Latest / I Am Wiser Podcast with Dr. Laura Purdy / Tomorrow Might Be Better, You Just Don’t Know Yet

Transcript

Tomorrow Might Be Better, You Just Don’t Know Yet · I Am Wiser Podcast with Dr. Laura Purdy

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: The amount of times that we are wrong about things we're certain about, embrace the fact that you're wrong most of the time as like a good thing.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: You don't know that tomorrow's gonna come.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: It could.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'll give you that.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: But you don't know it for sure.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, I think a lot of people struggle with having hope, not because they can't imagine that tomorrow could be good, but because they can't let go of the certainty that it won't be good.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the I Am Wiser Podcast, where the biggest questions in healthcare and wellness meet the collective wisdom of industry leaders and innovators.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Dr.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: Laura Burdy, and here we explore the intersections of AI, care delivery, telehealth policy, and more through the lens of those who are reshaping healthcare.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: This is not just about theory, it's about lived experience and real industry insights.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: Let's dive in and get wiser together.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to today's episode of the I Am Wiser Podcast with Dr.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: Lara Purdy, where I explore the real stories behind groundbreaking healthcare innovations and the human impact they have on patients and providers.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: On that note, I'm delighted to welcome Johnny Crowder, a survivor, mental health advocate, TEDx speaker, heavy metal musician, and founder of Cope Notes, a revolutionary text-based mental health platform that reaches people in nearly a hundred countries.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: Today, we dive into his journey of resilience, the power of simplicity in mental health, and the small yet profound ways we can all care for our minds and hearts.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thank you for having me.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: You have really good diction.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: Very intentionally enunciate when you speak.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you for noticing.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: I did take voice lessons for many, many years and so have had formal education in diction.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: As you have, I'm sure, as well.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: No, I need I need to hook me up with whoever you worked with.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: Many, many, many years ago.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: Well, in that vein, Johnny, I want to kind of start off by keeping it light.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: Can you tell me you're a musician?
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: So what are you listening to these days?
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: Is there a particular song, or even if it's one that you wrote, that brings you a lot of joy and positivity these days?
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: So, like once a month I get obsessed with a new song.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: It'll just be some song that I hear that grips me, and I'll think, oh, I should listen to that again.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: I'll listen to it again.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: And then, like the next thing I know, I've listened to it a whole flight for two and a half hours.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: I listen to one song over and over again.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: So sometimes it's like a chord progression or a melody, and it's my favorite part of being alive when this happens.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: Is I'll I'll put it in my gratitude journal, like found a new song.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like brings me such joy.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: So the song that is like grabbing my insides and sort of like massaging them right now is uh this song called Hallucinations by Chevelle.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: It is uh I've listened to Chevelle for a long time.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: They just put out a new record.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: The record is if Chevelle's listening, the record is great.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, if Chevelle is not listening, not every song is my favorite on the record, but Hallucinations specifically.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: I've listened to that song 80 times in the last week.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm gonna have to go listen to it because that sounds exciting.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: I I love that.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, Chevelle.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: And if if Chevelle is listening, thank you for listening, Chevelle.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: I no, I I hope they know.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um like that's what's so cool about music is you I mean, even when we put out a new song and people are like, oh, I don't like that song, it's like, okay, we have like 70 other ones.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like, go, it's okay.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: We I'm sure you'll like other ones.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: So you learn not to take it as personally.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's art, right?
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's your art.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: And art is subjective, and there's art out there for everyone, and there's somebody who likes it, and there's somebody who doesn't like it.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: And honestly, that's the approach I'm taking with this podcast as well.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's not for everyone, and if it's not, on you go.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: So fantastic.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well, let's get down to it.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: So the I Am Wiser podcast, the purpose of this podcast is not just to sit around and talk about how amazing your music is, which I'm sure it is.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: And but the point is to talk about a piece of wisdom that we want the people that are listening to this show to take with them in their lives.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it's a piece of wisdom that we've learned the hard way, or maybe it's a piece of wisdom that we've learned through experience.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: But there's a central piece of wisdom that we're going to carry forward.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: So what was your, do you remember, what was your piece of wisdom that you wanted to bring here for us to talk about?
