Latest / Salish Wolf / #87 Erica Cardinale on Project Quiver

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#87 Erica Cardinale on Project Quiver · Salish Wolf

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The official pre sale for our new book, Quiver, The Art of
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Life Through Bow Craft runs from June 30th to July 13th.
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Published by Trope of Chicago, this 336 page coffee table book
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features more than 350 photographs and explores the
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legacy of primitive archery through the lives and work of 14
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of the world's finest traditional boggers.
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We're launching a special Founder's Edition available
0:22
exclusively through Project quiver.com.
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Each copy includes A numbered book plate hand signed by Ella
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and me, and is available only during our limited presale.
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The Founder's Edition presale lasts only two weeks, from June
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30th to July 13th, exclusively at projectquiver.com.
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We'd be honored to have your support and to share this
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project with you. Welcome to Project Quiver, a
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father daughter journey across the globe to document the
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artistry and spirit of the world's finest traditional
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bowyers. I'm Todd and Ella is my
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daughter. Together we've traveled to the
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workshops of master bowyers, carving bows under their
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guidance, photographing their work in extraordinary detail and
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preserving the stories behind one of humanity's oldest crafts.
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The result is Quiver, the Art of Life Through Bow Craft, a
1:12
photographic and narrative exploration of traditional bow
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carving, this podcast shares stories and experiences of the
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remarkable individuals who are carrying forward the enduring
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legacy of the bow and arrow. The book is Quiver.
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The journey is Project Quiver. Welcome to the Salish Wolf
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podcast. Thanks for joining me today.
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Yeah, and I'm, I'm happy to be here.
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When you reached out, I started listening to some of the podcast
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episodes and yeah, I'm happy to contribute.
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Awesome, and where are you? I just moved to North Carolina
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about a month. I guess.
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It's still kind of chaos in here behind me, as you can see that.
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But yeah, originally from Florida and now I'm in Raleigh,
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NC. What took you there?
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You know, me and my spouse, we both work remotely and we talked
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about leaving Florida for years and finally had the the
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opportunity to just do it and no one needs to get a new job and
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so here we are. Nice.
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What do you do for work then? So I am on the computer all day.
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I'm a a data analyst. And so it's, yeah, bill making
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is kind of my, my escape from them to get away from the
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digital world. Yeah, I imagine that's something
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that you need after being on the computer all day.
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I kind of short circuit after a couple hours, but it's awesome
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that get allows you to live remotely.
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How do you like it? How do you like it there?
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So far it's so good. It's been been hotter here than
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I expected. It's been like Florida weather a
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lot in North Carolina, but it's the people are really nice.
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It's, it's been a good change so far.
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My daughter's three. She's she's in love with it
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here. She loves to go to the pool and
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walk in the trails and there's like a ton of green space here.
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So it's it's been great. Are you in the city of Raleigh
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or on the outskirts of it? I am on like the first suburb
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outside. I'm in a in a suburb called
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Cary. OK.
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And why did you end up there? As good schools, lots of green
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space, there's a trail system that goes like all throughout
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the town. It's it seemed like it'd be like
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a a really great place for my daughter to grow up.
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And so I picked you. Were you familiar with it before
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moving? Someone I have AI have a cousin
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that lives in Raleigh, so I've spent maybe a week in Raleigh
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total before we came. And I actually didn't see the
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house until I flew up for the closing.
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And wow, yeah, so it was stressful, stressful time just
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buying a house sight unseen. Yeah.
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Well, congratulations. I hope it's working out for you.
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Where are where are you? You're in Costa Rica.
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Currently I'm in Costa Rica for one more week and then I'll be
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up in Canada for a couple months.
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But I spend most of my time in Costa Rica.
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Yeah, I'm in a little town called Nosara, which is on the
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Pacific Coast. That is.
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Yeah, it's beautiful. So how long have you been into
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archery? I've been doing this for 11-12
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years now. It started off when I was in
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school and I just had this desire that I really want to
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shoot a boat. And for whatever reason I didn't
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want it to be a compound bow. I didn't want it to be
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fiberglass. I wanted a wood bow.
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And I saw what they cost and was like, I'm not, I'm not willing
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to pay that because I know I'm going to do this like twice and
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then I'm going to quit and I'm going to spend $1000 for
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something I do twice. And then a few months go by and
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I found out about a website called a pourful Bose and
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started going through that was like, wow, I can, I can do this
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myself. Maybe like, let let's see what
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happens. And went off to Home Depot,
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bought a red oak board. And by the end of the weekend, I
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blew it up and it was a huge failure.
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And I repeated that process for several months and I failed like
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7 times in a row before I ever shot an arrow because I had, I
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had nowhere woodworking skills, I had no experience with any of
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it. And so it was trial by fire just
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trying to get up that learning curve.
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And then I probably nine months in, it finally made a working
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bow and I shot about 100 arrows before it broke.
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And that was a massive win, and I was.
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Yeah. Wow.
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OK. So you must have had some sort
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of resource that you're using to carve your bows or try to carve
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them. Did you have Internet, books?
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Anybody helping you out? Along so I started out just with
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like the poor folk bows website and then along the way went down
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the rabbit hole, started reading like the traditional blow years
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bibles. I found the primitive Archer
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forum was a big one for me. That was what really got me over
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the hump and got me like actually making something that
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worked and it was such such an amazing resource I'd I don't
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think I could have done it without it.
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That was that was the big one for me and really I didn't post
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anything. I just read the forums and just,
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I would search old topics and I would just learn as I went.
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And honestly, for me, a lot of it was just woodworking skills.
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I didn't, I didn't have any. And so I'd be gone and I'd take
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off too much wood here and make a massive hinge and it's like,
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well, it's, it's done. I got to start over again.
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So of all those initial failures, did you ever kind of
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figure out or was there any consistency I guess in the
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failures? No, I was very creative.
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I found a new way to fail every time I.
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Love that. Do you think you were choosing
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the wood improperly? Maybe some of them.
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I would love to blame the wood, but it was it was me that I I
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had good boards. I still occasionally like making
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like a a red oak board bell. I may just have a special place
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in my heart because I did so many of them for so long that I
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I choose worst barns now and make good bows out of them than
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they used to so. That's some incredible
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resilience. It's great that you stuck with
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it. Are your Genesis story is almost
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identical to mine when it came to archery.
