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Leadership, Workplace Culture, and Humor with Michael Kerr · Authentic Living

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Welcome to Authentic Living with Roxanne, a place where we have conscious conversations
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about things that really matter in our lives.
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And now here's your host, Roxanne Durhaj.
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Hi, everyone.
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It's, Roxanne Durhoch.
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Thanks for tuning in again this week.
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Today, I have this is the second time, Michael Kerr.
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Yeah.
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Yes.
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Yes.
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This is the second time you're on the podcast.
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It's an honor, so I didn't mess up too much the
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He's doing gesticulation for anybody that can't see the video, and I'm like
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I'm interpreting.
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I'm yes.
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I'm interpreting.
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Sound.
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Is it Michael Kerr?
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It's Michael Kerr.
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He's trying to mess me up.
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Michael is a a dear, I would say, friend and colleague, and, we're both members of the,
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Canadian Association of Professional Speakers.
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Michael has been at at this bid a lot longer than me.
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We're saying 1998 was the first book, but membership probably longer than that, I would
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assume, Mike.
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And today, Mike's come on to talk a little bit more about he's written nine books and but he
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has a recent book, Small Moments, Big Outcomes about leadership that we wanna chat about.
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Beautiful cover.
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Anybody can see it.
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So we're gonna talk a lot about that today.
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So, Mike, tell me what what made you wanna write this book.
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You've written eight before.
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This is the ninth.
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What made you want to write this particular book?
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Yeah.
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It's a culmination really of years of work leading up to this book, of years of research
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going into companies, interviewing leaders, CEOs, presidents of companies all over the
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world.
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I've spoken for, well, twenty plus years as you say.
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Well, god, I guess, close to twenty six years.
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That's insane.
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Wow.
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I know.
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That's crazy.
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About humor in the workplace, I first was in that space and speaking about eventually
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workplace culture.
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And my previous book's kind of funneled up into this book.
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So this book is my culmination, I think, of a lot of research of a lot of thinking in this
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area.
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And so the book very much is geared to this idea that leaders need to think of themselves
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first and foremost as a leader and not just a manager, not just a boss, not just a
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supervisor, that there is a difference that goes beyond semantics between being a leader
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and being the manager, being a leader and being the boss.
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But more than that, Roxanne, being a culture leader and thinking of themselves in this day
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and age, first and foremost, as a culture leader.
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K.
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So define here obviously, I either think culture, and I'm gonna assume or leader.
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Right?
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So tell me what the definition how do you define a culture leader?
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I define a culture leader as somebody who obsessively thinks about culture first and
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foremost in everything they do.
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By culture, first of all, I just how I define culture is it's your workplace mojo.
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It's the feel of the place.
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It's the personality of the place.
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It's the unique set of rituals, traditions, values, behaviors that you and different than
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your nearest competitor.
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It's your number one competitive advantage, But here's why culture leadership matters.
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Great cultures don't just happen.
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You can't fake it.
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You can't go buy your culture at IKEA.
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Even if you did, you wouldn't understand the instructions.
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You'd have parts left over.
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So you need to because it is your number one competitive advantage, because it impacts every
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aspect of your organization, including employees' health and wellness and how well you
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communicate and work together and collaborate, how creative and innovative you are, how you
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provide customer service and outstanding customer experience, how happy employees are.
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Because it affects all of that, being a culture leader is simply about being intentional in
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everything you do as a leader in regards to your culture and recognizing that as a leader,
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you have a disproportionate impact on your culture, that everything you do and say either
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adds to your workplace culture in some way or detracts from your workplace culture.
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So being intentional about your culture means everything from hiring with your culture in
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mind so that you are hiring people who aren't just a match for your culture, but people who
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can grow your culture in the direction you want your culture to grow.
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It's about training with culture in mind.
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It's about communicating relentlessly what your cultural norms and values are.
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And as a culture leader, it's about getting into the habit of always thinking about when
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you make a decision as a leader, are you building the culture that you wanna build, and
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does this decision reflect the culture that you want?
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So always keeping your culture front and center in the back of your mind in everything you do
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say and in all of your decisions that guide your business.
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I'm gonna assume over your your tenure in doing this kind of work you've seen, I gotta say,
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iterations or metamorphosis around that whole concept.
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Right?
