Latest / The Book Deal / The Writing Deal: Natasha, Tina and Madeleine discuss 'stalking' story ideas, bookstore bravery, and 'who are you really writing for'?

Transcript

The Writing Deal: Natasha, Tina and Madeleine discuss 'stalking' story ideas, bookstore bravery, and 'who are you really writing for'? · The Book Deal

• 0:00
  This is the Book Deal podcast where you will discover the inspiring stories behind your favorite books.
• 0:08
  We interview seasoned and debut authors, as well as publishing industry professionals to bring you the best tips and advice on how to get that elusive book deal.
• 0:22
  So no matter what stage of writing your at.
• 0:27
  We've got you covered.
• 0:29
  I'm Tina Strachan.
• 0:30
  I'm Madeleine Cleary.
• 0:32
  And I'm Natasha Rai.
• 0:34
  And join us as we pull back the curtain of published authors one deal at a time.
• 0:42
  The Book Deal podcast acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters, which it's recorded on and pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging.
• 0:56
  Tina Strachan: Hello everybody, it's Tina Strachan here, and I am so delighted to be back again with my most incredible, wonderful co-hosts, Madeleine Cleary and Natasha Rai.
• 1:07
  Tina Strachan: How are you going ladies?
• 1:09
  Natasha Rai: Yeah, good, good.
• 1:12
  Tina Strachan: It's so nice to see you again.
• 1:14
  Tina Strachan: It's been, um, it's been a couple of months, hasn't it?
• 1:16
  Tina Strachan: And it's been a busy few months.
• 1:18
  Tina Strachan: Mm.
• 1:19
  Tina Strachan: For everybody.
• 1:20
  Tina Strachan: Lots of writing, lots of project.
• 1:22
  Tina Strachan: We always say this, Tina,
• 1:23
  Madeleine Cleary: though, isn't this how we always
• 1:25
  Tina Strachan: introduce
• 1:25
  Madeleine Cleary: every month?
• 1:26
  Madeleine Cleary: We're like,
• 1:27
  Natasha Rai: how busy we're,
• 1:29
  Tina Strachan: how?
• 1:31
  Tina Strachan: That's a good thing, you know?
• 1:32
  Tina Strachan: Or is it, do we look forward to a month where we're like, ah, I haven't done much.
• 1:37
  Natasha Rai: I wouldn't mind.
• 1:38
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 1:39
  Natasha Rai: To say I've had a great leisurely month.
• 1:41
  Natasha Rai: Yeah, I'd like to say that one time.
• 1:42
  Tina Strachan: Well, it has been, you know, there was a long weekend in there, um, Easter, and hopefully you've all had, uh, your fair share of chocolate.
• 1:52
  Madeleine Cleary: Know we said, you said that a couple of times I think in some voice notes about chocolate.
• 1:56
  Madeleine Cleary: I did not eat chocolate once over Easter.
• 1:59
  Madeleine Cleary: Is that bad?
• 2:00
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, I think so.
• 2:02
  Natasha Rai: It's, it's not bad.
• 2:03
  Natasha Rai: It just
• 2:04
  Tina Strachan: makes me sad.
• 2:05
  Madeleine Cleary: I know, I know.
• 2:06
  Madeleine Cleary: Well, I think because I looked, I looked at buying them, but maybe it's'cause I don't have kids.
• 2:10
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, and I did look at the shops and I was like looking at buying them and it was like$10 for an Easter egg and I'm like, am I just gonna buy myself an Easter egg?
• 2:17
  Madeleine Cleary: 'cause no one buys me Easter eggs anymore.
• 2:18
  Madeleine Cleary: How come no
• 2:19
  Tina Strachan: one's buying you an Easter egg?
• 2:20
  Tina Strachan: Well,
• 2:21
  Madeleine Cleary: because I'm a 30 5-year-old woman.
• 2:23
  Tina Strachan: Oh, it doesn't matter.
• 2:24
  Tina Strachan: Easter Bunny isn't ageist.
• 2:27
  Tina Strachan: It comes to everybody.
• 2:29
  Tina Strachan: Well,
• 2:29
  Madeleine Cleary: look, I, no, I know actually my, my best friend did buy me a lint bunny and I did eat that over the course of a week.
• 2:34
  Tina Strachan: Oh, okay.
• 2:35
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 2:35
  Madeleine Cleary: Just little bits because I'm not a big chocolate.
• 2:37
  Madeleine Cleary: Like I eat chocolate but I don't smash it.
• 2:40
  Natasha Rai: Ate t bunny over a week.
• 2:42
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 2:43
  Madeleine Cleary: Yes.
• 2:44
  Madeleine Cleary: Just little tiny.
• 2:45
  Madeleine Cleary: I just like pat laughed'cause I just broke off the ear and just nibbled, nibbled on that.
• 2:50
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, and then just slowly ate that throughout the week.
• 2:53
  Natasha Rai: I'm glad neither of you have ever.
• 2:55
  Natasha Rai: Well, Tina has, haven't seen me eat chocolate
• 2:59
  Madeleine Cleary: Natasha's making these like grabbing actions to her mouth.
• 3:04
  Tina Strachan: But look, hey, a lint Easter bunny is quality and should be save it.
• 3:07
  Tina Strachan: That's, I mean, that's if you have that kind of self-control,
• 3:10
  Natasha Rai: my best friend gave me a bunny too, and it was so cute because I was staying at her place and I woke up and she was creeping in with the bunny, like to pretend that Easter bunny had been, and she was gonna put it on my other little table next to the bed.
• 3:25
  Natasha Rai: So I, I ate that in one sitting during the writing session.
• 3:29
  Natasha Rai: And then I also got some, uh, Ferre.
• 3:31
  Natasha Rai: Roshes and I also ate every single
• 3:33
  Madeleine Cleary: one.
• 3:34
  Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
• 3:35
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 3:35
  Natasha Rai: I'm hard to
• 3:35
  Tina Strachan: stop.
• 3:36
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 3:36
  Madeleine Cleary: Oh, well we know what to get you, Tash.
• 3:38
  Madeleine Cleary: That's good to know.
• 3:39
  Madeleine Cleary: Chocolate Fe.
• 3:39
  Madeleine Cleary: My mom actually is also a chocolate fe.
• 3:42
  Madeleine Cleary: You can't have it in the house.
• 3:43
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, if you leave it out on the bench, like even if it's not her chocolate, sometimes I've bought chocolate for dad and he's left it out in the kitchen bench.
• 3:50
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 3:51
  Madeleine Cleary: And then uh
• 3:52
  Tina Strachan: hmm.
• 3:52
  Madeleine Cleary: Dad will come home, it's gone.
• 3:54
  Tina Strachan: And
• 3:54
  Madeleine Cleary: mom will always blame dad.
• 3:56
  Madeleine Cleary: It's like, well, if you leave it out, it's gonna be yes.
• 3:59
  Tina Strachan: There, there is that You gotta
• 4:00
  Madeleine Cleary: hide
• 4:00
  Tina Strachan: it.
• 4:00
  Tina Strachan: That is true.
• 4:01
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 4:01
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 4:01
  Tina Strachan: He should know
• 4:02
  Madeleine Cleary: what she's,
• 4:03
  Tina Strachan: she's like by now.
• 4:04
  Madeleine Cleary: Pat actually, he always says to me that I eat like a bunny, like I eat roughage and that's all I can stomach.
• 4:10
  Tina Strachan: You nibble.
• 4:11
  Madeleine Cleary: So maybe I'm the bunny.
• 4:12
  Madeleine Cleary: I'm actually not the, yeah, the chocolate fiend.
• 4:15
  Madeleine Cleary: I don't know.
• 4:17
  Tina Strachan: Okay.
• 4:17
  Tina Strachan: So no chocolate for me.
• 4:19
  Tina Strachan: Alright.
• 4:19
  Madeleine Cleary: Just get me carrots.
• 4:21
  Tina Strachan: Some carrots, some nibbles.
• 4:22
  Tina Strachan: Alright.
• 4:23
  Tina Strachan: Okay.
• 4:23
  Tina Strachan: Fair enough.
• 4:24
  Tina Strachan: Well I'm
• 4:24
  Madeleine Cleary: Tasha's like looking at me like how are we friends?
• 4:30
  Tina Strachan: It's funny, we were just talking about the riders on the reef.
• 4:32
  Tina Strachan: Um.
• 4:33
  Tina Strachan: Uh, residency, which mean attachment to last year obviously, and has just, they've just nail the short list this year.
• 4:38
  Tina Strachan: And we do, like we were talking about, like there was a lot of chocolate on that island.
• 4:43
  Tina Strachan: Um, little getaway I that yes, I think we
• 4:46
  Natasha Rai: probably all, I said lots of chocolate and lots of cheese and I said Whatever you think is a lot.
• 4:50
  Natasha Rai: Double it.
• 4:51
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 4:51
  Tina Strachan: And they came through with the goods.
• 4:53
  Tina Strachan: 'cause I think they, they, they're writers themselves and they understand what we do need.
• 4:56
  Madeleine Cleary: Cheese.
• 4:57
  Madeleine Cleary: Cheese.
• 4:57
  Madeleine Cleary: I'll
• 4:58
  Tina Strachan: smash.
• 4:58
  Tina Strachan: Oh, a whole wheel of
• 4:59
  Madeleine Cleary: cheese.
• 4:59
  Madeleine Cleary: I'll eat that.
• 5:00
  Tina Strachan: There was a lot of that too.
• 5:02
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 5:03
  Tina Strachan: Alright.
• 5:03
  Tina Strachan: Okay.
• 5:04
  Tina Strachan: Awesome ladies.
• 5:05
  Tina Strachan: And I hope, but did you, did you manage to have a little bit of a break though?
• 5:08
  Tina Strachan: A little bit of breast?
• 5:09
  Tina Strachan: No.
• 5:09
  Tina Strachan: No.
• 5:10
  Tina Strachan: Okay.
• 5:10
  Tina Strachan: Because we've got deadlines and things.
• 5:12
  Tina Strachan: All right.
• 5:12
  Tina Strachan: I wanna find out more.
• 5:14
  Tina Strachan: More about this, get a little bit of an update.
• 5:16
  Tina Strachan: We've got some fun things that we wanna chat about too as well, actually.
• 5:19
  Tina Strachan: Um, but you know what we haven't done in a long time and that I love to do, it's the guess what the new locations are of people that are listening to the podcast and who has been there at Oh,
• 5:30
  Natasha Rai: okay.
• 5:30
  Natasha Rai: Yeah, let's
• 5:31
  Madeleine Cleary: do it.
• 5:31
  Tina Strachan: Remember?
• 5:31
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 5:32
  Tina Strachan: So we've only done that a couple times and it's really fun.
• 5:34
  Tina Strachan: I keep forgetting to do it.
• 5:36
  Tina Strachan: Okay.
• 5:36
  Tina Strachan: So, um, let me know if you've been to these places.
• 5:38
  Tina Strachan: Ready?
• 5:39
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 5:40
  Tina Strachan: Welsh Pool in Western Australia.
• 5:42
  Madeleine Cleary: Nope.
• 5:43
  Madeleine Cleary: No,
• 5:43
  Tina Strachan: no.
• 5:43
  Tina Strachan: Me neither.
• 5:44
  Tina Strachan: I've actually never been to Western Australia, but I would really like to.
• 5:47
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, same.
• 5:47
  Tina Strachan: I'd like to.
• 5:48
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 5:49
  Tina Strachan: Uh, and they were listening to the Jack Heath episode from last week, so, which was lots of fun.
• 5:54
  Tina Strachan: We're gonna chat about that actually today.
• 5:56
  Tina Strachan: Uh, Danbury in Connecticut?
• 6:00
  Natasha Rai: No,
• 6:01
  Tina Strachan: no.
• 6:01
  Tina Strachan: I've been to the States, but I've not been to Connecticut.
• 6:03
  Tina Strachan: Again.
• 6:03
  Tina Strachan: Me neither.
• 6:04
  Tina Strachan: Listening to Jack Heath.
• 6:05
  Tina Strachan: Um, Glen.
• 6:06
  Tina Strachan: Iris in Victoria.
• 6:08
  Madeleine Cleary: Yes.