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I had the same exact just a calling.
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I knew I wanted to shoot a bow. I don't know where it came from.
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Well, I know it like it came to me during my my Tai chi
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practice, doing some bow forms. But I'd never had a bow.
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I'd never shot a bow. And just like you, I knew I
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didn't want a compound bow. I didn't know what I wanted, but
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I knew I just wanted something. What I now know is a primitive
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bow. And I also was shocked by the
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prices. I thought I was going to spend a
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couple $100. And then I came across
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Ravenbeak, Nature Works and Powell River.
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Jamie MacDonald and I came across his English long bows,
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fell in love with one of them called Bailey's.
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I knew that was the bow I had to get.
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So yeah, I spent whatever it was 1000, probably more than 1000,
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to get it and certainly didn't regret it.
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But at that point in time, I hadn't even considered carving
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my own. It was only after I got that bow
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and fell in love with it and spent more time with it that I
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realized, well, hey, this is something maybe I could do.
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So I actually called up Jamie and asked if I could come in and
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learn with him. And I took some men there and we
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took a group of guys and, and we learned from him the first time.
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And then I went back a few more times with Jamie.
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So I can only imagine the frustration that must have
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mounted during nine months of being on your own, failure after
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failure, because I fortunately got to dip into it gently with a
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success right away with Jamie. And probably the first three of
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them were successes because I had Jamie.
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And then I started to carve on my own and started to fail a
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lot. But it was.
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I I like how it went to me, you know, like I, I was making it, I
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was making it like a little bit further usually and I could
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like, I could like feel progress even though like I hadn't made
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it over the hump like I was, they were getting better and I
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knew I was making progress and you know, and honestly, like I
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just needed the time just with a tool in my hand because it's,
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that was never my world. Like I didn't know anything
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about it. And it, you know, even even when
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I was failing, I was enjoying the challenge and I was enjoying
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learning. And you know, I don't, I don't
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know if I would have been so driven to keep progressing if my
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very first attempt I had made a good bow.
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I don't know if I would have made a second.
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So what tools were you using then and what tools do you use
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now? Yeah.
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So the very first thing that I started out with was I had like
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a, a cheap black plane from, I think it's from Lowe's that not
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very good. I had a had like a combination
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rasp that I hate, hated it then hate it now.
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I don't even think I brought it on the move.
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I think it's in the trash. And that was mostly what I was
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using. I ended up picking up like a
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like an electric planer to kind of take some time off of doing
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the the sides of the boards. And now for me, it's I love, I
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love a Shinto rasp. I do a lot with a Shinto rasp.
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I do a lot with hard scraper. I use a lot of sandpaper.
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I think I use finer grit sandpaper than most people.
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Like I, I'll go up to like 1002 thousand grit for the final.
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Yeah. Just to have it like as close to
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like glass as I can get on the on the finish.
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I do. I don't use a bandsaw at all.
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I'm convinced I'd cut my finger off.
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I just know it would go that way.
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Yeah. So I use trust.
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Your get on that one. I have AI have a belt Sander
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that I'm pretty good with that I've never tried it but I could
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probably if I wanted to. I think I could get about like
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90% done just with a belt Sander if I wanted to.
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Like I, I've started trying to make like a violin and they are
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very specific on like they go to like get a 10th of a millimeter
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for these little parts of the violin.
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And I was trying to do it with handfuls and I got frustrated.
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And so I, I just did it with a, with a belt Sander because I
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know like I can, I can do 10s of a millimeter with a belt Sander.
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Wow that that's a whole nother game trying to make musical
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instruments. Yeah, that's, it's honest.
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It's been good for my bow building too, because it's like
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I have AI have a mentor named Michael Doran, who started off
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grew up going to like a wilderness school, was making
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making our tree bows in school out in the Pacific Northwest
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growing up and became a a professional cello maker.
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That makes like like award-winning gold medal at the
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national competition Cellos is and his level of finish on those
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cellos has really inspired me to like up my own game And like,
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let's see if I can make like a piece of art that you can hang
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on your wall that you could also, you know, take out from
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Saturday and go put an arrow through a deer.
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Like trying to just balance the that art piece with the with
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like the high end performance. Wow, that's incredible.
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That's I can't even imagine what must go into making a musical
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instrument. Yeah, it's, it's insane what
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they do. I mean, it's that's three
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hundred 400 hours of work, just yeah.
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And are you a musician? No, not at all.
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Are you going to play it? I've I've thought about him.
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Well, we'll see. There's a pretty good chance
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that I will pay someone who knows how to play to play it for
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me so I can hear it like actually sound good.
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But who knows if someday I'll do lessons or whatever.
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I you know, I have AI have a toddler so that's most of my
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time is just work and crazy toddler like.
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The woodworking must have really resonated with you, felt like
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you needed to make a bow. You fell in love with that.
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Now you're moving on to musical instruments, and I can
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understand the bow because you wanted to shoot a bow.
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Making a musical instrument that you can't even play like that's,
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that's a real love for woodworking, I think.
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Is that what it is? And it's, it's honestly, it's,
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you know, it's a challenge, right?
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We can always looking for like what's next.
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And so like, like I'm still, I'm still making bows, but it's,
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it's mostly like I need like AI need an idea for something I
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haven't done before, a way to challenge myself.
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And then I'm going to go all in trying to do that and trying to
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make a violin. And you know, it's, it's that
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same kind of thing. It's a challenge.
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And there's a very good chance that I fail spectacularly and I
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have to learn and keep growing to get over the hump.
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And I I like that challenge. We'll see if I finish it or when
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I finish it because 3-4 hundred hours is is a lot of time.
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Yes it is. It's a lot of bows too that you
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can make in that time. It is have you has typically
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been an all all in person with pursuits.
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I I have two months I either immediately quit or I'm locked
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in and I keep going and I can't predict which one different
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things will be but it's making bows is something I was locked
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in and just kept going. Yeah.
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And I can see you've only been in your house a couple weeks and
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you've got the some of the bows hanging on the wall.
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So obviously that's an important part of feeling settled in, I
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guess having having your bows there.
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Yeah, we're, we're in. So we're in my office right now
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and I've got, I've got like my screen here that you're on.
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There's like other monitors and everything around me.