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So I'm thinking twenty, twenty five years, we've gone we've seen such shifts.
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And even as, you know, as soon as the pandemic, we've really seen that the companies that are
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excelling are the ones that really take this concept to fruition.
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The ones the leaders that made the phone calls or had the one to ones or did the Zooms or did
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the Facebook lives are the ones that really got it.
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And when you started way back when, I'm not calling you old, but way back when, how has
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that shifted, that whole concept of culture based on what you're talking about today, which
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makes it makes so much sense.
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Like, you'd think that everybody would get this, but not a lot of people still get it
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today.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Sadly, not a lot.
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Certainly, way more than when I started.
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When I started, I think yeah.
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People talk about culture, but it was it was very minimal.
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I think it was off the radar.
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It wasn't talked about or written about all that much.
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We talked about all sorts of other things, and I think often in a very hodgepodge kind of way.
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So we talked about all these these the separate topics.
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So culture kinda pulls everything together, right, too.
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And, really, it's just been, I would say, in the last, what are we, 2025 now in the last ten
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years
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Yes.
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Fifteen years that you've really seen a shift in a lot of organizations where they're
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recognizing and appreciating the importance of culture and putting a priority on that.
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And you can see that in terms of how they spend their money.
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You can see this in terms of even a lot of companies hiring chief culture officers.
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Mhmm.
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Often, they have different names, but a a position related to that, people to help
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champion the culture and to drive initiatives to help educate their employees about the
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culture and support their values and bring them to life.
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So there has been a huge shift, but I think there's still a long ways to go.
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Absolutely.
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I would think that companies are coming forward and they want this concept.
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They would have probably been companies that have been doing bits and bites of the the work
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along the way, or they maybe have gone through some kind of crisis in market share or there's
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something like that when they're thinking, wow.
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We seem to be generally kind of, you know, keeping the tempo with the competitors, but now
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we've kind of been left behind, and we're not sure why that's happening.
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So when you get called in, I I know a lot of it comes from keynoting, but are there other times
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where you get calling for consulting or just like we're trying to kind of figure out how to
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keep up with our competitors?
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How might people come to you to kind of delve into this whole concept of culture leadership?
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Yeah.
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Absolutely.
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And and you hit on a really good point.
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That is often when companies or leaders for the first time start to think about their culture
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when a crisis hits.
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Right?
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Mhmm.
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Or when they have a huge change in their organization, and they realize sometimes much
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to their chagrin that they don't really have the right culture in place to deal with change,
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to deal with innovation and creativity and uncertainty and all this the stuff that leaders
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today have to think about.
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I do get called in very often to do coaching or to to give advice and help.
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I do longer full day and multi day training workshops as well to help implement some of
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these ideas to really help them put things into practice, to help them shift their culture.
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And very often, companies will contact me when they've introduced some new values, and they
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want to make sure these values actually mean something and they actually stick and that
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people take them seriously.
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I wish sometimes they would call me before they came up with their values because sometimes I
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would I would have some advice on the values they came up with.
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Like, maybe 18 values is a little bit too much.
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So that is, though, why a lot of companies and leaders reach out to me.
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They've got a new strategic plan or they've got new values in place, and so we wanna get our
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employees excited about this.
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We want employees to embrace our values, and and we want you to help us trends.
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Excuse me, tran I got choked up talking about this because it's so exciting to translate
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those values into observable behaviors.
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And and that's what great culture leaders have to do.
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Right?
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We have to make sure we are translating what those suckers mean.
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Right?
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Because here's what I joke about all the time.
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Here's what I joke about in my talk.
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Culture is held together by the values.
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Right?
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But everybody talks about values like this.
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Right?
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Like, that these
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So I've tried for people that won't see the video, I'm looking at my what is that?
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It's a flower hat.
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He's got a pink flower hat.
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Everybody else are fixed.
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If you're not watching this video, I just kinda swing with him as he's got a flower hat on his
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head.
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Yes.
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Yes.
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You know, this this playfulness, Michael Yep.
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Which is what I love about what you since I've met Michael and the kind of work that he does.
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You bring such a playfulness to a culture
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Yes.
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As as you kind of come from the external kind of world.
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Do you find that sometimes you go in and some cultures are like the CEO is a little bit
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they're like, they're so serious.
