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The American Civil War: Part One: America Divided. · The Twin History Podcast

0:01
The Twin History Podcast brings together 2 Black Scotsman, 2
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twins, 1 historian and one storyteller to explore the
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moments that shaped our world. The show features Joe McCann,
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the eldest twin and resident storyteller, the one always
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asking why any of this shit actually matters, alongside
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Johnny McCann, 13 minutes younger, and the historian.
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Equipped with the dates, the fact and the receipt, Every week
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they invite listeners to pull up a chair as they unpack some of
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history's greatest tales, The ones you think you know, the
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ones you've never heard, and the ones that hit different when
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told by them. Enjoy.
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I end where I began. No war but an abolition war.
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No peace but an abolition peace. Liberty for all, change for
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none. The black man, a soldier in war,
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a labour in peace, a folder at the South as well is at the
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North America is permanent home and all Americans his fellow
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countrymen Frederick Douglass mission of the war 1864.
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OK, we are back at the twin history podcast.
1:57
Today we are going to start our look at the American Civil War.
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Johnny, what's your thoughts? Well, I mean, it's going to be a
2:05
deep dive in the American Civil War.
2:07
So I think it's going to be a six part serious and all all
2:11
honesty. But we're going to do it a
2:13
little differently. We're not going to do an A-Z
2:15
account. We're not going to do an
2:17
additive account. We're going to, we'll give you
2:20
the how the war came about in these first two episodes maybe.
2:26
But then we'll go on to like very specific, maybe some people
2:30
would say niche subjects of the war or topics of the war.
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But don't worry, we'll cover all the landmark battles and such.
2:39
So obviously Ken Burns did this landmark Civil War documentary
2:42
series in 1990 that came out. So he had 10 episodes, but he
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still missed out a lot of things and he was criticised for doing
2:53
so. So it's impossible to do
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absolutely everything. But I think that our own series
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on the American Civil War, I think it's going to be 6 to 8
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parts. So bear with us listeners and
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strap in for the ride ahead. I hope you guys will enjoy.
3:09
This. We're not Ken Burns, dude.
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You better. You better show respect whenever
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the Ken's brought up. Well, definitely we won't.
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We'll go into the landmark battles and such, but it's not
3:22
going to be a narrative account. Do you not remember what
3:24
happened last time you did a non narrative account of a war?
3:29
What happened? The listenership with nosedive?
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That the fucking nosedive. So you've said that the
3:36
analytics for the First World War episodes where it was down
3:41
from the JFK episodes, but that's just to be expected.
3:43
But we are a history podcast. We've got something very special
3:48
coming up this month, which we'll announce later.
3:51
We've also got one of the most enduring mysteries of American
3:54
crime coming up as well. So we've got episodes on that.
3:57
So there's a lot to look forward to hopefully on the Twin History
4:02
podcast. I don't know what this very
4:04
special thing we have lined up. It's news to me as well, so
4:07
maybe I'll find out at the end of this show.
4:11
I told you about it yesterday. I'm not.
4:13
I don't want to spoil it. It's nothing's confirmed yet,
4:16
but it's a very exciting development for the podcast and
4:20
hopefully the first of subsection on the Twin History
4:24
podcast. Yeah, it's been something we've
4:27
been working on in the background and we'll be excited
4:30
to share it. We can't share it I I assume at
4:32
some point is the wheels are in motion.
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Yeah, we'll share it later this month.
4:38
Just to say, listeners, Joe and I were meant to be recorded
4:41
yesterday, but he was away for a wedding way up north in
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Scotland. And it kind of remind me of my
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simple plan when they're going into the woods to try and find
4:52
the plane and there's a fake FBI agent and the weaker brother,
4:57
and the relationship is meant to turn up Jacob, but he doesn't
5:01
turn up because he's hungover. So when he eventually does turn
5:05
up, when he realised his older brother Hank, who's played by
5:08
Bill Paxton, is in danger, he turns up and he ends up getting
5:13
shot. I just imagined when Joe turned
5:15
up, I'd have to cheer him and be like, Oh no, Jacob.
5:21
And then you, your Lady Macbeth wife, would have to burn the
5:24
money and the fire. And that's Gary Cole.
5:26
That's another guy you could put some respect on, not some FBI
5:30
agent. Yeah, he's great.
5:31
And obviously Billy Bob Fernan plays Jacob, although some
5:34
people thought he was kind of a caricature.
5:37
Maybe not as much as the one in Sling Blade, but.
5:41
Just maybe not a very realistic character, but.
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He was, at times, he was too articulate, I believe.
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But anyway, we'll, we'll get on to this and we'll stop talking
5:51
about films. Yeah.
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Yes, friends. I was up north for a good
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friend, Rachel and Lucy's wedding.
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So congratulations to them and I was not gone down in the woods
6:03
by by Johnny, although I noticed he was stalking the area looking
6:07
for me. He.
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Doesn't turn up on over either like Jacob does.
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And a simple plan. Yeah, I well, I was here to
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record last night and Johnny said he had to go to his bed
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even though he sat and forced me to watch some Italian football.
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Yeah, we watched some Italian football, but my wife and I were
6:26
barely bedders because I wake up early usually to work out.
6:30
But yeah, I mean, we're on the Easter break at the moment in
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Edinburgh, so no school until the 21st of April, which is
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good. Yeah.
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So there's plenty of time to record.
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Yeah, even though we're going to squeeze it all into one day.
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So we need to take advantage of it.
6:47
Remind the audience what we're talking about and why you off
6:51
the Confederate flag and you love the Confederacy.
6:56
I don't love the Confederacy. The American Civil War is
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probably the most pivotal moment in American history, arguably so
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as something that we really are looking forward to cover them.
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Yeah. And we're.
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Looking forward to having Ken Burns on as a guest.
7:14
Well. That'd be wonderful.
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But Speaking of Ken Burns, not that we've used them as a
7:19
source, but am I OK to go over my sources that I've used for
7:23
these episodes? Do we have to?
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We do have to you need to pay homage to other historians.
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And The thing is, when you write historical papers like the one I
7:36
wrote last summer on the Austro, Hungarian, shall we say,
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experience or culpability for starting the First World War.
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Don't remind us our audience start through 4 episodes.
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Well, hopefully we start for 3 or 4 episodes, but I had over 50
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separate sources when I wrote that.
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So even though I wrote the paper, you still need to rely on
8:02
other research that's been done. And you should acknowledge your
8:05
sources. And you've got to acknowledge
8:07
them or you can potentially get sued as well, so.
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Or no one's going to sue us. Not yet, anyway.
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Yeah, plagiarism is rife in historical circles, so if you're
8:18
using someone's work, you need to acknowledge it.
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Don't plagiarise or take a loan. There's always someone somewhere
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with a big nose who knows what. The Smiths, Senator Gates.
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OK, so well I got. Resources.
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Yeah, this will be the most exciting part of the pod.
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Listeners. Johnny, go on.
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I'm going to use your bathroom. I should do this?
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John Keegan's The American. Civil war let me use him before
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in something. Yeah, the First World War.
