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The Answering Machine Message: The Unsolved Murder of Jennifer Clemmings with A Simpler Time True Crime · Least of These

0:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to least of these where I cover the cases that need it most because every life matters and everyone deserves justice.
0:09
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm your host Leah D and I'm still on break, but I'm popping in here to bring you another one of my favorite podcasts.
0:17
[SPEAKER_00]: This week, Megan from a simpler time true crime is here to fill in, and this is actually the first time her show has been featured here.
0:24
[SPEAKER_00]: But let me tell ya, it's long overdue.
0:27
[SPEAKER_00]: I recently discovered a simpler time true crime, and I seriously cannot get enough.
0:33
[SPEAKER_00]: a simpler time revisits unsolved cases from decades past.
0:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Stories that have been forgotten or overlooked and asked the question whether a simpler time was ever really a safer one.
0:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Megan tells these stories always with the victim and their families at the forefront with a goal of long-awaited justice.
0:53
[SPEAKER_00]: You can find a simpler time true crime wherever you're listening right now and I'll be sure to drop links in the show notes.
1:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Today, Meghan is bringing us the case of 32-year-old Jennifer Climbing's and Stone Mountain Georgia.
1:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Jennifer was a high-ranking sales consultant for Mary K. Beauty on her way to the very top.
1:13
[SPEAKER_00]: But on January 27th of 2003, Jennifer was found murdered in her own home.
1:19
[SPEAKER_00]: After a friend discovered a chilling message on her answering machine.
1:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's join Meghan as she tells us the story
1:38
[SPEAKER_01]: A beautiful and vivacious 32-year-old woman has hit a sweet spot for success in her life.
1:45
[SPEAKER_01]: She was a high-ranking sales consultant for the Beauty Company Mary Kay, even earning the famous Pink Catalac.
1:52
[SPEAKER_01]: But one evening in 2002, all of her momentum would be halted when her life was snuffed out by violent sexual predator.
2:02
[SPEAKER_01]: When she realized she was in danger, she heroically placed a covert phone call to a friend, which was recorded on this friend's answering machine.
2:12
[SPEAKER_01]: The recording is a chilling exchange between Jennifer and the person most likely responsible for taking her life.
2:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Her friend called for help immediately upon receiving the message, but it was too late.
2:25
[SPEAKER_01]: And to this day, nobody has been able to identify the evil voice in this message.
2:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Connections to nearby cases in forensic advances give her family hope that they too will get answers someday soon, and they are not giving up.
2:41
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm your host Megan, and each week on a simpler time true crime, I cover older unsolved cases in challenge the idea that a simpler time means a safer time.
2:51
[SPEAKER_01]: This week I'm bringing to you the unsolved murder of Jennifer Clemmings.
3:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Jennifer Clemings was born in Jamaica on March 1, 1970, the baby of the family with four older sisters.
3:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Her family moved to the United States when she was about 10 years old.
3:29
[SPEAKER_01]: She graduated from New Buffalo High School in Michigan, where she was a three-sport athlete.
3:35
[SPEAKER_01]: She ran track,
3:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Jennifer stayed in Michigan for college attending Ferris State University and earning a degree in international business.
3:48
[SPEAKER_01]: But after that, she wanted to change, and so she moved to the Atlanta Georgia area.
3:52
[SPEAKER_01]: A couple of years later, after she moved to Georgia, her mother and her sister Jackie followed suit.
3:59
[SPEAKER_01]: This was a great fit because Jennifer was known to be the ultimate aunt to her sister Jackie's children.
4:05
[SPEAKER_01]: According to an article in the Atlanta Constitution, she'd even sometimes fill in for her sister if she couldn't make it to school events.
4:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Jennifer was known for being a social butterfly and she was very driven.
4:18
[SPEAKER_01]: This led her to the path of working in sales for the huge direct sales, multi-level marketing company Mary Kay.
4:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Mary Kay is likely a name you're familiar with.
4:30
[SPEAKER_01]: It has been in the MLM space since 1963, and it's a company where independent consultant sell makeup and skincare products directly to customers.
4:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Money is made in a couple of different ways.
4:42
[SPEAKER_01]: First by purchasing the products at wholesale pricing to then resell for profit, and then also by recruiting your own team of consultants, and by doing that you earn bonuses and commissions on your team sales.
4:56
[SPEAKER_01]: The more you advance in that, the more you rank as they refer to it in the Drexale's world, and different ranks give you different perks based off of your individual and team stats and sales performance.
5:08
[SPEAKER_01]: At Mary Kay, one of the ultimate signs of success was, and still is, earning their pink Cadillac.
5:14
[SPEAKER_01]: And in 2002, when Jennifer was ranking in this way, that required someone to have the title of at least sales director, and her team would have had to pull in $96 to $100,000 in wholesale production over a six month period.
5:29
[SPEAKER_01]: That doesn't mean they had to sell all of that product to customers, it just means they needed to make those wholesale purchases with, hopefully, the intent to sell to customers, and orders had to be placed by the leads like Jennifer and her consultants.
5:43
[SPEAKER_01]: It's also typical to have a minimum amount of people on your team at least 24 and Jennifer had a team of 56 and was considered a senior sales director.
5:53
[SPEAKER_01]: She had qualified for the car three separate times and was definitely in a more exclusive earnings category at the company.
6:02
[SPEAKER_01]: You're probably wondering why I'm deep diving on this Mary K business infrastructure so much with you, and one, it's to paint a picture of how successful she was relative to the thousands of other consultants in the company, and the life that may have afforded her.
6:16
[SPEAKER_01]: But also, the MLAM slash drag sales model is not without its drawbacks.
6:20
[SPEAKER_01]: It's come under fire before, and we have no idea if her job had anything to do with who she crossed paths with, but just put a pin in it for now because it does come back later.
6:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Jennifer Clemming's hard-working success had afforded her the ability to purchase a home in stone-mount in Georgia into Cobb County.
6:39
[SPEAKER_01]: The house was located on Martin Road, a cute middle-class subdivision.
