Latest / Upcoming Trial of Nathan Chasing Horse April 14, 2025 / Debriefing after March 11, 2026 Delayed Sentencing of Nathan Chasing Horse
Transcript
- Marina Crane: round two. Okay. Yeah, no, but it's just like, like I said, when I, when, when I went to Las Vegas, again, again, I keep on saying I when I didn't tell anybody. Because like, it's like going into the unknown, I didn't know how the women were going to respond to me. I didn't know how I was going to respond when I saw Nathan chasing horse. working with non-Indigenous people is a little more complicated than I initially thought. Good morning. It's Sunday, April the 5th. So as one of my LinkedIn friends said, about his pet dog wishing all you crazy bastards a happy Easter. Yeah, some of my ⁓ social media people are hilarious. And at the same time too, it's amazing. That phone is my text. ⁓ I do believe like ⁓ when it comes to ⁓ racism. Again, ⁓ I don't know ⁓ what was going to, you know, the expectations of everything. I knew, like I knew I was going to do some sort of podcast, but yet even when I went there, ⁓ I didn't sit down and say to them, can I record you? I didn't say that. I was just casual and having conversation. You cannot help it. Like, The struggles and the implications of how people choose not to deal with their own childhood trauma or how they perceive themselves as being like the white savior and even being confronted by other minorities, especially when you're non-Indigenous or you're from ⁓ a group of people that don't wear their skin. ⁓ So yeah, it's interesting how we get ourselves into trouble. I'm not talking about like, like criminal trouble. I'm talking about life. Throughout my life, I never really gambled until, oh, maybe, jeez, maybe 20 years ago, 25 years. But yet ⁓ I know ⁓ I was recorded and pictures were taken. But ⁓ personally, like myself, didn't do any recording, except I think once, but that was in the motel room. I guess what I'm saying is like I didn't, I was more ⁓ concerned about the story or. I understand this. I know some people have gambled their entire life, but this whole ⁓ addiction and anxiety and you name that layer of onion skin all trapped around our brains and why we're obsessive and compulsive or whatever label we put it on. Hey, get off the cross. It's Easter Sunday. We need the wood. Years ago I worked on the movie set Buried My Heart, It Wounded Me and one of the ladies, ⁓ she says my brother wears his skin all the time and she says you know even if you're a millionaire the color of your skin does not matter to people of privilege. There is just some unconscious thing and I want to use the metaphor of unconscious. what I was listening to, like who was doing what. Because like I'd never met these women before either and I only had met them through text. Hadn't really talked to anybody on the phone as well. So I mean, ⁓ the only person I was traveling with that I spoke to, like even that was like, I hadn't really, you know, knew anything about him either. So. No, I just thought I'd post a podcast because, you know, life is really interesting. It really is. ⁓ I think sometimes ⁓ we get, for me, I get caught up too much in the dogma or the paradoxes of life, especially being an Indigenous elder. ⁓ Like, again, ⁓ for all you women out there, even if you're non-Indigenous, Because when you're dealing with parallels, and in working with Indigenous youth, there's always parallels. And working with Indigenous elders and non-Indigenous people, there's the whole concept of parallels. And rightfully so, but it goes deeper than just ⁓ being culturally different. Just meeting people for the first time and talking that was ⁓ Like even talking about my own ⁓ like how I encountered Nathan chasing horse that was ⁓ Like even with my blog I would say well, I only knew him like this amount of time Whereas these women they knew knew knew him for decades like I said one or having different foods or different ways of praying or even ⁓ interacting with other people from other cultures. The parallels, ⁓ for example, with Indigenous women, and again, I could be wrong, I'm just talking from my own personal experience, is the realities of dealing with things that happened to me as a child, ⁓ as a... You know, it's pretty tough to be ⁓ living by yourself, ⁓ keeping yourself happy and healthy and balanced and having to constantly keep on top of how you think and how you feel. I just had an interesting discussion with one of my social media friends. We've done a couple of podcasts together and ⁓ was for 24 years, the other one since she was 14. And the other, other other news since she was a child, like she was, you know, sexually assaulted by him. Like it was just the grief of it. The whole thing was grieving. I think that's the best way I could put it. And I'm still, I'm still still sort of debriefing over it because teenager as a young woman, as a middle-aged woman, and now as an elder are important because it has a circular or reciprocal effect. It's not linear. And I think because ⁓ people of privilege live in a linear construct, like the matrix, we'll say for example, a lot of times ⁓ trauma It's I mean, it's interesting the people we meet online mind you ⁓ Initially we did go online and eventually we we'd go and have lunch and so we've become quite each other's ⁓ Talking buddies, especially for me like when I go out and I I have asthma and When I go out to gamble I suffer from You know, like I can look back and I can say, no, I think going down to witness him on April 27th, I'm seeing it as a celebration because going down on March 11th was more of like grieving, like a funeral. Does that make sense? Like I just, I don't think, I think maybe it's a bit overwhelming that I didn't, that I wasn't. when triggered at a deep psychological level, will say that you're in quicksand and you have to dig into the quicksand to pull out this object and that quicksand doesn't want to let go of it. So you know you're struggling in this matrix and you're wondering how am going to break free from this? Well the reality of the indigenous part of it that I'm trying to share with you is that the smoke in the area and I wake up just really anxious and I basically have to ⁓ find somebody to talk to so I can hack up all this stuff that I've been breathing in. And I do that, I do that. I do think I'm just using that as a metaphor. aware of the grieving part of it. But these young women, they don't deserve to be grieving every time they go to that damn courthouse. Yeah. You know, and all those people that have been constantly going to bear witness, that's a lot of money. That's a lot of time. That's a lot of dedication for them to be there. for the context of this podcast because a lot of times I think women, ⁓ know, when you're either in your late 50s, early 50s, maybe 40, as you get older and you've been in relationships and you've had partners and either they've died or you're divorced or ⁓ you've never married, the reality of being a woman in a dominated male environment Yes, it takes a lot of energy to have a narrative. Because that quicksand is ⁓ what you call combat fatigue. You get tired of trying to pull out that trauma. ⁓ But then when you do pull it out and you do have a narrative and you're talking about it and it's exposed, what do do with it? How do you nurture it? How do you embrace it? And then how do you release it? to let him know like, you know, what he did to people hurt people. Just that drive to be there. Because, you know, it's one thing that I wrote my blog about Roberta. You know, it's another thing, you know, to explain to them how my family was involved with Nathan chasing horse. Like it's it's the dynamics of exposure, you know, like exposing. And again, too, I'm not blaming men. I do think as women we have a responsibility. But but I don't think a lot of men get it. Like as a woman, I'm doing this podcast because there's some clarity here. ⁓ If you don't deal with your shit and as you get older and you go through living alone, ⁓ how do you process? This whole concept of embracing and releasing, I think is a foreign concept in the sense that some people that do not live in a collective, who do not understand holistic healing, tend to not want to get into the quicksand, not want to pull out that object that's stuck in that quicksand. That object could be an orb. Because it is exposing, know, talking about family members, exposing them to what my family did. Even to this day, like my older niece, she doesn't understand the total impact of her participation with Nathan Chasing Horse. She doesn't understand the impact she had on Roberta's life. I think that's it, Kate. You know, I think I'm just like really upset. Yeah. things that you've buried so deep in your childhood. You've buried so deep as a teenager. You've buried so deep as a young adult, then an adult, like a senior. dealing with stuff that you don't want to deal with has its consequences as a woman. I know as a man too, but I want... I'm just talking in generalities here because it affects men. an orb of energy, of memory. Let's say you have so many orbs in that quicksand because you had so many traumas as a child, as a teenager, as a young adult. By the time you get to be an elder, how many times have you dug into that quicksand and pulled it out, embraced it and released it? Much of the time when we're talking about superficial realities of You know, because look at what her daughter did. You know, what her daughter did ⁓ in that post on Facebook supporting this woman who was demeaning my character out of totally something totally different that had nothing to do with Nathan Chasing Horse. It had everything to do with my brother. more than I think men realize. And maybe that's why, like when we talk about men, it's like, well, they don't care. Okay, we're just saying that. I'm not saying all men don't care. But again, I could say that about all women too. The reality of it though is, what it is to be an Indigenous woman or just what it is to try and hold space or challenge other Indigenous women, especially when we're suppressed and our narrative is limited in a closed community. If we do not understand how to process these orbs that come to the surface, we ourselves can become part of the problem. and my brother's connection