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Oh God. OK, he.
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Was a military historian. He's dead now.
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He's dead now. He died in 2015.
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He was gone down as he left his house.
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I. Think he's just he was an old
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man he's. Just he's in causes.
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OK, may I continue? Yes, please.
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David Reynolds America Empire of Liberty, we did yours that
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before. I can't remember that.
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OK, Viola Glump, If I Could pronounce Michael CC Adams,
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Ronald S Coddington, Lieutenant Charles S Burden, Gary
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Gallagher, Catherine Meyer, Joseph T Glaffer, Thomas J Ward,
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Catherine Scott Stewart Davins, Stephen Collins, Stephen J
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Whitfield, Robert Goldshaw, Scott Valentine.
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Emma heard Deutsch, and that's the list.
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It's a very long list, isn't it? You're on my list.
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They've seen you, they've seen your face.
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God will protect me. Whip the old and write a book
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together, right? That's just you're using them
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as. Your sources, they wrote
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academic papers on the American Civil War.
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So different topics, different areas of research.
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But wasn't Robert Short the commander of the 54?
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He was the commander of the 54, but he left a written record in
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the form of letters about his experiences and the American
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Civil War and before the Civil War.
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So that's why we're using some of his letters.
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OK, so how are we going to do this, Johnny?
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Why don't we start with the origins of war just to establish
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what was going on? OK, we can start with that.
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So would you like a question? If you have any questions.
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I'm not sure I have some. Hopefully I know the answer.
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The Dred Scott decision, yes. And what was it?
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How did it deepen the national debate over slavery?
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So the Dred Scott decision, so Dred Scott was a slave and he
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took his case all the way to the Supreme Court.
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So he was a slave in Missouri and his owner took him into
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Illinois. So at that time Illinois is a
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three state. So he argued Dred Scott at state
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level, once his owner had died, that he under the Constitution
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of the United States should now be allowed to be 3 because he
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was moved into a three area. So you, you have to remember
11:19
that time, all the states are not established.
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So you've got three states, you've got three territories and
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you've got slave states. So the slave, the state he was
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took from Missouri is a slave state.
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But he argued under the US Constitution that once he enters
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Illinois, he is then by law he should be free and.
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What did the Supreme Court say? Well, the the decision at state
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level. What was Brett Kavanaugh's
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faults on it all? Brett Kavanaugh's faults on it.
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Well, Brett Kavanaugh, I don't know too much about it, but he's
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made some decisions that would be seen as being liberal, but
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obviously he's a very conservative judge.
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But obviously we all watched those hearings and be I watched
12:08
them, I was going to the TVI like beer.
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I still like beer. Yeah, I know, John.
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Drinking at that time. I know, John.
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I went through your bins last night.
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They were filled with 10s of beer, cans of beer, bottles of
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whiskey, rum, gin. Yeah, of course not.
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So what happened? Red Scott goes to the Supreme
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Court. And what year was this?
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So that's would have been 1857. So the case went on for years.
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So what was outcome? So I think in 1850, the state
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court ruled that he was indeed 3 under the Constitution.
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But then that was reversed by Missouri Supreme Court in 1852.
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So it took years and years to get to the Supreme Court.
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So I got to the Supreme Court and the decision came down that,
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no, he was indeed under the Constitution.
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He was a slave. And the Chief Justice of the
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Supreme Court at the time, Robert Taney, who was extremely
13:08
conservative, he essentially said that slaves or blacks were
13:13
not U.S. citizens under the Constitution and that they were
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legal property, so they did not have the same amenable rights as
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white Americans. So he returned or he felt that
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Dred Scott should return to a state of slavery.
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And he also said that blacks should not the maxim with whites
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or associated with whites, even fornicatin.
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Fornicatin. He said they were inferior
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socially, politically and intellectually.
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Well, that when the Frederick Douglass, who I'm sure will
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mention at some point came to Scotland when he was in
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Edinburgh, he faced the same prejudice.
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The the United States government declared that he was a non
14:01
citizen and he had to travel to Newcastle, I believe to a United
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States consulate or embassy to plead this case to to stay in
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the UK because he was deemed a non citizen.
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So yeah. So Dred Scott what?
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Can I just say David Reynolds argues in his magnificent
14:22
American Empire of Liberty? I mentioned that during the Jack
14:25
Johnson solo episode I did. I did listen to that episode so.
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Well, my wife says sometimes she prefers the solo episodes
14:33
because I think her exact phase was that cunt Joe wasn't always
14:37
interrupting me. I'm not into, I sit here and let
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you talk freely more than any other podcast host or Co host
14:46
would do. She doesn't say that.
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Yeah, I know she did. She doesn't say that.
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I know my wife's lovely. She would never say anything
14:52
like that. But he argued that there's
14:55
actually nothing in the Constitution about citizenship.
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But Robert Tanney had recontextualised the American
15:01
Constitution to make that decision to suit his own ends.
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And apparently legal scholars and legal historians have said
15:10
it's the worst decision in US Supreme Court history and it's
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has no basis in law. What about the woman's versus
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Virginia? So the woman's versus Virginia,
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remember, they won that case. That's a joke dude.
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Christ. Oh my God, are.
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You the guy from The Simpsons? I call in, sprayed the house.
15:34
That's a joke. That's a joke.
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Christ's sake. I'm sorry, Listers.
15:39
I apologise. I know some of you would have
15:42
got that, but yeah, Ted Scott do.
15:45
Is there anything we should say about him?
15:47
Or is he just a faceless African who refused to?
15:51
He once that his owner died, the owner's widow the remarried.
15:58
They married like Dred Scott in the.
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Widow. Yeah, Dred Scott was.
16:02
No, Dred Scott was married to a black woman.
16:04
He was. He had children.
16:06
So yeah, I should maybe clarify that.
16:08
Under the ruling, the Supreme Court basically said they were
16:13
all slaves. So the wife and the two children
16:16
were essentially slaves under the Supreme Court ruling.
16:19
Yeah, I maybe should have mentioned that.
16:20
Was Dred Scott not in Illinois at this point then?
16:25
When his owner died, he offered to buy his freedom to pay for
16:29
his freedom. How could he afford that?
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He was economically viable, I mean.
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That doesn't make sense. He was a slave, so how did he
16:35
have the means to he? Has the means.
16:39
So I don't know how he accumulated that money.
16:41
It's possible that abolitionist groups helped him to pay for his
16:45
legal case and to try and buy his freedom from his owner.
16:50
Perhaps he was a proto slave like Lincoln who I mentioned in
16:53
a Thomas Fisselwood episode. For instance, going back to
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Frederick Douglass, he was a Coker and he was allowed to go
17:00
and do that and I believe he was allowed to keep some of that
17:03
money. Not all of it, but Frederick
17:07
Douglass also had the price on his head from the olds and he
17:12
could buy his freedom, but he did.
17:15
He couldn't afford to do it. So when he came to the UKA group
17:19
of British abolitionists got together and paid for Frederick
17:23
Douglass freedom. So you have to remember when he
17:25
came to the UK in 1846, he was still fugitive.