• 6:09
  Tina Strachan: Obviously Madeleine's been there.
• 6:10
  Tina Strachan: Is
• 6:11
  Madeleine Cleary: there in Melbourne?
• 6:13
  Madeleine Cleary: Oh, it's maybe, yeah, it's not too far.
• 6:15
  Tina Strachan: Uhhuh.
• 6:16
  Tina Strachan: Okay.
• 6:16
  Tina Strachan: All right.
• 6:17
  Tina Strachan: So, um, listening to our other, uh, the week before that with Tina Clark from CYA about how to, how to, you know, get your leg up with, uh, competitions and networking.
• 6:26
  Tina Strachan: Um, now this next one, I had to google this'cause I did not know where it was.
• 6:30
  Tina Strachan: And then I immediately started looking for flights there, Googling flights.
• 6:34
  Tina Strachan: It is tarawa in the Gilbert Islands.
• 6:37
  Tina Strachan: Have you ladies ever been there or heard of that before?
• 6:39
  Tina Strachan: No.
• 6:40
  Natasha Rai: No.
• 6:40
  Tina Strachan: Wow.
• 6:41
  Tina Strachan: It is at like a, it is a, um, string of islands in between Australia and Hawaii, like so tiny on the map.
• 6:49
  Tina Strachan: It is beautiful.
• 6:51
  Tina Strachan: Terawatt is like a.
• 6:52
  Tina Strachan: Coral Atal.
• 6:53
  Tina Strachan: There's like 70,000 people that live there, and it is gorgeous.
• 6:58
  Tina Strachan: And yes, you can, you can fly there and you can stay there and go on holidays.
• 7:02
  Tina Strachan: So I did look that up and they'll listening to the um, Kate Millen Hall, uh, hiding place.
• 7:06
  Tina Strachan: Spoiler Book Club.
• 7:07
  Madeleine Cleary: Oh, I
• 7:09
  Tina Strachan: should check it.
• 7:09
  Tina Strachan: That's amazing.
• 7:10
  Madeleine Cleary: We're gonna have to book a book deal podcast.
• 7:12
  Madeleine Cleary: I was just afraid to
• 7:13
  Natasha Rai: say that.
• 7:13
  Natasha Rai: Let's do a podcast.
• 7:14
  Tina Strachan: I just wanna know what, who, what, what is this person writing?
• 7:17
  Tina Strachan: If you're listening, let us know.
• 7:19
  Tina Strachan: It has to be some sort of, you know, reef.
• 7:22
  Tina Strachan: Adventure, fantasy.
• 7:24
  Tina Strachan: Some kind of romantic, although quite historical there, Madeleine.
• 7:27
  Tina Strachan: So maybe you could go and do some, um, research.
• 7:32
  Madeleine Cleary: Research, yeah.
• 7:32
  Madeleine Cleary: Anything tax deductible.
• 7:35
  Madeleine Cleary: Let's do it.
• 7:36
  Natasha Rai: Yeah, I can go do some research too.
• 7:37
  Natasha Rai: I, yeah.
• 7:39
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 7:39
  Tina Strachan: I, I like to write lots of things with environment and stuff in it.
• 7:42
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 7:43
  Madeleine Cleary: Done.
• 7:44
  Tina Strachan: So, uh, before we go off and plan our holidays, Tara Tarawa, um, I wanna hear updates ladies.
• 7:51
  Tina Strachan: It has been busy, like we said, lots of writing, which is incredible.
• 7:54
  Tina Strachan: Um, Tash, do you wanna start?
• 7:56
  Tina Strachan: What's, um, been up to.
• 7:59
  Natasha Rai: So I got my structural edits back.
• 8:01
  Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
• 8:02
  Natasha Rai: Along with very sad news that my publisher is now left Panera.
• 8:07
  Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
• 8:08
  Natasha Rai: So, um, it was huge.
• 8:09
  Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
• 8:10
  Natasha Rai: Two big things happening in one go.
• 8:11
  Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
• 8:12
  Natasha Rai: Um, but I've started working on my structural edits and oh my God, it is so different.
• 8:18
  Natasha Rai: And I know Mads, you've mentioned this already, working on yours, how different it is to book one.
• 8:23
  Natasha Rai: Um.
• 8:24
  Natasha Rai: I'm feeling a little stressed because the timelines feel very tight.
• 8:28
  Natasha Rai: I've only got a month, um, to turn them around, which is crazy.
• 8:31
  Madeleine Cleary: That's actually not a lot of time, is it?
• 8:32
  Natasha Rai: It isn't.
• 8:33
  Natasha Rai: It really isn't.
• 8:35
  Natasha Rai: Um,
• 8:35
  Tina Strachan: how many words is, is the novel at the moment?
• 8:39
  Natasha Rai: It's really long.
• 8:40
  Natasha Rai: It's like 120,000 words.
• 8:43
  Tina Strachan: Wow.
• 8:43
  Tina Strachan: It's cutting it part of what you
• 8:44
  Natasha Rai: have to do.
• 8:44
  Natasha Rai: No, that they don't want me to cut.
• 8:46
  Tina Strachan: Oh, wow.
• 8:47
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 8:47
  Natasha Rai: It's more that two thirds of it needs significant rewrites.
• 8:51
  Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
• 8:51
  Natasha Rai: Um, and so.
• 8:54
  Natasha Rai: I don't know.
• 8:55
  Natasha Rai: I, it feels like they are really confident and comfortable
• 8:59
  Tina Strachan: mm-hmm.
• 8:59
  Natasha Rai: In my ability to do it.
• 9:01
  Natasha Rai: Um, I think what I'm really worried about is that parts of it are of a standard that I'm happy with because I've been asking myself, am I, am I being hypercritical like really judgmental about this work?
• 9:13
  Natasha Rai: 'cause I'm not, I'm really not happy with it at the moment.
• 9:17
  Natasha Rai: So, but I can, but I know that there's parts of it that are good or of a standard that I'm comfortable with and other parts are not.
• 9:25
  Natasha Rai: And I'm, my worry is actually that I won't be able to get it to a standard that I'm okay with.
• 9:33
  Madeleine Cleary: Is there any flexibility with the four
• 9:35
  Natasha Rai: weeks they're looking into it?
• 9:36
  Natasha Rai: So, um, the, currently, the, the publication date is March next year, which I know is a, a year away.
• 9:42
  Natasha Rai: And that.
• 9:43
  Natasha Rai: You know, publishing works on such weird timelines.
• 9:46
  Natasha Rai: So, um, my new editor, Lex, she's looking into, maybe we move it to April.
• 9:52
  Natasha Rai: 'cause then that will give me more time.
• 9:54
  Natasha Rai: But that's my worry.
• 9:57
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 9:58
  Natasha Rai: So I'm basically using every moment I possibly can to do this work.
• 10:04
  Madeleine Cleary: It's so tough, isn't it?
• 10:05
  Madeleine Cleary: Because you want it to be your best work.
• 10:07
  Natasha Rai: Yes.
• 10:09
  Madeleine Cleary: And you want it to be something that you're proud of.
• 10:12
  Madeleine Cleary: But in the end, and this is something that we've heard time and time again from others, is this is the, the problem with the second book, this is the second book syndrome.
• 10:19
  Madeleine Cleary: There's, there are pressures and expectations on us that we didn't have when we were writing our first book.
• 10:25
  Madeleine Cleary: So yeah, it's a really tough one, isn't it?
• 10:28
  Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
• 10:28
  Madeleine Cleary: So you canceling all your plans then for the next
• 10:30
  Natasha Rai: one?
• 10:30
  Natasha Rai: Yes, I have.
• 10:31
  Natasha Rai: Um, and also I'm.
• 10:33
  Natasha Rai: I'm doing something which I've haven't done before, which is literally at work as soon as I have a break of an hour, if someone cancels or I happen to have an hour block, I'm now riding in those breaks.
• 10:44
  Natasha Rai: Whereas I used to just do professional development and um, and I'm doing like what I used to do when I had a full-time job, which is get up extra, extra early, like what you do, Tina, and ride in the mornings.
• 10:56
  Natasha Rai: So if I stick with that, I think I can get there.
• 11:00
  Tina Strachan: So are you, are you, are you having to like rewrite particular, um, scenes or is it overall arching themes or through lines or something
• 11:11
  Natasha Rai: that
• 11:11
  Tina Strachan: you
• 11:11
  Natasha Rai: It's, it's overall arching through lines.
• 11:13
  Natasha Rai: So there's hangovers in two of the sections from previous drafts that are not working because we, I've changed Yeah.
• 11:21
  Natasha Rai: The plot and the characters, um, kind of desires or needs, whatever you call it.
• 11:26
  Natasha Rai: Mm.
• 11:26
  Natasha Rai: So I just have to make it work
• 11:28
  Tina Strachan: slow.
• 11:30
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 11:30
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 11:30
  Tina Strachan: It's that pulling a, a thread.
• 11:32
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 11:33
  Tina Strachan: And it just starts to unravel things in all these other places that you can't quite see.
• 11:36
  Tina Strachan: And geez, it's just feels like a bit of, you get to a point where it feels like a bit of a mess in your mind, Hey, it's so hard to sort of,
• 11:42
  Natasha Rai: yeah.
• 11:43
  Tina Strachan: Stick with it.
• 11:43
  Tina Strachan: And because you know the story, the multiple edits of stories, sometimes as you read through.
• 11:50
  Tina Strachan: You've, you kind of, your brain sort of sometimes gets mud up with what version you're working with at the moment.
• 11:56
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 11:56
  Tina Strachan: So it doesn't necessarily pick up on something that's left over from that
• 11:59
  Natasha Rai: Exactly.
• 12:00
  Natasha Rai: That
• 12:00
  Tina Strachan: last edit.
• 12:01
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 12:01
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, it's
• 12:01
  Natasha Rai: tough.
• 12:02
  Natasha Rai: 'cause I also wanna give myself time to do the full read again before I send it back.
• 12:06
  Natasha Rai: But I've got some excellent advice.
• 12:07
  Natasha Rai: So I'm gonna chuck in a top tip that's worked really well for me.
• 12:11
  Natasha Rai: So, you know, like when you first get your notes from the editor and how they do it, like the letter or the kind of overall note?
• 12:18
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 12:18
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 12:18
  Natasha Rai: I don't know about you, but every time I read one of those, my first instinct is to panic and go, I can't do any of this.
• 12:26
  Natasha Rai: So then I put it away and then I come back to it and then I read it again and I'm like, yeah, I think so.
• 12:29
  Natasha Rai: So this time around, I was reading some of the notes and I'm like, I, I think I know what you mean, but I'm not sure.
• 12:36
  Natasha Rai: And Emily McGuire told me, gave me this great tip of.
• 12:40
  Natasha Rai: Write out in your own words what you think they're asking for.
• 12:47
  Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
• 12:49
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah, I like that.
• 12:50
  Natasha Rai: Yeah, so, and as soon as I did that, I just really distilled it down to like a sentence like, this isn't working.
• 12:57
  Natasha Rai: That's the problem.
• 12:59
  Natasha Rai: I was like, okay, now I can actually work out how to maybe fix this.
• 13:04
  Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
• 13:04
  Natasha Rai: It was so helpful.
• 13:05
  Madeleine Cleary: I do that too.
• 13:06
  Madeleine Cleary: I, when I get my report, I start in Word start making comments on each of their sentences, like, you know.
• 13:12
  Madeleine Cleary: Oh,
• 13:12
  Natasha Rai: that's good.
• 13:13
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 13:13
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 13:14
  Madeleine Cleary: And'cause then it prompts me to, like, I might have a question about it, um, and so I might wanna come back to it, or if I.
• 13:20
  Madeleine Cleary: You know,'cause normally what they're doing is identifying problems.
• 13:24
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 13:24
  Madeleine Cleary: They're not necessarily providing the solution.
• 13:27
  Madeleine Cleary: That's up to you.
• 13:28
  Madeleine Cleary: That's right.
• 13:28
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 13:28
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, and so, yeah, I, I, I think I do that as well.
• 13:31
  Madeleine Cleary: I just sort of go, and it might even be just a comment to myself, like I, yes, I think they're absolutely right here because this, this, this, this, and it's just like fleshing it out a little bit because, um, it, it is, you know, it is tough because I think a lot of people assume that.