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I've gotten very good at being wrong.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I think there's value in that.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm gonna preface what I share with uh a lot of us are very convinced that we know how things are gonna turn out.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, when I was starting treatment for depression and anxiety, I'd be like, nothing's ever gonna get better.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: I was certain.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like I was Laura, I was I would have bet my life, like, no, it's not gonna get better.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: I know I'm 16, I know everything.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like I was so certain, and uh, I was wrong.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like my life did get better.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: I was wrong about a lot of stuff, and I think uh the amount of times that we are wrong about things we're certain about should be evidence enough that when we think tomorrow's gonna suck, or oh, my boss is gonna fire me, or this date's not gonna go well, or like all of those what's called automatic negative thought is those protective thoughts that we don't try to think, we just think them.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: They just happen in our brains.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think my piece of wisdom that I've been thinking about lately is like embrace the fact that you're wrong most of the time as like a good thing.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like it is you don't know that tomorrow's gonna suck.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: It could.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'll give you that.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: Tomorrow could suck.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it might, but you don't know it for sure.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, I think a lot of people um struggle with having hope, not because they can't imagine that tomorrow could be good, but because they can't let go of the certainty that it won't be good, you know.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's really encouraging.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's encouraging to think that you could be wrong and you might be wrong.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, maybe that's hopeful to think I could be wrong that tomorrow is going to suck.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, man.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: Think about think about all the people who like are like, oh, I'm never gonna you ever meet someone who like goes through a divorce and they're like, I'm never gonna date again, and I'm never gonna meet anybody.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: And then like five years later, they're in like the healthiest marriage of their life, and you're like, wow, weren't you super wrong?
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I think we should, I think you should celebrate how wrong we are.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's my point.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, congratulations when we get the gift of being wrong about the things we are so certain.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: But you mentioned you were 16.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I could imagine 16, you're looking at what was probably told to you would be a very lengthy and difficult recovery process from a whole slew of diagnoses.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: What got you over the hump as 16-year-old, certain that you were gonna be right about not healing you?
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: How long did it take to get to that point where you realized, no, actually, I I think I think I am gonna get better?
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: It was hard.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, recovery is hard.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I'll just be straight up.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's, I think we have to be real with ourselves about how long the process takes.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: I'm very passionate about that.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um there's this idea that like, I remember when I started a business and I'm like a year in and I'm like, I don't have a Lamborghini.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: What am I doing wrong?
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like, all these young tech gurus are are like, in one year, I built a$10 million business.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's like there's something wrong with me if I didn't do that.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: And then the older I get, I'm like, no, this just is hard.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: It just takes time.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't mean you're doing it wrong.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, recovery, I think what became exciting for me was embracing the impermanence of what I was going through.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: So when I started to, I was prescribed antipsychotic medication when I was 16 years old.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I took that medication for 11 years.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I was like, no.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe a little bit less, maybe it's like a decade.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um still a very long time.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's been for a long time.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I remember thinking, I'm gonna have to take this forever.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like this is just the rest of my life, as I'm and I'm gonna struggle with these things forever, and everything felt so permanent.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I remember discussing with my psychiatrist at the time, I was like, is it possible to wean off of this medication over time?
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: And she's like, Yeah.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, why have we never discussed this in like a decade of me working with you?
