Latest / Two Takes, One Marriage / Murder Mystery: Betsy Faria

Transcript

Murder Mystery: Betsy Faria · Two Takes, One Marriage

• susan: welcome back. How you doing, babe? Hello everyone. In-Person: Hello everyone. Been a while. susan: I asked how you're doing. In-Person: I'm good susan: Yeah. Golly. How are you doing? I'm okay. In-Person: Whatever you're I'm okay. susan: had a headache most of today. Hasn't been faring well but Go ahead and do this. 'Cause we need to get it done. 'Cause we missed last week. In-Person: last week. We did. Yeah, we need to start being better about recording multiple episodes from time to time so that we have a backup catalog for... susan: Yeah, we need to start being better about recording multiple episodes from time to time so that we have a backup catalog for for those weeks that were just not feeling it. And that was definitely last week for sure. Yeah, you weren't feeling the greatest couple of nights though. Yeah. In-Person: Yeah, you weren't feeling the greatest a couple of nights though, so susan: It happens. In-Person: Sure does. Well, any news? susan: this this is your your time, sir. I know, I'm just wondering if it's so you had No, I I mean unless you know something I don't No. Okay. Then I got nothing. In-Person: I know I'm just wonder if there's anything else that you No susan: It's all it's all you, sir. In-Person: Well... We've had. susan: Good production from the two or three signings that we had in the trade deadline. Tyler Mallee's had two good outings. He'll be interested to see how he does against playoff team 'cause the first couple series we weren't really playing playoff teams. In-Person: good production from the two two or three signings that we had in the trade deadline Tyler Mallee's had two good outings he'll be interested in to see how he does against a playoff team because the first couple series we weren't really playing playoff teams since the trade deadline and all-star break but We dropped the series to... susan: We dropped the series to the Diamondbacks and now we're going out to mid S United States going to Minnesota to n for next three days and then we're In-Person: Diamondbacks and now we're going out to the mid United States going to Minnesota for the next three days and then we're I Think we're playing the white Sox for a game the makeup game Then we gotta go Milwaukee play the Bribbers susan: think we're playing the White Sox for a game, the makeup game. Then we gotta go Milwaukee, play the Brewers In-Person: And so we'll see. And I think we played the Dodgers at home coming up pretty soon. So it's going to be. susan: and so we'll see. And I think we played the Dodgers at home coming up pretty soon. So it's gonna be a quite a schedule to see how we fare against those teams. Feels like some somewhat we're just in cruise control right now. but AJ Smith Schauver is doing really good in the minors and so hopefully we'll see him come back and In-Person: a quiet schedule. We'll see how we fare against those teams. It feels like some somewhat we're just in cruise control right now. But AJ Smith Schaver is doing really good in the minors. And so hopefully we'll see him come back and We'll see where they put him in the rotation maybe move one of the guys down to the bullpen And hopefully we can get Robert Suarez back finally sometime in the next month so he can be Geared up ready for the playoffs But yeah susan: see where they put him in the rotation and maybe move one of the guys down to the bullpen. and hopefully we can get Robert Suarez back finally sometime in the next month so he can be geared up, ready for the playoffs. but yeah. In-Person: Or our offense still is One of the highest in the league susan: Matt Olson just hit his thirty-six home run. he's like third in the MLB this year in home runs right now. so we'll continue to watch the season play out. Hopefully we can get a deep run in October. So Yeah, that's a Braves update. In-Person: Matt Olson just hit his 36 home run. He's like third in the MLB this year in home runs right now. So we'll continue to watch the season play out. Hopefully we can get a deep run in October. So that's the Braves update. susan: Nice. Nice. Okay. Alrighty. So we're gonna talk about we have a murder mystery. Well not it's not like a mystery, like we know who did it, but it's it's a murder. but the only reason I picked one is because all my four you page has been this most recent murder trial. In-Person: It's not like a mystery like we know who did it but it's a murder. Yeah. But the only reason I picked one is because all my for you page has been this most recent murder trial susan: From a murder that happened in two thousand and twenty three. it's Lindsay Clancy. When she first told me she said two thousand three, I'm like That's In-Person: from a murder that happened in 2023. It's Lindsey Clancy. When she first told me she said 2003 I'm like... susan: wild. In-Person: why in the world would they be looking at a case that's 23 years old? mean like there's things that sometimes they susan: Looking at a a case that's twenty three years old. I mean like there's things Well, they could be sometimes a murder could have happened in twenty t in two thousand three. Yeah. And