• 13:48
  Madeleine Cleary: They're sort of guiding you on what you and how you're gonna change it and the how of it.
• 13:53
  Madeleine Cleary: But they don't give you necessarily the how.
• 13:55
  Madeleine Cleary: They're happy to workshop the how, but, but not, not necessarily give you the how.
• 14:00
  Natasha Rai: Yeah, exactly.
• 14:01
  Natasha Rai: So that was helpful.
• 14:02
  Natasha Rai: And then, um, the other thing I was gonna say about that is, oh, I, I don't know, it's gone.
• 14:07
  Natasha Rai: But yeah.
• 14:08
  Natasha Rai: So once I figured out, and also that whole thing of agreeing, like there nothing I read in the report was a surprise.
• 14:14
  Natasha Rai: I was like, I agree with all of this.
• 14:17
  Natasha Rai: I totally get it.
• 14:18
  Natasha Rai: Um, and now I have to figure out what the solution is.
• 14:22
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 14:23
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 14:23
  Tina Strachan: I don't think I've ever been surprised by feedback.
• 14:26
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 14:26
  Tina Strachan: Like I think it's, have you Madeleine as well, like, I, I feel like I've, you kind of always.
• 14:32
  Tina Strachan: Have a bit of idea of an idea of what's coming back because you sort of know yourself.
• 14:37
  Madeleine Cleary: It's also so annoying'cause you read it and you go,
• 14:39
  Tina Strachan: I knew that.
• 14:40
  Tina Strachan: I
• 14:40
  Madeleine Cleary: know,
• 14:40
  Tina Strachan: I knew
• 14:40
  Madeleine Cleary: that every time in, in the back of your brain, you knew that
• 14:44
  Tina Strachan: wasn't an issue.
• 14:45
  Tina Strachan: But do you think it's because you're kind of at a point where you're like, I can't work this anymore.
• 14:48
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 14:49
  Tina Strachan: I can't work it.
• 14:50
  Tina Strachan: And then as a writer, you know that your mind plays those sort of tricks on you sometimes.
• 14:53
  Tina Strachan: Doesn't it like it like, you know how you.
• 14:56
  Tina Strachan: We all go through that stage of going, oh, well this is crap.
• 14:59
  Tina Strachan: I can't write.
• 15:00
  Tina Strachan: This is ridiculous.
• 15:01
  Tina Strachan: And so sometimes you don't know what's actually, and it's not true, right?
• 15:05
  Tina Strachan: You know, it's just that process that we all go through and then we come out the other end and we're like, oh, this is great.
• 15:09
  Tina Strachan: But then when you have those thoughts in your mind like, oh, I reckon I should fix that.
• 15:14
  Tina Strachan: Like, I know for myself, I sometimes doubt it and go, oh, am I just doing that thing again in, in my brain?
• 15:19
  Tina Strachan: But I'm kind of finished.
• 15:20
  Tina Strachan: I think this is good.
• 15:20
  Tina Strachan: Now I think I, I think this is okay, but there is that little niggly thing and I just think maybe it's just my mind doing that.
• 15:26
  Tina Strachan: 'cause you can tinker forever is the thing.
• 15:29
  Tina Strachan: So it's like you do have to send it off and, and then you just get it back from your editor saying the exact thing that you knew you should affect.
• 15:36
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 15:37
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 15:37
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 15:38
  Tina Strachan: Okay.
• 15:38
  Tina Strachan: Interesting.
• 15:39
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 15:40
  Natasha Rai: Okay.
• 15:40
  Natasha Rai: So that's what I've been up to.
• 15:42
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 15:42
  Natasha Rai: Um, how are your edits going, Matt?
• 15:44
  Natasha Rai: How's your.
• 15:47
  Madeleine Cleary: So I was in a very similar situation, um, in that I got my report and I actually thought, oh, it's not, not gonna be too much work.
• 15:56
  Madeleine Cleary: Not as much, I suppose, as the butterfly women.
• 15:59
  Madeleine Cleary: And when I started going through it though.
• 16:01
  Madeleine Cleary: Similar to what you were saying, Tina, I, I've started to see extra things that are the niggling things that are not necessarily in the report, but have been, uh, in the process of finding solutions for those other things have revealed these gaping things.
• 16:18
  Madeleine Cleary: And so once you see it, you cannot unsee it.
• 16:23
  Natasha Rai: Mm.
• 16:23
  Madeleine Cleary: And because you know, all of us, we want our.
• 16:26
  Madeleine Cleary: The thing that we produce to be good and we want it to be the best possible thing, then we start unpicking it.
• 16:32
  Madeleine Cleary: So in this report, the, it was definitely the last, the first two thirds, uh, my publisher said, uh, are structurally good?
• 16:40
  Madeleine Cleary: And then it's the last third that really needs attention.
• 16:42
  Madeleine Cleary: So in my mind I was thinking, okay, I've got eight weeks.
• 16:46
  Madeleine Cleary: I'll try and smash out the first two thirds in the first four weeks, and then I'll give four weeks to the, the last third to give that time, like so I could have a deadline.
• 16:55
  Madeleine Cleary: And what I got to, I've got two weeks left of those eight weeks and I hadn't even started the last third'cause it, I just was, I unpicking all this stuff.
• 17:04
  Madeleine Cleary: And so, um, my top tip, well, I, I,'cause I was stressing myself out.
• 17:09
  Madeleine Cleary: I was really, really stressed out.
• 17:11
  Madeleine Cleary: I took a, a week off work and I thought I'd be able to get through it, but I didn't.
• 17:15
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, and, and it's, and it's like what I'm doing is I thought I would do a big read through and then start it, but I just couldn't work like that.
• 17:23
  Madeleine Cleary: I had to fix the issue at the time, and, and I have been going.
• 17:28
  Madeleine Cleary: Back over the same chapter over and over and over until it's perfect.
• 17:32
  Madeleine Cleary: Because if I don't fix it now, it, I can't do anything else for the rest of the book.
• 17:38
  Madeleine Cleary: So I had to fix it at the time.
• 17:40
  Madeleine Cleary: So I emailed Ruby, um.
• 17:43
  Madeleine Cleary: A few days ago, and I said, what's the, like what's, and I've never done this before.
• 17:47
  Madeleine Cleary: I've never asked for an extension.
• 17:48
  Madeleine Cleary: I've always submitted it at the JED deadline.
• 17:50
  Madeleine Cleary: I've been always very proud of that.
• 17:52
  Madeleine Cleary: But I swallowed my pride and I said, what's the last possible date I can submit to you?
• 17:57
  Madeleine Cleary: And she gave me an extra two months.
• 17:59
  Madeleine Cleary: She's like, oh, well actually if you give it to me by the end of June, that should be fine.
• 18:04
  Madeleine Cleary: And I was like.
• 18:05
  Madeleine Cleary: Oh my God.
• 18:06
  Madeleine Cleary: I have stressed myself for no reason.
• 18:08
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 18:09
  Madeleine Cleary: And so I said to her, it'll be back to you early May.
• 18:12
  Madeleine Cleary: And so she said, yep, deal.
• 18:13
  Madeleine Cleary: 'cause I don't wanna hang out over for the next two months, but I feel so much good that like, so today I was able to go to a book event.
• 18:19
  Madeleine Cleary: I had breakfast with mom, I'm gonna the 40 tomorrow.
• 18:22
  Madeleine Cleary: I feel much better.
• 18:23
  Madeleine Cleary: So
• 18:23
  Tina Strachan: yeah, that's it.
• 18:24
  Tina Strachan: And that's a really good tip to ask.
• 18:26
  Tina Strachan: And I've had to do that before too, when we've had some shuffles with.
• 18:28
  Tina Strachan: Um, timelines, but, uh, often, like, they don't want you to stress either.
• 18:34
  Tina Strachan: They want the good, a good product from you.
• 18:36
  Tina Strachan: And I think there's been times I, like I've noticed, I think, you know, they have to give a date and, you know, sometimes, not in all cases, but sometimes it's a d it's a hard and fast date.
• 18:45
  Tina Strachan: Like for some reason they just cannot move it.
• 18:46
  Tina Strachan: And that's.
• 18:47
  Tina Strachan: That happens, but you don't know if it is or not.
• 18:50
  Tina Strachan: And, you know, even a couple of weeks or, you know, I got, I had, um, COVID one year when I had, um, edits due or my, my final due I think it was.
• 18:59
  Tina Strachan: And you know, you know, everyone's had COVID there I think.
• 19:01
  Tina Strachan: But like my brain just.
• 19:04
  Tina Strachan: I couldn't, I couldn't even look at the computer.
• 19:06
  Tina Strachan: I couldn't, there's nothing I could do.
• 19:08
  Tina Strachan: And, um, yeah, for that I had, I just had to message and say, I just, my brain is just not working.
• 19:13
  Tina Strachan: I can't get this to you.
• 19:14
  Tina Strachan: And, and that were totally fine.
• 19:16
  Tina Strachan: I think I got another couple of weeks to, to do that, which was great.
• 19:19
  Tina Strachan: Um.
• 19:20
  Tina Strachan: But yeah, sometimes, yeah.
• 19:22
  Tina Strachan: It's not worth stressing on because if they can find time for you, they really will.
• 19:26
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm.
• 19:27
  Tina Strachan: Um, yeah.
• 19:27
  Tina Strachan: So that they can get the best product out of you.
• 19:29
  Tina Strachan: So, so, yes.
• 19:30
  Tina Strachan: And
• 19:31
  Madeleine Cleary: when you're stressed, you're not producing that good creative work as well.
• 19:34
  Tina Strachan: You're not, yeah.
• 19:35
  Madeleine Cleary: So I, I think it's, I think it's important, and particularly because writers these days, we all have.
• 19:40
  Madeleine Cleary: We will manage and balance other things.
• 19:42
  Madeleine Cleary: We're not sitting fulltime at our desk, are we?
• 19:45
  Madeleine Cleary: We've got like multiple others things
• 19:46
  Tina Strachan: that, yeah.
• 19:47
  Madeleine Cleary: It also coincided with an incredibly busy time at work, um, which was so unfortunate.
• 19:52
  Madeleine Cleary: They're like, oh, Madeleine, can you join this task force for like four weeks?
• 19:56
  Madeleine Cleary: As soon as I got my structural edits, I'm like, oh my God, I, how am I gonna do this?
• 20:01
  Madeleine Cleary: I know.
• 20:01
  Madeleine Cleary: So, you know, it's, it's, that's life though, isn't it?
• 20:03
  Madeleine Cleary: You can't necessarily always safeguard your time.
• 20:06
  Madeleine Cleary: Nice.
• 20:07
  Madeleine Cleary: But you can always try and ask for time.
• 20:10
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 20:10
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 20:10
  Tina Strachan: And I hope,
• 20:11
  Madeleine Cleary: I hope Tasha get that too.
• 20:13
  Natasha Rai: Thank you.
• 20:14
  Tina Strachan: Thank you.
• 20:14
  Tina Strachan: I know that you ladies will get through it and it'll be amazing and perfect.
• 20:18
  Madeleine Cleary: What about you, Tina?
• 20:19
  Madeleine Cleary: How's your month been?
• 20:20
  Tina Strachan: Oh, my month has been pretty good, actually.
• 20:23
  Tina Strachan: I've.
• 20:24
  Tina Strachan: I've been working on a few different things.
• 20:26
  Tina Strachan: It's been really fun, actually.
• 20:27
  Tina Strachan: But right now, so I just had, um, last week off it was school holidays and so we went away with the kids, just went to a lovely little town, um, Beachside town and just, I literally switched off and I, that was my plan.
• 20:41
  Tina Strachan: And, but not for riding really.
• 20:43
  Tina Strachan: Obviously I always still had that, but I still didn't even do a lot of that, but.
• 20:48
  Tina Strachan: What did happen was, um, I started something new.
• 20:53
  Tina Strachan: Uh, I started a whole new, um, a story idea that I, um, have just been thinking about for a really long time.
• 21:01
  Tina Strachan: It wasn't my plan to do that.
• 21:04
  Tina Strachan: I actually just wanted to, uh, get the, kind of the ideas that I have for this particular story just into a document on.
