Latest / Booked On Rock with Eric Senich / "Wild Mood Swings: Disintegrating The Cure Album by Album"/Martin Popoff [Episode 141]

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"Wild Mood Swings: Disintegrating The Cure Album by Album"/Martin Popoff [Episode 141] · Booked On Rock with Eric Senich

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Oh, We're totally booked and I think I'll leave you do you're reading Little
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Hands, It's time to rock and roll, Bag rollout. We are totally
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booked. It's booked on Rock Podcast for Though. It's about to read and
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rock. Don't forget to subscribe and follow on YouTube, Facebook, Twitter,
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Instagram, and TikTok. Exclusive video segments from every episode weekly links to all
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the social media sites. At Booked on rock dot Com, Martin Popoff returns
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to the podcast. He's got a brand new book out titled Wild Mood Swings,
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Disintegrating The Cure album by album. Presented in an all new Q and
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A format, the book takes a critical analysis of The Cure's thirteen studio albums,
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utilizing a panel of music critics who appeared on Martin's video channel, The
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Contrarians. As a bonus to the discussion, Martin created a detailed timeline linked
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to each album. I would put The Cure in my top ten list of
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favorite bands. So I loved this book. It gives longtime fans a new
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appreciation for the music created by this rock and roll Hall of Fame band fronted
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by the legend himself, Robert Smith. Martin and I get into a discussion
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of The Cure. Were they postpunk? Did they launch the gothic rock genre.
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We also get into a side discussion about bands and artists who've been around
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for a long time. Is there a point where their creative well runs dry?
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That, plus a whole lot more. I put together a killer playlist
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of The Cure from the first album right up intil the last, including some
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stuff from their box set Connect the Dots. Check it out. It's on
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the show notes page. All right, we're talking The Cure with Martin pop
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Off. Martin, welcome back to the podcast. Yes, thank you,
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Eric. Looking forward to this. See as always, this is the first
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in which you hope to be a series of books that you hope to release
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in the future. Can you talk about the concept? This is interesting,
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talk about the concept of the book, how it differs conceptually from your previous
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books. Yeah. So we actually did a bunch of book similar to this
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with Motor Books years ago, and in that one, I um in that
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series of books, you know, the the mandate was to try to get
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uh, you know, fairly famous people. Try to get some celebrities mixed
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mixed in with super fans sort of thing. This series, I've just we
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have our um, we have our Contrarians Video channel, and and I have
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other other buddies who, uh, you know, we do all these panels
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with and stuff and they're they're wise music swamis as I call them. And
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basically, you know, we we get off one of these panels, I
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go, wow, you know that would make a great you know, discussion
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in a book, you know, added it down and polished like a diamond,
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you know, just just all the good stuff all the greatest hits from
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these wise comments that that got so God said. So so basically, I've
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I've got this idea that essentially the core of these these panel books that I'm
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going to do is going to be cast members from the Contrarians, And um,
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the nice thing is, is there going to be a mix of bands
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that I know super crazy well? Because actually so the funny thing that happened
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is the next one that's coming out is Blue Oyster Cult. And I thought,
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oh man, I don't want to do bands that I know absolutely incredibly
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incredibly well, because I'm just gonna be bored to tears listening to things I
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already know. Right, Um, but the Bluister Cult one has taught me
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that that there are a lot of great opinions out there that I never even
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thought about it. And I actually enjoyed doing the Bloister Cult one. So
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that's kind of changed, tweaked it a little bit. Um, But earlier
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on the concept was is I want to do bands that I that I know
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and I like and I've I've had their records over the years, but maybe
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I haven't spent a lot of time with them, and I want to I
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want to be the moderator and go into a process where I'm just listening to
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these super deep fans on these bands teach me a lot about this band and
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draw me back in and get me super excited about it again. And The
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Cure was a little bit like that. I mean, I've I've I've been
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a fan of The Cure since basically, I mean, I bought the debut
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as a new release, and I've been along for the ride the entire way,
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but it's always been pretty pretty arms length. I mean, I'm not
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I'm not the most knowledgeable Cure fan in the world, um, but I
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wanted to go through this process of listening to these guys tell me things that
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I don't know, and and to come up with because I'm basically the moderator
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in these things, and and and come up with just a good, long
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succinct chapter on a long succinct that doesn't make sense, but on on every
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single studio album. So that's the concept. It's it's me and three or
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four people per studio album, going through every studio album by a band and
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hopefully touching upon every song. I mean, I think we do that.
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The album cover, the production, all that stuff I like to write about
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in books anyways. Uh, and then and then there's gonna be kind of
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front matter that's going to be different for album depending if I've done a book
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on the band already here I've this is the first one I've done. So
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what I've done here is I've got a detailed timeline of every album cycle as
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we go through the things, So the whole thing works out to a timeline
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of the Cure's career as well. You know, a lot of detail,
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just like if I was doing one of those visual biography books for wimer Well.
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As an author of over one hundred books, this has got to be
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exciting for you because it opens it up now so you can write about bands
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that you hadn't planned on writing about before exactly. And I've had that process
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happened with other concepts, like like the Motor Books concept of the at fifty
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or at seventy five series. I never thought I'd write a book on David
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Bowie, but I have now, and it's a big, plush hardcover in
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a slipcase, the whole thing. And that's because they had a concept where
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it's like, we want you to write a book about seventy five David Bowie
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career milestones. It's like, okay, I can do that. So there's
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there's a lot of these books that I've never interviewed the Bank, I've never
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interviewed a member of the Cure, but this is a way to do a
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Cure book. I've never interviewed David Bowie, but that was a way to
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do a David Bowie book. So normally in the old days, you know
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the first books, the high priority books that I wrote years and years ago.
