Latest / Why We Do What We Do / Functional Analysis pt. 2

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Functional Analysis pt. 2 · Why We Do What We Do

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: You're listening to why we do what we do? Welcome
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: to why we do what we do. I am your
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: automatically reinforced host, Abraham, and I'm.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: Your alone condition Shane All.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: There's so many problems with the way I describe myself.
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  Speaker 1: That's okay, We're moving on. We are a psychology podcast.
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  Speaker 1: We talk about the things that humans and non human
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  Speaker 1: animals do. And this is a part two episode. We
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  Speaker 1: have been talking about something inside of behavior science in
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: which an assessment is conducted to attempt to determine why
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  Speaker 1: certain behaviors happen, particularly when there are people who can't
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  Speaker 1: just say why those behaviors happen, and so they conduct
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  Speaker 1: some kind of an assessment to try and learn what
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  Speaker 1: is going on for those individuals. It's called a functional analysis.
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  Speaker 1: And so if you did not hear the first part,
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  Speaker 1: we dig a lot into the history, concepts, a little
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  Speaker 1: bit of jargon, and the foundational and seminal study that
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  Speaker 1: kicked off this. So if you do not hear that part,
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  Speaker 1: I do recommend checking it out. We'll do a brief
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  Speaker 1: recap at the beginning of this discussion, so in case
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  Speaker 1: you don't remember or you haven't heard it, you'll at
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  Speaker 1: least have a little bit of context to help set
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  Speaker 1: up for this part because we're going to be building
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  Speaker 1: off of that discussion today.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, so yeah, we'll give
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  Speaker 2: you the ins and out and kind of where we're
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  Speaker 2: at leading up to all the cool new stuff that's
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  Speaker 2: going on.
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  Speaker 1: Right. So, if you're joining us for the first time,
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: then welcome. I do recommend you go back and check
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: out that episode and then you'll be joining us for
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: maybe the second time. But either way, you found yourself
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: here and I appreciate you being here. If you're a
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: returning person, thank you for coming back. And if you
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: like to support us, and you haven't done that already,
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: you can leave us a rating and review, like subscribe,
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: tell a friend, join us on Patreon. I'll talk more
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: about those things at the end of our discussion today.
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: But this is a part two, but it still comes
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: out on a different day of the week than Part one.
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  Speaker 1: Matter of fact, this one comes out on August fifth,
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  Speaker 1: So Happy Green Peppers Day.
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: Yes, of course, love Green Peppers. It is International Alberino Day.
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: What does that mean?
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: No idea. We're gonna leave it at what it is,
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: just like cheese Sacrifice Day.
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: It's okay, very good. It is International Traffic Light Day.
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: I have fast. It's National Oyster Day.
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: M go support your local oyster by giving it.
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: Go pet your oysters.
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: You'll plus your oysters. All right. National Psychiatric Technician Appreciation Day.
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: Well that feels. That feels very relevant to our topic.
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: Yes it does. So does National Underwear Day.
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: Nice. And it is work like a dog Day, which
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: is to say, lay on a couch, chew a bone,
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: take a nap. Yes, have someone take you out to
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: go poop in the yard.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, exactly.
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  Speaker 1: That is working like a dog.
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  Speaker 2: All right.
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  Speaker 1: Anyway, we don't just talk about holidays. We also talk
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: about we don't science things, and we don't poop in
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: you know, well we don't. Maybe some people have listened
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  Speaker 1: to us. Probably not, Yeah, some people do it. We
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  Speaker 1: as a species. Okay, let's do a brief recap. So,
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  Speaker 1: as I mentioned, we've been describing in this discussion so
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  Speaker 1: far something called the functional analysis. What that is, where
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  Speaker 1: it comes from? And so as a brief background here,
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  Speaker 1: long long ago in behavior science, calling something a functional
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  Speaker 1: analysis was more like a conceptual exercise to just try
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  Speaker 1: and like think through what are the circumstances, certain classes
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  Speaker 1: of behaviors tended to occurb. That was kind of all
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  Speaker 1: that it was. But then at the time also you
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  Speaker 1: had people who had disabilities. Some of them were very
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  Speaker 1: impacted by those disabilities that had meant a lot of
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  Speaker 1: limitations for them. They were hospitalized, they were lobottomized, they
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  Speaker 1: were medicated into a coma basically, and along came behavior
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  Speaker 1: analysts behavior as scientists who are doing our behavior modifiers
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  Speaker 1: there was kind of a more popular name at the time,
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  Speaker 1: and they're like, well, we can use rewards and punishments
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  Speaker 1: to direct these behaviors to do these other things. Those
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  Speaker 1: kind of where things started before there was sort of
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  Speaker 1: a more assessment based functional analysis.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, and then around the same time you had Iwata
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  Speaker 2: and friends as well as car and Durand started developing
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  Speaker 2: a technology for us to be able to critically evaluate
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  Speaker 2: and really deep dive into the conditions under which this
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  Speaker 2: certain type of behavior occurred. And they looked at the
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  Speaker 2: conditions before and after a behavior occurred, and they looked
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  Speaker 2: at isolating those as much as possible. Now, Card and
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  Speaker 2: Durand is the nineteen eighty five article that kind of
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  Speaker 2: started to really kind of evaluate this and develop a technology.