• 21:13
  Tina Strachan: On my computer because at before that it was literally just notes on my phone and, and in my mind I'd been thinking about it, like I'm talking, I had a note, one note just said Elephant, but I knew what I meant, but I'm like, I have to, there's more, there's more to it than that.
• 21:30
  Tina Strachan: I'm just, I'm gotta get it down in this document.
• 21:32
  Tina Strachan: And um, and then just once I started doing that, I just couldn't stop.
• 21:38
  Tina Strachan: Um, which was really exciting, um, because, and.
• 21:43
  Tina Strachan: Super excited about it now, and I just, I feel like I just have to finish writing this, or at least just start getting some chapters, opening chapters together.
• 21:51
  Tina Strachan: Um, but it's just another one of those, um, it's just fully coming to me now, like every time I sit down to the computer and open the document, it's just the ideas are coming and just ideas for a scene and then this scene and this scene and, and, um, yeah, it's super exciting, um, that, you know, that really fun.
• 22:07
  Tina Strachan: Moment where you've just starting something new.
• 22:09
  Tina Strachan: And I even got to a point where, and I was like, okay, this is when, you know, it's something when I open up Scrivener and start a Scrivener like it and actually give it a name and a file.
• 22:19
  Tina Strachan: It's like, okay, this is fresh and exciting and, and just, you know, that real, that amazing, you know, I haven't got to that part of.
• 22:25
  Tina Strachan: Try to worry about if all those scenes do fit in or, you know, if the wants and needs and desires of all the characters make sense or plan just, but just, um, yeah, it's just, it's quite an exciting book and there's a lot of action and adventure in it, which, um, is very exciting and, um.
• 22:40
  Tina Strachan: Lots of other things that I love to write about are in there.
• 22:42
  Tina Strachan: So I just, as it's coming to me, I'm just like doing that kind of, you know, we've spoken about it before in the pod, like a bit of, um, you know, word vomit where I'm just, it's just that stream of consciousness type stuff where I'll even be, I'll just have to close my eyes even and just like, type it out and just let it come out because it's all just coming faster than I can even type it.
• 23:01
  Tina Strachan: So that's,
• 23:02
  Madeleine Cleary: we've spoken about this.
• 23:04
  Madeleine Cleary: That does not happen with me.
• 23:07
  Tina Strachan: It because I think it just comes to me like this really exciting like movie or something.
• 23:10
  Tina Strachan: In my mind, I'm trying to write it all down and get it all down as quick as I possibly can.
• 23:15
  Tina Strachan: Um, yeah, I know Everywhere That's a DH adhd,
• 23:17
  Madeleine Cleary: right?
• 23:17
  Madeleine Cleary: Tina?
• 23:18
  Madeleine Cleary: Do you
• 23:18
  Tina Strachan: reckon that there's
• 23:19
  Madeleine Cleary: a, a thing there
• 23:20
  Tina Strachan: with that?
• 23:20
  Tina Strachan: I don't know.
• 23:21
  Tina Strachan: I think, you know, some people are like super visual, aren't they?
• 23:24
  Tina Strachan: And some, and you know, ev I think we've, we've interviewed enough in authors now to know that everyone's so different and I know.
• 23:31
  Tina Strachan: Um, like, it's kind of like just discovering like how you are discovering with your writing, Madeleine, but you are just doing it at probably a, a much more sensible pace.
• 23:39
  Tina Strachan: Whereas mine's coming to me so far, it's just like, you know, movie hitting my brain so fast and, and my only concern at the moment is like, wow, can I write this as well as it is in my mind?
• 23:50
  Tina Strachan: So I'm just like, and it's like probably quite, if anyone else tried to read it, I dunno if it would make any sense.
• 23:56
  Tina Strachan: Sometimes it won't make even make sense to me when I go back through it, but, um.
• 24:01
  Tina Strachan: It's just so many.
• 24:02
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, so many I ideas that I'm just trying to get down.
• 24:05
  Tina Strachan: So I've, I literally, in a couple of days I had like about 5,000 words, which is literally just my brain dump.
• 24:10
  Tina Strachan: None of it makes sense.
• 24:11
  Tina Strachan: But I think, you know, what I need to do now is do the um, uh, the, what do you call it?
• 24:17
  Tina Strachan: The palm card idea, because it is so messy and I've got so many seeds.
• 24:21
  Tina Strachan: Oh, like
• 24:22
  Madeleine Cleary: Ali,
• 24:22
  Tina Strachan: did I show you what Ali?
• 24:24
  Madeleine Cleary: I'm not sure if I mentioned this.
• 24:25
  Tina Strachan: Yes, yes.
• 24:26
  Tina Strachan: We've spoken about it before with Allian and her podcast.
• 24:28
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 24:28
  Tina Strachan: Index cards.
• 24:29
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, the index cards.
• 24:30
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 24:30
  Tina Strachan: And I've sort of done something like it before, after I've had a, the fall.
• 24:35
  Tina Strachan: Sort of novel written just to make sure that it works well.
• 24:38
  Tina Strachan: But I think that's what I need to do now.
• 24:39
  Tina Strachan: 'cause I've got so many big scenes I, and I need to just stick it big.
• 24:43
  Tina Strachan: And I know in Scrivener you can do that.
• 24:45
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 24:46
  Tina Strachan: You know, but I feel like I need a wall and I need to like stick it here and stick it there and just Okay.
• 24:49
  Tina Strachan: And just see
• 24:50
  Madeleine Cleary: it.
• 24:50
  Madeleine Cleary: Definitely message Allie Parker and she'll send you her video where she.
• 24:55
  Madeleine Cleary: Sort of articulates how she does her, how she does it.
• 24:58
  Madeleine Cleary: Index cards.
• 24:59
  Tina Strachan: Yeah,
• 24:59
  Madeleine Cleary: it is insane.
• 25:00
  Madeleine Cleary: There's like, there's like 50 or 60 of them.
• 25:03
  Madeleine Cleary: She, there's probably more.
• 25:04
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 25:05
  Madeleine Cleary: I was so impressed.
• 25:06
  Madeleine Cleary: And it's, we ally and I always laugh because our processes are so, so different
• 25:12
  Tina Strachan: and she's probably doing that the full in depth, uh, like save the cat method where you can do that.
• 25:19
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 25:19
  Tina Strachan: And there's definitely, and that, and I think that's really good'cause it tells you.
• 25:23
  Tina Strachan: It helps you go scene by scene.
• 25:25
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 25:25
  Tina Strachan: Does the scene turn, is it positive, negative, and get really into that?
• 25:28
  Tina Strachan: I, and she
• 25:29
  Madeleine Cleary: can move them around.
• 25:30
  Madeleine Cleary: 'cause when it's physical like that,
• 25:31
  Tina Strachan: yes.
• 25:32
  Tina Strachan: You can
• 25:32
  Madeleine Cleary: just move it physically mm-hmm.
• 25:34
  Madeleine Cleary: And sort them out.
• 25:35
  Madeleine Cleary: And then
• 25:35
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 25:35
  Madeleine Cleary: You know, she, she sometimes she's got multiple scenes, or scenes or multiple things that need to happen and she can layer it.
• 25:41
  Madeleine Cleary: So
• 25:41
  Tina Strachan: yes.
• 25:42
  Madeleine Cleary: That all of those three things have to happen in that scene.
• 25:45
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 25:45
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 25:46
  Tina Strachan: It's a really good way to get, get out.
• 25:47
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 25:48
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 25:48
  Madeleine Cleary: It's amazing.
• 25:49
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 25:49
  Madeleine Cleary: So, yeah.
• 25:50
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 25:50
  Tina Strachan: And you can do that again, and there's programs and stuff, but it, I just feel it's quite small on the screen.
• 25:55
  Tina Strachan: I actually really wanna get there and like move it all, and it's just really early days, but, um, but it's really super exciting and fun.
• 26:02
  Tina Strachan: But, so this whole story is, has been.
• 26:04
  Tina Strachan: It was just one scene that popped into my brain probably about a year or more ago.
• 26:10
  Tina Strachan: And it was really exciting and really fun and I was, and just really interesting and it's just stuck with me.
• 26:15
  Tina Strachan: And that's of course what ended up to me running like Elephant in my, in my notes book, um, on my phone.
• 26:20
  Tina Strachan: And then, you know, I've, the last year just some other random nonsensical sort of notes about it.
• 26:26
  Tina Strachan: Um, but it's still been percolating and so it's been this idea that's kind of stuck with me that I've always wanted to.
• 26:32
  Tina Strachan: To write and it just, um, made me remember the, we've interviewed a couple of people this year who have said similar.
• 26:39
  Tina Strachan: Things.
• 26:39
  Tina Strachan: We had Jack Heath last week, Natasha, that you interviewed and he mentioned the stalking idea.
• 26:45
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 26:45
  Tina Strachan: Didn't he?
• 26:46
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 26:46
  Tina Strachan: And um, yeah, I think Rebecca Arm, she said something similar and we've got another interview coming up with, I won't say who it's for, who it's with, but um, yeah, she also said something similar and that sometimes she just have these scenes or this idea.
• 26:59
  Tina Strachan: That just won't leave you.
• 27:00
  Tina Strachan: And I love how Jack called it the stalking, stalking idea.
• 27:03
  Tina Strachan: That's what he called it, wasn't it?
• 27:04
  Natasha Rai: Yes, it was.
• 27:05
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 27:05
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 27:05
  Tina Strachan: So has that happened?
• 27:06
  Tina Strachan: I just wanted to know if that's happened with you ladies before and is that, has it been that kind of stalking idea that you've had, um, for your books that you have, either you've already got out or the ones that you're writing now?
• 27:19
  Natasha Rai: For me, yes.
• 27:20
  Natasha Rai: So what tends to happen is I'll get an idea.
• 27:24
  Natasha Rai: If it feels good, I'll actually make sure I write it down or put it somewhere like what you said, Tina.
• 27:28
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 27:29
  Natasha Rai: But I don't necessarily do anything about it.
• 27:31
  Natasha Rai: Um, so I've got a few ideas like that where I'm like, Ooh, that's interesting.
• 27:35
  Natasha Rai: And then one of them will just keep coming back.
• 27:41
  Natasha Rai: Sometimes like a little whisper, like, Hey, and other times it'll be like a little prod, like, because suddenly I'll think of like, oh, but that idea, like something else could, like the next thing and the next thing.
• 27:52
  Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
• 27:52
  Natasha Rai: And then, mm-hmm.
• 27:54
  Natasha Rai: I'm like, I think I have more than just this little spark.
• 27:58
  Natasha Rai: And so I started writing this thing.
• 28:00
  Natasha Rai: It was late last year and I'm so excited about it.
• 28:04
  Natasha Rai: It's that kind of pace that you said Tina.
• 28:06
  Natasha Rai: But
• 28:06
  Tina Strachan: yeah, I love e,
• 28:06
  Natasha Rai: everything's coming so fast and it's so exciting and it started off with this scene with this woman getting into a cab with her daughter.
• 28:15
  Natasha Rai: And her bags are packed and she's leaving.
• 28:16
  Natasha Rai: And I'm like, oh yeah, cool.
• 28:18
  Natasha Rai: And I wrote it down and didn't think anything, but that kept coming back and it kept coming back.
• 28:22
  Natasha Rai: And then I'm like, and then the other things el, other elements that are coming in about who this woman is, who this little girl is, and 20,000 words.
• 28:30
  Natasha Rai: I was like, well just, wow.
• 28:31
  Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
• 28:32
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 28:33
  Natasha Rai: So I definitely.
• 28:35
  Natasha Rai: Relate with that idea of, or the theme of like something stalks your sticks with you and won't leave you alone.
• 28:42
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 28:42
  Madeleine Cleary: It's something exciting, very supernatural about it, isn't there?
• 28:45
  Tina Strachan: Mm.
• 28:46
  Madeleine Cleary: It's, I think there's something mystical and s
• 28:47
  Tina Strachan: channeling.
• 28:48
  Tina Strachan: It feels like channeling when you're in that moment, don't you
• 28:51
  Madeleine Cleary: think?
• 28:51
  Madeleine Cleary: Yes.
