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Plastic Pollution Research: How Microplastics Threaten Coral Reefs and What We Can Do About It · How To Protect The Ocean

• 1:00:00
  How do microplastics affect tropical
• 1:00:03
  marine systems like coral reefs,
• 1:00:06
  lionfish, or even just the shoreline?
• 1:00:09
  Sometimes you're walking along a beach
• 1:00:11
  and you look down and you see these blue
• 1:00:13
  and white and maybe green little pieces
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  that are kind of laid out under the sand
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  or maybe they're just exposed from the
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  sand along this beach.
• 1:00:21
  You're on a beautiful beach, you've got a
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  beautiful sunset going, the waves are
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  crashing in and you see these little
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  pieces. Those are microplastics. Those
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  are not part of the ocean.
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  They came in from the ocean at some point
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  and they're just laid out on the beach
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  and that can affect different types of
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  animals within marine systems.
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  So today we're going to actually discuss
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  how it affects marine ecosystems and what
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  we need to do about them and if policies
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  and beach cleanups actually help.
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  We are going to talk to Dr. Lisa
• 1:00:50
  Rodriguez, who is an associate professor
• 1:00:51
  of geography and the environment at
• 1:00:53
  Villanova University.
• 1:00:55
  She is here to talk about her research
• 1:00:57
  and her lab's research on microplastics
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  in marine tropical environments,
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  including coral reefs, including
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  lionfish, including the beaches along
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  every shoreline that she works at in
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  Puerto Rico, in Hawaii, and so forth.
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  We're going to talk all about
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  microplastics and the marine environment
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  on this episode of the How
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  to Protect the Ocean podcast.
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  Let's start the show.
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  Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another
• 1:01:22
  exciting episode of the How to Protect
• 1:01:23
  the Ocean podcast. I'm
• 1:01:24
  your host, Andrew Lewin.
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  And this is the podcast where you find
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  out what's happening with the ocean, how
• 1:01:27
  you can speak up with the ocean, what you
• 1:01:29
  can do to live for a better ocean by
• 1:01:31
  taking action on today's episode.
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  We are going to be talking about
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  microplastics in the marine environment.
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  We've heard about microplastics being in
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  the air, in the water, in
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  our bodies. It's everywhere.
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  It is something that is a huge concern
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  from a health perspective of humans and
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  from an environmental health perspective.
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  When we talk about the planet, we use
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  microplastics and single plastics more
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  and more every day beyond plastic straws.
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  Okay, we'll go beyond, although we
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  discussed it in this interview, we go
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  beyond plastic straws. We go and just
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  what connects and what traps coral reefs
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  and how it's affecting coral reefs, how
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  it affects fish like
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  lionfish, which is invasive.
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  So we're going to study those. And we
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  also look at sediment cores. We talk a
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  little bit at the end about studies to
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  come and when microplastics actually
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  started in the marine environment.
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  This is a great episode. Dr. Lisa
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  Rodriguez, a professor of geography and
• 1:02:26
  the environment at Villanova University,
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  is here today to discuss her research on
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  microplastics in the marine environment,
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  not just on coral reefs, which is, I
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  thought, first, what we were going to be
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  talking about focusing most of the show
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  on, even though we
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  talked a lot about that.
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  But there's other parts of the marine
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  environment that are affected by
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  microplastics and something that we need
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  to be concerned with. And we need to make
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  sure that the efforts that are done with
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  beach and coastal cleanups, as well as
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  policies in place to ban specific single
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  use plastics, do they actually work?
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  And sometimes they may work, but we don't
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  actually see it for ourselves anecdotally
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  when we're out in the marine environment.
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  It's a little bit misleading, but the
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  data shows that it actually works.
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  So we're going to find out all about that
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  and why that is in this interview with
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  Dr. Lisa Rodriguez. So here is the
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  interview enjoy and I
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  will talk to you after.
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  Hey Lisa, welcome to the How to Protect
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  the Ocean podcast. Are you ready to talk
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  about microplastics and
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  their effects on coral reefs?
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  Hey Andrew, thanks for having me. I'm
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  excited to be here and
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  to chat more about that.
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  All right, I'm looking forward to this is
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  gonna be a lot of fun. I say a lot of fun
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  because we're gonna be talking about
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  studies and research that are that's
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  going on. Obviously the topic doesn't
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  sound like a lot of fun in terms of the
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  effects on coral reefs, but we're going
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  to get into all of that. Before we do,
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  though, Lisa, why don't you just let us
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  know who you are and what you do?
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  Sure. My name is Lisa Rodriguez. I'm a
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  professor at Villanova University, which
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  is just outside of Philadelphia.
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  Awesome. Now, studying in Philadelphia
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  coral reefs, not something that you find
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  every day. I live in Burlington, Ontario,
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  just outside of Toronto, surrounded by
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  the Great Lakes. I say I'm a marine
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  biologist. Everybody's like, what are you
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  doing in Ontario? So I want to know how
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  did you end up in in in Philadelphia?
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  Obviously a fantastic university. How did
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  you end up in Philadelphia?
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  Yeah, so I first moved to Philadelphia to
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  do my PhD here at the University of
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  Pennsylvania where I did study coral
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  reefs. Most of that field work though was
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  done in Hawaii. So
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  that's not a bad deal, right?
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  Not a bad deal at all.
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  Part of your time in Philadelphia, part
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  of your time in Hawaii. Yeah. Before
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  that, I actually was in your neck of the
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  woods. I did a master's at
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  the University of Toronto.
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  Awesome.
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  Yeah. I lived in Toronto for a few years.
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  I got my undergrad from Dalhousie
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  University in Halifax, Nova Scotia. But I
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  actually grew up and I think where a lot
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  of my interest came from is I grew up in
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  Bermuda. And so on a tiny island in the
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  Atlantic surrounded by corals and coral
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  reefs. And I think, you know, that was
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  just is what sort of generated my
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  interest in marine biology and corals.
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  And I think that's sort of what led me
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  down this path to where I am today.
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  That's quite an adventurous childhood to
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  grow up in somewhere like, you know, very
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  small island of Bermuda. That's a huge
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  destination from for people here in
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  Canada because it's so close. And it's
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  such a lovely island.
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  I had a friend who lived out there. She
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  was an accountant over there, which a lot
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  of accountants start their careers over
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  there. And she would scuba dive on on her
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  as a hobby. And she learned to scuba dive
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  there. And then she
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  would got into the internet.
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  And then she just comes in a bit of retaliate. And then led her to a group group part of TagOUT G
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  showing out, a supervisor who wrote this
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  book of ten textiles on an Indian site, he thought he let her do a subpartite. But she was like, Well, like, I can't stop. And then she didn't express her ability to work specifically up to find a Pra Fantasy that that she had just published. If not, I'm talking aboutNo one practice.
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  or seeing the degradation
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  of reefs and other animals
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  and environments as you grew up.
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  Did you notice as a child
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  or was it just like so young
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  that you didn't have a
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  chance to notice that?
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  I think some aspects I noticed.