with Nathan's horse, even though she doesn't understand, all she knows is my brother was sentenced and served time and that I am supporting him and that I'm a pedophile. That support's coming from my niece's daughter. She's like my granddaughter. The impact that this young woman doesn't understand what her mother and what she did to enable You know, should have, would have, could have. I'd like to try and network with lot of academics. If you're an Indigenous academic and you're out there in cyberspace and you're someplace in North America, drop me a line because I have some connections with the University of Calgary and some youth workers that work with a coalition of workers that work with Indigenous youth. That's not just Indigenous women. I think it has to do too with the voyeur, the non-Indigenous person, the person of white privilege who has white fragility. Those people, and I say those people, it's an unconscious thing. And I'm not saying all non-Indigenous people have this. I do think as women, Nathan Chasing Horse to keep on playing a narrative that Roberta was going to be his wife. At what point did these women not talk to each other? See, that's the thing is like at what point I'm struggling talking to these women in Las Vegas and saying she was a danger to herself and others. A lot of things that I've come to this revelation in order to provide safety, and I've talked about safety, but I didn't understand the sophistication of it, especially if you're working with youth, especially if you're a social worker or a psychologist, psychiatrist, and you're working around Indigenous youth. There is a problem. It's problematic. The majority of times when I've talked with, say, my own mother about her childhood trauma, she didn't want to deal with it. The majority of non-Indigenous women who remember things from ⁓ stuff that they chose to do as children involving a memory that they do not want to pull out of that quicksand. They only have vague memories of like, okay, I was there, then all of a sudden I'm not in that situation. My niece was a danger to herself and others because of what Nathan and my brother did to her. And then the fact that my niece enabled her thinking that, you know, like whatever the hell she was thinking, she has to have some sort of self-reflection of her participation after Nathan got arrested. I don't know. If I'm having a difficult time processing this, does my niece even comprehend it? when you have non-Indigenous people befriending you. Now, I don't want to go off on a tangent about that. No, my whole purpose is to say to you, if you have some insight or you have curriculum development around Indigenous girls' gender psychology, drop me a line. I do believe that we need to have some curriculum development, maybe a four-month course. I don't want to dig into that, they'll say. Yet at the same time, because I've seen and heard that from my own mother, it was very difficult for her to process, especially as an elder. The only reason I'm saying this is because a lot of times most non-Indigenous women usually get to this point after maybe a spouse has died. Do you're processing? No, that what she did to Roberta. No, I doubt it. I mean, I, you know, I shouldn't assume, but. But see, if she's not even assuming, if she's not even participating, if she's not even reflecting, if she hasn't got the capability of understanding her involvement with with all the victims of Nathan chasing horse for the past 20 years. maybe developing it in junior high, high school, and maybe college. I truly believe Indigenous girls and women need to have some discussion on the choices we make as females. I think sometimes ⁓ the narratives we have because of systemic racism ⁓ is that we tend to ⁓ go outside of our communities. or there's been divorce or something has happened and ⁓ they're coming to some conclusion or resolution of something is the matter, I have to deal with this or I choose not to deal with it because I'm okay. But yet at an unconscious level, because that orb is in the unconscious state, we don't really take a good look at our true self because Wouldn't she stand back and think how Roberta was involved in all of this? because for some strange reason we think we have to. Yet at the same time too, I think a lot of ⁓ elder women who've gone through so much in their lives have a lot of knowledge and a lot of respect for me. Those things need to be documented. like in terms of how the choices they made in their lives, Do you think she's thinking about it? Well, that's that that obviously something is happening because her own daughter is still, you know, railing me over the coals about supporting my brother. As if I as if I had sexually assaulted my own niece. You know, for for decades, you know, when she'd come over as a child or we'd have ⁓ birthday parties or some gatherings. we suppress it. Now I'm not saying in terms of holistic healing that we as Indigenous people have an awareness. I'm not saying that at all. I'm just saying that... ⁓ and how that affected them, their partner, their children, their grandchildren, so that young people can decide and make choices for themselves. When I attended a gender psychology course, most of the women, young women there were interested in getting married and the instructor had her PhD, had never been single. I mean, had never been married, had been always single and ⁓ had no children. You know, I'd sit and I'd say to this young woman exactly what I was doing with my blog, giving her the updates of what Nathan Chasing Horse is doing. And she'd just sit there like a bump on the log. Whether or not people want to acknowledge the deep repercussions has a direct effect on how we allow people to treat us. That's my niece's daughter. I hear so many ⁓ TikTok stuff about relationships and all this whole desire to ⁓ find a partner or what is true love or soulmates. You know, that's like that's a abracadabra like magic show. You know, I mean, we all tend to want to believe in the we all want to believe in some, you know, what love is. I don't know, I don't know ⁓ at what point, at what point ⁓ do they stop? Like I said, going down to Las Vegas and ⁓ like the grieving process of it, I think this is the whole point is that, the importance of getting an education, some of these young women just thought, okay, their degree was like nothing major like engineering or physics or philosophy or something like it. It was quite evident that they were more concerned about beauty products and makeup and the latest trends. What they did with that post on Facebook, it's just opening up that wound again without them just projecting all that hate towards me when they don't know the whole picture. And that was one of the reasons I thought, like going down to Las Vegas and talking to his victims so they'd understand what was happening with Roberta. But again, too, I tend to think that unless we actually feel like every stage of our life, because I do think ⁓ part of my understanding of spirituality, part of being holy is to actually, you know, like you're dealing with that orb in that quicksand, you pulled it out. And that, I mean, like, that's part of the reality of what our young people ⁓ are doing in terms of social media as well. I just find that from my own experience working with non-Indigenous people Because all they know is like, she passed away. She's dead. And whatever story they thought about my brother. You're looking at it, seeing yourself in that crystal ball and going, happened to me. What did I do? What did I feel? How did I recover from that? Have I recovered? How did it hurt me? the incident that's happening in this orb that I'm witnessing, do the people involved know that they hurt me? Like I had to tell them this, I had to tell them what happened. Because for the same amount of time that they were there supporting Nathan Chasinghorse, they were right there listening to my niece. They're right there listening to my niece. She, just the relationship she had with those women. Or do they have any ⁓ comprehension of how their actions hurt me? Am I addicted to how people interact with me? Do I need to embrace that and do I need to let it go? Those things that we think that are unobtainable because it has no substance does affect us. But that's the thing that I think broke the camel's back. You know, like I, you know, I know there's family violence, but, you know, and I was wondering what it is happens to children who witness and see family violence. How do they process all this stuff? Most of the time, you know, women, they become teenagers, get married and they themselves also get brutalized. They themselves become victims of family violence by being with men who beat them up. whether or not we want to acknowledge it. The narrative in how we interpret our identity, our sexuality, our creative forces in how we interact with people is ⁓ what Shakespeare calls a tragedy, or what scholars and philosophers talk about the id. So, you know, I just never, I had no participation in that with my niece, none. Her behavior and how she behaved around Nathan chasing horse, like the way that women described her. Yes, there is a relationship that we have to have with ourselves. ⁓ Sometimes it's too painful for people and they think too, well I'm too old to deal with this. I think it's never too late. It's never too late. I just, ⁓ and then, and then the fact that her daughter and her, my niece's daughter and son had to have witnessed all this, all this abuse. Like it was like, it was like Nathan physically beating her up. Physically. I said, I'm not saying like I'm using a metaphor. He never, I don't think he physically ever beat up my, my older niece, like Vanessa. don't think she, I don't want to say I said her name, but as long as. When I talk to young people and I talk about my own personal experience in day school, ⁓ being around ⁓ white kids, having to stand my ground so that they would shut up with their racist remarks, and having them punch me, beat me up so that I could defend myself and deck them and tell them, leave me alone. You know, like I'm saying, Roberta and my, her, like Roberta and just the relationship, she tried to get in with Nathan. It was quite obvious when, like when being around her, you knew she was in love with