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: So it made me excited, those little moments where I'm like, wow, there's there's a chance that in my future I won't uh be, I won't be as debilitated as I am now.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: And it was those little glimmers of hope that like the phrase I use to illustrate this whole thing that we're talking about is tomorrow might be better.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: Tomorrow might be better because it's technically always true.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like tomorrow might be better.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: There's a chance that tomorrow could be better than today.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I really clung to that instead of the opposite spiral, which is everything just keeps getting worse and worse and worse.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's not always true.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's sometimes true, but not always.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: It can be true, but not always.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's really empowering when I hear you say things like tomorrow might be better.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that is, in my opinion, a lot easier.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's a more, it's easier to swallow than the overly positive.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um some people use the word toxic positivity, where it's always like exclamation marks and and smiley face emojis everywhere.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: That can be a lot for people to digest if they're in a place where they're struggling with mental illness or they're trying to be in recovery.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: It sounds like the wisdom that you're giving is easier to feel, easier to integrate when you're in a place like that.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, last so last year I I lost my home in a hurricane.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: And at the same time, I was going through a gnarly breakup.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and then I totaled my car.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: It was just like the perfect uh sequence of like some of the most difficult things I've ever experienced in my life, back to back to back.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember I went to PF Chang's with my mom, and she was like, You're just not looking at things positively.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, what are you talking about?
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like my whole life is on fire.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: And it was like there was this part of me that she was saying, like, one day you're like, you're gonna, and I'm like, you don't know that.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: And it was like, I there was this part of me that was so it was like, let me, let me just be upset that this is happening.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I think tomorrow might be better.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like you said, the language is like, yeah, it, dude, tomorrow could suck even worse than today.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't have any guarantee, I don't have a crystal ball, but you I encourage you to at least be open to the idea that like maybe it's like neutral, maybe it's the same amount of bad as today, maybe it's slightly less bad.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I've really been clinging to that over the past year, like getting over that and all the other things in my life, like just being open to uh the potential of tomorrow, not in a way that's like, I can guarantee you or your money back, you're gonna live in a mansion because you lost your old place and they're gonna move you in with Mr.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: Deeds.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: No, uh, but you could say, like, is there a chance that you move into somewhere that you like even more than your last place?
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, yes, that's yes, it is possible.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: I say begrudgingly, but it's open to it's it's me being open to that possibility that helps me not feel so doomed by present circumstance.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like, yes, I suppose it could be.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: That was my whole attitude and treatment as a teenager, by the way.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I guess you're actually it's still sort of my attitude now.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like if I talk to my pastor, he's like, have you considered this?
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, Yes, I know you're right.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: Being positive.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: But you're keeping it real, right?
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like you're not out there demonstrating to people some unrealistic standard.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: You're very, very real in the fact that even though you're someone who does have a positive positivity platform and a mental health company, which we're gonna talk about in a second, and who helps mentor other people towards a more positive mindset, you still struggle with the groaning and the eye rolling and the, oh, my my home was destroying a hurricane.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's very real.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's very relatable.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: Laura, I will always do what I'm supposed to, but I won't always be happy about doing it.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, do you know what I'm saying?
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm not gonna skip the gym, but I might drag my feet on my way to the gym, you know?
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: But you'll complain about it while you do it.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's very relatable, but you still do it anyways.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's that's what's important is the action, yeah, not the attitude, right?
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's the action.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: And the attitude, but also the action.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: So, okay, so let's that's a great foundation for us to j to dive in and talk a little bit more about cope notes.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think this is really interesting to me.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm hoping you can tell me just a little bit on the high level of how does it work?
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: What are you doing for people, patients?
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: I would call them patients.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what you call them, but what are you doing for people that's so innovative with cope notes in the mental health space?