6:43
[SPEAKER_01]: The house was a great size for Jennifer with plenty of room for a woman living alone.
6:48
[SPEAKER_01]: It was a three-bedroom split level that was around 1300 square feet.
6:54
[SPEAKER_01]: It was on a lot big enough to have a garden and a little privacy in her yard, but also she was surrounded by neighbors.
7:01
[SPEAKER_01]: You would not feel isolated at all on this property.
7:04
[SPEAKER_01]: In the months and days leading up to her death, Jennifer was focused on giving back to her community and starting new initiatives.
7:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Jennifer and her best friend Alyssa had been planning to form a used clothing charity to help women who had faced abuse, homelessness, and other disadvantages.
7:22
[SPEAKER_01]: They also wanted to branch out of this and create a model to give advice on business success and how to address how to do your makeup and other similar things to women, particularly brides about to get married.
7:36
[SPEAKER_01]: and actually just a couple of days before her murder, Jennifer and Alyssa had conducted their very first workshop for a bridal party.
7:44
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just beautiful that Jennifer did not just sit with her success, she was actively trying to coach and mentor others to be successful like her and I just do think that's a beautiful thing.
7:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Jennifer's best friend, Alyssa, described Jennifer to the Atlanta Constitution as larger than life, and she said, quote, she could get a paparly going at the supermarket.
8:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Jennifer was also known for signing her name as the Jennifer Clemmings, which became a moniker she was known by within Mary Kay and those closest to her.
8:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Jennifer's sister Jackie told the same paper that Jennifer used to jokely tell her and her sisters all pray for you when they did something crazy and would always give her a big kiss on the cheek and refused to get off the phone or leave in person unless they said I love you to each other.
8:35
[SPEAKER_01]: She said you couldn't be around Jennifer and be in a bad mood.
8:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Jennifer took her Christian faith seriously and it was intertwined into her last conversation with Jackie.
8:47
[SPEAKER_01]: The morning of the murder, Jennifer had called her sister Jackie from her car phone.
8:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Jackie wasn't feeling well and Jennifer said to her quote, girl, let me pray for you.
8:56
[SPEAKER_01]: And so Jackie had Jennifer pray for her over the phone and little did she know that would be the last conversation she would have with her sister.
9:06
[SPEAKER_01]: In the early evening of January 27, 2003, Jennifer had a phone conversation with her best friend Alyssa and Alyssa's husband Renardo.
9:15
[SPEAKER_01]: According to the couple, they had a very regular conversation about life, and friends, and family.
9:23
[SPEAKER_01]: As they were getting off the phone, Jennifer didn't share any big plans for the evening.
9:27
[SPEAKER_01]: She certainly didn't discuss having anybody over, and that's something Ronaldo said she would have told them.
9:33
[SPEAKER_01]: That was just her disposition and her communication style, and it would have gone along with what they were already talking about.
9:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Shortly after getting off of the phone with Jennifer, Alyssa and Renardo got on their computer where they had dial up internet.
9:47
[SPEAKER_01]: For my younger listeners, dial up internet worked through your landline phone.
9:52
[SPEAKER_01]: You would connect your computer to a modem, which would dial your internet provider just like making a phone call.
9:59
[SPEAKER_01]: While you were online, the phone line was completely tied up, so if someone picked up the phone, you'd hear this awful, screeching noise that I can still hear in my head, or you'd get disconnected entirely.
10:10
[SPEAKER_01]: You couldn't use the phone in internet at the same time unless you had a second line.
10:15
[SPEAKER_01]: In some instances, a call coming through might kick you off the internet.
10:20
[SPEAKER_01]: I know that something I used to experience.
10:23
[SPEAKER_01]: And in this case, the timing and circumstances worked out in a way, such that Alyssa and Renardo were on the computer and a phone call was not able to ring and come through, but a voice message was left on their answering machine.
10:38
[SPEAKER_01]: When they noticed it a short while later, they estimated this timeline to be no more than 30 minutes.
10:43
[SPEAKER_01]: They played it and were disturbed by what they heard.
10:46
[SPEAKER_01]: It was their best friend Jennifer Clemings, and she seemed to be secretly recording an intense exchange between herself and a man in her home.
10:57
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll get into more of what we said in a minute, but when Alyssa and Renardo hear this exchange, they immediately call 911, and they rush over to her house.
11:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Lieutenant Rod Bryant was a rookie detective at the time, and he's actually been part of this investigative team for Jennifer Clemmings since the beginning.
11:17
[SPEAKER_01]: He stated that when he walked into the first floor of Jennifer's home everything was orderly and undisturbed.
11:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Her purse was sitting on a chair in the living room.
11:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Her kitchen was all cleaned up with dishes put away.
11:29
[SPEAKER_01]: But as responders made their way up the stairs the first signs of trouble appeared.
11:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Bloody streaks on the wall and on the light switches, and then walking into Jennifer's room they stumbled into a nightmare.
11:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Jennifer was bound, covered in blood and stab wounds, and it was clear to those first responders that they were already too late.
12:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Just as a quick heads-up, this next part is where I'll discuss a bit more about the graphic nature of how she was found.
12:10
[SPEAKER_01]: And I also just want to take a moment to acknowledge how painful this must be for Alyssa and Renardo.
12:16
[SPEAKER_01]: They are not at fault here at all, but they've had to carry this burden with them of not being able to pick up the phone when she called.
12:25
[SPEAKER_01]: My heart just breaks for them, and I'm sending them love not only for that guilt that they carry, but the trauma of having to hear this message in real time.
12:35
[SPEAKER_01]: According to Lieutenant Rod Bryant, Jennifer was stabbed multiple times.
12:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Her feet were bound, and her shirt was still on, but somewhat pressed up.
12:45
[SPEAKER_01]: In one of the crime scene photos, it appears that her shirt even talks up in a way around her bra because of the angle the knife had stabbed her, so it just this bunched up appearance.
12:56
[SPEAKER_01]: I couldn't find any specifics in the source material if the bottom half of her clothing had been removed from the waist down but Lieutenant Bryant did say that she had been sexually assaulted so that does steer me in that direction.