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  So certainly there were
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  things that would wash up
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  on the shore when you
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  would go to the beach
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  that clearly didn't
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  come from local areas,
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  but I definitely more when I go back now,
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  my family still lives there.
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  And when I travel back over the years
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  that I've lived away
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  that I feel like those are the times
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  where I've really noticed it much more
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  is just sort of seeing
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  that increase over time.
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  It was actually a few years ago,
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  I was visiting over the winter holidays
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  and we had all gone out, my
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  family and other families,
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  we'd gone out to a
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  restaurant that is right on the beach.
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  And after we had lunch, we
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  were walking along the beach.
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  And I was so surprised by
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  basically every step that I took,
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  there were pieces of
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  microplastic that I could see
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  as we were just walking.
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  And that was actually, I
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  mean, I'd studied corals
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  for many years prior to
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  that, but that was probably
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  the first time where I
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  realized, oh, this is something else
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  that I think we really
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  need to learn more about.
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  It's so interesting you
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  mentioned that because I was just,
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  I just got back from a trip
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  in Hawaii, beautiful place.
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  Obviously, you just talked about it, you
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  know, a lot of corals,
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  a lot of studies that
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  are being done there.
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  And the one thing I noticed, we went to
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  this wonderful beach,
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  Lanakai Beach, gorgeous area on a wall.
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  Oh, I know that. Yeah,
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  that is a great place.
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  It's beautiful. The sand is
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  like fine, fine, fine sand.
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  It feels so great on your feet.
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  We that's the beach where we notice the
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  microplastics the most.
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  And the funny thing is I overheard some
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  people saying like the people
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  that were besides they thought it was
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  something from the ocean.
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  Like they thought it was, you know,
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  sometimes you have these little pieces
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  of what looks like
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  glass, but it's not glass.
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  It's actually from the ocean.
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  And they thought that's what it was.
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  They thought it was from the ocean.
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  They didn't like the fact that I told
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  them, actually, it's not marine
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  biologist here.
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  That's not from the ocean.
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  I mean, it's from the
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  ocean, but it shouldn't be.
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  It's a microplastic.
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  But they had no idea.
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  Do you think there is a like from I mean,
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  obviously you and I know,
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  especially doing a lot of work on
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  microplastics and so forth.
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  Do you find that there's a lot of people
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  that may not know how to identify
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  those microplastics if they just see it
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  on a beach because sometimes it's kind
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  of hidden. Sometimes it's white and
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  sometimes it's blue.
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  So sometimes it could look like a shelf.
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  You don't touch it.
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  Do you find that there's a little bit of
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  that naivete around that?
• 1:08:52
  Absolutely. Yeah.
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  And I think I think that goes for all
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  kinds of litter and debris.
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  Right. We don't.
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  So, you know, if you think about just
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  driving your car around the road or
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  something, unless you what what I've
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  learned in the last couple of years,
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  working with people doing cleanups is
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  that when you start looking for it,
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  realize that it's so
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  pervasive and is everywhere.
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  But that until you reach that point where
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  your eye is kind of trained for it
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  and doesn't take long to become sort of
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  trained with this is then you see it
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  everywhere and it's actually really
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  difficult not to see it.
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  Like we actually apologize to people when
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  they join us in cleanups for the first
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  time because because we
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  say, you know, this is great.
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  And we're happy that you're here.
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  But just so you know, you're never going
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  to look and you're going
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  to see this everywhere.
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  No matter where you look, you'll see.
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  Yeah. And so that applies to what we
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  would call macro debris, like the larger
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  pieces, as well as the microplastics is
• 1:09:54
  once you start to see it,
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  you realize just how
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  pervasive it really is.
• 1:10:00
  And it's like you want
• 1:10:01
  more people to know that.
• 1:10:03
  But you also don't want to ruin people's
• 1:10:05
  sort of idea of what the ocean is and
• 1:10:07
  what it should be and what a beach should
• 1:10:09
  be our shoreline should be.
• 1:10:11
  But once you learn it's like, ah, these
• 1:10:13
  scientists, they're always bringing us
• 1:10:14
  down, making us more
• 1:10:15
  aware of stuff, you know.
• 1:10:17
  But it's it's it's interesting, you know,
• 1:10:19
  as as you grow up, you know, in a place
• 1:10:21
  like Bermuda and the idea of just Bermuda
• 1:10:24
  just sounds wonderful.
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  Right. It must have been a fun childhood.
• 1:10:29
  And you you again, you don't, as you
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  mentioned, you probably didn't really
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  notice a lot of the things
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  that that happened there.
• 1:10:34
  And maybe, you know, when you're a child,
• 1:10:36
  like when I was a child, it maybe wasn't
• 1:10:38
  as persistent as it was today.
• 1:10:40
  And as we use more and more plastics,
• 1:10:43
  when I when I grew up, Coke
• 1:10:44
  was still out of a glass bottle.
• 1:10:45
  You know, that's the
• 1:10:46
  generation that I've from.
• 1:10:48
  So may not have been
• 1:10:49
  persistent as it is today.
• 1:10:52
  What type of sort of like games did you
• 1:10:56
  get up to or what kind of like life did
• 1:10:58
  you have as a child
• 1:10:59
  growing up in an island?
• 1:11:00
  Were you in the water a lot or, you know,
• 1:11:03
  some island communities don't
• 1:11:04
  like to be in the water a lot.
• 1:11:05
  There's a definite fear.
• 1:11:06
  Were you always, always wanting to be in
• 1:11:08
  the water growing up, you
• 1:11:10
  know, being a marine biologist?
• 1:11:12
  I definitely was.
• 1:11:13
  I mean, I don't I had I know what you
• 1:11:15
  mean about sometimes people
• 1:11:16
  prefer not to be in the water.
• 1:11:18
  And I definitely know people
• 1:11:20
  who fit into that category.
• 1:11:21
  But for for me, I was
• 1:11:23
  always I was always in the ocean.
• 1:11:27
  So, you know, that's where I learned how
• 1:11:29
  to swim, was being sort of thrown out of
• 1:11:31
  a boat and sort of to
• 1:11:34
  see what's going to happen.
• 1:11:37
  And and, you know, a
• 1:11:39
  lot of my summer jobs
• 1:11:42
  through the time that I was in school,
• 1:11:44
  but also when I would go
• 1:11:45
  home from university were
• 1:11:47
  were related to to the
• 1:11:50
  marine environment in some way.
• 1:11:52
  It's just some
• 1:11:52
  aspects of science locally.
• 1:11:56
  I like my favorite place there still, I
• 1:11:58
  feel like I could give them a plug is if
• 1:12:00
  you if you're visiting
• 1:12:01
  from you to go check out the
• 1:12:03
  Bermuda Aquarium Museum and Zoo.
• 1:12:05
  It's like a wonderful place.
• 1:12:07
  You can't get into the water.
• 1:12:09
  That's like a really great place to see
• 1:12:11
  the fish and of the other
• 1:12:12
  animals that we have there.
• 1:12:15
  And really just that I spent a lot of my
• 1:12:18
  time there and then also involved in
• 1:12:21
  research as I got older as well.
• 1:12:25
  And so, yeah, I really did.