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the the it says on our website, like we text you, you feel better.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's that's how it works.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: And basically that what we're doing is we're taking like, you know, a therapy session might take an hour.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of people are like, I don't have an hour, even if they do.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, some people actually don't, but some people do, and they say they don't, which was me uh for a long time.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so we take that hour, we chop it up into bite-sized pieces, and then we deliver it in non-clinical settings.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: So this is like while you're at work, while you're at school, while you're at home, you're sitting on the toilet, your text message pops up, and it's like just a couple sentences.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: And these are micro interventions that contain health education content, like a psychology fact or journaling prompt, an exercise that's written by a real peer with lived experience, not chat GPT, like someone who understands what it feels like to go through this stuff firsthand, reviewed by clinicians, based on proven psychology, but just like a five or 10 second interaction.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: And what's really cool is over time, these randomly timed interruptions actually are proven to train the brain to combat stress, anxiety, depression.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like bite-sized mental health interventions uh that don't require the same lift or time or attention as other things.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: And over time, they're kind of rewiring or re-engineering your thought pathways.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not a psychologist, but rewiring those mental pathways that you get stuck in and help you make new ones.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's it's basically your brain has a default way of thinking, and there is a physical component to that.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's like synapses are close together, and that means that they fire together often.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: So what we're trying to do is pry apart those synapses associated with negative thought and like smush forward the synapses associated with, yeah, you can tell I went to school for psych.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: Smush is a clinical term.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: Smush.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: You smush the synapses together associated with positive thought.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: So, like when I was growing up, negative thought came so naturally to me.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: I was good at it.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like, if you gave me, if you were like, I won the lottery, I'd be like, Lori, you're gonna be crushed by taxes.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, how did you even pick that negative thing out of this positive thing?
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: So now I'm the opposite, where like I went through, like I lost my, I'm standing outside my home.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like the the wreckage, just an uninhabitable, like the building collapsed, like the roof cave in and everything.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm standing outside of my home and I'm like, whoa, good thing my mom has room for an air mattress in her office.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and it's a good one.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: It didn't feel like I was grasping it, was like my brain naturally did that.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's what we're trying to do is life is going to be difficult flat out.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: What we're trying to do is get your brain to not help life make your life difficult.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: Instead, get your brain to help you.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: To not help make your life difficult.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: That makes sense.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: That makes sense.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: I remember um one of the jobs I had in the military.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: I worked at the Warrior Transition Battalion with soldiers that were coming out, and their therapists used to talk about stinking thinking.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: Get rid of the stinking thinking.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, man.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so you're you're getting the stinking thinking out of there and replacing it with more because you have to think something, right?
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: You're going to think something, whether it's stinking or positive, right?
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: So you have to think something.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: It might as well be helpful and productive.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's this, there's this concept in uh Buddhism.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I'm a Jesus person, but I grew up reading about uh Buddhism and Taoism, and was fascinated by all of those worldviews and some of the principles that they've taught me I still carry today, including there's this principle of the second arrow in Buddhism.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so the the imagery is that the first arrow is pain.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like you are you are struck with an arrow.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: You did nothing uh to you're just walking through the forest and you're struck with an arrow.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: That's pain.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: That means your your home blows down in a storm or something like that.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, dude, you didn't, it's not like you did something, you forgot to pay your mortgage or something.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, no, you a storm happened.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: The second arrow is fired into the exact same place the first arrow was shot, and that second arrow is suffering.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: And the Buddhist principle is trying to illustrate that we fire the second arrow.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: We don't control the first arrow.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: The first arrow hits us, that's something difficult happened.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: The second arrow is the way that we think about that first arrow, and oftentimes the thing that people struggle with is not the pain, it's the suffering.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: So you lose your house, that's tough.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: That's tough, flat out.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: But if you obsess for months or years, well, that's what I get.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I literally thought this, Laura.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: I thought that's what I get for choosing that corner unit.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: Because if I would have chosen a different unit, the tornado wouldn't have hit it because some of the other units weren't affected.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, what am I talking about?
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm blaming myself for this.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: So blaming yourself.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to really help people minimize suffering and instead enlist their brain as an ally, not an enemy.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, that's fascinating.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm wondering, and I I know we have to protect people's privacy, but I can only imagine how impactful, deeply impactful this must be on an individual level.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I was reading that you are serving many, many countries across the world.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have, of course, keeping it as private as possible?