13:08
[SPEAKER_01]: He also said that they were unable to recover any DNA related to that sexual assault.
13:17
[SPEAKER_01]: The murder weapon was a bunch of different knives from Jennifer's own kitchen, and this is where it gets bizarre.
13:24
[SPEAKER_01]: She didn't have the fanciest set of knives, whoever did this to her broke the knives in the process of stabbing her.
13:31
[SPEAKER_01]: And each time the killer broke a knife, he must have returned back downstairs to retrieve another one and use that.
13:38
[SPEAKER_01]: And he kept grabbing the same knife.
13:40
[SPEAKER_01]: He kept grabbing the smaller steak knives versus getting a bigger knife.
13:45
[SPEAKER_01]: And then, when he would break the knives, he sort of stacked them in a way that investigators would refer to as a signature behavior.
13:53
[SPEAKER_01]: The type of behavior you might see repeated by a serial offender.
13:57
[SPEAKER_01]: He had stabbed Jennifer through her blouse and put those knives just laid them on her.
14:07
[SPEAKER_01]: To conceptualize how this crime took place, and who might have been the perpetrator, we have to revisit that voice message left on the answering machine.
14:15
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no publicly available recording of the voice message for me to be able to insert parts of it into this episode, and to be honest, I don't know that I would even if it was available.
14:28
[SPEAKER_01]: You can listen to parts of it on the oxygen channels, DNA of murder with Paul Holes, Season 1 Episode 7.
14:35
[SPEAKER_01]: There's something really ethically blurry I feel like about including audio of someone's last moments, and I'm never about sharing those types of things unless there is a very clear purpose.
14:46
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's two I could think of, one to determine what Jennifer was conveying and how that might lead us to information about what happened and who killed her.
14:54
[SPEAKER_01]: And two, if this gave any information about who her killer was, could someone recognize his voice
15:05
[SPEAKER_01]: And I will say the DNA of murder episode did use the audio for that purpose and they had some great takeaways that I'll share.
15:12
[SPEAKER_01]: But even in that episode, it's very hard to understand without it being subtitled.
15:19
[SPEAKER_01]: And so given the fact that there isn't a publicly available sound bite and it's hard to understand, I'll give the best description in transcript that I can.
15:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Even though the DNA of murder episode and a couple of other new sources share it, there's nothing that has just a single uninterrupted audio of it from start to finish, so just be aware this is going to be kind of in bits and pieces.
15:44
[SPEAKER_01]: The voice message starts out with the sound of her phone dropping on the floor.
15:48
[SPEAKER_01]: And it cuts into a man speaking, saying something along the lines of, I want my money.
15:54
[SPEAKER_01]: So that piece is a little muffled.
15:56
[SPEAKER_01]: You can hear something about money.
15:57
[SPEAKER_01]: And then she says, OK, very much like that.
16:01
[SPEAKER_01]: And you can hear him say, I take my money.
16:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Why are you playing me?
16:05
[SPEAKER_01]: And she says, I'm not playing you.
16:07
[SPEAKER_01]: And he says, Get on the floor.
16:10
[SPEAKER_01]: And then she very quickly says, I don't told you, I forgot, I apologize, and then he repeats, get down on the floor.
16:17
[SPEAKER_01]: At this point her demeanor is very much that of trying to talk down an angry person.
16:23
[SPEAKER_01]: You can still hear the fear in her voice, but she is trying to remain calm in reason with him.
16:28
[SPEAKER_01]: At another point, you even hear her validate him.
16:31
[SPEAKER_01]: You want your money.
16:32
[SPEAKER_01]: And she's kind of giving that impression that I'll give him his money and this will get cleared up and he can leave.
16:39
[SPEAKER_01]: But around this time, things start to escalate.
16:42
[SPEAKER_01]: The man says, just get down on the floor.
16:45
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to hurt you.
16:46
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to teach you a little something.
16:47
[SPEAKER_01]: And she says, okay, okay.
16:50
[SPEAKER_01]: And he says, just sit down and do what I ask you and you won't get hurt.
16:54
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's when she starts to get into talking about his money.
16:56
[SPEAKER_01]: She says, do you want your money?
16:58
[SPEAKER_01]: And he says, just get down the floor.
16:59
[SPEAKER_01]: I won't hurt you.
17:00
[SPEAKER_01]: And she says, do you want your money?
17:01
[SPEAKER_01]: And then he gets angry and says, do you think it's a game?
17:05
[SPEAKER_01]: And she says, no, I don't think it's a game.
17:07
[SPEAKER_01]: And he said, sit down like I asked you.
17:10
[SPEAKER_01]: And then from there, his tone shifts even further.
17:14
[SPEAKER_01]: It gets very icy.
17:15
[SPEAKER_01]: And he says, lay down on the floor, you want me to hurt you, you cannot fight.
17:21
[SPEAKER_01]: And Jennifer tries one more time to get his attention to snap him out of whatever mode he's in, and she says, listen, listen to me.
17:28
[SPEAKER_01]: And the offender says, no, you're going to listen to me.
17:33
[SPEAKER_01]: And then he asks, feel close to death, and she starts to get a more panic tone and says, why are you doing this?
17:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Then towards the very end of the recording, he gets into clearly what's about to be the sexual assault.
17:48
[SPEAKER_01]: He implies that he's going to assault her.
17:50
[SPEAKER_01]: She says, don't fuss, okay, and then he says, put your hands behind your back.
17:56
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is kind of the moment that the one moment she really does try to defy him verbally.
18:01
[SPEAKER_01]: She says, I'm going to leave them.
18:02
[SPEAKER_01]: And then he quickly says, do what I asked, do what I say.
18:05
[SPEAKER_01]: And she says, okay, and he says, put your hands behind your back.
18:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Do what I said, and you don't get hurt.
18:12
[SPEAKER_01]: And then he says, all stick my **** in you is what I'll do, then you owe me.
18:18
[SPEAKER_01]: The message ends shortly after this with mainly just the sound of her praying, which is heartbreaking.