then the murderer wasn't caught until two thousand eighteen and then they weren't tried until after due to the fact of covet, you know, things get pushed In-Person: Yeah. susan: back. But no. So The case that has been on my for you page is wild. It has just been crazy wild. I'm so mind blown at some of the things that are being said that I don't understand how they didn't investigate more thoroughly. Yeah. In-Person: some of the things that are being said that I don't understand how they didn't investigate more thoroughly. susan: And so I'm not gonna go into details 'cause it does deal with children and I'm I've always said that I don't really wanna discuss but the only thing like a lot of people know the Christopher Watts case is very similar, in in which he tried to frame his wife and it didn't go as planned. And now most people speculate that in this case with the Clancy case that the husband again committed all of it, did all of it, and is trying to blame the wife In-Person: people speculate that in this case with the Clancy case that the husband again committed all of it did all of it and is trying to blame the wife susan: But you know, it it she didn't fully die, so there was no way to like now she's got this trial. If she hadn't of survived, who knows what they would have if they even really would have investigated it or if it would have been just 'cause the dude got married four months In-Person: after his family died which I I could never susan: His family. His family died. Mhm. Which I c I could never In-Person: if something terrible happened to my family I especially if my spouse was the one who supposedly did it susan: if something terrible happened to my family, I especially if my spouse was the one who supposedly did it, there is no way I could ever trust another human being to marry them. Yeah. Like that would be really hard for me to do. I don't know. What about you? In-Person: There is no way I could ever trust another human being to marry them. Yeah. Like that would be really hard for me to do. I don't know. What about you? they would definitely there'd be healing process for sure. It'd be probably years before anything like. It wouldn't be like four months and married having a new baby. That'd be insane. Yeah, I just, I think that that's a bit wild. susan: For anything like it wouldn't be like four months and then you're married having another baby. That'd be insane. Yeah, I just I think that that's a bit wild. Honestly. But so it made me want to do Yeah. It's not the jury hasn't come out yet, In-Person: I'm bit curious. susan: on the conviction of it. So we'll see. what happens. So, because it's been all over my for you page, I like, we could do an episode of, you know A murder of some kind. Murder. Judas. In-Person: Murder No susan: I so I heard that a lot. I'd never seen the vine before, but I heard it a lot while we were hanging out with his family. Not a lot, but like a few times. and so I tried to bring it up to Jonah and be funny. In-Person: So I heard that a lot. I'd never seen the vine before, but I heard it a lot while we were hanging out with his family. Not a lot, but like a few times. And so I tried to bring it up to Jonah and be funny. and he didn't get it I was butchering it I didn't do it right you're supposed to say I bought you some murder murder well I was quoting Sean from Psych susan: And he didn't get it. He was he I was I also was butchering it. I didn't do it right. You're supposed to say I bought you some moh. well I was quoting Sean from psych. no, I was quoting the thing. I was quoting the vine. Yeah, I mean I I picked up the vine right after you In-Person: Yeah, I mean, I picked up the vine right after you. susan: You said that In-Person: You said it. susan: Well sometimes it just happens where you're on two different wavelengths. Yeah. It does happen. 'Cause there's just so many so many movies and T V shows and episodes of like things, music. That wasn't even a T V show, that was social media thing. I know, but that's what I'm saying is like there's so many things out there. There's so many things that you can get like In-Person: Yeah. It does happen. Cause there's just so many, so many movies and TV shows and episodes of like things. Well, that wasn't even a TV show. was social media thing. I know, but that's what I'm saying is like. So there's so many things out there. There's so many things that you can get like a little. susan: a little snip of and you're just and you reference it but then someone thinks it's something else because it there's just there's just that possibility. Yeah. Okay. So we are going to talk about the murder of Betsy Farah. I did not learn how to pronounce the last name. It's F A R I A. In-Person: Yeah Okay, so we are going to talk about the murder of Betsy Farah. I did not learn how to pronounce the last name. It's F-A-R-I-A. Alright. So I'm just gonna call her Betsy. And we're just gonna leave it at that. Okay? Alright. So it is December 27th, 2011. You ready? Yeah. For the story? susan: Alright. so I'm just gonna call her Betsy and we're just gonna leave it at that, okay. Alright, so it is December twenty seventh, two thousand and eleven. You ready for the story? It was Tuesday in