Latest / Side Note... / The Lavender Man: From 23 Years of Pro Basketball to 25,000 Lavender Plants
Transcript
- Melissa: Welcome to Side Note with Melissa. I love hearing the stories behind the choices we make and the moments that stay with us. This season I'm bringing guests into the conversation to share their experiences, the connections they've made, and the stories that shape them. There may be a few tangents and side notes along the way, but sometimes those are the best parts. I'm glad you're here. Welcome to Side Note with Melissa. It looks like one of my little helpers over there is taking a nap. That's Rico. In this episode, I'm interviewing Joseph Downs. Joseph is a longtime lavender farmer from Washington State and also a member of the United States Lavender Growers Association, which is how I know him. But also known as the Lavender Man, Joseph Downes is an expert in culinary lavender. So as a lavender farmer myself and I grow some of the varieties that he grows, which are considered culinary, I really enjoyed this conversation. But I think even if you're not a lavender farmer, you'll be able to learn a few things in this episode. So I hope you enjoy it. Welcome to Side Note with Melissa. welcome to Side Note with Melissa. You are actually the first lavender farmer that I've had on my podcast. So Joseph: awesome! Melissa: Yeah, so I'm hoping to interview more lavender farmers, but my podcast is about other things besides lavender. So but you're the actual first lavender farmer, so thank you. But let me give a little bit of introduction about who you are and then we'll we'll get into it. so Joseph Downs, do you go by Joe Joseph: . Melissa: or Joseph? Joseph: Either one. Melissa: Okay. you're also known as the Lavender Man. and of course, a lot of us female farmers were all called the Lavender Lady, but you are called the Lavender Man. And are any of the other lavender farmers who are males, are they lavender? Did they go by the lavender man or is it just you? Joseph: Just me. Melissa: Okay, I love that. Because I feel like for us gals, we're all lavender ladies. so I love that. so you have a business called the Lavender Boutique. so I just want to put that out there right now. website, your website is Lavender Boutique, and we'll give the information at the end of the show. But Joseph, let's just start by asking Joseph: Thank you. Melissa: the the main question, and that is: how did you get into lavender farming and how long have you been doing that? Joseph: Yeah, well, I grew up on a farm in Quincy, Washington, which is right in the center of Washington state. And being a farm kid, we had a big garden that came from a family of nine. Mom and dad makes 11 and we had a big garden. vegetable garden growing a lot of our own things and stuff and I'm the youngest boy of the three other brothers and five sisters and so I spent a lot of time before I was old enough to go farm all day long with my dad and my other brothers I spent a lot of time in the garden growing things and things like that so my mother was into aromatherapy and and alternate medicines and stuff like that. And so if you know anything about lavender, it's like the Swiss Army knife of essential oils. And so she was well versed in using essential oils for alternative medicine. And and and so I got familiar with using lavender that way. And When I had a chance to, when I came back from overseas, so I played professional basketball in Australia for 23 years. And Melissa: wow, okay. Joseph: when I retired from that, I came back to help fix my mom and dad's house up, were, know, elderly by then. And so we were, I was kind of looking for another. Career, I guess, Melissa: Mm. Joseph: and I started looking at growing lavender in a greenhouse for propagation. And so that's how I got my start with lavender was as a propagator. Melissa: Okay, okay, I love that. how many years total have you been a lavender farmer? Joseph: I think I'm on my 15th year. Melissa: Okay, okay. And now in the world of lavender farming in the circle that we are in, whether you're a part of the United States Lavender Growers Association or just in a community of lavender farmers, you really are known for being the culinary expert. I mean that's is that correct to say, would you say? Joseph: yeah, yeah, I don't know the word expert, but you know, I have a lot of experience with it and, yeah, it's a, it's a main focus, a cornerstone of my farm. And that's what I decided to do was, you know, looking at, when I started to want to grow lavender, other than just for propagation, I kind of. came upon the idea of Lavender Boutique was, you know, I was going to have the varieties that a lot of other people didn't have. I was going to have a focus on, you know, you're going to come to the farm and you're going to see and experience lavender varieties that a lot of other farmers aren't growing. And that was my business name, Lavender Boutique by name and by nature is that I wasn't going to be just the big box store and grow all the same. varieties of lavender that all the other farmers were going to grow. And one of which really tweaked with me was culinary. And so presently I have 15 different varieties that I use in over 45 different products from Lavender Boutique. And I have about three other varieties that I'm currently experimenting with. I generally work with the culinary lavender variety for two years or so before. I fully understand it and decide whether I add it to my portfolio of lavender plants or or or whether I don't. A lot of them don't make it because they're not vibrant enough or not special enough, not unique enough and or maybe not hardy enough or don't produce enough. So I've got to really stringent guidelines and Melissa: Yeah. Joseph: So therefore, though, I've went through lots and lots of varieties and that that even they just didn't find the just one special enough or producing enough or flavor. Yeah, to to make the list. Melissa: Okay. So I would say you have a sophisticated palette for culinary lavender for sure. we talk about this a lot in Joseph: yeah. Melissa: my store. and so give us the rundown because when I talk about culinary lavender in my store, people always go, my gosh, I didn't know that. I didn't know that there was a difference. you know, they and they leave educated. So if you would give us the overall education of what is culinary, what makes it different, why is it culinary? And then maybe about some of the different culinaries that are maybe your favorite. Joseph: Yeah, okay. Well, the easiest way to to explain