 2: this point I had to call the owner and tell
5:45
Speaker 2: her that in fact, this horse needed to go back
5:48
Speaker 2: on the table again and that we needed to put
5:50
Speaker 2: it on its back in order to do that. And
5:52
Speaker 2: so it taught me a lot of things. One is
5:55
Speaker 2: that if you know the potential problems, and you always
5:58
Speaker 2: want to try to reduce that buttential for those issues
6:01
Speaker 2: to occur. And so instead of taking the time I
6:04
Speaker 2: think in communicating how high the risk was in placing
6:09
Speaker 2: a lateral versus dorsal recumbency, I in fact decided to
6:14
Speaker 2: keep everybody happy, and in fact it ended up being
6:18
Speaker 2: horsted fine in the end. But it certainly reinforced to
6:21
Speaker 2: me the importance of really good communication and really thinking
6:25
Speaker 2: it through and explaining in detail what potential problems can happen,
6:30
Speaker 2: and doing what you know is correct and right, and
6:34
Speaker 2: not doing something to keep somebody happy for that particular
6:38
Speaker 2: moment in time. So that was one mistakes that probably
6:42
Speaker 2: many that I have witnessed and done and been part
6:45
Speaker 2: of unfortunately throughout my career.
6:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is a really valuable example for many reasons,
6:53
Speaker 1: and I do want to take a moment and break
6:56
Speaker 1: it down and go back through that with you. And
6:58
Speaker 1: the first layer that I'd like to unpack is how
7:01
Speaker 1: you were feeling through that experience. And I even want
7:04
Speaker 1: to go earlier than the mistake, because I think it's
7:09
Speaker 1: important to emphasize that you had that running list of
7:14
Speaker 1: risks in your mind but still elected to move forward
7:17
Speaker 1: with the lateral because you wanted positive client satisfaction, positive
7:23
Speaker 1: client outcomes. And as you said that, to me, that's
7:26
Speaker 1: such a relatable internal struggle. So maybe starting there kind
7:30
Speaker 1: of how are you feeling and making that decision, and
7:32
Speaker 1: then how did you feel the moment you remove that
7:36
Speaker 1: packing as well.
7:37
Speaker 2: Yeah, so of course I was after the surgery. For surgery,
7:42
Speaker 2: I was quite anxious just thinking about what the possibilities
7:46
Speaker 2: were and of course thinking about what I needed to do.
7:50
Speaker 2: And I think one of the other things that I
7:52
Speaker 2: probably should have done in preparation, especially when I pulled
7:56
Speaker 2: the packing, is to have packing there as a follow up,
7:59
Speaker 2: and I did, and that was the other thing. And
8:01
Speaker 2: so certainly from house officers standpoint, it was a great
8:06
Speaker 2: educational opportunity to learn about that and so being prepared,
8:11
Speaker 2: and I think you can be over prepared, and that's
8:13
Speaker 2: always better than underprepared, as we as we all have witness,
8:17
Speaker 2: and so certainly from that time of the surgery, horse
8:22
Speaker 2: stood up. Of course, that was a great relief that
8:24
Speaker 2: everything still was intact. But I didn't sleep well that
8:27
Speaker 2: night because I was thinking about the fact that even
8:30
Speaker 2: though we've made it through the recovery phase, we still
8:34
Speaker 2: had to remove the packing, and that the possibility of
8:37
Speaker 2: some herniation and even a visceration, I think, was still real.
8:42
Speaker 2: So that was something that, you know, I had to endure.
8:45
Speaker 2: I guess you'd probably say for twenty four to forty
8:48
Speaker 2: eight hours, you know, doing that, and then of course
8:51
Speaker 2: when the worst of your dreams happens, and that is
8:54
Speaker 2: the bowel greeting you when you take out the packing
8:58
Speaker 2: and you're there holding the bow and trying to keep
9:00
Speaker 2: a horse that's standing still so that in fact you
9:04
Speaker 2: can get it to the induction stall and then back
9:07
Speaker 2: on the table without more injury to the intestine itself.
9:11
Speaker 2: So I felt terrible about it. I was very anxious,
9:15
Speaker 2: and I think at that even that I felt for
9:18
Speaker 2: many days and for many weeks that I felt that
9:21
Speaker 2: I hadn't used the best judgment, you know, And I
9:24
Speaker 2: think that it just reinforced the fact that when you
9:27
Speaker 2: think about things and you have these these thoughts of
9:30
Speaker 2: problems that you really need to act on them and
9:33
Speaker 2: not sort of push them aside and hope for the best,
9:36
Speaker 2: you know. So yes, I think, and I still obviously
9:40
Speaker 2: I still think about the case. And when you brought
9:42
Speaker 2: up the topic, you know, that was one of the
9:45
Speaker 2: ones that came to the surface. I have others as well,
9:48
Speaker 2: not just one of several that I can mention easily.