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And it's like the room that I did first because I'm spending
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the most time in here. And yeah, we've got, we've got
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some bows on the wall and it's, I don't know, I like having them
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next to me while I'm working. Yeah.
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And what the challenge is that also in bow making, you're
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trying new things with each bow that you make.
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Yeah, I I like the push the limits a little bit and just
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kind of see what can be done. Like one of my most recent ones,
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I decided like, well, I haven't done a haven't done a red oak
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board in years. Let's see, like when I've got
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the skill set, can I make something really great?
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You know, because it's, it's known as like a beginner wood
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and these red oak board bows are not going to be very good.
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They're not going to be very pretty.
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But let's see what I can do now inside, I ended up making it and
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I spliced in walnut tips it for the last like 6 or 8 inches on
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each side. OK, Then ended up making like a
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a beautiful bow that I, that I love.
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I'll actually grab it off the lawn show you.
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Yeah. Please.
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OK. So yeah, you can see it's like
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it's all red oak through here. And then once you get out to the
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tips, switches out to walnut, then it's just natural walnut
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color. What's the transition material
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that it's wrapped in? Oh, so that is going to be just
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like a like a hemp corn underneath it spliced and I just
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put that over the top. Yeah, beautiful.
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Yeah, and it's, you know, and it's a pizza right up for bone.
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But wow, you want that test from a from a broken ball.
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That's gorgeous. Yeah, you have some.
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I've only seen your stuff on Instagram but you have some
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beautiful bows. Thank you.
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Yeah. How many do you think are you
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kind of making on average? Like a yearly let's say?
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Yeah, I just I do a couple year it's I don't I don't like
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selling them. I learned pretty quickly, like I
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don't want to try and make a career out of it.
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I, I like having my day job be something different.
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I want to be excited and look forward to going into the garage
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and working, working on a bell. And I like, I like pushing the
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limits. And it's like, I don't know
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what's going to fail, what's not going to fail.
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And it's like can't sell something that's, you know, on
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the edge to someone. If it, if it breaks on me,
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whatever, I'll make another one for myself.
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But I don't want to sell something and have it break for
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someone else. And I'm not, I'm not that
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interested in playing it safe and making something with a big
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giant margin of error where someone who's new to archery can
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pick it up and use it and it's definitely going to be fine.
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Yeah. What does your family think
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about your passion for bow making?
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There they're supportive. I mean, I'm kind of kind of on
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my own little island. It's they're not not into it
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enough to learn about it. I think my daughter is getting
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ready to get into it. I just finished up a hubo over
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the like the last week or two and she's like, I strung it over
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the weekend and everything and she's wanting to like pull it
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back with me and she's like making me promise I'm going to
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make her a bow. So I think that's.
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Coming pretty soon, I probably won't push the limits on that
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one. Yeah, well, she's, she's 3 1/2.
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Is that what you said? Yeah, she's 3.
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She just tried 3. I don't remember how old my son
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was when I made his first beau, but probably he was probably
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shooting around 5 or 6. I don't know, could have been a
20:29
bit sooner. But yeah, it's, it's great to
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get them if they're interested in it, to get him in at an early
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age. Yeah, it's a little bit earlier
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than I probably would have liked, but I mean, if she's
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really into it right now, it's it's OK, let's do it.
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Yeah, what's your workshop like in the new place?
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Oh, so I like to go really, really simple.
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I, I like to just have my tools that are like in a, in a
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toolbox, They're around. And then I, I sit on the floor
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of my garage, I sit outside and I, I sit there and most of it's
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done. No clamps, no nothing.
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Just yeah, no, I don't use a tiller tree.
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I there's that like a meditative aspect for me and just sitting
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on the ground with a couple hand tools and just listening to
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music and doing it for flowers. So how do you do you do anything
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to keep the bowl steady while you're using hand tools?
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No, usually no. Usually I'm just I'm just
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hauling it and doing it at the same time.
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Yeah. And then for tailoring, is that
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just through feel? It's I do a lot of it through
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feel and then I will kind of kind of floor tiller and feel
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the band and everything. And I've done enough of them
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that I, I kind of know where I'm at and you know how things are
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going to look. And then after that, I'll
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typically take like my like Stringer that you would use to
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brace a bow and I'll loop the ends on that and just kind of
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feel the bend and see how that feels.
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And yeah, I probably am not stringing it until I'm 80% done.
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Wow. OK.
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That's pretty unique characteristics for carving.
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That's really cool. And you do it.
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And you normally do it on your garage floor.
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Usually on the garage floor, no shoes, just sitting on the
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ground listening to music. And there we go, right in the
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right in the middle of the garage.
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And are you still doing board bows or are you using staves as
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well? I, I do both, that's I would say
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I mostly do staves at this point.
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A lot of Osage, a lot of you. It's I have like some hackberry
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and some other white woods lying around.
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I think next one I'm going to work with is like a like a white
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oak stave that I have sitting up there that I've been eyeing for
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a little bit. Where do you get your staves?
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So I am buying them across the Internet.
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You know, I don't have enough time.
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And honestly, I probably, I, I just don't have the desire to go
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out and cut a tree and split it and do all of that.
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Like I, I don't process my own stays.
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I just want to. Yeah, exactly.
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And just haven't, haven't come to me.
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I don't, I don't make arrows. I don't want to make arrows.
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I just like doing what I do. Yeah.
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Any particular style of bow build that you resonate with
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more? Yeah, I do a lot of a lot of
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shorter recurves. I'll grab AU one that I just
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finished off the wall. So I do, I tend to not put
24:19
anything on my handles and it's mostly just just kind of like
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around and what feels comfortable.
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And then I tend to do like a little bit of a recurve at the
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end and some pretty, I can figure out how to get that to
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show like some pretty, pretty narrow tips on it.
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Yeah. It tends to be kind of 6264
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inches, something in something in that range.
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What kind of draw away? About 40 lbs, which probably
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overbows me a little bit, but it's just in my in my mind.
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I just don't like making really light bows.
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Yeah. And then to do the recurves, are
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you steam bending? Boiling.
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What are you? Yeah, I I steam bend the
25:06
recurves usually, yeah. Yeah.
25:09
You ever have any issues with that?
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I mean, occasionally I think everyone has alignment issues
25:15
for you end up having to do it and you think you're going to
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nail it first time through and now you're committed, but you're
25:22
going to end up having to fix the alignment for the next 4
25:26
hours. Yeah.