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  Speaker 2: But this was also in development in nineteen eighty two
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  Speaker 2: with Brian Iwata and his friends, and so they came
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  Speaker 2: up with kind of what we understand today is the
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  Speaker 2: gold standard of a functional analysis, which has multiple conditions,
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  Speaker 2: and what it does is it looks at setting up
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  Speaker 2: a circumstance for behavior to possibly occur and then delivering
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  Speaker 2: some outcome as a result of that behavior occurring and
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  Speaker 2: seeing if that influences behavior in some ways. And they
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  Speaker 2: did this with really three different types of outcomes. It
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  Speaker 2: was either positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, or we don't know
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  Speaker 2: what we're doing or what's going on as behavior, so
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  Speaker 2: we're gonna we're gonna see this play out commission and
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  Speaker 2: it changed the world. It changed the world to be
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  Speaker 2: par analysis in ways that we cannot possibly begin to enumerate.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, we could possibly begin to, but that's as
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  Speaker 1: far as we make it. Before we were a live
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  Speaker 1: well and that's another episode in the bank. So yeah, yeah, yeah,
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  Speaker 1: it was very profound. And yeah, just as you said,
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  Speaker 1: I think an important thing then maybe a lot of
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  Speaker 1: people don't necessarily think about with respect to the functional
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  Speaker 1: analysis is it was essentially these behaviors that are happening,
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  Speaker 1: which in the original study was was primarily self injury,
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  Speaker 1: is like self harm behaviors. They're either happening because there's
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  Speaker 1: some positive reinforcement for it, there's some negative reinforcement for it,
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  Speaker 1: or there's some self sensory stimulation that is happening as
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  Speaker 1: an outcome for it. That was the hypothesis that drove
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  Speaker 1: the development of the framework for that assessment. It's like,
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  Speaker 1: let's create those conditions see when the behavior occurs, so
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  Speaker 1: we now understand why the behavior occurs, right and with
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  Speaker 1: the technology developed by car and Durand who conceptualized these
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  Speaker 1: behaviors as a form of communication, essentially that these are
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  Speaker 1: people who are saying, they were trying to communicate, we
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  Speaker 1: need something. We don't know how to ask for what
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  Speaker 1: we need, but we do need it, and right now
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  Speaker 1: the way that we've learned to get it is doing
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  Speaker 1: these types of behaviors, and they're saying, well, okay, once
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  Speaker 1: we know what you need, we can now teach you
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  Speaker 1: to ask for that in a different way. And so
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  Speaker 1: that was the intervention that was born out of the assessment,
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  Speaker 1: and we'll get into those a bit more as later
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  Speaker 1: parts of this discussion. But essentially what we did in
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  Speaker 1: the last episode is describe in fairly great detail how
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  Speaker 1: that experiment was set up, the different conditions, how they worked,
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  Speaker 1: and because it'll be relevant for today, I'll just briefly
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  Speaker 1: describe that in the original assessment, these were fifteen minute
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  Speaker 1: conditions where they rotated between whether they got social disapproval
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  Speaker 1: as a form of positive attention and reinforcement. They got
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  Speaker 1: removal of demands, which was escape from a condition that
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  Speaker 1: was the negative reinforcement or demand condition. They had a
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  Speaker 1: toy play condition, which was essentially a neutral everything is
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  Speaker 1: chill vibes session, and then there was like, yeah, all
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  Speaker 1: by yourself, do you do these self injury behaviors when
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  Speaker 1: just there's no one around to do anything with you
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  Speaker 1: type of thing to try and figure out if that's
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  Speaker 1: the automatic piece. They were fifteen minutes long. They were
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  Speaker 1: usually randomly rotated. Every time that the challenging behavior was observed,
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  Speaker 1: there was a specific type of outcome that was provided
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  Speaker 1: by the person in the room, unless it was two
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  Speaker 1: of those sort of control conditions, the toy player alone,
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  Speaker 1: and that when they observed a higher percentage of intervals
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  Speaker 1: with that self injury, then that indicated that that was
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  Speaker 1: the condition that under which the behavior was most likely
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  Speaker 1: to occur, that was the most likely outcome that that
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  Speaker 1: individual was seeking in those moments, and that was it.
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  Speaker 1: So fifteen in intervals. They were divided up in these ten
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  Speaker 1: second intervals per session, and they repeated each of those
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  Speaker 1: conditions until they either had clear differentiation between the conditions
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  Speaker 1: meaning that the self injury only occurred in one condition,
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  Speaker 1: or they had twelve days of sessions that they had
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  Speaker 1: experienced those conditions. The last part of this then, is
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  Speaker 1: that this study was later republished in nineteen ninety four,
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  Speaker 1: and that was sort of like really kicked off a
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  Speaker 1: lot of new research in this field.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's why the I WANTA study
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  Speaker 2: is often cited as nineteen eighty two slash nineteen ninety four,
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  Speaker 2: because it was published, it was published, it was republished,
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  Speaker 2: and really, I mean, like you said, kicked off a
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  Speaker 2: whole set of research that was specifically focused on functional
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  Speaker 2: equivalents and making sure that we were teaching skills based
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  Speaker 2: on circumstance.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, so that is as much I think of a
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  Speaker 1: nutshell as I can do about the last hour long
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  Speaker 1: discussion that we did Yeah, is there anything that I
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  Speaker 1: missed you felt like was important that we communicate before
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  Speaker 1: we dive into part two.
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  Speaker 2: Let's see, we had some recommendations at the end of it,
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  Speaker 2: which was really nice. We talked about how the current
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: administration is trying to institutionalize people and we don't want
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  Speaker 2: to go back to that because it was bad. No,
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  Speaker 2: I think you covered it. I think we did it.
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  Speaker 1: Great, perfect, Thank you all right? Perfect? So let's go
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  Speaker 1: ahead then, and essentially the next part here is understanding
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  Speaker 1: what happened after that big study sort of came out
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: because there was a lot left to learn and new
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  Speaker 1: challenges faced by people who were at tempting to implement
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  Speaker 1: these types of strategies. But whole what a groundbreaking and
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  Speaker 1: like foundational seminal article this was. It really changed the
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  Speaker 1: name of the game. In this discussion, we'll essentially be
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  Speaker 1: expanding on what came after. So when technology is when
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  Speaker 1: new technologies such as this one emerge, there's often a
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  Speaker 1: substantial interest in determining what we do with this, like
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  Speaker 1: how do we improve it, how do we refine it,
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  Speaker 1: what do we need, what do we not need? How
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  Speaker 1: do we make it more efficient? And they're a hardly
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  Speaker 1: better exams this than there are with functional analyzes, which,
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  Speaker 1: by the way, I forgot to mention this, but we
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: might call them fays because that's a very common way
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  Speaker 1: that they're talked about, is just to abbreviate functional analysis
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  Speaker 1: as FA FA, so you might hear that just to know.
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  Speaker 1: So anyway, there are hardly better examples of the refinement
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: process than is what happened with FAS. So will briefly
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: enumerate some of these refinements and experimental arrangements that have
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  Speaker 1: evolved the implementation standards of this experimental FA and that's
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  Speaker 1: actually that is a qualifier that is sometimes attached to
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  Speaker 1: functional analysis as to call it experimental because it is
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  Speaker 1: set up like an experiment. You have essentially test and
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  Speaker 1: control conditions that are alternated to help establish a pattern
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  Speaker 1: that differentiate data trends in only certain conditions to illustrate
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  Speaker 1: and a numer like help understand what's going on as
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: opposed to just functional analysis, which as we mentioned KITE
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  Speaker 1: maybe could refer to something more conceptual in nature and
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  Speaker 1: not necessarily in experiment. So this is sometimes called an
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  Speaker 1: experimental functional analysis or experimental EFFA.
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I think another term too that we want to
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: make sure that everybody is aware of because I think
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: you said this just now, which was new technologies. When
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  Speaker 2: we talk about technologies, I think people automatically assume that
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: what we're talking about is something like electronic like the
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: advance Secures advice that look a device, And it's really
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: important understand that a technology is also something like something
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  Speaker 2: that we do. Yeah, it's basically like some something new emergency,
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: the sign something that is useful and pragmatic that can
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  Speaker 2: be used to you know, improve somebody's life, change behavior,
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: stuff like that that's also a technology. Like a token
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  Speaker 2: economy is an example of a technology that we use
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  Speaker 2: in behavior analysis because we can take this intervention and
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: we can apply it in a in a different place.
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  Speaker 2: So like I think that, I think that's really valuable
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  Speaker 2: to remind everybody about too, because technology does have its
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: own connotations.
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  Speaker 1: Such a good catch. Yeah, I wasn't thinking about that
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: beer exactly right, that like a strategy is a type
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: of technology. There's it's a it's a different way of
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: doing it, Like there's this whole form of expertise that
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: can go along with a new strategy, a new way
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: of doing things. The antithesis of technolo logical development as ADS.
