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Fertility Scandal · The Knife: A True Crime Podcast

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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.
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Speaker 2: The claims and opinions in this podcast are those of
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Speaker 2: the speaker and do not necessarily represent the Knife or
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Speaker 2: Exactly Right Media.
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Speaker 3: My sister, she called me and she said, did you
0:18
Speaker 3: hear about your fertility doctor? She goes, there's something going
0:21
Speaker 3: on with him. It's all over the news. And I'm like, well,
0:24
Speaker 3: what's it about? And she said, well, he's being accused
0:27
Speaker 3: of stealing patients' eggs.
0:44
Speaker 2: Welcome to The Knife. I'm Patia Eaton. Today I'm speaking
0:47
Speaker 2: with a woman named Diane Porter. Diane and her husband
0:51
Speaker 2: sought out fertility treatment to start their family back in
0:53
Speaker 2: the early 1990s. They traveled from their home in Nebraska
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Speaker 2: to see Dr. Ricardo Asch. At the time, he was
1:00
Speaker 2: one of the country's most celebrated fertility doctors. But something
1:04
Speaker 2: deeply disturbing was happening behind closed doors. And as whistleblowers
1:08
Speaker 2: began to speak, a web of alleged fraud and medical
1:12
Speaker 2: misconduct emerged. This is the story of the UCI fertility
1:16
Speaker 2: scandal and the patients who discovered that the people they
1:19
Speaker 2: trusted with their most personal dream may have betrayed them.
1:23
Speaker 2: Let's get into the interview. Hi, Diane. Thank you so
1:29
Speaker 2: much for taking the time to speak with me today.
1:31
Speaker 3: Well, thanks for having me.
1:33
Speaker 2: So I'd love to start out with a little bit,
1:35
Speaker 2: just if you could introduce yourself.
1:38
Speaker 3: Oh, sure. My name's Diane Porter. I live in Nebraska.
1:43
Speaker 3: Been here now 37 years. I originally was born and
1:48
Speaker 3: raised in Southern California, and I have a husband still
1:53
Speaker 3: and three kids. My oldest is seven years older than
1:58
Speaker 3: my twins. So not real close in age, but of
2:01
Speaker 3: course the twins are.
2:03
Speaker 2: Before we get into the whole story, take me back
2:06
Speaker 2: to the chapter of your life just before you contact
2:12
Speaker 2: doctors at UC Irvine. Tell me a little bit about
2:16
Speaker 2: your relationship and your future plans.
2:19
Speaker 3: Oh, okay. Well, my husband, back in 1976, I did
2:22
Speaker 3: not know him then, broke his neck playing football. And
2:27
Speaker 3: we met and decided to marry.
2:31
Speaker 2: Diane's husband is Budge Porter. Budge is a third-generation Nebraska
2:35
Speaker 2: football player. In April of 1976, Budge was 20 years
2:39
Speaker 2: old when during a spring practice for the University of Nebraska,
2:43
Speaker 2: he made a tackle that resulted in a catastrophic spinal
2:46
Speaker 2: cord injury, one that left him paralyzed.
2:49
Speaker 3: He's considered a quadriplegic. He's kind of a unique quadriplegic
2:54
Speaker 3: in that He did have return of some use of
2:58
Speaker 3: his body and muscles, about 10% return. So he is able,
3:03
Speaker 3: through a lot of therapy, be able to drive, work.
3:07
Speaker 3: He could even write. So he came a long way
3:10
Speaker 3: with a lot of work. And I met him about
3:13
Speaker 3: nine years after his injury. And mistakenly, when I first
3:17
Speaker 3: met him, did not realize this was a permanent thing.
3:21
Speaker 3: And I had no clue when I met him that
3:23
Speaker 3: this was something that was not going to get better,
3:25
Speaker 3: that this was as good as it was going to get, actually. So,
3:28
Speaker 3: but he did pretty well with what function he had left.
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Speaker 2: Budge and Diane met in 1984. They fell in love,
3:35
Speaker 2: and in 1989, they got married. They bought a home
3:38
Speaker 2: in Nebraska, and Budge made a successful career for himself
3:41
Speaker 2: as a stockbroker. Budge and Diane knew they wanted to
3:44
Speaker 2: start a family.
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Speaker 3: We knew there'd be difficulty with fertility right from the get-go,
3:50
Speaker 3: right when we got married, because at that time, in 1989,
3:53
Speaker 3: the technology really wasn't there. So we came to the conclusion, well,
3:58
Speaker 3: we won't probably have children. But then later on, as
4:02
Speaker 3: things advanced, we found out that there was a possibility
4:06
Speaker 3: of having children. The technology had grown and matured, and
4:11
Speaker 3: we decided that to look into it with these two
4:14
Speaker 3: doctors that we ended up dealing with to have hopefully
4:18
Speaker 3: a chance to have children.
4:19
Speaker 2: So how did you then go about finding a doctor
4:24
Speaker 2: in Southern California? What led you to Southern California for
4:27
Speaker 2: fertility treatment?
4:29
Speaker 3: Well, my husband did a lot of research and we
4:31
Speaker 3: knew that I had no fertility issues, but we knew
4:35
Speaker 3: we were going to need IVF to get pregnant. And
4:39
Speaker 3: there was a doctor out of St. Louis, Sherman Silver,
4:43
Speaker 3: who worked with Dr. Ash. Dr.
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Speaker 2: Ricardo Ash was one of three doctors leading the Center
4:49
Speaker 2: for Reproductive Health at the University of California at Irvine. Dr.
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Speaker 2: Ash's reputation preceded him. His fertility treatments were at the
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Speaker 2: forefront of this emerging technology and treatment known as IVF,
5:01
Speaker 2: in vitro fertilization. Today, in 2026, I think most of
5:05
Speaker 2: us know what IVF is. In the simplest terms, doctors
5:08
Speaker 2: take an egg and sperm and combine them in a
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Speaker 2: lab to create an embryo. That embryo is transferred into
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Speaker 2: a uterus to try to start a pregnancy. And back
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Speaker 2: in the early 90s, Dr. Ash claimed to have a 40%
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Speaker 2: success rate, which was astonishingly high. And Diane had family
5:24
Speaker 2: in California that they could stay with during the treatment.
5:27
Speaker 2: So she and Budge chose to see Dr. Ash for
5:30
Speaker 2: their IVF treatment. they felt confident they were being treated
5:33
Speaker 2: by the best of the best. In the early 1990s
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Speaker 2: and today, a typical IVF cycle begins with follicle stimulation,
5:40
Speaker 2: helping a woman's body to produce a higher volume of
5:42
Speaker 2: eggs for the egg retrieval. And this is timed up
5:45
Speaker 2: with her natural cycle. But Dr. Ash, he was doing
5:49
Speaker 2: things a little differently.
5:51
Speaker 3: And I initially had to go out and be checked
5:53
Speaker 3: by Dr. Ash and made sure everything was okay on
5:57
Speaker 3: my end. And then we were scheduled into the series
6:02
Speaker 3: with all these other people where the two doctors come
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Speaker 3: together at UC Irvine and would do the procedures necessary
6:10
Speaker 3: for us to have the IVF.
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Speaker 2: And so they would find multiple patients at once before
6:17
Speaker 2: they would do these procedures, like sort of batch treat people?
6:22
Speaker 3: Yeah, a whole group comes in and they concentrate on
6:26
Speaker 3: that group. during the series. And gosh, there's quite a
6:30
Speaker 3: few of them. I don't remember how many exactly, but
6:33
Speaker 3: there was quite a few of us. It was kind
6:35
Speaker 3: of chaotic, if I remember, and just a lot going on,
6:39
Speaker 3: a lot, you know, men and women there together doing
6:42
Speaker 3: those procedures.