9:52
Speaker 2: But I think it isn't just something that happens you
9:55
Speaker 2: take care of. It's the impact that has on you
9:58
Speaker 2: going forward, you know. And it actually takes you as
10:01
Speaker 2: a surgeon, because you know, surgeon like to think themselves
10:04
Speaker 2: as we never make a mistake, you know, and I
10:07
Speaker 2: think that's part of our character. But of course we
10:11
Speaker 2: know that we're human and that what you hope more
10:14
Speaker 2: than anything else action your bond, is that we continue
10:18
Speaker 2: to improve and that what we did is a teaching
10:21
Speaker 2: to someone else as well too, so that they don't
10:24
Speaker 2: do the same thing. It's like doing the same thing
10:27
Speaker 2: over and over again and expecting a different outcome. I mean,
10:30
Speaker 2: how silly can we be? You know? I think we
10:32
Speaker 2: need to understand that you need to adjust your plan
10:36
Speaker 2: and your execution differently next time.
10:40
Speaker 3: No that makes perfect sense.
10:41
Speaker 1: And if you're already thinking about different things that can happen,
10:44
Speaker 1: then what actions are you going to take base on
10:47
Speaker 1: those thoughts or what can you control? You cannot control
10:51
Speaker 1: every aspect of the outcome, but what are the pieces
10:52
Speaker 1: that you can control? And like the point about having
10:55
Speaker 1: the caause nearby, that's definitely lesson learned and in everybody
10:59
Speaker 1: around at that moment can learn that lesson together and
11:02
Speaker 1: then move forward.
11:04
Speaker 3: Now, I think that.
11:05
Speaker 1: Process of debriefing and thinking about how you can overprepare
11:09
Speaker 1: next time is part of the way that we cope
11:12
Speaker 1: with the mistakes, and you know, making sure that that
11:15
Speaker 1: same mistake is not happening again is part of that
11:18
Speaker 1: kind of healing process. But if I may ask what
11:22
Speaker 1: other aspects of the coping process, what were they like
11:26
Speaker 1: for you? Or did you do anything specific at the
11:28
Speaker 1: time to manage those sort of immediate days two weeks afterwards?
11:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think one of the things I did is
11:35
Speaker 2: I met with the house officers and the students and
11:38
Speaker 2: actually did or did a deep briefing. And I think,
11:40
Speaker 2: you know, recognizing and emitting the mistake I think is
11:44
Speaker 2: number one. You know, I think some try to Opsusekate.
11:48
Speaker 2: You know, they try to think about ways that they
11:51
Speaker 2: can sort of do out what really happened, you know,
11:53
Speaker 2: instead of really taking taking charge of what happened and
11:58
Speaker 2: recognize again. So I think that's number one. I think
12:02
Speaker 2: is don't try to put off really what happened, but
12:05
Speaker 2: actually face it. And I think that is the most
12:07
Speaker 2: important thing, because if you sort of tried to rationalize
12:12
Speaker 2: what happened rather than actually recognize what happened, I think
12:16
Speaker 2: that there's a greater chance of a problem like that
12:19
Speaker 2: reoccurring at another time. And so that to me is
12:22
Speaker 2: number one. It's recognizing the problem, thinking about what you
12:26
Speaker 2: would have done differently, how you could have improved the
12:28
Speaker 2: situation even if it occurred again. And one of the
12:31
Speaker 2: things I think I could have done differently is too
12:34
Speaker 2: is that when I removed the packing, I should have
12:37
Speaker 2: had the horse in an induction stall, so in fact
12:40
Speaker 2: we were ready to anesthetize in a place on the table,
12:44
Speaker 2: rather than having can move it from one part of
12:47
Speaker 2: the hospital into induction stall and then onto the table,
12:50
Speaker 2: and even having anesthesia ready or prepared for the induction.