Troy, Missouri, and forty two year old Betsy had just spent the day doing something that had become part of her life chemotherapy. Betsy had breast cancer. By this point the cancer had spread and her condition was terminal. She was still trying to live as normal as possible, chemotherapy becoming a regular part of her routine. That day she had gone to St. Louis for treatment, and afterwards. In-Person: It was Tuesday in Troy, Missouri and 42 year old Betsy had just spent the day doing something that had become part of her life, chemotherapy. Betsy had breast cancer. By this point the cancer had spread and her condition was terminal. She was still trying to live as normal as possible, chemotherapy becoming a regular part of her routine. That day she had gone to St. Louis for treatment and afterward susan: She needed a ride home. Her friend Pam In-Person: she needed a ride home. Her friend Pam Humber dink susan: Hump Hump Hump HUPP. Humperdink. Humperdink? No. H U P P. I don't but her friend Pam offered to take her home. Like back and forth. In-Person: Okay. That sounds completely innocent. Two friends, one giving the other a ride home after a difficult day. Pam picked Betsy up and drove her back to her house in Troy. According to Pam's account, she dropped Betsy off at approximately 7pm and then Pam left. At that moment, there was nothing that suggested that anything terrible was about to happen. Betsy was home, her husband Russ wasn't there yet, and sometime during the next few hours, Betsy was murdered. susan: And that sounds completely innocent. Two friends, one giving the other a ride home after a difficult day. Pam picked Betsy up and drove her back to her house in Troy. According to Pam's account, she dropped Betsy off at approximately seven PM and then Pam left. At that moment there was nothing that suggested that anything terrible was about to happen. Betsy was home, her husband Russ wasn't there yet, and sometime during the next few hours, Betsy was murdered. Bum bum bum. Yeah. Put some put some sound sounds in there, babe. You got that. Okay. And you can ask questions if you need to. I won't know the answer, but you can ask Okay. I didn't so So I guess we're doing it other mysteries that you looked up but you just wanted to talk about. In-Person: Okay So I guess we're other mysteries that you looked up you just wanted to talk about the other murder why you picked murder mystery episode because of what's going on okay I guess I missed that part yeah no so I susan: That other murder. Well, the c the reason I wanted to explain why I picked why you picked murder mystery episode because of what's going on? Yeah. Okay. I guess I missed that part. That's what I was explaining the whole time. my gosh, we're gonna have to listen back to this and you're gonna be like, Wow, I must have spaced. Yeah. No. So I In-Person: got this story and susan: got this story And it's a bit long and I was tired, so I didn't read through it fully, so I don't have the answers to your questions if you have a question that I don't know the answer to yet. This one you're falling asleep on the couch yesterday? Yes. Dang. Okay. In-Person: it's a bit long and I was tired so I didn't read through it fully so I don't have the answers to your questions if you have a question that I don't know the answer to. Was this when you were falling asleep on the couch yesterday? Yes. Dang. Okay. susan: All right. Later that night Russ was on his way home. Russ and Betsy have been married for several years. They had a complicated relationship and there had reportedly been arguments between them. But Russ would eventually maintain that whatever problems they had, he did not kill his wife. So according to what happened? Russ arrived home that night and he found Betsy. She was dead and the scene was horrifying. Betsy had been stabbed numerous times. Investigator found multiple knives at the scene, including one still in her body. so he came home, he found her and he called nine one one. In-Person: Mm-hmm Really? Well, I think that's always probably number one Is the spouse at first susan: He told the dispatcher that he had come home and found his wife and almost immediately the investigation began focusing on him. Really? Yes. Well and Well, I think that's always probably w number one Yeah, number one suspect typically when it comes to Yeah, when it com when it comes to spouses or People when it comes to murder investigations, typically depending it also depends on the type of I guess severeness. Yeah. Like if it's personal or not. And if it's personal, then you know it's gonna be somebody close to the victim. You know, that that's typically what is said. And it's has a little bit more rage, making it more personal. And like multiple knives In-Person: Yeah If it's personal or not and if it's personal then you know it's gonna be somebody close to the victim susan: Yeah. That that's that shows rage. To me that that screams this person knew this it wasn't like a home break in or anything like that. Yeah. In-Person: yeah That shows rage. To me that screams, this person knew this, wasn't like a home break in or anything like that. Yeah. susan: So back to the story. They're focused on him. And so it happened so