the the culinary lavender is more sweeter and subtle than the oil varieties. So if you're thinking about an oil variety, it's going to be the camphor. It's going to be that that eucalyptus tea tree scent that, you know, wakes up your senses and It's going to be bold and brass and, you know, really take notice of that. But that also leads to bitterness, too floral and like eating soap. And so that's the description of what a lot of people think. Lavender is going to be like. And if they have, and if you're eating the wrong one, that's exactly what it tastes. And it's very off putting. And so. The culinary lavender is the opposite of that. More sweeter, more subtle, light, a hint of lavender. The thing that people need to understand and remember is that lavender is a complementary herb. So that means it's to complement what you're putting it in, the dish or the dessert that you're putting it in. And so it's done best within the final tasting note. of the dessert, often leaving it lingering for a little bit more wishing you had a little bit more taste. And that's just the nature of a complimentary herb. And so that fits in there. Anytime you use the wrong lavender, like an oil variety, or put too much culinary lavender in, you move it from the last note to the middle note. then it is gonna be overpowering. It's gonna be off putting. so it's not only do you need to use the right lavender that's fitting those profiles, you also need to use the right amount. Either one of those Melissa: Mm, okay. Joseph: can lead to a bad experience. And Melissa: Okay, okay. Joseph: if the purpose of me being so outright honest with what these culinary lavenders need to be. is because we all suffer from a poor experience. Someone Melissa: Mm. Joseph: walks into your shop and you're trying to get them to do, to taste something culinary. They say, no, no, I've had that before. It was terrible. Well, you ask them, could you just have it one more time? They trust you and try again. They say, that's like nothing like I had before. And I can run Melissa: Yes. Joseph: down the list of, was it bitter? Was it flora? Was it overpowering? And they say, yes, yes, how do you know that? And I said, well, you had the wrong one. Melissa: Yes, exactly, exactly. I love, love, love that description. Can you talk a little bit about French versus English or other kinds of varieties? Is it is the culinary that you're talking about are are those English varieties? Can you can you talk about that a little bit more? Joseph: Yes. So part of my background is education. And so being an educator, it's a lifelong calling, not necessarily a job. so I, every time someone uses English or French to me, I always give them an opportunity to say, okay, well, what we mean is that's a slang word for Augusta folia and French is, you know, slang for intermediate. And so your majority of your culinary lavender are going to be Augusta folias. They're there. They by nature of that. species is more, it has less camphor. And so the camphor Melissa: Mm-hmm. Joseph: is a real deciding factor. There is a untrue fact that people like to say that any English or any Augusta folia can be used for cooking. But I remind them, and it's like, that's like saying any apple can be used for baking an apple pie. Melissa: Mm, mm. Joseph: And in theory, yes, it can. But if you want Melissa: Mm-hmm. Joseph: your best apple pie, you're going to use a cooking apple because it was designed to stay together. sugars are going to caramelize. It's going to be the best output. so not all Augusta folias should be used for cooking. They have other attributes, either for bouquets or for oil or for landscaping. Melissa: Mm, mm, mm-hmm. Joseph: than they would be for cooking. And that also leads me to the French or the Intermedia. Provence, to this date, is the only one that I've found to be suitable for culinary Melissa: Okay. Joseph: out of all the Intermedias. And I've tried several of them. And Provence is, when you stack Provence up against some of the other Intermedias, it does have less camphor in it. Melissa: Okay. Joseph: It does have a more Augusta folia smell profile and taste Melissa: Okay. Joseph: profile. For the most part, I use Provence for savory dishes because it does have a more robust, long lasting, earthy flavor to it. And that leads us to be used for like a rosemary, lavender shortbread, or for in my seasonings like Herb de Provence, you know, it just, it works well with, with savory. Melissa: Okay. It almost sounds like you've had I mean, r truly the the detail of your understanding of culinary lavender is so helpful. I love that you are an educator because I also have a background in education. And I too love the moment when somebody comes into my store and you know what it's like. I I've learned not to go into the whole angustifolia and intermedia because sometimes I can just see their eyes kind of glaze over. but I do love it when somebody comes into my store and they do have some background in that. And so they'll start asking some of those questions. So so I love that. my question also was as you're talking about this, it really sounds like you also have a background in some sort of training as as a chef or anything like that. Have you ever done that before? Or have you just learned along the way? Joseph: It's basically learn along the way. mean, we cook a wide variety of dishes growing up at different things. And then as part of me playing overseas, again, experience, had a couple years in Peru. And so you learn to eat different foods and what you like and try to recreate them and stuff. So yeah, but mostly self-taught. I Melissa: Okay. Joseph: do my research and I try to use that like lavender. It's like a complimentary herb. I know other herbs that it goes with, you know, and then try those. And then also, Try something that doesn't work. And sometimes that confirms the belief, know, if I, you know, put too much lavender in something because it tastes really good for a little bit, you think, okay, well, it's going to taste even better if I put more in and you try Melissa: Yes. Joseph: that just to confirm so that people, can say to people, no, that doesn't work. Not because I read it in a book, but because I've had that scoop of ice cream that was too strong, you know, Melissa: Yes, exactly. Joseph: only because I put in double the recipe or whatever to experiment with it. So most Melissa: Yes. Yes. Joseph: of it's self-taught. Melissa: Now I asked this question a little bit ago and Joseph: Okay. Melissa: I want to go back to it. And your as far as your