Latest / Coffee People Podcast / S6:E17 - Coffee Smarter: Flat White or Long Black?

Transcript

S6:E17 - Coffee Smarter: Flat White or Long Black? · Coffee People Podcast

0:13
Hey, good morning everyone. Welcome to season 6 episode, 17
0:17
of the roast West Coast coffee podcast.
0:21
I'm Ryan Walton. This is the show where I bring
0:23
you the stories of coffee professionals entrepreneurship
0:27
and coffee education. Series simran Khalsa, the
0:30
executive director of coffee at lofty coffee and Southern
0:34
California is back for the last time.
0:36
This season to help us, get coffee smarter Siri, not only
0:40
runs the entire coffee roasting program for the lofty coffee
0:43
Empire, but also is co running the San Diego Coffee Network.
0:48
Today, we chat about some coffee drinks that many of us have
0:51
heard of, but not everyone agrees on the definition of.
0:56
I can't wait. So hustle up fill your cup.
0:59
With coffee and let's get to it. It's time to get coffee Smarter
1:03
with coffee expert, Siri simran, Khalsa, executive director of
1:08
lofty, Coffee Company. Siri simran, Khalsa coffee,
1:24
director, executive coffee director, at lofty coffee.
1:26
I can't remember which title you go by these days.
1:29
All Empire, person of lofty coffees coffee production, team,
1:35
welcome back to the roast West Coast, podcast.
1:37
Thanks for being here. Thanks for having me.
1:40
I mean I'm the lucky one here. Yeah you're sharing your
1:43
knowledge freely and willingly and I'm offering really nothing
1:45
in return. I don't even pay you Fame in
1:50
Norway. Well, that's true.
1:54
You ever go to Norway? I'll make sure.
1:55
They take care of you. If you don't know, we're talking
2:00
about listen to the last coffee smarter episode everyone, and
2:04
that will make sense to you. In that last episode we were
2:07
talking about the pumpkin. Ice cloudy cold, brew cocktail
2:12
that you guys have at lofty coffee and I was going through
2:16
your menu when I was at your Solana, Beach Shop, the other
2:19
day, which was almost too busy for me to go in, by the way.
2:24
So it gets insane. Yeah.
2:27
On the menu, you had two drinks that I don't often see on menus,
2:33
but people request a lot, I think when they come in,
2:36
especially if they come in and they've been traveling from
2:38
other places but a Black and a flat white and I'm wondering if
2:43
you wouldn't mind breaking down, what those are, and maybe a
2:47
little bit about where they come from or why people would ask for
2:50
them as far as to coffee drink. We might be more familiar with.
2:54
Yeah. So I will give you the full
2:58
rundown of what they are at lofty.
3:01
I feel like I've noticed that you know although it might have
3:07
the same name at other cafes on other menus.
3:10
They might not make it in this particular way so that is
3:14
something for folks out there, it might always be a good idea
3:17
if you're having a certain expectation of a drink asking
3:21
how its prepared and making sure it's actually what you're
3:24
expecting but I can give you a little bit of the information I
3:30
have on where those beverages came from and then I'm not and
3:36
I'll be all answer to that but it is just what?
3:40
Found and the little research I've done about those drinks.
3:43
So the first is the flat white and I'll lock you prepare that
3:47
and 8 ounce cup and the milk is going to be steamed to about 140
3:54
to 150 degrees and its textured to have just a thin layer of
4:00
foam. So it's actually prepared very
4:04
similarly, to how we would do a lot, just a regular 12-ounce
4:07
latte, and another way Way like in training when I'm training a
4:12
new Barista that's how I would maybe explain it to them as well
4:15
in the sense of preparation that every drink on our menu has a
4:20
size. We don't do a small medium
4:22
large. So if someone wanted a latte
4:25
with less milk, we would prepare them a flat white.
4:29
And the long black is going to be hot water with a double shot
4:35
of espresso poured over. And it's about 10 ounces of hot
4:39
water that we use. And so, that is how we prepare
4:43
it. And with the long black, I do
4:44
like to specify it is with the shut, the espresso shot over the
4:48
water so that you have a layer of Crema on top and that's
4:53
really for us. What what makes that drink?
4:55
What it is. So a little bit about always got
4:58
different Sorry to interrupt. Yeah how is that different than
5:03
both of these sounds similar to me to the construction of other
5:06
drinks. Hmm.
5:08
But like the long black, how would that be different from say
5:11
just like a double espresso Americano.