• 1:12:26
  We really did spend our time like I
• 1:12:29
  remember playing with sea cucumbers on
• 1:12:31
  the beach in my summer holidays because
• 1:12:33
  we would collect them and then play with
• 1:12:35
  them on the on the beach afterwards
• 1:12:37
  before putting them back.
• 1:12:38
  Right.
• 1:12:39
  Yeah, so it's just to me, it was just
• 1:12:41
  like the normal thing that you did.
• 1:12:43
  And those were the kinds of
• 1:12:44
  things that I learned about
• 1:12:46
  and really grew to appreciate and love.
• 1:12:50
  And it was really, I think, getting my
• 1:12:53
  interest in science and and having, you
• 1:12:56
  know, sort of a more science background
• 1:12:58
  as I went into college and
• 1:13:00
  university was really about
• 1:13:03
  wanting to understand how those different
• 1:13:05
  things worked, what was
• 1:13:06
  going on in the ecosystem.
• 1:13:09
  And I was just always really interested
• 1:13:10
  in just learning more about them.
• 1:13:12
  Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, it's it's it's
• 1:13:14
  for me as someone who has the same likes.
• 1:13:17
  I mean, that is the dream, right, is to
• 1:13:18
  grow up and to be around the ocean.
• 1:13:20
  Can you pinpoint a time in your life
• 1:13:23
  where you're just like, I want to learn
• 1:13:25
  more about these and this is what I want
• 1:13:27
  to do as a career, like as a because
• 1:13:29
  growing up, you know,
• 1:13:30
  you're near the Bermuda
• 1:13:32
  Institute of Oceanography,
• 1:13:34
  you are around the water.
• 1:13:35
  Was there any time in that childhood or
• 1:13:37
  did that come later as
• 1:13:39
  you went to university?
• 1:13:40
  And I so I think it was
• 1:13:42
  really early on, actually.
• 1:13:44
  Yeah.
• 1:13:45
  Like I said, for me, it was there.
• 1:13:49
  I was sort of spent more time at the
• 1:13:51
  aquarium and they have a research
• 1:13:53
  component there as well.
• 1:13:55
  And so I think, you know, probably from
• 1:13:59
  the time that I was in middle school,
• 1:14:01
  maybe even earlier than that, I I knew
• 1:14:04
  that I like my dream job probably still
• 1:14:07
  would be to work there.
• 1:14:11
  But yeah, like I knew that I didn't I
• 1:14:14
  didn't know like what it meant to be a
• 1:14:17
  scientist really or to be a professor.
• 1:14:19
  So that wasn't on my radar.
• 1:14:21
  Right. But I knew that
• 1:14:23
  I wanted to do science.
• 1:14:24
  They knew that I wanted to do science, be
• 1:14:26
  involved in science in some way related
• 1:14:28
  to to the marine environment.
• 1:14:31
  And so and so that's actually why I ended
• 1:14:33
  up going to Dalhousie was that they have
• 1:14:35
  a really good marine
• 1:14:36
  program there on the East Coast.
• 1:14:39
  Yeah. Yeah. And they've they've
• 1:14:41
  diversified quite a bit now.
• 1:14:42
  Their marine affairs program and their
• 1:14:44
  their science and research
• 1:14:45
  is just top notch in Canada.
• 1:14:48
  It's it's it's quite lovely.
• 1:14:51
  That's awesome. So you have like, you
• 1:14:52
  know, growing up from, you know,
• 1:14:52
  obviously Canada is really close.
• 1:14:54
  So you learn about Canada
• 1:14:56
  and then you end up in the U.S.
• 1:14:58
  Right. Afterwards.
• 1:15:00
  And when you come out of of Dalhousie,
• 1:15:03
  was it still coral reefs on your mind?
• 1:15:05
  Was that still what you wanted to study
• 1:15:07
  or was there is was is that when the
• 1:15:09
  microplastics started to come into play?
• 1:15:12
  No. So, yeah, my sort of research sort of
• 1:15:16
  trajectory was after I finished, I had a
• 1:15:20
  degree in biology from Dalhousie.
• 1:15:24
  I knew that I wanted to do a master's.
• 1:15:26
  I really enjoyed I had some experience
• 1:15:28
  doing research at Dalhousie and I knew
• 1:15:30
  that I wanted to kind of keep doing that.
• 1:15:32
  So I looked around.
• 1:15:34
  I ended up doing a project actually
• 1:15:37
  partially based in Bermuda and partially
• 1:15:39
  based in Toronto on.
• 1:15:42
  I worked in a lab that focused on
• 1:15:43
  crustacean behavior and I studied an
• 1:15:48
  organism that's on reefs.
• 1:15:49
  It's a hermit crab that's
• 1:15:51
  actually endemic to Bermuda.
• 1:15:53
  OK, that's actually really cool.
• 1:15:56
  It's a really cool hermit crabs.
• 1:15:57
  Hermit crabs are awesome.
• 1:15:59
  That one of the things that I found out
• 1:16:02
  about it is that the the males are
• 1:16:05
  primarily mobile in the way that we would
• 1:16:07
  imagine hermit crabs to be.
• 1:16:09
  They walk around in shells, but it's
• 1:16:11
  unique in that the majority of females of
• 1:16:14
  the species actually live in tubes that
• 1:16:16
  are fixed to the reef.
• 1:16:17
  And so they cannot move around.
• 1:16:20
  And I did not know that.
• 1:16:22
  Yeah. And so it's a really interesting.
• 1:16:24
  Again, I would. This is one.
• 1:16:25
  I haven't studied
• 1:16:26
  this in years and years.
• 1:16:27
  Yeah. Look at it again.
• 1:16:29
  But there's there's a lot of kind of just
• 1:16:32
  interesting behavior that we studied
• 1:16:34
  related related to that, like whether
• 1:16:36
  there was some choice in
• 1:16:37
  what the females were doing.
• 1:16:39
  Turns out that there's not.
• 1:16:40
  They're kind of relegated to live in
• 1:16:42
  things like suboptimal little tubes.
• 1:16:47
  Yeah.
• 1:16:48
  That's so I studied that at the
• 1:16:50
  University of Toronto.
• 1:16:51
  I actually took a year off after that and
• 1:16:54
  worked in Bermuda at at the aquarium
• 1:16:57
  doing research more on
• 1:16:59
  terrestrial work there.
• 1:17:02
  And then I ended up finding an
• 1:17:05
  opportunity at the University of
• 1:17:06
  Pennsylvania to do a PhD.
• 1:17:08
  And that's really where I got into like
• 1:17:09
  corals, coral ecosystems.
• 1:17:12
  Right.
• 1:17:12
  And it wasn't until in the last sort of
• 1:17:15
  like five or six years that I've been at
• 1:17:17
  Villanova as a faculty member that it
• 1:17:22
  just sort of became clear that studying
• 1:17:25
  plastics, marine debris in general, as
• 1:17:29
  well as micro plastics was something that
• 1:17:32
  I would like to do to more of.