favorite culinary, do you have a favorite culinary that you like to work with or does it depend on what you're making? Joseph: well, I, I'll laugh when I say answer this, right? So yes, I do have a full, a favorite culinary lavender, and that is the one that I'm using right there at the moment. Melissa: Okay. I love that. I love that. Joseph: And so it's, it depends. Melissa: Okay. Joseph: Miss Catherine at the moment is relatively new to me being in the second year that I've been using it. And it's just such a delightful color. It's surprise that gives such a deep color when it's such a flower, light pink, dries nearly white, clear and that. It's nice. It's the last three that Eunice, Miss Catherine and Brabrandt Blue are the last three that I've been working with that are added into my portfolio. Melissa: Okay. And how did you find out about those? D how did you know to try them? Or I mean, I've never even heard of those. Joseph: Yes, well, Eunice is part of the stable of the Riverina collection. Riverina Thomas, Riverina Allen, was a Riverina James. And so I was involved in those when they came over to the United States. They're from Australia. So Eunice was one that I wanted to explore. was designed, parents was Augusta folia. And so I thought it would be kind of neat to have that. It's proven to be a little bit of a challenge because it's more petite in growing. It's on the small side of an Augusta folia. Melissa: Mm. Joseph: Most Augusta folias are going to be 20 to 24, sometimes 26. It's under 18, so about 16 to 18 as a mature plant. Its stems are about six inches long and its flowering stock is about an inch, inch and a half. So it's proven to be a challenge to harvest it easily because it's so small in bundles. And Melissa: Mm-hmm. Joseph: then also I a mechanical harvest processor, a Bessel machine. Melissa: Okay. Joseph: The third one ever ever produced is the one I have. Melissa: Wow, really? Joseph: Yeah, and it's been fascinating Melissa: And it's still working. Joseph: to work just on a just on a side note. There's been fast fascinating to work with Ricardo Bessel on his improvement and his refinement of his of his machines and stuff. Melissa: Mm. Joseph: It's just a fantastic person. And just a great engineer. And so you would imagine. having a small bundle, my hands are large enough to palm a basketball. So they're hidden. The bundles kind of hidden in my hand and I got to feed it into the machine, but it's only short little stocks. Melissa: Yeah. Joseph: But currently I use it only for special occasions because I don't have that much of it. But it's yeah, it's definitely worth the flavor. Melissa: Okay. Joseph: You know, sometimes the harder the work, the sweeter the taste. Yeah, Melissa: Mm, I love that. Joseph: and so that's Eunice. Miss Brabant Blue. I had heard about it having a little bit of a citrus note to it that attracted me to that being it was unusual different than all the other ones. Edgerton Blue, New Zealand Blue. Buena Vista. Pacific Blue Opal Rain Melissa. Provence, Avis Hill, Royal Velvet, those are some of the other ones that I was growing. And so this one was unique. And so it was like, well, why am I going to grow the same taste profile as what I already have? so that led me to that, actually try that out. And it does indeed have a citrus note to it. which makes it unusual than the others. And it's kind of really cool to have a different flavor lemonade because it has a different citrus notes that compliments and highlights the flavor of the lemonade. And people are thinking that I got some special recipe for lemonade and it isn't. It's either Country Time Lemonade Mix, Melissa: huh. Joseph: then It's the lavender that's making it taste so wonderful and unique Melissa: Yes. Joseph: because it's the input that it's having on the flavor profile. Melissa: That makes me want to try it. So do you sell then that on your website? Joseph: And yeah. I am I am in the process of putting them on my website to individually a lot of the stuff that I'm selling to I sell a lot of other. 3 quarters of the lavender that I produce I sell to other farmers in Melissa: Uh-huh. Joseph: you know 1015 pound lots Melissa: Yeah. Joseph: the Brabant blue Miss Catherine that's usually sold out to retailers direct. And I'm in the process of adding to my website with a tasting notes and in photos and things so that people can choose which culinary lavender they want. want to experiment in that. But, Melissa: Mm, mm. Okay. Joseph: it's a lot of work to be able to have, just to be able to sell culinary lavender to people. but then that break it down into 15 different varieties. it's yeah. And so I'm working towards that. Melissa: That would be, that is a challenge because I think that we're really passionate about it, lavender overall, Joseph: Thank you. Melissa: and then for you, culinary, and even for me, culinary. But it is it is it's sometimes a challenging sell, Joseph: it. Melissa: just because of the details and the newness of it. How many plants do you have total? Joseph: I've got just over 25,000 plants on two locations. 104 Melissa: Wow, twenty-five thousand, okay. Joseph: different varieties. Melissa: Wow, okay, 25,000 plants, 104 varieties, most of which are English. Joseph: A good portion of our Augusta folias, I would say probably three quarters of Melissa: Okay. Joseph: them are Augusta folias. Melissa: Okay. And I love that you brought up the the side note, good side note with the vessel. So just for people listening in, well, tell us about the vessel because it's something that I aspire to have. and I love that you have been with him since the beginning. And you're right, he is an engineer, so I'd love to hear more about Joseph: Thank you. Melissa: that. But for me, it's something I've always wanted, but I couldn't quite justify it because I'm a I'm a small production, I have five hundred plants, so I can just do everything by hand, cutting and of course then taking the buds off. But yeah, tell us a little bit more Joseph: Yeah. Melissa: about the Bessel because I think it's a great side note. Joseph: Yes, OK, so it's a mechanical machine. has an opening with kind of like chimney brushes where you feed in to the the bundle. So the bundle is a rubber band. It's been dried. You feed it into the machine and it strips the buds, falls onto. A screen that goes through a series of three different levels of screens. There's a vacuum that helps with the dust control to suck out the dust and the different screens are different sizes so that the stalks or small bits of