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: All right, we're back, So we barely started to really
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: get into the new discussion here, but we felt like
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  Speaker 1: it was really important to ensure that we had recapped
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: the foundation. It's been a week since that episode came out.
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: Maybe you're already familiar with this, maybe this is new
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: to you, but we just wanted to make sure we
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: had enough sort of foundation that we could proceed with
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: the next part of this and have that makes sense
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: because it's building on what we've talked about last time.
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: So that took the majority of our initial part here
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: before we had to take our first AD break. But
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: here we are. We're getting into now the new stuff.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, so there are a few major methodological shifts in
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: that PAS that have become essentially standard practice in several
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: other versions of that FAS that have been attempted. So
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: I think it's really important though, Like just because this
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: was done and it was developed and it was incredibly
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: useful at the time that it was developed, doesn't mean
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: it stayed like that, because remember, science does not have
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: a finish line. So we're going to start with some
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: of the major procedural shifts that occurred. So first that
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: we talked about was, and this is really important you
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: brought this up in the recap, is the session length.
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: So in the original study, each condition or sometimes you'll
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: see the term condition and session used interchangeably, but condition
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: is really a better term. But each condition lasted fifteen minutes.
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  Speaker 2: And there was an early attempt in nineteen ninety one
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: by Northrop and friends to streamline the FA process by
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: conducting shorter sessions that were only five minutes long, or
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: shorter conditions that were only five minutes long. However, several
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: different studies attempted shorter session durations, and in nineteen ninety nine,
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: Whillas and i Wata published a study demonstrating that reducing
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: sessions to ten minutes produced identical data to fifteen minutes. Further,
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: reducing sessions to only five minutes yielded only minor discrepancies
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: from the fifteen minute observations. So thus I sow, thus
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: I don't need to say both of those. Thus, most
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: contemporary studies use five minute sessions for each condition, yielding
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: a more efficient procedure and analysis. So basically what this
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: is saying is originally fifteen minutes, we don't need to
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: do fifteen minutes we were able to shorten it.
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it's like we got it down to ten,
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: that already lopped off thirty three percent of the time
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: we were spending, and it turns out we can actually
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: get it down to five. And because that was like,
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: your data were likely to show similar patterns at five
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: minutes as they were at fifteen minutes, I was like
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: that that's a lot more efficient. We can get a
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: lot more done in a lot less time because we
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: apparently don't actually need that much time to do this.
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: So that it was like a really important refinement to
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: determine that they could do that. So it's not that
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: every single study is going to do this, but it
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: is fairly common that if you were to look at
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: a relatively recent study that used a functional analysis as
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: part of their methods, which you will very undoubtedly find
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: if you're looking in behavior analytic research, then it probably
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: used a five minute interval for their functional analysis. Not
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: always right, but a huge amount of the time. Right now,
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: So that was one of the first major changes is
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: that the standard setup was fifteen minutes. Now the standard
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: set up, regardless of anything else you're doing with that
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: function analysis, is probably five minutes right, major caveats in there,
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: we'll get to some of the other refinements that have happened.
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: But a second thing that changed and changed fairly early
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: on in this was the measurement strategy. Now, as we
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: described in the original study, they divided this fifteen minute
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: session into intervals, specifically ten second intervals, and then they
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: calculated the percentage of intervals in which the target behavior occurred. So,
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: just as a quick description of what that meant is like,
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: across fifteen minutes, there was a timer running and every
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: ten seconds they entered a new interval, and if that
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: behavior occurred during the interval, the would essentially fill in
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  Speaker 1: the box to say yes, the behavior occurred, And then
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: they could calculate, of all those ten second intervals in
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: a fifteen minute window, what percentage of those had album
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: that challenging behavior the self harm in the original study occurred. Okay, However,
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: it quickly became apparent that this is not super sensitive
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: to changes in actual frequency. So, for example, let's assume
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: that we are measuring something like self harm and that
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: that behavior occurred once every single second. That would be
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: ten instances of that behavior in a ten second interval,
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: But it would only be recorded as one interval. So
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: imagine we're going to do a five minute session. There
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: are three hundred seconds in a five minute session, meaning
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: that there would be three hundred instances of a behavior
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: that occurred once every second. But what that would show
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: on a interval recording would be one hundred percent of intervals,
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: which is a lot. We understand that's very high. But
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: take this other example. What if that challenging behavior had
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: occurred once every ten seconds, but it occurred once every
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: ten seconds, that would be thirty instances of that behavior.
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: It would also show one hundred percent of intervals. Three
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: hundred and thirty are pretty different numbers.
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: Those are different numbers.
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a wide range for your percentage to show
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: the exact same amount of challenging behavior occur. From thirty
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: times in an observation to three hundred times in observation,
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: that's not very sensitive, right, So essentially, researchers found that
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: counting each instance of behavior that occurred across the entire
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: five minutes and then instead converting the number of instances
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: to a rate per minute, that was a much more
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: sensitive way to measure behavior. So essentially, when they sort
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: of made this discovery of like, look, we can really
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: measure moment to moment changes here that it's going to
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: be a lot more sensitive to trend if we just
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: count every instance and then convert it to account permit it.
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: That became the standard for how people generally conducted these.
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: The overwhelming majority of FA studies published now use a
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: rate permittent instead of the interval recording method because it's
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: so much more sensitive at capturing the changes and rates
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: of those behaviors and the magnitude of the changes in
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: those rates.
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, makes sense. Now. The third change is the condition ordering.
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: So in the original study and for a while, the
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: order in which conditions were presented was either random or
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: quasi random. And there were some exceptions with this, and
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: we'll talk about that in a little bit, but basically
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: it was like, you know, when we talk about the
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: escape alone, play and control conditions, what would happen is
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: they would randomize that. Yeah, so it wouldn't be escape alone,
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: play control, escape, you know, whatever. It would go escape, escape,
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: attention alone. You know, like, it would randomize it in
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: lots of different ways. But in nineteen eighty four, it
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: would suggested that the order in which sequences were presented
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: might be important for obtaining clear results, And finally, in
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: twenty thirteen, a study by Hammond and friends clearly empirically
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: showed that results were clear and obtained more quickly if
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: they were presented in the order ignore, attention, play and demand,
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: So ignore being the alone condition, attention being the social disapproval,
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: play being the toy play that we talked about earlier,
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: and then the band being the escape or demand condition.
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: This has become the generally accepted standard procedure for conducting
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: an FA.