• 1:17:35
  I've been working with a colleague of
• 1:17:38
  mine in my department who focuses on
• 1:17:41
  river ecosystems and we were studying in
• 1:17:43
  Puerto Rico, the impacts of pollutants
• 1:17:46
  coming down the river, mostly focused on
• 1:17:49
  sort of dissolved pollutants like
• 1:17:50
  sediments and things like that.
• 1:18:01
  And so we were able to get
• 1:18:05
  funding to continue that work.
• 1:18:08
  And that's kind of how I sort of
• 1:18:09
  transitioned into that area.
• 1:18:11
  Okay.
• 1:18:12
  And now, you know, we've seen, you know,
• 1:18:14
  micro plastics really come to the
• 1:18:16
  forefront of sort of one of the major
• 1:18:19
  issues, I would say in in the ocean in
• 1:18:21
  general, even in our world.
• 1:18:23
  I think it's really exploded over the
• 1:18:25
  last, I'd say five or six years,
• 1:18:27
  especially the last two years where we're
• 1:18:28
  starting to see studies come out and
• 1:18:31
  being published of, you know, micro
• 1:18:34
  plastics being in our body, being in the
• 1:18:35
  air, being in the water.
• 1:18:37
  And as as marine biologists growing up in
• 1:18:40
  the last two decades, you
• 1:18:42
  know, we've seen microplastic.
• 1:18:44
  We knew that was a microplastic problem
• 1:18:46
  before there was a microplastic, even
• 1:18:47
  just a plastic debris problem.
• 1:18:49
  We knew that was a problem.
• 1:18:50
  We could see it, you know, continuing.
• 1:18:52
  Not much had been done with
• 1:18:53
  it over the last two decades.
• 1:18:55
  Now we're really starting to see more
• 1:18:57
  policies put in place, studies being
• 1:18:59
  done, really starting to see some of the
• 1:19:01
  major consequences of these actions and
• 1:19:04
  the non-actions of
• 1:19:05
  what hasn't taken place.
• 1:19:08
  Seeing, you know, studying
• 1:19:11
  coral reefs and marine debris.
• 1:19:14
  Why coral reefs at this point?
• 1:19:16
  You know, like it's such a broad subject
• 1:19:19
  and obviously you want to
• 1:19:19
  niche into a certain place.
• 1:19:21
  Totally understandable.
• 1:19:22
  Why coral reefs?
• 1:19:25
  So there's there are so many other
• 1:19:27
  stressors that are on coral reefs, some
• 1:19:28
  of which I've studied.
• 1:19:30
  And so this, you know, we all there are
• 1:19:32
  many studies that have shown when you
• 1:19:34
  have these sort of multiple stressors,
• 1:19:36
  just like with humans, you know,
• 1:19:38
  you're sick, you're more likely to have
• 1:19:40
  something else happen to you or you, you
• 1:19:43
  know, it's harder to do things.
• 1:19:46
  And that's the same thing with corals is
• 1:19:48
  while they're much simpler organisms,
• 1:19:51
  they're, they're definitely this sort of
• 1:19:53
  compounding aspect of multiple stressors
• 1:19:56
  is something that is really important
• 1:19:58
  because we're sort of
• 1:19:59
  throwing many, many things at them.
• 1:20:01
  And so this sort of felt like kind of a
• 1:20:04
  natural next step for the research that I
• 1:20:08
  was doing was previously mostly focused
• 1:20:11
  on some of the physiological impacts,
• 1:20:14
  like sort of what's happening in the
• 1:20:15
  corals body when
• 1:20:17
  different stress stressors happen.
• 1:20:20
  And so to sort of now tie in this other
• 1:20:24
  aspect, I know we haven't directly there.
• 1:20:27
  There are other studies out there. We
• 1:20:28
  haven't directly in my lab looked at what
• 1:20:32
  the direct impacts are of microplastics
• 1:20:34
  on corals in part because it's very
• 1:20:37
  difficult to study in the field, which I
• 1:20:39
  think is where the
• 1:20:41
  important questions are.
• 1:20:41
  And so instead what we've been doing is
• 1:20:45
  looking at some of the more broader
• 1:20:47
  ecosystem impacts of beaches, mangroves
• 1:20:51
  and tropical river systems that are sort
• 1:20:54
  of all adjacent to coral reef ecosystems.
• 1:21:07
  And so we're looking at where it lands.
• 1:21:09
  So like, where does it sit for a little
• 1:21:10
  for a while, because then that can kind
• 1:21:13
  of tell us where we're more likely to
• 1:21:16
  find microplastics and maybe also give us
• 1:21:18
  some clues as to where, where we can kind
• 1:21:21
  of do some prevention and
• 1:21:23
  more management activities.
• 1:21:27
  And so I just got into a lot there and I
• 1:21:28
  want to kind of break it down a little
• 1:21:29
  bit. Sure. There's there was so much
• 1:21:31
  there that was kind of juicy from a
• 1:21:33
  scientific point of view that I wanted to
• 1:21:35
  break down. We talked about cumulative
• 1:21:36
  effects in in coral reefs. Now,
• 1:21:38
  obviously, you know, we have bleaching
• 1:21:40
  because of major heat, sun, like even
• 1:21:44
  even more sunlight exposure. We have
• 1:21:46
  ocean acidification are some of the three
• 1:21:49
  major things that have caused, you know,
• 1:21:52
  mass coral bleaching in the past and even
• 1:21:55
  just the development of
• 1:21:56
  with ocean acidification.
• 1:21:56
  The problem in developing stony corals or
• 1:21:59
  any kind of coral that uses calcium and
• 1:22:01
  so forth. And I don't want to go into the
• 1:22:03
  details of that because we've covered it
• 1:22:05
  on other podcasts and we want to focus on
• 1:22:07
  the on the microplastics here.
• 1:22:10
  It, but when you when you start to look
• 1:22:12
  at you mentioned in the field, it's very
• 1:22:13
  difficult to study just the direct impact
• 1:22:15
  of microplastics on these corals because
• 1:22:17
  we have all these other things that are
• 1:22:19
  affecting it at the same time.
• 1:22:22
  Is it possible I know for some people,
• 1:22:25
  some researchers where they actually take
• 1:22:28
  corals and grow them in situ or not in
• 1:22:31
  situ, but in a lab where they can
• 1:22:35
  manipulate the environment a little
• 1:22:38
  better to tease out some of the some of
• 1:22:42
  those cumulative effects.
• 1:22:42
  So in essence, like control light control
• 1:22:46
  heat and then expose them to
• 1:22:48
  microplastics. Has that been done so far
• 1:22:52
  before or have you done that or anybody
• 1:22:53
  else in that? Yes. Yes. So there are
• 1:22:56
  several studies where people have done
• 1:22:58
  laboratory experiments like you were
• 1:23:00
  describing to assess the impacts and or
• 1:23:04
  where they have, you know, they have sort
• 1:23:06
  of varied questions.
• 1:23:06
  Sometimes the simple question of do will
• 1:23:10
  corals consume microplastics or not. And
• 1:23:16
  it and there's kind of a mixed bag of
• 1:23:18
  results, I think in terms of what's out
• 1:23:21
  there. So depending on the species,
• 1:23:24
  depending on the sort of the details of
• 1:23:25
  the study, you can find that corals.