18:27
[SPEAKER_01]: There's one other little clip I heard, but I'm not sure where within the message it occurred, but you hear kind of this little whisper like sound out of her and you can't make it out at all.
18:38
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you hear him saying something along the lines of what's all that talking?
18:42
[SPEAKER_01]: And so please had a thought that maybe she had tried to whisper her killer's name.
18:46
[SPEAKER_01]: They sent it out to the FBI to evaluate.
18:49
[SPEAKER_01]: They actually also sent it over to the forensic tech team at Georgia Tech.
18:54
[SPEAKER_01]: And nobody could make out a name or anything she said.
18:58
[SPEAKER_01]: So this was completely a dead end.
19:02
[SPEAKER_01]: But going back to the voice message, there is a lot to unpack with it.
19:06
[SPEAKER_01]: First, let's talk about why she called her friends in the first place and why not 911 and how this all transpired.
19:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Jennifer's house had no signs of force entry.
19:16
[SPEAKER_01]: If you listen to my podcast regularly, you know a soapbox belief of mine is that having no sign of force entry does not automatically equate to knowing the person despite that always being the reflexive takeaway.
19:28
[SPEAKER_01]: There are a million reasons why someone might open the door for someone, and then that's all it takes because if a person then rushes the door open, brandishes a weapon, tricks their way in, they've now made entry into the house with no sign of tampering with a lock or kicking an door or breaking a window.
19:45
[SPEAKER_01]: But in this case, because of how the exchange goes that we hear later, we do get this sense in this case that she at least knows this person in some capacity.
19:57
[SPEAKER_01]: We know that the downstairs area is pretty pristine, and so it doesn't appear that a struggle took place here.
20:03
[SPEAKER_01]: But then she heads up to the bedroom, and this is where the conversation took place, at the time Jennifer began calling her friends, and where the sexual assault and murder would take place.
20:13
[SPEAKER_01]: So why her friends in not 911?
20:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Well for my listeners who remember having a portable landline phone, there was a button on it that was a redow button.
20:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Rather than having to hit multiple buttons and key in someone's full phone number, or even dial out 911, you could push one button, and it would just call the last person you talked to.
20:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Presumably, Jennifer may have sensed that whatever interaction was happening when he first made entry into the ground floor was not going well and she was uncomfortable.
20:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe she went upstairs to get money out of her bedroom and get the phone and then he and the meantime has grabbed the knife from the kitchen and branched it and in calling her friends she's hoping to alert them to what is happening so she could get help.
20:57
[SPEAKER_01]: In that quick moment from him getting that knife and brandishing it, that's when the call goes through to their answering machine and you can hear her drop the phone and immediately shift into her de-escalation language.
21:08
[SPEAKER_01]: I can say now, in listening to it several times, she definitely starts in that calmer de-escalation mode and by the end you can tell she realizes she's in a lot more trouble than she first thought.
21:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Law Enforcement has had several experts weigh in on this recording and they have analyzed it forensically for years.
21:27
[SPEAKER_01]: On the episode of DNA of Murder with Paul Holes, he has a forensic linguist named Dr. Betsy Barry, way in and listen, and analyzed this voice recording to figure out what linguistic clues she can obtain.
21:39
[SPEAKER_01]: And going into it, he doesn't give her any information about the crime of the circumstances.
21:45
[SPEAKER_01]: and she has some really interesting observations.
21:48
[SPEAKER_01]: She discussed how he doesn't say give me your money, he repeatedly calls it his money, and Jennifer also refers to it as his money.
21:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Paul holds talked about how this sort of does imply that sometime prior to this, there was some sort of financial exchange between these two because if he was re-enting and she didn't know him any money, she might say something like, I can get you some money or I have my money or something like that but she keeps calling it his money.
22:14
[SPEAKER_01]: I tend to agree with that, but I think it's also worth noting that she was saying it in a way that was validating him kind of like, I hear you, you want your money, which is a pretty common de-escalation technique, and doesn't necessarily mean she was involved in the narrative, it could just mean she's playing along with his reality as a self-preservation technique.
22:35
[SPEAKER_01]: And we know that Jennifer is a highly extroverted people person who is skilled in all things
22:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Dr. Barry also pointed out how he said, why are you playing me, which is telling because he's sort of placing himself as the victim of the situation.
22:51
[SPEAKER_01]: When he's clearly in a position of power in this current dynamic, she's the victim here.
22:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Another part, Dr. Barry Hondinon, was his repeated use of, if you do XYZ, you won't get hurt or I'm not going to hurt you.
23:05
[SPEAKER_01]: And we see that a lot because he's intentionally minimizing the risk in his actions so
23:11
[SPEAKER_01]: He increases his chances that she complies.
23:15
[SPEAKER_01]: In the beginning of the exchange, it's all about I just want my money and then as it becomes clear he intends to rape her.
23:21
[SPEAKER_01]: He minimizes that and treats it as, that's all I want.
23:25
[SPEAKER_01]: And implies it's just sort of this transactional exchange and that after that, she will be safe.
23:31
[SPEAKER_01]: But of course we know that's not how it goes.
23:33
[SPEAKER_01]: We know that he was lying and that ultimately he was there to sexually assault and kill her.
23:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Paul holes shared in the episode that this is a common tactic for people to gain entry or control in this situation where they intend to actually assault or kill the victim.
23:48
[SPEAKER_01]: And they gain that control by focusing on it being a robbery or something else because that lets the guard down of the person and make them think if I just cooperate then this person will let me go.
23:59
[SPEAKER_01]: They're here for this other reason.
24:02
[SPEAKER_01]: And that gets the person to comply and then it's easier to go about doing what you actually came there to do.
24:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Dr. Barry ultimately believes that the man on the recording was an African-American man between the ages of 18 to 45 and that he was from the south.
24:17
[SPEAKER_01]: He can almost hear a bit of a regional dialect in there, but she and the lead investigator just sort of generalize it as a southern man.
24:24
[SPEAKER_01]: In the end, the consensus was that this was a financial transaction, and that that piece may have been used as a ruse to gain entry for discussion.