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Speaker 2: And what is the first step of your treatment?
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Speaker 3: Well, they basically put you on the hormones and the shots,
6:51
Speaker 3: and you get your whole regimen And you start those.
6:55
Speaker 3: They're basically trying to stimulate your ovaries to get as
6:58
Speaker 3: many eggs as possible. You go in about, I think
7:01
Speaker 3: it was about every day. They're checking you, making sure
7:04
Speaker 3: everything's going well. I had quite a reaction to the medications.
7:10
Speaker 3: All of a sudden, within a few days, I was
7:12
Speaker 3: swelling up huge. I gained like 20 pounds. And, you know,
7:16
Speaker 3: you've never been through it before. So I'm like, is
7:18
Speaker 3: this normal, not normal?
7:20
Speaker 2: Looking back, the symptoms Diane described are an indicator that
7:24
Speaker 2: she was experiencing something called ovarian hyperstimulation syndrome, which happens
7:29
Speaker 2: when a person responds too strongly to fertility drugs. A
7:33
Speaker 2: healthy 29-year-old woman the age Diane was at the time
7:36
Speaker 2: typically has between 10 and 15 follicles per cycle. Each
7:40
Speaker 2: one of those follicles contains an immature egg. In a
7:43
Speaker 2: natural cycle, one follicle releases one egg. But in an
7:47
Speaker 2: egg retrieval, the doctor attempts to remove each egg from
7:50
Speaker 2: each follicle, even in a mature egg, because each egg
7:54
Speaker 2: they can retrieve ups the chances that they'll be able
7:56
Speaker 2: to produce a viable embryo.
7:59
Speaker 3: And basically they hyperstimulated me and I went in for
8:05
Speaker 3: one of my final ultrasounds before they did the egg
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Speaker 3: retrieval and they saw as many as 60 eggs.
8:11
Speaker 2: And do you do the retrieval on the same trip?
8:16
Speaker 3: Yes. Yeah, everything was done on the same trip.
8:18
Speaker 2: Do you recall how long that trip was?
8:20
Speaker 3: It was about a three-week process.
8:24
Speaker 2: And how did the retrieval end up going?
8:27
Speaker 3: Well, once I had seen the day before that I
8:31
Speaker 3: had all these eggs, I was thinking, wow, I'm going
8:33
Speaker 3: to get so many eggs. It's going to be incredible.
8:36
Speaker 3: We'll have a lot of chances. And, you know, it's
8:39
Speaker 3: so expensive. So it was like, well, this is good.
8:42
Speaker 3: I didn't feel real great. I remember my sister had
8:45
Speaker 3: to go and buy me some maternity clothes because I
8:48
Speaker 3: put on like probably 20 pounds in a few days.
8:51
Speaker 3: Like I said, I was all swollen and a mess.
8:54
Speaker 3: The egg retrieval went fine. We didn't get as many
8:57
Speaker 3: eggs as I was anticipating. And Dr. Ash, even at
9:01
Speaker 3: the time, turned to me. The night before, about midnight,
9:05
Speaker 3: you had to take a shot that's supposed to help
9:07
Speaker 3: the eggs release from the follicles. And he said, did
9:11
Speaker 3: you take your shot? And I'm like, well, of course
9:13
Speaker 3: I took my shot. That's all I'm here to do.
9:16
Speaker 3: And he goes, well, we weren't able to get as
9:18
Speaker 3: many as we thought. And I'm like, that's crazy. And,
9:22
Speaker 3: you know, it's almost like he was trying to blame me.
9:25
Speaker 3: And I'm like, no, I did it. Of course, you know,
9:27
Speaker 3: this is all we're focused on right now. Why wouldn't
9:30
Speaker 3: I take the shot? But at the time he said
9:33
Speaker 3: I had about 20, I think he said 22, 23 eggs,
9:35
Speaker 3: which still was a lot.
9:38
Speaker 2: And you had seen upwards of 60 on your ultrasounds.
9:42
Speaker 3: Yeah, the day before. So that was quite a few,
9:46
Speaker 3: less than I thought I'd get. Yeah. I was so
9:48
Speaker 3: bloated and so miserable. I even questioned if we should,
9:52
Speaker 3: once we had the embryos, if I should even do
9:55
Speaker 3: the putting the embryos back in because I was such
9:59
Speaker 3: a mess. And the procedure went smooth. I was fine. And,
10:03
Speaker 3: you know, no big issue there at all. It just
10:06
Speaker 3: went as planned. Just was surprised I didn't get as
10:09
Speaker 3: many eggs as I had thought I would.
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Speaker 2: During her three-week stay in California, Diane had gone through
10:15
Speaker 2: follicle stimulation and egg retrieval and a multiple embryo transfer,
10:20
Speaker 2: where multiple embryos created in the fertility clinic with her
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Speaker 2: eggs and her husband's sperm were transferred into her uterus.
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Speaker 2: It was a grueling and uncomfortable process, and it was
10:30
Speaker 2: extraordinarily expensive.
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Speaker 3: I think it was up to about, I think it
10:36
Speaker 3: was like $ 30, 000 to $ 40, 000.
10:38
Speaker 2: Oh, wow.
10:39
Speaker 3: To do it. We had to, like, take a second
10:41
Speaker 3: mortgage on the house to pay for it. Yeah, it
10:45
Speaker 3: was a lot. All the office visits and follow-ups and
10:49
Speaker 3: egg retrieval. So it was very expensive.
10:53
Speaker 2: I read every article I could find about UCI and Dr.
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Speaker 2: Ricardo Ashe. And for reasons we'll get into, Diane Porter
11:00
Speaker 2: is named in those articles. They say she paid $ 40, 000.
11:03
Speaker 2: To put that into context, $ 40, 000 in 1991 would be
11:08
Speaker 2: equivalent to $ 98, 000 today. And so after your retrieval, you
11:15
Speaker 2: go home, you go back to Nebraska?
11:17
Speaker 3: Yes. Well, they had the embryos before I left, and
11:21
Speaker 3: they actually inserted five before I left.
11:24
Speaker 2: What did it feel like to be waiting to find
11:28
Speaker 2: out if you were pregnant?
11:30
Speaker 3: Oh. it's such a difficult time. I mean, you're so
11:35
Speaker 3: hopeful and you put so much into it mentally, physically, financially.
11:40
Speaker 3: So yes, it's a lot. And I just, you know,
11:43
Speaker 3: you're trying to be calm and be in the best
11:46
Speaker 3: state of mind and have it happen. And you're so hopeful,
11:50
Speaker 3: but you know, it's just so out of your hands,
11:52
Speaker 3: you know, you're just, you know, hoping and praying. And
11:56
Speaker 3: then you're just basically a waiting game to see if
11:58
Speaker 3: anything happened.
12:00
Speaker 2: Transferring five embryos would be unheard of today. I doubt
12:04
Speaker 2: you could find a doctor who would do it. But
12:07
Speaker 2: in the 1990s, things were different. In 1991, it was
12:10
Speaker 2: far more common to transfer fresh embryos versus frozen embryos.
12:14
Speaker 2: But Diane and Budge did freeze their remaining embryos, still
12:17
Speaker 2: hoping to use them in the future. Did you then
12:21
Speaker 2: take an at-home test?
12:23
Speaker 3: I went in to the doctor and had a pregnancy
12:26
Speaker 3: test done. And unfortunately, it did not work. We were unsuccessful.
12:31
Speaker 3: So it was tough. It's tough on a marriage. It's
12:34
Speaker 3: tough on everybody around you. And everybody was very supportive,
12:38
Speaker 3: of course, but it was very mentally exhausting.
12:44
Speaker 2: So when you had a pregnancy test done back in
12:47
Speaker 2: Nebraska and learned that your embryo transfer was unsuccessful, did
12:51
Speaker 2: you then contact Dr. Ash and what did he say?