5:14
Yeah. Just you're talking about adding
5:17
the hot water on the top or vice versa.
5:20
So I hope that in my share here, I'm not spreading rumors.
5:25
I would I would encourage anyone if they have other information,
5:29
Ian to reach out to me because I'm curious but from my
5:33
understanding, the difference between a flogging block and
5:36
Americano is really its origin. So Americano coming from Europe
5:43
and Long Black coming from Australia or New Zealand.
5:49
I guess I think depending on who you ask, it's it's that area of
5:53
the world. To my understanding, the
5:56
Americano was born from Americans going to Europe during
6:01
the world wars and not liking espresso being too strong too
6:05
intense. And so to make it more like
6:08
American coffee, they would put water over the espresso to kind
6:12
of dilute that intensity, whereas the flat or the long
6:16
black to, my understanding comes from that New Zealand, Australia
6:22
area of the world and In my research, I haven't found any
6:28
specific coffee cafe or someone who created the drink, but it
6:33
really coming from their espresso culture, which has
6:37
really become unique and world-renowned, and you see a
6:40
lot of cafes in Europe and America kind of trying to
6:45
emulate, Australian style, espresso bars.
6:49
And with that, you have hot water with espresso on top.
6:53
And the idea with that is You do want the crema on the top
6:57
because it has those aromatic, sit has those bitter qualities
7:01
and has that oil where when you pull pour water over espresso in
7:06
like an Americano, it's going to mix in more.
7:09
We're just putting the shot on top like all that aromatic,
7:14
quality, and that oily better quality from the crema.
7:19
When you are pouring, the espresso on the top of the hot
7:22
water, does it separate a little bit that way?
7:24
Then there's there a way you should be pouring it like down
7:27
the side of the glass, or do you just dump it in?
7:29
Or is there a huge you there to make sure that it sits right?
7:33
Yeah. Out lofty.
7:35
Are we try to pour every a shot of espresso directly into the
7:40
vessel? So in this case, we would
7:42
actually pull pull it right on top of the water.
7:45
So we're not even pouring it into a glass and then pouring it
7:48
on top, we're We're pulling the espresso directly onto the water
7:52
and it just creates this beautiful Crema layer on top of
7:56
that. So you'll notice that if you
7:59
pour it from another vessel that crumbled, tends to break in a
8:05
more quick way than if you pull the shot directly on top.
8:09
Got it, I think one thing you brought up that I can kind of
8:12
address a little bit or just to mention is that some of these
8:16
Concepts refer a little bit to how people talk about coffee and
8:21
different parts of the world? Hmm.
8:23
Like a flat white is kind of another term might be like, wet
8:27
or dry. If you wanted like, a latte dry,
8:30
like with breast milk butter, then the sizing.
8:32
And, but the idea that a lot of these Concepts were happening,
8:36
simultaneously in different places in the world.
8:39
And so more than one person, might claim ownership of a
8:43
particular style of drink. And so it's hard to be emphatic
8:47
about. This is a where it came from,
8:50
and yeah, it was created. Yeah, beautifully said, very
8:54
eloquent, but completely true because yeah, it is hard to find
9:00
the exact because plenty of people have asked me this
9:03
question and I have definitely gone down and internet Rabbit
9:06
Hole of trying to Pinpoint it. And it's challenging and that's
9:12
why again if there's anyone out there in Norway or other parts
9:14
of the world that have a better answer, please let me know
9:17
because then I can the next time someone asked me because I'm
9:20
sure someone will I can be more informed just off the cuff.
9:26
Are there any particular coffee terms that you hear a lot that
9:29
people mistake or or are commonly misused?
9:34
Yeah, well in the same vein of this conversation, specifically
9:39
a lot Aki. I hear a lot of people say short
9:41
black when they want a long black, but with less water.
9:45
And in my like, let's say maybe four ounces of water, instead of
9:49
10 ounces of water. Although in my Google Rabbit
9:55
Hole, I've actually found that a short black is actually a term
9:59
for just a double shot of espresso, not espresso and
10:03
water. So I that something that it
10:07
seems like there is this underlying Lining understanding
10:10
at least that lofty. That it's just they want less
10:13
water, but I think if you were to go to a proper Australian or
10:17
New Zealand Cafe and a Spur short block, they probably just
10:20
make you espresso. So sure.
10:24
And that's why it's important to be clear.
10:27
Yeah and then another one that's classic is the macchiato A lot
10:35
of folks coming to the cafe thinking and they're going to
10:38
get like a sweet caramel a beverage.