• 28:51
  Madeleine Cleary: Well, I mean, I've done a lot of research on spiritualism, obviously in the 19th century.
• 28:56
  Madeleine Cleary: This is my new, new book theme and spirit writing is a thing.
• 29:01
  Madeleine Cleary: It sounds like what what's happening is you are channeling a spirit and, and they're sending down their ideas and you are just the medium.
• 29:10
  Natasha Rai: It feels
• 29:11
  Madeleine Cleary: like that transcribing whatever spirit is telling you,
• 29:14
  Natasha Rai: it does feel like that because sometimes it's so clear that I'm like, Hmm, have I actually read this already somewhere and am I stealing someone's idea?
• 29:22
  Madeleine Cleary: Yes.
• 29:22
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 29:22
  Madeleine Cleary: And, and, and when you, when you are trying to work out, like there's a plot.
• 29:27
  Madeleine Cleary: Movement or something's happening and then you realize what it is and you go, oh my God.
• 29:32
  Madeleine Cleary: Of course that was always gonna be it.
• 29:34
  Tina Strachan: Yes, yes.
• 29:35
  Tina Strachan: It feels really right, just
• 29:36
  Natasha Rai: like that.
• 29:36
  Natasha Rai: Yes.
• 29:37
  Tina Strachan: And we made, you've mentioned it before recently, about how if you get stuck or if things are a bit slow with the writing about you'd like to have a nap.
• 29:45
  Tina Strachan: Yes, you were saying that.
• 29:46
  Tina Strachan: But, but I'm kind of the same.
• 29:47
  Tina Strachan: So I don't, don't have an app intentionally to try and solve it, but you know, I do love it now.
• 29:52
  Tina Strachan: Um, but.
• 29:54
  Tina Strachan: I it, and it happened to me like last week as well.
• 29:56
  Tina Strachan: Like I literally, I just lay down for a little and I actually couldn't nap.
• 30:01
  Tina Strachan: But you are in that kind of like liminal space, right?
• 30:03
  Tina Strachan: And.
• 30:04
  Tina Strachan: You know, I, my husband walked in like 10 minutes later and I'm frantically at the computer and I'm like, I'll give him no eye contact, give you nothing.
• 30:10
  Tina Strachan: Like, don't even look at me.
• 30:11
  Tina Strachan: I'm trying not to even be awake, but I'm even like, I'm trying to get those words down.
• 30:16
  Tina Strachan: That came to me while I was in that half asleep, half awake moment, and that.
• 30:22
  Tina Strachan: It's bloody fantastic.
• 30:23
  Tina Strachan: Right?
• 30:23
  Tina Strachan: Like, you just, like, you've solved everything and this, and it's amazing.
• 30:26
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 30:27
  Madeleine Cleary: Because you're turning your brain off from outside stimuli and you're turning into the internal and that's where all your it's where it's all coming from.
• 30:33
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 30:33
  Madeleine Cleary: You know, I, I actually find the last two weeks I've gotten real deep in structurals.
• 30:37
  Madeleine Cleary: 'cause I've had that time of work.
• 30:38
  Madeleine Cleary: And what I find now is when I'm sleeping, I'm having really poor sleeps at the moment, the last two weeks really light, light sleeping, because I keep.
• 30:49
  Madeleine Cleary: Waking up and thinking about the plot and coming up and it, it is like I'm just getting bombarded with answers.
• 30:57
  Madeleine Cleary: And it's just like, and this is your answer and this is your answer and this is your answer.
• 31:00
  Madeleine Cleary: And I said to my husband, I was like,'cause I got this very strange feeling again.
• 31:07
  Madeleine Cleary: 'cause this happened a couple of times, um, around my ancestor who I think is haunting me to get this story out.
• 31:14
  Madeleine Cleary: And she came very clearly with these answers overnight.
• 31:17
  Madeleine Cleary: Like, oh, last week.
• 31:19
  Madeleine Cleary: And my husband said to me, do you know, like I had really lucid, strange dreams that night too.
• 31:25
  Madeleine Cleary: Like I actually think that.
• 31:27
  Natasha Rai: Wow.
• 31:27
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 31:28
  Madeleine Cleary: And, but I think it's that feeling of just er being, it's immersion, isn't it?
• 31:32
  Madeleine Cleary: We've talked about this before, being immersed in the world.
• 31:35
  Madeleine Cleary: So I feel like I'm not gonna sleep well until this is done and the plot is solved and all the issues are solved, but it's really cool.
• 31:42
  Madeleine Cleary: To be able to, and it, it, it happens in sleep because your brain's at at rest.
• 31:46
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 31:46
  Madeleine Cleary: And ease.
• 31:47
  Madeleine Cleary: And it can allow to think through it.
• 31:48
  Madeleine Cleary: So yeah.
• 31:50
  Tina Strachan: It's cool.
• 31:50
  Tina Strachan: It's so fun.
• 31:51
  Tina Strachan: It's such a fun moment, isn't it?
• 31:53
  Tina Strachan: Oh, I'm glad that we're all in this super writing zone, our channeling of writing.
• 31:57
  Tina Strachan: It's a, it's such a fun, fun, fun time.
• 32:05
  Cassie Stroud: Hello, my name is Cassie Stroud and I'm an editor, bookseller and avid reader from Sydney.
• 32:11
  Cassie Stroud: My debut novel Iluka is the culmination of all the types of stories I love to read.
• 32:16
  Cassie Stroud: Some of my favorite books include the Past by Tessa Hadley, Family Album by Penelope Lively and Charlotte Woods, the Children.
• 32:25
  Cassie Stroud: I set out to write a novel with what I consider the best bits of the books I love.
• 32:29
  Cassie Stroud: So it's a family drama, it's contemporary.
• 32:32
  Cassie Stroud: It's Australian and it features a memorable house, which is called Iluka, a fibro shack on the south coast of New South Wales.
• 32:41
  Cassie Stroud: The novel follows three adult siblings who after the death of their grandparents return to the beach house where they were raised.
• 32:48
  Cassie Stroud: As they slowly clear the house for sale and relive various memories, they find a bundle of letters addressed to each of them from their missing mother That was sent long after they'd been told she died.
• 32:59
  Cassie Stroud: Their world shifts on its axis, and the siblings begin to question everything they've been told.
• 33:04
  Cassie Stroud: Why did their grandmother hide these letters?
• 33:06
  Cassie Stroud: Was their beloved grandfather complicit and could the mother they thought they had lost still be alive?
• 33:12
  Cassie Stroud: The story examines the stickiness of sibling relationships, the emotional pull of family, and what we owe to the people we love.
• 33:20
  Cassie Stroud: Iluka by me, Cassie Stroud is published by HQ Fiction and is out now.
• 33:30
  Tina Strachan: Jack's interview last week was really, was really interesting.
• 33:34
  Tina Strachan: Tash, what was it like interviewing Jack?
• 33:37
  Natasha Rai: It was amazing.
• 33:38
  Natasha Rai: Like he's so generous.
• 33:40
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 33:40
  Natasha Rai: I didn't, you know, for anyone who's listened to that already, like I didn't have to do much prompting and he was so, and you know, he's been around for 20 years mm-hmm.
• 33:51
  Natasha Rai: And has written over 40 books, so.
• 33:53
  Natasha Rai: He has, he is learned and he's seen so much.
• 33:57
  Natasha Rai: But there's a couple of things that really stood out to me.
• 33:59
  Natasha Rai: Like, you know, when he says about the industry, like the industry's always in trouble and books are always in trouble and they've been in trouble the whole time he's been, um, working and it's been fine.
• 34:11
  Natasha Rai: Like it just survives.
• 34:13
  Natasha Rai: So that was, that was that.
• 34:14
  Natasha Rai: I really felt that.
• 34:16
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 34:16
  Natasha Rai: Other thing.
• 34:16
  Natasha Rai: And
• 34:17
  Madeleine Cleary: that's very reassuring, isn't it, in this Yes.
• 34:18
  Madeleine Cleary: Envi, like the world right now is not, it's, it's not, doesn't feel like it's in a very healthy, good place.
• 34:24
  Natasha Rai: It's not.
• 34:25
  Natasha Rai: Definitely not.
• 34:25
  Madeleine Cleary: And I keep thinking.
• 34:27
  Madeleine Cleary: Why is anyone gonna buy a book in future when petrol costs a ridiculous amount?
• 34:33
  Madeleine Cleary: Like, you know what, what's gonna go?
• 34:35
  Madeleine Cleary: Is it gonna be books?
• 34:36
  Madeleine Cleary: But that jack's right, like this, it's, it's just always like,
• 34:40
  Natasha Rai: yeah, exactly.
• 34:41
  Natasha Rai: And just as a quick aside on that, I was in Better Read than Dead yesterday, and there was this woman and I just wanted to hug her, but obviously I didn't,'cause she's a stranger, but she was literally carrying around four books in her arms and she was still, she was still picking one or two more out.
• 34:56
  Natasha Rai: And I'm like, oh, I love this.
• 34:58
  Natasha Rai: I just love it.
• 34:58
  Natasha Rai: So it's people are buying books.
• 35:01
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 35:01
  Tina Strachan: Good.
• 35:02
  Natasha Rai: Good.
• 35:02
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 35:03
  Natasha Rai: Um.
• 35:04
  Tina Strachan: I was just gonna say that just reminds me of another story.
• 35:07
  Tina Strachan: Um, recently I was at Quick Brown Fox, uh, bookstore up here and, uh, I was just chatting to, um, the ladies there.
• 35:15
  Tina Strachan: And as we were there, this, uh, guy comes in with his kid and I could tell by the way that they were greeting him that they, they knew him.
• 35:23
  Tina Strachan: And, um, when he left and he had this little kid with him, he was so tiny, and the kid just comes in like clearly been there a thousand times I could sense.
• 35:31
  Tina Strachan: And he's just picks a book, grabs a book, and off they go.
• 35:33
  Tina Strachan: And, and um, I asked the, um, Anna and Theresa about it after they left and um, she said, yeah, they come in like every weekend or every other weekend and it's just part of their little routine.
• 35:44
  Tina Strachan: And they come in and he buys a new little book and then they go off to the park and play at the park with their book.
• 35:49
  Tina Strachan: And I'm like, it's just, yeah, it's still, people still value it.
• 35:52
  Tina Strachan: Oh
• 35:52
  Natasha Rai: yeah.
• 35:53
  Tina Strachan: Especially for children.
• 35:54
  Natasha Rai: And my favorite thing is,'cause you know, I'm doing a few shifts at my local bookshop.
• 35:57
  Natasha Rai: I have heard now like three times little kids are crying.
• 36:02
  Natasha Rai: 'cause I wanna come in and I can hear the parent going, I know it's your favorite shop where we're gonna come tomorrow.
• 36:07
  Natasha Rai: And I'm like, yes,
• 36:08
  Tina Strachan: yes.
• 36:09
  Tina Strachan: Oh, gives you faith, doesn't it?
• 36:10
  Tina Strachan: It does,
• 36:11
  Natasha Rai: yes.
• 36:12
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 36:12
  Tina Strachan: Faith in humanity.
• 36:14
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 36:15
  Natasha Rai: Um, well, speaking of books and the other thing that Jack said that really struck me Oh.
• 36:19
  Natasha Rai: Of books.
• 36:19
  Natasha Rai: Yes we are.
• 36:21
  Natasha Rai: Um, this idea of writing, like his job is to sell a book to a publisher.
• 36:27
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm.
• 36:29
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 36:29
  Natasha Rai: And it really struck me and,
• 36:31
  Madeleine Cleary: and sell a book to the publisher.
• 36:33
  Madeleine Cleary: It's not his job to sell a book to a reader.
• 36:35
  Madeleine Cleary: That's
• 36:35
  Natasha Rai: that.
• 36:36
  Natasha Rai: Yes, yes.
• 36:37
  Natasha Rai: And I can stop thinking about it.
• 36:38
  Natasha Rai: 'cause I'm trying to just see how that lands for me.
• 36:42
  Natasha Rai: And I'm like, all the advice is to write a book.
• 36:47
  Natasha Rai: Well, maybe write a book that you'd want to read.
• 36:49
  Natasha Rai: I know, but like what do you, yeah.