quickly. A woman is murdered inside her home. Her husband is the person who finds her. The husband becomes the obvious person for investigators to look at. Police began questioning Russ about his marriage, his relationship with Betsy, and where he had been that evening. Russ said he had been out with friends. He gave investigators an explanation for where he had been and who could verify it. But investigators weren't convinced. They began hearing about problems. in the marriage. They heard allegations about arguments and Russ's temper. Russ was given a polygraph a polygraph examination. So a lot of times I've heard don't do a polygraph. Even if you think that you you know even though you know you didn't do anything wrong, you're In-Person: in the marriage. They heard allegations about arguments and Russ's temper. Russ was given a polygraph examination. So a lot of times I've heard, don't do a polygraph. Even if you think that, you know, even though you know you didn't do anything wrong, you're... susan: whatever's going on with your polygraph though? You you can. In-Person: Wait, can you deny a polygraph though? susan: You can say no to a polygraph. However, that makes you look more guilty, but if ever you get arrested by the police, immediately contact a lawyer, immediately get a lawyer and say you want a lawyer. Do not talk to them because it doesn't matter if you're innocent or guilty. They will see it however they want to see it. In-Person: You can say no to a polygraph, however, that makes you look more guilty. But if ever you get arrested by the police, immediately contact a lawyer, immediately get a lawyer and say you want a lawyer. Do not talk to them because it doesn't matter if you're innocent or guilty. They will see it however they want to see it. Somebody's polygraph test. Been watching too many crime shows. susan: And those polygraph tests aren't always too many crime shows. No, this is what actual people say though. This is what lawyers say too. well, this is what lawyers say because polygraphs aren't always accurate. Yeah. They can they can get a false reading. Yeah. And then you look guilty when you're actually not. Or In-Person: Yeah They can get a false reading and then you look guilty when you're actually not or susan: you look innocent when you're actually guilty. So you never know where you're gonna land with a polygraph examination, so best to just not do it. Mm, not always. There's fingerprints, DNA. As long as there's no evidence at all, then you should be fine. But don't go In-Person: you look innocent when you're actually guilty so you never know where you're gonna land with a polygraph examination so best to... you never know where you're gonna land in general unless you have video evidence not always there's fingerprints no that yeah all that stuff yeah as long as there's no evidence at all then you should be but don't susan: committing murder people. Let's not do that. We're not condoning that. Yeah, definitely In-Person: Yeah, definitely not. susan: not. So he's given a polygraph. The results were interpreted as indicating deception when he was questioned about Betsy's murder. That became another piece of the case against him. But there was another person investigators were talking to. Pam. Do you remember who Pam is? The friend that dropped her off. Yep. She was the friend who had driven Betsy home after chemotherapy. In-Person: So he's given a polygraph the results were interpreted as indicating deception when he was questioned about Betsy's murder. That became another piece of the case against him. But there was another person investigators were talking to. Pam. Do you remember who Pam is? The friend that dropped her off, right? She was a friend who had driven Betsy home after chemotherapy. Pam told investigators about Russ. She described problems between Russ and Betsy. susan: Pam told investigators about Russ. She described problems between Russ and Betsy. In-Person: She also provided information that investigators considered significant about Betsy's state of mind and her relationship with Russ. One particularly important piece of evidence came from Betsy's computer. Investigators found a document that appeared to be a message from Betsy expressing fear of Russ. At first glance, that looked incredibly damning. Yeah. susan: She also provided information that investigators considered significant about Betsy's state of mind and her relationship with Russ. One particularly important piece of evidence came from Betsy's computer. Investigators found a document that appeared to be a message from Betsy expressing fear of Russ. At first glance, that looked incredibly damning. And if you're investigating a murder and you find something that appears to be written by the victim saying that she's afraid of her husband, that's gonna get the police's attention and that they're definitely gonna be like, Okay, so we're on the right track. It's a red flag. Yeah. But later questions were raised about that document. There were issues involving its creation and In-Person: And if you're investigating a murder and you find something that appears to be written by the victim saying that she's afraid of her husband, that's going to get the police's attention. And then they're definitely going to be like, OK, so we're on the right track. That's a red flag. Yeah. But later, questions were raised about that document. There were issues involving its creation and. susan: authorship. and it became part of the controversy surrounding the original investigation. But at the time, Russ was becoming the center of the case. And eventually he was arrested. Russ was charged with Betsy's murder. He continued to say he was innocent. Prosecutors believed they could prove otherwise. The case went to trial in two thousand thirteen. So keep in mind Two years later. Yep. It happened in two thousand and eleven. In-Person: The case went to trial in 2013. So keep in mind. Two years later. Yep. It happened in 2011. 