Nathan. I just can't understand why my older niece just couldn't see it. Or unless she thought it was some sort of infatuation. Do not ever call me a wagon burner. Don't ever hurt me like this again. And then they back off. A lot of times I find I didn't realize that those children were probably coming from unsafe homes with unsafe parents. And they were just acting out their own trauma. But for her never to question Roberta on the relationship, because she had to have known, she had to have known ⁓ why I stopped, like why I wasn't facilitating Nathan Chasinghorse anymore. Much of the time when we look at our childhoods and we look at the friends that we've met and we think and we tend to not think. But the fact that whatever manipulation Nathan did to impose on her that I was chasing him and that any story about Roberta ⁓ being infatuated or him being sexually involved with her, how could she quest? Did you know what I'm getting? It frustrates me that she still is making me look as the protagonist. I know I can't get involved with some of the personal lives of my closest friends. I'm helpless to guide them through life because, you know, we're all adults. However we find love or however we presume what love is, is the consequence of our inaction from each of these stages of our human development. My whole purpose to go was part of the purpose. I didn't know, like right now celebrating is one thing, okay? It's important to celebrate. But the reality too is like there were a lot of people, like all those women who supported Nathan Chasing Horse, they knew my niece. My ⁓ media companion that I spoke to with this morning was helping me with an anxiety. ⁓ get, especially being asthmatic and when I wake up and I have a difficult time, I try to not be overreactive because I had gone through an overreactive session in the evening because I was gambling. I was overreactive. You know, way he treated her. You know, they said she came in. When she'd come in, she'd order them around. She said, even to cook things, she'd cook food for him. I said, well, he wants it this way. He wants it that way. And these are women who knew him a hell of a lot longer than my niece did. A hell of a lot longer. And they said, Marina, he treated her horrible. He treated her horrible. I have to decompress and deal with the aftermath of that experience. I think it's probably like the same as like going out and getting drunk or going out and being promiscuous or whatever the behavior is that we're involved in. There's a reactive part of it that we have to deal with and we have to somehow manage to step back and go, okay, I can embrace it and I can release it and I'm fine. as long as my body and my mind is processing what's happened to me in this scenario. I'm saying this as an example because that's the key to it. As much as we think our unconscious self does not have a say in our daily eating, breathing, sexuality, it does. It truly does. And yet there she was, just like, keep on going back for more emotional punishment, over and over and over. How could she participate? Well, that's, I don't know, it's learned behavior of some kind. Well, it's not from me. No. Well, why she, why all these decades are her and her children still doing this to me? As an elder, I talk with other women like in their 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s. Like it's just the reality of like... ⁓ And my family like to say, Marina, don't let it get to you. This is our relative doing this to me. And even though her daughter might not realize that I've read this piece of work on Facebook, fact that this kind of ⁓ dialogue is happening, this kind of negative talk about me, Like, what do we do? Why did we get to this point in our lives? That we become mean and nasty and like, okay, it's like I'm a narcissistic, Machiavellian human being. How did I get to this place? How do I eliminate this self-defeating behavior that I've invested in the majority of my life? What is it that drives me to go insane? Yeah. That's the reason I wanted to talk to the women who supported Nathan Chasing Horse. Like, what did they think about me? I've never, they never wrote to me. The only one who would text me, there were some who phoned me, some I'd never ever meet, the one in Oregon who was supposed to hack my computer. But you my own niece hired a lawyer to sue me. with this reactive addiction. See, even though it might seem presumptuous that I'm talking about something that's incapacitating and debilitating, it really isn't. However, it can be if you have suppressed an emotion. If you refuse to even acknowledge a hidden memory, See, I'm not dwelling on it and dragging it out. The reality of it is what is she capable of? That's why when I spoke to the tribal police, I said, documented. I don't know what she's capable of. This is my news, who's capable of hiring a lawyer to sue me for defamation of character and slander of Nathan Chasinghorse on my blog. of some horrific thing that happened to you as a child. Most times when we're dealing with ⁓ just our human sexuality, how do we deal with transgender, with ⁓ bisexuals, by homosexuality, by our own sexual heterosexuality, whatever our pronouns and nouns are, how do we maneuver this and how do we create safe space for our children? A woman who he would emotionally abuse to the point where she would take part in ritual and ceremony almost dying, almost dying. The lady said, you know, she'd come into camp. She said she went and fasted. Everything, she'd come in there just like a really aggressive woman and just like she was like ⁓ Nathan's best buddy. I can only comprehend what I know in my culture as a Sioux woman and that we had different gender types. Well, that's the reality of what's happening today. And yet, when the first settlers came in 500 years ago, they thought of us as being savages. And much of today, a lot of our rights as individuals, especially women, are being taken away. you know, that she's serving him and she's showing them what a loyal follower she is and she's gonna, you know, like just dedicated her life to him. And in one occasion, she almost died fasting at Bear Butte. She had to be hospitalized in, I think, Sturges, which is outside of the, out of that. Yeah. know where it is. Yeah. You know, she says Nathan didn't even go and visit her. and especially the rights of young, like of our children, to advocate and to be active, be an activist in promoting healthy human sexuality and to explain to men and women who have had children and who are grandparents and who raised their children about what young people ⁓ are doing and dealing with. The term ⁓ He did not even go and visit my niece. Like, I know this. You know, I know this. I'd sit with her and I'd talk to her. Not, you know, I'd text her, what are you doing? You know, I wouldn't say what you're doing. I'd say, if you're going into the States, look after yourself. That one time she almost died twice in one year. That's how sick she was with her diabetes. And she still went down. For three months I kept texting her, hoping she'd look after herself. what do they call it, ⁓ situational relationship? Or is it, I'm in a situational ship. It's a whole new concept with young people. And yet it's evolving because it is evolving. The whole concept of ⁓ interacting with. Because twice that year I went to the hospital. Twice I went to the hospital to check up on her. And yet that Nathan Chasinghors couldn't even go and see her in Sturgis when she almost died. And she still went back to him. He's not even a relative. He doesn't even give a shit about her and she still crawled back to him. Like I said, it's just like a battered woman. with the opposite sex or just interacting with someone that you're attracted to has a whole complication of ⁓ innuendos or just a whole process of having a discussion. As much as you try to have a discussion, a lot of times, ⁓ unless you're actually ⁓ able to communicate in a very appropriate way, get beaten up and go crawling back to your husband over and over again for more abuse. This abuse was so physical, so spiritual to my niece, and she's still suffering. You know, if she wasn't suffering, would her daughter be supporting the notion that I'm a pedophile? Do you get what I'm saying? Do you get what I'm grieving about? I totally understand you. Yeah, because... Hopefully the individual doesn't take it the wrong way. And usually I try to create narratives where I'm trying not to be obtrusive. Most of the times though, ⁓ when I talk about the things I've discussed about my sexuality throughout my life, ⁓ I've had people say, well, Marina, you've said too much about your personal life. And I'm going, no. You know, I wanted those ladies in Las Vegas to understand I've been going through this with my family because of this man, and I'm still going through it. I'm creating a narrative so the person knows, ⁓ like this is my sexuality, this is who I am. ⁓ My late parents used to say, ain't over till you're six feet underground. And even during the pandemic when we were talking about a lot of people who put their parents into nursing homes, that doesn't shut the sexual part of an elder. He may be in jail and incarcerated, but I have family members like my niece and her children who for the rest of their lives are going to be supporting this man. How else? The general public and how they see things, even when he was arrested. The backstories, the backstories my niece keeps on persisting and putting me down. Like I put, like when he got, when he was arrested, I wanted to celebrate. So I got a hold of Michelle and we did a podcast. My niece heard about it. Even before it was published, she warned Michelle, you know, not to trust me. Michelle just trusted her gut, published the podcast. Of course it's going to upset my niece. ⁓ down. There were cases ⁓ where during the pandemic there was a high rate of sexually transmitted diseases in nursing homes. Again, there was also during the pandemic a lot of elderly people dying because of that isolation and COVID killing them. At the same time, two ⁓ cases where ⁓ Children put their elderly parents in nursing homes and they find out that the mum has become promiscuous in a nursing home and is caught of sexually transmitted disease and she's not having sex with