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: Yes, with some exceptions, but yes. Essentially, what they sort
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: of realized was how you end one condition potentially set
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: up how that person was kind of activated to go
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: into the next one, and that you would have some
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: carryover effect if you weren't actually planning these out very
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: strategically right, like what was the mo for one became
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: the setting event for the next one, and so you
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: might accidentally create some artifacts by having the sequence set
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: up to accidentally promote or inhibit the likelihood of some
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: of those behaviors occurring. And so they did an analysis
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: of these fixed versus random patterns and empirically showed, yes,
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: you actually if you do this fixed pattern you are
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: more likely to obtain differentiated results where data were primarily
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: observed in only one condition, and you are more likely
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: to obtain that outcome more quickly than if you had
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: those randomized sequences. And so yeah, it just became like
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: everyone's like, oh great, we'll do that from now on,
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: Like that sequence moving forward makes sense to me perfect
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: And so that's generally the one of the refinements. So
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: essentially the three of you we've numerated so far from
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: the original study. That changed were that they reduced from
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: fifteen minutes to five minutes, They started counting every instance
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: of the behavior and converting that to a rate per minute,
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: and then finally that the order in which they presented
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: the provocative situations became fixed because it allowed for clearer
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: differentiating the results. And that became essentially if you pick
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: up a journal article in the last fifteen years or so,
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: maybe ten years since all these happened, like those will
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: be essentially what you'll see most of the time when
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: you're looking at functional analysis. With a major glaring exception,
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: some people are probably yelling at about their speakers, and
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: we will get to that. I promise, don't worry, don't worry.
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: We'll get in there, okay. But there was one more
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: that I want to discuss. There's a fourth and final
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: major procedural change, and actually it's worth noting, and I
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: understand people will say this. I know this is not
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: one that has been as widely adopted. So where the
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: other three, you'll pick up a study like you will
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: see those three very like arrangements as the new standard
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: for how to do an FA. This one's less consistent,
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: but it is there.
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: It is.
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: It did set the context for a new direction in
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: standard FA procedures, and it has been used in many
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: different settings, so it's like maybe more being adopted. But
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: this is with respect to that alone condition in which
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: the individual was left alone for the duration of that condition,
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: right that we just left them in the room and
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: say what happened? Now, okay. The identified purpose this condition
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: originally was to identify the potential for automatic reinforcement, which
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: is to say, if we're not there, we're not interacting
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: with them, we're not doing anything, and they're still doing
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: that behavior, then that that's probably because there's something self
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: stimulatory about it, there's something they're getting out of it
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: that's just the byproduct of that is a sensory experience potentially,
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: that's what we think. Okay, there's that, so okay. So
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: that was the whole point, right, is that like if
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: we leave them alone, we'll see what happens. There was
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: kind of a problem that actually emerged fairly early on
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: with just leaving a kid alone in this weird austere
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: room like these are almost always set up in like
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: a session environment the majority of the cases, particularly in
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: these studies, where it was like a padded room, and
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: it was because a lot of the time they were
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: engaging in self harm, and so we didn't want to
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: leave them with sharp corners and a lot of things
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: which with which they could injure themselves, and that include
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: hitting their head on the floor, head on the walls,
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: et cetera. And so these were like very sterile, austere,
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: padded environments that were very out of the norm for
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: where that individual spent most of their time, right, And
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: so what happened is they take them into this room
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: and they just leave and like shut the door and
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: basically wait outside the door, so that in case the
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: kid did try and leave most of the time these
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: were kids, by the way, in case the person did
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: try to leave, they could like they wouldn't be able
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: to just run off the property and get hit by
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: a truck or something, so they're like they're still staying
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: by for safety, but for the kid's experience, they're basically
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: alone in a strange room. Well, that can be a weird,
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: distressing environment for a kid to find themselves who already
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: doesn't really understand what's going on. There's a very strange
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: set of people doing a very strange set of things,
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: and now they're just like left alone in a room
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: for a long time, and they're like, what is going
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: on here? I don't like this? And so there was
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: kind of a problem with this idea of them just
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: being left alone in the alone condition because they might
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: actually see a huge spike in a bunch of random behaviors,
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: which could include the self injury behavior that were much
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: more a product of the fact that they were in
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: this weird, distressing environment that they've just been tossed in
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: and left alone, and not having anything to do with
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: something provocative that someone's doing to them or that they
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: want to change or anything. They're just like a very
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: novel place to be that is not very comfortable and
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: strange and unfamiliar, right, And so instead what they did
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: did they switched to that was something that was more
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: like an ignore condition. And so it happened is they
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: basically go in and the person's in the room with
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: them still they just pay no attention to them whatsoever,
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: no matter what they do. Unless it becomes like untenable
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: in the level of danger that is happening, then they
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: probably intervene. But the idea was, if we're going to
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: do this alone condition instead of being alone will be
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: in there, we just won't interact with them, and so
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: they call it and ignore. Okay, just need to set
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: the context for.
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: That, sure, sure, yeah, I think it's super valuable.
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: Perfect all right, So in this new ignore condition and
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: you can ignore these ads, Okay. So I was just
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: describing the fact that there's this new development with respect
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: to the standard procedures for a functional analysis and FA
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: they had done this alone condition instead of change to
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: ignore condition. That's actually kind of tangential to the point
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: I'm trying to make here, which is that the modification
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: was with respect to that ignore condition. Well, there's this
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: twenty thirteen study published by Queerim and friends that proposed
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: that assessors could actually start the functional analysis process with
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: an extended alone slash ignore condition. Depending on whether you're
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: doing one or the other. Most of the time it's
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: ignored anymore. And again this was identified as an automatic
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: reinforcement screening condition. The hypothesis was that if low rates
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: of the target behavior, whatever they were there to be
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: assessed for, if there was not really occurring during the
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: extended ignore loan condition before they got into any of
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: the other conditions, then those behaviors were unlikely to occur
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: during those conditions during the FA, allowing the experimenter to
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: use then only the three other conditions attention, toy play
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: which is the control condition, and escape from demands. And
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: in addition, if they did start the entire FA process
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: by that extended ignore condition, and they did observe high
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: rates of that target behavior occurring, then there was like
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: a fairly good likelihood that that was already going to
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: be automatically reinforced behavior, which is to say, sensory stimulation
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: or something of the you know, some kind of sensory
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: input that they were getting from that experience or whatever
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: it was, right, that's the general hypothesis that was floated
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: out there. Anyway, So they're like, well, if that's what
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: we're trying to get at, we can just do that
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: whole all those conditions right up front, just do a
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: nice long process where they're give an ample opportunity to
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: if this is something they're getting out of this, we
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: can do it now, and if they if they do
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: observe it, then we can probably conclude without doing the
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: rest of the analysis that this is probably automatically reinforced behavior.
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: It's probably sensory, it's probably self stimulatory, and we don't
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: have to do the rest of the assessment now. For
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: the experiment they did, and they did the normal standard
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: functional analysis, so that what they could do is see,
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: if we observe it here, well, we also observe it here,
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: can we reliably determine that this probably is And they
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: had a very high correspondence. If they observed those target
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: behaviors during the extended ignore condition, then they also saw
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: them in the other conditions and definitely in the ignore
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: conditions during the rest of the FA and they could
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: reasonably use those to inform this was probably self stimulatory
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: and if they didn't observe it in those conditions at
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: the beginning of the process. They also didn't observe those
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: target behaviors during the alone or ignore conditions during the
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: regular FA, and they did see some other kind of
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: differentiated outcome in the other conditions. And so they reasonably said, like,
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: we propose that when you start your functional analysis procedure,
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: just do this nice elongated extended ignore condition. You don't
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: see any of those behaviors. Just don't do that condition anymore.
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: Just do the remaining three. Do that attention condition, the
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: toy play control condition, and escape from whatever the situation
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: is demands type of condition.