• 1:23:29
  Corals, yes, will eat microplastics and
• 1:23:32
  consume them. They tend to be more likely
• 1:23:36
  to do so if the microplastics have a
• 1:23:39
  biofilm on them. So, you know, like if
• 1:23:41
  you leave something with water in water,
• 1:23:44
  it no matter what, even if the water
• 1:23:46
  looks crystal clear and clean, there's
• 1:23:48
  bacteria in there that will end up
• 1:23:50
  causing like a sort of a like a slimy
• 1:23:53
  film on the surface of things.
• 1:23:55
  Yeah.
• 1:23:56
  And so that's that's a biofilm is there's
• 1:23:59
  where there's a sort of like microbial
• 1:24:00
  activity that coats the surface of
• 1:24:02
  something. And that we think the sort of
• 1:24:07
  the the thought behind that is that that
• 1:24:09
  ends up being like a mimicry
• 1:24:11
  to something that would be food.
• 1:24:14
  And so the corals might just be pulled
• 1:24:18
  and other organisms to might be pulled
• 1:24:21
  into thinking that this sort of seems
• 1:24:22
  like it is something
• 1:24:24
  edible. And so they ingest it.
• 1:24:27
  In the case of corals. The other thing
• 1:24:28
  that's kind of interesting is they have
• 1:24:30
  also been known to spit out
• 1:24:33
  microplastics so they ingest.
• 1:24:36
  And so it's hard to know how much
• 1:24:38
  actually stays in so corals polyps are
• 1:24:41
  just a really simple sack. Yes, they have
• 1:24:44
  just one opening, unlike humans and other
• 1:24:48
  animals, we have to
• 1:24:49
  opening, they just have one.
• 1:24:52
  And so, you know, food and waste comes
• 1:24:56
  goes in and out of the same opening.
• 1:24:59
  And so they also don't really have they
• 1:25:02
  have a stomach, but it's not really the
• 1:25:03
  same kind of thing that we have. And so
• 1:25:06
  they don't it's unclear how much
• 1:25:09
  digestion is is going on or whether
• 1:25:11
  they're the same issues that we see with
• 1:25:13
  birds or fish when it
• 1:25:15
  comes to ingestion of plastics.
• 1:25:19
  So anyhow, they there's there is this
• 1:25:22
  sort of like complicated story I think of
• 1:25:24
  they definitely do consume. They seem to
• 1:25:27
  consume more when
• 1:25:28
  they're covered with biofilm.
• 1:25:53
  And so they are able to also e jest.
• 1:25:55
  They are able to sort of determine. So,
• 1:25:59
  that's, that's, that's, that's out for my
• 1:26:03
  understanding of what we kind of know so
• 1:26:05
  far. Yeah, it's such a broad kind of
• 1:26:09
  subject mattering I think a lot of people
• 1:26:10
  think corals they don't think
• 1:26:11
  of how many different species
• 1:26:13
  of corals there are around the world
• 1:26:15
  right there's a lot of different ones
• 1:26:16
  they all react differently to heat to
• 1:26:18
  temperature to to ocean acidification and
• 1:26:21
  I'm sure they all, you know, will will be
• 1:26:23
  different when it comes to microplastics
• 1:26:25
  and their exposure to
• 1:26:27
  microplastics just like nutrients
• 1:26:29
  and so forth. So it becomes a difficult
• 1:26:31
  thing to, you know, to study from the
• 1:26:35
  study where you did in the river system
• 1:26:37
  where you looked at sort of how debris
• 1:26:41
  would affect the entire ecosystem.
• 1:26:43
  Was that the approach you took it when
• 1:26:45
  you first started looking at corals is
• 1:26:46
  just how does it affect a coral reef
• 1:26:49
  instead of an individual coral, or did
• 1:26:52
  you go to the individual first.
• 1:26:55
  So for corals we typically the way that
• 1:26:57
  I've been studying it as we focus on
• 1:26:59
  individual species. Okay, and not as much
• 1:27:03
  on the overall system although we try to
• 1:27:07
  draw conclusions that can
• 1:27:08
  apply to the overall system.
• 1:27:11
  And so, in, in part, I think some of that
• 1:27:14
  is because the corals that I've been
• 1:27:16
  sitting mostly are in Hawaii.
• 1:27:19
  And there are fewer species that are that
• 1:27:21
  are there, especially in a particular bay
• 1:27:24
  that we work in, where there's much of
• 1:27:28
  the bay is dominated by two, two very
• 1:27:31
  distinct species and so a lot of the work
• 1:27:33
  that I've done has been
• 1:27:34
  focused on sort of a comparative
• 1:27:37
  We tend to, at least for me I tend to
• 1:27:44
  focus on on the coral and I think that's
• 1:27:47
  in part just because I would consider
• 1:27:50
  myself to be more of a physiologist, like
• 1:27:51
  sort of trying to understand how the
• 1:27:53
  underlying biology is working in this.
• 1:27:59
  That makes sense, that
• 1:28:00
  makes complete sense.
• 1:28:01
  Now at this point of the podcast,
• 1:28:03
  people are listening and they hear, okay,
• 1:28:06
  so you're at Villanova University,
• 1:28:09
  fantastic university, right?
• 1:28:10
  One of the best in the country.
• 1:28:12
  You do field work in Hawaii.
• 1:28:14
  So the first thing
• 1:28:15
  people are gonna ask me is,
• 1:28:16
  how do I work with Dr. Rodriguez
• 1:28:19
  so that I can live in Philadelphia
• 1:28:20
  and then I can go to
• 1:28:21
  Hawaii once, maybe twice a year?
• 1:28:25
  Do you get a lot of
• 1:28:26
  students who are also interested?
• 1:28:27
  Because coral reef is, you know, when you
• 1:28:29
  first get into marine
• 1:28:29
  biology, especially students,
• 1:28:30
  they want to learn about, you know, the
• 1:28:32
  top subjects are marine mammals, sharks,
• 1:28:35
  and then you have coral reefs.
• 1:28:36
  Do you get a lot of people who come and
• 1:28:38
  be like, hey, look, I've seen your work.
• 1:28:40
  I like what you do. I like where you go.
• 1:28:58
  To try to kind of ensure that the people
• 1:29:01
  who do work in the field are ones who are
• 1:29:04
  able to deal with the less glamorous
• 1:29:06
  aspects of, you know,
• 1:29:09
  your elbow deep in seawater on a regular
• 1:29:12
  basis in tanks and corals
• 1:29:14
  smell funny and long hours.
• 1:29:19
  We study coral reproduction and that
• 1:29:21
  happens at times
• 1:29:22
  during happy hour typically.
• 1:29:24
  So, you know, we gotta watch corals
• 1:29:27
  reproduce instead of going to happy hour.
• 1:29:30
  So things like that. We
• 1:29:31
  yeah, it's not as glamorous.
• 1:29:33
  There's, you know, it's while it's
• 1:29:36
  amazing and it's beautiful.