stalks that break during the stripping of the bud, they'll they'll stay on the screen and they'll come shift off to that while the other bud falls down through. yeah, it's a fantastic machine. It streamlines it. I do about 30 to 35,000 bundles a year. And so there's no way I could do that many and do it profitably if I didn't Melissa: Night. Joseph: have a machine like this. The best I can do six. 800 bundles an hour in the machine. it's really quite efficient. Ricardo kind of after initially the machine had kind of worked out that a lot of farmers aren't going to be big enough to afford or to justify having that big of a machine. And so that's when he came out with his midsize Melissa: Yeah. Joseph: and that's about two thirds the price. I think about $16,000. It has two screens. It has one brush and it works well too. Melissa: Okay. Joseph: really at one stage I both types. Melissa: Okay. Joseph: I had one available for rent for people to take it to their farm. The bigger machine being I had set up in a shed, perfectly set up. people would come to my farm to custom process their bud and Melissa: Mm. Joseph: that worked out well. The smaller machine was going to be for other people to come and get it because by nature it's only, I mean, it's a footprint smaller than a riding lawnmower, a small riding lawnmower. So it's really quite easy to move it around and stuff where the other machine is. seven foot by seven foot by six foot. It's quite big. Melissa: Yeah, yeah. So I've noticed when I've taken the buds off of the grosso, for example, which and in my store I love it because that's where people are coming in because they can smell it as I'm taking all the buds off the bundles. And it's easy to do, they come off really easily. But when I do that for my royal velvet, for example. They don't come off as easily. I have to do those stem by stem. So the vessel doesn't have any challenges with Joseph: Thank you. Melissa: those plants versus the rosso, for example. Joseph: It was good. No, it's it's Melissa: Okay. Joseph: really it's a that the chiming sweep out there. There are soft recently soft bristle brush Melissa: Okay. Joseph: running and there's two of them so you can gently apply the pressure that there is some for me. Buena Vista is is a challenge. It hangs on more than any other one. Melissa: Yes. Joseph: Royal Velvet is in that second level Melissa: Mm-hmm. Joseph: Provence and. tell you it's such a pleasure to do because it's such a big stock and they just fall right off and it just Melissa: Yes, yes. Joseph: really really pours out. If only every culinary lavender would produce like like Provence, know, it Melissa: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Joseph: would be indeed to be a charm. But. Yeah, no, sometimes it also that comes down to being in total control of the drying. If anything Melissa: Mm-hmm. Joseph: gets over dried, it's going to shatter rather than Melissa: Yeah. Joseph: when it's in that process. It also comes down into feeding the technique of feeding the machine where you put the bundle in and then pull it out and then twist and then put it back in. So you're getting the other side of the bundle. instead of just twisting it in there. And so a lot of that is technique. but drying is really important as well. My processing, my drying room is climate controlled so Melissa: Right. Joseph: that when the lavender is dried, it comes down. Hopefully I'm in a situation where I can take it and put it in the machine and process it that same day. Melissa: Mm-hmm. Joseph: but if I'm not, it goes into containers. And and into another room so that it's not not going to continue over drying or take up the moisture from the next rotation of culinary lavender that's coming in. Because when when when something is, you know, select the equilibrium of moisture. If you have something dry in the room and you put another you know 1000 bundles of moist fresh lavender in the room. Naturally, some of that moisture is going to be drawn and picked up by the dry bundles. And so that's something that people need to be really aware of is making sure that there are steps all the way along. Melissa: Yes. Joseph: if you want success, everyone needs to be absolutely exact. Melissa: Yes. I so appreciate that you brought up that point because I feel like it's a forgotten point for people who have come to me and I'm sure they have for you. And that is asking about, how do I become a lavender farmer? And so we go through this whole process of, asking them why they want to and where are they thinking and where do they live and all of those things that they're they're just thinking planting the the plant. And I'm like, okay, where are you going to dry all of this once you cut it? I think they're just, as you know, they're just so caught up in the wanting a lavender field and you know, wanting to know the details about planting the plant. But I'm just like, okay, remember, you're gonna have to harvest and then you need to find a drying space that's Joseph: Okay. Melissa: conducive to appropriate lavender dry drying and that is what has been such a challenge. So I actually really appreciate that you bring that up because I've noticed it's made such a huge difference in my lavender. And sometimes I'll visit various places and they're drying their lavender outside or and it gets faded or overdried. And again, they're using it for different reasons. They might not even be making products, but but I've noticed that. So I appreciate your detail in that. I'm wondering also, for us lavender farmers, most of us aspire to go to Provence. It's on our bucket list. And I was able to go for my fiftieth birthday a couple a couple of years ago. Joseph: This is the day. Okay. Melissa: I'm wondering for you, have you been there? And then also have you been anywhere else? Because I know there's so many places in this beautiful world that has lavender, but everybody thinks of Provence. So I'm just wondering if you have been to other places with lavender or if there are some on your bucket list. Joseph: I haven't had a chance yet to go to France or to Bulgaria normally because that's in the when it's flowering on that's what I'm at my busiest Melissa: Mm-hmm. Joseph: but I have had a chance to go to Brits though which is the I'm not sure if it's the largest labna farm in the world but I know it's the largest largest labna farm in the southern hemisphere they've got like 250,000 plants and it's in Tasmania And I've been there a number of times. When my mother visited me, that was one of the things that she