24:34
[SPEAKER_01]: But that ultimately, the money was very, very secondary to the primary motive of sexual assault.
24:40
[SPEAKER_01]: One final and maybe one of the most chilling conclusions Dr. Barry had from the recording with that, she felt the phrases the suspect used seem scripted and part of a game he was playing and that he was having her play his game by his rules and that he had used the script before.
25:00
[SPEAKER_01]: A little later in the episode, I'll discuss some cases that could be connected to Jennifer's, but first let's take what we know about the crime so far and see who in Jennifer's circle may be connected.
25:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Jennifer's friends and family couldn't think of anybody who would want to hurt her.
25:26
[SPEAKER_01]: She was one of those people who had an infectious spirit.
25:29
[SPEAKER_01]: She dated, but not a ton, according to what investigators found out, and she was really just focused on her business.
25:37
[SPEAKER_01]: So then they had to look into who might she have had a financial transaction with.
25:41
[SPEAKER_01]: As it turns out, Jennifer did hire day labor sometimes for projects in or around her house.
25:48
[SPEAKER_01]: She would hire people from her church, I guess her church sort of capped a bunch of names on hand of people who were looking for work, and she would also take people from places like Home Depot.
25:58
[SPEAKER_01]: This felt like a really viable lead to investigators because maybe Jennifer was supposed to pay somebody for work she had done, so police tracked some of these people down, but none of them panned out as suspects.
26:11
[SPEAKER_01]: They can't rule that out completely, but so far that has not produced any names.
26:17
[SPEAKER_01]: And when they played the audio file to friends and family, and people in her church and people around and said does this name sound like anybody familiar to you, nobody recognized
26:30
[SPEAKER_01]: When Jennifer's best friends Alyssa and Renardo were interviewed, Renardo talked about the MLM slash Drexdale's model of Jennifer's business.
26:38
[SPEAKER_01]: I shared earlier that in order to maintain your rank and its attached commissions, you needed to have you in your downline purchase a certain amount of wholesale inventory.
26:47
[SPEAKER_01]: And Renardo speculated that maybe she had borrowed money from someone to buy bulk inventory to hit a threshold needed for her business.
26:55
[SPEAKER_01]: And when asked, would she have told you guys about that?
26:58
[SPEAKER_01]: Renardo said, uh, not me because I would have told her that all of that was a bad idea and she knew I didn't support that.
27:05
[SPEAKER_01]: But Alyssa said she may have mentioned it to her and she hadn't.
27:08
[SPEAKER_01]: So if this was this scenario, she was definitely keeping it a secret.
27:14
[SPEAKER_01]: They were asked, did she have people in her life?
27:16
[SPEAKER_01]: She could have gone to to ask for money.
27:17
[SPEAKER_01]: And say, it's not even to do with Mary Kay or her business.
27:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe she just did have a different financial need.
27:21
[SPEAKER_01]: She needed money for something.
27:23
[SPEAKER_01]: And the answer is yes.
27:24
[SPEAKER_01]: She did date people with a lot of money.
27:26
[SPEAKER_01]: They even talked about a guy.
27:28
[SPEAKER_01]: And they weren't clear if she dated them or not, but definitely hung around with them.
27:30
[SPEAKER_01]: And he had a yellow Lamborghini, which you don't see every day.
27:35
[SPEAKER_01]: This is all just speculation about who she may have had a financial transaction with.
27:40
[SPEAKER_01]: We have no idea if she was struggling to maintain things with her business.
27:43
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't know if she had another expense in her life.
27:45
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't know about.
27:46
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just a possibility to explore.
27:49
[SPEAKER_01]: One thing I think is worth noting is that in that voice exchange, Jennifer implies that she would get him his money and that's almost as if she had it on hand.
28:00
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that leads me to believe that this was not some huge amount of money.
28:04
[SPEAKER_01]: People don't typically have thousands of dollars just sitting around their house.
28:07
[SPEAKER_01]: So maybe a couple hundred at most if not something as minimal as 2030 bucks.
28:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe she was out one night.
28:14
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean we know she was single and social, so maybe she's out one night and can't find her card or cash or something and a man she meets picks up the tab and says, don't worry about it, you can just pay me back.
28:24
[SPEAKER_01]: That could be a bar tab for all we know, and that's what's constituting this exchange.
28:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Of course, I'm just using that as an example.
28:31
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no evidence that this specific exchange happened, but it's something that could have.
28:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Taking this break to quickly say, thank you so much for listening to this week's episode so far.
28:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't forget to leave the show a 5 star review wherever you get your podcasts and follow me on social media.
28:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Especially Instagram where I post about each episode with pictures to tie it all together and give information about the new projects I'm working on.
29:04
[SPEAKER_01]: All of your support helps me reach new audiences.
29:07
[SPEAKER_01]: And don't forget if you have case suggestions, please email them to me at SimplerTimeCrimePod at gmail.com.
29:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Now back to the show.
29:24
[SPEAKER_01]: As investigators were working the case early on, they couldn't help but be drawn to a nearby case that happened just six weeks earlier in December of 2002, and that was the murder of Tamika Taylor.
29:35
[SPEAKER_01]: Tamika was just 27 years old and also super-career oriented.
29:42
[SPEAKER_01]: She was a rising star in the mortgage banking world in Atlanta and had just purchased a beautiful home in Lithonia, Georgia.
29:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Tmiko was very security conscious.
29:52
[SPEAKER_01]: She had installed in a alarm on her house that she kept armed at all times because she lived alone.
29:58
[SPEAKER_01]: She was dating a lot, she was single and successful, and just enjoying herself.
30:03
[SPEAKER_01]: And she held a high standard for men she would consider dating.
30:06
[SPEAKER_01]: They had to be financially independent and responsible.
30:09
[SPEAKER_01]: She even wanted them to have a credit score of over 700.
30:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Tamika was tall, so she liked a taller man, a bigger man, someone that was taller than her, so she definitely had a type.
30:21
[SPEAKER_01]: And she wanted men that had aligned aspirations and goals with her.
30:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Because of Tamika being very successful in social, she ran with an elite crowd in Atlanta, and she was often in the company of professional athletes and local celebrities.
30:37
[SPEAKER_01]: On December 5, 2002, Tamiko was supposed to attend a party for a well-known radio personality in the area.
30:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Her alarm system in financial record showed that she left her house that day after lunch and did some shopping.
30:50
[SPEAKER_01]: She went to Victoria's Secret a little after 3pm and made a purchase and then she came back home.
30:56
[SPEAKER_01]: She called the party host at around 5pm to ask if she could bring a guest, which he said was okay.
31:03
[SPEAKER_01]: And then less than an hour later, Tamika's security system was disarmed.
31:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Tamika never made it to the party that night.
31:11
[SPEAKER_01]: The following morning, she was found dead inside her home.
31:15
[SPEAKER_01]: There were no signs of forced entry and records showed that her alarm system had been disarmed the evening before and never reset.
31:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Inside her bedroom, Tamiko was found bound and nude.
31:27
[SPEAKER_01]: She had been stabbed dozens of times, including wounds to her face, and an attack so brutal is stunned investigators.
31:35
[SPEAKER_01]: The weapon was a knife taken from her own kitchen.
31:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Evidence at the scene also confirmed that she had been sexually assaulted.
31:42
[SPEAKER_01]: The crime scene was bizarre and disturbing.
31:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Like Jennifer's, there was blood everywhere.
31:49
[SPEAKER_01]: There were two red plastic cups on either side of the bed.
31:53
[SPEAKER_01]: On the side you may presume, was to me because typical side just sleep on, the cup was still there.
31:59
[SPEAKER_01]: And the reason I say it was probably her side is because it had a charging block in alarm clock, lots of miscellaneous items that led me to believe it was her nice stand.
32:08
[SPEAKER_01]: The other one was mostly empty and the red cup that had likely been sitting on it was knocked over next to it.
32:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Next to that cup was laundry detergent and it seemed like the killer had brought this upstairs to try to clean up with it.
32:23
[SPEAKER_01]: On the bed was a used condom right out in plain sight.
32:26
[SPEAKER_01]: And then in her sock drawer, there was a blood soaked sock.
32:31
[SPEAKER_01]: And police wondered if the perpetrator used this sock like a glove.
32:34
[SPEAKER_01]: There were other spots in the room, such as a pile of papers on the floor, that looked like they had been touched, but they had blood stains on them that looked like the scene could have been made from someone wearing something over their hands.
32:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Also just have no, this is never talked about in any of the source material, but when I was looking at the crime scene photos, there's also seeming like two cups on her actual dresser as well, the same dresser that had the bloodstained sock in it, but rather than them being red solo cups, which were what we're found on our nightstands, these were like drink glasses.
33:08
[SPEAKER_01]: So looked like they still had some sort of...
33:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe like alcoholic beverage with coke, it just kind of looked like alcoholic drink beverages.
33:17
[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know what came of those, but they were in the picture.
33:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Analyzing that crime scene, authorities noticed the two cups in the use condom and wondered, had she had someone over romantically who they had consensual sex?
33:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe this was the person she was intending to bring to the party that night, and then that person turned on her and brutally murdered her.
33:38
[SPEAKER_01]: What's odd about that is that the killer tried to clean up some evidence, so why would they clean up that evidence but leave a condom with their DNA on it out in plain view?
33:48
[SPEAKER_01]: This made investigators consider that maybe she had a consensual sexual partner earlier in that day, that the condom wasn't from the killer and that the killer and the consensual sex partner were not one in the same.
34:01
[SPEAKER_01]: In that scenario, she could have even had an overnight guest tonight before, had sex that morning, did those errands, came home, and then let her kill her in that evening.
34:10
[SPEAKER_01]: That theory is further solidified by the fact that the DNA profile was loaded into Codes and it didn't get any hits.
34:18
[SPEAKER_01]: So either the person who had sex with her and use that condom is not a killer in just a sex partner, or it is the killer, but they never committed a crime they were caught for before after that.
34:30
[SPEAKER_01]: But if it was just an innocent sex partner, that person has never come forward to explain to authorities that they were with her earlier that day.
34:37
[SPEAKER_01]: And whoever her guest was going to be for the party that night never came forward either.
34:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Despite Tamika's case having physical evidence, no suspects were identified and the case went cold.
34:52
[SPEAKER_01]: So let's compare the case to Jennifer's.
34:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Both women were young, beautiful, and successful, black professionals.
35:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Tamika was 27 and Jennifer was 32.
35:02
[SPEAKER_01]: They were single, had no children, and were deeply career driven, moving in elite professional circles.
35:11
[SPEAKER_01]: While investigators have never found any direct overlap between them, personally or professionally, the similarities in their lives and deaths are striking.
35:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Both lived alone in single family homes just a few miles apart and were murdered just six weeks apart.
35:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Both were sexually assaulted and brutally stabbed in the early evening hours.
35:32
[SPEAKER_01]: And in both cases, the killer use knives taken from their own kitchens, indicating the attacker came unarmed and likely planned to use what was available inside the home.
35:42
[SPEAKER_01]: But despite all of this, the lead investigator, Lieutenant Rod Bryant, has gone back and forth on if the two cases are connected or not.
35:50
[SPEAKER_01]: He has acknowledged the nearly identical methodologies in victim profiles, but has also said he thinks they're looking for two separate killers, and he can't fully give away why he thinks that, but I know he has access to way more information than I do, so the jury still out on that one.
36:18
[SPEAKER_01]: For the last part of this episode, I want to take some time to discuss one potential suspect whose name came up after he was arrested for a series of gruesome crimes in a few years after the murder of Jennifer and Tamika.
36:31
[SPEAKER_01]: The man's name is Charles Lendell Carter.
36:36
[SPEAKER_01]: He was a divorced man in his 40s who worked as a chef in many local establishments.
36:42
[SPEAKER_01]: He was tall, well over six feet tall, and over 250 pounds, and he seemed to have sort of a juggle and high-type personality.