17:29
He'd escaped and he'd became famous because of his writings
17:34
and his speeches. Well, that's great.
17:37
I mean we have a whole section on.
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Frederick, I know we have a whole section 100, but do you
17:42
know how much his freedom was? No, OK, 150% Tell me 150.
17:49
OK, let's go back to Dred Scott. Is there anything more on the
17:53
man we need to know, or are we just going to discuss the
17:56
decision of the Supreme Court a little more on the impact it had
17:59
on the causes of? The Civil War, yeah, essentially
18:02
I just showed the schism in the country.
18:04
So people are saying, OK, America, at this point, we
18:08
should be moving towards a country where most people are
18:13
free under the Constitution. So particularly in the North,
18:18
the Dred Scott decision was met with disbelief and fury.
18:24
And as I said, TANI basically circumvented law, the US
18:29
Constitution, and. Law to come to that decision.
18:32
So weren't there ordered judges sitting on the court?
18:35
So was it a unanimous decision on the Supreme Court?
18:39
Yeah, there were 9 judges. It was 7 to 2 in the favour of
18:44
John F Salmon preferred to have brought the case against Scott.
18:49
So why the Kavanaugh S judge, I forget his name, you mentioned
18:53
them Why? Why does he get all the shit
18:56
then? If there was, if it was 7 to 2.
18:59
Because remember as him has has made all the disgraceful
19:05
comments and I think in the Supreme Court cases as Chief
19:08
Justice that delivers the the verdict.
19:12
But it's fair to say the order 7 on that court believed the same
19:16
as Tani did. Oh yeah, of course.
19:19
Or the order 6 and there was 2 dissenting voices who were
19:24
coerced into changing their votes.
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But So what I don't understand is why is the Dred Scott
19:32
decision so significant because he had just some faceless slave?
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So he's not faceless. I mean, we know his.
19:41
Name Yes we know his name but as in if I'm in the Norfolk I'm in
19:47
the South. Why does this matter to me?
19:49
If this Tres Scott decision the fact he lost the case too isn't
19:55
why isn't he just lost to history?
19:57
Why isn't that decision lost to history and the Americans just
20:01
go about their lives? Because as I said, I mean, if
20:04
America this time we've got 15, three, sorry, 15 slave States
20:14
and 14, three states. So a first man is in a Free
20:19
State. By law, he should then be free.
20:23
And we'll get into it later when we go into black regiments.
20:29
I mean, not in this episode, but in a later episode.
20:32
And the whole idea was if a slave escaped or they'd be
20:37
called contraband, if they escaped or they were freed by
20:42
the Union once they reached 3 states, they would then be seen
20:50
as being free legally under the Constitution.
20:54
So it's a similar type of situation.
20:57
Or say I'm not a lawyer, but it's a similar type of
20:59
situation. So this man was took to
21:02
Illinois. He's seen as being free by that
21:05
point, and under the law he should be free by that point.
21:10
So the decision. Once he sets fit in a Free
21:13
State. He should be free.
21:15
Yeah, yeah. So when Douglas goes to New
21:18
Bedford in a freed state, but he's not a free man because he's
21:22
still a fugitive at that point, Yes.
21:25
So why is Dred Scott stepping foot in an order state that be
21:29
that a Free State? Why is he entitled to his
21:34
freedom once he sets fruit in that state?
21:36
Because the whole idea is you've got these slave states, you've
21:42
got these three states, you've got these three territories, and
21:46
we'll get into this, I'm sure. So once he's in a Free State, he
21:49
should, under the Constitution, he should be free.
21:53
So the decision. Does that make sense?
21:56
Well, it doesn't really make sense because I I'm looking at
22:00
through the lens of Frederick Douglass.
22:03
As I've said, he's what? You're going to say through the
22:05
lens of a slave owner. Yeah.
22:08
So you think he should have remained the property?
22:11
I'm not saying he should have remained the property, I'm just
22:13
making the argument that because he set foot in a Free State,
22:18
does that by law make him a free man.
22:21
It does make him a free man at that stage, and that's the whole
22:24
idea. Why is Douglas not a free man?
22:26
Then when he goes to New Bedford, he escapes to
22:29
Baltimore. He goes to New Bedford and he's
22:32
not a free man. He has to leave the US after the
22:35
publication of his book because there's a bounty hunters out
22:39
looking for him to take him back S to hang him.
22:42
OK, maybe that's because of the fugitive slave act.
22:45
I mean, there was a fugitive slave act.
22:47
So when did Douglas escape? He escaped when he was like 17,
22:53
so around 18, thirtyish I believe.
22:56
I don't have the exact dates. So the law wouldn't have been in
22:59
place at that time, the contraband law.
23:01
So that's why Douglas would have been a fugitive at large.
23:05
OK, that makes sense then. Thank you for explaining it.
23:08
Well, I'm trying to explain it as best I can.
23:11
I'm not a lawyer. I'm not a constitutional lawyer.
23:13
You know who was? Who?
23:15
Obama. But, well, he's not here, is he?
23:19
He's not on the pod, OK. Yeah, so he would help us out.
23:23
OK, he would help. I asked the bombers to come on
23:25
the the pod, but obviously that was met by silence.
23:28
We need to have an order 100,000 listeners before that would ever
23:33
happen. But I'd say we don't live in
23:35
this courtroom, do we? We don't.
23:38
So a sense of, well, you brought them up so we can talk about
23:42
them a little bit. No, because you've went far too
23:45
much into Frederick Douglass concerning.
23:47
We've got a whole section on them coming.
23:48
Up. That's it.
23:49
I won't mention, I won't mention Frederick Douglass again.
23:52
I would just. But Speaking of slaves and the
23:56
Dred Scott decision, does it not remind you of a similar case
24:00
from Scotland? What case?
24:02
Joseph Knight. You're a historian.
24:06
You must know who Joseph Knight is.
24:08
I don't know this man, I wouldn't even know what he
24:10
looked like if it hadn't been for the pictures I've been
24:13
shown. Well.
24:14
Scottish has three. I'm about sketching 1.
24:18
You're Scott. You're going to be an expert.
24:23
I am. I am.
24:24
I'm just trying to find out what type of mentor you were, but
24:28
Joseph Knight was a he was an enslaved African.
24:31
He was brought to Scotland from Jamaica by a man called John
24:35
Weatherburn. You'll know John Weatherburn.
24:37
He's he's a famous Scott. There's a lot of writings about
24:40
him. Guys, if you wonder why our
24:42
episodes always run to oh, this is.
24:44
An hour and a half per episode. This might be the reason why.
24:48
No, that's irrelevant because if you're talking about the Dred
24:50
Scott decision, I've never heard of it.
24:52
Go ahead. Well Knight.
24:53
So the case was in 1778. Joseph Knight was a a slave
24:58
brought from Jamaica to live Weatherburn I think his house
25:02
was in Perthshire I believe as a state.
25:05
And Joseph Knight was well, essentially, well, Joseph Knight
25:09
was his slave. And Joseph Knight escaped.