wanted to do. We went Melissa: Mm. Joseph: out there and I've become good friends with the, with the owners. And so when I go back, we, I visit Tasmania regularly. We always go up to see them, whether it's in the flowering season or not, but being in the Southern hemisphere, their, their, their peak flowering time is December and January. Melissa: Uh-huh. Joseph: And so it's, it's absolutely amazing. to go there and see, well, virtually unlimited lavender because they have a topography, a slope. And so you'll see as far as the horizon goes, you'll see lavender because then it dips and yeah, it's amazing. Melissa: Amazing. Joseph: they... They have a long history. think I want to say probably like the early 1900s that it started. It might be longer than that. Started from seed. Sorted out the different varieties. I think they have five main varieties. They're all Augusta folias that make up their portfolio of lavender. And it's it's yeah. It's big business. They have I Melissa: Amazing. Joseph: believe they have some stuff on YouTube Melissa: Okay. Joseph: and that yeah, but they're. Yeah, they're they're stills. They have three of them. They're about four feet across about six feet high and it's listed big come across in a big gantry and a big basket fits into there and the oil just gushes out. like a tap when it's operating and stuff. It's truly amazing. Yeah. Melissa: my gosh. That sounds amazing. Yeah. That is wonderful. I'm going to add that to my bucket list for sure. the other thing I'm wondering, just because of your, and I do, I think it's an expertise in culinary and how to use Joseph: Thank Melissa: that lavender. I'm wondering if you have a book or if you've thought about writing a book, because I think what's also interesting about your story, Joseph, is that And for a lot of people that I'm interviewing is that you mentioned you were a basketball player and also an educator. And you know, a lot of us talk about becoming accidental lavender farmers and we all have some fun stories. But you weave that into your story and then you've kind of found this amazing niche in culinary lavender and you can just tell how knowledgeable you are, but how passionate you are about it. Have you thought about writing a book about your Joseph: for you. Melissa: life experience? not like getting to lavender farming. Joseph: Not so much about that. But I am doing a digital collection. And it has to do, and I think it will grow into that. The reason why I wanna do a digital collection rather than a book is because I know a lot of the books that I've read and researched, they often, after they're printed, they get to be outdated or need an extra chapter or new, you know, more information. digital collection would allow you to continue adding to that. And so it's in its progress and where we're at is taking pictures of the lavender in the spring at 5 % bloom. bloom rate ready to harvest because that's going to be different depending on whether it's going to be for oil or culinary or for fresh bouquets. And also then after in the fall, another photo and then the photos and collections of how we use them. So the culinary varieties would have recipes that we use. It would have simple syrup how to make some of these things and yeah, so it's going to be like a collection of of that but instead of it being a book it'll be digital where you can once you buy the book your you have all the additional stuff that comes on so it might be end up being more like a website necessarily where you could go I can go in and add new recipes and Melissa: I see. Joseph: things like that. I've got some people helping me with with that. I'm collecting the data and adding recipes and how I use them. Riverina Thomas, how I use that for essential oils, for bouquets, for fresh and dried wreath making, Melissa: Yeah. Joseph: those sorts of things. A variety called seal and also another one called sachet, how they're awesome for making sachets and eye pillows and neck wraps and things like that. Folgate. how that's so beautiful as an early bouquet and then Melissa: It is. Hmm. Joseph: also really nice oil and then fantastic hydrosol, which leads you to the different recipes for hydrosol that you would use a premium hydrosol as opposed to a pet spray where you would just use a utility hydrosol saving your folgate hydrosol for finer products than what the pet care would require. Melissa: Yeah. Joseph: so that's that's what I'm working around. Melissa: Okay. Gosh, and that's a whole other, as a whole other conversation about hydrosols and how to make them and how to use them and and all of that. It's just, it's very complex. so I'm wondering too, did I see some something somewhere about maybe it was another farmer that your farm was for sale or that you were retiring? Is am I misunderstanding that? Is that the case? Joseph: Yes, yeah. so, so I'm, I'm, it's, yes, it is. Yeah. So I have four properties, two, two farms, one's where my greenhouses is for the propagation, and then my distillery. And so my distillery is on five acres and it's the bulk of that sagebrush and high desert, central Washington. vegetation and so Melissa: Okay. Joseph: I'm going to continue. I'm going to continue owning that the other three properties. It's part of my transition to retirement. Melissa: Mm. Joseph: They are for sale and I the plan for is for me to continue running Lavender Boutique. I've had you know, had helped. over 35 different farms throughout the United States, Stark, Durr, Melissa: Mm, mm. Joseph: Lavender Farm. So I have a wide range of farms that I can buy my broad product in and continue making my product, being their customer instead of the other way around. yeah, Melissa: Yeah. Joseph: so the nature of that is, you know, turning as I get older, I'm gonna be 61 this year. physical nature of running farms, particularly on multiple locations, was just starting to get a bit too much for me and starting to impact my enjoyment of being involved Melissa: Mm. Joseph: in the lavender industry. And so I thought, well, if I was to sell the farms, that allows me to focus on some of the other stuff, more focusing on creating. things with culinary, maybe some other products, consulting, and then also propagation, getting some of those key 104 varieties out regionally throughout the United States to lift the standard of choices that lavender farmers have when they decide to a farm. Melissa: Yeah. And I could see why you would be the go to expert for sure. But and I hear what you're saying about harvesting as you're getting older. I've just noticed