36:52
[SPEAKER_01]: One of his ex-girlfriends described him as very loving and nurturing and not a mean bone in his body, and another talked about him having a dark side.
37:00
[SPEAKER_01]: He dated a lot and was very much out in the club in bar scene and would pick up in date many different women, some who he'd get very obsessed with and didn't take well to being broken up with.
37:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Behind what people saw of Charles Carter on the surface, he was committing horrible crimes without people knowing, and his undoing would be the death of 40-year-old Lisa Rosenthal in 2006.
37:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Lisa had moved to the Elforetta, Georgia area after leaving her marriage in Long Island, and she had relocated with her boys.
37:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Her 11-year-old son returned home from school one day and found his mother horrifically murdered just inside the doorway.
37:40
[SPEAKER_01]: She had been stabbed multiple times, including in her face.
37:45
[SPEAKER_01]: A couple of days after the murder, the boys were taken back through the town home to see if they noticed anything of theirs or their mothers that was missing.
37:54
[SPEAKER_01]: And they didn't see anything in the main parts of the home, but when they got to their bedroom, they said, actually yes, they noticed that their gaming consoles were missing, along with some of their Nintendo games, for their GameCube, and their Ace Ventura Pet Detective DVD.
38:12
[SPEAKER_01]: In interviewing those closest to Lisa, they spoke to the family and then a really close friend of hers.
38:18
[SPEAKER_01]: And they were trying to get a sense of what men may have known Lisa, including romantic partners of the friends.
38:23
[SPEAKER_01]: They wanted to see who might have that familiarity with Lisa, where she'd open the door for them.
38:28
[SPEAKER_01]: And this friend dropped a bomb gel.
38:31
[SPEAKER_01]: She had recently broken up with her boyfriend, and by she, I mean, the friend broke up with her boyfriend, not Lisa.
38:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Her boyfriend's name was Charles Carter, and she broke up with him because he had stolen her young sons gaming console and video games.
38:47
[SPEAKER_01]: With this knowledge, cops went to pawn shops and wouldn't you know, Charles Carter had ponded games and DVDs, including Ace Ventura, Pat Detective, and he had signed their receipts with his name just two weeks after Lisa's murder.
39:02
[SPEAKER_01]: The items were sold at the pawn shop and they had Carter's fingerprint on them.
39:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Carter was arrested and interrogated, and police presented a mountain of evidence they had against him.
39:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Still, he wouldn't confess in the interrogation room.
39:17
[SPEAKER_01]: But on the way to the county jail, Carter began bearing his soul to the driving police officer, who pushed record on a device in the front seat.
39:25
[SPEAKER_01]: He started to say that nobody had any idea what it was like to be in his head, how he lived in fear of himself all the time living with his mother, scared he was going to lose control and murder his own mother, and then he said, I did horrible horrible things.
39:41
[SPEAKER_01]: I might be some type of sick mother effing serial killer.
39:46
[SPEAKER_01]: This was a shock.
39:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Police realized he had not only committed this crime, he was responsible for others.
39:55
[SPEAKER_01]: And when they submitted his DNA into Cotus, they got two more hits.
39:59
[SPEAKER_01]: First, for the 2005 murder of Angela Thayer Green.
40:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Angela was a mother of six who was sexually assaulted and strangled while her kids were outside of the home.
40:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Carter had previously dated someone in Angela's social circle and had familiar with her home, its layout, and her schedule.
40:20
[SPEAKER_01]: She lived in Norcross, Georgia, which is the same town Carter resided in at that time.
40:24
[SPEAKER_01]: He was then connected to the 2004 murder of a Pral Allen.
40:31
[SPEAKER_01]: A Pral and Carter had previously dated very casually and he said he used to take
40:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Carter received three life sentences for all these crimes and is currently still incarcerated and will be for the rest of his life.
40:49
[SPEAKER_01]: But authorities wondered, could these be connected to Jennifer and or to Mika's cases?
40:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Of the three confirmed Carter victims, two were black and one was white.
41:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Two were stabbed, and I'm unclear if it was knives found within the home or not.
41:06
[SPEAKER_01]: That could be important.
41:08
[SPEAKER_01]: One was strangled.
41:10
[SPEAKER_01]: These three women were working-class women.
41:12
[SPEAKER_01]: They didn't necessarily run in the same types of social circles that Jennifer or Tamikid did, and they were also all mothers whose children were not at the home at the time of the crimes.
41:22
[SPEAKER_01]: They also all occurred in apartment or town home buildings with connected units.
41:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Jennifer and Tamika did not have children, and they lived in standalone single-family homes, both in busy subdivisions.
41:36
[SPEAKER_01]: When we look at Tamika's case, Carter wouldn't fit the profile of a man who would meet her dating criteria.
41:42
[SPEAKER_01]: He was in and out of employment in the restaurant industry, and lived with his mother in a long-term stay hotel.
41:49
[SPEAKER_01]: He was pawning things to get by, so if he was responsible for Tamika's death, he would have had to show up with a ruse.
41:58
[SPEAKER_01]: And coming back to the hole, known to the victim part, Carter knew all three of his verified victims.
42:03
[SPEAKER_01]: So we'd have to figure out if he was involved with Tamika or Jennifer's case, how did he know them?
42:09
[SPEAKER_01]: And there is a thought on that.
42:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Jennifer's sister told Paul Hulls on the show DNA of murder that Jennifer used to go to Jamaican Club sometimes.
42:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Remember she's from Jamaica originally.
42:20
[SPEAKER_01]: And Charles Carter talked about going and taking a Pral Allen to Jamaican clubs.
42:25
[SPEAKER_01]: so did she encounter him there.
42:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Going back to my little scenario I talked about earlier, what if she had a small fling with Carter or danced with him a few nights at the club?
42:35
[SPEAKER_01]: He picked up the tab, and that constituted to him what she owed him.
42:40
[SPEAKER_01]: She wouldn't necessarily be afraid to open the door to him, and it would be a small enough amount of money that if he led with that, she probably would have that amount of money on hand at her home.