25:13
And then he went to court and his argument was that slavery
25:20
was outlawed, was illegal and Scots law, and he won his case,
25:25
so he freed himself. So if him and Dred Scott ever
25:30
had the face off, then Joseph Knight won the battle.
25:34
But yeah, so that's an incredible story, an
25:36
extraordinary story of a slave who freed himself.
25:40
And we could maybe Joseph and I could maybe reverse roles for
25:43
that because I have no idea what that is.
25:45
So we can switch our seats. OK, well, let's get back to it
25:50
then. We.
25:51
Let's go back to the Civil War. Yeah, So what's Dred Scott?
25:55
He loses his case and yeah, go on.
26:00
So in 1850, there was a compromise.
26:05
What was its political significance?
26:07
And what? Just tell our listeners what it
26:09
was first I I thought. But yeah, if it was so pleases
26:13
you ever so pleased. So the 1850 compromise, at this
26:19
stage, the fabric of the nation is at stake.
26:24
So California petitions to join the union.
26:28
This would have been December 1850.
26:32
So it seeks to join the union, but there's an issue because of
26:36
its proximity to Mexico. OK.
26:39
And what is that issue? So the issue at that time was
26:43
Mexico had just been routed in the American Mexican War of 1846
26:50
to 1847. Are we going to do an episode on
26:52
that too? We could do an episode on it,
26:55
but it's important here because the Mexicans had lost a lot of
27:00
territory after that war. They lost Texas, right?
27:04
They lost Texas. They lost huge slaves of land,
27:08
parts of California, parts of New Mexico, obviously parts of
27:12
Utah. Utah.
27:14
Yeah, Utah. Arizona.
27:16
What the hell were they doing in Utah?
27:18
What were they doing in Utah? They just formed part of the
27:23
Mexican and that's where, shall we say, but the Mexicans had
27:27
been bested and the Mexican American War by a time they they
27:33
got defeated by a tiny U.S. Army.
27:37
You have to remember by the time we get to the outbreak of the
27:41
American Civil War, the US Army has 16,000 members.
27:46
I mean, it's not a big army, is it?
27:48
I don't know what it was in 18461847, but it's not a huge
27:52
army. But anyway, one of the issues is
27:56
after the Mexican War, Mexican American War, a lot of states
28:02
petitioned to join the Union. So one of them was California
28:07
and that seeks to enter the Union as a three state.
28:11
OK, so California and New Mexico, they're looking to join
28:17
the Union as a three state. But Senator Clay of Kentucky
28:23
argued that popular sovereignty should carry the day.
28:27
All right, well, I'll ask you what popular sovereignty is in a
28:30
minute, but should I tell you a story about Mexico It.
28:33
Better not be another Frederick Douglass story.
28:36
Go. Ahead.
28:37
Well, I'm not sure. Well, maybe Frederick Douglass
28:39
did travel to Mexico. But not.
28:41
I've been to Mexico. I've been to California.
28:43
I love California. I love Mexico.
28:46
Yeah, But when I was in Mexico, remember, you're crossing the
28:49
border. And we were trying to get find a
28:52
way to the border. And this man came out of a
28:55
building. He just appeared.
28:57
And he was like, I'll take you to the border.
28:59
And he jumped on the bonnet of our car.
29:02
And he sat there as we drove, and he was directing us down all
29:05
these safe streets. And I remember everyone in the
29:08
car was sit in their pants. He thought he might be cartel.
29:11
And he's leading us into an ambush.
29:12
Yeah, but he wasn't. He was a nice, friendly
29:15
gentleman. So the moral for us, because of
29:18
it had been an ambush. Joel.
29:20
Beside, the moral of the story is not everyone in Mexico is a
29:25
cartel member. My wife's.
29:27
Been to Mexico? A friend of mine was in a bar in
29:31
Mexico, and a cartel boss, a local cartel boss, came in with
29:36
some Carios. And they said for the next three
29:39
hours, everyone in this bar will drink for free.
29:42
But everyone's phone is going into this bag because we don't
29:46
want any pictures. And if you want to leave, you're
29:48
free to leave. But if you want to stay, your
29:51
phone is going into this clear plastic bag and you'll get it
29:54
back when the boss leaves. And that's interesting.
29:57
Yeah. The boss.
29:58
Yeah, Well, he had his drinks and he left and there was no
30:02
trouble that night. But I think I would have left
30:04
immediately because what, I'm just.
30:06
Someone decided this was a time to do a hit on the boss and you
30:09
would just happen to be in the. Club.
30:11
So yeah, that's interesting. My wife's been to Mexico, she
30:14
said. It was actually terrifying.
30:15
She went to Mexico City and she went to a strip joint and put a
30:20
$20 barrel in the G string of a beautiful Mexican stripper.
30:26
And a cartel boss came out from the back or what she.
30:29
Just said it was Mexico City was terrifying.
30:32
She just found it terrifying. So I didn't feel unsafe in
30:35
Mexico. It was a beautiful place and the
30:37
people were beautiful. Actually, the tequila there was
30:41
incredible. I'm not really a tequila fan,
30:43
but yeah, Mexico was a beautiful place.
30:47
But it is a beautiful place. But yeah, popular sovereignty.
30:50
Go on, I say. You're chomping at the bit to
30:53
deal with the conversation. So popular sovereignty.
30:57
So essentially as I said, California would enter the Union
31:00
as a three state, OK, but New Mexico and Utah would be given
31:06
the option to confront the slavery question through popular
31:10
sovereignty. So it's a states right issue and
31:13
that's what Clay was arguing. States should have the option to
31:17
enter the Union 3 or slave so. Popular sovereignty?
31:23
Wait, I don't understand that. Wouldn't it be the states right
31:27
in any case? Aren't they going to make a
31:29
decision if they want to indulge as their own words?
31:32
But they want to enforce slavery or they don't.
31:37
Wouldn't they have that decision anyway?
31:38
Who was making that decision for them?
31:40
Well, it's the legislators would be deciding that, wouldn't they?
31:44
So. OK, go on, go on.
31:46
Well that the argument is at this time is the union are
31:50
saying if you join the new America, I mean it's not new at
31:56
that point, but if you join America, it's.
31:59
Relatively new, isn't it 1770? 6 Less than 100.
32:02
Years. Yeah, Yeah.
32:02
So. If you're joining the New
32:04
America, you really should be joining as a Free State, but
32:09
that this is one of the causes of the Civil War because states
32:14
were arguing that they should have the right of popular
32:18
sovereignty. It should be their decision
32:20
whether they join free or slave. What did these states do?
32:25
Obviously California is a Free State, as you said the other
32:28
states did. We know what they their decision
32:30
was. What did these states do?
32:32
What was their decision? California is a Free State, the
32:34
order states. Utah and New Mexico, New Mexico,
32:38
Arizona. So they entered the Union as
32:40
three states, but they were still given the option of at a
32:46
later date by popular sovereignty of changing to
32:49
slavery or it was still slavery was not illegal in their
32:54
territories. OK, well let's jump onto the
32:58
Kansas Nebraska Act. So how did the Kansas Nebraska
33:02
Act play a role in inflaming sectional tensions?