in the last five years it's just harder and I'm slowing down. And you know, and again, we're doing everything by hand, but I I don't have near as many as you do, but it's it's starting to be challenging and I'm already starting to think, okay, what am I gonna do when I can no longer harvest physically? Of course I have a crew that helps me, but still it's kind of thinking ahead. Of okay, is there another farmer that I can work with to get their bundles so that I'm not harvesting anymore and continue working with my store? So it's it's an interesting thing to think about. What do you think? And I and I think you're a good person to ask this because of your experience, but where do you think lavender farmers in general? Again, all of us are a part of this community, and I feel like overall. Joseph: Okay. Melissa: Lavender farmers are very willing to share their experience and their knowledge. And they're just, you know, you're a lavender farmer, you should be a lovely person, you should be friendly and nice and and but is there anywhere that you feel like lavender farmers are missing the mark as far as how they harvest or grow or talk about lavender or Educate on lavender. Do you feel like there's something as lavender farmers that you see that we could do better at? Joseph: Yes, plant selection, I think is really important. It's identified a lot of times. I mean, I. You need to understand why you're growing that plant. so I liken it sometimes the lavender farmers are really enthusiastic. Sometimes they end up putting the cart before the horse. They go, they buy a bunch of lavender without realizing that, you you. They are designed to grow for a certain reason. And without fully understanding that, you sometimes would grow the wrong one. that could, if you're trying to use culinary variety for oil, it might impact your bottom line because your oil is not going to be as sharp. smelling and vibrant as what your customer is expecting. So then when you use it in your lotion or body wash or something, it's going to be too faint for your customer to really enjoy it. so a lot of times they don't know to ask those questions, which is one of the reasons why I'm working with regional nurseries across the United States. to improve the varieties that they have instead of the nursery having only 10 varieties to choose from. I've worked with some of them. They're up to 50, 60 different varieties and working with them to actually put on their website the varieties in categories of uses rather than an alphabetical list Melissa: yes. Joseph: so that they can start looking at that and saying, okay, these are oil varieties. These are for culinary, these are for landscape, these are for fresh bouquets. Sometimes people think, if it's for fresh bouquets, they're great for dried bouquets. There's some fresh bouquets varieties that when they dry, they dry light, the Melissa: Hmm. Joseph: buds will fall off really easily. So you can't make that generalization that if it's a fresh bouquet, it's gonna be great for a dried bouquet. Melissa: Mm-hmm. Joseph: just the nature of how the plant, the characteristics and the attributes of the plant. So plant selection should be one of the, well, site selection of your property is Melissa: Mm. Joseph: first and foremost. Then the varieties that you choose to plant is high priority there. Melissa: Uh-huh. And I again appreciate that because I feel like in talking with other farmers, it's really about right place, right plant. You know, the there is that passion and that desire to grow a certain thing because of the way it looks. And and of course being here in Texas, there's such a a passion and a desire to grow lavender. and it there's attempt after attempt after attempt, right? And and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. And again, that's a whole other show as to why it does sometimes and why most of the time it doesn't. but it again, it's right place, right plant. So I I appreciate that. I really appreciate that. I'm wondering in talking with culinary, talking about culinary, what are some of the favorite products? that you make that are available on your website that you think are maybe even different than other offerings from other lavender farmers. Cause I feel like you have some great products. Joseph: Yes, I seasonings would be one example like my colleagues if they're gonna have culinary lavender nearly everyone has an herby Provence Melissa: Mm. Joseph: and so My Herb de Provence is a little bit different. I have Fennel in there, is that anise licorice flavor. Melissa: Yeah. Joseph: I also have two different lavenders. I have Provence for the main body flavor of the lavender. And then I would have a little bit of either Edgerton Blue or Royal Velvet for the sprinkle of that for the proof of concept that they can visually see that there's lavender in there. It stands out because most of the Herbie Provence ones are light green or brown in color. Melissa: Mm-hmm. Joseph: With the Provence, it dries to a blue-steel gray, so it fits in well with the other herbs from Provence. And then Royal Velvet or Edgerton Blue or Avasil. there are three of the brightest colors. And so you'd have just a sprinkle of that in there, not really to add to the flavor, but more for the visual of that. Provence is providing the most of the flavor in that mix. So doing that, Herb de Provence, well, there's also known herbs from Italy. And so I have an Italian seasoning and it's basically modeled after Herb de Provence, but it's... thyme and oregano and some other herbs in there that are well known from Italy. And I have a basil cilantro stir fry seasoning mix that's quite delightful. Then I have some, let's see. Yes, I had garlic seasoning. Lavender garlic seasoning then roasted lavender garlic seasoning with rosemary and that one is the rosemary is such a pleasure to work with and being in the same mint family Melissa: Mm-hmm. Joseph: as as lavender. It works really well with each other. There's a steak seasoning that I have. It's a rosemary, lavender. Black pepper. All of my seasonings don't have any additional salt in them. that it's their healthier choices, allowing the chef to decide how much more additional salt or pepper or other seasonings that are in there. And then then I run into I have some rubs and dips, onion chive dip, a spicy Mexican dip and Cajun rub. That's excellent on fish as well as chicken and steak as well. I have a fajita seasoning mix that's a little bit more robust than taco seasoning, but you can use it for taco seasoning as well and Yeah, so