42:49
[SPEAKER_01]: but having him show up randomly, may have gotten her intuition peaked enough that she hit the redal button on her phone.
42:56
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't know, it's just a possible scenario.
43:00
[SPEAKER_01]: What we do know is that the Paul Holes show aired in 2020, and I should just clarify this far into the episode while we're at it that Paul Holes is a former coldcase investigator who gained fame working the Golden State Killer case.
43:13
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, in this TV show, he would work with cold-cased detectives to help reevaluate their evidence for motor cases to see what they might have to work with now with present-day DNA advancements.
43:25
[SPEAKER_01]: In the case of Jennifer Clemings, originally you'll remember there was no DNA from the sexual assault.
43:31
[SPEAKER_01]: But police had preserved evidence of her shirt in the knives, and Paul thought given that these were cheap knives, and that they were breaking during the assault, maybe the killer cut himself in the process, and there could be trace DNA evidence on those knives.
43:45
[SPEAKER_01]: In addition, maybe there was some significant forensic evidence on her blouse.
43:50
[SPEAKER_01]: So, that was sent for DNA testing, and at the end of the episode, it was revealed that it did produce a DNA profile that was suitable for direct comparison DNA testing.
44:02
[SPEAKER_01]: In Tamika's case, they also had some success because they wanted to pivot away from the condom that wasn't producing these suspects, and that likely wouldn't hold up in court even if they found someone because the defense could just say, yeah, they had consensual sex.
44:15
[SPEAKER_01]: That's why there was a condom, and that's why it was left out.
44:18
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's kind of hard to talk your way out of DNA being on the inside of this bloody sock, so they tested that and they did find a very low level male profile that is suitable again for direct comparison DNA testing.
44:34
[SPEAKER_01]: And then they further said at the end of the episode that de Cobb County was looking to compare Carter's DNA to the DNA profiles they had for the evidence found at the women's crime scenes.
44:45
[SPEAKER_01]: That sounded promising, but here we are in 2025, and there's been no information on a hit.
44:52
[SPEAKER_01]: So I've got to believe that in doing the direct comparison, it wasn't Carter, but they also haven't come right out and said that, so I don't know for sure.
45:00
[SPEAKER_01]: On one hand, it's exciting that they have a direct comparison now.
45:05
[SPEAKER_01]: I do wonder if they've been able to compare the two profiles and length or unlinked
45:13
[SPEAKER_01]: But while there's hope, there is one drawback.
45:16
[SPEAKER_01]: By the sounds of it, the samples, these cases have our small.
45:19
[SPEAKER_01]: And only suitable for what's called short random repeat testing or STR testing.
45:25
[SPEAKER_01]: And bear with me because I'm not an expert, but with STR testing, this uses a very small portion of the DNA, typically 13 to 20 specific markers for the FBS code system.
45:36
[SPEAKER_01]: They have it expanded out to 20 now.
45:38
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's useful for matching to a known suspect,
45:43
[SPEAKER_01]: relative or to search law enforcement databases.
45:47
[SPEAKER_01]: But unfortunately, it would not be viable for genetic or forensic genealogy because that uses S&P profiling, S&P stands for single nucleotide polymorphisms, and that analyzes hundreds of thousands of S&Ps across the genome.
46:05
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what companies like Judmatch or Family Tree DNA use to build family trees and identify distant relatives.
46:11
[SPEAKER_01]: in order to do that type of testing at least right now in 2025 you need a large robust DNA sample.
46:18
[SPEAKER_01]: So right now it doesn't appear that that's an option but we know technology changes constantly and we may just be weeks months or any short amount of period away from having a way to further test the DNA that they do have.
46:34
[SPEAKER_01]: but in the meantime, that's where things stand.
46:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Investigators believe it's possible that whoever killed Jennifer told somebody about the crime.
46:41
[SPEAKER_01]: I know I've mentioned in another episode, sometimes partners will come forward years later, one who they might have been in a relationship with the suspect at the time and they've said, yeah, we got in a fight and he said, all kill you like I did so and so and either they didn't take it seriously at the time or they were too afraid.
46:57
[SPEAKER_01]: It's possible that Jennifer Clumming's murder has been violent in their relationships.
47:03
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's not the only option.
47:04
[SPEAKER_01]: It's possible that Jennifer's killer fled the alien area after the crime.
47:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe there's an unsolved case in your stator area that sounds a lot like this case.
47:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Turn that lead over to investigators.
47:15
[SPEAKER_01]: They are very motivated to solve this crime.
47:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Not only Jennifer's ball, so to me, because, whether or not they're related.
47:21
[SPEAKER_01]: And the great thing is, there is hope because if they have a viable suspect, they can do that direct comparison.
47:30
[SPEAKER_01]: So, if you have any information on the murders of Jennifer Clumming's or to Mika Taylor, please contact the GBI TIP line at 1-800-597-8477.
47:39
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're not a phone call person, you can also submit tips through their website just log on and type in GBI.GA.gov and as soon as you search a scroll down, you'll see where you can click the online tip form.
47:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Jennifer's family is still trying desperately to find her killer.
47:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Her loved ones have an Instagram page and her honor which all link on my Instagram page.
48:03
[SPEAKER_01]: I wanted to just do what I could to put the information out there in front of a new audience and make sure her case was heard by new people.
48:11
[SPEAKER_01]: So please share this episode and her case.
48:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Jennifer Clemmings was a beautiful, driven woman who brought joy to those around her.
48:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Her loved ones deserve the truth and the closure that's been denied to them for far too long.
48:28
[SPEAKER_01]: This has been another episode of a simpler time true crime.
48:32
[SPEAKER_01]: If you appreciate the work I'm doing, please leave a five-star review wherever you listen to podcasts.
48:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Word of mouth helps me tremendously as well, so go ahead and tell your friend, wear your nail lady, or the person at the DMV, or the person in the grocery store check-out line.
48:47
[SPEAKER_01]: But seriously, as always, thank you so much for listening, and I'll be back next Monday with another episode.