• 1:29:37
  It's a really wonderful experience and I
• 1:29:39
  feel very privileged to have had them.
• 1:29:43
  You know, it's also
• 1:29:43
  you're working in the hot sun.
• 1:29:46
  It's hard work.
• 1:29:47
  It's a lot of hard work.
• 1:29:48
  It's it can be very physical.
• 1:29:49
  This just swimming alone, you know, and
• 1:29:53
  you work while you're swimming is a lot.
• 1:29:58
  But yeah, we do. We definitely we
• 1:30:00
  definitely don't suffer from lack of
• 1:30:02
  volunteers for working in Hawaii or
• 1:30:05
  Puerto Rico, which is
• 1:30:06
  another, which is another area.
• 1:30:08
  Yeah, not too bad in places, right?
• 1:30:12
  Now, but like, you know, talking about
• 1:30:14
  working in in in these places like in the
• 1:30:17
  ocean, if you're you know, a lot of times
• 1:30:20
  you can find corals in shallow areas.
• 1:30:22
  But also, you know, I just went to you
• 1:30:26
  know, to Hawaii, like I mentioned, I just
• 1:30:27
  got back and I saw that there were, you
• 1:30:31
  know, hazards in the ocean in terms of
• 1:30:33
  currents and riptides and, you know,
• 1:30:35
  being along the shore in those areas can
• 1:30:38
  be quite dangerous in a way.
• 1:30:40
  You know, the big the big saying there is
• 1:30:42
  don't turn your back ever on the ocean
• 1:30:44
  because you never know what it's going to
• 1:30:46
  do the bay that you believe you said
• 1:30:48
  there's one bay that
• 1:30:49
  you that you worked in.
• 1:30:50
  Yes. Where is it? And then and then and
• 1:30:53
  how does it how is that in terms of safe
• 1:30:56
  and safety is in that area?
• 1:31:00
  Sure. So we work primarily off of the
• 1:31:04
  coast of Oahu, which is the main island
• 1:31:07
  of Hawaii where where
• 1:31:08
  Honolulu is located.
• 1:31:10
  Yeah, but on the sort of the opposite
• 1:31:11
  side of the mountains from Honolulu,
• 1:31:14
  there's a marine institute there called
• 1:31:17
  the Hawaii Institute of Marine Biology.
• 1:31:20
  And when I was a graduate student to my
• 1:31:21
  PhD and then also since then as a faculty
• 1:31:23
  member of the one over, we've been
• 1:31:26
  working there on and off.
• 1:31:28
  It's located in Kaneohe Bay, the largest
• 1:31:32
  base. There is not too far from Lani Kai
• 1:31:34
  that you were talking about earlier.
• 1:31:36
  Yeah, it's a very sheltered bay.
• 1:31:41
  The the Marine Institute is is itself on
• 1:31:46
  a small island and that island is
• 1:31:50
  completely surrounded by fringing reefs.
• 1:31:52
  So you don't you barely need to get your
• 1:31:55
  toes wet in order to be able to see the
• 1:31:58
  corals and you and even then you you
• 1:32:01
  could stay fairly dry
• 1:32:02
  and see them from land.
• 1:32:04
  So everything is fairly close. It's one
• 1:32:06
  of the reasons why there's just so much
• 1:32:08
  research that is
• 1:32:09
  actually done at that location.
• 1:32:11
  It's it's it's relatively easy to work
• 1:32:13
  with. And then throughout that day, there
• 1:32:16
  are also patch reefs that are kind of
• 1:32:19
  distributed throughout
• 1:32:20
  the inner part of the day.
• 1:32:22
  And then as you get further out into the
• 1:32:26
  into like just sort of at the mouth of
• 1:32:28
  the bay, things can sometimes
• 1:32:30
  be a little bit more choppy.
• 1:32:34
  But you know that usually those are more
• 1:32:37
  experienced people will go right that
• 1:32:39
  work out there. So yeah, so yeah, it's a
• 1:32:41
  it's a nice it's a nice place.
• 1:32:42
  It has it. Yeah, they have really great
• 1:32:45
  facilities in terms of on on the island
• 1:32:49
  itself to be able to do experiments. And
• 1:32:52
  so we've done before tank experiments
• 1:32:55
  where we can bring corals into tanks and
• 1:32:57
  seawater and do some
• 1:32:59
  manipulations and things like that.
• 1:33:00
  So there's there's a lot of different
• 1:33:02
  things. Yeah, yeah, it's great. Yeah,
• 1:33:04
  that's amazing. You mentioned earlier,
• 1:33:06
  you know, looking at where corals are
• 1:33:09
  situated was important.
• 1:33:11
  You know, near the mouths of river
• 1:33:13
  rivers, but not all corals are near the
• 1:33:17
  mouth of mouths of rivers. We know rivers
• 1:33:19
  can be a spot where debris comes out and
• 1:33:23
  micro plastics are created through that.
• 1:33:24
  So have you found a difference in terms
• 1:33:28
  of corals that are closer to rivers being
• 1:33:31
  exposed to marine debris compared to
• 1:33:33
  coral reefs that are further away from
• 1:33:37
  those rivers? Is there a significant
• 1:33:39
  difference in those types of exposures?
• 1:33:43
  Yeah, that's a really great question. No,
• 1:33:45
  it kind of depends. So we haven't we've
• 1:33:48
  seen more sediment impacts than direct
• 1:33:52
  debris impacts in those but there'd be
• 1:33:54
  some parallels is my guess.
• 1:33:57
  So the corals that are closest to the
• 1:33:59
  mouths of rivers tend to be heavily
• 1:34:03
  impacted by sediments, but I've also seen
• 1:34:06
  in some locations. So in Puerto Rico,
• 1:34:08
  where we work, some of the healthiest
• 1:34:10
  corals that I've seen in that region.
• 1:34:12
  Are right at the mouth of where the there
• 1:34:16
  that they're so well
• 1:34:18
  adapted to living there.
• 1:34:21
  You know, this this was a place where I
• 1:34:24
  had to hold hands with my dive buddy in
• 1:34:27
  order to be able to not lose them because
• 1:34:29
  I couldn't see them. I could even barely
• 1:34:32
  see their bubbles from scuba diving.
• 1:34:36
  That's kind of insane. Yeah, that was it
• 1:34:38
  was like just pea soup plus there. And
• 1:34:42
  yet the corals that we just like and you
• 1:34:44
  know you don't because it's so just what
• 1:34:46
  the visibility is so bad you kind of it's
• 1:34:48
  sort of like this otherworldly kind of
• 1:34:50
  experience where you kind of swim up
• 1:34:52
  until they're right in front of your face
• 1:34:54
  you realize, oh, wait, this is a coral.
• 1:34:56
  Right.
• 1:34:57
  And I think that's what I was, we're so
• 1:34:59
  healthy and what I would describe as a
• 1:35:01
  happy for its polyps were all extended.
• 1:35:05
  It was happily feeding so there can be
• 1:35:07
  some definitely some local adaptations
• 1:35:11
  that are probably happening.