2013. susan: Two thousand thirteen. It went to trial and he was convicted. He was sentenced to life in prison. So at that point, if we're looking at the official story, it seemed like the mystery was solved. Betsy was murdered. Her husband had been convicted. The jury heard the evidence and found him guilty. But her husband wasn't giving up. He continued fighting the conviction and eventually he got another trial. This time his defense was able to present additional evidence and challenge parts of the original investigation. So when when did he get a new trial? How many years later? In-Person: husband wasn't giving up. He continued fighting the conviction and eventually he got another trial. This time his defense was able to present additional evidence and challenge parts of the original investigation and this is where the case starts changing dramatically. So when did he get a new trial? How many years later? susan: I think it was Two thousand He was thirteen's when he got convicted. Yeah, hold on. In-Person: 2013 when he got convicted susan: I had it here somewhere. Now I've lost it. Give me a second. In-Person: Details, babe, details. susan: Details, babe, details. In-Person: It was before 2019. So like five susan: It was before twenty nineteen. So like five In-Person: years later, six years later. susan: Six years later? Sure. two thousand fifteen. So two years later. Yeah, two thousand and fifteen. Two years in prison. He gets a second second trial. At least two years in prison. I should have done this one. Dang. In-Person: 2015 so two years later two years in prison at least two years in prison susan: This one had more information. I just wanted it a little bit more summed up 'cause it was already long. Okay. So where are we at? In-Person: I got a second trial where his come forward with more evidence different evidence susan: I got a second trial where his come forward with more evidence. Different evidence. Mm. yes. And so and there is where the case starts changing dramatically, I already said that. Because he wasn't just saying I didn't do it. His defense was now pointing towards another person. In-Person: because he wasn't just saying I didn't do it his defense was now pointing towards another person who do you think that person is? Pam? the only other person that was mentioned in the story? well you don't know maybe I could have left out a person you don't know? susan: Who do you think that person is? Pam. Mm-hmm. The only other person that was mentioned in the story. well, you don't know. Maybe I could have left out a person. You don't know. And suddenly people began taking a much closer look at Pam. In-Person: And suddenly people began taking a much closer look at Pam. There's one detail that makes the entire case take a completely different turn. Four days before Betsy's murder, Betsy had changed the beneficiary of a hundred and fifty thousand dollar life insurance policy. To Pam? The original beneficiary had been Russ. But on December 23rd... susan: There's one detail that makes the entire case take a completely different turn. Four days before Betsy's murder, Betsy had changed the beneficiary of a hundred fifty thousand dollars insurance policy. To Pam. The original beneficiary had been Russ, but on december twenty third, twenty eleven, she changed her beneficiary to Pam. Four days later, Betsy was dead. In-Person: 2011 she changed her beneficiary to Pam. Four days later Betsy was dead. susan: That's one of those details where you almost have to stop and go back through the timeline. Yeah. So December twenty third, Betsy's char changes a a hundred and fifty thousand dollar insurance policy. In-Person: That's one of those details where you almost have to stop and go back through the timeline. So December 23rd, Betsy changes a $150,000 insurance policy. susan: Keep in mind, Betsy has chemotherapy. Yeah. Like she's got she's gone to chemotherapy, she's got cancer. So and and it's not going away. It didn't sound like it was What did it say what stage it was? Or no? In-Person: keep in mind betty has chemotherapy yeah she's got cancer so and and it's not going away it didn't sound like it was but did it say what stage it was or no it doesn't have the details susan: Yeah, it said it said had spread and her condition was terminal. Okay. Yeah, her condition is terminal. So why not just wait for her to die? I d I mean, yeah. In-Person: Maybe I missed you saying that part. Head spread and her condition was terminal. Okay. Yeah. The