12:55
Speaker 2: So I think those are some of the things that
12:56
Speaker 2: I would have done differently as well. The thought that
13:01
Speaker 2: we could have a hrdiation or evisceration, I think was
13:04
Speaker 2: certainly real, But I think there are other steps I
13:07
Speaker 2: could have done that would have been even better and
13:10
Speaker 2: more efficient in actually addressing the problem. So recognizing the problem,
13:15
Speaker 2: understanding what the problem is, and I think communicating with
13:18
Speaker 2: the team how their role could be improved as well
13:22
Speaker 2: if they are providing some additional help. So that's the
13:26
Speaker 2: way I sort of approached that is, and most importantly
13:29
Speaker 2: is to admit the problem.
13:32
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm so glad that you mentioned that, because I
13:35
Speaker 1: agree that it is such an important component, but probably
13:38
Speaker 1: one of the most difficult as well, because it's hard
13:41
Speaker 1: to have that extreme ownership of the issue, is what
13:45
Speaker 1: I'll call it, and especially because it's rare that mistakes
13:48
Speaker 1: happen in isolation, if ever, right, there's lots of different
13:52
Speaker 1: factors at play here, which makes it easy to point
13:56
Speaker 1: the finger or try to place the blame elsewhere. And
13:59
Speaker 1: you know, we all have our own insecurities or egos
14:02
Speaker 1: that are at play, and that's some of the factor
14:04
Speaker 1: as well. And so the fact that you're able to
14:06
Speaker 1: kind of push all that aside in take ownership of
14:10
Speaker 1: the components of this particular situation that you can for
14:14
Speaker 1: the good of the patient and for the good of
14:15
Speaker 1: the team, and to have the presence of mind to
14:17
Speaker 1: be able to do that debrief shortly after, I think
14:20
Speaker 1: is something that we can can all take away and say,
14:23
Speaker 1: let's figure out what really happened and what can we
14:27
Speaker 1: do differently moving forward, And that's the way to make
14:30
Speaker 1: the best of that situation. So yeah, I'm really glad
14:33
Speaker 1: that you chose to emphasize that point.
14:35
Speaker 2: And I think the term ownership, I think is really key.
14:37
Speaker 2: And I think that was really that kind of sums
14:40
Speaker 2: it up, doesn't it. And you know, there's an embarrassment
14:43
Speaker 2: because your ego, of course is hurt. No surgeon wants
14:47
Speaker 2: to have their ego in any way injured or damaged.
14:49
Speaker 2: But I think, you know, recognizing it and then the
14:52
Speaker 2: ownership part, I think is really critical to resolving any issue,
14:57
Speaker 2: you know, whether it's personal or professional.
15:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think that will likely lead into my
15:04
Speaker 1: next question, but how did this case impact the way
15:09
Speaker 1: that you practice even today, if at all?
15:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it to me is more the importance
15:16
Speaker 2: of everybody understanding what the process is and what the
15:20
Speaker 2: procedure is, but also outlining what the complications are so
15:24
Speaker 2: that everybody is really current and more importantly aware of
15:29
Speaker 2: what can happen, so that their role can be improved
15:32
Speaker 2: as far as actually being supportive. And so to me,
15:36
Speaker 2: what I learned is that in a case such as
15:39
Speaker 2: this is actually having the conversation ahead of time and
15:43
Speaker 2: not after and you know, if it works out and
15:46
Speaker 2: there aren't any problems, wonderful, that's that's what we all
15:49
Speaker 2: hope for. But in any if you think about any
15:52
Speaker 2: emergency procedure, whether it's firefighters, police, military, surgeon's hospital, is
16:00
Speaker 2: actually practicing and preparing. And I think that's the important
16:04
Speaker 2: part is actually about practicing whether it goes, whether it's
16:08
Speaker 2: in your mind right or physically practicing, I think are
16:12
Speaker 2: all all key to preventing something like that from happening again,
16:16
Speaker 2: and dealing with it when it does happen in a
16:19
Speaker 2: way that actually is patient, eccentric and actually has the
16:23
Speaker 2: best chance for an outcome, because you know, things could
16:26
Speaker 2: have really deteriorated to the point where we could have
16:29
Speaker 2: had to resect bowel. Course it's contaminated, so you could
16:33
Speaker 2: have pardonitis. There's so many other things that have could
16:36
Speaker 2: have been a sequela is a learning opportunity. And I
16:39
Speaker 2: think that's the other part of these these situations is actually,
16:43
Speaker 2: you know, what did everyone learn from this? And I
16:46
Speaker 2: think even from the owner's standpoint, I think they had
16:49
Speaker 2: a better understanding really of what I was trying to
16:53
Speaker 2: communicate initially, but obviously didn't do an adequate job and
16:57
Speaker 2: actually sort of listing the potential complications, you know, instead
17:01
Speaker 2: of just acquiescing to keep the client happy at that time,
17:05
Speaker 2: because that's what we all want to do. We want
17:07
Speaker 2: everyone to be happy, you know, as far as life
17:11
Speaker 2: and practice.