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Right?
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And they want their values, and they they they want the tactical outcomes, and they want
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investor buy in, or they have those quarterly meetings with the ROIs and all that stuff that
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they don't get that sometimes they have to shift a bit?
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Oh, for sure.
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Absolutely.
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Yeah.
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And and you're right.
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Everything that I talk about and everything in this book, has humor throughout the book.
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I'm a huge proponent, and that is one of my main messages and themes I bring to audiences
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is the importance of humor, of having fun.
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That humor is both a driver of more collaborative, inspiring, productive, humane
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workplace cultures, but, also, humor is the end product of working in a positive, humane,
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collaborative culture where people feel good about themselves, where it's easy to bring in a
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good attitude to work and have a little bit of fun because you feel appreciated and valued and
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respected.
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And so it's easy to bring that sense of humor along.
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But for sure, I meet leaders like that, and here's one of my messages when it comes to
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humor.
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Humor is not about telling jokes.
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It's not about being It's not?
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Noun.
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Sometimes sometimes it can be, but it's not about being the stand up comedy of the other
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comedian of the office or being the office clown.
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And it's not always even about being funny.
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It's about being more human, more authentic, more real, being more balanced.
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It's about finding the funny in your work lives that's out there waiting to be found that
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especially the things that you can't control, right, which some days is probably a 47%.
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And it's especially, back to your point about the stern CEOs, it's about laughing at yourself
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more.
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Is it not a truism after all, Roxanne, that the more seriously a person takes themselves, the
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less seriously we tend to take that person, which is ironic because people take themselves
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so bloody seriously in the hopes that everyone will take me seriously.
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And the reality is, I'm sorry, no one takes you seriously because you are taking yourself so
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seriously.
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So it's about being able to show your human side to laugh at yourself, which as a leader
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makes you more approachable.
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It makes you connect with your employees better.
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It creates psychological safety in your environment so people do ask those challenging
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questions and suggest outrageous ideas and point out issues that need pointing out because
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they feel safe and comfortable to do so.
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We know from studies that leaders who embrace a positive sense of humor now that's important.
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Right?
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Not a sarcastic, cynical, biting, cutting sense of humor, but a positive sense of humor.
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Leaders who think about how their use of humor will make the people around them feel better,
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that we trust those leaders more because they seem more real, more genuine.
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We know it's one of the most powerful stress busters available to us.
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It creates more resilient teams.
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We know from studies that workplaces, that teams that embrace a lot of fun tend to have
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lower employee turnover rates, lower absenteeism rates.
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Everything moves in the right direction.
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So one of my messages too is even if adding more humor into your workplace culture or into
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your leadership style, even if it doesn't generate all these benefits that I suggest it
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will, what would you rather have?
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The same level of success at work in your business and less fun or at least the same
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level of success and at least enjoy the journey a little bit more.
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Right?
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It's it's Right.
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Because you have to spend so much time there.
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Right?
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So you might as well you might as well have fun.
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And I like, I ran clinics, addictions clinics, and stuff like that.
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And at the end of the day, you're dealing with people's lives, for instance, right, over the
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years.
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And then you realize, like, at the end of the day, we would we'd have these little jokes, and
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then you'd realize you're not making fun of people.
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You're just trying to alleviate the stress that you'd be dealing with when, say, somebody has
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kind of dealt with a bad situation with a family member or the public or the media or
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something like that.
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And then we would talk about it and somebody would bring something up.
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We'd have a good little chuckle and then the stress level to your point goes down, and then
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people can kinda go off and go, I can do this again.
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And that's so important.
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And you make such a good point, Roxanne.
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It's not about taking your clients, your patients, your customers less seriously or
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lightly.
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It's about taking yourself lightly in order to be more professional in your job.
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I've spoken a lot to funeral homes, to funeral people, to ER doctors and nurses and people in
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these high stress jobs, and they tell me time and time again about how they need to have a
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healthy sense of humor in order to maintain their professionalism, in order to cope with
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the job, with the demands of the job.
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So as long as you're doing it in a safe way, respectfully behind the scenes, and sometimes
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it is very black humor.
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It can be gallant humor.
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Yes.
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Yes.
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Yes.