her husband who's also in the same nursing home. ⁓ Profound experience by adult children. As well as, say, sons putting their elderly father in the nursing home. But see, in the meantime, she's telling the authorities here that she's no longer supporting Nathan. She's telling the supporters here, the authorities, that his father sexually assaulted her. And I'm going to those authorities. said, she's still supporting him. I said, she's still supporting him because she doesn't want me to be interviewed. And for some moment in the dining room, he gets up and he yells, I need sex. And for the reality of like, okay, we have to deal with these outbursts. We have to deal with dementia and Alzheimer's and we have to deal with the aging brain. So what do we do and how do we help this elderly man who wants to have sex? Well, the solution was to get an iPad and You know, like, when a lot of these people who, like, when, when, this is what they told me, ⁓ when he was first arrested, the FBI and the state of Nevada were going to work together in the courts. And the FBI had given immunity to, to some of his supporters ⁓ so that they could, ⁓ what do call it, become witnesses against Nathan Chasinghors and testify against him. have him subscribe to pornography. And he was content and was able to function. Certain things about human sexuality as we get older, we need to be open-minded about. And it's the same thing, I think, for young ⁓ people is as we try to support them in safe places, that we don't make our homes ⁓ You know, the federal government, the FBI didn't. They didn't participate. It's only the state of Nevada. So all those people who are wondering what's going to happen to those supporters like my niece, who were right there enabling all that abuse with those children. See, this is what's so horrific, Kate. The amount of child pornography this man produced and distributed to the black web. hostile or violent, but at the same time too, we need to be a little bit more aware of the things we, you know, our boundaries. What can we talk about? And at the same time too, ⁓ especially the history of Indigenous women, like a lot of times when I was growing up, I didn't understand things because my ⁓ late mother just wouldn't talk about it. All that the state could do is identify the rooms that were in Las Vegas hotels, where he taped him sexually assaulting these children. There are so many other videos that the FBI has of him assaulting children. They can't identify where these films were taken. know, so all that... She just found it really uncomfortable and refused to ⁓ deal with things. It was no fault of her own. She was raised in an Indian residential school where there was no love shown. No sexual education on human sexuality. You know, it was just horrific. The neglect, the abuse of child on child, on staff, sexual assault on children. I can't even comprehend. I get a gist of it. People see on TV as, he's, know, he's the two, ⁓ Ren and Sierra are the only two women who charged him. And that the state of Nevada threw those out, threw those two complaints out from these two young women. Yeah. And then, and then all of a sudden the state of Nevada says, no, but we got, we got charges on child, child, ⁓ sexual assault because of the videotapes. They identified the hotel rooms in Las Vegas. but the reality of what those generations of our people went through as children. Now, when I would talk to my mother so she could comprehend the expanse of it, being Indigenous, I would say to her, I've had a tough life. My mom, I'd tell her the things that I've had to deal with. Day home. mean, ⁓ day school, day homes, Indian residential school. ⁓ They brought that 13 year old into the courthouse to testify in court that that 10 minute video that was so horrific about him sexually assaulting her unconscious. She had to get up and testify that that was her and that she was 13. Despite all this shit, his lawyer tried to pin on her that it wasn't her. And now that she's an adult. being sexually assaulted, being an indigenous woman in a patriarchy where gender apartheid and genocide is prevalent, that a female is only seen as property and can be sold as goods. Those historical things... all the horrific things these victims had to do. You know, like they're reliving things that happened to them when they were children. Yes. You know, and here I am, like, how can my niece and her own children not understand this? Like, Kate, it's one thing that I went down there wanting them to understand the sexual behavior of Nathan Chasing Horse when it came to my niece Roberta, when it came to my niece, my older niece and my own brother. Most of the times when it's so triggering, was easy for that generation to just not deal with it. But it caused a huge problem when the children are looking for love, when you're not talking about healthy human sexuality and what it means to ⁓ find intimacy. And what is intimacy? You know, then when I talk to people about healthy human sexuality and I talk about the charisma he had and then how it's involved in the Wawipi ceremony, you know, all this we'll call the phenomena. But that shitty phenomena has been hurting a lot of children and adults participating. See, ⁓ when I spoke to my mother, and I'd say even your grandmother, your mother had it rough, harder than you, And then I'd say even my great grandmother, her grandmother, even had it worse. Like my niece still participates in some weird, dynamic way. ⁓ When I witnessed a ritual abuse conference in Utah when I was studying psychology, gender psychology, ⁓ there was a woman, she had gone through ritual abuse as a child. It was so horrific as a child. Her father and We can go back generations of Indigenous women and even there was a town in South Dakota that was created just by settlers to hunt Indigenous Sioux women who were pregnant, gut them, take their baby's scalp and their scalp. They take it to the town and the ⁓ white settler would pay out money per scalp for how many and the small community. And when we talk about small communities, we talk about like Indigenous, like reserves or Indigenous communities or even isolated, you know, ⁓ small towns anywhere in North America, whatever they could be, settler towns, that all these horrific things happen to children. And this, you know, young, this young Mormon child had been a child and she'd be hung up in a meat locker in a white gown. Indigenous people he could kill. This has been going on 500 years ago. the first 100 years. They estimated that five generations of children were murdered. ⁓ That means 100 million Indigenous people were killed. And these men would come in playing Jesus Christ and the 12 disciples and they would sexually assault her hanging in a meat locker. And they did this to all these girls and they'd get pregnant and they'd kill the babies and the little... It's horrific! Yes, ⁓ slaughtered. Those children, those girls who'd been ritualistically assaulted, controlled, manipulated, had the fear of them scared out of them, developed multiple personalities. And when this young woman's talking in a conference of ritual abuse, and there's police, psychiatrists, psychologists, social workers, nurses. even the whole concept of how people perceive Indigenous women today. And she says, ⁓ they've uncovered so many personalities. And she talks, she starts doing her narrative of how she was triggered when she lost her own baby and how all that triggering brought up all that deep, buried, suppressed emotion of terror. And how she explained, like her father is serving life in prison. And this is the whole thing about Nathan Chasinghorse. Like he's going to be in, you know, what they call it, a very ⁓ maximum security prison. Because they, like this lady's talking about her dad. She says, she says ⁓ her own brother. Again, this is family. So that's why when I'm talking about my niece and my brother, I'm talking about family. You know, they don't teach this shit in psychology. Here's this lady in Salt Lake City, it's, you in Utah. who says, brother ⁓ saw all this as a child. He saw everything he participated. He says, to this day, he's still in denial about, this woman is talking about her brother, saying that her brother is still in denial of what his dad did to his own sisters, what he witnessed. He's in denial. And she's telling everybody in the conference, you know, he's actively out there. She says he might have multiple personalities and he himself might be perpetrating and doesn't know it. See that's why when I talk about childhood trauma and childhood abuse, even though it might seem poo poo and nothing like, ⁓ I don't want to deal with it, the very fact that people like that, like my niece. whatever trauma she's had or whatever trauma anybody out in cyberspace has, it's important to discuss it. Because in some psychological twisted way, the way my niece and her children are still participating, and the way this woman's brother is still participating. But that was her narrative in the telltale, like Edgar Allan Poe. You know, like, be careful. the bell still tolls for people. That's why I say don't trust anybody with your children. A person might be a doctor, lawyer, Indian chief. If they have suppressed memory and they're still supporting pedophiles, that's what's so horrific about this post on Facebook is that they're painting me like that victim. They're painting me as if I enabled everything with my brother because of some deep psychological trauma that I experienced when I was sexually violated at 19. Like that's, like how, how, do you understand? I do understand. Yeah. But see what the hell? Why, why are people like, you know, I wish I could go up to my niece and just, you know, say to her, but yet, you know, even when her brother comes and says to me, talk to her, I said, I've tried 20 years. I've tried. She'll sit there listening as if like everything's okay. Meantime she stops talking to me. She gets so triggered. She stops talking to me Nothing I can do or say even with her daughter supporting that post on Facebook Nothing I can say or do is going to stop them from their narrative. Just just as like for me Nothing anybody could say or do could stop my narrative about Nathan chasing horse But but it's coming to a close It's coming to a close. And