17:13
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I do want to push a little bit
17:16
Speaker 1: on that client communication piece as well, because I think
17:20
Speaker 1: it's so so important, And you hinted at the challenge
17:26
Speaker 1: that we face in wanting a positive outcome, wanting the
17:29
Speaker 1: client to be happy, but also wanting to communicate the risk.
17:33
Speaker 3: And I think there is a bit of an.
17:34
Speaker 1: Art to that communication of having the client be aware
17:39
Speaker 1: but not overwhelmed, prepared but not overly anxious. And I
17:44
Speaker 1: want to ask this question to you because you do
17:47
Speaker 1: see complicated cases in a tertiary oral facility, and you
17:51
Speaker 1: have the perspective of seeing multiple different levels of client communication.
17:55
Speaker 1: So what advice would you have for striking that balance
17:58
Speaker 1: in communication of preparing the client without creating unnecessary alarm.
18:04
Speaker 2: Right right, I think that we can over complicate the
18:08
Speaker 2: potential problems, but I think it's to make sure they
18:10
Speaker 2: understand in the language that is something that's simple, all right.
18:16
Speaker 2: I think sometimes we get into our professional language and
18:20
Speaker 2: we talk about used terms than in fact, they sort
18:23
Speaker 2: of say yes, but they probably don't really understand. So,
18:27
Speaker 2: you know, evisceration may seem pretty easy to you and
18:30
Speaker 2: I to understand, but for them, you know, it's basically
18:33
Speaker 2: the bowels falls out, you know, the intestine falls out.
18:36
Speaker 2: So that's the other part that I think I didn't
18:38
Speaker 2: really make clear in the terms I use, And so
18:42
Speaker 2: it also made me we think how I messaged owners
18:48
Speaker 2: and trainers on potentially because they never, no one ever
18:51
Speaker 2: wants to admit that they don't understand what you're saying, right,
18:54
Speaker 2: I mean, I think that's a normal human response, you know,
18:58
Speaker 2: and so they just shake their head, and we just
19:00
Speaker 2: thought to assume that. But I think sometimes we have
19:03
Speaker 2: to actually ask the question back, you know, and when
19:07
Speaker 2: I say evisceration, what does that mean to you, and
19:10
Speaker 2: I think that type of thing helps do So that
19:13
Speaker 2: was the other thing I learned early in the process
19:16
Speaker 2: is actually being able to communicate in terms that everybody
19:20
Speaker 2: could understand, not just a colleague and the profession.
19:25
Speaker 3: Oh, I'm so glad you were able to touch on
19:28
Speaker 3: that topic.
19:29
Speaker 1: And absolutely there can be an understanding gap between the
19:32
Speaker 1: client and the clinician, and the fact that there is
19:36
Speaker 1: almost universal hesitation to not want to admit that you
19:39
Speaker 1: don't understand, and so silence is not necessarily comprehension. And
19:44
Speaker 1: being intentional about those check ins as you go and
19:47
Speaker 1: making sure that it really is a team decision and
19:49
Speaker 1: that everybody is on the same page is so so important.
19:52
Speaker 1: So that's an amazing lesson, and I'm sure there are
19:56
Speaker 1: thousands more. But I'm going to ask, as our final
20:01
Speaker 1: question here today, if you could pick one piece of
20:06
Speaker 1: advice that you'd like to give to a recent graduate
20:09
Speaker 1: who is terrified of making their first big mistake out
20:14
Speaker 1: in practice.
20:15
Speaker 3: What would that be.
20:17
Speaker 2: I think it's not to be afraid to ask for help,
20:20
Speaker 2: all right, And I think that you know, we all
20:22
Speaker 2: like to think, because we have graduated and we have
20:25
Speaker 2: our degree, that we are no at all, and I
20:29
Speaker 2: think that we need to understand that the maturing process,
20:32
Speaker 2: the experience process, is an important part and it takes time.