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That'll say
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if it helps you distance yourself from that stress and it helps you maintain your sanity
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and your resilience so you can be professional, then, of course, it's something we need to
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learn to embrace.
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Now, Mike, I'm curious.
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Right?
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Like, when have you come across companies that they think they're ready?
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They're like, Mike Kerr, we heard you speak, and we wanna embrace this whole concept in a
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workplace.
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And you have the consultation, and you go, I don't know if we can kinda work with you.
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Have you come across scenarios like that over kind of your time working with companies where
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you give them some homework and tell them, let's talk again at a later point?
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I I'm trying to think of ones where I've actually said, no.
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I don't think this is a fit.
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I I know there are some examples where I thought, okay.
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This is not a long term relationship I wanna pursue Right.
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Right.
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Because they're not serious about it.
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They're not gonna take it seriously.
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They're not ready to shift their culture in this way.
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There's just too much resistance still, too much Yeah.
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Skepticism, I think.
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Yeah.
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So there there certainly are those examples.
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I think most, though, I would say the majority are open to shifting the way they do things.
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And and the number one way I find that they get excited, that they get inspired to shift things
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is through the examples that I share.
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So I hear this time and time again, especially from senior leaders where because I share so
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much research and I share examples from businesses all over to show that this stuff
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works.
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So even when you do some of these these silly crazy things, here's the end result of this
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silly craziness, though.
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Mhmm.
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So this works.
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And that kinda sets off a lot of light bulbs, I think.
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When they see it in action, they get the idea that it's relevant, that this this is something
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that they maybe need to pay more attention to.
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Absolutely.
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I think it's a congruence between all the levels of the organization as well.
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Yeah.
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Right?
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And I'm gonna assume, like, most times, like, with myself, you're probably maybe at upper
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leadership, but then looking at how from your senior leadership goes down to middle
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management, to your leaders or managers, to the public.
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Right?
17:08
So it's we have to have that cascading elements.
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And I've worked with some companies, and the senior leadership team has a concept that they
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wanna deliver, but they're not acting in congruence with what they want the culture to
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be like.
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And then they're wanting the the frontline, say, employees to act a certain way, but
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there's that disconnect.
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And working with them to say, if you're not mentally resilient and you're reactive, but
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you're saying to employees that are dealing with customers that you can't kind of lose your
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cool, they need to see it demonstrated.
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So that whole kind of thread through becomes really important.
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I'm gonna assume that when you're doing work around your cultural leadership, that's what
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you're looking for as well.
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Absolutely.
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Yeah.
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When I was I'm putting on my flower hat again when when I was talking about the
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because he's got a pink little
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Pink flower hat on.
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Yes.
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Pink flower hat.
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Yeah.
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My point in this was that too many companies just treat their values like window dressing.
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Right?
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Like this superficial they put up their values on a nice poster with the puppies and rainbows,
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and they sing we are the world once a year with their team.
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And then there's our values.
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What great culture leaders do very intentionally is they translate what those
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suckers actually mean in terms of specific behaviors, attitudes.
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They turn it into fun top 10 list videos starring their own employees, example after
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example, stories.
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They do a values blitz.
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They use all these creative ways to make sure people understand what their values are.
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But then and you were just talking about this.
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The second thing that's absolutely critical is, of course, modeling our values out loud, making
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sure you're seen to be living your values out loud.
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And I've talked to a lot of very inspiring leaders where I've gone in for interviews, and
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very often, the CEO of a company will be out in the parking lot picking up garbage or helping a
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customer carry bags out to their car or whatever it may be.
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And they're doing that purposefully to be shown to be seen, sorry, living their values out loud
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and to be sending the message no job is beneath anyone here, and this is what I expect of all
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of our employees.
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Now the other thing I do see, Roxanne, is to that point of it cascading down throughout the
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organization.
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And this I find fascinating too is I've gone into big companies very often and worked with
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one department where the department is obviously miles ahead with their culture.
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They've got a fun, humor filled culture.
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They're collaborative.
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They're open minded, curious, creative, all the things you want in a great culture.
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And then I speak to another department, same company, but a little different.
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A little soul sucking, fun sucking culture in this department over here.
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And I'm sitting there thinking, holy smokes.
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You work for the same company?
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And it's like night and day.
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And so I think that speaks volumes to the importance of the senior leader in those
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departments because it it probably, in those cases, is cascading down from those different
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leaders.