• 36:52
  Natasha Rai: How do, what do you two think of that?
• 36:55
  Tina Strachan: I think it probably depends on the genre as well.
• 36:58
  Tina Strachan: I think, um, Jack,'cause I agree.
• 37:00
  Tina Strachan: I'm like, that's interesting, interesting advice, right, right.
• 37:03
  Tina Strachan: For the publisher basically to purchase, not the reader.
• 37:06
  Tina Strachan: Um, I, I think it, if you write commercial fiction that's prob, that maybe rings true and it's very practical advice, right?
• 37:14
  Tina Strachan: He's not wrong.
• 37:15
  Tina Strachan: The publisher is the one buying your book.
• 37:17
  Tina Strachan: Um, but obviously.
• 37:20
  Tina Strachan: Publishers have that inside knowledge of what's going to sell.
• 37:23
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 37:24
  Tina Strachan: Um, from their point of view anyway, they, and they have a pretty good idea, um, and who, you know, is there a market for it and who wants this book at the moment, what's the demand like?
• 37:32
  Tina Strachan: So yeah.
• 37:33
  Tina Strachan: You, they know what they're looking for.
• 37:35
  Tina Strachan: So Yeah.
• 37:36
  Tina Strachan: You're, I guess you're writing for them to purchase it.
• 37:38
  Tina Strachan: And definitely when it comes to commercial fiction, I think that's probably does make a lot of sense.
• 37:43
  Tina Strachan: Um, but maybe not for, sorry, Madeleine, um, yeah, for, for other genres like.
• 37:48
  Tina Strachan: Maybe not literary where people, maybe, maybe it's different.
• 37:53
  Tina Strachan: We should ask publishers this next time we have them on.
• 37:55
  Tina Strachan: Um, if they're waiting to sort, maybe just find a voice that they think readers would like and yeah, I don't know.
• 38:03
  Tina Strachan: What do you think madam?
• 38:04
  Madeleine Cleary: I think it's a symptom of, well, if you think about it, Jack is a full-time writer.
• 38:10
  Natasha Rai: That's true.
• 38:11
  Madeleine Cleary: And he has a family that he's providing for.
• 38:13
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, he knows that.
• 38:15
  Madeleine Cleary: He has to sell these books in, in order to earn income for a lot of other writers.
• 38:22
  Madeleine Cleary: They're not necessarily relying on books to provide them with their full income.
• 38:26
  Madeleine Cleary: They've got, you know, secondary sources of employment or their partner is supporting them.
• 38:31
  Madeleine Cleary: Essentially.
• 38:31
  Madeleine Cleary: That's what it is.
• 38:32
  Madeleine Cleary: So I think it's a very practical thing, like if you are in that.
• 38:36
  Madeleine Cleary: Case where writing you are, you're very dependent on writing as your source of income.
• 38:40
  Madeleine Cleary: I think yes.
• 38:40
  Madeleine Cleary: You have to think about it in that way.
• 38:42
  Madeleine Cleary: You have to sell this book to your publisher because say you spend, if you're a commercial fiction writer, you put in a whole year of writing this book and then the publisher says no to it.
• 38:53
  Madeleine Cleary: That like, you still need to eat, don't you?
• 38:56
  Natasha Rai: Yeah,
• 38:56
  Madeleine Cleary: yeah.
• 38:56
  Madeleine Cleary: Food on the table.
• 38:57
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 38:57
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, so you have to be really mindful of, of that.
• 39:01
  Madeleine Cleary: I think.
• 39:02
  Natasha Rai: And also I think given his how long he's been in the industry, there's also confidence in readership, right?
• 39:09
  Madeleine Cleary: Yes.
• 39:09
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 39:09
  Natasha Rai: Like he knows that his name means something to his readers, whether it's YA or adult.
• 39:16
  Natasha Rai: So there is a confidence in.
• 39:20
  Natasha Rai: My readers are here and they're in my mind, but that's not the thing I need to worry about.
• 39:25
  Natasha Rai: Like, you know, as debuts or something, we have to think about, well who would read this?
• 39:29
  Natasha Rai: You know?
• 39:29
  Natasha Rai: 'cause we get asked all the time, who is your I?
• 39:32
  Natasha Rai: Who is this for?
• 39:33
  Natasha Rai: What, what do you want the reader to feel?
• 39:35
  Natasha Rai: Whereas maybe when we are having this conversation, 20 years, our conversation will be very different because we will have.
• 39:42
  Natasha Rai: Readers that are kind of consistent and want, you know, to read what we write.
• 39:47
  Natasha Rai: What
• 39:47
  Madeleine Cleary: I, what I really liked about the advice too though, is it actually puts a lot of the onus off the writer to sell the book.
• 39:54
  Madeleine Cleary: Well,
• 39:55
  Natasha Rai: yes.
• 39:55
  Madeleine Cleary: cause really he's saying that the, it's the publisher's role to sell the book to readers.
• 39:59
  Madeleine Cleary: That is the publisher's role hand in hand with the author, of course.
• 40:02
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 40:03
  Madeleine Cleary: But the responsibility in a, in an essence lies with the publisher.
• 40:07
  Madeleine Cleary: And I think that is a really reassuring thing for writers.
• 40:10
  Madeleine Cleary: If your book hasn't.
• 40:11
  Madeleine Cleary: Done as well as you like.
• 40:12
  Madeleine Cleary: In the end, there's only so much you can do exactly as an author to generate that.
• 40:17
  Madeleine Cleary: It is the publisher's role.
• 40:18
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 40:19
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, your role is to write the best possible book you can.
• 40:22
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, and then after that, the publisher will take it.
• 40:24
  Madeleine Cleary: I, I, I actually really appreciated that.
• 40:27
  Tina Strachan: Mm.
• 40:28
  Tina Strachan: That's a really good segue actually into what I wanted to chat to you about, um, next, but I just wanted to say backwards.
• 40:34
  Tina Strachan: Um.
• 40:35
  Tina Strachan: With Jack's comment, I guess, um, it is just aimed at people who want to be traditionally published, obviously.
• 40:40
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 40:40
  Tina Strachan: Like you certainly should write with, I guess with your readers in mind, obviously.
• 40:45
  Tina Strachan: And, um, if you have no intention of, or, or aren't concerned about being, having a publisher sign you so that you can traditionally publish and you're happy to, um.
• 40:55
  Tina Strachan: You know, go through the, uh, self-publishing route, then obviously that that doesn't, um, mean anything.
• 41:00
  Tina Strachan: And, and maybe it's more, you know, like Catherine Mill was chatting about, um.
• 41:05
  Tina Strachan: Don't pitch me something that doesn't, that I don't represent as well, that, that I would never rep.
• 41:10
  Tina Strachan: So there's a little bit of that too, like, who are you, which publisher are you writing for?
• 41:15
  Tina Strachan: So if you want to sell, you know, um, something to Catherine Mill, make sure that it fits what she wants.
• 41:21
  Tina Strachan: So that, that's the little bit of, you know, writing for, if you want her to be a publisher, then you know what you've gotta write to.
• 41:27
  Tina Strachan: To, um, to send to her.
• 41:28
  Tina Strachan: You're not gonna picture something completely out of, out of her realm.
• 41:31
  Tina Strachan: But,
• 41:32
  Madeleine Cleary: um, this, this sounds really strange, but when I was writing book two, I actually, because you know, they say that you have someone in mind when you're writing a book.
• 41:40
  Madeleine Cleary: I don't know if you've, if you guys have someone in mind writing as a publisher or,
• 41:43
  Tina Strachan: or, or a reader.
• 41:44
  Madeleine Cleary: No, no.
• 41:45
  Madeleine Cleary: It, sometimes I've heard this thing where sometimes when you're writing, you have.
• 41:49
  Madeleine Cleary: Someone in mind, like I think Stephen King said it, he, he writes with his wife in mind, um, and Aw yeah.
• 41:55
  Madeleine Cleary: Which is really sweet.
• 41:56
  Madeleine Cleary: And like he'll go, oh, this will make her laugh.
• 41:58
  Madeleine Cleary: Or this will, you know, as in her
• 42:00
  Tina Strachan: reading it, it's
• 42:02
  Madeleine Cleary: what was thinking.
• 42:02
  Tina Strachan: Oh,
• 42:03
  Madeleine Cleary: and, and I, I definitely did that.
• 42:05
  Madeleine Cleary: I think when I wrote Butterfly, I was thinking, in my mind, I was actually thinking of a couple of my friends who love historical fiction.
• 42:12
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 42:12
  Madeleine Cleary: And I was thinking about what they would enjoy in a story like the romance and that kind of stuff.
• 42:17
  Madeleine Cleary: But then with book two, I was thinking of my publisher.
• 42:21
  Madeleine Cleary: I had Ruby in mind like, oh, Ruby would like this walk through Melbourne.
• 42:26
  Madeleine Cleary: 'cause she loves like the visuals of Melbourne and the sort of immersion.
• 42:29
  Madeleine Cleary: And I, I definitely put in some of those scenes because I knew she would really like those.
• 42:34
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah, so isn't that funny?
• 42:35
  Madeleine Cleary: So I did do a switch.
• 42:37
  Madeleine Cleary: For
• 42:37
  Tina Strachan: sure.
• 42:37
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 42:38
  Tina Strachan: That pretty, I'm
• 42:39
  Madeleine Cleary: writing a book sell her because in the end I had to sell this book to her.
• 42:42
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, that's right.
• 42:43
  Tina Strachan: But I mean, it's, who doesn't love, you know, visuals of Melbourne, right.
• 42:47
  Tina Strachan: It's, I think it's probably just, yeah, added a little bit of extra.
• 42:52
  Tina Strachan: But, um, I did wanna talk, so what you were saying.
• 42:54
  Tina Strachan: Then I think it leads really well into this next conversation about, um, you know, the job of selling the book is the publisher.
• 43:00
  Tina Strachan: And, and we know that yes, they do, they do the actual selling to the stores, they have the marketing budget or maybe not, um, but they have the ties and the connections and they do so much behind the scene, you know, getting your books and into libraries and, and all those sorts of things and just schools and, and, um, everything like that.
• 43:18
  Tina Strachan: Um, but then also, uh, as the author.
• 43:22
  Tina Strachan: You obviously hand in hand, like you said, Madeleine, um, working together to try and get the word out about your book.
• 43:27
  Tina Strachan: And, uh, everyone always asks this question, don't they?
• 43:30
  Tina Strachan: I think it's probably the number one ask question, what can I actually do to help sell my books?
• 43:36
  Tina Strachan: Um, is it posting on Instagram or social media all the time.
• 43:40
  Tina Strachan: Because sometimes that feels like the only thing we can do or have control over.
• 43:45
  Tina Strachan: Um, it is quite hard and, and we'll talk about this just recently because, um, I've done a few in-person events and for me, I, I.
• 43:55
  Tina Strachan: Think that that's worked really well for selling books.
• 43:58
  Tina Strachan: I feel like I can control that.
• 44:00
  Tina Strachan: Um, that's something where I can do, I can turn up and, you know, I did, uh, an event at where the Wild Things Are bookstore the other week and you know, we had it booked out.
• 44:10
  Tina Strachan: There was 20 kids, it was a school holiday thing and each one of those kids, uh, bought a book.
• 44:14
  Tina Strachan: You know, so that's that.
• 44:16
  Tina Strachan: I felt like I.
• 44:17
  Tina Strachan: Could go there and I'm doing my job and I'm selling my book and, and that's a great outcome, right?
• 44:22
  Tina Strachan: Whereas, because, you know, I walk into these massive bookstores and you know, they've got a couple of copies and they're s Spine out and they've got literally thousands of books on this wall.
• 44:31
  Tina Strachan: I just don't know.
• 44:32
  Tina Strachan: And they're all spy out.
• 44:33
  Tina Strachan: There's a couple that are a face out, which are probably the ones that have just come out.
• 44:36
  Tina Strachan: I just see these spines and I just think how, how is anyone seeing my book there on the shelf among.
• 44:42
  Tina Strachan: All those over, have they seen any of these books?
• 44:44
  Tina Strachan: Like it must be, and I see the kids come up and the moms come up and they just kind of stare at these walls, just overwhelmed by it all.