33:05
So the Kansas, Nebraska Act. So this was an 1854 Democrat,
33:11
Senator Stephen Douglas of Illinois.
33:14
He proposed a continental railway in the United States.
33:18
So they couldn't quite decide where this railway should
33:22
originate and where it should terminate.
33:24
You know, if a train comes from Glasgow and we are now entering
33:30
Edinburgh, Waverley and this will be where this train
33:33
terminates. So they couldn't quite decide.
33:36
Well, probably not in an American accent.
33:38
They couldn't quite decide where the IT should originate and
33:41
terminate. So Stephen Douglas.
33:44
He proposed Kansas to Nebraska. Who's Stephen Douglas?
33:49
So he's a senator from Illinois. So he had assessed the clay with
33:54
the drawn up of the Compromise of 1850.
33:56
So in 1854 he suggests the Continental Railway should run
34:02
from Kansas to Nebraska. So it's the Kansas to Nebraska.
34:06
May 1854. So the reason why this is a
34:10
major issue is because the line is going to go through three
34:16
States and the slave states. So you've got the whole idea of
34:21
goods and peoples being moved between both states or through
34:26
both free and slave states so that this would be an issue.
34:30
So he argued that although he wasn't pro slavery, he really
34:36
wanted this line to be built. So he argued again about popular
34:41
sovereignty. So if this line is going through
34:46
territories, they should have the decision whether they
34:50
incorporate slavery or not. So he was willing to compromise
34:54
his principles just to get this train line up and running.
34:57
Yeah, I'm sure there would have been money maybe at stake, a lot
35:04
of money at stake for him personally.
35:06
So he was a proponent of state rights as well.
35:09
Anything more to say on the Kansas Nebraska Act?
35:12
Yeah, it caused a constitutional crisis, essentially.
35:17
So the reason why most northern northerners were furious about
35:23
this, because he believed that sovereign states would support
35:27
it, because he was saying, OK, I'm willing to allow popular
35:33
sovereignty in these states that the limelight pass through.
35:39
But the northerners were furious because of the Missouri
35:42
Compromise of 1820. So Missouri had joined the Union
35:46
in 1820 as a slave state, but men also joined at the same time
35:52
as a Free State. So this is where it gets very
35:55
complicated. They stated that slavery should
35:58
be prohibited north of the 3630 parallel.
36:03
What is that? So it's just the line on the
36:06
map. OK, so beyond this point the
36:09
parallel slavery should not be happening.
36:13
So why? Because of the compromise of
36:16
18/20. So they're arguing if this line
36:20
goes ahead, then that compromise is basically you may as well
36:25
wrap it up because you're going to allow slavery under Douglas's
36:30
proposal. You're going to allow slavery to
36:33
maybe take place north of the. I don't know.
36:37
OK. And so what's what happens?
36:41
What's the fallout? Well, the fallout was
36:44
incredible. Such was the opposition to this
36:47
bell, the Kansas Nebraska Act, a new political dynasty was
36:53
formed. What?
36:54
What dynasty was that? The Republican Party?
36:57
Ah. OK, when so?
36:59
So the Republican Party, many of them were whags.
37:03
For example, we had the whag party rhythm.
37:06
So many of them were whags. You're going to have to tell our
37:09
listeners what the WHAG party is.
37:11
It was for me as a forerunner of the Conservatives.
37:15
A lot of whites joined the Conservatives and the White
37:18
Party no longer exists in Britain.
37:21
I don't think it did when we came into the 20th century.
37:24
I'm not sure about that. But they were definitely, they
37:27
were swept away by the conservative movement, by the
37:31
conservative movement. Yeah.
37:34
All right. So the Republican Party is
37:36
established. OK, so 2 famous Wags joined the
37:41
Republicans at that time. Can I have a guess of who these
37:45
wags were? Yeah.
37:47
One of them was surely Honest Abe.
37:51
Yeah. Abraham Lincoln.
37:53
Yeah. And the other one was secretary
37:56
of war during the Civil War. Secretary of State, Secretary of
38:00
State. I forget his name, though.
38:01
It's it's Stuart. Who Stuart?
38:05
All right, OK, great. I thought you were going to say
38:08
John Adams. John Adams was long.
38:11
When we're in New York, there's, I don't know if you can get it
38:14
here, but there's John Adams beer.
38:17
But it's absolutely awful. It is awful.
38:20
My wife got one when we were in New York, but I tried to sip of
38:24
it. We talked.
38:25
About that, though, Marfa's won York Day.
38:27
They had their own. They brewed their own beer
38:30
there. They were like 11 percent, 12%
38:32
beers in. Yeah, I mean, it was a strong
38:34
beer. I was kind of like not to bring
38:36
up bell packs. And again when they when they go
38:38
on to the bar and near dark and he drinks and he eats.
38:42
But I was like. How can how can you drink this
38:44
pressure so? Yeah.
38:47
So the Republicans are viewed in the South as a danger because
38:53
their whole mantra at that time as we're going to abolish
38:58
slavery, we're going to unite the country, and slavery under a
39:04
Republican government will be banished, will be washed away.
39:09
So the Republicans were once the good guys.
39:12
They were once the good guys. I mean, I don't know what
39:15
happened to them, but yeah, they were formed to and that was
39:20
their main, what is it? Political aim, Political aim to
39:24
abolish slavery. Yeah.
39:26
OK. Is there anything more to to say
39:29
on this section of the pod? Should we move on to the next
39:33
section? I think we've.
39:35
Covered most of that I mean. Let's not have.
39:38
Any more questions? Will we not be remiss to speak
39:42
about Nebraska and not mention the most important musical
39:47
achievement to ever come out of Nebraska?
39:50
What read music speaks Spanish by this recidos?
39:54
I thought you were going to say Springsteen's Nebraska.
39:58
Again, that's a joke, for Christ's sake.
40:01
Anyway, the Yeah, but that's a great album, guys.
40:05
Give it a listen. Despacito's, if you like Bright
40:08
Eyes. The lead singer of Bright Eyes
40:11
is in that is in that he's a lead singer of Despacito's and
40:16
they have an album called Read Music Speaks Spanish, which is
40:19
basically about Omaha and Nebraska.
40:23
Let's go. I've recorded a solo episode on
40:26
Bruce Renstein on one of his albums and I think I mentioned
40:30
the Brasca, but we'll see if that comes out.
40:32
Which album is it? The the episodes on Yeah.
40:36
Oh, that doesn't matter. What do you mean just tell it
40:39
will? Be a surprise.
40:41
You know, like the remake of The Italian Job where Edward Norton
40:45
says to Mark Wahlberg, You never surprised me anymore.
40:49
And Mark Bahlberg jumps up and punches him in the face and
40:51
he's, you're surprised. I won't be watching that movie.
40:55
Speaking of movies, Deliver Me from Nowhere by Springsteen, I
40:58
was that Springsteen movie. I was very disappointed, but I
41:01
thought it was OK. I don't think it was terrible.
41:03
I just don't think it was a great movie and plus.
41:08
Go on. No, I thought it was excellent
41:09
and I mentioned that in the episode.