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think that makes sense. I mean, because
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: ultimately this is in service of like I mean, you're
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: trying to discover the features that reinforce or occasion behavior, right, Like,
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: that's ultimately what they're trying to do. But there is
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: something valuable because I think the implication here is not
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: necessarily that you don't need this extended alone condition. It
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: is another way to save you time, yes, to get
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: the results of your assessment more rapidly and not waste
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: time on conditions you don't need.
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: Exactly right, that was exactly right, perfect.
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: So, although the pre screening condition is not as broadly
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: incorporated as some other refinements. It is still a relatively
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: systematic change that is often used when conducting fas, and arguably,
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: I think anytime you are in a space where you
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: can save time to get to well enformed interventions, you're
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: better off. And so I think this is just one
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: of those things that like it makes sense to adopt
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: that as part of your FA standard exactly right.
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And you probably noticed a theme that a lot
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: of these refinements were toward efficiency. It was like, how
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: can we make this a quicker and more effective process
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: where we can get to intervention, treatment supports, what have
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: you more quickly so that we can we can reduce
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: the amount of time this individual is existing in conditions
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: where they're having to experience this challenging behavior. Is a
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: potentially a very high volume.
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean there's a conversation inside of this where
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: it's like you're balancing treatment utility versus practical utility, right,
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: Like what is ultimately going to serve the most effective
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: treatment versus what is going to be the most useful
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: in a treatment context in terms of like like practical use,
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: and like it does not benefit anybody to have extended
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: long assessment periods that delays access to treatment that's going
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: to be useful, right, but it also doesn't benefit anybody
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: where the treatment is not useful in itself. So we
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: have to strike a balance between those two things.
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: Exactly right. So people probably hear this and maybe the
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: whole entire time you've been asking or screaming, I don't
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: know that you've been experiencing and having the thought like yeah,
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: but at the end of the day, you're also providing
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: a lot of reinforcement to self harm behaviors. I hear you.
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: We will get to that in the discussion where we're
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: going to get more into things like some of the
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: ethical implications, some of the other considerations. Some of the
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: different approaches people have taken to this are hot takes,
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: Like we do have something to say about that piece, right,
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: because like this is not a new criticism people who
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: have been responding to this for a long time. We'll
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: get to what others have said about that piece of it.
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: But just just know that, like I hear you, it's
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: coming up.
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we're gonna get to it. Don't worry.
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: Yes, there's so much to say about so much of this.
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: So anyway, we're now at the point where we have
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: introduced a lot of refinements to try and streamline and
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: increase efficiency in this process so that we can have
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: as quick of an assessment as possible that guides to
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: as an effective a treatment or intervention as possible. That
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: what results as an outcome of this assessment is data
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: that tells us what supports are likely to be effective
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: for this individual. Okay, yes, there's that. There were other
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: innovations that occurred to also boost the utility and effectiveness
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: and robustness and what have you of these functional analyzes
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: in which researchers attempted to refine, revise, alter these functional
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: analysis protocols to work in other environments and situations. So
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: we're going to discuss three major ones here in sort
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: of the detail. Because these are like, the reason I
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: separated these from those other refinements are these are like,
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: these are totally different approaches all together, like how to
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: conduct a functional analysis. The refinements we discussed are like
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: how to make the existing process more efficient. These are
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: how to do a different process, if that makes sense.
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: So that's why, yeah, I separated these in their own thing.
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: The structure of these are very different. I would say
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: that the critical feature that you're going to find in
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: all the functional analysis variations that we're going to talk
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: about are that all of them include at least one
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: test and one control. Yeah, right, like that is a
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: core feature of functional analysis. I you've got a test,
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: you've got to control, and then everything else is a
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: variation from that theme, you know. But the standard DEFA
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: is kind of its own thing. And then the first
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: one we're going to talk about here is latency based defas,
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: which I love doing because you don't have to manage
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: behavior as long true, which is really nice, and you
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: don't have to worry about delivering as much reinforcement. So
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: as some people may have considered, as we've been talking
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: about this, some behaviors are too intense to allow them
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: to happen fully or even really at all. Nevertheless, it
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: has been generally considered the most ethical course of action.
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: And there's debate about this, and I think it's really important,
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: but generally speaking, it is the most ethical to attempt
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: to understand the function of behavior, what the individual gets
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: out of it, what they need, before trying to proceed
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: blindly to treatment, Because getting the wrong treatment delays effect
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: the treatment, and it also puts the person at risk
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: because they continue to engage in the behavior or the
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: behavior worsens as a result of not having a function correct, right,
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: So like you have the argument is there? Okay? Yeah,
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: So a modified version of FA was developed to attempt
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: to capture the behavior without really letting it occur.
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So that's kind of the thing is, like some
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: of these some of these behaviors are so intense that
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: they a single instance would be an intolerable amount of
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: that behavior occurring, Okay, And so they developed these latency
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: based fas so established in a twenty thirteen study by
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: Thomasin Sasse and friends. In this arrangement, the experimental presents
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: the provocative situation that again may escalate the behavior that
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: could be like seriously dangerous. And then they start a
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: timer and as soon as the onset of the behavior begins,
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: like as soon as it even starts, it hasn't like
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: fully even exploded yet. It's like on the verge of starting,
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: they provide whatever the putative outcome or reinforcement is for
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: that condition and terminate the rest of the session before
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: I can escalate anymore. The more quickly the behavior occurs,
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: the more likely that outcome is the effective thing that
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: the individual is seeking in those moments. I don't think
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: we really explain this super clearly in the original studies.
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: That essentially what happened is like, let's go back to
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: that social disapproval condition that is in the normal situation,
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: and let's go with the refinement of like a five
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: minute condition of that socialist approval. So they come into
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: the room and they're interacting briefly for a little bit,
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: and then the person, the experimenter or the therapist whatever,
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: the tech says I can't talk right now, I'm busy,
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: or I can't I can't hang out with you, I'm busy,
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: and then they withdraw their attention. If the individual in
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: this room then demonstrates the target behavior of concern, let's
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: say self harming again, then the tech will come over
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: and they'll provide attention, but they only do it for
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: like twenty or thirty seconds. They're just providing this, So
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: don't do that, please stop, You're gonna hurt yourself. It's
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: like usually, I mean, it depends on a wide variety
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: of factors, but how they respond is informed by an interview,
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: which we haven't talked about. We'll try I'll try to
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: remember to make sure we get to that in the future.
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: But essentially how they respond is informed by what was
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: normally or supposed to normally be. This how people would
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: respond when this individual would do this in their normal environment.
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: But anyway, they'll only do that for about twenty seconds.
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: Then they withdraw their attention again, and so then the
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: individual could again immediately do that self harm behavior. And
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: if they do, then the therapist immediately comes over and
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: addresses it again, and back and forth they go for
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: the entire five minute interval. So you could have like
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: a maximum instance in which they they will do self
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: harm and receive some outcome for it that could be reinforcing,
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: and then it's withdrawn and then they do it again
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: and they receive enforcement again, and they do it again
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: and they receive it again. Could do this up to
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: three times a minute. If they're really really efficient, it'd
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: be once every time, Like assuming it was a twenty
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: second interaction for the social disapproval, they could do that
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: up to three times a minute to really maximize how
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: much attention they could get to how much effort it
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: took for them to do the thing, the self harm behavior.