the very fact that when I went down there, I was going down to explain my participation, what I was dealing with. I had to protect Roberta's brother and sister against her. I had to protect myself against her. You know, to tell them that she was such a danger to herself and others, she tried to kill my brother. She tried, you know, she tried so hard to just really, you know, hurt her own mother. Like her own mother, skin and bones, dying of cancer. You know, all the rage that my niece had towards just people who were supposed to protect and love her. Yeah, I'm tired. I'm tired. Yeah, you're absorbing too much. Well, it's not fucking absorbing. I'm just the reality that I have to live in my community. But even like when I go down there and I'm having pictures taken and being recorded, and yet it's not my recording, it's not my narrative, and yet here I am explaining myself to the survivors. You know, trying to explain to them, is what my niece who was a victim, how her life was, how damaged she was, how high risk behavior she was. Even though we have socialized medicine, we have therapists and social workers. Like this own psychologist saying my niece was delusional. Like, like really, how damaging! All because she had white privilege? She was a white therapist? Yeah, she's taken it out of the textbook. Well, was living it for 20 years, living in the community. And what, my niece is dead now? And here she is, wandering around, being a therapist out in the real world, connecting with Indigenous youth, nobody's stopping her? You know, I don't know, I don't know this whole, you know, we talk about God men and ⁓ God women. You know, therapists are like that. You know, like what the hell? Deal with your shit before you go off and be either spiritual or some sort of God person or God men because what the hell? Look at the damage that you're doing to people like my niece. You know, years ago, ⁓ our former chief, the one who's being charged with historical sexual assault on men, had this therapist come, paid her, had groups of people, including his family, go to her. I went to one of their sessions, something's not right here. Investigated, contacted the Psychology Association of Alberta. Took three years for the city police to raid her office. took three years for her to run back into the United States with all of her files. Like talk about people wanting to heal indigenous children. You know, I'm sick of it. I'm sick of it just the same way I'm sick of people assuming that I'm participating in ritual abuse. Because that's what this young woman, this hateful woman who has hate in her heart, like the one supporter, he says to me, Marina, just be grateful you don't have hate in your heart like this woman. But see the reality of it is like I'm related to people who have hate in their heart. There's not a damn thing I can do. There's not a damn thing I can do. That is their choice. When they made a pledge to Nathan Chasing Horse, they're still following him. They're still supporting him. You know, people can say, ⁓ Marina, you know, don't let it get to you. It's not, it's the reality. When I say to people, trust nobody with your children. Until people can stand back and say, this is how I participated with Nathan Chasing Horse. Until then, I don't trust them. When I met those victims of Nathan Chasing Horse, the ones who knew him for decades, those women I trust. Like how long did it take? It's like my late mother or even women who have been abused, physically abused. I can talk about emotional abuse too. The whole package, either you're physically or emotionally abused. I have that in my family. There are relationships in my family where they've been emotionally abused. Not physically, but they still stay with the perpetrators. You know, and the fact that you can confront your perpetrator and have the courage to heal takes a hell of a lot of courage and I trust them. You know, it says more about their actions than their inactions. I guess the reality of it is every time I go to casino, there are people there who are just like my niece and like Nathan chasing horse in those places. Do you know, like even when we talk about trafficking, ⁓ one of the resource people, I think she's 24, she was trafficked out of our hotel here since she was 14. And yet people actively participate in like selling rooms, know, ⁓ even like everything that happens in human trafficking, the prostitution, like how they go from hotel, from casino to casino. even in Nevada, prostitution is legal. But at some point there's that hidden agenda of children and ⁓ that underground, deep dark web we'll call it, and how there are adults participating. I don't know that it's so underground. I feel like it's above ground and nobody's doing anything. Well, let me put it this way. my niece and nephew, everything my niece and her children are doing is underground. That's what I'm talking about. There's underground behavior of people who support and who are in denial of what's happening. know, I know as a therapist, people have to, you when you have a client and they say they're participating, you're obligated to report them. But look at that lady who, you know, said that my niece was delusional. Look at this godman who practices yoga out here. You know, they're working with youth. And they've got to be hearing stories. And yet they don't actively say, here, I'm going to report this to the police. They don't, because that's their bread and butter. They're making money out of being a counselor. You know, in these youth groups, these facilitators, these cohorts that come together and talk about safety of youth. Safety of youth because the youth are in homes where they don't feel safe. And how do they as youth workers, you know, working out there, how do they create safety for these youth who are participating in sports or some sort of social activity outside of school, outside of family? Like how do, how did, the whole question is like, it's happening, they can see something's happening at home with these children. know, when the parents or the therapists are the instigators. You know, again, like I said, when I say underground or like deep rooted, there are a lot of women out there. Like I might be projecting on therapists and other people, and God men and God women, but there are parents, narcissistic Machiavellian parents who are doing more damage to their children. I mean, You know, like I'm pretty sure therapists and God men and God women, you know, understand the psychological terms of, you know, they understand narcissistic and Machiavellian characters. You know, and again, they do the song and dance to pass those written tests and critiques and everything to get licensed. But parents don't have that. And children don't have the... ⁓ know, the know-how or like the how do I put it, all that child knows is that they don't feel comfortable at home. Yeah, so I don't know. think I'm just like up to my neck in seeing people every day doing things and participating, thinking it's not happening to me. But it is. Because when all of a sudden, if somebody's grandchild or somebody's child starts talking about suicide, starts dying from cirrhosis or drug overdose. Those are the iceberg in the ocean. Those are like signs of something deeper. Like when I say the deep web, I'm talking about that in the self of society. Like it's pretty difficult to, think, for people who are ⁓ talking about their narratives of decades of supporting a cult leader or say women who have decades being in an abusive marriage. And a lot of times women ⁓ who've been in abusive relationships and their husband die, all of a sudden they're at this turning point where like there's an epiphany. What am I going to do? How am I going to function? Because they were functioning with men who were abusing them. Now all of a sudden, they've got their own choices. They can do whatever they want to do. In some ways, I think this whole closure with Nathan Chasinghors is me in a sense because, you know, like, I don't have to be warning people about him anymore. You know, I could stay in my little home and my little cluster and not even participate, not even do podcasts, don't do nothing, and just live the rest of my life in silence. See, having gone down to Las Vegas and meeting those women, and like I said, it was about a seven hour meeting total. Like what we're talking about, this is, know, what I'm saying to you is nothing in comparison to what we talked about. And yet these women, like every day they've got a function. Like the one lady, like combat fatigue. You know, I mean, I didn't even know over 20 years ago, I was still dealing with combat fatigue. You know, and then I get a non-Indigenous companion, you know, just, I don't know if he was more like the whole purpose, but the reality of it like ⁓ I'm in combat fatigue. I've been running on this systemic, because of systemic racism. for decades and I still see myself doing this constant. In some ways, are women a lot better off or are children a lot better off by not saying anything? Some believe that, yes. Well, a hell of a lot of society does. Yeah. And every time I say something and it triggers them, they want me to be quiet. or they take offense to it. That's why I'm saying as an Indigenous elder and from childhood to now, every time I've had to confront or deal with systemic racism, every time I've had to tell a non-Indigenous person to leave me alone, don't be pushing your racism in my face. It's the same dogma of victims who actively participated, like in a family. Siblings actively participating. I know people say, happens. It's everyday. It's everyday thing. This isn't specific to Indigenous people. If it wasn't specific to Indigenous people, then why do we have so many murdered and missing Indigenous children, like boys and girls? Why is it so hard for white men to even treat Indigenous women as if we're equal to our white counterparts? That's the whole mystery of it. Is that, you know, they can look at their white partner who has suppressed all their childhood trauma, never triggering their white partner, and their white partner thinks like this is normal. Only until something triggers them that a crisis happens and they end up getting divorced. or somebody dies in the relationship. We see about, you know, I