41:10
I did. I actually mention it.
41:12
But if you're going to make a music biopic about Springsteen,
41:18
you don't concentrate on Nebraska, as no one knows what
41:22
the hell is. No, I, I think it's better to do
41:25
like a contained period of the musician's career instead of
41:30
doing the whole cradle to grave thing.
41:31
I just like, you've got the Michael Jackson 1 coming out and
41:34
it's going to go cradle to like the bad tour because they really
41:39
can't get into the stuff in the 90s, can they?
41:41
Without demonising alleged childhood sexual abuse victims
41:45
or without completely whitewashing his behaviour with
41:49
children so. Well, we're not going to speak
41:52
about that on the podcast. Christ, the Michael Jackson
41:54
estate could sue us so. No, they can't sue us, but that
41:58
that's what I actually did, Along said on X when Elvis came
42:03
out, the Elvis movie, because I really liked it, but I mentioned
42:07
it left out the darker elements of his life or his career.
42:11
And you just have to as a filmmaker, because if you don't,
42:15
you're not going to get permission from the estate or
42:17
the family to use the music. And that's the problem with the
42:21
Jackson biopic and the Queen biopic.
42:25
And the only, I mean, if you look a couple of years ago,
42:29
Priscilla came out and made that have one piece of Elvis music
42:33
because there's no way that Elvis Presley estate would
42:36
permit his music to be used in a film where his behaviour is
42:39
being scrutinised and criticised.
42:41
Anyway, let's go on. Yeah, of course.
42:44
I mean, that was an issue with that film that they couldn't use
42:48
any of Elvis's music. I don't like the Elvis movie as
42:51
well so. No, I really liked the Elvis.
42:53
I thought it was great. And Tom Hanks is great.
42:55
He's so funny and I really enjoyed it.
42:57
I think you're the only one who enjoyed Tom Hanks's performance
43:00
and that I mean, what accent was he going for?
43:03
And. No, that that accent was
43:05
probably worse than our American accents, but I loved during if I
43:09
can dream the Christmas 1968 special.
43:12
And he's like, don't worry, we'll still get Santa Claus is
43:15
coming to town. We'll still get it.
43:18
Yeah, but that obviously none of that ever happened.
43:20
I know because the show is Robert Kennedy being killed
43:23
during the recording of the show.
43:26
It's like, guys, it was killed in the summer.
43:28
Yeah. You're recording the Christmas
43:29
special in July. Yeah, OK.
43:32
Someone said it was like Christmas in July.
43:36
What is that? Somewhere, some.
43:37
Go ahead, go ahead. OK, one person we never
43:41
mentioned who was an important figure in Missouri history.
43:45
Johnny. Was that John Brown?
43:49
No well your money pay a Missouri.
43:52
Oh Jesus Christ. Well, we don't, don't we?
43:57
OK, let's that's funny because my wife saw me watching
44:01
Unforgiven the other day and the line when Gene Hackman's on the
44:05
floor. I don't deserve this, to die
44:07
like this. I was building the house.
44:10
My wife was smiling because I used that line a lot when if
44:13
she's trying to make me do something I don't want to do.
44:16
Well, that's a great film. You mentioned John Brown.
44:19
Let's speak about John Brown a little and what was his
44:24
importance in the abolitionist movement.
44:28
John Brown was vehemently anti racist.
44:32
As we say in education, it's one thing not to be racist, it's
44:37
another thing to be anti racist and actually doing things to
44:43
change the system and also taking.
44:47
Risking your own security, your own comfort.
44:52
So John Brown was very much What did they call the great Lord
44:56
Bert? Yeah.
44:58
Because there was ATV show about him recently.
45:00
Wasn't there with Ethan Hawke. There was so October 1859 John
45:07
Brown leads a disastrous raid at Harpers Ferry in Virginia.
45:12
Yeah, OK. What happened?
45:15
So Harpers Ferry was an armoury. So there was a lot of weapons at
45:19
Harpers Ferry. So there was a slave uprising,
45:24
which I mean his critics argue he incited.
45:30
So around about 11 slaves I think it was.
45:34
And John Brown and some other men tried to raid Harpers Ferry
45:39
to get these weapons, and Incitement was repelled in 36.
45:45
Hours and didn't this read? I mean, I know a little bit
45:49
about John Brown as I'm a writer, a playwright.
45:53
I wrote a play about Mr. Brown which is sitting on my computer.
45:58
I mean, it would never see the light of day in Scotland.
46:00
It just got no relevance. Scottish theatre, it would be of
46:05
no use to them. It's called Year of Meteors
46:07
because there was a poem written about John Brown and I believe
46:11
that was a tight or it had that line in it.
46:13
So but with John Brown, the raid on Harpers very ultimately
46:16
failed because he believed he there would be an uprising of
46:21
slaves and most of those slaves did not join the uprising.
46:25
Isn't that correct? Yes, it was.
46:27
I mean, there were a lot of slave uprisings during the Civil
46:31
War, and we'll get into that as we go on with our episodes.
46:35
I mean we're hoping these would be 6 out of courses at this
46:38
stage. It's going to be about fucking
46:40
20. Yeah, and dropped his pen.
46:44
I know what happened to John Brown, Johnny, But for our
46:47
listeners, what was the outcome of this disastrous raid, as you
46:51
called it? I would say it was very
46:53
successful. OK, so most of John Brown's men
46:57
were captured or killed, and he was put on trial.
47:01
And during his trial he said, and he was absolutely right.
47:05
He cut out the heart of what would become of the country and
47:10
what was to happen in the next couple of years.
47:14
He said at his trial that I'm sure that the crimes of this
47:18
guilty land will never be purged away but with blood.
47:22
So he became a martyr in the north, but absolutely revealed
47:26
in the South. There was a what?
47:30
Now you go. So there was a northern senator
47:33
who was seen as a moderate, who had called John Brown a
47:36
murderer, a thief, a traitor, and hell entered his heart when
47:41
he entered or when he set foot on Harpers Ferry.
47:44
So very major response, reply or response to John Brown's raid,
47:49
wasn't it? Yeah, fair enough.
47:51
Was it a senator from Massachusetts?
47:53
Oh, for can I just read something from the South
47:57
Carolina Mercury from 1959, which was a paper in Charleston
48:02
about the right, OK, the right of role.
48:06
Nothing but wild fanaticism, a mountain almost to insanity,
48:11
could account for those 20 men combining together in such a
48:15
foolhardy enterprise. But this is the species of
48:19
reckless folly that requires summary justice as a warning to
48:23
others. OK, what?
48:25
What do you think that meant? What I think it meant?
48:28
Yes, well, what is the IT is the species of reckless folly that
48:34
requires somebody justice as a war to other the South Carolina
48:38
mercury 1859. What do you think that meant?
48:41
Well, the it's obviously. Well, I don't know.
48:44
I. Well, obviously man, that if
48:48
anyone should try that again, they.
48:51
Should be home. They should, yeah, meet with the
48:53
same fate as John Brown and those slaves.
48:55
But what fate did John Brown meet?