• 44:51
  Tina Strachan: Like where, honestly, where do you start and how can you stand out on that shelf?
• 44:55
  Tina Strachan: You know?
• 44:55
  Tina Strachan: And I, you know, definitely do feel like that in those big bookstores.
• 44:58
  Tina Strachan: And, um, so I was, you know, chatting with, uh, you ladies off, off air about, um, how I felt like that doing events.
• 45:07
  Tina Strachan: Bookstore events, library events, um, festivals, if you can get festivals, but just any of those sorts of things.
• 45:13
  Tina Strachan: I've got a few other workshops coming up.
• 45:15
  Tina Strachan: Um, I feel like that I have, I, I've got a good control and I, I'm sort of making a difference, uh, by doing that when it comes to, you know, getting the books out there into the hands of the readers.
• 45:27
  Tina Strachan: Um.
• 45:28
  Tina Strachan: Madeleine, you were, and what do you guys think about that?
• 45:30
  Tina Strachan: The, the in person and, um, and Madeleine you were mentioning, um, uh, change to booksellers as well
• 45:37
  Madeleine Cleary: in person.
• 45:38
  Madeleine Cleary: I mean, for me, that's where I get, I feel the most joy is when you're talking with people about the book.
• 45:43
  Madeleine Cleary: I get very little joy from social media and I have banged on about that on this podcast for years.
• 45:50
  Madeleine Cleary: That, that I just don't get a lot of, um, out of social media.
• 45:53
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, I understand it's importance and it's value, but I just don't get that.
• 45:56
  Madeleine Cleary: But yeah, the in-person events are amazing, so yeah.
• 46:00
  Madeleine Cleary: Look, I, I think, and what you said so resonated with me when you were sort of saying you're in a bookshop and you're looking on the shelf and you go to the very back of the store and there's your copy.
• 46:08
  Madeleine Cleary: I remember actually I was in, um, I won't name the bookshop, but, um, I was with a friend and we were looking for a copy of the Butterfly Women and um, you know, at the start, like this book.
• 46:20
  Madeleine Cleary: This like where there were quite a few copies in this bookshop, but I remember And it's one of these bookshops with really high bookshelves.
• 46:27
  Madeleine Cleary: Yes.
• 46:28
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 46:28
  Madeleine Cleary: And and because Cleary C falls in that particular thing, it was right up the top.
• 46:34
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 46:34
  Madeleine Cleary: Like I couldn't reach it.
• 46:35
  Madeleine Cleary: No way.
• 46:36
  Madeleine Cleary: You'd have to get a ladder.
• 46:37
  Madeleine Cleary: To climb up to get the one copy and it's like wedged in with, you know, everything.
• 46:41
  Madeleine Cleary: And I'm like, not nobody is going to buy this book off the shelf unless somebody recommends that.
• 46:50
  Madeleine Cleary: That's right.
• 46:50
  Madeleine Cleary: And that's book seller right's.
• 46:52
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 46:52
  Madeleine Cleary: So, um, I, I have been on this campaign and you guys know this'cause I think you've both been in bookshops with me.
• 47:00
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 47:01
  Madeleine Cleary: If you see your book on a bookshelf, you get, grab that copy off that super high, you climb that ladder, you get it down, you go and introduce yourself to the bookseller.
• 47:12
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, you tell them your pitch, you tell them what it's about.
• 47:15
  Madeleine Cleary: You be absolutely shameless about it.
• 47:18
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, so my approach to this and I, I've, I, I, I mean, I love talking with booksellers.
• 47:24
  Madeleine Cleary: 'cause booksellers are the most amazing people and Tash is a bookseller.
• 47:27
  Madeleine Cleary: So she can tell me if.
• 47:28
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, my approach is completely, terribly wrong.
• 47:32
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, sorry, Tash,
• 47:33
  Tina Strachan: do you find it easier to talk to other booksellers now that you're a book sellers?
• 47:36
  Tina Strachan: Oh, oh
• 47:36
  Madeleine Cleary: yeah.
• 47:38
  Madeleine Cleary: Okay.
• 47:38
  Tina Strachan: Alright.
• 47:38
  So
• 47:38
  Madeleine Cleary: you just like, yes, because Tash, you were one of those ones that were so shy about going
• 47:42
  Natasha Rai: to people I know.
• 47:44
  Natasha Rai: Now I'm like, I'll.
• 47:45
  Natasha Rai: I'll talk, I talk to random people in bookshops and I go buy that book.
• 47:48
  Natasha Rai: And they're like, okay.
• 47:49
  Natasha Rai: And they do.
• 47:49
  Natasha Rai: Ah, but I'm not even working there.
• 47:51
  Tina Strachan: Okay.
• 47:52
  Tina Strachan: All right.
• 47:52
  Madeleine Cleary: Yes, that's what I do too.
• 47:53
  Madeleine Cleary: And I mean, I remember telling you guys how I saw someone looking at my book once in a bookshop, and I went up to them and said, you should buy that.
• 48:01
  Madeleine Cleary: And I'm like, I'm the author, I'll sign it for you.
• 48:03
  Madeleine Cleary: But, and you both were like, I would never do that, ever.
• 48:06
  Madeleine Cleary: But of course you have to.
• 48:07
  Madeleine Cleary: Like, they might not buy it otherwise.
• 48:08
  Madeleine Cleary: So.
• 48:09
  Madeleine Cleary: Okay, so my approach, so I'll give you an example.
• 48:12
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, I had a really lovely event on the morning to Peninsula Rosebud Library.
• 48:16
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, and I knew about this in advance, and so I looked at, and it's a, it's a fair journey, like an hour and a half to, and so I thought, oh, I'll stop at some bookshops on the way I.
• 48:25
  Madeleine Cleary: Three weeks out, I emailed all those bookshops.
• 48:28
  Madeleine Cleary: I said Hi.
• 48:29
  Madeleine Cleary: I introduced myself.
• 48:31
  Madeleine Cleary: I said, I'm coming.
• 48:32
  Madeleine Cleary: I would love to come in and stop and say hi.
• 48:33
  Madeleine Cleary: I said, it doesn't matter.
• 48:34
  Madeleine Cleary: If you don't have any books in stock, that's totally fine.
• 48:37
  Madeleine Cleary: I just wanna, you know, introduce myself and see, and come and visit, you know, visit the bookshop.
• 48:42
  Madeleine Cleary: I got responses from every single one.
• 48:44
  Madeleine Cleary: Thrilled.
• 48:44
  Madeleine Cleary: They're absolutely thrilled.
• 48:46
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, and so I, you know, gave them an approximate time as well that I would arrive at.
• 48:51
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, so.
• 48:53
  Madeleine Cleary: In the morning, I was like, why do I do this?
• 48:55
  Madeleine Cleary: I've gotta navigate multiple things.
• 48:58
  Madeleine Cleary: And it was busy in traffic, but my gosh, when I got there.
• 49:01
  Madeleine Cleary: So good have, and because you've prearranged it, I think there's like, it's easier, like they can grab the stock, they're not stressed.
• 49:09
  Madeleine Cleary: Um.
• 49:10
  Madeleine Cleary: Usually you have chats with, with one of the booksellers for a, you know, I wouldn't go over 10 minutes.
• 49:15
  Madeleine Cleary: Five to 10 minutes is ideal.
• 49:17
  Madeleine Cleary: They're really busy people, so you don't wanna, you know, be too much in their space.
• 49:21
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, but we don't necessarily talk about my book, we just talk about books in general.
• 49:26
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, but make sure you, you.
• 49:28
  Madeleine Cleary: Put, give them your, your short pitch.
• 49:31
  Madeleine Cleary: So for me, it's Jack the Ripper in Melbourne meets Jane Austen and, and inspired by my great-great-great grandmother's brothel.
• 49:39
  Madeleine Cleary: Sometimes they'll, that will spark some questions and so then you can go back and forth.
• 49:43
  Madeleine Cleary: But that keeps it nice.
• 49:44
  Madeleine Cleary: And just so you're not there just to be a salesperson, you just saying like this, I'm here to help you be able to sell this book in future.
• 49:51
  Madeleine Cleary: If they wanna take a photo, always say yes.
• 49:54
  Madeleine Cleary: They can pop it on their socials.
• 49:55
  Madeleine Cleary: Sure, that's fine.
• 49:56
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, I always as well, and I keep a running list on my phone and notes.
• 50:01
  Madeleine Cleary: 'cause especially in your early days when your book comes out, you're meeting so many people, so many booksellers.
• 50:06
  Madeleine Cleary: I will always write down their name and what bookshop they're from and if, if it helps, I write like a little description of who they, of what they look like.
• 50:15
  Madeleine Cleary: So in future, when I go back.
• 50:18
  Madeleine Cleary: I can just check their name if they're the store owner, I write down if they're the owner, owner.
• 50:23
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, and that has saved me on many occasions.
• 50:26
  Madeleine Cleary: So I highly recommend everyone do that.
• 50:28
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 50:28
  Madeleine Cleary: And it just, you know, like you can't remember everyone's name because particularly at those bookseller events when you're meeting so many people, but, um, you know, it's, I think it's nice to be able to re like, bring it up and, and, you know, they know who you are generally, but you know, you have to, you should be able to sort of, yeah.
• 50:45
  Madeleine Cleary: Talk to them.
• 50:46
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, uh, and so, okay, so you're in the bookshop.
• 50:49
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, so I had this great experience.
• 50:51
  Madeleine Cleary: I went on my way back from my event to a beautiful bookshop.
• 50:55
  Madeleine Cleary: I highly recommend if you're on the morning to Peninsula, visit Stories by Sea and Mount Eliza.
• 50:59
  Madeleine Cleary: It's a brand new shop and Sonya is the owner and she's absolutely lovely.
• 51:04
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, and.
• 51:05
  Madeleine Cleary: And she said,'cause I'd emailed before and stuff, her and her daughter were reading the book together.
• 51:11
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, because I'd emailed and said I was gonna come and visit, and she was really enjoying it.
• 51:15
  Madeleine Cleary: And she's like, now I can sell this.
• 51:18
  Madeleine Cleary: To everyone.
• 51:19
  Madeleine Cleary: So, you know, if I hadn't have made that like mm-hmm.
• 51:22
  Madeleine Cleary: Slight detour to go there mm-hmm.
• 51:24
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, then, you know, you're just, you're just having that really nice interaction with someone and she's like, the fact that you've made the effort to come out here, um, and she's like, a few other authors have done that.
• 51:34
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, Kate Milton Hall was one of them.
• 51:36
  Madeleine Cleary: She's really good at this.
• 51:38
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, she's like, now I'm, I, I, I will hand sell this book now.
• 51:42
  Tina Strachan: Oh, that's awesome.
• 51:43
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 51:43
  Madeleine Cleary: Which is amazing.
• 51:44
  Madeleine Cleary: So, um, yeah, I, I, I mean, this to me is the best part of being an author is the ability to go into a bookshop talk with bookish, bookish people.
• 51:53
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 51:53
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, and if you sell a book, if you don't, if they have your book in stock, if they don't, that's okay.
• 51:58
  Madeleine Cleary: Just be natural and reassure them that that's totally fine.
• 52:01
  Madeleine Cleary: That you're just here, here as part of the community.
• 52:04
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 52:05
  Tina Strachan: That's.
• 52:06
  Tina Strachan: Incredible advice.
• 52:07
  Tina Strachan: Thanks Madeleine.
• 52:08
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, I did, you know, I did just recently, um, or probably last month, do just email, um, all the bookstores within like, about a two hour drive from my home.
• 52:18
  Tina Strachan: And I, I have to say, and I live on the Gold Coast, so we actually don't have a lot of independence here on the Gold Coast.
• 52:25
  Tina Strachan: So it was sort of the bigger chains.
• 52:26
  Tina Strachan: I was kinda like, am I gonna hear anything?
• 52:28
  Tina Strachan: And then I just sort of had to go, you know, further out.
• 52:31
  Tina Strachan: Um.
• 52:32
  Tina Strachan: And I couldn't believe it before I'd even gone through my list of, uh, bookstores that I wanted to contact that day.
• 52:39
  Tina Strachan: I was already getting replies back.