condition was terminal. So why not just wait for her to die? I mean, susan: I mean that's a sad way to look at it, but also especially if it she changed hands of the turn of the insurance policy. Yeah, I know. Just wait it out. Who knows how long it would take, but I mean that's a morbid way of thinking about it, but In-Person: I mean, that's a sad way to Especially if she changed hands of the insurance policy. Yeah, know. Just wait it out. Who knows how long it would take. Yeah. I mean, that's a morbid way of thinking about it, but susan: I would rather well, okay. Okay. If her if it had been a like dosing of some kind In-Person: I would rather well okay okay if her if it had been a like dosing of some kind and not a brutal murder like that's what that was brutal the multiple knives but why do you think she would get mad if she changed the intro susan: And not a brutal murder? Like that's what that was brutal. The multiple knives and the stabbing. She would get mad if she changed the in In-Person: I'm starting susan: But also like why it wouldn't the husband be mad? In-Person: Like why It would be yeah, that's what I gonna say Wouldn't susan: Wouldn't it still be point towards Russ because she changed the insurance policy to someone else? So he gets mad it we're t at the beginning of the story it says a angry temper. A temper enraged killing. Yeah. Stabbed fourteen times. No, it didn't say how many times she was fourteen. I don't know. I don't think In-Person: still be pointing towards Russ because she changed the insurance policy to someone else so he gets Matt it weird at the beginning in the story says a angry temper enraged killing Stabbed 14 times susan: it did. Multiple stabs. It just said multiple stab rooms. Well, and it had multiple knives. So you have multiple In-Person: Multiple stab wounds and a knife was still in the body Well, and it had multiple knives. So you have multiple susan: Stab loons with multiple knives, which means someone came with their knives and like went and grabbed the knives and then started killing her and used a different knife every few stabs or you know, whatever. But I know like In-Person: stab wounds with multiple knives, which means someone came with their knives and like went and grabbed the knives and then started killing her and used a different knife every few stabs or, you know, whatever. But I know, like. susan: you would think that, but also you have to think of the money. But however, again In-Person: You would think that but also you have to think of the money. however again I think it would have been a little bit different had it been like In euthanasia killing, you know where they're just in pain and you're just trying to use the nation. Yeah Like the angel the angel of death or whatever there's there's some there's some specific name that it's called when susan: I think it would have been a little bit different had it been like, in euthanasia killing, you know? Where they're just in pain and and you're just trying to euthanasia? Yeah. We're we're just like the angel the angel of death or whatever. There's there's some there's some specific name that it's called when when there is a person who In-Person: when there is a person who kills people so that they die the way they want to, not in agony, you know? You know what I'm talking about? susan: kills people so that they die the way they want to, not in agony, you know? You you know what I'm talking about? In-Person: Sort of. Well, do you understand what I'm saying? Is the type of murderer that one is? susan: Well do you understand what I'm saying is is the type of murderer that one is? where they're just trying to suffering so yeah. Yeah. That's one of those situations. No, it wasn't. But the thing is is that if it was her friend, I feel like that's the way it should have gone. In-Person: Just trying to ease their suffering so they end them. This wasn't one of those situations. No it wasn't. But the thing is that if it was her friend, I feel like that's the way it should have gone. susan: If if it's supposed to be her like they're pointing the finger In-Person: If it's supposed to be her like they're pointing the finger, but I feel like if it was her friend She cared about her. She just got this money life insurance policy She would probably find a more humane way to do it because you know She just was tired of seeing her suffer because she's she's taking her back from chemotherapy. Maybe you know Betsy was like I can't do this anymore. I don't want to do chemotherapy like we don't know the conversation that they had who not susan: But I feel like if it was her friend, she cared about her, she just got this money life insurance policy, she would probably find a more humane way to do it. Because, you know, she just was tired of seeing her suffer because she's she's taken her back from chemotherapy. Maybe, you know, Betsy was like, I can't do this anymore. I don't want to do chemotherapy. Like, we don't know the conversation that they had. Who knows? In-Person: Seems like a very violent way to kill someone though, but it just wants to die Okay Yeah susan: I know, that's what I'm saying is is I feel like if it was the friend, it would definitely have been