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And then what about tips where I see you're doing a lot of
25:31
hardwood overlays? Yeah, so a lot of hardwood
25:34
overlays. What I've been into lately is
25:38
kind of like this Ebony and then I've been putting like a zebra
25:43
wood or like a more Brownwood over the top.
25:45
Yeah. So two different ones for the
25:48
tip. That's beautiful.
25:49
Yeah. And then it's all I've gotten
25:54
into hide glue to keep it all together instead of doing super
25:57
glue. I had a had super glue fail a
26:00
few times. I haven't had hide glue fail
26:02
yet. Really.
26:03
OK. Yeah, I feel like it makes a
26:06
better like a cleaner glue line where it can just be invisible.
26:13
And then you originally said you got into this because you wanted
26:16
to shoot a bow. So how has your archery come
26:20
along? Is that something that is
26:22
valuable for you? It is.
26:25
I will shoot a new bow and test it and see how it's doing, get a
26:31
couple 100 errors through it and then I might not touch it again.
26:35
I don't shoot all that often. The part that really I got
26:43
attached to was the the building and the problem solving.
26:50
Something goes wrong. How am I?
26:52
How am I going to fix this? How am I going to overcome that
26:56
and still make a work of art out of it?
27:01
That's a great philosophy. So you got into it because of
27:05
your desire for archery, but now the bow take, bow building has
27:09
taken over. That's that's very normal.
27:11
Yeah, I was. I was right that doing the
27:15
archery part of it was something I was just going to do a couple
27:17
times and put down. Well now you do it a couple of
27:21
times every time you build a new bow.
27:23
So you so you never go out and just grab a bow and some arrows
27:28
and shoot. Rarely.
27:31
It's usually. Usually it'll be a friend that
27:35
wants to shoot and so string up some bows and do it.
27:39
But yeah, by myself, just for no reason.
27:46
Not that often, yeah. So what has kind of on a more
27:53
philosophical level, what is bow building brought into your life?
27:57
Yeah. So for me, I'd say I'd say it's
28:03
an escape in a way where I can just kind of focus on what I'm
28:09
doing with my hands and get away from the day-to-day of life.
28:17
Like if something's stressing me out, I can just push it aside
28:22
and just kind of be in the moment working on this bow and
28:29
making making it the best I can make it.
28:33
And it's just relaxing for me. It's kind of therapeutic and
28:41
meditative for me in a way. Are there any challenges that
28:47
you still find that bow after bow seem to be the at the
28:51
forefront of your bow building? I, I think each build has its
29:02
own unique challenges and I either something will happen
29:09
during the build or, you know, I'll decide what would happen if
29:13
I spliced in walnut tips. And so I'll go down a rabbit
29:16
hole figuring out, OK, how do I, how do I need to do that?
29:20
How can I make that work on a 62 inch Renault board?
29:25
What can I do? And so sometimes I'll go out of
29:28
my way to find challenges. I just like pushing the envelope
29:32
and just doing things a little bit different.
29:34
Like I've, I've made a Penobscot.
29:36
I'm probably going to make another one of those sooner than
29:40
later. Sorry, you made a what?
29:42
The like the double bows from the the Indian tribe up in Maine
29:50
that used to make them. So it's like 2 blows that go
29:53
together. That's cool.
29:57
How does that one shoot? It's the same as any other.
30:01
I'd love to say that there's like something great about the
30:05
performance of these, but this one shoots about pretty, pretty
30:09
average. Was that a challenging bill?
30:14
It, it was, I would say one of the things I learned along the
30:19
way was when you put that second like that little helper bow on
30:23
it, it changes the tailor of the main bow and it kind of forces
30:27
it out. And so with the with the one
30:30
bow, I have to really tailor the inner limbs hard and kind of do
30:37
them a little bit more aggressively than I probably
30:40
like because I know when I put that helper bow on, it's going
30:44
to change the shape and it's going to look a little bit
30:46
different. So when you say tiller hard you
30:48
actually put a lot of bend in the middle section because then
30:51
the helper helper bow will stiffen it out.
30:53
Yep, exactly. And what?
30:55
What did you say that's called? It's from, I don't know if I'm
30:58
saying the word right, but it's from the like the Penobscot
31:02
Indian trunk. Then up in Maine, there's a
31:07
controversy about whether they actually used it or if it was
31:12
invented by a man who claimed to be a member of the tribe.
31:18
Around like 1900. He was going around and touring
31:21
the country. And if he's actually just
31:24
invented it, but I don't, I don't have an opinion on if they
31:30
use it or not. I'm not big on history, but.
31:35
So you haven't found any sort of mechanical or performance
31:37
advantage and therefore it I guess that it seemed kind of
31:41
strange to add the extra complication into a bow building
31:45
if it's not adding to performance?
31:47
Yeah. Well, what I what I think it
31:48
does is this flow on the top here kind of takes that tension
31:55
and it moves the neutral plane up.
31:57
And so I think you could use like a weaker in tension wood
32:03
for the bow and it'll it'll survive or maybe it wouldn't
32:06
have. Right.
32:08
What is that one made from? That is, that one's red on, so
32:12
it is not a tension wing would. Yeah, both of those are red on.
32:17
Yeah, that's really cool. So you said you went down a
32:21
rabbit hole to do that and to do some solve some other problems.
32:25
Do you have any particular resources outside like mention
32:28
the permit of Archer forum? Is that still exist on you?
32:31
Either OK. Yeah, I, I can't tell you how
32:35
many bowyers that I've talked to have cited that as being one of
32:38
their main resources. I don't think I've ever been on
32:40
there, which I don't. I don't know why.
32:42
I should probably look it up right now.
32:45
Yeah, there are some fantastic bowyers that have gone through
32:50
there. Like I, I know you've
32:53
interviewed a few people that were initially learned and grew
32:59
on that site just like I did before COVID.
33:02
It used to be a magazine that started in like the 1980s.
33:06
And that forum was the forum that went along with the
33:09
magazine. And they had, they had like a
33:14
bow of the month contest where you would have some really
33:18
incredible bowyers that were making these bows and entering
33:22
the men. And they were, they're
33:26
incredible. They were, they were inspiring
33:28
from you. That was a big, big goal for me
33:30
was can I get to that point where I could actually win a
33:35
month? And that was, I've built for six
33:43
or seven years probably before I ever put a bow on the site and
33:47
entered it and ended up winning it.