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: All that is to say that in these latency based ones,
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: there is no opportunity for repeated opportunities for that behavior
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: or escalation is like they start to get worked up
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: and you're like, boom, reinforcement, whatever the thing is, whatever
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: the outcome is, we deliver it right away before this
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: can escalate, and then we stop. We're not doing it again, right,
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: And it's how long did it take before I provoked
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: you to you starting to escalate? And that's the latency piece.
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: Right, So it'd be like, you know, we present an ad,
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: how long does it take for you to start skipping
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: through the ad? Okay, so we are back. We're talking
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: about latency based that phase. And really the feature is
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: that when we present the evocative or the provocative stimulus
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: to whatever's going to escalate the behavior, we start a timer.
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: We record when the onset of the behavior, we deliver
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: the reinforcer right away so that the behavior does not
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: continue to escalate, and that is the end of that session.
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: Like once the behavior starts, that is the end of
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: that session. Because it's supportant for everybody to know, latency
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: is for the time between the stimulus and a response, right,
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: So that's why it's called a latency based AFA. It's
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: the time between when we present that evocative stimulus to
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: the time the response starts. Now related to this, Najowski
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: at All in twenty thirteen identify that there are some smaller,
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: lower stakes behaviors that reliably precede escalation to higher magnitude behaviors.
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: They could reinforce those less intense behaviors as functional proxies
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: for the target behavior of interest and obtain clear, differentiated
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: results which could proceed to an effective intervention recommendation. So
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: I imagine what we're talking about here as a precursor.
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: FA right, Yep, that's exactly what that is.
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, precursor FFAs are really cool and coming from a
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: place where I work with folks that have that really
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: severe behavior, like these are life saving tools. Yeah, being
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: able to identify related precursors to a behavior can save
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: somebody's life. You know. I've done fas for like rectal
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: digging behaviors and eye gouging behaviors, and it was because
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: we had these tools that we were able to do
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: it and figure out the functions.
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I was actually going to share a story of
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: like someone that I did work with who they were
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: a very large person and they would often run to
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: places where there were hot water. Whether we were sharp objects,
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: they would try to run out the door. If they
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: got escalated, they would attack and they would like punch, hit, scratch, bite.
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: They got really intense and they would really really badly
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: into themselves. But before they did that, they would reliably
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: bite their thumb, and so it was like as soon
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: as they were getting agitated, they would bite their thumb,
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: and you knew, okay, we are now on the escalation trajectory.
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: So what you could do as part of a functional
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: analysis is reinforce the thumb biting and only that, and
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: we didn't let it get past that point because that
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: was functionally the same as the rest of the behavior.
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: The outcome for that was the same as the outcome
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: for the bigger, more escalated behavior. At least that's what
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: the research seems to have shown, is that like, we
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: can reinforce those precursors and then it doesn't have to
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: get to the point of severe danger because the lower
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: stakes want to bite your thumb, which is also like problematic.
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: Like this he would scar himself from some of the
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: biting he would do, but like that wasn't getting the
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: point where he was cutting himself or running into traffic.
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: So it was like, we can reinforce the lower magnitude
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: version of this before it escalates, and then provide an
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: intervention based on the fact that we can presume that
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: the outcomes of the same because they're part of the
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: same class of behaviors. It's just part of the escalation
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: ramping up.
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: And it's super important to understand when we talk about
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: synthesize that phase later.
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: True, that is so important to understand that precursor piece
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: because that is such a key element to It's not everything,
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: but it is a key element to the synthesize that
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: phase when we talk about that in the next episode.
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: Perfect, yes, thank you for teeing it up so beautifully.
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, of course.
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: Okay, So that's that's getting That's like the latency based
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: fays as well as those precursor fays, they were kind
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: of related in a lot of ways, so I wanted
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: to incorporate them there because with the with the latency base,
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: like you often want to stop it before, like you're
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: basically reinforcing the precursor in that as well. But at
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: that point you you terminate the assessment so that you
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: aren't necessarily getting out of hand, right, Like, how many
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: times are you willing to allow someone to stab someone
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: as part of an FA? Zero times zero is the
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: right number. No stapping.
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: It literally can't happen.
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: Yes, it can't happen. So it's like you you stop
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: it before it gets to that point. Okay. Another kind
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: of similar way that these are set up, but they're
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: technically their own class of things is called a trial
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: based functional analysis. Now, functional analyzes were and usually are
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: conducted in these as I mentioned, highly structured, tightly controlled
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: settings with many safety precautions in place, right, Like, like
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: I said, the padded rooms, they're like lots of staff
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: on hand, there's very little in the environments they could
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: possibly hurt themselves with or somebody else. But in reality,
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: that's not where or what the situation is like when
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: those type of behaviors tend to occur for that individual, right,
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: they're not usually like they did not start life or
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: let's spend most of their time in these patterned rooms.
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: Usually they're at home, they're in school, they're in a
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: grocery so, or they're in an actual place with a
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: lot of stuff around them and a lot of potentially
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: dangerous stuff, and so that's just not similar to the
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: situation in which that individual's challenge of behaviors tend to occur.
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: So there was this nineteen ninety five study by Sigafus
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: and Saggers and they pioneered a different presentation for their
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: functional analysis functional analysis assessment that they called a trial
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: based functional analysis.
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: Yes, so in this arrangement, the experimenter first presents a
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: calm setting event that is unlikely to evoke a problem behavior.
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: Then the experimenter presents the evocative situation, similar to a
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: latency based FA if it's our behavior occurs, the pre
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: selected outcome is delivered, and then the session is terminated.
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: These usually last only one to three minutes and have
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: the similar benefit of stopping the behavior before it escalates uncontrollably.
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: So it does allow us to kind of evaluate the
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: context in which the behavior is evoked without seeing the
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: follow up of the dangerous behavior that might continues to occur.
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: And again they can kind of do these now more
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: out in normal environments. So it's like, this is the
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: situation we're in, We're all prepared and ready to go.
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: We're going to just present the vokave situation. See if
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: it happens, and then if it does provide that that
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: potential reinforcer, and then we'll call it done for that trial. Yeah,
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: like it was just a one and done. Does this
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: reliably produce the behavior? Can we reliably provide something that
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: would reinforce that behavior? And then that trial can complete.
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: If it doesn't produce that behavior and there's no opportunity
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: for that putative consequence or the outcome, then we could
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: reliably say that probably is not the situation, That's not
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: what that individual is going for, right, Yeah, Yeah, but
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: they can do these in those more naturalistic environments. Grocery stores.
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: Schools is actually a very commonplace.
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: Schools. I was going to say, schools is probably the
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: most common you'll see that.