48:57
Because we've not even got to that.
48:59
Well, I told you it was time. Did you?
49:01
Yeah, It was hands. What were his last words?
49:04
I don't know. Apparently, he kissed the baby
49:06
on the way to the gallows. But no, that was made-up.
49:09
Yeah, that was made-up. He kept a baby.
49:11
Why was a baby there at the Gallow?
49:13
All right, John Brown leads this raid.
49:17
He's executed after the raid fails.
49:21
OK. And what's going on at the South
49:23
at this time? What are these guys up to all
49:25
this time? So in the South we have in
49:29
Kansas there's a lot of warring factions, both pro slavery, anti
49:35
slavery abolitionists. In Kansas in 1861, there were a
49:39
lot of deaths. There were a lot of people who
49:42
died. Apparently 5 pro slavery
49:45
advocates were chopped to pieces.
49:48
Their ears were cut off. They were gutted while they were
49:52
still. Alive so.
49:55
OK, but with the South speak a little bit the sovereign cotton
49:59
Kingdom and how dependent was on enslaved labour.
50:04
The pre war sovereign economy is fascinating and it's one of the
50:07
arguments that Confederate sympathisers make about the
50:12
Civil War that it was not over slavery.
50:16
That was not the reason why they seceded from the Union and then
50:21
were willing to go to war. So the US in the decades
50:26
preceding the Civil war and sudden a state of industrial
50:30
revolution. OK, So on the South, we've got
50:36
in the South and across the country, we've got iron ore,
50:40
we've got coal, we've got water power, we've got wood.
50:43
It's a wood fueled economy. OK, so I am Europe,
50:47
deforestation that happened many decades or centuries before, but
50:53
in North America, I mean, even though there's abundant
50:56
resources, there's so many natural resources that the
51:03
country can like lean on or so at that time, it's even more so
51:08
it's more abundant. Yeah, so there's an abundance
51:11
of, of riches to exploit. Yeah, of riches to exploit and a
51:15
Redman to rape and pillage. Yes.
51:20
So between 1800 and 1850. The 800,000 slaves around the
51:27
border states are moved to the interior of the country, so the
51:31
South of this time it does rely on the industrial north.
51:36
So the South of that time is still very much an agrarian
51:39
society. So they are the North is similar
51:43
as well. There's a lot of farmland, but
51:45
the North is industrialising on a massive scale, unlike the
51:49
South. OK, let's.
51:52
Do rely on the North. Relying on the North to a
51:54
certain extent. So at this time we have around
52:01
about 50,000 planters out of 5 million white southerners.
52:07
So the argument was that only 48 to 50,000 of these 5 million
52:12
Southerners owned more than 20 slaves.
52:15
OK, I think we spoke about this before.
52:18
Was that you and I? I'm not sure.
52:21
But how did the? Well, go on and I can ask you.
52:24
Later, so around about 3000 owned over 100 slaves and that
52:31
this is by the 1850s there was around about 4 million slaves in
52:36
total. So the argument that comes from
52:39
the South is that many of them were slave owners and they
52:44
weren't relying on these slaves for their livelihood.
52:48
So. I would.
52:51
Counter that, may I finish? Yeah, you can.
52:55
So the argument is that less than 50% of these slave owners
52:59
had over 20 slaves and the majority didn't own slaves.
53:05
But according to Keegan, who I almost thought he was evoking
53:11
the lost. Cause he we'll get into the lost
53:13
cause, right? We'll get into the Lost Cause,
53:15
but I would argue that slavery undoubtedly was systematic at
53:22
every level of the antebellum S. They're willing to go to war
53:27
over maintaining their slaves, over maintaining their economy.
53:33
So you have to remember that at this time, slavery is outlawed
53:36
the most parts of the world. So ostensibly, American slaves
53:44
or African slaves who are working in the South, they
53:47
should not be at this period being brought from Africa, OK?
53:52
So they should be second, third generation Africans born in
53:56
America. So they're Americans, OK.
54:00
But there's some evidence that shows that some sovereign states
54:04
or territories ignored this, and they were still bringing in
54:07
African slaves as late as the 1850s, which was, in fact, it
54:13
was a federal crime at that time.
54:16
So you can argue if they're doing that, then yeah, maybe
54:21
slavery is a huge part of the Southern economy.
54:25
Well, it's not a huge part of it.
54:28
It is the whole economy, isn't it?
54:30
Yeah, it is a whole economy. And at that time, Southerners
54:34
were per capita were more prosperous than the northerners
54:39
who there's a lot of farmland in the North as well, but they say
54:43
that Southerners were twice as rich as the average northern
54:47
person. So in the South, the main crops
54:52
are you mentioned that cotton. So that would have been Georgia
54:57
and the Carolinas. There would have been wet soil,
55:00
parts of Texas, OK, where cotton could grow and Virginia, you
55:06
know what their mean. Oh, tobacco, tobacco,
55:09
Mississippi, sugar, other parts of Georgia and Carolina, the low
55:14
countries, which we'll get to because there was a remarkable
55:18
slave insurgency in the low country in the final months of
55:23
the are we going to get up on to in this episode of episode 30,
55:27
Episode 30? So that their main crop was rice
55:31
and slaves made-up 50% of the suburb populace.
55:37
So half of the South are slaves. So that shows you how huge the
55:44
economy was. Well, I wish, I wish Ken Burns
55:47
was here because I remember in the Civil War documentary
55:51
there's a historian who speaks about the GDP of the South and
55:56
the GDP was, I wouldn't know off the top of my head, but it was
56:01
more than than certain countries.
56:04
We're going to do a segment on the Lost Cause period, and I
56:08
mentioned the Ken Burns documentary, The Civil War, and
56:12
I've got some information on that.
56:14
So OK, a later episode, a later episode.
56:18
So as I said, slaves make up 50% of the Southern populace.
56:23
Slave owners, they make the laws, they rise highest in
56:27
society. Everyone is basically aspiring
56:32
to be a slave owner because it's the number one status symbol of
56:37
the South of that time. If you own slaves, by the
56:40
1850's, the economy is rising and rising.
56:45
So we've got some figures where 2 billion barrels of cotton were
56:49
being produced per year. Sovereign exports made-up 60% of
56:57
the US economy at that time. Yeah.
56:59
OK. So slavery is a huge, huge part
57:05
of the South. Basically, it is the South is
57:10
what the South is at that time. It's their whole identity and
57:14
that whole identity. But the sovereign planter class,
57:17
you said people, yeah, would aspire to to be a part of this
57:22
class. What political power did they
57:24
wield to protect the institution of slavery before the war?
57:31
So many of these Southern planters were also politicians.
57:33
And at this time, as I said, there were 15 slave States and
57:38
14 three states within the Union.
57:41
So within Congress, each state would have two votes per state.
57:45
So that's just meant that the slave states could stop any anti
57:51
slavery legislation or any abolitionist bills passing
57:55
through Congress. So they wielded immense power.