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And one has done an exceptional job at building a great positive culture and the other one, not
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so much.
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Yeah.
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And and what you can learn that cross pollination, right, potentially without calling
20:17
out someone to say, somebody could be transporting this over.
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Maybe the leader shifts things a bit differently, or maybe they communicate
20:25
differently.
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Or maybe they just go do little get togethers in a different way where they structure their
20:30
their meetings differently, where they check-in or they maybe have a funny story or they talk
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about a success.
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There's so many like, to your point, you can have two entities within the same culture, one
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getting a positive and one getting a negative.
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But with even within the culture, I'm sure there's pockets that they can learn from each
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other and have I don't know what cross I was gonna say cross contaminators.
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That's the wrong word.
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Pollinators.
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Cross fertilization
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is is a negative term.
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So that they could kind of learn from each other and not take it personally.
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I'm not leading well.
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But in fact that, oh, this actually works better or maybe we can use this or, like, the
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case study kind of sharing that I'm sure that you do with a lot of your trainings.
21:08
Yeah.
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Well, benchmarking within your own organization, right, and learning from your
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stars, whether it's employees or teams or entire departments, looking at at the different
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cultures, looking at the different numbers even and going, hey.
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How come this department has such a low employer turnover rate?
21:25
Mhmm.
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And over here, not so much.
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What's going on over here that we could maybe learn from and apply?
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You're right on.
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I mean, making sure that people aren't working in silos where they aren't sharing information
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and hogging resources and hogging ideas, making sure you have have those open forums from
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different departments where people connect.
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I love this idea actually, Roxanne, that some of my clients do where they do now this is at
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an individual level, but they rave about the impact.
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They do random coffee dates where everybody's name goes into a random name generator
21:54
throughout the entire company, and then they meet for a coffee.
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So you meet with people, and some of them do it in groups of four.
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So you go and you have coffee with people that sometimes you've never met even if it's a big
22:04
company, or at the very least people that you don't see on a regular basis or work with on a
22:09
regular basis.
22:10
And it just helps build this greater sense of community and the cross fertilization that
22:16
happens with ideas when people get talking about their challenges and work, and then
22:20
people, oh, you guys are doing that.
22:21
That's so cool.
22:22
I'm gonna I'm gonna tell my boss about that.
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Right.
22:24
Or you could put in marketing with accounting or something together.
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Right?
22:28
For sure.
22:29
Like, for us with familiarity.
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We're gonna go for an accounting, we're gonna go sit with the person that's generally dealing
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with finance.
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Or if we're in marketing, we're gonna go and talk with maybe marketing and r and d.
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But to put four random people together, what what I would say a gift.
22:45
Right?
22:45
Because then you're gonna be able to say, wow.
22:46
I hadn't thought about that, like, from that perspective and just to grow an appreciation
22:52
for what everybody's responsibilities are at the end of the day to the business unit or just
22:57
the overall culture.
22:58
Yeah.
22:58
And and that's how we know creativity and innovation thrives, right, from getting
23:03
different perspectives.
23:04
I love the old saying that if you have two executives or two employees that think alike,
23:09
one of them is redundant.
23:11
So if we can get more different perspectives around the table, that's how you get new ideas.
23:17
Everybody sees different things from their vantage point depending on what their role is
23:21
in the company.
23:21
But, also, everybody has different backgrounds, different educational backgrounds, different
23:25
totally different backgrounds.
23:26
So they we all see things in a different way.
23:29
So tapping into those different perspectives and ideas.
23:32
In fact, Steve Jobs, when he redesigned Pixar Studios when he took over Pixar, that was one
23:38
of his major goals was in redesigning the office space, the the building, was to make
23:44
sure there was more synchronicity in how no.
23:47
Not that's not the word.
23:48
It's not synchronicity.
23:50
That's the word.
23:51
I knew it started with this.
23:53
There was more serendipity in terms of people just running into each other randomly so that
23:59
this cross fertilization of ideas would happen.
24:03
Well, this is amazing.
24:05
Now in reference to the book, if you're what should people expect?
24:10
Where can they go to pick up a copy?