10:41
When in fact they'll just get double shot of espresso with a
10:45
little bit of milk and foam. So that's, that's probably the
10:50
second most. Whose fault is that?
10:54
Would we say that? That's like, Tom Hanks, his
10:56
fault. She got mail, don't they lock
10:58
you out? I was in that movie, perhaps,
11:01
not in a while. It holds up.
11:04
I can tell you that. Yeah.
11:07
No I actually don't think that it does.
11:09
But before you go to the last week we're talking a little bit
11:12
about the San Diego Coffee Network that you are also
11:16
co-running. We talked about the give a berry
11:18
get a bag meetups. I also saw something else called
11:20
the lets roast competition which is I was wondering if you could
11:24
tell me what that is. It seemed like it was geared
11:27
more towards like a roasting competition and how do you go
11:31
about even setting? Something like that up or And
11:34
people involved? Yeah, I'm so happy.
11:36
You asked. It was so fun.
11:39
It was such a blast. Thank you to everyone who
11:42
participated and a huge. Congratulations to Justin from
11:46
genteel. He was the winner of the
11:48
competition but what actually sparked this idea was we had a
11:53
friend who had 150 pound bag of coffee that he wasn't using and
12:00
he didn't want to, of course, he didn't want to throw it away.
12:03
Away. But he wanted to make sure that
12:05
it was had a proper home and used.
12:09
Well, so he reached out to us and was like if I donated this
12:12
to the network like would something, would you guys be
12:16
able to use it? And so it kind of sparked the
12:18
idea of like, okay, well we have this this bag of coffee that we
12:23
could do something fun with. So I'll say the bag of coffee
12:27
lived in our storage unit for a few months while we figured out
12:30
how to execute. This event.
12:34
So how we went about, it was put in a call out to people who are
12:39
interested in competing in a roasting event and we had, you
12:45
know, the idea was that we'd split the bag up into six equal
12:49
parts and that six competitors would be able to roast the
12:55
coffee in a way that they want to present it, and how we
13:00
selected the competitors. As we just had a Brief survey.
13:05
The idea was we wanted people that hat that we're kind of.
13:09
They had maybe more than six months of experience, but you
13:13
know weren't experts in roasting.
13:15
So the range was everyone I think the poor people, who'd
13:19
been roasting, the least was, maybe roasting a year and the
13:23
most experienced was roasting two to three years.
13:26
So we, you know, we selected our competitors and we had about 15
13:33
out And so we had to narrow it down which is challenging, but I
13:36
think a part of it was definitely like giving the
13:40
opportunity to newer Roasters and then giving it to people who
13:46
had a compelling reason to compete.
13:50
And so they each got about 20 pounds of coffee and they had a
13:54
few weeks to dial it in to where they thought it was going to be
13:57
the best represent and then they submitted a sample and we had a
14:01
panel of five judges. Judges to do it.
14:07
And we did this a blind cupping where we changed, everyone's
14:12
name and two numbers and then through that change every
14:16
numbers into letters, so it was like double blind.
14:19
So there were going to be little to no bias of you know knowing
14:23
who's copies who and we held a cupping evaluated.
14:28
All the coffee's we kind of created our own copying sheet to
14:33
to Sense for this context. And from there, we were able to
14:38
select a winner and it was interesting to to cup with a
14:44
variety of different Roasters of at different levels as well,
14:48
seeing what qualities of the coffee people liked what
14:52
qualities people didn't like as much, but it was really, really
14:56
interesting and along the way we held a panel of a talking panel.
15:03
With the people who were judging, so to give the
15:07
competitors. But anyone else kind of an
15:09
insight into like our background and a space for them to ask us
15:15
questions. So hey cool.
15:17
Yeah, it was a blast and if there's ever a need for say a
15:22
judge that doesn't know anything about coffee.
15:25
I could be that unbiased judge amazing.
15:28
That's so good to know ya is just call me up.
15:31
I'll be there. Siri, thank you for coming back,
15:35
on roast West Coast, we will hopefully see you again in the
15:41
future season 7 is coming up after the holidays and I'm
15:46
looking forward to having a cup of coffee someday soon.
15:50
Thank you so much. This is a blast, it's always a
15:52
pleasure we'll talk soon. Okay, to recap for starters,
16:05
don't let series modesty fool, you.
16:07
She is a true coffee expert and someone that I trust to go to,
16:11
for coffee guidance. But that doesn't mean that more
16:14
than one thing. Can't be true.