58:01
So you have to understand, in Britain, slavery have been
58:06
outlawed by royal decree. We did this on an earlier
58:09
episode in 1833. So in America, there's an
58:15
abolitionist movement that begins to take shape, and they
58:20
are appalled that America is still basically governed by
58:28
their slavery instincts. Or their by their slave economy,
58:33
Yeah. So they are appalled that
58:36
slavery is still a huge part of America and essentially what the
58:42
world knows America to be. So the sovereign planters, they
58:49
at this time, they are not willing to outlaw slavery or
58:57
abolish slavery because they have grown rich beyond their
59:01
wildest dreams. These are some of the richest
59:04
people, and not just in America and the world so.
59:10
Have ever walked. The Earth have ever walked the
59:12
Earth. So they say in the North, I
59:14
mean, a lot of Northerners, that they were racist.
59:18
They were institutionally racist, but they were also
59:22
embarrassed that America was lagging behind the rest of the
59:27
world when it came to, yeah, the actual slavery.
59:30
They were wagging behind the rest of the developed world or
59:34
the developing world. Yeah, of the developing world.
59:37
So you have to remember by the 1850s as well, because of the
59:41
increase in cotton production, the money that's bringing in, we
59:46
see maybe arguably a century high in terms of prices that
59:52
slaves are going for, are being sold for OK at this time.
59:57
So essentially the sovereign planters are, as I said, they're
1:00:02
making the laws. They're they're stopping any
1:00:07
changes to what they would see as something that would impugn
1:00:11
on their livelihoods. So they're basically they're,
1:00:17
they fear that if slavery is abolished, then that money stops
1:00:23
and their lifestyles are compromised.
1:00:26
OK, well, I guess you can understand them from that point
1:00:32
of view. They've, they were, they're
1:00:35
living on obscene wealth and they don't want anything that
1:00:39
could prevent them continuing to live on living obscene wealth.
1:00:43
Were there any, were there any slavers who denied slavery, who
1:00:48
came out and said, I don't want to be a part of the system
1:00:51
anymore? This is wrong morally, legally.
1:00:55
We have to understand the best time.
1:00:58
This is the economic reality of the South.
1:01:01
As you said, caught in this, King Lincoln becoming president
1:01:08
in 1860 is a huge threat to their livelihoods.
1:01:13
And they, I mean, although at that time he didn't propose
1:01:16
constitutional change and he does say that territories under
1:01:21
union control would not allow slavery.
1:01:23
But when he's first elected in 1860, he's not coming in and
1:01:27
saying, OK, we're going to abolish slavery on the South,
1:01:30
OK. But as I said, like, you've got
1:01:33
these technological advances and how cotton is produced, and you
1:01:38
can well not understand it because obviously it's for like,
1:01:42
absolutely horrendous reasons. But sovereign intransigence is
1:01:48
born out of that. So when Lincoln's elected, these
1:01:51
men are saying like we're not getting up our livelihoods,
1:01:55
we're not getting up our slaves, our going back to generations
1:01:58
and generations, our family wealth, our family name has been
1:02:03
built on this. So why should we give it up?
1:02:06
So in answer to your question, there would have been some
1:02:10
slavers, some dissented voices, maybe not quite dissenting, but
1:02:15
they would have been OK. This is the way things are
1:02:19
going. It's time to maybe for change
1:02:22
by. Think of it then something else.
1:02:24
Thinking about doing something else.
1:02:25
But it wouldn't have been. They wouldn't have wanted like
1:02:28
rapid and fundamental change because, again, their
1:02:31
livelihoods are wrapped up in the whole institution of
1:02:34
slavery. OK, Well, is there anything more
1:02:39
we should discuss on the economy of the South?
1:02:42
Well, we can just say that that again, they argued, the South
1:02:47
argued that the North had free labour and if slavery ended that
1:02:55
wouldn't be the case in the South and the North.
1:02:58
You have to understand at that time as well, there's huge
1:03:01
segregation, blacks have restricted voting rights,
1:03:04
there's anti black legislation. Most black people, if they work,
1:03:09
they have poor, poorly paid jobs per conditions.
1:03:13
So, on the brink of the American Civil War, the American West is
1:03:17
being realised. We've got states that want to be
1:03:20
permitted into the Union, but they want to maintain the right
1:03:24
of popular sovereignty. And we've got the American
1:03:27
planter class. These sovereign gentlemen and
1:03:32
gentle women are not willing to give up the massive wealth that
1:03:37
they've accumulated through the exploitation and sovereign of
1:03:42
their slaves. So this and everything else that
1:03:46
we've covered in this episode. Is leading only to one place is
1:03:50
leading inexorably towards the American Civil War.
1:03:55
So this is the sovereign economy at the time.
1:04:00
And they argued that slavery was good even for slaves because
1:04:05
they wouldn't have to find work. They were fed, they were housed.
1:04:09
They were basically. It's the whole idea of the
1:04:11
benevolent slave. Yeah, we're all happy with
1:04:15
what's going on, and we don't want any change either.
1:04:17
So please don't come, three of us from our slave masters.
1:04:23
And the North was not the utopia you claimed it to be, so it's.
1:04:27
Not a utopia, I mean, as of I think, and we'll get to Robert
1:04:32
Goldshaw and Glory. There's one point where the
1:04:36
slave owner, the the Union terminal from Kentucky says that
1:04:44
it's, it's hard to imagine Boston with slaves.
1:04:48
That's like, there were slaves in Boston.
1:04:51
Maybe not by that point, but there were definitely slaves in
1:04:54
Boston. Like the US, the East Coast was
1:04:56
a huge launchpad for slaves coming in from Africa.
1:05:01
So alright, what What have been slaves in Boston?
1:05:04
I think we've covered quite a lot of ground there.
1:05:07
Is there anything else to say before we close off this
1:05:10
episode? No, I mean, I think that's it.
1:05:12
I mean, at the start we said this was going to be 6 episodes.
1:05:15
It might be even more. So yeah, it's most likely going
1:05:18
to be more. Now.
1:05:20
I do apologise, listeners. OK.
1:05:24
All right, so we will finish up this episode.
1:05:28
This is our first part, Well, our first episode on a look at
1:05:34
the American Civil War. Johnny, nothing more to say.
1:05:39
I think I've said enough. I mean, we're gonna, we'll go in
1:05:44
the next episode, we'll get into the start of the war maybe to
1:05:48
begin with and see where we go from there.
1:05:50
But as I said, it's not an additive account, but we just
1:05:54
thought the background was crucial.
1:05:57
So there's no point of us doing the background and like episode
1:06:00
6 or something of this, like, yeah.
1:06:03
It wouldn't make any sense. It wouldn't make any sense.
1:06:05
So, all right, well, although it's not a narrative account,
1:06:08
it's, it's important that we do the OR we show the origins of
1:06:12
war to begin with. OK.
1:06:15
All right, signing off this episode then.
1:06:17
Thanks for listening guys. Thanks for listening, see you
1:06:19
next time. See you next time Twin History
1:06:21
podcast. Bye bye.
1:06:24
The Twin History Podcast is a Lost Cosmonauts production
1:06:28
produced by me Virag, Esther Todd.
1:06:31
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1:06:36
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