33:51
And it was nice the moment for me where it was like, wow, I'm
33:57
pretty good at this now. I'm pretty.
33:59
I'm pretty OK. That's awesome.
34:01
So then you were one of those inspiring the younger
34:03
generation. Yeah.
34:05
And that was that was like one of those challenges I gave
34:08
myself. Like, can I get to that point?
34:10
Yeah. And then after COVID, the
34:13
magazine went away. I think the printing costs got
34:16
out of control. They tried going digital but a
34:19
digital magazine for people that build for primitive bows didn't.
34:25
Didn't work great and so it went away for a while.
34:30
It is under new ownership. I am blanking on the man's name.
34:36
He goes by Sleek on the site. I've heard a couple interviews
34:44
he's done before. I think he probably would be a
34:46
pretty good guest to have in the future and to try to promote
34:51
that website and bring it back to what it what it used to
34:53
because it was it was an incredible place of knowledge.
34:57
Yeah, it has it slowed down then in your experience?
35:05
I think a lot of things have moved to Facebook.
35:06
I think a lot of there's a lot more avenues than there used to
35:10
be when it was at its peak. Yeah, and I, I just pulled it up
35:18
on my browser and I guess the reason I've I've seen it.
35:20
So I guess I have, I've been there.
35:21
I've seen it, but I just, I never use forums.
35:23
So I guess that's the reason why I've never been there.
35:25
I would much rather pick up a magazine like you said.
35:30
But yeah, digital wise, I just, that's not where I want to find
35:33
information. Is that where you get most of
35:36
your information from online resources?
35:38
Or do you have bowyers who have helped teach you or inspire you
35:43
or books other than the Bowyer? Well the book traditional
35:46
Bowyers Bibles are all obviously amazing, but any other
35:49
resources? Yes, I that, that form honestly
35:55
is probably my go to for any kind of vision I have because
35:58
it's it's been around for 30 years probably.
36:02
So like anything I run into, someone else has run into it and
36:06
someone has solved it. And the Bowyers, that place used
36:13
to have, were incredible. They're like best in the world,
36:16
incredible. And so I, I do a lot there.
36:21
Bowyer's Bible. I've read most filmmaking books
36:26
out there. I'd say the Bowyers Bible.
36:30
I've come back to a lot and yeah, those forums occasionally.
36:37
I've reached out to a couple people with ideas.
36:42
Steven Bieber would be 1. He's amazing.
36:45
Yeah, but for for the most part, I know on my on my own little
36:50
island. Yeah, that's great.
36:53
Seems to seems to be the way you want it, just to have your own
36:56
therapy and meditative practice. Yeah, exactly.
36:59
And I don't, you know, I don't make a career out of it or
37:03
anything. And I, I tend to give them away,
37:08
OK, I limit myself to this, this one bow rack that you can kind
37:11
of see the corner of over there and that's it.
37:15
And so if I make a new one and I want to keep it, then a
37:19
different one has to leave. I love that that that's really
37:23
cool because it's I think that's a bit unusual.
37:26
A lot of Bowers have a lot of bows, but it's really cool that
37:31
you're giving them away. When I was working with Phil
37:34
Steinhauser of Rockhouser Archery and Austria, he gives
37:38
away a lot of his bows. And so I made a bow with him.
37:41
And then I just happened to comment on another bow like, oh,
37:44
that's beautiful. And he said, what's yours now?
37:45
And I was like, no. And that's, that's so generous.
37:48
And you know, a lot of Bowers have had, they are extremely
37:52
generous not only with their knowledge by putting it on
37:56
forums or or chatting with beginner bow ears, but also and
38:00
giving away their bows. It's incredible.
38:05
Yeah, I have people offer to buy a bow and I'll be no, no, no,
38:10
let me let me give you 1. And because, well, if I take
38:15
your money, then there's going to be expectations about when is
38:19
it going to be finished. And there's, you know, becomes
38:23
that like that customer relationship where now all of a
38:27
sudden I have to have good customer service and I don't
38:33
particularly want to do that. It's not your game.
38:36
That's that's not my game, but if you know, you're like, oh,
38:39
I'm going to make you a bow and I'm going to give it to you and
38:41
it's going to be free If it makes me six months to make this
38:46
Bow Wow like you're getting it for free.
38:49
And if it breaks on day one, Oh well.
38:52
Well, I mean, if it, if it breaks in, I, if I'm making one
38:56
for someone like that, I'm, I'm not going to push the limits.
39:00
And yeah, OK, something that'll break like it's.
39:03
And if it does break like I, I will.
39:05
Give them a new one. Make.
39:06
It right yeah, I I do that for my customer service, but.
39:09
That's awesome. Yeah, but my timeline's too.
39:13
Well, it's a hobby. Is that is that basically what
39:16
do you, what do you see it as a hobby?
39:18
Yeah, no, it's totally a hobby. I tried going out into the
39:24
garage and knocking them out and seeing if I could like really
39:29
make it more like a job. And it's not for me.
39:33
It's, you know, it's like a couple weeks in and it's, I
39:37
don't, I don't love this anymore.
39:39
And it's, I try to have a like a really high standard for myself.
39:45
And once there's those expectations and they need to
39:49
get out the door, then I feel that standard slip and I feel
39:55
that pressure and I don't want to do that.
40:01
Yeah. So my my solution is to give
40:04
them away. Yeah, that's great.
40:06
Do you have other hobbies when you have time?
40:12
Yeah, I. And by the way, there's
40:14
something about that word, even when I say it, I don't like that
40:17
word. I don't know of a better word
40:19
for it, but it just kind of seems to, I don't know, it seems
40:23
to belittle whatever it is a hobby, but I think we put so
40:28
much emphasis in our culture on a profession and having a career
40:32
that hobbies are kind of like seen as just like, well, that's
40:34
cute. And yet it's often these
40:37
hobbies, especially I found in in writing this book and
40:40
interviewing so many bowyers. It's the hobbies that keep
40:43
people going. It's what Stokes the fire and
40:46
keeps them passionate. And often it's the career or the
40:48
profession that they need the hobby to get that escape from
40:52
and get balance from. Yeah, exactly.