more humane. Yes. That's what I'm saying. okay. Because now they're trying to point the finger at Pam. Yeah. So you know, back to the timeline. so you've got Betsy December twenty third of that year. Betsy changes the life insurance policy. December twenty seventh, she receives chemotherapy. Pam picks her up and drives her home. Later that night, Betsy's murdered and Pam is now the beneficiary of the policy. Pam eventually received the insurance money because Russ was in prison? Yeah, he got he got convicted of the crime. In-Person: In prison susan: So once the investigation is done, they will then give the money out as long as you're not the murderer. They're not gonna they're not gonna give you the benefici I don't know, maybe they do. I've never looked into what happens if you're the murderer and do you still get that beneficiary money 'cause In-Person: Why would you susan: Why would you get it? Yeah. Because it's still legally binding that y you're the rightful owner to that money. Does that make sense? I guess so. So I don't know. In-Person: How did you get it? Because it's still legally binding that you're the rightful owner to that money. Does that make sense? I guess so. So I don't know. Okay, so Pam receives the insurance money she maintained that Betsy had intended the money to benefit her daughters Although questions were later raised about her explanations regarding the money and what happened to it and suddenly investigators had a completely different susan: Okay. So Pam receives the insurance money. She maintained that Betsy had intended the money to benefit her daughters, although questions were later raised about her explanations regarding the money and what happened to it. And suddenly investigators had a completely different In-Person: possible motive to consider money But here's the important part when Russ went through his second trial. in 2015 susan: possible motive to consider money. But here's the important part. When Russ went through his second trial, in 2015. Hmm, that's where it tells it. His defense was able to present evidence that had not been fully presented to the first jury. The defense challenged the investigation, they challenged the evidence, they highlighted problems with the original case and they pointed towards Pam. This time the result was completely different. Russ was acquitted. After spending years in prison, he was free. And now there was a huge unanswered question. If Russ didn't kill Betsy, who did? And then several years later, Pam became involved in another murder. This is where the story gets almost unbelievable. In August 2016, a man named Lois Gerpin. Garpenberg I picked the words with the worst names. Do you know what that says? Okay. Garpenstein. Garpenberg I don't know. Lewis. The dude's name is Lewis. Was shot and killed. Pam told investigators that Lewis had attacked her. Her initial story was that she had been defending herself, but police didn't ultimately believe that explanation. In-Person: But police didn't ultimately believe that explanation. As they investigated, they determined that the circumstances surrounding Lewis's death had been staged. There was an extraordinary detail. There was also an extraordinary detail involving Russ. susan: As they investigated, they determined that the circumstances surrounding Lewis's death had been staged. There was an extraordinary detail there was also an extraordinary detail involving Russ. A note was found that was apparently intended to make it appear as though Russ had arranged for Lewis to attack Pam. In-Person: A note was found that was apparently intended to make it appear as though Russ had arranged for Lewis to attack Pam. Interesting. Investigators eventually concluded that this was part of a setup designed to make it look as though Russ was still trying to get revenge against Pam. Pam eventually entered an off... susan: Interesting. Investigators eventually concluded that this was part of a setup designed to make it look as though Russ was still trying to get revenge against Pam. Pam eventually entered an Alf Alfred plea to the murder of Lewis. She was sentenced to life in prison without parole. And now investigators had something they hadn't had in the Betsy case. Pam was a convicted murderer. In-Person: Yeah susan: That changed how they looked at everything. So they decided to open up the case. Investigators went back to Betsy's case, they looked at the insurance policy. They looked at the timeline again. They looked at Pam's statements from the original. Yeah. They looked at the original investigation and they looked at everything they had learned about Lewis's case. Eventually, prosecutors came to believe that Pam had killed Betsy. Their theory was that the hundred and fifty thousand dollar insurance policy provided a motive. They believe Pam had deliberately positioned herself to become the beneficiary and then killed Betsy. In twenty twenty one Pam was charged with first degree murder in Betsy's death. But this is an important distinction. Betsy has not been convicted of killing Betsy. Pam In-Person: But this is an important distinction. Betsy has not been convicted of killing Betsy. Pam has not been convicted. She was just charged? Yeah, she was