20:36
Speaker 2: And I think that you know, especially in a environment
20:40
Speaker 2: where you have other colleagues who are sort of hovering
20:44
Speaker 2: and watching and mentors who are really looking to see
20:47
Speaker 2: whether you're making progressing appropriately, is that I think sometimes
20:52
Speaker 2: we are unwilling to recognize that we need help. And
20:56
Speaker 2: I don't think there's anything wrong with needy help. I
21:00
Speaker 2: think I would say that you are better off asking
21:03
Speaker 2: more often than not enough when you have something that
21:07
Speaker 2: you're unsure you know. And I think that's part of
21:10
Speaker 2: it is is when you have a question in your
21:13
Speaker 2: mind that you aren't clear on that that's an opportunity
21:17
Speaker 2: to start a conversation with a colleague and try to
21:20
Speaker 2: get a different perspective, because everyone looks at things a
21:22
Speaker 2: little bit differently sometimes than we do, don't we don't
21:25
Speaker 2: have We sort of get sometimes a tunnel vision on
21:28
Speaker 2: what we think, and we sort of forget about the
21:31
Speaker 2: things that someone else might be able to advise us
21:34
Speaker 2: on that actually makes good sense and can prevent problems.
21:38
Speaker 1: Oh, I really like that as the piece of advice
21:41
Speaker 1: to hang our hat on and I notice a connection
21:45
Speaker 1: there too, because if we are willing to be vulnerable
21:48
Speaker 1: about the things that we know and the things that
21:50
Speaker 1: we don't know, then that can invite a similar vulnerability
21:55
Speaker 1: in both our colleagues and our clients to say it's
21:58
Speaker 1: okay to not know, and let's have a conversation about it,
22:02
Speaker 1: let's get those different perspectives, and let's all move forward
22:06
Speaker 1: better for it.
22:07
Speaker 3: And so I think if you can be the.
22:09
Speaker 1: One that makes that first brave step to admit that
22:12
Speaker 1: you don't know and that you might need some help,
22:13
Speaker 1: it can end up with better outcomes for everybody and
22:16
Speaker 1: for items and actions in place that can help you
22:20
Speaker 1: be more prepared when a similar situation comes up the
22:23
Speaker 1: next time around.
22:24
Speaker 2: And we learned that, I think sometimes later in life instead,
22:27
Speaker 2: we're allier in life, And there's nothing wrong with asking
22:30
Speaker 2: a question and asking for help. And I think, you know,
22:33
Speaker 2: we always like to think we know everything, and that
22:37
Speaker 2: I think if we go forward with that, we're going
22:39
Speaker 2: to get ourselves into trouble. And as I said, is
22:42
Speaker 2: there's nothing wrong with admitting that you don't know something
22:45
Speaker 2: and that you need to find a resource, whether it
22:48
Speaker 2: be a book, or whether it be a colleague or
22:52
Speaker 2: something another avenue of learning. However, you learn best. But
22:56
Speaker 2: that's what you have to think about all the time.
22:59
Speaker 2: It's console improving, constantly thinking about how to make yourself
23:04
Speaker 2: better and those around you part of your success.
23:07
Speaker 3: Yeah.
23:08
Speaker 1: Yeah, And you said there's nothing wrong with not knowing,
23:12
Speaker 1: and I think I would add there's something really right
23:15
Speaker 1: about not knowing, right, because that's the first step to
23:20
Speaker 1: becoming better, to opening that textbook, to asking the colleague.
23:23
Speaker 1: If you never admit it, then you're never going to
23:26
Speaker 1: be motivated to make yourself better. And so I think
23:30
Speaker 1: that's a really important perspective shift that I hadn't really
23:33
Speaker 1: thought about in that way, and so I really appreciate
23:36
Speaker 1: you you bringing that to light and pushing us to
23:38
Speaker 1: be better clinicians, practitioners, and people. So thank you so
23:42
Speaker 1: much for your perspective today, Doctor Orsini. I really really
23:46
Speaker 1: appreciate you coming on sharing your story so bravely and
23:50
Speaker 1: helping us work through it and see what we can
23:53
Speaker 1: learn together.
23:54
Speaker 2: That's been my pleasure. Doctor Chavant, thank you for the opportunity.
23:58
Speaker 1: And thank you to each of you for joining us
24:00
Speaker 1: on this episode of My Veterinary Life Podcast. We love
24:03
Speaker 1: sharing this journey with you, and remember, we want to
24:05
Speaker 1: hear from you, so please be sure to leave us
24:06
Speaker 1: a rating and review on Apple Podcasts or whatever platform
24:09
Speaker 1: you listen to, and you can also email me at
24:12
Speaker 1: mvlpodcast at ABMA dot org.
24:15
Speaker 3: Take care and we'll see you next time.