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It's like my rule was like, Okay, I'm not going to write
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a book on a band unless I've interviewed them twenty five times, right,
6:08
and then you know I crossed that threshold and it's like, Okay, now
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I have something new to say. But if anybody gives me a concept where
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it's not interview based and it's a band I would love to write a book
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on, like like in this series. You know, we've seriously discussed doing
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them on The Jam, the Smiths, the Doors. We've we've thought of
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some really cool ones to do and it's and it's bands like I know the
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Jam to death. I love the Jam, and I know the Smith's really
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really well too, and I know the Doors pretty well too. I Mean,
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these are not bands that I don't know at all, but they're bands
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I've rarely done video shows on, or haven't written a book on, or
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rarely have written about in any way whatsoever. So that's the cool thing with
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this. It's like, get together with some super fans and just just be
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taught about these bands or talk about these bands that are just fresh for all
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of us to be taught talking about. Sure, and you have a presence
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on the Internet, whether it's on YouTube or podcast, You're you're on so
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many of them. And I bet you never thought that there's an extra bonus
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to that is that you now can get content book content out of a podcast
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you know, never something you never thought of right when you first started doing
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it. Yeah, well that brings up a good point because the root of
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all of these ones I've done, um just to get me going, is
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a I've I've like surreptitiously been able to essentially audition uh, you know,
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like like we go on and have a Bluister Cult dark Horse album discussion.
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Right there's six people there. I've never heard any of these people talk about
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Bluister Calt. Again, I get to see who really knows their stuff and
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uh, and then right away it's like, Okay, I'm gonna ask that
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guy, that guy to be part of this. That guy, that guy,
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that guy, and then um, I've I've literally even used some of
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them some of the text from these discussions. I've done the transcript of the
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shows and use some of that in it highly edited. So I warn everybody
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in these panel books right away, it's like, I'm going to edit the
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hell out of you. Okay, realize you may not even recognize yourself talking
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here, because I'm really going to edit you because I want it to be
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highly entertaining and readable and substantive without a lot of boring words in between.
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Everything right, got a lot of generalities, certainly, no ums and ers
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and all that kind of stuff, right right. Um, So so yeah,
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that's the thing. I really want to edit these things down. And
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like I say, I mean even starting this series, so we got the
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Kire and Bloister cult coming and I'm working on two more right now. But
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even with this, I mean I did five of these before with with Motor
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Books. We did ACDC, Pink Floyd, Rush, Iron Maiden, one
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other one anyways, Yeah, lots of them, right right, that's right.
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So that's that's another one where I mean I have interviewed Kiss a bunch
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of times. I mean I could have maybe done a conventional book, but
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there's so many books anyways. But again, that whole situation was basically,
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you know, do do this thing? A CDC at fifty just came out,
9:05
right, So I was never going to write a conventional ac DC book.
9:07
But because Motor Books had this concept, um, and I'm not the
9:11
only one writing these for them, Um, you know, I've now done
9:15
three of them for them, and uh one I can't mention, I suppose
9:18
because I don't think they've announced it yet. Okay, I'm finished months and
9:22
months ago, So I talk a little bit more about the contrarians. It's
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Marco Doria that is either one that started this all and came to you or
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you guys together got to get together together. And and our buddy Nick who
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who has now stepped aside. But now we've got Grant Arthur in. So
9:37
there's there's three of us who are are sort of the the team running it
9:41
now. But we've got it. Like I say, we've got a cast
9:43
of all these new buddies. You know, it's great. I mean,
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and they're and they're all going to be part of these books sort of thing,
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you know, on a revolving basis. But yeah, so we've got
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probably a dozen other people who who are you know, on any given day,
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part of any given show. And yeah, the first concept, it
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was just I thought of it in like five minutes and then we ran with
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it for a while to start the first one. So it's like a person
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has a contrarian choice for their favorite album by a band, argue it,
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and then the other guys got to tell you how you're an idiot for you
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know, say saying there's no way that's the favorite album. Regular, Yeah,
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I emailed you or the Van Halen one you guys did, oh yeah,
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yeah, and you love Mine All Mine and I Love Mine all Mine.
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Yeah yeah, so that was one I was with you on. Yeah,
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So now we've got and then we did the worst album, and then
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we did build a Bad album, and then we've got all these dark Horse
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panels, which was more or less the inspiration for these books. And now
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we've got literally what is the contrarian album by a band in the catalog and
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argue you know why it is contrarian, rather than your own personal taste on
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it. So yeah, we've done variously we've done concept albums, right,
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We've we've done four of those where we build a concept album out of the
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band's materials. So I did one about did a double album of led Zeppelin
10:56
about all the Seasons, and Tim Durley did one about you know, the
11:01
rock and roll business and money and corruption and for ac DC. And what
11:05
was the other one? Oh yeah, he did a Sammy Hager one all
11:07
about all his outer space stuff. So it was like a Star Wars sort
11:11
of story, he's been visited by aliens. Yeah, Oh yeah, I
11:15
did his Easy Top one about driving around cars basically, you know, cars
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and girls sort of things. So yeah, I love it. I love
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fun too. Yeah, let's let's give props to the names of these guys
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that are in the books. We have Grant Arthur, Andy Black Sugar,
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Daniel Bosh, Todd Evans, Ryan Gavelier, Peter Kerr, Read Little and
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Ed Whitmore. Great group of musicians, musicologists, podcasters, YouTubers, journalists.
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Talk about this group a little bit. There's some really fascinating comments and
11:43
here really well thought out. I mean, these guys, at least as
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far as the cure is concerned, they know their stuff, yeah, for
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sure. And we've got two guys from Australia here. Read does a lot
11:54
of our does a lot of our hosting on the show. Ed Whitmore is
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a famous TV writer from the UK, but he loves music and knows his
12:05
music. Ryans musician himself, Andy Black Sugars, he's guitars for KMFDM and
12:11
Blondie and he's super insightful stuff. Grant's amazing, Like Grant's part of the
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team. Now, Todd totally knows his cure, So yeah, Todd would
12:20
come up with all sorts of obscure stuff about the greatest live performances of these
12:24
bands or whatever, so yeah, you just you Just what I do is
12:28
I kind of send out a letter saying, you know, are you a
12:31
super fan of this band? These are the two or three I'm thinking of
12:35
starting next. Are you a superfan? And guys are generally pretty honest,
12:39
and we'll write back and say, you know, no, I only know
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the first few albums or whatever kind of thing, and then they're kind of
12:45
disqualified. But then yeah, then I just go through it and I assigned.