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that those most likely with this is
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: happening is in schools. And then they can get to
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: use that assessment data to suggest and inform a potential
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: intervention package that they might have then put together to
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: support this individual's communication or environmental arrangements that are less
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: likely to cause the kind of distress that results in
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: self harm or aggression toward others. Right, absolutely, all right,
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: the final sort of arrangement we're going to describe that
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: was kind of a different take on this is again
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: similar to this trial based FA. These are natural environment
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: would also called like pop up or FA burst contingency
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: functional analyzes, and as I said, these are are very
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: similar to this idea of the trial based functional analysis.
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: It's in a natural environment where this is likely to happen,
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: but these can be arranged for their much longer, so
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: it's sort of just given an opportunity, you are there
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: observing the whole time. They're not really planned, but given
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: the opportunity, you jump in when and if that target
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: behavior naturally occurs as part of the sort of regular
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: daily situation. So the experiment might observe for a long
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: time and again they're doing this same environment that's highly
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: likely to evoke that behavior of concern here, and then
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: when it does again, they provide the outcome they're attempting
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: to measure regarding whether or not that is the thing,
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: that is what the individual is attempting to obtain. What
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: are they seeking to get out of this? What do
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: they need? Can we identify that by providing it when
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: that target behavior occurs, systematically providing it.
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: And this requires some staff training as well, So like
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: if it's happening in natural environment, and there's like staff
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: or caregivers. Like what they are supposed to do is
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: when that behavior does occur under whatever conditions, they are
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: supposed to deliver whatever outcome, like immediately, they're supposed to
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: drop everything, and like basically their response is contingent on
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: the burst of behavior that occurs. And that's essentially what
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: happens is like the minute the behavior starts to occur
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: in whatever condition, because the conditions are longer, we are
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: prepared to do an attention condition at this time. So
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: we are going to when this behavior occurs, we deliver
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: attention and see what the rate of behavior is that
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: in that particular condition, so or if it persists. So
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: it's an interesting one. It's a fairly new one, but
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: it is one that does exist because it is occurring
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: in naturally natural environments, and it is something that is
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: pretty unique. And ideally this occurs when, if my understanding
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: is correct, it occurs when it's difficult to capture naturally
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: occurring mosh. So like this might be something where like
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: you know, you have a hard time kind of like
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: setting up that evocative situation, and you know there are
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: certain situations that are a little bit more difficult, like
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: you know, maybe going to a doctor's office or something
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: like that, So you might do something like that where
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: it's less it's it's similar to trial based, but it's
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: a little bit different because you are programming in a
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: different way. We kind of thought about this before the
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: show too, and like in the middle of the show,
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: there are studies on this, but it's kind of unique
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: and kind of like its own thing, and it is
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: I think currently being further evaluated.
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, just as you said, like, the conditions under which
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: this makes sense as an approach are just as you're saying, like,
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: if you try to manufacture the conditions, that might not
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: be enough to actually create the context of which that
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: behavior is likely to occur. So you can't do the
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: actual assessment because you never get to observe it. You
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: never get to attempt any kind of arrangement that would
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: allow you to get an assessment other ones in which
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: just might occur. Are like you don't have a space
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: to try and conduct that functional assessment, so the best
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: you can do is go into the space or it
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: currently exists. This might make a lot of sense if
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: you are in a situation where even if you had
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: a space, for whatever reason, you couldn't get the person
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: to that space, and so you just have to show
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: up where they are, Like if it's not safe to
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: drive them, for one, if they don't have transportation. There's
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: a lot of reasons that you couldn't necessarily get them there,
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: but you want to be able to assess this anyway.
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: So there are a variety circumstances under which this makes sense.
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: And you can also imagine like how much more valid
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: it is to be like, well, this is we didn't
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: manufacture anything. This just happens. Yeah, it happens, and like
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: we get to be there, so we can capture the
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: opportunity to see, can we do an actual assessment analysis
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: of this when it happens. That's got more validity to
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: an approximation of what kind of outcomes are most likely
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: the ones that are occurring here that would tell us
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: something about this this behavior right exactly. Okay, So those
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: are some of the major adjustments that have been attempted
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: to find ways to bring utility to functional analysis to
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: address some of the issues that came up with functional analyzes.
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: We have a lot more to say about this. We
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: haven't even gotten into the fact that, like, similar to
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: this idea of natural environment, what about just observing and
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: not manipulating anything. There's a name for that too. Then
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: we'll talk about that. And there are data that have
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: compared those observational assessments to experimental assessments to questionnaires. There's
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: actually a lot to impact inside of those spaces. Of course,
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: many of you, I'm hoping, if you are behavior analysts,
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: will also be wondering, well, why haven't you talked about
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: the synthesized FA yet or the ISCA or the PFA
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: different names for the same thing. We are going to
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: get into that next time. That'll be a part of it.
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: Like there's a lodge unpack with that, because that also
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: came with that was such a major shift and how
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: functional analyzes were conducted. It kind of created a schism,
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: like there is kind of a camp of people who
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: are like, we'll go this route with functional analyzies and
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: other people who are like, no, we're not going that
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: route with functional analysies. Yeah, So getting into the controversy, well,
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: I think will be its own huge discussion we need
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: to unpack because there's a lot of nuance there and
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: a lot of smart people making a lot of great
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: observations and smart points on both sides of that discussion,
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: And I think we just want to be as transparent
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: and objective as we can be about what's going on, right,
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: And I mean, I'm happy for us to kind of
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: weigh in on some of these aspects of things, but
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: I do think like let's just sort of unpack what's
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: happening as part of it, and that will require a
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: lengthy discuss that we want to save for its own thing.
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, most definitely.
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: There's also like some of the refinements that have come
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: from the interventions that have been developed out of these.
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: There's a wide array, but there's some that I think
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: that are particularly interesting that are worth spending a little
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: time discussing. And we've got our own opinions to share
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: on some of these. So there's plenty for a whole
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: nother discussion here that we're going to save for next time.
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: So never don't you fret if you're a worried we
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: hadn't gotten to your favorite stuff yet, We'll get there.
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: And if your favorite stuff is behind us, well, then
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: keep coming back because we've got fun things to say
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: as well.
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And if your favorite stuff is adds, that's weird.
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: All right, we're back. We're wrapping this up. We're wrapping
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: up this particular discussion for part two. We do have
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: a part three. Part three should finish it up. I
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: think we'll be able to fit everything we need to
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: in that part of the discussion. It's possible this will
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: go part four, but I really don't think there's enough
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: left for that to be the case. But I'll leave
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: the door open. If there's something we missed. If you
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: like to chime in and share some stories to give
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: us some context, to help us unpack something that maybe
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: we said incorrectly, or a citation that we got wrong
• 50:05
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• 50:07
  Speaker 1: us directly at info at wwdwwdpodcast dot com, or on
• 50:12
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• 50:16
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• 50:17
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• 50:19
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• 50:22
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• 50:35
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  Speaker 1: blowing minds, and you can do that by heading over
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: to Patreon. If you go there, you also get some
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: bonus content, add free episodes, early episodes, and I will
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: shout out your name. You can put whatever name you want.