12:54
Speaker 3: Yes, they want to, you know, know if it's successful
12:58
Speaker 3: or not. So we contact him, let him know. Then
13:00
Speaker 3: they want to know if you want to come back
13:02
Speaker 3: and try it again, because we did have embryos still there.
13:05
Speaker 3: So we waited a little while and let me get
13:09
Speaker 3: to feeling better. And we wanted to stick with it. And,
13:13
Speaker 3: you know, we had the embryos there waiting, so frustrated. And,
13:19
Speaker 3: you know, financially, we had no insurance for it. So,
13:22
Speaker 3: you know, we had to kind of save up again
13:24
Speaker 3: to try it again. kind of thing and just not
13:28
Speaker 3: having much luck whatsoever with Dr. Ash.
13:32
Speaker 2: So how many transfers did you end up doing with Dr.
13:35
Speaker 3: Ash? I believe I did three.
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Speaker 2: Three transfers. Wow. So flying to Southern California, flying home
13:43
Speaker 2: to Nebraska and waiting, flying back and doing it over again.
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Speaker 3: Yeah. It was kind of like my job at the time.
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Speaker 3: You know, you're just kind of focus on it so much.
13:55
Speaker 3: I mean, that's all we kind of thought about and
13:56
Speaker 3: we did. And it was, like I said, very long
14:00
Speaker 3: and stressful and expensive.
14:03
Speaker 2: Yeah. And with infertility, you know, if you share it
14:06
Speaker 2: with friends and family, it's like, yeah, it's amazing to
14:08
Speaker 2: have that support. But then you have people who are
14:12
Speaker 2: with good intentions waiting to hear if something was successful
14:15
Speaker 2: or not. And you have to field your own emotions
14:19
Speaker 2: and then also tell the people you love that it
14:21
Speaker 2: didn't work.
14:22
Speaker 3: Yes. Everybody's on this roller coaster with you of emotions
14:27
Speaker 3: and stress. And, you know, when you think about it,
14:29
Speaker 3: it's definitely a tough way to go. Yeah.
14:34
Speaker 2: Diane didn't know it yet, but almost nothing about what
14:37
Speaker 2: was going on at the Center for Reproductive Health was
14:40
Speaker 2: going how she thought it would, how anyone thought it would.
14:43
Speaker 3: Dr.
14:43
Speaker 2: Ricardo Ash certainly had his own way of doing things,
14:46
Speaker 2: but unfortunately for Diane and for others, it would be
14:49
Speaker 2: years before what Dr. Ash was really doing would come
14:53
Speaker 2: to light. And so after these embryo transfers were unsuccessful
15:04
Speaker 2: with Dr. Ash, we're still in the early 90s. What
15:08
Speaker 2: is your sort of next step, given that you and
15:10
Speaker 2: your husband still wanted to find a way to have
15:13
Speaker 2: a family?
15:15
Speaker 3: Well, we pretty much then decided to try it maybe
15:20
Speaker 3: in Nebraska and do treatments here. Not that we had
15:24
Speaker 3: any problem with Dr. Ash, but just flying back and
15:27
Speaker 3: forth and doing the treatments. So our remaining embryos we
15:31
Speaker 3: had sent back here, and we worked with those here
15:34
Speaker 3: with a doctor here. And that's when we finally had
15:38
Speaker 3: success and had my daughter, Claire.
15:40
Speaker 2: And how did it feel to finally get that positive
15:43
Speaker 2: pregnancy test?
15:45
Speaker 3: Oh, just the greatest feeling.
15:48
Speaker 2: Totally.
15:49
Speaker 3: You know, we were elated and relieved and like just
15:53
Speaker 3: so glad that we were finally done with this. And
15:58
Speaker 3: I had easy pregnancy. Everything went well. And I never
16:03
Speaker 3: had morning sickness. I never had anything. I guess since
16:06
Speaker 3: we worked so hard, it was very nice to have
16:09
Speaker 3: it go so easily.
16:10
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's amazing.
16:11
Speaker 3: Having our first child.
16:14
Speaker 2: Diane and Budge welcomed their daughter Claire in 1993. Their
16:18
Speaker 2: journey to parenthood had been emotional, expensive, and at times all-consuming.
16:23
Speaker 2: But now their baby girl was here, from a frozen
16:26
Speaker 2: embryo created at Dr. Ash's clinic. After Claire is born,
16:32
Speaker 2: are you even thinking about Dr. Ash or is he
16:34
Speaker 2: sort of like more in the back of your mind?
16:38
Speaker 3: No, he kind of totally in the back, you know,
16:41
Speaker 3: had no thoughts about him really anymore. We were, like
16:44
Speaker 3: I said, kind of on our way to having Claire,
16:48
Speaker 3: and we had done it here, we're at home. So no, Dr.
16:53
Speaker 3: Ash was not on the forefront of my mind anymore. Well,
16:56
Speaker 3: it really wasn't until the scandal broke. My sister... who
17:02
Speaker 3: lives in Southern California in Orange County, she called me
17:05
Speaker 3: and she said, did you hear about your fertility doctor?
17:08
Speaker 3: She goes, there's something going on with him. It's all
17:11
Speaker 3: over the news. And I'm like, well, what's it about?
17:13
Speaker 3: She said, well, he's being accused of stealing patients' eggs
17:17
Speaker 3: and producing embryos and children have been born because of this.
17:22
Speaker 3: And she goes, you haven't heard anything about it. I said, no,
17:24
Speaker 3: I haven't heard a thing. And I said, well, you know,
17:28
Speaker 3: He sees tons of patients, thousands of patients a year.
17:31
Speaker 3: I'm sure I'm not involved. And we kind of, you know,
17:36
Speaker 3: I said, well, you know, keep me posted if you
17:38
Speaker 3: hear any more and let me know.
17:41
Speaker 2: When Diane's sister called with the news about a scandal
17:43
Speaker 2: at UCI's fertility clinic, the Center for Reproductive Health, it
17:47
Speaker 2: was 1995. The Orange County Register had broken the story
17:50
Speaker 2: on May 19th. The very first line reads, The head
17:54
Speaker 2: of internationally acclaimed UCI Fertility Clinic harvested eggs from an
17:58
Speaker 2: Orange County woman without her consent and gave them to
18:01
Speaker 2: another patient who delivered a baby boy about nine months later.
18:05
Speaker 3: It was jarring.
18:07
Speaker 2: Still, Diane was reluctant to believe that she and her
18:09
Speaker 2: family could be involved. She was told that Dr. Ash
18:12
Speaker 2: had retrieved 20 eggs during her retrieval, and she'd wanted
18:15
Speaker 2: all of them because there was no way for she
18:17
Speaker 2: and her husband to conceive naturally. And each of her
18:20
Speaker 2: transfers were multiple embryo transfers. Still looking back, she'd been
18:25
Speaker 2: told they'd seen 60 eggs on her ultrasound. So why
18:28
Speaker 2: had she only gotten 20? How far was the scandal
18:31
Speaker 2: going to go? It wasn't long before Diane received another
18:35
Speaker 2: phone call.
18:37
Speaker 3: But yeah, after that phone call, it literally was the
18:42
Speaker 3: same day. I got a call and it was an investigator.
18:45
Speaker 3: I think it was an investigator from UCI. And they
18:49
Speaker 3: called and said that the records showed that I was involved,
18:55
Speaker 3: that eggs were taken, and they were very interested in
19:00
Speaker 3: the consent form that I'd filled out. And before they
19:03
Speaker 3: did anything, you had to fill out a consent form whether,
19:06
Speaker 3: you know, do you want all your eggs in embryos?