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Basically, what I do is I go through the catalog and say,
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my next step is rank the entire catalog in terms of ones you think you
12:58
can talk about most with most wisdom, right, And then I get those
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lists back and I evaluate and say, okay, I'm gonna give you your
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two, your four, and you're six of the thirteen. Are you happy
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with that? And it's like, yeah, okay, that's cool. And
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other guys will say, I really need you to pick Wild Mood Swings or
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something new. Right. You know, with all these catalogs, there's stuff
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nobody really wants to talk about it, and generally it's the newer stuff,
13:24
right. Oh yeah, I remember when I got into them in the early
13:31
nineties, but then about ten years later when when eBay had that half dot
13:35
com I think they still have it. You don't even have to bid on
13:37
it. You just buy CDs for like three or four bucks. Because there
13:39
were so many, including the live stuff. It was like, I can't
13:41
afford to buy it, you know, all these three or four bucks each,
13:43
and I just kept collecting them, and you know, so I became
13:46
a huge fans That's why I love reading this book. You start with,
13:50
of course, that first album, and there's the term post punk. You
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know, that's something that we chat a little bit about through email before we
13:56
started recording about how that that's an interesting term, and really it has to
14:01
do with that first album, which was the debut from seventy nine title three
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Imaginary Boys. It was later released in the US and Canada Australia different track
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listing, and that was titled Boys Own Cry and that song was the band's
14:16
breakthrough single. But you asked the guys I'm the contrarians to describe what kind
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of record this is? It Is it postpunk? First? What is the
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definition of post punk? And does the Cure fit into that genre? Yeah,
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it's it's pretty interesting because it's not strange enough to be proper post punk.
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I mean, postpunk to me kind of begins with the likes of Magazine
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and Joy Division and early XTC. You know, more guitar based and drums
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or drums and wires XTC kind of thing, you know, and if you
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want to get even more radical, pil So the funny thing about The Cure
14:50
is that they're almost postpunk in that, you know, a big thing about
14:54
postpunk is is breaking the rules, and it's almost anti music. It's it's
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a little bit you can almost say it's halfways to the no wave movement of
15:05
New York City, but but not all the way there, right, which
15:09
gets even more radical. But basically, the funny thing about The Cure and
15:15
post punk is that they're starting with the the the the rudimentary, cave mannish
15:20
sort of simplicity, sort of remove the ego from the music thing of being
15:26
guitar based and drums. But then as they move along they have a renaissance
15:31
way to define and be even more postpunk by essentially being one of the key
15:37
bands that invents gothic rock or goth rock. Right. So, so at
15:41
that point, as you move into your your pornographies and the top and all
15:46
that kind of stuff. Right faith, you're getting a band creating a cannon
15:50
and a type of music that is it's almost like, um, it's almost
15:54
like the second coming of what maybe Joy Division did early on. So early
15:58
on, they're they're kind of almost like a they're almost even more punk rock
16:04
than the punk rockers in that whole narrative of anybody can get up and do
16:10
this, right, get up and play. And it's like that's one of
16:12
the things I thought it was always belittling and it's not something I I,
16:17
you know, ascribe to in a big way about punk rock. But The
16:18
Cure was kind of like that as well. So the Cure was almost like
16:23
The Cure was almost like a punk rock band with clean guitars. And they're
16:29
a little poppier than a punk rock band, yes, a little more musical,
16:33
but not even very musical, especially on that debut. I mean,
16:36
it's really amateurish, right, So, so that is, you know,
16:41
if you want to, if you want to elevate that as part of the
16:44
philosophical discussion, they're they're being anti music the same way punk is, but
16:49
they're they're even being more anti music, and you know it's going down that
16:53
anti music way that p. I. L. Goes way down an anti
16:57
music way, right, really trying to invent what it is, you know,
17:02
what what can you dare to put on a record kind of thing?
17:06
Right? Um, But then they quickly evolved and like I say, they
17:10
get they get darker, doomier, the lyrics get better. Um, there's
17:14
still very rudimentary, they stay simple, but but all of a sudden they're
17:18
a key component of this whole gothic rock thing, and and goth rock for
17:22
for a brief period there before before the term postpunk gets cast aside and we
17:27
we can't even use it anymore, and it basically isn't used or it becomes
17:32
meaningless. For a brief time there, gothic rock and post punk are are
17:37
bedfellows. Um, and that goes eighty three, eighty four whatever. And
17:41
then and then gothic rock lives on and postpunk gets retired. And it is
17:47
quick though. That second album. I always thought that Robert Smith really on
17:51
that first album, he had input, but not as much. He takes
17:55
over from the second album forward more and more as it goes along. And
18:00
the second album, you can just see on the cover. This is from
18:02
nineteen eighty seventeen Seconds. It's got that gloomy cover. It's like a distorted,
18:07
blurred out photo, which from if I recalled correctly, he was just
18:10
one of the guys in the band just took a picture and they smudge it
18:11
and you know, because it's low budget, you know. But then Faith
18:15
in nineteen eighty one, those two set up Pornography from eighty two, and
18:21
I would say, although a comment on your show from Grant Arthur is interesting.
18:25
He says, although Pornography is always credited as being the first goth record,
18:29
seventeen Seconds is very much a goth album. Read little notes the David
18:33
Bowie Brian Eno influence on Faith, which I know Robert Smith is a big
18:37
fan of. We discussed the topic of postpunk gothic rock, so let's get
18:41
into that a little bit more. I mean, what are the elements of
18:44
a gothic rock band? I mean, how much of it it's the sound?
18:48
How much of it is the look of a band? And are the
18:51
cure of the originators? I don't believe they are, but they made it
18:53
famous. Well so the originators of this. Ah boy, it's it's hard
18:59
to say. I mean, you could you could go to your Sammon and
19:04
Misfits kind of thing. You could go to your Bouhouse, you could,
19:07
you could go to David Bowie the early. You could go to the Damned,
19:11
because the Damned are pretty quick into it. Not not so much on
19:15
the first three albums, but on the fourth one. They're starting to get
19:18
there, right with the Black Album and Strawberries, uh, and then certainly
19:22
Phantasmagoria. So the Cure are in there really early, so you have to
19:26
put them in there. And Joy Division you have to put in there definitely
19:29
early two. Um, you know, seventy nine for Joy Division, and
19:33
yeah, the Cure is right in there. Um. But um, we're
19:36
about Sisters of Mercy. I think they're after I think they started this early.