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have any examples or stories of people that you know that your efforts, whether it's through Copenhotes or whether it's through the music or whether it's through somebody just DMing you on Instagram, I don't even care where wherever it comes from.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: But do you have any examples that you're able to share of real human impactful people that have been helped by your mission, platform, and purpose?
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, this is what keeps me going when it gets difficult, which is like all the time.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you build a business and there's there's days where you're like, why why don't I just get in the why don't I just work at Target?
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: It'd be so much easier.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't have nearly as much stress or work to do.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and these these stories that people share with me definitely keep me going.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: And there's one that I I refer to often.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there was a guy who sent me a Facebook message about how he had months prior uh decided that he was going to end his own life, and he climbed to the top of a uh like a casino, and he climbs up on the ledge uh to jump, and the ledge is uh do you know the type of concrete that has shells in it?
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's like that.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't know what it's called.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but sometimes I see it composite, yeah, sort of a yeah.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so he's like climbing up on the ledge and he sees that it's paved, like the ledge is this concrete that has these shells in it, and he remembers some message about uh how if you go to the beach and you aren't looking for shells, you don't really find any spiral shells.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: But then if you go specifically looking for spiral shells, you seem to find a whole bunch.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so it was some kind of message about like uh looking for something intentionally increases the odds that you will find it.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so if you seem to be finding a lot of one thing, you should ask yourself, is there some part of me that's trying to find this, or can I try to find something else instead?
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: And he was like, Wow, I wonder if I could be more intentional about like trying to find reasons to live, because I've been really finding a lot of reasons not to live.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: So, anyway, it was just this message about seashells.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: That's it.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like the microest of micro interventions.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: And he pops down um from the ledge, calls his mom, his mom takes him to rehab.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and he sent me that message after rehab.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, wait a message from like way prior about seashells and the the ledge just happened to be paved with this.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: And that to me, to me, it's not the magic of like a cope notes text message, it's the magic of the brain, like the brain's ability to recall and um assimilate information into present moments, the brain's ability to like take, you know, you have this giant data file in your brain of every interaction and experience you've ever had.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: And then when you have a new experience, you comb through that data file for relevant stuff.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: And what's really cool is like a seashell didn't save this guy's life.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like he did.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: His he looked back in that file, his brain did that for him to save him.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: And to me, I'm like, that's all Cope Notes is doing is trying to put good files into that file cabinet so you have stuff to reference.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's it.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: What a beautiful story.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: That is a really beautiful story.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: But you're right.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: You didn't do it.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: The seashells didn't do it.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: He did it.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, dude.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: He did it, right?
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: You gave him the tools, the files, the equipment, the hard rewiring of the smushing.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: The smushing of the neurons.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: You helped smush the neurons, but ultimately he was the one that pulled that out, recognized it, and then chose differently.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: Huge.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: Which reminds me, it takes it back to your initial piece of wisdom.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: What if he was wrong?
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: What if he was wrong about um, you know, his um his next day not being great?
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: You can be wrong, especially when it comes to negativity and the bad things that might happen in the future.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: That's a real world example of how that came into play in a really impactful way for this guy.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: What if what if he was wrong about whatever reasons it was that he wanted to end his own life?
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: And he was, he was wrong.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: Because he lived and now he's alive, writing you after rehab.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: That's really sweet.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: So we talked about Cove Notes.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: I also am very interested in hearing about what it's like for you in the heavy metal industry.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you have chosen to affiliate yourself with a genre of music that is not stereotypically known for being the most happy, positive, human-centric, pro-mental health, which I love that actually.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: I love that about your brand and your band and your mission.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm just curious, what is that like for you?
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, how do how's your reputation?
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: Do people love it?
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: Is it catching on?
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: Are other bands in your genre also saying like hugs save lives?
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, what what is that like for you?