40:55
And I just. I just can't think of a better
40:56
word, so if you have one let me know.
40:59
I I don't have a better. Passion projects, I guess.
41:01
Where you've talked to, because there is that that pressure to
41:05
like have a profession. I'm sure where you talked to,
41:10
they've all had that same consideration I did about do I
41:13
want to make this my job or do I know?
41:16
And I'm sure like everyone, everyone I know has you have
41:23
that thought and you make that debate and you make a decision.
41:27
But it's because there's so much pressure in our society to make
41:35
it your profession and make what you love your profession, when a
41:41
lot of times I don't. I don't think that's the best
41:43
route. I'd rather have a have a job
41:46
that with a good work life balance and then half the things
41:51
that I enjoy doing outside of that and then I get to keep
41:55
enjoying them. Yeah, well, it's I think it was
41:59
Phil Steinhauser who said that he he was at that crossroads
42:02
too, deciding if he wanted to make bow building a profession
42:06
when it was his hobby. And he said he didn't, he chose
42:09
not to. And now he looks back gratefully
42:11
on him because he said if I had made Bo building my profession,
42:15
I would just have to find a new hobby.
42:17
And so, yeah, it totally makes sense.
42:19
He could if you keep making your hobby into your career or then
42:21
you run out of hobbies or you have to find another hobby.
42:24
So do you have any teachers outside of like Steven Bieber
42:29
through anything else that you've discovered?
42:32
Any other favorite books? When actually before we will
42:36
come back there. You can answer that.
42:37
But then I want to come back. I actually asked you about other
42:39
hobbies. And then I, I didn't actually
42:41
get to that point, but yeah. Any any other books that you
42:43
recommend or that have really resonated with you let.
42:47
Me let me pull up my Kindle library real quick because I I
42:53
do read everything remotely like before bed.
42:56
Did you read Dean Torges Hunting the Osage Bell?
43:01
I haven't read that one. I haven't either.
43:03
I keep hearing good things about it so I need to track it down
43:05
when I get back to Canada. I love literature and that
43:08
sounds like it's more of a a piece of literature than just a
43:13
how to. OK, yeah, so one of the ones
43:17
that I've liked a lot, like I'm kind of getting ready to go down
43:22
like a hornbow as rabbit hole. I think that's nice.
43:26
That next one, Adam Kerpowitz wrote the Ottoman Turkish bow's
43:32
book. It's like the.
43:34
I think it's like the definitive guide on making them at this
43:37
point, the expert on it. So that one I picked up a lot of
43:43
lot of things from that even like as far as how I'm doing my
43:47
hide blue, the tips and it's I think that's a a great resource
43:54
there. And then, yeah, I think.
44:01
That's it. That's a big undertaking.
44:02
That's a whole nother dimension of bow building.
44:04
It is. That's like the violence of bow
44:07
building, I guess to You're really moving into a whole
44:10
different territory. Yeah, So the idea I've had
44:16
behind that is can I take this double bell and, you know, if
44:24
the tension's actually better here, can I make a miniature
44:28
version of this? Because I, I lived in Florida.
44:30
Community's terrible. You don't want to send you back
44:34
Bell in Florida. Yeah.
44:36
So can I use this system in place of sinew, have horn on the
44:42
back and make? Horn on the back.
44:49
Sorry, horn on the horn on the belly.
44:50
OK, yeah, horn on the belly and make my own kind of composite
44:58
that doesn't use the sinew and probably isn't as sensitive to
45:03
the humidity. So are you talking about using?
45:06
So I forget the word for that type of bow.
45:07
Again, are you talking about putting a mini bow on it?
45:10
Yeah, having like this the knob sky with like the little hopper
45:14
bow on the front tension and then having horn on the belly
45:18
for the compression. So what what?
45:20
What would the back of the larger bow be?
45:24
Just what just, I think it's going to be white oak just,
45:28
yeah, see what I can do with white oak and that kind of that
45:34
kind of process. I don't know, I, I don't know
45:36
them bored and it'd be a spectacular failure.
45:40
But I don't know. I've always wanted to kind of
45:47
make my own mark and kind of come up with something that's a
45:50
little bit different that no one's done.
45:54
And, you know, maybe that'll be it.
45:57
Yeah. Maybe.
45:58
Maybe it'll fail, I don't know. Well, if it does, you'll
46:01
probably try again and try again until you get it.
46:04
Maybe. Do you have any horn that you're
46:05
going to use? Yeah, I do.
46:08
I have some horn sitting sitting out in the garage.
46:12
It's been, I've had this idea for a couple years and just
46:15
haven't haven't gotten to it. Hadn't quite figured out what
46:19
would I wanted to use. And what kind of horn is it?
46:23
It's the, it's like a, like a water Buffalo horn.
46:28
I don't, I don't remember because it's been sitting there
46:31
for a couple years now. It's ready.
46:35
You might not be, but it's ready.
46:37
OK wow, that's cool. Some people are doing horn bows
46:41
without sinu backing and instead using bamboo.
46:45
Stefan Tim a bamboo bows makes it a beautiful Orion boat with a
46:48
bamboo backing. So definitely there's some
46:52
people playing around with different mediums to try to
46:55
figure it out. In Costa Rica, I'm it's so humid
46:58
here that there's no possible way I could have a Sunubo here.
47:01
Like a lot of the wood that I have here fails as it is.
47:03
So, but that's an amazing undertaking.
47:08
Good luck with that. Thank you.
47:10
Yeah, it's, we'll see how. We'll see how it works.
47:13
You know, it's, I think there's a world where I can make a short
47:19
bow that's pretty cool doing it, but and right now it just loads
47:24
in my head. That's awesome.
47:28
And so back to the question that I didn't give you time to answer
47:31
about any other passion projects or.
47:34
Yeah, I I paint a little bit. I go to the gym whenever I can.
47:43
I tend to be just outside a lot. I get I get cooped up and go a
47:49
little stir crazy pretty easy. So when when I've got the
47:54
opportunity, I'm usually I'm usually outside and away from a
47:57
screen and doing anything else. Anything in particular?
48:08
Some hiking, camping. I fly fish a little bit.
48:14
Yeah, not, not particularly well.
48:18
And are you tying your own flies?
48:20
Yeah, yeah, I do. You like using your hands?