19:41
Um. And then who knows what start is because start, you know,
19:45
start start for us when you're not sitting in London often you know,
19:49
in my in my mind frame, in the way my brains made up,
19:52
means when is your first album out sort of thing, right, But some
19:56
of these bands go, you know, they start playing live and then they
19:59
start putting out goals and stuff. But anyways, lookwise, the Cure are
20:03
totally in there as as super super important for the look. How important is
20:07
the look? You know, that's that's more of a girl thing, right
20:11
honestly, Uh, it's That's what I find really interesting about music discussions between
20:15
guys, that guys and gals. You know, gals really talk about fashion
20:18
a lot. It's pretty it's pretty interesting in the narrative to them, um,
20:23
more than it is for us. But the cure totally, totally Robert
20:26
Smith is that is that quintessential look with the with the eyeliner and the the
20:32
the even the looks on the look on the face, but certainly the hair
20:36
h and all that. So um so yeah, you know you you look
20:38
at this, you know, seventeen seconds through faith through pornography. Um,
20:44
and that's that's quite a quite a compelling argument for them being super important.
20:48
Maybe maybe first maybe the anchor of the whole thing, Robert's hair just gets
20:52
bigger and bigger. Yeah, yeah, pornography. Read Little said it's a
20:57
little one dimensional, no lightning shade, all dark. Andy Black Sugar says,
21:02
it pulls you in right away, keeps you right to the end.
21:03
This doesn't seem like an album for the casual cure. Fan. I think
21:07
you have to really be into the band to appreciate it. Am I wrong?
21:11
What do you think of? Yeah, a lot of drugs and drink.
21:14
It's a pretty dark They're still pretty simple, I mean, I I
21:18
really think the sophistication really picks up with the top Um and that's one of
21:22
my favorite Cure albums, and that that had Head in the Door is my
21:26
favorite sort of period, So I think I think they really pick up with
21:29
the production and the layers and the things they put in the instrumentation. Uh,
21:33
the arrangements really really sort of picks up. And that's all Robert,
21:37
you know, doing doing his side projects and Susie and the Banshees and all
21:41
that stuff is really affecting him and he's really growing as a person and a
21:45
musician through that period. So yeah, I really appreciate more where they're going
21:52
After pornography. There was also a side project, the Glove, which I
21:56
think was it was never on CD form, so I had to buy it
21:59
on cassette transferred onto a CD, and I think I have the cassette somewhere
22:03
still. That was with one of the guys from Susie the Banshees. I
22:07
think he formed it. Yeah, that are eighty five to ninety two.
22:11
Like you said, you're a fan of the Top and Head on the Door,
22:15
which are back to back there, and that's where we start to get
22:17
into Robert Smith's really crafting these great pop songs. And that's when I become
22:22
a fan. From eighty five to ninety two, really the Top from eighty
22:26
four. You're a fan of this album and Head on the Door, as
22:29
you said, and you note that in the introduction. Now I find that
22:30
interesting because the Top it's kind of often overlooked. When did you first hear
22:36
that that album? Definitely as a new release, And I liked it because
22:40
it was heavy and murky and complicated. And I loved Head on the Door
22:44
for the acoustic guitars, the beautiful production, the poppiness. But it's it's
22:49
still pretty dark and interesting poppiness, right, It's Zeppelin Esque at times,
22:55
so it's just got this cool mystique to it. And then kiss Me,
22:57
kiss Me, kiss Me. I bought that as a new release and did
23:00
not like it very much. I mean, I just too many songs.
23:03
It's a double album, too many, too varied, too cheerful, too
23:08
many melodies, that rubbed me the wrong way. I didn't like the production.
23:14
I think we talk a little bit through this book as well about how
23:17
the album covers can affect, um what you think of the music and clothes,
23:22
sometimes a certain color. Um. It's it's an interesting idea that that
23:26
you know that that album cover can can can make it sound more cheery than
23:30
it actually is, or it can make an album sound darker than it actually
23:34
is. You know, I always talk about a CDC Back in Black being
23:37
the most incongruous album cover you can possibly imagine, right because it's so morose
23:41
of an album cover, and it's just an incredible party album, right,
23:45
It's just so upbeat, right, So it's it's funny, right, but
23:49
yeah, so so that that did bother me. It's it's a it's a
23:53
double album that I I I would I would like to have said, Wow,
23:57
let's let's pick my favorite songs and make it a single album. It's
24:00
like, it's like that thing we do with the clash Sand and Easta all
24:03
the time, right, just take that into a double album that beats London
24:07
Calling, right Yeah yeah, but you gotta I'm a sucker for just like
24:10
Heaven. Yeah sure, yeah, yeah, Yeah. That's the funny thing
24:12
is as we moved through time, there's these iconic songs, and I was
24:18
not paying that much attention to most of these hits as we go on.
24:21
Um, there's these bands where you um, it's another interesting concept where there's
24:27
there's bands and they put an album together and you just love the whole package
24:32
and concept of the whole album. So you're championing the band and thinking they're
24:36
geniuses and and so you're gonna you're gonna go easy on songs that you don't
24:41
like on an album. And then there's albums where you you don't have confidence
24:45
in the band anymore, and now you're gonna gonna go hard and be a
24:47
little cynical about them. And that's and that's what I felt about with kiss
24:51
Me, kiss Me, kiss Me. I just felt like i've, I've
24:53
I'm not on board with with the whole philosophy of the band at this point,
24:57
whereas the previous album it's seemed like they were just making some cool occult
25:02
to chemical alchemical magic sort of thing, you know, as as shown on
25:07
the album cover kind of thing. The book Down Rock Podcast. We'll be
25:10
back after this Martin popoff brand new book on the Cure out now. It's
25:15
titled Wild Mood Swings Disintegrating the Cure Album by album. Well, Disintegration,
25:21
that's the huge one. That's nineteen eighty nine all over MTV in the radio,
25:26
Lullaby Fascination Street Pictures of You Love Song went to number two, and
25:30
then you have the nineteen ninety two album Wish High A Letter to a Lease
25:36
Friday I'm in Love top twenty read. Little told you he thinks the Cure
25:40
are best doing two types of songs, the sweet pop and the angsty joy
25:42
division gothic songs, and we get a lot of that during this period of
25:45
the Cure, with the exception of Disintegration. I would say, not an
25:49
easy thing to pull off. Can you think of a band who has pulled
25:53
this off better than the Cure, at least as far as commercially speaking,
25:57
Yeah, absolutely not. I mean, and there's no band like the Cure
26:00
that's as big as the Cure. I mean, it's it's incredible how huge
26:03
of a band they are. And I love all the stuff they say about
26:07
Disintegration in here. I mean, obviously it's just such a revered album.