That those are some of my highlights Melissa: Okay, okay. And you've just you've contributed so much kind of info and education for the United States Lavender Growers Association also. Will you continue to be involved with them even as you kind of slow down? Joseph: Yeah, what actually has allowed me to do more work off the farm because I'm not as busy. I've been the educational sponsor of the front porch series for the USLJ the last three years, and Melissa: Okay. Joseph: I've done some of the front porch series on culinary. Melissa: Yeah. Joseph: this slowing down has allowed me to widen my interest in lavender in areas that I haven't had a chance to do before, because I didn't have the time to Melissa: Mm-hmm. Joseph: do that. Yeah, I'm still passionate about the lavender, still looking at other ways to make an input rather than just running my farm. Where can I help with the industry to advance it? Melissa: Yeah, yeah. What do you think again, my my podcast is about con connections and how we get to where we're at, but if you weren't a lavender farmer, what do you think you would have gone into? What else would you have been interested in, given your your skills and the way you think and the way you work? Joseph: I'm not sure. I had retired. So I had retired when I, when I moved back from Tasmania, I'd retired from basketball, and also retired, from teaching or retired from my teaching position. I didn't want it when I first come back, I didn't necessarily, I had an opportunity to go back into teaching and also to coaching straight away. resisted those, offers and the temptation to do that because I figured something else might come along where if I, continue teaching, you know, I was probably looking to the opportunity to do something different and Lavender came along and Melissa: Mm-hmm. Joseph: gave me that huge variety. I'm a little bit different than a lot of the Lavender farmers, a lot of them. do one aspect, they do either essential oil and you pick or they do products and then they go to the farmer's market. I mean, there's not one aspect of lavender farming that I haven't done and Melissa: Mm. Joseph: which makes me ideal consultant because I've experienced, you know, made mistakes and conquered, you know, Melissa: Yeah. Joseph: solve problems and add successes on all aspects of it. So yeah, that that is a that is a really good question. You know. I guess it's... Yeah, I'm not sure. I know Melissa: love that though, because you are really Joseph: when I first got back, yeah, when I first got back, Melissa: You're really doing what you love. Joseph: I was really, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so that was the biggest challenge when I decided that I was gonna retire. It's like, okay, do I just sell one farm? And being a farmer, be just as busy with one farm as I was too, because some of my... when you're running different properties, some of that takes care of, you know, can only do so much. And so that if you have one property instead of three, well, then you have all this extra energy to put in. You still put in the same number of hours. And so Melissa: Yes. Joseph: for me, it was matter of, it's never going to make a shift that I felt was important for me physically to buy selling all the three. And I kept the distillery property because it was the one that had the least amount of physical work to look after it because it was pretty much already, natural sagebrush and high desert plants and stuff like that. Melissa: Yes, yes. Joseph: but it's, it's, if, if you'd have virtually zero chance getting me on this, on, your podcast last year at this time, because Melissa: Yeah. Joseph: I wouldn't have the hours to do it. And Melissa: Yeah. Joseph: so it's, so if this is open, as I'm slowing down, I'm kind of speeding up in other areas, but Melissa: Hm. Joseph: that don't leave me physically worn out at the end of the day. Melissa: Yes, yes. You're a newlywed, aren't you? Joseph: Yes, yes, yeah. Melissa: Okay, good. Okay. Yeah, I I was thinking technically I think newlyweds are up to three years. Joseph: Thank you. Melissa: but congratulations on that too. So you're in that part of your life also. Joseph: Yeah, next year we celebrate our fifth wedding anniversary. So Melissa: Wow, okay, okay. Joseph: we're all making plans to go back to Maui where we got married. Melissa: So if I were to ask her what's it like to be married to the lavender man, what would she say? Joseph: she said it's absolutely wonderful. know, she's Melissa: It's very relaxing, right? Joseph: actually actually coined. Yeah, she actually coined the phrase lavender man. It's one of her claims to fame. She did. Yes, Melissa: She did. Okay. Yes, we will give her credit for that. Joseph: we're the backstory of that is we're up at W. We're up at WSU Washington State University at mom's weekend having a booth and. So, people would come up to her to ask a question. know, sometimes people can be sexist in their thinking that, you know, a man is just there to lift the boxes, right? Melissa: huh. Joseph: Couldn't possibly be the creator of the product and Melissa: Ha ha. Joseph: things like that. And so she'd have quite, she'd ask questions. She wouldn't have the answers. She said, I don't know, let's ask the lavender man. Melissa: Aha Joseph: And so then she'd be across the booth, she'd say, lavender man, can you come over here? Melissa: Yes. Joseph: And so it just went from there and yeah. Melissa: I love it. So she helps you and gets involved in the business, she's involved with, the events at farmers markets or things like that. Joseph: Thank Yes, you know, her, she runs open, open addiction clinics and her job is very stressful. And so for her to be able to come into the kitchen and experiment on some product, one in particular bath bombs, she Melissa: Mm. Joseph: was really determined to crack the code and to be successful making bath bombs. by their hundreds and not have any failures and stuff. so for her to be able to approach that sort of stuff, it just turns her mind off her business and stuff. She finds it very relaxing and stuff. Melissa: Yeah. Joseph: Yeah, it is an opportunity. When we first started out, we were traveling around. I mean, there is a path to that where you're making your product and you get out there and see your fans and develop your customers and stuff like that. So we're going to farmers markets and then three day shows and stuff like that. And so that that allowed us time to spend together. And that and. Yeah, it's it's some of our favorite memories, you know. There's