19:10
Speaker 3: Do you want them frozen? Do you want to donate
19:13
Speaker 3: them or have them destroyed or given to science? And,
19:18
Speaker 3: of course, you know, I had signed, you know, we
19:20
Speaker 3: wanted all the eggs we could. So, yeah, and we're
19:24
Speaker 3: trying to get pregnant. I'm not going to donate them. Right.
19:26
Speaker 3: And they said, do you remember signing this? I said, yes.
19:29
Speaker 3: You know, we did it before any procedure. I remember
19:32
Speaker 3: when my husband had to sign it, I signed it.
19:35
Speaker 3: And so they wanted to verify that, yes, these were
19:38
Speaker 3: taken without my consent. And they had a record of
19:42
Speaker 3: three being taken, for sure, that they knew were mine.
19:47
Speaker 2: What did it feel like to get that news that
19:49
Speaker 2: three of your eggs had been taken without your consent?
19:53
Speaker 3: Oh, it was very surreal. Yeah, very surreal. I mean,
19:57
Speaker 3: I couldn't believe that I was involved, that he, you know,
20:02
Speaker 3: would do such a thing. I mean, like, I remember
20:05
Speaker 3: when we were on Oprah, I said, if you can't
20:07
Speaker 3: trust your fertility doctor, who can you trust?
20:10
Speaker 2: Right.
20:11
Speaker 3: And so it was just shocking, you know, and just,
20:14
Speaker 3: I thought, I can't believe out of all the patients,
20:17
Speaker 3: why me? Why do you pick me? But once we
20:21
Speaker 3: got word about it, it's like our phone blew up then.
20:24
Speaker 3: I mean, everybody was calling and wanting interviews and, you know,
20:29
Speaker 3: just a total invasion of any privacy, I mean, whatsoever. Yeah.
20:34
Speaker 2: Did you at the time have any insight as to
20:37
Speaker 2: why your eggs were taken? Like, were they taken to be,
20:41
Speaker 2: you know, did the investigators say they were taken to
20:44
Speaker 2: be donated to other women? Did the investigators say they
20:48
Speaker 2: were donated to science or destroyed? Like, what did he
20:50
Speaker 2: say about where the eggs had gone?
20:53
Speaker 3: Well, I'm not sure if this investigator told us or
20:57
Speaker 3: who did, but ultimately Dr. Ash's next-door neighbor's wife told
21:02
Speaker 3: could not produce eggs. And so mine were taken with
21:07
Speaker 3: another woman, Debbie Challender, and an anonymous donor.
21:12
Speaker 2: Three whistleblowers from inside the clinic realized that Dr. Ash
21:16
Speaker 2: was misappropriating genetic material. A logbook kept at the clinic
21:20
Speaker 2: revealed that Diane's eggs had been inseminated with the sperm
21:23
Speaker 2: of a man who was not her husband, making them
21:26
Speaker 2: into embryos. And those embryos were given to the wife
21:30
Speaker 2: of the man whose sperm was used. The same couple
21:33
Speaker 2: received three additional embryos from a woman named Debbie and
21:37
Speaker 2: her husband, and then more from someone labeled as an
21:40
Speaker 2: anonymous donor. And neither Diane nor Debbie or this anonymous
21:45
Speaker 2: donor had ever consented or been made aware by doctors
21:48
Speaker 2: that their genetic material was being offered to someone else
21:52
Speaker 2: or likely sold. And the couple who received those misappropriated embryos,
21:57
Speaker 2: they had twins.
21:59
Speaker 3: So there were three of us involved. Of course, they
22:03
Speaker 3: only knew the two of us. And they knew that
22:06
Speaker 3: the eggs that then became embryos with the husband's sperm
22:11
Speaker 3: ended up producing boy-girl twins.
22:14
Speaker 2: What did it feel like to hear that?
22:17
Speaker 3: Well, just so helpless. Like, how could this be happening?
22:21
Speaker 3: You know, here you think you're at the best doctor
22:24
Speaker 3: in the world.
22:25
Speaker 2: That is a helpless feeling. Did you know at the
22:28
Speaker 2: time if it was... You know, since there were multiple
22:31
Speaker 2: eggs in the mix, like from you, from Debbie, from
22:36
Speaker 2: an anonymous donor, did you have any information as to
22:40
Speaker 2: whose eggs had resulted in twins?
22:44
Speaker 3: No, we had none. But, you know, it was still
22:47
Speaker 3: very shocking. I mean, to be embroiled in such a
22:51
Speaker 3: big scandal, because it just kept growing and growing. And
22:55
Speaker 3: then you found out it wasn't just twins. she and I,
22:58
Speaker 3: it ended up being, I think, 30 to 40 patients
23:02
Speaker 3: that were involved in the case. And then after I
23:07
Speaker 3: got interviewed by the investigator, then the Orange County Register reporter,
23:12
Speaker 3: Susan Kelleher, called and said she had the actual evidence
23:18
Speaker 3: of showing that they kept what they called an egg log.
23:23
Speaker 3: And it showed that my eggs were taken and given
23:26
Speaker 3: to this patient. So she had that. And she wanted,
23:30
Speaker 3: of course, to interview us and get our reaction to
23:32
Speaker 3: being involved and, you know, kind of tell us more
23:35
Speaker 3: about the case because it was, you know, unfolding every day.
23:39
Speaker 3: It was just getting bigger and bigger. So we asked her, like,
23:44
Speaker 3: could you send us what information you have about it
23:48
Speaker 3: and let us see, you know, she had my consent
23:50
Speaker 3: form where I said, did not want to donate. And
23:54
Speaker 3: she had this egg log that showed three of my
23:56
Speaker 3: eggs had gone to this woman. And so we said,
23:59
Speaker 3: could you mail it to us? So we had to wait,
24:02
Speaker 3: I think it was about a week before we got
24:04
Speaker 3: the actual documentation about it and could see clearly that
24:10
Speaker 3: my name was on this and that they were given
24:13
Speaker 3: to this woman and that she subsequently had twins.
24:17
Speaker 2: When you learned that she then subsequently had twins, what
24:21
Speaker 2: was running through your mind?
24:23
Speaker 3: Oh, just a million things. I mean, how could this
24:25
Speaker 3: happen to us? It wasn't even on our radar something
24:29
Speaker 3: like this could happen. I mean, it was kind of unprecedented.
24:32
Speaker 3: We were very upset. And then, of course, you really
24:36
Speaker 3: wanted to know more. You know, who are these people?
24:39
Speaker 3: How did this all come about? Is this something he
24:42
Speaker 3: was doing regularly, which we found out he was? Because
24:46
Speaker 3: back at that time, they needed a constant supply of
24:51
Speaker 3: donor eggs to per se, because you could freeze embryos,
24:55
Speaker 3: but you couldn't freeze eggs. They had to be used immediately.
24:59
Speaker 3: I see. So it made sense. What he was doing is,
25:03
Speaker 3: you know, he needed, he had all of us there.
25:07
Speaker 2: As details of the embryo theft and fraud unfolded, it
25:10
Speaker 2: was like a time lapse. Diane began replaying how her
25:14
Speaker 2: treatment had gone. Why had she been so heavily medicated
25:18
Speaker 2: and yet only retrieved 20 eggs when she'd been told
25:20
Speaker 2: there were 60 visible on an ultrasound only the day before?
25:25
Speaker 2: Why had patients been batched together instead of going in
25:28
Speaker 2: based on their own individual cycles?
25:31
Speaker 3: He subsequently over-drugged us, basically on purpose. to get more
25:37
Speaker 3: eggs out of us. And it was, I'll give them
25:41
Speaker 3: a few, but I'll take some for my own. And
25:44
Speaker 3: it was alleged that he was not only using them locally,
25:50
Speaker 3: but they were sending these all over the world. You
25:53
Speaker 3: had no idea where in the world your potential children
25:57
Speaker 3: could be.