48:25
Yeah, I I think I'm better at the fly tying than the actual
48:30
fly fishing. Well, it sounds like maybe
48:35
you're a better Bowyer than a Archer.
48:38
Yeah, yeah, that do. Yeah, it's the art of the
48:43
passion for the making part of it, which is really cool.
48:46
Yeah, I enjoyed the making and just focusing and honestly with
48:54
Bell building a lot of it's just the problem solving for me.
49:00
Have you worked with any unusual woods?
49:03
I've worked with like a lot of a lot of the standard typical
49:07
woods. I've worked with Alan, I've
49:08
worked with Osage U, Hickory, Hackberry, red oak, walnut.
49:21
Yeah, I have. I have a few staves out there of
49:26
other random woods that I haven't tackled yet, but I've
49:29
just kind of kind of an eye on them.
49:31
But yeah, it's I haven't experimented too much with
49:36
different woods that, you know, I guess it's just because I only
49:40
do a couple a year that I end up just picking the best of what I
49:48
have and working with that. And then for the problem
49:52
solving, does that apply to other areas of life too?
49:55
Yeah, yeah. My, my favorite thing I do at
50:00
work is when like I, I'm coding something out and trying to
50:07
figure out why is it working or I see something weird in the
50:12
data and I'm trying to figure out why it's that like that.
50:17
Critical thinking is what I enjoy.
50:21
Like a lot of times with build building, I'll have a problem or
50:25
something I'm thinking about and I'll, it's what I'll be thinking
50:28
about when I'm going to bed is how do I, how do I fix this?
50:32
What do I do? And so in work, how much is AI
50:37
changing now what you do at work?
50:42
It's a very different topic. Yeah, I, I think AI is overhyped
50:48
a lot like the people saying that everyone's going to be
50:51
unemployed. They always own AI companies
50:54
that are trying to convenient pump up their value.
50:58
And it's, I would say for the most part, a year ago this was
51:05
definitely true. A year ago, AI was definitely
51:09
the lazy employee that just tried to like BS you and what
51:16
would have been fired. I think now it's getting a
51:22
little bit better. I use it for some bug fixing
51:27
with code and things like that. But it's I don't think it's at
51:31
that point where it's really ready to replace people like
51:36
despite the hype. And that says a lot because
51:39
you're already in the computer industry.
51:40
So that would seemingly be the first industry probably to
51:44
topple to AI. Yeah, I think at the moment it's
51:49
more, it's more of a tool to use, kind of like how computers
51:55
didn't really replace people, but they made them more
52:00
productive and let them focus their time in other places.
52:05
I think that's where it's at at the moment.
52:07
But he knows where it is in a year, five years.
52:11
Yeah, yeah. And what are some of your future
52:15
plans with, if any, with the bow building, the violin building?
52:20
I don't, I don't know. Right now I'm just.
52:23
You just moved into a new new home, new state.
52:26
Into a new home I'm, you know, trying to survive the toddler
52:32
years and get her off to get her off to elementary school in a
52:37
year or two. And I'm just trying to build the
52:44
best bows that I can and just seeing where it takes me.
52:51
And you know, I, I feel like I've hit that point where I've
52:55
gotten pretty good for a long, long time.
52:58
I didn't work with you at all. Like I built a lot of board bows
53:03
before I ever touched the save because I felt like I wasn't
53:07
ready. And especially with you, because
53:10
it, it grows so slow. It's not every source, it's
53:14
going to be replenished in my life, you know, like that that I
53:19
had on the camera earlier. It's maybe 40 rings to an inch,
53:25
like it's a couple couple 100 years old and to make a bow or
53:32
two out of it. And so I've even when I bought a
53:38
couple use staves, they sat in the garage for years because I I
53:41
felt I wasn't ready. I wanted to like honor the wood.
53:46
I wanted to do right by the wood and really feel like I'm going
53:52
to make something that's going to be an heirloom, like, you
53:57
know, my daughter's going to want this in the future or, you
54:03
know, even even if she doesn't like someone out there is going
54:05
to be like, wow, the craftsmanship on this is
54:11
amazing. This this is a work of art like
54:14
that. That was my motivation.
54:18
And it's like, I hate seeing like brand new bowyers that are
54:25
like making their very first bill on their own.
54:29
We were just like me with no wood skills.
54:30
They're definitely going to make them mess this up and they're
54:35
using like such valuable natural resources for something that's
54:41
going to be job. You know, it's kind of why I
54:44
started building some more like higher end red oak board bills
54:49
just to kind of show that perspective that like, hey, if
54:55
you've got the skill set, you can make something really nice
54:59
out of this easily replenishable wood that you can pick up
55:06
anywhere for cheap. And you don't.
55:08
You don't need to spend $300 on a you save goes go down to Home
55:14
Depot with 20 bucks. Yeah, yeah.
55:17
I love that reverence for it and kind of I'll just give you
55:24
another perspective on you would especially Pacific U.
55:28
It's being decimated, absolutely decimated, and then it's not for
55:32
it's not by bowyers. Used to be in England, EU was
55:36
pretty much decimated for bow making, but now it's being
55:39
decimated in the logging industry and it's a waste
55:41
product. They just cut it down or it gets
55:44
knocked over when they fell. The lumber would, but EU is just
55:47
being totally wasted. So when I was with Jamie
55:50
McDonald most recently, I guess last August, we drove around
55:56
through his favorite forest where there's loads of U and
56:01
it's every day the clear cutting goes another 50 meters, another
56:06
100 meters in and it's a whole side of a mountain that's just
56:09
being clear cut. And EU is just on the ground
56:13
being totally wasted. So it's really frustrating.
56:16
And I share with you the same reverence for all of trees and
56:19
all of these amazing Beau woods. And you know, unfortunately you
56:23
is just not it's not valued enough.
56:27
And so it's just being destroyed carelessly.
56:32
Yeah. And it's, it's tough and like in
56:36
that industry too, the IT would be hard to do you on like a
56:42
commercial scale for bow makers because you'd have to have
56:46
someone that knows what's bow and what's not.
56:48
Like, the reality is, is that most of it is not.
56:52
No, on a commercial scale, yeah, it'd be so.
56:54
And that's why the wood is not valued, because commercially
56:57
it's not valuable enough. And in British Columbia anyway.
57:01
And this was the case when I started bow making probably
57:06
around the same time as you did, maybe a little bit before that.