a wine festival in Bellevue, Washington, and so we're talking about. being in the middle of a winery, a wine garden and having all this fantastic lavender product and culinary product for them to sample and sip and stuff like that. And it's like, yeah, it's really a wonderful opportunity for us to grow our business and stuff. And also, you know, atmosphere and talking to lots of people. very social and likes to hear people's story and Yeah, so it was just delightful for us to be in that environment together and that and. Yeah, so I'm pretty sure that's what she would say. Melissa: Yeah, good. I love it. Well, and you make mention addiction counseling. that is a very stressful job to be in. I've done it for a short time. and it it is. It's it's a it's an important job, but it it's hard because you're losing the battle oftentimes in that in that career. and so it can be really discouraging. So and you mentioned bath bombs. my gosh, those are such a pain to make. I I can't I have failed and then you you know, it's just if I have them in my store, I find a good wholesale person that's making them because it it it just takes too much time. So I'm glad that she finds that relaxing. Joseph: Yeah. Yeah. Melissa: one last question before before Joseph: question. Melissa: I have you, I'm gonna have you share your Instagram and your website, but my last question for you, Joseph, is what advice would you give a new lavender farmer? You mentioned plant selection earlier and that that was great. Joseph: Well, do it. Yeah, look, you really try to decide on not the romantic part of having a lavender farm because you can you can visit far cheaper than try to create your own. So decide on how what part of a lab, the farmer, do you want to be and and and what you know, so you don't have to have. 5000 plants if your main focus was going to be making product. It'd far easier for you to focus on the product that you might have several hundred plants to let people know that you are a lavender farm and that's your calling card. But so that you don't are not so busy taking care of all those plants that you don't have time to reach your full potential for your product. You Melissa: Mm-hmm. Joseph: know, growing lavender is just one aspect of it. You have to harvest it. You have to distill it. Then you're ready to make product. And so there's a lot of extra work involved in that. So if you if you guys want to if you and your wife or person with you wants to focus on Focus on a certain aspect of it. And just like if you didn't really want to make product, then don't focus on making your farm the best farmer can be, the most inviting. So people have multiple things to do when they come to your farm to visit and then partner with great people with great products to fill your store full of products for your customers to your visitors to buy. Melissa: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Such great advice. Such great advice and very encouraging too. do you I I actually do have one more question. In in that answer that you just gave, do you feel like in your business and at this place you are in life, do you still feel whimsical about being a lavender farmer? Do you still go out to your field and just go, my gosh, this is beautiful. Joseph: Yeah, I'm the harvest host person. The harvest host is an RV community. People sign up to be a member. Then they have opportunity to book. Overnight stays at about 3500 locations across the United States, most of which are farms and wineries and breweries and and distilleries and orchard and you know small business. things and stuff like that. so what sometimes when you're, know, long days, it's kind of you drag yourself into your pickup to drive home and you know, you've kind of not you're feeling over exhausted. But they come to the farm and yeah, they, they, you know, remind you of how beautiful it is and how, how, how it smells and, and You know, a slice of paradise and things like that. So I see it every day and sometimes I guess I don't stop to smell the roses or, you Melissa: Mm, mm. Joseph: know, fill the fill the lavender as much as what I should do. But when the times that you do it is magical. There's yeah, there's whether it's a sunrise or sunset or just during the day when the sun is shining bright and it's, you know, the purple of the lavender is standing out. Melissa: Mm. Joseph: It's truly special opportunity. And so I feel blessed to have the opportunity to use the land and to grow lavender and work with it. In particularly, one of the reasons why I have so many different varieties is that I'm able to have extended bloom time, which gives me extended harvest time. So I have purple or lavender flowering. from the end of May all the way through to the end of July, which most lavender farms are a two week window. And so that was a key part of me. Melissa: Mm-mm. Joseph: Tourist attraction, people come into the farm, extended time, they have time to come multiple times rather than just once. Also my harvesting crew, my workers, and for me, we have longer period of time to harvest. the plants because we're, you know, this variety is available, ready to harvest on Monday. This varieties on Wednesday, you know, different things like that. And so, I, I would say that, yeah, it's, it's, it's a special, it's a special opportunity. You're going to get, you know, experiences as a lavender farmer that no other growing any other crop. Melissa: Mm. Joseph: So I grew up on a farm and you feel that connection to your land by growing something, but the lavender is something different, unique again. Melissa: Yeah, yeah. It is. It just makes me remember being out there this summer and it is such a special thing. will you tell us your website and your Instagram where people can find you and buy your products? Joseph: Yes, so we're the lavender boutique dot net T H E lavender boutique dot net and then my Instagram is lavender man seven. Melissa: And I will also put that in the comments. Joseph: And we're on Facebook as out there. Yeah, Facebook is Lavender Boutique in Melissa: Okay. Joseph: Washington, think is what it is. Melissa: Well, I just want to thank you for your time today. I just so appreciate how you are not only giving back to the lavender farming community, truly, truly, but also just how you're giving back to your community and contributing to the world in a good way. So thank you for taking the time today for being on my podcast. I really appreciate it. Joseph: You're welcome. Thank you very much. I really appreciated the chat. Melissa: Thank you, Joseph.