25:58
Speaker 2: And this is all unfolding as local reporters are calling
26:01
Speaker 2: you and starting to cover the case. But then are
26:05
Speaker 2: you flashing back to when you thought you were going
26:08
Speaker 2: to get closer to 60 eggs and all of a
26:10
Speaker 2: sudden you only had 20? You're wondering, oh, well, maybe
26:14
Speaker 2: what happened to those other ones?
26:17
Speaker 3: And maybe, you know, once again, you're probably lied to
26:19
Speaker 3: because there was no reason they couldn't have gotten more.
26:22
Speaker 3: I obviously had a ton of eggs and we came
26:26
Speaker 3: away with quite a few, but not as many as,
26:29
Speaker 3: you know, when someone tells you you have over 60
26:31
Speaker 3: eggs and you only end up with 20. That leaves
26:34
Speaker 3: a lot of eggs out there.
26:36
Speaker 2: Yeah. How did you then go about determining if these
26:39
Speaker 2: twins that this woman gave birth to were genetically yours?
26:44
Speaker 3: Well, that's one thing we were never able to find out.
26:48
Speaker 3: The couple that had the twins immediately lawyered up and then,
26:53
Speaker 3: you know, would not even entertain the idea of having
26:56
Speaker 3: them genetic tested. I'm not even sure these children to
27:01
Speaker 3: this day don't know if they know how they came about.
27:05
Speaker 2: Wait, so Diane, you never were able to find out
27:08
Speaker 2: if these were your kids or not to this day?
27:10
Speaker 3: No, no, to this day, nothing.
27:12
Speaker 2: Oh. My gosh.
27:13
Speaker 3: They threatened us. I know their name, but I'm not
27:17
Speaker 3: even allowed to say it because they said, you know,
27:20
Speaker 3: if you do anything, move towards these children at all
27:24
Speaker 3: or try to find out, we will fight you every
27:26
Speaker 3: step of the way. And these people had plenty of
27:29
Speaker 3: money and we did not. So we would have liked
27:32
Speaker 3: to pursue it. And I kept thinking, well, someday maybe
27:35
Speaker 3: we'll find out. It's not like at that time the
27:38
Speaker 3: twins would have been three, four years old, that we
27:42
Speaker 3: were going to take them away from the parents too.
27:44
Speaker 3: That was another concern when this all came about is
27:47
Speaker 3: how do you navigate if you do find out they're
27:50
Speaker 3: your kids, then what do you do? Right. Yeah.
27:53
Speaker 2: And the couple that received these eggs that were given
27:57
Speaker 2: to them or sold to them by Dr. Ricardo Ash,
28:00
Speaker 2: did they have any level of awareness that the people
28:04
Speaker 2: whose eggs they were using did not want them used
28:06
Speaker 2: that way?
28:07
Speaker 3: I don't think they did. I think they were told
28:10
Speaker 3: they were donor eggs. I can't imagine they were told
28:13
Speaker 3: anything different than us, that somebody donated them. And I
28:18
Speaker 3: think they were duped as well as us. I can't
28:22
Speaker 3: imagine they knew anything differently.
28:25
Speaker 2: Over the years, how often have you thought about those
28:28
Speaker 2: twins and wondered?
28:29
Speaker 3: Oh, all the time. You know, I've never forgotten it.
28:32
Speaker 3: I mean, You know, especially now that so much has
28:36
Speaker 3: come out with ancestry and people finding, you know, long
28:41
Speaker 3: lost kids. I always wonder if that's possible. You never know.
28:46
Speaker 3: Someone could find you that way. Yeah. And all those
28:49
Speaker 3: other eggs that were taken, you know, what became of them?
28:52
Speaker 3: And did they produce any kids? There was never really
28:56
Speaker 3: much records of anything besides the three. eggs that were taken. So,
29:02
Speaker 3: but that possibility is always there to me that some
29:06
Speaker 3: child could, or now adult, could show up and say, hey,
29:10
Speaker 3: I'm your child, you know, I'm your kid.
29:13
Speaker 2: Do you have your information online? Your, like, DNA?
29:17
Speaker 3: No, I've never done it. Oh, really? I'm almost afraid to.
29:20
Speaker 2: Okay, I was gonna say, like, is part of you afraid?
29:23
Speaker 2: Because to me, I'm like, if you're wondering, there's one
29:25
Speaker 2: way to find out.
29:27
Speaker 3: Yes, true, true. I've never done it yet. I'm thinking
29:31
Speaker 3: about it, but I've not done it so far. So
29:34
Speaker 3: maybe someday.
29:41
Speaker 2: In May of 1995, the University of California at Irvine
29:45
Speaker 2: filed a lawsuit against its own doctors.
29:48
Speaker 3: Dr.
29:49
Speaker 2: Ricardo Ash, Dr. Jose Balsamita, and Dr. Sergio Stone. UCI
29:54
Speaker 2: alleged misconduct by the doctors, including unauthorized egg use, unauthorized
29:58
Speaker 2: human subject research, use of an unapproved drug, and interference
30:03
Speaker 2: with the investigation. UCI also sought damages for about $ 53, 000
30:07
Speaker 2: in university equipment, saying it had been removed. The point
30:13
Speaker 2: of the lawsuit for UCI was to regain control of
30:15
Speaker 2: the records because they knew patient lawsuits were coming. The
30:20
Speaker 2: university filed a restraining order against the doctors, which was
30:23
Speaker 2: not granted, and separated itself from the fertility clinic.
30:28
Speaker 3: You know, at first we didn't know what to do.
30:30
Speaker 3: Of course, we wanted him punished. And the Challenders, Debbie
30:36
Speaker 3: and John Challender, had hired Theodore Wentworth, a lawyer. So
30:40
Speaker 3: we thought, well, we'll contact him and use him as
30:44
Speaker 3: our lawyer since we were kind of tied in the
30:47
Speaker 3: story together. Meanwhile, they were, like the FBI had raided
30:52
Speaker 3: his offices. They had the Senate meetings where, of course,
30:57
Speaker 3: they denied everything. So they did all that. Then we
31:01
Speaker 3: were just waiting for him to be arrested. We were
31:04
Speaker 3: interviewed several times. It got really tricky because you didn't
31:08
Speaker 3: know who, you know, our lawyer pretty much said, don't
31:11
Speaker 3: talk to anybody unless I say they're who you should
31:14
Speaker 3: talk to. So it was stressful and very nerve wracking.
31:19
Speaker 3: So we decided to, you know, sign up with a
31:21
Speaker 3: lawyer and have that protection of having a lawyer speak
31:24
Speaker 3: for us more than us having to talk to everybody.
31:28
Speaker 3: Susan Kelleher did come out to our house in Nebraska
31:33
Speaker 3: and interviewed us and did a story about us specifically.
31:38
Speaker 3: My husband did not really want to get involved in
31:41
Speaker 3: all the things that they wanted us to do. I mean,
31:44
Speaker 3: everybody was calling us, every talk show, every, you know, dateline, 2020.
31:49
Speaker 3: And my husband's, you know, it was such a private thing.
31:53
Speaker 3: I mean, it's not something you want to talk to
31:55
Speaker 3: everybody about. But I was like, we got to go
31:59
Speaker 3: after these doctors and get some kind of justice and stuff.
32:03
Speaker 3: So I kind of led the charge more than my husband.
32:06
Speaker 3: Of course, we hired the lawyer and we did decide
32:10
Speaker 3: that we'd only do two things. We were on Oprah
32:14
Speaker 3: and we did a magazine article with Ladies Home Journal.