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's a mixed bag, dude.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's not like I I wish I could tell the story.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like when I started doing this, every band that we toured with was like, I feel so inspired by you, Johnny.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm gonna change what I say on stage.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: And that does happen.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like we've toured with bands that are like, I want to be more intentional about this, and this matters to me.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but lots of band or bands are like, that's kind of corny.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, punch somebody in the face.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like they're like, they're like, we're here to be like, I want to see some violence on stage.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: And like some people are like that, and they think that what I do is corny.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think that having a microphone and telling people to hurt each other is corny.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: So like we both have our own opinions.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I'm best friends with these people, by the way.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: So like we can have completely different viewpoints.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I basically I'm like, yeah, I just hope that uh we go we play before you uh so that by the time you're telling people to hurt each other, they're pretty calm and they say, I don't know, I kind of like these people now.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I I care so much about I care so much about uh leveraging whatever platform God has given me for the benefit of the people that I'm serving.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: So what I learned is like if I'm on stage at a metal festival, there's a couple thousand kids there, and I say jump, Laura, everybody jumps.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: If I say everybody get low, low, low, I'm gonna do this at the show that you come to.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody get low, low on the ground.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: And then everybody jump up.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody does it, which means that if you have a microphone, you have authority.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: Not earned, it just means you're loud.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: Your your voice is amplified, so you need to be really careful with what you say into that microphone.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I view that like when I draft social media posts, I literally draft them in a Google Doc.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like I try to be that intentional.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: I like edit it down.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: I try to make sure I'm communicating exactly what I want to communicate.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think like the illustration of a microphone is you have authority in this circumstance.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: You have a microphone, and whatever you say, people are likely to do.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: So if I say this world is gonna hurt you, don't help it hurt you.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: I want you to take good care of yourself.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: I don't, I think if you have an opportunity to not drink alcohol tonight, and in that way you're sticking up for yourself in a world that's not sticking up for you, then I want that for you.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: I want you to experience that freedom, even if just for one night um I get so passionate about leveraging my platform for that.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: And if it doesn't mesh perfectly with heavy metal, that doesn't bother me because I love heavy metal.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: I never want to leave the genre.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's awesome.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: Hugs, not drugs.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, fantastic.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: So hugs, not drugs.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I think that's great.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: I, you know, one of the things that is I am passionate about working in healthcare is I have seen abuse of power in people who have, I call it conveyed authority.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: It is not earned authority, it's conveyed because of their position or their title or their role or their existence.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: And there are a lot of people out there who take advantage of or exploit that authority to the people that are either subordinate to them or following them or looking up to them.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: We see that a lot in healthcare, unfortunately.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I I agree with you completely.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: If you have authority and if you have an audience and you have a microphone and thousands of kids that are gonna do whatever you tell them to do, it is much more productive to tell them give hugs, not drugs.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, man.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, man.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: And you find out real quick that people listen because we we've toured to somebody who's like, put somebody in the hospital, and then like an ambulance comes.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, and they're like, I can't believe people did that.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, you told them to do that.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like, don't pretend like you don't have a role here.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like you contributed to the outcome of this thing here.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: Well, just a couple more minutes left.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to touch on the mental health aspect one more time because I'm a doctor, I work in healthcare, um, I work mostly through telemedicine, and we see a lot of mental health issues, diagnoses, problems.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it is rampant all throughout the country.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: And you know this.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of people feel broken, right?
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: When they have problems with their mental health.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: They feel like they're broken.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: They feel like they need fixing.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: They feel like there's something wrong with them.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: And kind of like you were talking about with the second arrow earlier, the suffering that we put in on top of the pain, I think can be a barrier to even seeking out and starting treatment.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: Even just taking that first step, whether it's through a door or to a virtual therapist or to a doctor, even if they do need prescriptions, not everybody needs them forever, but some people need them to get started.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: So, what advice do you give to people or that can be helpful to people who are at that point where they're so deep in their own suffering and are having trouble making that first step?
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: What do you what do you tell them?