26:11
And Wish is a little bit disintegration too. But so at this point they're
26:15
they're they're still they're carrying that that goth flag and they're and they're literally the
26:21
most massive spokesman for this. I mean, they're the only goth band.
26:25
I suppose that's a that's a an arena band all through this period, right.
26:30
And then also at the same time, they're they're kind of they're kind
26:33
of part of the whole idea of shoegaze at this point too, right,
26:37
I mean, just just the with a massive synthesizer washes and long songs and
26:41
slow songs and slow builds to songs. Um. So where did that term
26:47
come from? Shoegaze? You know, that's all. Yeah, I don't
26:51
know much about the genre itself, but I've heard that, Yeah, he
26:55
was shoegaze fan. I'm like, excuse me, Yeah, I mean the
26:59
term I believe comes from just standing there staring at your shot and is completely
27:03
boring music. Right, Um, that's kind of the idea. It's just
27:07
supposed to take you away like hawkwind or old psychedelic music in a way,
27:11
right, Um, just layers and layers of just drony sound kind of thing.
27:15
Right. So, the Cure kind of kind of you know, they're
27:18
semi in in the idea of inventing it through this period and then things change
27:23
wildly for Wild Mood Swings, for sure, that's a that's a really step
27:27
outside a zesty, upbeat, you know, drummy sort of album where they've
27:33
never been a drummy band, and if they are a drummy band, it's
27:37
it's like, oh, look, there's a tribal rhythm going on there.
27:40
But it's really simple, right, very atmospheric too, which is cool,
27:45
you know, the way they blend the music. Well, actually, that's
27:47
a comment that I really love from Read literally says of Disintegration. One of
27:51
the reasons why Disintegration is a more popular album is that Robert's voice makes this
27:55
album more accessible. What he's saying is that there's a fifty fifty blend of
27:59
music and lyrics. The lyrics aren't delivered in a harsh and confrontational manner,
28:03
and that in turn opens up the music. That's a great way to look
28:07
at that. Although you know, Wish when higher on the charts, but
28:11
still, I mean the Disintegration it's considered the greatest Cure album, and and
28:15
yet did you get why this particular album became so popular at the time.
28:19
You said you weren't really follow at the time. I was not. I
28:22
was not checking in in a big way to The Cure. I mean at
28:26
the time, I just, uh, I could not. I could not
28:30
handle that much production and slowness and keyboards, synthesizers essentially right or an atmospheric
28:37
nous um. So yeah, I was. I was into other things at
28:41
the time. But yeah, you you you do learn through these guys that
28:45
is it essentially is their masterpiece, and they argue it super well why it
28:49
is. Yeah, they say some great things in that chapter is probably my
28:52
favorite chapter, but but it's still I'm not convinced that it's my favorite Cure
28:56
album either would The Cure B has been if not for MTV. Yeah,
29:02
that's the other thing. They did great videos, and that's talked about a
29:04
lot in the book. You know, whenever there's iconic videos, these guys
29:07
describe them and talk about fond memories of seeing that sometimes as the first thing
29:12
they've they've gotten from it. So so yeah, that that was an important
29:15
part as well. Really interesting videos, pretty surreal. The guys are pretty
29:19
photogenic given their given their gothness and the songs come across and you know,
29:26
you could argue that these songs are there's there's often not a lot of action
29:33
in them. So so they are enhanced by having the visuals as well.
29:37
Um, so I think it helps them out. You know, I think
29:40
they're better. I think they're better in video than even even live sort of
29:44
thing. Right, this is not a jump around crazy band right right when
29:48
it comes comes to live as well. So, um, it's like a
29:51
brand, right, the brand of that that's the look. Yeah, you
29:55
know that became such Edward Scissorhands, the look of Edward scissor Hands molded after
30:00
Robert Smith. Though, Yeah, I would think MTV made a big,
30:04
big difference, for sure, for sure. Yeah, it's it's it is
30:07
amazing how big this band is and how how big they've been for solong.
30:11
Yes, I just saw a Rolling Stone headline the biggest tour of the summer,
30:15
and then the headline says, yeah, that's right, you know,
30:18
like because you because a lot of people thought, you know, there's a
30:21
lot of people say, whatever happened to the Cure because a lot of the
30:25
fair Weather fans stopped following them. But man, they have them fan base.
30:29
I think they have maybe two nights at Madison Square Garden, but even
30:33
one night is pretty pretty damn impressive for Ben that hasn't had a hit single
30:37
in thirty years exactly. Yeah, And you know, it's so funny,
30:41
you know, you look at Blood Flowers, Through the Cure and four thirteen
30:44
Dream and the same thing happens in this alternative rock goth world that happens in
30:51
every other genre where you get to a part of a career where the band
30:59
is basically influenced by themselves. Yes, and they're and they're making safe,
31:04
super competent albums that the fans are like. It's easy to love, but
31:11
it's easy to complain about it at the same time, right, so interesting
31:15
chapters. Yeah, I see that in all our heavy metal stuff, and
31:19
every single band pretty much eventually comes around and then and then you're either then
31:26
you're either saying, oh I love this, this sounds like the the Old
31:30
Cure, or um this album or this album or this album. A Heart
31:33
is a great example of this as well. Kiss is a great example.
31:37
You know, you think of Sonic Boom and Monster. It's the same kind
31:41
of thing where it was like it's either the best thing they've ever done and
31:45
it sounds totally like it could have come out in the seventies, or you
31:48
know, as most Kiss fans will do because they're all angry, they complain
31:52
about them, uh and and say, you know, oh our crap,
31:56
right, they're just you know, they're just boring, safe, whatever kind
32:00
of thing. So so every one of these these Cure albums as well,
32:05
basically sounds like a super competent, accessible but still dark, just like they
32:13
all three of them sound like a really professional version of The Cure, right
32:16
right, Yeah, Well that leads to the question that I have for you.