32:17
Speaker 3: And that's all we ever did. And, of course, the
32:20
Speaker 3: initial interview from Susan Kelleher. It kind of really was
32:24
Speaker 3: our only way of really getting any retribution for what
32:28
Speaker 3: they had done. And to go after them, you know, financially,
32:32
Speaker 3: we had a lawsuit against them and UC Irvine. Because
32:37
Speaker 3: it was later proven that UC Irvine was aware of
32:41
Speaker 3: this going on and they were looking the other way.
32:44
Speaker 3: And that the profits were so great, they didn't dare
32:48
Speaker 3: want to stop him. And then there was a huge cover-up,
32:52
Speaker 3: and then the three whistleblowers who brought this all to light.
32:57
Speaker 2: When it came to shining a light on what was
32:59
Speaker 2: going on at UCI's Center for Reproductive Health, there were
33:03
Speaker 2: four whistleblowers. Three of them were UCI administrators. Deborah Crail
33:09
Speaker 2: noticed strange financial arrangements between UCI and the doctors running
33:13
Speaker 2: the Center for Reproductive Health. She also noticed unauthorized use
33:17
Speaker 2: of one woman's eggs in another woman's IVF treatment and
33:21
Speaker 2: use of an unapproved fertility drug. Marilyn Killane and Carol
33:24
Speaker 2: Chatham helped document alleged misconduct and bring forward formal allegations.
33:30
Speaker 2: But as it turned out, years earlier in 1992, someone
33:34
Speaker 2: else had also been trying to blow the whistle, but
33:37
Speaker 2: nobody listened. Norbert Gilter, an operating room nurse, had witnessed
33:41
Speaker 2: the misappropriation of eggs and embryos. But when he brought
33:45
Speaker 2: his concerns to a UCI auditor, the man said, I'm
33:48
Speaker 2: an accountant, and I have no idea what to do
33:50
Speaker 2: with that. Norbert's concerns were dismissed.
33:54
Speaker 3: So basically, I guess it was multi-reasons, trying to punish
34:00
Speaker 3: the doctors, punish UCI, get the word out there that
34:04
Speaker 3: this stuff does go on. Unfortunately, really, the only thing
34:08
Speaker 3: you can do is sue for money, even though You know,
34:12
Speaker 3: if that's your child out there and it's with somebody else,
34:14
Speaker 3: millions wouldn't have been enough to satisfy us.
34:17
Speaker 2: Right. It's the only chance at accountability you have.
34:22
Speaker 3: Yes. And of course, they were denying everything. And the
34:26
Speaker 3: sad thing before we were able to get to that
34:28
Speaker 3: point of having a suit against them, the doctor was
34:31
Speaker 3: able to leave the country.
34:34
Speaker 2: In 1995, as the UCI fertility scandal intensified, Dr. Ricardo
34:39
Speaker 2: Ash fled the country from Mexico. He was facing growing
34:43
Speaker 2: allegations that patients' eggs and embryos had been used without
34:46
Speaker 2: proper consent, which he denied knowing about or participating in. U.S.
34:51
Speaker 2: authorities later indicted him on federal charges, but Ash remained
34:55
Speaker 2: abroad and fought extradition efforts for years. He continued practicing
34:59
Speaker 2: medicine in Mexico and then Argentina, and to this day
35:02
Speaker 2: has never returned to the United States to face trial
35:05
Speaker 2: on any of the UCI allegations.
35:08
Speaker 3: You know, people, I guess, still trusted him. I don't
35:11
Speaker 3: know how. But I know his life and lifestyle changed
35:15
Speaker 3: greatly because he was living a pretty nice life in
35:19
Speaker 3: Newport Beach, and he had houses everywhere and cars and racehorses.
35:23
Speaker 3: And so this was a very big money-making machine for
35:28
Speaker 3: him that he lost.
35:30
Speaker 2: And so as much as you can speak to sort
35:32
Speaker 2: of the terms of your settlement, I'm sure you can't
35:35
Speaker 2: give like amounts or whatnot, but how do you feel
35:38
Speaker 2: like your lawsuit panned out for you and your family?
35:41
Speaker 3: Well, I wasn't really happy about it. I was being
35:45
Speaker 3: kind of pulled in a lot of directions by my husband.
35:48
Speaker 3: He just wanted it kind of over. I was more like,
35:53
Speaker 3: I didn't want to mediate and go through mediation. I
35:57
Speaker 3: wanted to go to court, you know, hold them more
36:00
Speaker 3: accountable that way. So when they came up with the
36:03
Speaker 3: idea of mediation, my husband was all for it. He's
36:07
Speaker 3: just like, I want this out of our lives. We
36:09
Speaker 3: need to move on, you know.
36:11
Speaker 2: Well, and then the entire world knows that you've gone
36:13
Speaker 2: through fertility treatments, which is something that sometimes people speak
36:17
Speaker 2: about and sometimes they keep private.
36:20
Speaker 3: Right, exactly. And it is such a private matter. So
36:24
Speaker 3: I think my husband, he was very happy about the mediation.
36:28
Speaker 3: And our lawyer at the time, you know, he was like,
36:32
Speaker 3: if you don't do this, it's going to take 10.
36:35
Speaker 3: They can, you know, UCI is a big organization. They
36:38
Speaker 3: have lots of lawyers. You could be at this for
36:41
Speaker 3: 10 to 15 years if you don't settle now. And
36:45
Speaker 3: so my husband, all he had to hear was like,
36:48
Speaker 3: I don't want to spend I was kind of willing
36:50
Speaker 3: to do it. I wanted to do it. But I
36:54
Speaker 3: guess at the time, you know, you have to look
36:57
Speaker 3: at the long game and do you want to spend
36:59
Speaker 3: that much time fighting this? And they probably could have
37:03
Speaker 3: kept it, you know, going and going and going.
37:07
Speaker 2: And so your mediation was with the school, University of
37:10
Speaker 2: California at Irvine and not with Dr. Ricardo Ashe.
37:14
Speaker 3: No, he's gone. He's out of the picture. And basically,
37:18
Speaker 3: you're not touchable anymore. So then you're left with the university.
37:23
Speaker 3: And we did go through the mediation process with them.
37:26
Speaker 3: It was kind of like a panel of people. They
37:28
Speaker 3: interviewed you. You spoke of its effect on you, what
37:34
Speaker 3: you've been through. And then they sent a dollar amount.
37:38
Speaker 3: It was basically a sliding scale.
37:41
Speaker 2: It's like a sliding scale based on how they judge
37:43
Speaker 2: your level of trauma.
37:45
Speaker 3: Pretty much, yeah.
37:46
Speaker 2: So strange.
37:48
Speaker 3: It was very strange. And like I said, I was
37:51
Speaker 3: against doing it. So it was really hard. I don't know.
37:55
Speaker 3: I guess I'm a rebel without a cause. And I thought, well,
37:58
Speaker 3: that was taking the easy way out. So I wasn't
38:02
Speaker 3: real gung-ho about it. But of course, we did it.
38:05
Speaker 3: It was kind of then done. and we could move
38:09
Speaker 3: on with our lives as best possible, you know.
38:11
Speaker 2: The couple that gave birth to twins as a result
38:15
Speaker 2: of a batch of eggs that included yours, when did
38:19
Speaker 2: your conversations with that couple start and end? Do you remember?
38:23
Speaker 2: Was it before or after the lawsuit?
38:25
Speaker 3: It was before the lawsuit, I believe. It was pretty
38:29
Speaker 3: soon on we found out who they were. It was
38:32
Speaker 3: kind of interesting. It was kind of a slip-up by...
38:36
Speaker 3: I think it was 2020, actually sent paperwork that they
38:41
Speaker 3: meant to send to them, but they sent to us
38:44
Speaker 3: that exposed their name. So that's how we found out
38:47
Speaker 3: about them. Yeah. Otherwise, we didn't know their name. But
38:52
Speaker 3: it was pretty clear right from the get-go that they
38:54
Speaker 3: were not going to cooperate. They did not want DNA testing.