16:17
Coffee and culture surrounding coffee has been evolving around
16:20
the world since the 15th century.
16:22
Sometimes the same ideas, originated simultaneously.
16:26
But Currently, which makes the language surrounding coffee.
16:31
Almost as complex as the taste for today.
16:34
And at lofty, the flat white is similar to a miniaturized latte.
16:38
It's espresso with a thin layer of microphone and a long black
16:42
is a double shot of espresso with hot water poured.
16:46
Over the top, it's important. The water is poured over the
16:49
top, in order to force the espresso upwards, creating a
16:52
layer of Crema the drinks signature on the top.
16:55
And for the record, a short black.
16:57
Simply a double shot of espresso.
16:59
No water at lofty coffee. Ever drink on the menu, has a
17:03
specific size because the ratios of coffee to water to milk
17:07
matter, think of it as a recipe in the same way that you might
17:10
measure out ingredients to make cookies or bake, a loaf of
17:13
bread. If you're out there ordering a
17:16
coffee drink, that has some murky Regional definitions or
17:19
differences. Help a barista out.
17:21
Be specific with what you want. It isn't rude to presume that
17:25
they may not be able to read your mind.
17:27
Mind and finally it was one Tommy Hanks who dropped the
17:31
caramel macchiato bomb into popular culture in the film.
17:35
You've Got Mail The whole purpose of places like Starbucks
17:41
is for people with no decision making ability whatsoever to
17:43
make six decisions, just to buy one cup of coffee short tall
17:48
like dark calf decaf, low-fat, nonfat Etc.
17:57
So people who don't know what the hell they're doing or who on
18:00
Earth. They are can't for only 295 get
18:03
not just a cup of coffee but an absolutely Sense of self and a
18:09
caramel macchiato tall. Decaf cappuccino coffee
18:15
cappuccino. I'm not promising that movie
18:22
holds up. Aol's instant messenger features
18:24
heavily as a plot device. Some of you may not even know
18:28
what that is, but if you want to find out, it is on Hulu right
18:32
now. Today's episode came at a good
18:34
time for me because I'm going to be dusting off my rusty, Barista
18:37
skills and working as a guest Barista for coffee cycle
18:41
roasting at Trail Fest. An annual fundraiser for the San
18:45
Diego, mountain biking Association this weekend in
18:48
Southern California. I'll link to Details about the
18:51
mountain biking Association which is a non-profit.
18:54
I personally support on roast westcoast.com which is also
18:58
where you're going to find the links to lofty coffee and the
19:01
San Diego Coffee Network. Roast westcoast.com, is also
19:05
where this shows newsletter lives online, you can listen to
19:09
the podcast, their learn more about the guests on this show,
19:12
and for paid subscribers, read the bean journal and the
19:16
upcoming Barista features. Check it out if you find Value.
19:20
Subscribe paid subscriptions are how I grow this podcast.
19:24
A lot of the coffee content on this show originates from the
19:27
few coffee industry partners that I rely on for expertise and
19:31
support. They include cafe.
19:34
Lechera steady-state coffee, roasting Camp Coffee Company,
19:37
the aforementioned coffee, cycle, roasting ignite Coffee,
19:40
Company. Soon to be open.
19:42
Maria coffee, Cape Horn coffee, importers zoom bar, coffee and
19:46
tea, most your coffee company. We are so close to the A most
19:50
cruel and anniversary event. Be sure to get your tickets on
19:53
most your coffee.com and Ascend Coffee Roasters, Aaron from a
19:58
saint just reached out to let me know that they have new cold,
20:01
brew packs, which you can take home and use to brew your own
20:04
cold brew. They look like giant tea bags,
20:06
with the coffee already, ground up and measured for you with
20:09
easy to follow instructions. On the bag to ensure your
20:12
Brewing, it correctly, the starter pack even comes with a
20:14
64 ounce glass jar de Bruin after that just pick up the
20:18
refills every bag. Makes three gallons of cold,
20:22
brew, and you can choose between light and medium roasts, I'm
20:26
looking forward to trying it myself.
20:28
Thank you for listening, and for supporting this show, this
20:32
episode of the roast West Coast coffee podcast is was has been
20:36
written produced and recorded by me Ryan Walt.
20:40
I hope this episode is found you happy healthy and with at least
20:44
enough sanity to make it through the day, always tip your
20:48
Baristas and be sure. Sure to drink a coffee.