32:21
Peter Kerr actually said on The Contrarians that the last two Cure albums are
32:24
outstanding, but they were ignored. But I feel I'm kind of where you're
32:29
at, Martin, because I enjoy them, but I feel like I've already
32:32
heard this before, and I don't know if it's not that I'm ignoring them,
32:37
and I'll go back and listen to them. But is there a point
32:39
because you followed artists and bands throughout careers, for bands who've been around for
32:45
a long time, is there a point where every band or artist gets to
32:47
where they've reached their creative peak. Or is it the fault of maybe the
32:52
record labels, the radio stations, the media for ignoring anything new or dangerous
32:57
from an artist. Yeah, it's it's well, I think it's different for
33:04
everybody. I mean there's there's people like Iggy Pop, for example, who
33:07
try wildly crazy different things sometimes on on later albums. Right, just just
33:14
they go way off concept and do do something bizarre, right, a French
33:17
jazz album or whatever. Right, but you know, so so this so
33:22
this play it safe and make a professional version of your greatest highlights. Thing
33:27
happens with a lot of bands, and like I say, generally, you
33:31
know, those records aren't hated, but they're not love the whole lot a
33:35
lot either, So they're they're usually kind of accepted and they're there, and
33:39
as time goes on, I think the value of those albums rises because as
33:44
as time goes on, they just become part of the past and part of
33:47
the whole thing as well, because I've noticed this with going on video shows
33:51
and talk to people. When when when a fan comes in on a band
33:53
super late, everything in the past is just one clump in the past.
33:57
They aren't back they aren't complaining about where they fit in the catalog. It's
34:00
exact all a long time ago, right, So yeah, I don't know.
34:06
I think in this case it's certainly not the label telling them what to
34:08
do. Um, that's that. I think that those times are over because
34:13
the stakes these days are even starting as far back as about two thousand and
34:17
five. I think the stakes are not super high with selling a lot of
34:22
records anyways. So the bands are doing what they want to do, you
34:27
know, have they reached their creative peak and stuff? That's a whole other
34:30
philosophical, you know, discussion too. It's like sometimes you you you go,
34:36
well, it's sensible that anybody in any profession just gets better and better
34:39
and better and better at it all the time. They have more smart things
34:43
to say. They're smarter people in their fifties and sixties, right, They're
34:45
supposed to have more life experience and probably could write better lyrics. Why can't
34:51
they write better, better music? Why why aren't they just, on the
34:53
objective face of it, better guitarists than they were in the past. So
34:59
you would think that would be the sensible thing. But then there's that whole
35:01
other argument that I've heard people eloquently put and say, you gotta literally be
35:07
hungry to make great art. You gotta want it so, you gotta need
35:12
it so bad that that you literally are missing meals on the road because you
35:15
have no money. You know, you're living off of the peanut butter sandwiches,
35:20
right or worse ketchup sandwiches or whatever. Right. Uh, you know
35:23
you hear those stories. Oh we went on the road, man, you
35:28
know, between it, between us all we had, we went in and
35:30
bought a loaf of bread and a and a start. Uh. Um,
35:35
what's that? What's that stuff called cheese? Whiz? Right? And right?
35:40
Steven Adler of Guns and Roses, he wrote in his book that he
35:43
used his drumsticks so they could start a little fire to cook their food,
35:46
and that in that one room apartment, they all unbelievable, But there is
35:51
something to be said for that. Yeah, I was so yeah, you
35:53
know, And and you know, the sort of parallel story of that is,
35:58
uh, do you make your best music when you're in your twenties?
36:01
You know that's a huge debate, right, and why would you make your
36:06
best music? And then when you think back to our own youth and say
36:08
we were we were more impetuous and crazier and took bigger risks. So probably
36:14
these bands took bigger risks with their creativity because they didn't know what they didn't
36:17
know, so they just leapt in, right, Yeah, And so maybe
36:21
that's why the art is better in your twenties later on, because later on
36:25
you know too much and you know what mistakes not to make, so you're
36:30
just you. You turn in something safe. So maybe that's a little bit
36:35
of what's happening with The Cure, right. Maybe the argument against that is
36:38
David Bowie though that last album you put out, critics loved it, fans
36:43
loved it, and he wasn't making the same album. Yeah right, that
36:46
was splack Star. Well, and I'm starting on one of these books,
36:51
like the Cure book on Robert Plant and you want to talk about a guy
36:53
who's just like way, just an more of sounds and weirdness. I mean
36:59
Robert plants last albums. Granted they sound similar to each other, but they
37:04
certainly are an old guy being super creative and going to wild places which music
37:10
and always love. Yeah. Such a that's really cool about him. You
37:15
know, he's he's certainly not making led Zeppelin albums or even Principle of Moments
37:20
or you know, Pictures of eleven all over again. It's not even using
37:23
conventional drums and stuff. I mean, it's literally just wild, crazy music
37:29
and really wild production values. Well see that's the other end of Then here's
37:32
a guy who's got plenty of money. He's not starving, so he's then
37:37
using I guess that premise he's saying, then let's just have some fun,
37:42
let's be creative. I don't have to make the same album over and over
37:45
again, so let's do what we want to do. I think, I
37:49
know. Robert Smith has always always threatened the idea of a solo album,
37:54
never has and it always winds up being a cure album. I always am
37:58
curious as to what it would sound like a Robert Smith's solo album. Does
38:01
he have other thoughts in mind? Other Yeah, you know, musical textures
38:07
and yeah, you know. And the reason they become cure albums is because
38:12
they're they're basically Robert Smith's solo albums. Anyways, He's got just all these
38:15
different people coming and coming and going all the time, and base six guitar
38:20
lyrics singing, you know, all sorts of things are so much him,
38:22
you know, writing in the music. Um, so there's so so it's
38:28
so much him anyways, and uh and see that that's a thing that that
38:32
is is just a pragmatic thing. Anyways, if you're gonna go do this,
38:37
even if it's a little wild and weird, you may as well stamp
38:38
the Cure on it. And then and then people like us will applaud and
38:42
say, wow, you made a wild and weird Cure album. It's like,
38:45
well, right, right album, but whatever. So so that that's
38:47
where the label definitely I've seen many many times come in and say, you
38:51
know what, just just stick the big name on it, the big brand
38:53
name. You me as well, right, Yeah, Well, let's get
38:55
to the lineup changes, because that's also that's a fascinating part of this.