38:59
Speaker 3: None of that. They wanted to keep it private to themselves.
39:02
Speaker 2: Did you speak with them directly?
39:05
Speaker 3: No, our lawyer talked to him.
39:08
Speaker 2: What was Debbie's reaction?
39:10
Speaker 3: Oh, I'll just never forget how heartbroken they were, especially
39:16
Speaker 3: her husband. He just, John was just a mess through
39:20
Speaker 3: the whole thing and so upset and so devastated by
39:25
Speaker 3: it all. And it was really hard on both of them.
39:28
Speaker 3: She and, uh, John suffered a lot.
39:33
Speaker 2: I can only imagine what that must feel like. And,
39:36
Speaker 2: you know, in your case, you went on to have
39:38
Speaker 2: twins of your own after having Claire. Were your twins
39:42
Speaker 2: also from embryos created at Dr. Ash's clinic?
39:47
Speaker 3: No, we went through a whole nother procedure. By then
39:50
Speaker 3: they were doing procedures in Omaha. So we were able
39:53
Speaker 3: to have them. The doctor was very careful how she
39:56
Speaker 3: handled me, did not over medicate me. And we came
40:01
Speaker 3: away with four embryos and had them put back in
40:06
Speaker 3: and I got twins. So we are very fortunate.
40:09
Speaker 2: With Claire, you know, since the embryo that resulted in
40:14
Speaker 2: Claire died, was created at Dr. Ash's clinic, did you
40:18
Speaker 2: ever have any concerns that he, like, cared to even
40:21
Speaker 2: give you your own embryo?
40:23
Speaker 3: Well, it crossed your mind, you know, when things were
40:27
Speaker 3: being juggled and thrown around, like, so easily there and misappropriate. Luckily,
40:33
Speaker 3: she looked a lot like me, or you would kind
40:35
Speaker 3: of wonder.
40:36
Speaker 2: Yeah.
40:36
Speaker 3: Because really, all trust was lost by then. So we
40:40
Speaker 3: are fortunate that She does look a lot like me
40:44
Speaker 3: and my other daughter. So, but yeah, it had to
40:47
Speaker 3: cross her mind. You know, the trust was gone.
40:50
Speaker 2: Of course.
40:52
Speaker 3: Yeah.
40:52
Speaker 2: And the couple that lived next door to Dr. Ash
40:56
Speaker 2: that had the twins, once you had their names, I mean,
41:00
Speaker 2: did you ever then, once social media started happening, ever
41:04
Speaker 2: try to see what the kids look like or?
41:07
Speaker 3: No, I never have. Wow.
41:09
Speaker 2: You have so much restraint. Excuse me.
41:13
Speaker 3: I know. It's definitely a Pandora's box. You know, you're open.
41:17
Speaker 3: It could open. I don't know. I guess I just
41:20
Speaker 3: put it in a little box and try to put
41:22
Speaker 3: it away. I can't say I don't think about it.
41:25
Speaker 2: I mean, Hannah and I interviewed... We've interviewed people about
41:29
Speaker 2: fertility fraud before. It's typically the story you hear is
41:32
Speaker 2: the fertility doctor using their own sperm.
41:35
Speaker 3: Yes. Yeah.
41:36
Speaker 2: It's probably the most common one, which is also awful.
41:39
Speaker 3: Yes. Disgusting.
41:41
Speaker 2: But I had never heard of one like this where
41:44
Speaker 2: embryos and eggs were taken and really sold. I mean,
41:49
Speaker 2: he was making money without the consent of those women
41:52
Speaker 2: and those couples.
41:54
Speaker 3: Oh, lots of money. He definitely had a type he
41:57
Speaker 3: was looking for. In fact, I remember the FBI, when
42:00
Speaker 3: they interviewed me, said, is your hair ever been blonde?
42:04
Speaker 3: I'm like, no. And I guess the women he usually
42:08
Speaker 3: chose were blonde and blue-eyed, because people all picture a
42:13
Speaker 3: Gerber baby, you know, with the blonde hair, blue eyes.
42:17
Speaker 3: And they said, yeah, you're one of the few that
42:19
Speaker 3: were a brunette with dark eyes or brown eyes. And
42:24
Speaker 3: that he definitely seemed that the people they were finding
42:27
Speaker 3: were mostly blonde, blue-eyed.
42:30
Speaker 2: Jeez. That's so scary.
42:32
Speaker 3: Yeah.
42:33
Speaker 2: And I'm sure it was complicated for that couple who
42:36
Speaker 2: had the twins as a result of embryos or eggs
42:39
Speaker 2: they later found out were stolen.
42:40
Speaker 3: Correct.
42:40
Speaker 2: But I also can't imagine not wanting to know.
42:44
Speaker 3: Yes.
42:45
Speaker 2: Genetically, those were your children. Although maybe they found out
42:48
Speaker 2: and then just kept it to themselves. We don't know.
42:51
Speaker 3: You know, they had done all this to have these
42:54
Speaker 3: twins and were keeping it from their loved ones, you know.
42:59
Speaker 2: What else did the FBI say to you?
43:01
Speaker 3: Well, just that the people that worked in the office
43:04
Speaker 3: said that literally people would come in with envelopes full
43:07
Speaker 3: of cash to pay for these. And there were people
43:11
Speaker 3: coming from all over the world, not just the United States,
43:14
Speaker 3: because he was so world-renowned that he would get patients
43:18
Speaker 3: from all over the place. And just the amount of
43:22
Speaker 3: money going through there and cash. And then some people
43:24
Speaker 3: paid him with, I remember for some reason they said
43:27
Speaker 3: like a Persian rugs and, you know, different things. It
43:30
Speaker 3: wasn't always money. It was actually items and jewelry and
43:35
Speaker 3: all kinds of different ways of paying him.
43:38
Speaker 2: What would you say like the biggest impact has been
43:41
Speaker 2: as a result of having your eggs stolen?
43:46
Speaker 3: Well, just the, It's such a violation. You know, you
43:49
Speaker 3: spend your life, you grow up, you date, you meet people,
43:54
Speaker 3: you decide who you want to have children with. It's
43:58
Speaker 3: such a big part of your life. And to have
44:01
Speaker 3: that just taken away from you, that anybody could have
44:04
Speaker 3: your kids, is just hellish. It was like, I cannot
44:09
Speaker 3: believe someone did this to me. One of the whistleblowers
44:13
Speaker 3: called it biomedical rape. And it basically was that. Everything
44:18
Speaker 3: was taken away from you without your consent. The trust
44:23
Speaker 3: was so broken. And just always having that nagging thing
44:28
Speaker 3: in the back of your head, like, do I really
44:30
Speaker 3: have kids out there? What did he do with all
44:33
Speaker 3: those eggs? And just trust in general of the medical field.
44:39
Speaker 3: I don't have it anymore. I question everything because that
44:42
Speaker 3: was taken away from me. and without my consent. So
44:46
Speaker 3: it just changes you as a person. We had such
44:51
Speaker 3: a tough time getting through it, my husband and I,
44:53
Speaker 3: especially because we were at odds so much about what
44:55
Speaker 3: to do. He just wanted to go away and I
44:58
Speaker 3: wanted to fight the world. And if I could have
45:01
Speaker 3: gone to Mexico City and go capture him myself, I
45:04
Speaker 3: was willing to do that. I testified in front of
45:07
Speaker 3: the grand jury. I did everything I could to make
45:11
Speaker 3: UCI and as much as I could Dr. Ash suffer.
45:14
Speaker 3: But yeah, it was just, I guess, maybe just a
45:18
Speaker 3: loss of trust and, you know, just knowing how vulnerable
45:22
Speaker 3: you are in that situation and that someone would feed
45:26
Speaker 3: upon you and break that trust like he did.