24:13
And do you have any last words for any leaders out there or people just they've been on their
24:18
frontline and they want they're liking the concepts that we've you've introduced in the
24:21
book that you might want to have them some thought or something to ponder about the con
24:27
the content we talked about today.
24:29
Yeah.
24:29
For sure.
24:30
Here's the last thing I would just remind people of, and and you mentioned it early on,
24:33
Roxanne, that work consumes a big chunk of our time.
24:37
It's the single biggest use of your energy, your talents during the short thing called
24:42
life.
24:43
And we have and I talk about this in the book.
24:45
The re one of the reasons I call it small moments, big outcomes is because life is made
24:50
up of small moments.
24:50
That's all we've got.
24:51
In fact, on average in Canada, we are given about four thousand weeks in this thing called
24:57
life, which doesn't sound a lot when you put it into weeks.
25:00
Right?
25:00
Because weeks go by really fast, and most of us listening or watching this have probably used
25:06
up more than half of those weeks.
25:08
Right?
25:09
So work has this enormous impact in this short journey called life.
25:13
It affects our mental and physical health, our happiness, our personal lives, our
25:18
socialization, where we live very often.
25:20
It has huge impacts on our lives, and you as a leader have a disproportionate impact on all of
25:27
those things in terms of your employees.
25:29
You impact your employees' families' lives.
25:33
You impact your employees in substantial ways that perhaps you're not even aware of.
25:38
So I challenge you to think about what do you want your legacy to be as a leader?
25:43
What do you wanna build day in and day out?
25:47
And it is through the small moments.
25:49
That's the second reason I call it small moments.
25:51
It is through those small moments that make or break your leadership.
25:55
It is the small simple things that you do that your employees notice, and it is the small
26:01
things, I guarantee you, that will irritate the heck out of them and annoy them.
26:05
I challenge you to think about your legacy.
26:07
The book is available on Amazon.
26:10
You can get a Kindle version, the e version, or the hard copy version through Amazon.
26:15
It is packed with relevant ideas.
26:17
It goes into different traits of leadership.
26:20
It talks about the importance of communication in the workplace, how to run your meetings, the
26:23
importance of employee recognition and appreciation, the importance, of course, of
26:27
having fun at work, how to build a service first culture, how to build a more resilient
26:32
culture.
26:33
It is packed with ideas, packed with a load of fun.
26:36
So I I hope that if you pick up a copy of the book, it will help you on your leadership
26:42
journey and help you leave behind a more positive, substantial, lasting legacy.
26:49
Awesome.
26:50
Mike, it's always a pleasure.
26:51
Mike always makes me evil every time I see him.
26:54
And again, I love the hat.
26:56
For those that aren't seeing the hat, it was very pretty in pink.
27:00
And and I'm trying to take him seriously yet again.
27:04
For me, what am I taking away?
27:06
I talk a lot of leaders knowing their mental resilience, and Mike talks about that much
27:11
more.
27:12
Leader knowing thyself.
27:14
Who are you?
27:15
What is that what is that imprint?
27:16
When you're no longer in that space, what is the legacy?
27:20
What will they say about the Michael Kurs of the world when he is no longer there?
27:24
For you as a leader, think, what is it that you want people to embody or remember with your
27:30
leadership?
27:31
And I often see as leaders, making the place a better before you leave the environment, making
27:35
that environment that much better so people remember something special about you.
27:40
So for everyone, thanks again for tuning in.
27:42
If you wanted to know how you're connected in relationships, just go to roxie and
27:45
doravodge.com, plarge /quiz.
27:48
You'll do a really quick quiz, and we'll tell you kind of either at home or at work where you
27:53
are in reference to relationships and some next steps of how to make things better.
27:57
So, again, Michael, thanks so much for everybody with everybody hanging out with us.
28:01
Thanks so much for hanging out with us, and we'll chat with you again next week.
28:04
Okay, Mike.
28:04
Thank you, Roxanne.
28:05
Thank
28:06
you.
28:06
Take care.
28:07
Bye bye.
28:08
Bye.
28:09
Thanks for tuning in to Authentic Living with Roxanne, creating the space for positive
28:14
healthy change.
28:16
Roxanne is a keynote speaker, psychotherapist, and coach.
28:20
To work with Roxanne, visit roxannederhage.com/blueprint.
28:26
We'll see you next time on Authentic Living with Roxanne.