39:00
That's the story of the Cure. According to Wikipedia, there are a total
39:04
of twenty three different lineups. Twenty three different lineups or Robert Smith's been there
39:10
since day one, a bassist Simon Gallup. He's been in the band pretty
39:14
much most of the time. He had he had a falling out once or
39:16
twice, then he came back and I believe Robert was Simon's best man at
39:22
his wedding or vice versa or both, but whatever, he's back. Quite
39:27
a few guys coming and going. But yet the Cure sound is really intact,
39:30
and that's thanks Sir Robert Smith. Yeah, I mean, I think
39:32
the interesting thing with all these lineup changes is they always seem to be pretty
39:37
gradual, and there's and there's like core guys. You know, it's not
39:40
it's not radically different album to album, and so that over time you start
39:45
building it up and seeing, okay, well there are these standard characters who
39:49
have been part of it for long stretches of time. So I think that
39:52
all helps. But yeah, this this really is a situation where it's this
39:55
guy's vision and most of those other guys basically I don't have a super out
40:01
there upfront distracting sound of their own too. It all, it all just
40:06
melds into this soupy thing that becomes most Cure songs, whether they're the old
40:10
soupie or the or the synthesizer soupie like either one. Um, it's just
40:15
it all melds into this, uh almost like atmospheric music. Paul Thompson,
40:21
I should mention because there's a connection there with Robert plant Ul Thompson is on
40:24
at least one of Robert's albums orl Thompson is he's the one guy. I
40:30
guess if you listen to The Cure enough, you'll pick up on it.
40:34
You'll know it's him on these on these songs. I love it because he
40:37
was there during that that big commercial era. But I always love because he
40:42
glides over the beat with just nice rhythmic guitar work, atmospheric. It's interesting.
40:50
I always wondered Roberts is there another side to Robert Smith? Is he
40:52
like a nasty guy? To deal with this too? I mean, how
40:53
many all these lineup changes? And then you'll hear guys kind of hint at
40:58
him being difficult to work with with their quotes when they leave the band,
41:01
But then they come back. So what is it about him that they can't
41:06
deal with and they leave? Even what is it about him that brings him
41:08
back in? I mean, I find him fascinating because we don't know much
41:12
about him the person. Yeah, yeah, the interviews are really funny to
41:15
watch, right, Yeah, very passive, aggressive, right, And he's
41:19
been married to the same woman since I think his high school Sweetheart. Yeah,
41:22
yeah, yeah, and there has been a lot of drugs and drinking
41:25
the band as well through the years. Yeah, they're just they're just highly
41:30
creative, opinionated people, right, I mean, they really are making super
41:34
high, high minded art. Parl. Parl is actually even wilder on the
41:37
Robert Plant albums, and then I think he's even more I almost dare say
41:43
he was probably more inspired by Robert and Robert Plant in some way than Robert
41:46
Smith, because he's he's so distinct what he does with Robert. But yeah,
41:52
pretty interesting. Uh yeah, yeah, I'm I'm sure the making of
41:54
these albums is fraught with a lot of drama, that's for sure. Oh
41:58
yeah, what a great last thought. The book from Ed Whitmore, leading
42:01
British screenwriter and executive producer. You mentioned that early on he's behind the hit
42:06
true crime series man Hunt for ITV by the way, and he says,
42:09
quote Robert Smith does is he lures people in with some pretty melodies and sometimes
42:15
maybe immersive, big labyrinth things with cynthy soundscapes, and then once he's got
42:22
you, the spider bites you, once you're caught in the web. He
42:24
later talks about how every single Cure album has at least two solid gold pop
42:30
gems, and much to the envy of his peers, nobody else from that
42:35
alternative rock world could really do that, and that's what makes the Carosel special
42:38
to millions of fans around the world. Yeah, it's quotes like these that
42:43
pack this book. I mean, they're just packed with You have to be
42:45
excited about what's to come with this series of Q and A books that you
42:50
hope to continue with. So you say you've got some in the works that
42:53
are coming out. Is there one band or artist that you're really excited about
42:58
that again, you wouldn't have done before because you're not familiar enough with him
43:02
or you're not Yeah, I tell you, I'm really excited to have this
43:07
Bloister Cult one come out because I think it's twice as long as as the
43:09
Cure one. And I was I was pleasantly surprised how entertaining it was listening
43:14
to these guys, so that this is a band you love. So this
43:15
is the one that doesn't fit in your question. But I would love to
43:20
do the Jam one. I just love the Jam I play those guys constantly.
43:23
Um, that would be cool. The Smith's one would be cool too.
43:25
The challenge with the Smith's one, and I've you know, in my
43:29
preliminary getting it together and working on getting my panels. It's like, there's
43:32
not a lot of albums, and then what do you include? Do you
43:35
start including the compilations? Um, you know, there's a lot of complication
43:39
to this catalog, but it's not along catalog. So so I like the
43:43
idea JAM is like this as well. I like the idea of rising to
43:46
the challenge of doing some of the ones where the catalog is only six or
43:51
seven or eight records long kind of thing. Uh. And then and then
43:54
like the Doors, same thing, right, Um, and then really have
43:58
to have the guys super dig into them and maybe have larger panels per album,
44:04
like five or six people per album, and and really get a deep,
44:07
deep, deep dish dive into these albums, because when I'm doing them
44:10
and there's fifteen albums in the catalog, you know, I'm I'm I'm usually
44:15
kind of up to maybe three guys per album sort of thing. But yeah,
44:20
it'd be it'd be interesting too. I'm just looking forward to what these
44:22
guys say about the Smiths, the Doors and yeah, you know, Sticks
44:25
this one we've talked about as well, and Thin Lizzie working on working on
44:30
a Thin Lizzie one. And that's another one where that's literally because of how
44:36
much I enjoyed doing the Bloister Cult one, I thought there's no way I
44:38
would do a Thin Lizzie one. I've written a trilogy of the Thin Lizzy
44:42
story plus a visual biography, and the trilogy is now two books. So
44:46
there's a lot of bands I've done books on that I thought I I couldn't
44:51
bear to do another one. But but yeah, listening to these guys,
44:53
it's it's it's pretty interesting. So um yeah, what about would you would
44:58
you consider bringing in people who absolutely hate the band or the artist just to
45:02
get the other side. I don't interesting idea. I never really thought about
45:07
you get the two sides of it. I don't know if that would work.
45:08
There are people that there are people that love the Doors, which and
45:10
I'm one of them, but there are people that just don't get them.