jokingly laugh with my indigenous sisters and we say, as the bannock burns, as the fry bread burns, because it's like a soap opera. You know, as Indigenous women, like when I talk to other Indigenous women and we're talking about exactly what I'm talking to you about, for us it's just like a soap opera. We've dealt with our shit. Like my friend says to me, Marina, she says, you know, all this stuff, this is just reserved small-time politics. When you're working at a national level, International politics. All this shit is just poo poo. Do non-Indigenous women realize the struggle Indigenous women have to do at the international level? At the United Nations level? At the federal level? Like we have to have our shit together because we're combating all this misogyny even in our homes, in our backyards. My friend said to me, Marina, she says, you know, this is just the way of it. Not one time will we have our Indigenous brothers. Stand up for us Indigenous women. Not once. That's combat fatigue, Kate. That's combat fatigue. You know, it's one thing for a non-Indigenous man, you know, to come in and say, I'm going to be here. I'm going to, you know, it's your voice. I want you to express your narrative. Well, that, like really. Non-Indigenous women haven't even gotten to that point. You get leaders, non-Indigenous women leaders who are so horrible. They're so dangerous. They're playing the song and dance that their non-Indigenous men are following. And those men are just like a dog in heat smelling her butt. And that bitch that's in heat wants to have the entire province of Alberta separate. ⁓ Am I vulgar now? Am I vulgar? No. You keep going. I'm on a roll. I'll just say good morning Vietnam! This is Combat Fatigue 101. But I have to, you know, like, it's like art, it's like drama, it's like, you have to do the, you have to have the performative. There has to be a performative because that shit is so fucking real. Nobody would like, like, how do you, how do you deliver the message when everybody wants to kill the messenger? I know. I got out of it, so... Like, what do mean you got out of it? No, I got out of the performative arts. ⁓ well, I'm using it figuratively in life. I understand. Yeah, yeah. But it's just the reality that that's how life is. You can't get out of it. You can't. Well, for me, that's what I'm saying as Indigenous women. We can't get out of it. There's no, the only escape is when we're six feet underground. you know, like, again, we just go right back to the earth. So no biggie kind of thing, but it's all like, it's like Shakespeare said, ⁓ it's a stage. Yes, Mr. Shakespeare. It's a fucking stage and whatever shit you saw as a young man. Hey, it hasn't changed in how many hundreds of years. It's just a little bit more, ⁓ clear. the roles of women and just how the lack of, like how barbaric we are. Because we are, there's nothing, no science fiction, no fantasy world on Star Trek. ⁓ As much as people want to talk about AI and artificial intelligence, like until... ⁓ excuse me. ⁓ Some of that phlegm still comes out when I'm talking. So it's good I'm having this conversation. But yeah, I think sometimes it's just... I don't know if it's an addiction that I have to the narrative about just doing a podcast or ⁓ if I'm actually getting the point out there to the audience. Because the reality of it is it's not easy. I'm pretty sure a lot of women ⁓ listening to any kind of narrative other women are doing on podcasts can relate, ⁓ yeah, I've lived through that or I've done that. But, you know, I... ⁓ I don't know what to say when especially it comes to trust. I'm just grateful that the women that I met in Las Vegas ⁓ Like, you know, when I hear that they're tired and, you know, they're talking, like even, like I'm using battle fatigue. I can hear, you know, when they're posting on their social media. They just want this to end or some healing to begin. ⁓ about eight years ago, like even I think April is, ⁓ what do you call it? Violence Against Women Month? is, April's got some, there's some significant. Is it against violence? it against family violence? Is that the month? I don't know because I don't think those mean anything. think it's every day is violence against women. Well they do marches and stuff like that and there's one video that's really powerful because it's this young woman who was a victim of Nathan chasing horse. Like to get the awareness out. ⁓ Like it's one thing for me when I was a child and the moms and the grandmoms would talk about things and there was no action. Like Indigenous women couldn't vote. They couldn't marry anybody except Indigenous men. You know, like I can't even comprehend even how Black women are. You know, I can't because This whole gender psychology is so, you know, encrusted in patriarchy. And then, you know, it's a struggle to even... It's like a whole... Even though we're speaking English, we're speaking... It's really difficult to talk to men about this. Of any, you know... Because it's a gender thing. I don't expect men to understand what it's like to have their period or... Like come on, there's both physical and mental differences and yet just because of all this psychology and how our bodies react does not give them permission to rule us, to control us. And when a woman chooses to have children and how vulnerable she is for five years from the time she delivers her baby about her identity, come on. show some respect. I know some men, ⁓ well I give my life to her because she gave birth to our child. going, it's more than that. It's far more than that psychologically. And then for women to honor other women, even that in itself is difficult. That's why I think having classes in gender psychology and healthy human sexuality is important. There's not enough of that happening. I think more so just to educate people. I didn't know how frustrated I was until I started talking about, you know, white men to a white man. Okay, that makes sense. Like I said, last time I traveled with a white man was when he was so disgusted in driving me, 16 hours, no talking, like hitting a deer and didn't even check in to stop his car to see what damage it was. He just wanted to get the hell home and get me out of his vehicle. Sometimes when I'm traveling too, and it's quite obvious these white men don't want to be around an indigenous woman, like, excuse me. What does that say about your sexuality when it comes to women? You know, as men in terms of their biology, like how homophobic are they? That they have to project their protective instincts on their women to hide their own inabilities to interact with another, we'll say species, because that's how they treat me. Sometimes some alien. You know, no wonder why people are saying, ⁓ there's aliens and UFOs and ⁓ everybody's hiding this. Hello. Just look at men. Just look at the women. Yes, that's how you treat us. Don't need to project it into science fiction novels or stuff like that. The whole psychology of human development is interesting in itself and dynamic. We've come so far and yet if we do not advocate, if we do not, I guess I'm answering my own question of why I do these podcasts or why I do social media is like if we don't, Kate, it's like he ran like what 30 years ago? They weren't wearing burkas. I guess that's the whole thing is like, I know. what it's like to not be able to marry a white man. I know what it's like because I've seen it with my white uncles and my aunts losing their status. My aunts having no connection with communities. My poor aunt, she'd call my mom, she'd be so homesick, so, you know, it's lonely. My mother says, join an organization, join the Metis Association, join some, be active in whatever you can with other Indigenous communities. The identity is so important. And yet, you know, like when I try to explain that to people. You know, the things that hurt the most, you know, that hurt the most. like my friend Michelle, she says, Marina, I can't help that my father's a racist. He'll die a racist. All the things that he enabled his, mother, an indigenous woman, all those, that abuse, like, you know, all, you know, like, That's what white men and indigenous women have created. At what point does it become like healing? Great question. know, you know, like Michelle, she's an activist. You know, she's on social media. And that's why I say to women, part of combatting, combat fatigue is to be an activist and to have a narrative. Because if we don't do it, there's going to be someone out there, you know, narcissistic, Machiavellian female or man who wants to take those rights away from us. As easy as if it was given to us, they can be taken away. For all women, like the ability to buy your own home, to have your own credit card. Like that, like the sacrifice of being alone, lonely and angry and offending the male ego. Yeah, it's gonna come at a sacrifice. It's gonna come as a sacrifice because it means more freedom for women of all colors. But women have to step up to the plate and identify it and say, yeah, my father was a fucking racist. Or, yeah, my uncles were this and that and look at what they've done to my cousins. Even if my cousins refuse to even ⁓ come to my home, you know, like a white man coming to my home and then to have the lady who was here when he came be offended by the fact that he was in my house. You know, I've tried calling her to come back and do my... You know, like I hire her to clean my house. Kate, she hasn't called. She hasn't called what? I've been asking her to come and help me clean. She's, she's ghosted me. Oh no. Why? I don't know. You know, like that's what I'm trying to tell people. You know, I try and tell this, this white man, do know? Like I have to deal with stuff like this. I've been searching for a good housekeeper, and I've had white housekeepers too. But the very fact that she saw a white man in my house... You know, I tried to tell him I didn't want anybody to know he was traveling with me to Las Vegas. You know, like how racist, like, I mean, like how, like, just associating being around a white man. Like, it's one thing that I say I'm enraged and this is what white men have been doing. Without him even knowing this, he's participating. He doesn't even know it. I'm trying to explain to him because how can I explain