• 52:41
  Tina Strachan: And so I was really, I was just really surprised and, but like really spurred on by that as well.
• 52:47
  Tina Strachan: And, and it definitely built some confidence to go in and, um, and they, that's, these guys are booksellers, they love meeting real life authors, you know, as well.
• 52:56
  Tina Strachan: Um, yeah, taking a photo and, and all those sorts of things.
• 52:59
  Tina Strachan: So yeah, I definitely feel a lot more comfortable if I've given a time and a date and all those sort of things of, of when I'm gonna.
• 53:06
  Tina Strachan: But
• 53:06
  Madeleine Cleary: even if not, because if you're in the shop and you see your book and you're just having to stop in, you know, randomly, you just didn't preplan it.
• 53:14
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 53:15
  Madeleine Cleary: Don't ever walk away.
• 53:16
  Madeleine Cleary: Don't walk away, go up.
• 53:18
  Madeleine Cleary: Because a signed book will sell and they'll generally not return assigned book as well.
• 53:25
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, because you know that that's something that's really, really special for the book shop.
• 53:30
  Madeleine Cleary: So the more books that you can sign within that 12 month period before they can, they will return it.
• 53:36
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 53:36
  Madeleine Cleary: You just sign away.
• 53:37
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 53:37
  Madeleine Cleary: You just get your signature and all those books.
• 53:40
  Tina Strachan: Okay.
• 53:40
  Madeleine Cleary: Put your mark on it.
• 53:41
  Madeleine Cleary: Get that sticker on that book, you know, just, just get it out.
• 53:44
  Madeleine Cleary: Go for it.
• 53:46
  Tina Strachan: Okay.
• 53:46
  Tina Strachan: Have you done a cold call yet?
• 53:47
  Tina Strachan: Tash yourself?
• 53:48
  Tina Strachan: Have you wandered in and just, um,
• 53:50
  Natasha Rai: not yet.
• 53:50
  Natasha Rai: Not yet, yet.
• 53:51
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 53:51
  Natasha Rai: Um, I'm just, I know that I feel a lot more comfortable and confident, um, going up for book two, but
• 53:57
  Tina Strachan: yeah,
• 53:57
  Natasha Rai: I, I think.
• 53:59
  Natasha Rai: What I realized is it's very, it's the same thing that you're talking about meds, but for me it's relationships.
• 54:04
  Natasha Rai: Like
• 54:04
  Tina Strachan: mm-hmm.
• 54:04
  Natasha Rai: I, I, that's what I really enjoy, and more and more I'm noticing because I'm not so shy anymore about saying I've even written a book mm-hmm.
• 54:15
  Natasha Rai: When I talk to people and we're just talking about books in general, and then it, it might come up, I'm like, I wrote a book, and they go, oh my gosh.
• 54:21
  Natasha Rai: And then we just talk about it a bit and then we move on.
• 54:23
  Natasha Rai: Like you said, MAD's like, but.
• 54:25
  Natasha Rai: I'm much more comfortable with that.
• 54:27
  Natasha Rai: Like I'd rather just be a massive book nerd and talk about it with another massive book nerd, and then if we get onto it, great.
• 54:34
  Natasha Rai: But it doesn't scare me as much as it once did.
• 54:37
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 54:38
  Tina Strachan: I've, um, okay.
• 54:39
  Tina Strachan: I have, I'm
• 54:40
  Madeleine Cleary: so proud
• 54:41
  Tina Strachan: I'm yet to do that to the one where I, yeah, just a cold call, but I'll let you know what, I'll let you know when I do.
• 54:46
  Tina Strachan: No, I've,
• 54:47
  Madeleine Cleary: you have never cold called at a bookshop before.
• 54:50
  Natasha Rai: I haven't either yet.
• 54:51
  Madeleine Cleary: What?
• 54:51
  Madeleine Cleary: No.
• 54:52
  Madeleine Cleary: You didn't seen because I dragged you remember?
• 54:54
  Natasha Rai: Oh, that's right with you.
• 54:55
  Natasha Rai: I'm not on my own.
• 54:57
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 54:57
  Madeleine Cleary: You of content in Melbourne.
• 54:58
  Madeleine Cleary: They had your books.
• 55:00
  Madeleine Cleary: Out the back as well.
• 55:01
  Madeleine Cleary: Got them out the back.
• 55:02
  Natasha Rai: That's right.
• 55:03
  Madeleine Cleary: Then you sign those books.
• 55:04
  Madeleine Cleary: They're gonna, we put them front and center.
• 55:07
  Madeleine Cleary: We had a great chat with them as
• 55:08
  Natasha Rai: well.
• 55:08
  Natasha Rai: We did.
• 55:09
  Natasha Rai: We did.
• 55:09
  Natasha Rai: We did.
• 55:09
  Natasha Rai: Yes.
• 55:10
  Madeleine Cleary: Oh,
• 55:10
  Tina Strachan: okay.
• 55:11
  Tina Strachan: Oh, maybe we should go on a, a little cold call, drop in bookstore, drop in adventure.
• 55:15
  Tina Strachan: We could
• 55:16
  Natasha Rai: do like a book till tour.
• 55:18
  Madeleine Cleary: Oh my gosh.
• 55:18
  Madeleine Cleary: Signing
• 55:19
  Natasha Rai: books.
• 55:21
  Madeleine Cleary: Remember, remember I cold called a bookshop once and I knew they had some stock, they had like four copies, so um, I was like, oh, I'll just drop in.
• 55:28
  Madeleine Cleary: Could not find them.
• 55:29
  Madeleine Cleary: But then I found them in like the overflow, beneath the shelf, like they were all stacked and there was books on top of it as well, so no one would ever have found it.
• 55:38
  Madeleine Cleary: Oh.
• 55:39
  Madeleine Cleary: So anyway, I dragged them all out and said, Hey, I'll, I'm the author, I'll sign these.
• 55:43
  Madeleine Cleary: They're like, yeah, no worries.
• 55:44
  Madeleine Cleary: Sign them all.
• 55:45
  Madeleine Cleary: And then I checked the stock a week later.
• 55:47
  Madeleine Cleary: All sold.
• 55:48
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 55:49
  Natasha Rai: Amazing.
• 55:49
  Tina Strachan: Because they would've let, they put, they put them
• 55:50
  Madeleine Cleary: in
• 55:50
  Tina Strachan: a good
• 55:50
  Madeleine Cleary: spot then.
• 55:51
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 55:51
  Tina Strachan: You know?
• 55:52
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 55:52
  Tina Strachan: Isn't that so interesting how it just makes the difference?
• 55:55
  Tina Strachan: 'cause I'm sort of the same as you Melan.
• 55:57
  Tina Strachan: I'm s so I'm often, uh, depending on the store, quite often down the bottom, like bottom shelf.
• 56:03
  Tina Strachan: Like no one's, no one's looking down there.
• 56:06
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 56:06
  Tina Strachan: It's, it's tricky.
• 56:07
  Tina Strachan: So placement does play a big role and so that's why when you're ever, you're in a bookstore and you see your friend's book there, make sure you turn it face out so everyone see That's right.
• 56:15
  Madeleine Cleary: And I guess I preface all this though with be polite and kind and considerate.
• 56:22
  Madeleine Cleary: If you're cold calling and the, the bookshop is packed and there's cues and it's Saturday or it's Christmas, don't, don't go and barge your way in and say, I'm an author.
• 56:34
  Madeleine Cleary: Can I sign like that?
• 56:35
  Madeleine Cleary: That's not, I think appropriate.
• 56:37
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 56:37
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 56:37
  Madeleine Cleary: So just.
• 56:39
  Madeleine Cleary: You know, play it.
• 56:40
  Madeleine Cleary: Cool.
• 56:40
  Madeleine Cleary: Maybe that's my top tip.
• 56:41
  Madeleine Cleary: Just play it.
• 56:42
  Madeleine Cleary: Cool.
• 56:43
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 56:44
  Tina Strachan: And'cause they are always so busy, aren't they?
• 56:46
  Tina Strachan: So
• 56:47
  Madeleine Cleary: they're, they they love or, but just, yeah, just be mindful.
• 56:50
  Madeleine Cleary: So yeah,
• 56:51
  Tina Strachan: no, good luck.
• 56:52
  Tina Strachan: Good.
• 56:52
  Tina Strachan: Is that your top tip for today, Madeleine?
• 56:55
  Tina Strachan: Be polite.
• 56:56
  Tina Strachan: Be
• 56:56
  Madeleine Cleary: mindful.
• 56:57
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 56:57
  Tina Strachan: Okay.
• 56:57
  Madeleine Cleary: But also just be shameless, but also mindful.
• 57:01
  Tina Strachan: Be confident.
• 57:02
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 57:03
  Tina Strachan: Okay.
• 57:03
  Tina Strachan: I love that.
• 57:05
  Tina Strachan: Um, and did you have a top tip for today, Tash?
• 57:08
  Natasha Rai: Uh, just the thing that I just was told about.
• 57:12
  Natasha Rai: If you get feedback, if, if you're not sure what to do about it or how to even understand it, putting it in your own words.
• 57:19
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, I like
• 57:20
  Natasha Rai: that was very helpful for me.
• 57:21
  Natasha Rai: Yes.
• 57:22
  Natasha Rai: That's
• 57:22
  Tina Strachan: awesome.
• 57:22
  Tina Strachan: Okay.
• 57:23
  Tina Strachan: Um, okay, so my top tip I had not prepared, but, you know, I think I'm gonna go with, um, my top tip for today is to have a nap.
• 57:31
  Tina Strachan: If
• 57:32
  Natasha Rai: you love it, love it.
• 57:33
  Tina Strachan: For many reasons.
• 57:34
  Tina Strachan: But look, I think we've established that, um, it's be official for your writing practice because whilst you're having an app, you can channel the answers to, uh, your, your plot problems.
• 57:47
  Tina Strachan: And you know, you can justify that to, uh, we give you permission to justify that to your family, to your partner and the children.
• 57:55
  Tina Strachan: Just guys, I'm, I've gotta go.
• 57:58
  Tina Strachan: Work out my plot problems.
• 57:59
  Natasha Rai: Exactly.
• 58:00
  Tina Strachan: Which is by having an app.
• 58:01
  Tina Strachan: Okay.
• 58:02
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 58:02
  Tina Strachan: So,
• 58:03
  Natasha Rai: so, so does, does that mean you could like buy a mattress and make that tax deductible?
• 58:07
  Tina Strachan: Absolutely.
• 58:07
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 58:08
  Tina Strachan: And also some little, like one of those, you know, little eye masks.
• 58:11
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, maybe some.
• 58:13
  Tina Strachan: Hey,
• 58:13
  Madeleine Cleary: do you reckon is chocolate tax deductible?
• 58:16
  Madeleine Cleary: I mean,
• 58:16
  Natasha Rai: that's, oh.
• 58:17
  Natasha Rai: I wish I'm gonna ask my accountant.
• 58:20
  Natasha Rai: That's an excellent question.
• 58:22
  Tina Strachan: If you buy it while you're on a writing retreat.
• 58:24
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 58:25
  Tina Strachan: It's, it's all while you're away on a conference.
• 58:29
  Tina Strachan: Yes, absolutely.
• 58:31
  Tina Strachan: All right, great.
• 58:31
  Tina Strachan: What tips today, ladies?
• 58:33
  Tina Strachan: Um, so incredible chatting with you.
• 58:35
  Tina Strachan: Again, thank you for the updates and I can't wait to hear the rest of our interviews for this month before we chat again.
• 58:42
  Madeleine Cleary: Thanks, Tina.
• 58:42
  Madeleine Cleary: Thanks Tina.
• 58:44
  Madeleine Cleary: Bye.
• 58:52
  Tina Strachan: Thank you for listening to the book Deal podcast.
• 58:54
  Tina Strachan: We're able to bring you these weekly writerly chats because of our amazing patrons.
• 59:00
  Tina Strachan: Join the TBD family by becoming a member of our Patreon community at patreon.com\thebookdealpodcast.
• 59:08
  Tina Strachan: And if you love the pod, please give us a rating or review.
• 59:12
  Tina Strachan: And don't forget to follow us on Instagram and Facebook.