just charged. She hasn't gone to trial. But she's already in prison for the other thing. She is serving life in prison for the separate murder of Louis. susan: has not been convicted. She was just charged? Yeah, she's just charged. She hasn't she hasn't gone to trial. But she's already in prison for the other thing. Mm, she she is serving life in prison for the separate murder of Lewis. It still remains an allegation. Because she hasn't gone to trial. Yeah. She hasn't been convicted. So really it's just hearsay. Or not hearsay, but like it's still allegedly In-Person: It still remains an allegation because she hasn't gone to trial. Yeah. really, it's just hearsay. So we still don't know. We still don't know who's Betsy's killer. So when we tell this story, we can't say, Pam killed Betsy. susan: She's allegedly killed. killer. So when we tell this story, we can't say Pam killed Betsy. We can say that prosecutors allege she did and we can talk about the evidence and the circumstances that led them to charge her. And that's what makes this case so complicated because there are really two stories happening at the same time. And that's the story of Betsy. A woman who was terminally ill. Who went to chemotherapy on December twenty seventh, who was driven home by a friend and who was murdered that night. And then there's the story of Russ, the husband who was immediately suspected, the man who was convicted, the man who spent years in prison, and the man who was eventually acquitted. And then there's Pam, the friend who drove Betsy home, the person who became the beneficiary of Betsy's life insurance just days before her death, the person who eventually became involved. in another murder and the person who was ultimately charged with killing Betsy. But there's still something we don't have. A definitive courtroom answer to exactly what happened inside Betsy's house that night. And that's what makes this case so fascinating. Because when you first hear it, you think it's gonna be a story about a husband who murdered his wife. Then you find out the husband was acquitted. Then you find out about the insurance policy. Then you find out about Pam. In-Person: Yeah susan: Then you find out Pam was later convicted in a tirely separate murder. Because keep in mind, Betsy's murder happened in two thousand eleven. And then the murder for the other gentleman wasn't until two thousand sixteen. That's like a five year difference. And suddenly you're looking back at the December night wondering how many things investigators missed because somewhere between the time Pam says she dropped Betsy off and the time Russ came home and found her. In-Person: Yeah Five years. And suddenly you're looking back at the December night wondering how many things investigators missed because somewhere between the time Pam says she dropped Betsy off and the time Russ came home and found her, she was murdered. And after all these years, there's still the question at the center of the entire story, what really happened that night. susan: She was murdered, and after all these years, there's still the question at the center of the entire story what really happened that night. In-Person: guess we won't know until the afterlife who do you viewers who do you think did it susan: Guess we won't know until the afterlife. I know. And it was a mystery. Like alleged prosecutors allegedly believed that Who do you viewers, who do you think did it? Yeah. I mean, In-Person: He got acquitted but that doesn't mean anything. He could have killed her because he got angry over the life insurance policy which again, don't know why you would kill her because then you don't get anything. Yeah. susan: he got acquitted, but that doesn't mean anything. He could have killed her because he got angry over the life insurance policy. Which again, don't know why you would kill her because then you don't get anything. In-Person: But I just find that very interesting and the letter she typed up at her house supposedly they don't think that she wrote it but I don't know. But yeah. susan: But I just find that very interesting and the letter she typed up at her house, supposedly, they don't think that she wrote it. But I don't know. But yeah, that's that was Pam was cooking evidence when she tried to frame tried to fit her in him twice. Yeah. You think that she wrote the letter on the computer? Yeah. In-Person: I think Pam was cooking evidence when she tried to frame, tried to frame him twice. Yeah. Do you think that she wrote the letter on the computer? Yeah. susan: It didn't say how many days old the letter was. So next time I'll have a little bit more details if you want. But I just kinda wanted a story. Murder mystery episode. Yeah, so hopefully That was a good one. Hopefully you enjoyed it. I did, I really enjoyed it. I think you I think you spaced out for the first half of it though. I I was In-Person: Murder mystery episode that was a good one I was I guess in my own little worlds susan: I guess in my own little world for the first like few sentences of the case and then I came back. Alright, In-Person: for the first like few sentences of the case and then I came back. susan: well we'll see ya next time. Bye. In-Person: Bye. susan: Bye.