• 1:35:15
  And it's funny, we don't see as much
• 1:35:17
  debris in those kinds of areas. I'm sure
• 1:35:20
  it's there at the micro level it's just
• 1:35:23
  very difficult to measure and quantify.
• 1:35:29
  But there's, you know, we tend to see
• 1:35:32
  most things are will be on a reef in
• 1:35:37
  terms of debris, where you have kind of
• 1:35:40
  protrusions on the reef things that, you
• 1:35:43
  know, that debris can get
• 1:35:45
  wrapped around or trapped on.
• 1:35:49
  But I think that a lot of the sort of
• 1:35:52
  when the reef is a little bit more smooth
• 1:35:54
  than the debris tends not to get caught,
• 1:35:59
  at least the bigger pieces. And so we
• 1:36:01
  typically don't see it all
• 1:36:03
  that much it kind of varies.
• 1:36:05
  So when you say smooth, are you talking
• 1:36:07
  about like, like flat type of corals?
• 1:36:09
  Exactly. Almost like plate corals. Yeah.
• 1:36:12
  So more of like, or even sort of rounded
• 1:36:14
  mounding corals. Right.
• 1:36:16
  So where there's less kind of crevices or
• 1:36:20
  less upper where where you have more
• 1:36:22
  branching corals and yes, or other
• 1:36:26
  branching structures or where it does
• 1:36:29
  seem like you're more debris is piling up
• 1:36:33
  and stays and seems there.
• 1:36:37
  That's interesting. That's that's really
• 1:36:39
  yeah I think that's cool. That's cool to
• 1:36:40
  see those those types of differences
• 1:36:42
  again looking at the different species
• 1:36:44
  and diversity of the shapes of the corals
• 1:36:46
  in certain in terms of how it kind of
• 1:36:49
  intersects with all these different
• 1:36:51
  pathways that they get exposed. Right.
• 1:36:55
  So you see parallels in other ecosystems
• 1:36:58
  as well. So in mangroves, which are
• 1:37:01
  usually adjacent to these coral reef
• 1:37:03
  ecosystems and our trees that are going
• 1:37:05
  to grow in salt water.
• 1:37:08
  They, their roots tend to be the places
• 1:37:10
  that get, you know, plastic bags or rope
• 1:37:14
  or things like that twined around them
• 1:37:16
  and you see that that becomes like sort
• 1:37:18
  of an obvious feature sometimes.
• 1:37:22
  But that in in other areas that are maybe
• 1:37:25
  more flushed where the water is able to,
• 1:37:28
  yes, bring things in, but then also pull
• 1:37:30
  stuff out. It may not, you know, water
• 1:37:34
  bottles or things like that might not
• 1:37:36
  stick around all that long in the system.
• 1:37:40
  Because it wouldn't necessarily stick or
• 1:37:41
  connect to it. Exactly. Exactly. It's not
• 1:37:44
  getting trapped in the same way.
• 1:37:45
  So there's so there's the variety of the
• 1:37:48
  way the ecosystem looks, but then there's
• 1:37:49
  also the variety of the trash that we
• 1:37:53
  that we produce and how
• 1:37:55
  that how that plays into it.
• 1:37:58
  Yeah. And even though seeing a water
• 1:37:59
  bottle is not good in the ocean, it may
• 1:38:01
  not affect the corals in that situation.
• 1:38:04
  Exactly. It may not have the same kind of
• 1:38:06
  abrasive or shading impacts that that
• 1:38:10
  rope or plastic bags can have.
• 1:38:12
  Is there, you know, with all these
• 1:38:15
  different adaptations, different shapes
• 1:38:17
  and different features of a coral and
• 1:38:19
  even where they're where they grow and
• 1:38:21
  where they they're located.
• 1:38:24
  Is there a common method that you can
• 1:38:27
  evaluate the health of the coral in terms
• 1:38:30
  of, you know, being exposed to
• 1:38:34
  microplastics, you know, because a lot of
• 1:38:36
  times when we hear about like
• 1:38:37
  microplastics in marine mammals, we see
• 1:38:39
  it in their tissue and the chemicals.
• 1:38:40
  And there's an increase in the chemicals
• 1:38:42
  from those microplastics in their tissue.
• 1:38:45
  So they obviously obviously absorb it
• 1:38:46
  into their system. Doesn't sound like
• 1:38:49
  this is happening with corals or am I
• 1:38:51
  wrong here? We just
• 1:38:52
  not gotten to that part.
• 1:38:54
  I think I don't know that we know yet.
• 1:38:56
  Okay. How much chemically there's being
• 1:39:00
  an impact there there's an impact or not.
• 1:39:03
  So yeah, I'm not sure that
• 1:39:04
  we're there yet with corals.
• 1:39:07
  One of the things one of the features
• 1:39:09
  that we typically that has typically well
• 1:39:12
  there's two things that we typically
• 1:39:13
  study. One is sort of their
• 1:39:14
  photosynthetic potential. So like how
• 1:39:16
  rarely do we remember that corals are
• 1:39:19
  symbiotic between an allergy and
• 1:39:22
  endosymbic symbiotic algae and an animal.
• 1:39:26
  And then how good the photosynthesis is
• 1:39:29
  is one parameter that we tend to look at
• 1:39:32
  when we're looking at that health of the
• 1:39:34
  overall coral. And then another parameter
• 1:39:37
  that we tend to look at are sort of the
• 1:39:38
  energy reserves, like how much fats or
• 1:39:42
  carbohydrates or proteins are being built
• 1:39:45
  up in in the animal portion of that.
• 1:39:49
  And so possibly the plastics could impact
• 1:39:53
  both of those areas depending on how
• 1:39:58
  significant it is like you know ingestion
• 1:40:00
  of microplastics could cause sort of
• 1:40:04
  hypothesized to maybe cause self shading
• 1:40:06
  or shading to happen and maybe algae
• 1:40:09
  can't photosynthesize and then if you
• 1:40:11
  can't photosynthesize then
• 1:40:12
  you're not taking in energy.
• 1:40:14
  So there could be these
• 1:40:15
  kind of cascading effects.
• 1:40:18
  Some of the species of one of the species
• 1:40:20
  that I've studied in the past in Hawaii
• 1:40:22
  is a really big feeder.
• 1:40:26
  So one of the ways that it is able to
• 1:40:29
  survive coral bleaching is that it tends
• 1:40:33
  to feed on plankton more.
• 1:40:36
  And so that could also be another impact
• 1:40:39
  if you're if your little gut is full of
• 1:40:42
  plastics, you know, you won't be able to
• 1:40:44
  maybe feed as much or digest
• 1:40:46
  what you do feed on plankton.
• 1:40:49
  And so there could be these other things.
• 1:40:51
  But at least as far as I know, I haven't
• 1:40:54
  seen studies yet that have taken it to
• 1:40:58
  that level that sort of physiological
• 1:41:00
  level with microplastics and corals.