57:08
But apparently you couldn't get permits as an artisan to go
57:12
harvest a single tree, even though it is in a zone that's
57:16
slated for clear cutting. And in a month's time or a
57:20
year's time, that tree is going to be destroyed.
57:22
But they don't give permits for artisans to go on and say here,
57:25
you know, this is a tree I'm going to make a beautiful bow
57:27
from and have this heirloom object that someone can
57:30
appreciate and have forever. So it's it's a frustrating
57:35
conundrum. Yep, it's.
57:39
It's one that needs someone with good problem solving skills like
57:41
yourself. Yeah, well, I don't, I don't
57:46
know if I have the solution to that.
57:48
I mean it's. Yeah, no, of course it's, yeah,
57:54
it's very challenging and obviously not just Pacific, you
57:57
know, it's happening with so many different resources and not
58:01
just trees either, but yeah. And where I am here in Costa
58:04
Rica, it's to see these massive old growth trees being cut down
58:11
just because it's in the way of someone's proposed garage or
58:16
pavilion or yogashala or whatever it is.
58:18
It's it's a tragedy and it just happens on a daily basis.
58:24
Is that is there a lot of a lot of development where you are?
58:28
Yes, a lot of residential development, not a lot of
58:31
commercial development. Fortunately, it's more of a
58:34
where I am specifically, the roads to get into it are
58:38
atrocious, which I'm really pleased with.
58:41
So everyone has to have very well kept 4 wheel drives with
58:45
snorkels and suspension and big tires.
58:49
And even still, like our car, our tracks are breaking down all
58:52
the time. Like the maintenance on vehicles
58:54
here is crazy, but that's what you need.
58:57
And so to get by on a day-to-day basis, you need to have a
59:02
serious vehicle. And tourists don't have that.
59:05
Tourists are flying into one of the two cities and they're
59:08
getting a little what? Whatever he got.
59:13
And yeah, that little Hyundai. And they don't do so well when
59:17
people get them here and so and. Even while you drive by and
59:21
you're. They just, we don't get them
59:23
much. And during the dry season, maybe
59:25
the dry season, you're not going to get stuck.
59:27
But the roads are still atrocious.
59:29
But it keeps all the buses out, all the tour buses out.
59:31
So most of the development is people who want to live a
59:35
quieter life. And it's kind of ironic because
59:39
we're all flocking to one place and building houses.
59:42
So it's yeah. But it's most people come here
59:46
for the surf and it's all a part of our coastline is all
59:49
protected. And so it's a very unique place.
59:52
We have probably, I don't know, at least 10, I would say at
59:58
least 10 kilometers of coast that are fully protected because
1:00:01
it's a turtle sanctuary. And so there's no buildings
1:00:04
whatsoever on the directly on the coast.
1:00:07
And so that's really cool and pretty unusual, but.
1:00:11
So are you a big surfer? Yeah, every day, a couple times
1:00:16
a day if I can. Yeah, It's, it's, I couldn't
1:00:20
imagine living in a place like this and not surfing, but it's
1:00:24
just because that's one of my maybe my biggest passion in
1:00:27
life, so. Yeah, my family is in Cocoa
1:00:33
Beach, FL. My my older brother actually
1:00:35
used to be a professional surfer.
1:00:37
Really. Yeah.
1:00:39
That's awesome. Yeah.
1:00:41
I'm not at that level and don't ever intend to, but I just, I
1:00:44
love being out there every day. Do you surf?
1:00:47
No surfing was one of those things where tried it a couple
1:00:52
times and wasn't for me and instantly dropped it and wasn't
1:00:56
wasn't up for the challenge. Yeah, and does your brother
1:00:59
still surf? He does.
1:01:01
Yeah, he still does. He lives out in California now.
1:01:04
He's still amazingly good. He's so talented.
1:01:10
That's awesome. Yeah.
1:01:12
It's, I think it's like any passions once, once you have the
1:01:16
opportunity to stoke the fire. Like for me, I don't, I don't
1:01:21
see myself ever stopping until I physically can't do it.
1:01:25
So it's I feel pretty, pretty blessed to be where I am, living
1:01:29
where I am, so I can do it so regularly.
1:01:31
And this is a year round destination for surfing.
1:01:33
So pretty much every day of the year there's a wave, a good wave
1:01:37
to be found somewhere on one of within a either a bike ride or a
1:01:42
walk or a short drive. Yeah, it's really cool.
1:01:49
Well, thank you. It's been nice getting to know
1:01:51
you. Yeah, absolutely.
1:01:54
Thank you for, you know, reaching out and inviting me to
1:01:57
do the podcast. My pleasure.
1:01:59
Yeah, well, it came across your site a while ago.
1:02:02
Kept seeing some beautiful bows that you were putting out.
1:02:04
So wanted to learn a bit more from you, pick your brain, see
1:02:09
how you're creating these amazing works of art.
1:02:12
And thank you. Yeah.
1:02:13
Thanks for sharing it with us today.
1:02:15
Do you want anyone to find you anywhere?
1:02:19
If so, where might that be? Yeah, sure.
1:02:22
So the the only social media I have would be Instagram name.
1:02:29
There's Erica AIRKAH and that's that's it.
1:02:38
Yeah, I really should be better about posting.
1:02:42
I'm going to I'm going to try. I just finished up a new boat
1:02:45
here in the last week and so I'm planning to start posting some
1:02:50
pictures of that and get working on to the next one.
1:02:53
Great. Well, thank you.
1:02:54
I look forward to seeing more of them.
1:02:57
Perfect. Well, thank you so much.
1:02:58
You're welcome. Thanks for listening to Project
1:03:07
Quiver on Salish Wolf. Follow our journey on Instagram
1:03:10
and YouTube at Project Quiver Official as we discover the
1:03:13
world's most extraordinary traditional bow years, and join
1:03:15
our newsletter at projectquiver.com.
1:03:18
Quiver, The Art of Life through Bow Craft, our photographic and
1:03:22
narrative exploration of traditional bow carving
1:03:24
published by Trope, will be available in fall 2026.
1:03:28
We are honored to share with you the beauty, tradition, and magic
1:03:31
of the bow and arrow. The book is Quiver.
1:03:34
The journey is Project Quiver. This is the Salish Wolf podcast.