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: I first want to be direct with people.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'm always like, this is not gonna be the easiest thing you ever did.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I think what I also do tell them is like so for me when I started treatment, I all I thought was this isn't fair, and I'm always gonna feel this way.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: And what I need and and I actually thought like this is how everybody must feel.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: And this is how this is like the my peak quality of life.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: This is what's possible for me.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I think what I needed somebody to tell me is you're right and you're wrong.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: You're right that it's not fair.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody deserves what you lost the genetic lottery, and now you have like a a medical condition.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: That's not fair.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: You didn't do anything.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, you know, I'm I was diagnosed with schizophrenia, and I remember thinking, like, what the heck did I do to deserve that?
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, buddy, nothing.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: Nothing, nothing.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: It just it just isn't fair.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I needed somebody to corroborate that in me because I was like trying to find a way to blame myself.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: I felt like, what is wrong with me?
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so broken.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so and it's like I just needed someone to be like, I was like, it's not fair, and I needed someone to be like, you're right, it's not fair.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, Yeah, yeah, I guess you're right.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: And then that's right.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: The other thing I needed to hear was, this will not be easy, but you'll never regret it.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: This will not be the easiest thing you've ever done, but you'll never look back and say, dang, I wish I never got healthier.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like, dang, I wish I never tried.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: No, you will learn so much about yourself.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I tell people it's difficult, but it's important.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I tell people, like, I I will never regret any effort that I've put into getting healthier because it pays dividends for the rest of your life.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I think acknowledging that it isn't fair and acknowledging that it's hard is really important, but then telling somebody like, there's a version of life that exists where you don't feel the way that you feel right now.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna do whatever I can to try, even if you're lying to me, I still want to try to get there to see if it's true.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: Might as well.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: You might as well.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: I, you know, that's a beautiful piece of wisdom.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: I like the last one you put there.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: Is that there is a version of reality that exists where you're not suffering so much.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: You're right.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's not fair.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_01: That's very validating.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's not fair.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't have to be fair, and you will never regret taking that first step.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, man.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: You'll never regret it.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_01: That's great.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for sharing all that with me.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: Well, let's go ahead and wrap it up.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: If you don't mind, please share with everyone who's listening.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: Tell us where we can find information about you as a musician, about cope notes.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: If somebody's needing some help today or they're listening to this and they're feeling like they might be needing some help with their mental health, where can they sign up for cope notes?
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: How do they get started?
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so let's see.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I'll start with music.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: So the band is called Prison.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: We put out a song called Pillar of Salt like a week ago about me going through PTSD treatment.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: So if you want to hear what that sounds like, you're more than welcome to check it out.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then let's see, for Cope Notes, um, if you go to copenotes.com, you can try it for free.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: You can give a subscription to a friend or family member.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we do a lot of partnerships.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: So if you work in healthcare and you're like, I want it for my health system or provider, my kids' school district or whatever, uh, you can go to our website and sign up for all that there.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, if you want to learn about me as a person or book me as a speaker, it's just my name, johnnycrowder.com.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: And then I'm on Facebook, LinkedIn, and my Instagram is at Johnny Crowderlovesy because I do.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: I do.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: Because you do.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Johnny.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: This has been an absolutely wonderful interview, and I really appreciate all the wisdom, all the insights.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for all the good that you're doing for the people who listen to your music, for the people who use your service.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for all the positivity that you're putting into the world, and I look forward to seeing prison next weekend.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I will see you back dab in the middle of the mosh pit.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: I'll be there.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: Sounds good.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: Bye.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: Peace.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for tuning in to the I Am Wiser Podcast, where each episode brings us closer to a wiser, more human approach to healthcare.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_01: If today's conversation inspired you or sparked new ideas, share it with someone who's ready to rethink healthcare.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_01: And if you have a story or innovation that could light the way for others, reach out.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: We'd love to hear from you.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: This space is yours too.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: Don't forget to follow, rate, and review us on your favorite platform.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_01: Until next time, stay curious, stay courageous, and stay wiser.