45:14
Yeah. I don't get the Doors at it, you know, Eric,
45:16
You know, thinking of that question, it's almost better because a you get
45:21
someone who really hates the band, they don't know anything about the band,
45:22
They won't say very much, but it's really neat when people love the band
45:28
so much and they can be also super critical of them, right, So
45:30
that's us. I noticed that with the super fan cycle with certain with certain
45:36
bands, it's very pronounced kiss is a big one. Like I say,
45:37
they're very angry fans. Right. So when you become a bigger and bigger
45:42
and bigger and bigger fan of the band, you love them so much,
45:45
love them so much, and then at the other end you start complaining about
45:49
them. Van Halen's like that, Yeah, van Halen fan basis like that.
45:52
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Every time I post something to the Van
45:54
Hallen news desk, I'm kind of afraid to scroll down, exactly. And
45:59
you know, part of part of the ilogy, part of that psychology is
46:05
is that when you become such a massive fan of a band, you feel
46:09
a confident in your views, but be you feel I've paid my dues.
46:14
I've spoken so much about how much I love this band, and I'll continue
46:16
to do so, but that allows me the space to also say the bad
46:21
things at the same time. Right, So at once, at some point
46:24
you you get past being political about them and say, you know what,
46:29
I've if any of the guys in the band hear me talk about them this
46:32
way, they also know that I've I've spent dozens of hours praising them to
46:37
the hills and calling them rock gods, and they realize, at least with
46:43
this guy, it's time to take the good with the bad. Right I'm
46:45
a bit like that with Ted Nugent, right um or now. I don't
46:50
pull my punches on what I don't like about Ted Nugent, because in a
46:53
weird way, it's because I'm on record so much about literally almost all love
47:00
Grenade and Craveman, my two favorite Ted Nugent albums, right wow. So
47:04
later later Ted Nugent I love a lot. But then then he did those
47:07
sort of short jokey ep, last couple of albums where I really, you
47:13
know, take them to the cleaners on them. Right. So it's like
47:15
I almost feel like I can say those things about those latest two albums because
47:21
two very recent albums. I'm that wacky idiot out there in the world who's
47:24
saying they're the best things you ever did. What about Damn Yankees? Did
47:28
you like the Damn Yankees period? Not particularly a lot? And I'm on
47:31
record for saying Fred Bear's a dumb song. I don't like it at all,
47:36
and apparently it's a masterpiece in the Ted Nugent fan right. So,
47:39
so by being a massive, deep Ted Nugent fan and having written the only
47:43
book on Ted Nugent, I feel, I feel I have license to say
47:46
that. And that's where I like about these panels. It's like these guys
47:50
have been spans for so long they'll go ahead and tell you what they don't
47:52
like to. Yeah. Well, just to tie this up with the Cure
47:55
theme, listen to The Cure's cover of I Love You. I Think that's
48:00
on one of the Doors compilations. Was that one that came out in the
48:04
nineties. It's okay, decent version, but Robert's a huge Doors fan.
48:07
Maybe you can get Robert on your show. Well, that brings up another
48:10
point about these these panel books, especially the curates, Like you could tell
48:15
these guys are super deep artists simply by the amount of things they haven't put
48:19
on the albums, but the box sets and things. Right the box that's
48:24
all the B sides, and you know, nicely I prodded them to make
48:30
sure, you know, we talk about a lot of the songs that aren't
48:32
on the albums as well, right right, join the dots as the box
48:36
set. I suggest anybody who go out and listen to that, especially because
48:39
the Wish album was supposed to be a double album and the label said no
48:44
to it. Robert wanted one album all upbeat, one album all downbeat.
48:49
Gloomy never happened. So some of the songs that were left off are there.
48:52
They're not like leftovers that weren't good enough for the album. They are
48:55
good. They're really good. Yeah, check that out. Wild Wood Swings
49:00
disintegrating the Cure album by album. So it's out now through whim Are UK.
49:04
So whim Are UK. Would they be uh you'd be teaming up with
49:07
them for all of these upcoming Yeah, yeah we we may. You know,
49:12
we're we're talking a little bit about getting uh you know, the old
49:15
series of with Motor Books back back going too, So there might be there
49:20
might be I might be kind of doing the same sort of thing with both,
49:22
But like I say, the Motor Books thing was was more like okay,
49:27
go get go, get big names for this sort of thing, rather
49:29
than your your panel of your buddies sort of thing, which works well as
49:32
well, it's super hard. I mean, it's it's harder going out and
49:36
getting big names. Of course, my my biggest most famous story of that
49:39
is getting friggin Sir Paul McCartney in the Queen book. That was amazing.
49:44
Hello, yeah, you know I got him and we talked to Queen for
49:46
twenty six minutes, right, that was great. I've heard of Paul McCartney,
49:50
Yeah, yeah, musician, right, yeah, he's he's he's a
49:53
fairly well known guy. And let in we were talking the other day.
49:57
He might be the most famous person of our lifetimes. Yeah, uh,
50:02
you know, if you think about it, because he's he's been super famous
50:07
for our entire lifetime. Like literally, I was born in nineteen sixty three
50:10
and that's kind of when he became famous, right, crazy yeah, and
50:15
still working, you know, still making music, participating in the world,
50:21
doing interviews, doing TV shows. You know. That's the great thing about
50:23
Sir Paul is he's like just so much part of not not even just pop
50:30
culture fabric, just just our fabric of our humanity. Right, And how
50:34
many times have you, as the author written books on class rock card has
50:37
heard or you ask, you know, what, when did you want to
50:39
become a rock star. Well, I saw the Beatles. That's all right,
50:45
any anybody of a certain age, I can hear that answer. Coming.
50:50
The books out now available wherever books are sold. And then we got
50:53
to plug your website all the other projects you got going on, right,
50:55
Martin Popoff dot com and where else. We got the podcasts. Yeah,
51:00
History and five Songs with Martin Popoff. That's the audio podcast that's once a
51:05
week, drops every Tuesday. And then we've got the Contrarians show that has
51:08
inspired and gotten these panels going through these books on YouTube? Is it on
51:13
audio tube YouTube? Yeah? Yeah, cool? Mart This is great man.
51:17
I always love talking musically, do you know that? All right?
51:21
Well, thanks Eric, it's been a lot of fun. Thanks again.
51:30
That's it. It's in the books.