to him? I can't go to this woman and apologize that he was in my house. No, why should you? Well, why would I even have to in the first place? Why? That's what I mean. Why would you have to? But it's the reality! It's like, it's like, like I said, that Facebook post, Marina is a pedophile. I have no say over it. They just did it. I have no say or my, my clean, my, my, my, my clean, my cleaning woman. I have no say. It's, is what it is. They don't like something. They don't want to be around it. They're projecting it onto me. I'm just existing. you know, trying to do the best thing I could do. And yet, this is the result. You it's one thing for me to talk about healthy human sexuality. It's one thing for me to talk about triggers. But just the mere, like how people perceive me as an Indigenous elder, just the mere fact that I had a white man in my home. I've worked with Indigenous women too in the work field, like in casual, like in labour. I've had to dig ditches and look for ordinances and having breaks and talking to young Indigenous women. And the reality of their, just the reality of like you're around white people. You know, I've had this even within my own family. You know, my own family, like you're educated, you're not indigenous anymore. The very fact I'm around a white man, I'm not indigenous anymore. What, because I'm talking to a white man rather than an indigenous man? Then does that say that I have an attitude to all Indigenous women now because I'm talking to a white man? My own, like I said, a relationship I had with this lady for 20 years. All she had to do was call me up, ⁓ Marina, I heard you were with this handsome man having tea. And, you know, like, and did he go with you to Las Vegas? That's all she had to ask. Look at it, look at it! I'm no longer friends with her! Look that's just a simple action of going to Las Vegas. Kate. You knew that when you were like, you knew that because you wouldn't have shared, you didn't share that information because you knew how people were going to expand their narrative about it. People just, they gossip. They create whatever they want in their heads. But that's extreme. Like if I came into your home, would you have friends who would disown you because you're talking to an Indigenous woman? No, I wouldn't have friends that did that. Well, that's easy for you to say. Look at everybody. I don't have the choice. Like, you know, if you had a cleaning lady, you had a cleaning lady, come in. and did exactly what my cleaning lady did to me. Don't be cruel to me just because I do have a choice. I'm, you know, like... No, it's not. It's not a question. Like you're making it a choice and I'm saying I don't have a choice. I hear you. I'm just saying you asked me a question and I answered. I answered from my own experience. I'm not doing it. I don't want to be condemned for but remember the one time too you were saying that this lady had talked to you and you were saying, like, I'm holding space and all this. See, like that, that's what I'm talking about that I've just experienced. You know, it's one thing that I anticipated it, you know, and it's another thing to actually, you know, breathe through it, you know, because it's after the fact. It's one thing to be intuitive about it, but it's another thing to validate it after the fact, after the action that took place. See, and there's no explanation for it. You can call it a phenomena. It had happened. This is the reality of the repercussions of me even trying to have a narrative about an indigenous medicine man, so-called medicine man. He could have been, you know, whatever. He could have been somebody else too. This phenomena happened. I had no say over it. The interaction of how people behave around situations that they don't feel comfortable with. That's why my friend, she says, Marina, the level of politics is totally, you know, that's just, it's small time politics. Indigenous women, we can't afford to not arise above that. It's inevitable. There are things we cannot do and say, because it has a ripple effect on our families. the politics and the understanding of what we do and how we have to advocate is so totally different. Yes, I had the insight to see all this. I had the wherewithal to do all this. and it comes at a price. So that's the grieving part of it. That's the grieving part of being an Indigenous elder. A lot of Indigenous elders wouldn't be able to have this narrative. I have young Indigenous ⁓ men looking and saying, Indigenous elder would have just walked away. My advocacy comes with a lot of sacrifice, not just my family. It's the actions. It's the actions of people. I always say creators will is being done, creator, grandfather, and grandmothers. but it's the reality of consciously accepting it. Like how can, how could I explain the dynamics of it? Yeah, it's, you know, I'm fortunate that I can go and do what I'm going to do. I want to celebrate when Nathan gets sentenced. That's what should have happened November 11th. I mean, March 11th. That's what should have happened. March 11th. I mean, I make it sound like Remembrance Day, but I guess in a sense, it's an unconscious ⁓ Freudian slip. You know, it's day of celebrating. Anyway, that's ⁓ I know I get I get schooled by my my peers. I get schooled by my my indigenous elder women. I think I'm tough, but I'm not. a lot. emotions are really coming up. and fair enough. Yeah, I think that's why I get angry with my niece and her children. This freedom came at a cost. I'm going, you can't, it's coming at a cost. thousands and thousands of children. I always use the analogy, yeah, the first 100 years, 500 years ago, they killed five generations of our children. That's 120 million children that died. Now you look at the over 10,000 children in the foster care system from our community east of here that are in foster care in the City of Calgary. losing their identity, losing their languages, losing any kind of pride they have of being Indigenous by being raised in non-Indigenous homes. It comes at a price. We have to talk about it. It's one thing to talk about all this and people saying, ⁓ Marina, how did you do this? I'm a human being just like anybody else who has intuitive instincts. I think that's why I want to protect this ⁓ white man who was trolling me to Las Vegas from people that I know in my community. Look at what happened. And he's not even aware of the consequences. Marina, is your narrative. Yes, I know it's my narrative. I'm processing my narrative right now. That's why I said it's hard, but we have to do it. I have to do it. Like, you know, when I talk to young people, I said, if I'm able to do this, and you're seeing me as an elder do this, then you know that all things are possible. Whatever struggle you're going through, you can handle it. You can live through it. You can process it. You can do this. You know, it's one thing for a young man to say, this elder here, what she's saying brings me hope. And these other three who are listening. You know, I'm going, it's important that our men are witnessing these things, that they're helping our young boys process these things. As a woman, our emotions and how we deal with things, we're a little bit more palatable and like palatable, we're, you know, we're like soft. People say, oh, well, you're soft. No, I'm talking about the brain's malleability in terms of processing emotions. It's important for young men to get that validation from from their older, their brother, their uncles, their friends. But like I said, a lot of this violence towards Indigenous women, even if a white man isn't even aware of the, has no participation in it, still is participating without even knowing they're participating. That's why, you know, I think when people say, well, how come APTM didn't pick up this narrative on Nathan chasing horse? It's pretty brutal. Pretty damn brutal. I'm just coming from like a different perspective, like being Canadian, so-called Canadian, colonized Canadian. ⁓ No, just have to... I still have to ⁓ behave the same way I behaved when I went down on November 11th. This is for my own ⁓ peace of mind too, because of the reality. This is like, I'm dealing with something that happened on November 11th and this is what, April 5th? Yeah, that's it. Like the, you know, I'm, that's why for me, I know... Just, ⁓ you know, even when I do ⁓ social media and I've had so many people say, well, is it going to be live? The sentencing is going to be live? Do you have a link? And, you know, I've tried, ⁓ Suchin and police sent me a video and that's not live. Even the news media in Las Vegas sent me a link and I'm going, no, that's not live. That's after the sentencing. And I thought, no, it's best that I go down and I bear witness and I post it on my social media. And I'll also post the link from like the ⁓ news media that's down there. But I do believe the people who've been following me on TikTok, Instagram and Facebook or... ⁓ Spotify. I'm getting more people on Apple podcast than I am anyplace else and other than you and not even a few listeners from YouTube. But it's interesting, like my audience. So, you know, it's important for me to, ⁓ like, to actually post something live there in the present. Because people have been affected, Indigenous people have been affected by this man. At what cost and at what kind of experience, I don't know. Sometimes they'll come up to me and they'll tell me their interactions with him. Other times they'll just want information. But in some ways there's a whole generation and generation of people who were ashamed to be Indigenous. And ⁓ we'll call it reinventing ourselves into what Indigenous means, means that we had to protect ourselves. You know, like Michelle said, she says, I can't help it that my white father is a racist. You know, I can't help it that, you know, some relatives of mine are pedophiles. You know, we have to live with family. We do. That's why I say comparative, restorative and transformative justice. People say, how can you do this? How can you live like this? Well, some things we have no... say over. Like I said, the example of my cleaning lady, you know, the fact that I had a white man in my house was enough for her to not ever come back. I have, you know, like it's, it's, it is what it is. And when it