45:29
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's understandable that you would feel that way. It
45:34
Speaker 2: is extremely violating. You know about, from this logbook, three
45:39
Speaker 2: eggs that were taken and given to this neighbor of
45:42
Speaker 2: the doctor, right? But there's probably a lot that we
45:44
Speaker 2: don't know. And you know that you had 20 eggs retrieved.
45:49
Speaker 2: Is that what you were told, 20 eggs retrieved? But
45:51
Speaker 2: that the day before you'd been told there were 60.
45:54
Speaker 3: Yes.
45:55
Speaker 2: Do you think that there's more that you don't know? Oh, sure.
45:59
Speaker 3: I think a lot more. It bothers me to think
46:02
Speaker 3: that Some of the eggs were donated, you know, to
46:05
Speaker 3: science and they were doing experiments on them and all that.
46:08
Speaker 3: It was hard enough just to do the procedures. And
46:12
Speaker 3: in vitro, I was born and raised Catholic. So it's
46:16
Speaker 3: not even looked upon real positively with the Catholic Church.
46:21
Speaker 3: So just think that they were giving away the eggs
46:24
Speaker 3: and God knows what we're done with all of them.
46:26
Speaker 3: was also another factor that was very disturbing to me, too.
46:30
Speaker 3: Because we were kind of going out on a limb
46:34
Speaker 3: with our religion to even do IVF. And then to
46:37
Speaker 3: see how they were just handing out, like, you know,
46:41
Speaker 3: nothing that didn't matter. And that experiments could have been
46:46
Speaker 3: done on them. And just that lack of knowing, or
46:50
Speaker 3: ever really knowing, what happened to all of them.
46:53
Speaker 2: Diane's children have always known that they were conceived with
46:56
Speaker 2: the help of IVF. They're all aware, also, of the
46:58
Speaker 2: fraud at UCI. And they wondered what it might be
47:01
Speaker 2: like for them to know that they could have other
47:04
Speaker 2: siblings out in the world.
47:06
Speaker 3: Yeah, they said, wouldn't it be weird, you know, when
47:09
Speaker 3: they talk about, like, if someone did show up here
47:11
Speaker 3: and say, hey, you're my mom.
47:13
Speaker 2: But none of you have put your information on, like,
47:16
Speaker 2: ancestry or anything like that?
47:18
Speaker 3: No, none of us. We thought about it. Then I thought, oh,
47:22
Speaker 3: do I want to open that Pandora's box, you know?
47:25
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, it's such a personal decision.
47:28
Speaker 3: Yes.
47:29
Speaker 2: You have to do what makes sense for you and
47:32
Speaker 2: for your family.
47:33
Speaker 3: Exactly. But yeah, it's always in the back of my mind. Like,
47:37
Speaker 3: should I? And then maybe, you know, I shouldn't. We
47:41
Speaker 3: go back and forth. Yeah. And so I haven't done
47:45
Speaker 3: it yet.
47:45
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's no right or wrong. You just have to
47:47
Speaker 2: go with your... Go with your heart on that one.
47:49
Speaker 3: Sure.
47:55
Speaker 2: Thank you so much to Diane for trusting us with
47:58
Speaker 2: her story. Something that I wanted to touch on that
48:01
Speaker 2: Diane and I spoke a little bit but ended up
48:03
Speaker 2: getting cut from the interview was that Dr. Ricardo Ash
48:06
Speaker 2: was becoming extremely wealthy from... his work as a fertility doctor.
48:11
Speaker 2: So this isn't a situation where he got in over
48:15
Speaker 2: his head desperately trying to help people grow their families
48:18
Speaker 2: out of the goodness of his heart. You know, these
48:21
Speaker 2: procedures were a lot of money and people were misled
48:25
Speaker 2: on both sides. The people who didn't know that their
48:28
Speaker 2: genetic material was being given to other couples and those
48:32
Speaker 2: couples or just individuals receiving that genetic material, they didn't
48:37
Speaker 2: know that it was being given to them without the
48:40
Speaker 2: consent of the people whose genetic material it was. There
48:44
Speaker 2: were cases where the doctors took cash from patients and
48:48
Speaker 2: didn't report that income. The OC Register reported that at
48:52
Speaker 2: least 15 live births resulted from improper transfers. And, you know,
48:58
Speaker 2: you think about that and 15 live births, that's 15
49:02
Speaker 2: babies out there that were born to couples who did
49:05
Speaker 2: not realize that that genetic material was never supposed to
49:09
Speaker 2: belong to them. And there are other cases from this
49:12
Speaker 2: same scandal where those parents have now come together and
49:15
Speaker 2: those kids have been introduced to their biological families. And,
49:19
Speaker 2: you know, talking to Diane and her sort of hesitancy
49:24
Speaker 2: to go down that road, I understand it, not on
49:28
Speaker 2: a personal level, but I made quite a few phone
49:31
Speaker 2: calls when I was trying to figure out who I
49:33
Speaker 2: could speak with about this story and actually spoke with
49:37
Speaker 2: a woman who I won't identify who is pretty convinced
49:40
Speaker 2: that she does have a biological child out there in
49:42
Speaker 2: the world. And she was very interested in speaking with me,
49:45
Speaker 2: but her only hang-up was that she really did not
49:48
Speaker 2: want it to expose her to that child in some
49:52
Speaker 2: way because it would be too painful.
49:54
Speaker 3: And.
49:56
Speaker 2: you know, you never really know how you're going to
49:58
Speaker 2: respond to a situation until you're in it. And so
50:01
Speaker 2: I can say that Diane's not alone in not putting
50:04
Speaker 2: her DNA online to find out because some people just
50:08
Speaker 2: don't want to. Because everyone handles these things differently and
50:11
Speaker 2: you have to do what makes sense for your whole family.
50:14
Speaker 2: I mean, Diane now has children of her own. So
50:17
Speaker 2: this is a fertility fraud unlike What we typically see
50:21
Speaker 2: in maybe more recent news headlines where it comes up
50:25
Speaker 2: that a fertility doctor is using his own sperm Hannah
50:29
Speaker 2: and I have reported on stories like that before. We
50:31
Speaker 2: once interviewed a woman named Eve Wiley about that, actually,
50:34
Speaker 2: on our last show. But yeah, I've never heard of
50:37
Speaker 2: one like this and hopefully never will again. And as
50:41
Speaker 2: fertility treatments become more popular and more accessible, hopefully they'll
50:46
Speaker 2: also continue to become more and more regulated and not
50:50
Speaker 2: just with rules and regulations, but with oversight to enforce that.
50:53
Speaker 2: Because I think history tells us it's really, really important. Anyway,
50:58
Speaker 2: so thank you again to Diane. Thank you, everyone, for listening,
51:02
Speaker 2: and we'll see you next week. If you have a
51:05
Speaker 2: story for us, we would love to hear it. Our
51:08
Speaker 2: email is thenife at exactlyrightmedia.com, or you can follow us
51:11
Speaker 2: on Instagram at The Knife Podcast or Blue Sky at
51:14
Speaker 2: The Knife Podcast.
51:15
Speaker 1: This has been an Exactly Right production, hosted and produced
51:18
Speaker 1: by me, Hannah Smith.
51:20
Speaker 2: And me, Patia Eaton. Our producers are Tom Breifogel and
51:23
Speaker 2: Alexa Samorosi.
51:25
Speaker 1: This episode was mixed by Tom Breifogel.
51:27
Speaker 2: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.
51:29
Speaker 1: Our theme music is by Birds in the Airport.
51:32
Speaker 2: Artwork by Vanessa Lilac.
51:33
Speaker 1: Executive produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark, and Danielle Kramer.