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: If you don't want to know that it's you want
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: people to know that you support this podcast. You just
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: want to do and secret. You can put whatever name
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: you want, or you can put your name, and either
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: way I'm gonna read it. So a giant thank you
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: and shout out to the people who put their name
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: as Mike, m Megan, Mike T, Justin, Kim Brad, Stephanie, Brian, Ashley, Kiara,
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: and Charlie. Thank you all for your support, for your
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: continued support, for your loyalty, for your generosity, for being
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: just generally awesome humans. And we appreciate you.
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: You're perfect and we love you.
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: I did not say this before, but we were going
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: to recommend some things. We did this at the end
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: of every discussion. Hopefully you're a returning person and you
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: know that by now, but if you don't, then that
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: is a fun thing that we're about to do. After
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: the credits, I also would like to say thank you
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: to my team of people, without whom I could not
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: make this show. So writing in fact checking from Shane
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: and myself. Thank you for your help and for recording
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: with me today.
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: Shane, Hey, anytime, happy to do it.
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: Our social media coordinator is Emma Wilson. And the person
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: who is extraordinary, amazing, wonderful, awesome, perfect on, creable and
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: just the best overall audio engineer is Justin. Thank you,
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: Justin for making us podcasts sound like good podcasts do.
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, we only sound good because you do good.
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: Yes, despite my best efforts, it turns into a podcast,
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: and that's thanks to Justin's magic. All right, I think
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: I said the things. Is there anything that I missed
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: or you would like to add before we get to
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: our recommendations. No, let us recommend some things.
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: Oh, I'm so ready recommendations.
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: All right, I'm recommending a board game. I kind of
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: tried to strategically over the last few episodes, like I
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: recommended a show, a movie, a board game, an album.
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: I'm trying to spread out the love a little bit.
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: This is a board game. It's actually not a new
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: board game. This has been out for a little while.
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: It's not that old. It's maybe like, I don't know,
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: it's fifteen years old, thirteen years old, on ten years old,
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: something like that. It's it's oldish, but not that old.
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: It's called Zulkin. It's spelled tzl k apostrophe.
• 52:56
  Speaker 3: I n.
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: This is based on the mind calendar.
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: Mmm.
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: And it's this cool gimmick that I really like, which
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: is that on the board you have these plastic gears
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: that interlock and every time you take a turn. Once
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: everybody has taken a turn, they're putting out their pieces
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: on the gears. Then you move the gears one space
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: and then that changes what you could potentially gain from
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: having been on those gears. And then you take your turn,
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: and then you move the gears again and so and
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: you've only so many times that you can put your
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: pieces on gears or you're taking pieces back from gears,
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: and you're basically doing that for four rounds of the gears.
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: They have little stickers so you know how long it's
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: been per round. But you do that and then and
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: it's just a really cool idea. And basically you're doing
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: a thing where you're like collecting resources to do certain
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: things you want to collect other like build buildings or
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: you want to move up a temple, or you want
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: to build technologies, whatever, you can do whatever you want.
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: But the point is you sort of choose to collect
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: some resources and then you get to just move the
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: little gear around again, and that just moves your pieces
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: down different spaces that give you different abilities that you
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: can then take. So you kind of have to calculate out, well,
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: how long do I want to wait on this gear
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: before I get moved to the space I want or
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: I get moved past the space that I want, Yeah,
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: and then choose at that point to how you're going
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: to interact with your options. Just a really cool neat idea,
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: A really fun little system that's been developed and it
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: looks really cool and really fine and it's not particularly expensive.
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: This is the publisher is called check Games or CGE,
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: and so you can check out those. But that's Zulkan
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: zupboard game.
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: That sounds so fun. I love that.
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: So I'm going to recommend a series of four books
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: right now, currently eight, because I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed and
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: I am I can't help but be obsessed and so fair.
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: I'm going to continue to talk about Dungeon Crawler Carl
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: until I turn blue in the face because I am
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: having so much fun with this series. So by the
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: time you hear this, I'll have read the first four
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: books and they are called in order, Dungeon Crawler, Carl,
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: Carl's Doomsday Scenario, The Dungeon Anarchist Cookbook, and The Gate
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: of the Faral Gods.
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: Beautiful.
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: And this book series is one of the best world
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: building book series I've ever read in my life.
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: I mean it is truly like it talks about like
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: at some point in time they go on talk shows
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: because because remember the because I've talked about it before,
• 55:24
  Speaker 2: but I'll talk about it again. The whole premise is
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: that Earth has now been reclaimed by a private organization
• 55:31
  Speaker 2: to reclaim all of the resources. So like every Earthling
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: has now become enslaved by this alien organization and they
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: are forced to compete in a dungeon crawl similar to
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: dungeons and dragons, and there are eighteen floors. It's like
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: a game show. Like it's a game show. Yeah, it's
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: a reality game show. So it's broadcast across the entire universe.
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: And of course, because it's being broadcast as a reality show,
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: there are advertisers, and there are sponsors, and there are
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: all the things that go along with that, and so
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: it's just it just gets more absurd and more ridiculous
• 56:03
  Speaker 2: as it goes. And so I am about to finish
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: the Gate of the Parah Gods, which there's at some
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: point in time, there's a haunted sex doll. There's all
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: kinds of things that are happening in this book. It's
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: just it gets really really obnoxious and absurd, and I
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: love it. I love it. I am just like I can't.
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: I don't normally care about spoilers, but this is one
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: of those things where I'm like, I don't want to
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: read anything about this book until I finished the eight
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: books because I don't want any spoilers. So I'm like,
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: I want just to be surprised by everything that happens.
• 56:29
  Speaker 2: And it's like I get the same feeling that I
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: get when I read The Dark Tower the first time.
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: M that's awesome, which is just like, I'm so excited
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: to see what happens next and I don't want anybody
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: to spoil it for me. So anyway, it's a really
• 56:40
  Speaker 2: good time. It's a lot of fun, and I suggest
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: everybody start reading it. You're to hear me talk about
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: it a lot.
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's been so widely recommended to me by so
• 56:47
  Speaker 1: many people, so many times. It's definitely like very high
• 56:50
  Speaker 1: on the list of like next things to read. And
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: I'll probably burn through really quickly like you did. But
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: that's super fun, so great. I'm looking forward to it.
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: I recommended Zulkan, the Board, gamelk Apostrovia I n and
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: then you recommended Dungeon Crawler Carl. The are apparently eight books.
• 57:06
  Speaker 1: You're recommending one through four as an ongoing recommendation, so
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: it will come back again.
• 57:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's an ongoing recommendation. It will come back every
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: time I finished a book, it will be the recommendation.
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: Very good, very good. All right, Well that's awesome. As
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: I said, you can tell us your thoughts by emailing us.
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: Thank you all for listening. I think that's what we
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: have to say. Is there anything you liked out or
• 57:22
  Speaker 1: that I forgot before we wrap up?
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: Nope, that's it perfect.
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: This is Abraham and this is Shane. Come back for
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: part three next time we are out see yuh.
• 57:32
  Speaker 3: You've been listening to Why We Do What We Do.
• 57:34
  Speaker 3: You can learn more about this and other episodes by
• 57:37
  Speaker 3: going to WWD WWD podcast dot com. Thanks for listening,
• 57:42
  Speaker 3: and we hope you have an awesome day. B