does happen and you're trying to be there supportive in an environment where, you know, there's a lot of innocence happening to people who you know, didn't even participate in whatever criminal act was taking place. I think that's the reality of it. like forgiveness of self. You know, I suspected my brother was doing something to Roberta. I'd call him and say, where is she? What's happening? ⁓ she's cleaning house. Or I'd see an interaction and yet there he is, know, he's got a girlfriend. Okay. Like all these scenarios I played in my head, should've, woulda, coulda, and then Nathan Chasinghors comes in. All that narrative I struggled with and then to realize the women that were having problems with their children were also having their own... They had their own... What did they call it when... Why just call it narcissistic Machiavellian? Their borderline personality disorder. That's the definition of what it is. But you know, trying to tell young people, if you've developed these disorders and you're young, you can heal from these. Look at me. You know, and that's the reality is like my exposing who I am to people who don't deserve to see. But I'm doing it so that people who deserve to see get it and know that there's hope out there. That's why when I talk to my Sioux relatives and I just say they had no voice. You know, can you, like I can't even comprehend how people would hunt a pregnant woman down, gut her and take the baby's scalp and their scalp. That's my great-grandmother's time. Yes, not that long ago. Yes! You know, all that hatred and anger projected and people interacting and trying to function. I don't know, maybe it is a phenomenon. The reality of the wild wild west coming to... coming... what do call it? It's like the deconstruction of a science fiction object coming to reality. I laugh, Kate, I laugh because it's such a hard thing. Like you said, I don't want to deal with the reality. I laugh. It's hard because it's emotional. I'm the one that has to live with this. Yeah, I I fully understand how emotional it is. I can feel your emotion. I can feel what you're going through. I don't fully understand all of it, but I 100 % can support it. It's just taken... It's just taken decades. It's taken decades. All people see are the marches, the banners for murdered and missing Indigenous women and children. That's all they see. They don't see the decades. I say I'm only one Indigenous elder voice. When I have Indigenous women come up to me and they say that they're living through exactly what I'm living through. I'm just grateful for ⁓ Sierra and the youthfulness. I'm grateful for like stuff that I wasn't able to do when I was their age. Like my late friend Barbara. Marina, you'll wonder why didn't you do this earlier? Well, Barbara's in the spirit world now. She's a grandmother. I'll just say because... It's like greater and grandfather's and grandmother's will being done. It takes time and support and cohorts and allies. And the amount of cohorts and allies helps in this whole catalyst happening. Because it can't happen just singular. It can't happen, you know, like with an enclosed environment because You know, just like people say, like they're publishing all these photos of the people who are on that spaceship going to the moon, and they look at the Earth and they're going, yeah, that's us. I'm going, yeah, that's us. That's us in a nutshell. Anyway, yeah, just, I know I woke up and I was tired and had to get all this phlegm out of my chest. Ate, hacked up a lung, went back to sleep, woke up and thought it was the next day in here. going, And then of course my dogs, they've disappeared. I go out for an evening and they take off on me. So they're still not back? No, they'll probably come back about one o'clock in the morning. Those kids. Tell me about it. Tell me about it. That's why I say I don't know how people can have dogs in homes like in apartments. They're wild, like my dogs are good and healthy, friendly puppies, but there's the wild side. That wild side. My dog never stayed anywhere that she was supposed to. She just took off when she wanted to. And yet bless their hearts. Do you know, like, I think, I don't know if I told you this, but when women sleep with a dog, she's she's more comfortable yeah you told me that yeah and whereas men have that same feeling when they sleep with their female female partners So caked? Both are not appealing to me. I, like, as much as I, you know, all my allergies and stuff, I can't have an indoor dog. And the one that I had ⁓ broke my heart. I just like, ⁓ my poor puppy. I can't go through that grieving again. The only dog in my life that ever stayed in my home and he... Tragic life. ⁓ poor baby. I wasn't there to protect him. just... No, he was too pampered. ⁓ my baby, yes. And then he was like... then he didn't have street smarts. Yes. I'm not going... No, I can't do this to the dog. I cannot do this. I gotta have tough love. Yeah, just like these two, these two nanas, they'll come back. They, they, they always do. ⁓ But anyway, no, I'm, feel a lot better, Kate. I just, you know, I've tried to debrief as much as I can today. And, ⁓ you know, ⁓ like I said, I, I never understood the reasoning why I'm not letting people know what I'm doing. It's because of the unexpected. Just... Yeah, you're protecting yourself. Yeah, I don't have a partner. I've never had a partner. You know, I've had to protect myself. However, you know, people don't understand it. It's good to take care of yourself. That's just that's self love. You're just, you know, that's not nothing wrong with that. That's normal. I would do the same. People are always searching for harming. They want stuff to harm. How can I harm someone? How can I feel better if I'm in a power position by taking out someone else? Yeah, I saw that kind of... Yeah, it's like if you don't deal with your identity as a child or a teenager, I had one ⁓ of the girls in order for her to feel, she had suppressed her feelings. She would take like a needle or something and just put it in her skin just to feel that pain, but she could, know, because she was so had desensitized herself so much. Like we had to watch these high risk, like when there are danger to themselves and others, you know, it's dangerous. It's not just dangerous for the person watching, it's also dangerous for the client, like for the child themselves. It's, you know, you know, it's, I, It's a very stressful job when you have to take care of children like that. I couldn't. I honestly couldn't do it, Marina. No, that's why it was important for me to talk to those survivors of Nathan's chasing course. To let them know this was my niece. There's a lot of children out there like her. And like her, she didn't survive. And hopefully, you know, there are children out there who are surviving and thriving and having support to talk, you know, have their narrative, have people supporting them and holding space for them. It's such a... I know when ⁓ people ⁓ give me a hug or say they appreciate me, it doesn't have a full impact until like even hours, and weeks later. It doesn't. It's just, you know, I've been so insulated in protecting myself. And it's not like I'm looking for attention or anything like that. When I was talking with Michelle, says, she says, Marina, says, in my addiction, I'm addicted to social media. So, you we all have our addictions and for me, like how I process what I'm doing, you know, it comes at a big risk, but I have to realize like, no, I have to deal with things the way I'm dealing with them and my realities. As much as I want to believe there are safe places, there are very few safe places. My home is my sanctuary. There's no loud music, no horns, no car horns, no blasting of sirens or anything. ⁓ You should have been here last night at 530. ⁓ I thought my like, and it was so loud, music. And I had a client too. I had to go in the bedroom. I know at the Golden Nugget they provide earplugs. If the partying is so loud you need to sleep, provide earplugs. Yes, ⁓ to be young and free. No, that's a misconception. When I was on Fremont Street and I saw all those elderly people... like and I'm handicapped and some of them are handicapped still giving her... ⁓ it was like the Calgary Stampede down the midway. Why not? So when I do go, I'm going to... I want to go on that big carousel as an observation deck and I'm going to ⁓ try and do a night tour on the bus touring the Strip. There are just so many, like when I look at TikTok or just feeds from Las Vegas, so many people, thousands and thousands of people keep on going back because there's so much to see. But, you know, I'm only going to be there one evening. So I thought, no, ⁓ like that one evening that ⁓ was free and just, I didn't know what to expect. didn't like, you know, ⁓ heck, Las Vegas. You'll be going, you'll be, you'll become a regular now. Oh I'm flying out, Kate! Yeah exactly. Oh shit. Oh and I'm gonna be staying at the same hotel? No, not that bad. I'm just saying, if I do ever go down I'll be just like so regular. Yeah, you'll have your entourage. It's just like when I go to Great Eagle, it's just like I have an entourage. People know me. ⁓ anyway, are you staying at the same place? Yeah. Yeah. Like I booked the, I booked the flight, ⁓ travel insurance. yeah, I'll be down Sunday, ⁓ trial sentencing Monday. ⁓ do some, do what I need to do as a tourist Monday evening. Monday morning I have breakfast and by one o'clock go to the airport and stay there for about three hours before I take off. Getting back home at 10 on Tuesday night. Yep, short and sweet and to the point. And I am going to take more pictures. ⁓ I don't know, should have, would have, could have. I'm still planning what I'm going to do and networking. I want to ⁓ talk to more, like to the people from Montana or California. Like I spoke with the lady from New Mexico more than I did anybody else. But just celebrate, just celebrate. I don't need to know their histories, the trauma around their experience with Nathan. I just want them to celebrate. I want it to be a celebration. If I'm going through what I'm going through, I can't even comprehend. They would really need to have that reminder that they're celebrating. All that work wasn't for nothing. Yeah. Yeah, well, I think that...