• 1:41:07
  And so that's really cool. Like to see it
• 1:41:10
  feels like we're just scratching the
• 1:41:11
  surface, no pun intended in terms of what
• 1:41:14
  what it could do and really bringing a
• 1:41:16
  light into again no pun intended in terms
• 1:41:19
  of how this like the physical aspect of
• 1:41:21
  trash being on a reef
• 1:41:23
  like a plastic bag being
• 1:41:25
  used for is amazing. I was I was walking
• 1:41:28
  in the marina where our hotel was and
• 1:41:31
  there were the corners of the marina
• 1:41:33
  where you just see the devastation of a
• 1:41:36
  lot of the trash that accumulates within
• 1:41:38
  a marina, whether that's from the boaters
• 1:41:41
  themselves or just a way that this is
• 1:41:44
  where the currents led them to.
• 1:41:45
  And then this is and this is where it is.
• 1:41:47
  But there were wasn't just like plastic
• 1:41:49
  grocery bags. There were some like
• 1:41:50
  industrial bags and there was like a lot
• 1:41:53
  of debris that you would not expect oil
• 1:41:55
  caps and things like that.
• 1:41:57
  And so it was quite devastating to see
• 1:41:59
  that in you know what I expected like
• 1:42:03
  Hawaii to be pristine and and so forth. I
• 1:42:05
  think it's just you know you falling for
• 1:42:06
  that dream of this these Hawaiian waters
• 1:42:09
  being so amazing but they they fall
• 1:42:11
  victim to a lot of pollution, whether
• 1:42:13
  it's from the island itself or from
• 1:42:16
  outside of the island.
• 1:42:19
  And so when you do studies like this, you
• 1:42:23
  obviously doing it to see the effect to
• 1:42:25
  see how we can manage it better right in
• 1:42:28
  the overall aspect of how can we lower
• 1:42:31
  the effect of of of marine I guess marine
• 1:42:35
  debris on coral reefs themselves,
• 1:42:38
  especially from this physical aspect.
• 1:42:42
  I know it's early on in the process, but
• 1:42:44
  what have you come up with? What have you
• 1:42:47
  seen or even talk to colleagues or even
• 1:42:50
  come up with yourself? We're just saying
• 1:42:51
  like, how can we get rid of this problem?
• 1:42:54
  Like, how can we stop it? Corvies tend to
• 1:42:56
  be really close to shore.
• 1:42:57
  And so I think that's one of the first
• 1:42:58
  sort of one of the first types of
• 1:42:59
  ecosystems that really feels the impact
• 1:43:02
  of this debris. What can we do as a
• 1:43:06
  society and and and just like to force
• 1:43:10
  policies to get to stop this from
• 1:43:12
  entering the water or
• 1:43:14
  even affecting the corals?
• 1:43:16
  And so I think that's one of the first types of ecosystems that really is
• 1:43:23
  important to remember, and I think that's
• 1:43:28
  one of the first things that's important
• 1:43:34
  to remember is that we can work on this.
• 1:43:41
  And so when you get to your local lake or
• 1:43:43
  river, that is eventually is getting to
• 1:43:45
  the ocean. And so every piece of litter,
• 1:43:48
  you know, that is in the city of
• 1:43:50
  Philadelphia, which is where I live, will
• 1:43:53
  eventually end up end up in the ocean.
• 1:43:57
  And I think that I think that's important
• 1:43:58
  for people to be aware of and remember
• 1:44:01
  because I think when, especially if
• 1:44:03
  you're a person who loves the ocean.
• 1:44:16
  You know, you're a person who loves the
• 1:44:16
  ocean as well. Or your town or your
• 1:44:19
  neighborhood. Yeah. And kind of thinking
• 1:44:22
  about those sort of local things that you
• 1:44:25
  could do. I think sometimes
• 1:44:26
  there's such a disconnect.
• 1:44:31
  I think that's one thing that's really
• 1:44:48
  important where we need to sort of do
• 1:44:52
  better at litter and waste management on
• 1:44:56
  all sorts of levels, even if
• 1:44:58
  we're not a coastal community.
• 1:45:00
  Although as you know, coastal
• 1:45:01
  communities, I think, especially and
• 1:45:03
  usually those are the places where people
• 1:45:05
  are very conscious of
• 1:45:06
  those kinds of things.
• 1:45:09
  We also find that this debris travels
• 1:45:14
  really long distances. So some of the
• 1:45:17
  things that we found on beaches in Puerto
• 1:45:18
  Rico, we are pretty sure have come from
• 1:45:21
  the coast of Africa, because of some of
• 1:45:23
  the writing on them.
• 1:45:24
  We think we find some things from the
• 1:45:27
  coast of Brazil, most likely, again,
• 1:45:29
  because of the writing and the language.
• 1:45:32
  In some cases, like the item that we're
• 1:45:34
  pretty sure has come from a Brazilian
• 1:45:36
  grocery store was printed in in 2015 and
• 1:45:42
  we're finding it in 2021.
• 1:45:45
  So, you know, so not only are they
• 1:45:47
  traveling long distances, but these
• 1:45:49
  things are in the environment for a
• 1:45:51
  really long time. And so anything that we
• 1:45:53
  can do to remove the item in the first
• 1:45:56
  place properly dispose of it, maybe also
• 1:46:00
  rethink what we purchase too.
• 1:46:04
  And this is tough because, you know, as
• 1:46:07
  as a society, especially if your
• 1:46:09
  listeners are maybe mostly in North
• 1:46:11
  America, you are going to have, we don't
• 1:46:14
  have a lot of choice, it's really hard to
• 1:46:16
  find like so I sometimes will spend a lot
• 1:46:18
  of time in the grocery store where I try
• 1:46:21
  to find the same product, but in glass,
• 1:46:24
  instead of in plastic
• 1:46:25
  or something like that, or, or can of
• 1:46:28
  some sort. Exactly. Or, you know, switch
• 1:46:31
  to something that is more paper or, you
• 1:46:35
  know, instead of shampoo in a bottle.
• 1:46:37
  What about shampoo in a bar
• 1:46:39
  form which is now a thing.
• 1:46:41
  Yeah.
• 1:46:43
  So I think thinking about the small
• 1:46:45
  things that we as individuals can really
• 1:46:48
  do to to pick up the waste when we can
• 1:46:52
  but also not to be producing it in the
• 1:46:54
  first place, I think,
• 1:46:55
  can be really beneficial.
• 1:46:58
  And then there's also you know like then
• 1:47:00
  I'd say sort of the next scale up in
• 1:47:03
  terms of community action. We see really
• 1:47:06
  big improvements with regular with
• 1:47:09
  regular cleanups. So one of the things
• 1:47:11
  that we do in Puerto Rico.
• 1:47:14
  We did them twice a year at first and
• 1:47:16
  then the wonderful people that are there
• 1:47:18
  are super excited by this and so they've
• 1:47:20
  been doing them more regularly on a bi
• 1:47:23
  monthly basis at two different beaches.
• 1:47:26
  80% of the degree that we find at these
• 1:47:28
  beaches is plastic 80% and so if you but
• 1:47:35
  we also see that if you
• 1:47:36
  do these regular cleanups.
• 1:47:39
  You can significantly reduce the total
• 1:47:42
  amount that you find. I mean it's crazy
• 1:47:44
  to think about but you could go every two
• 1:47:46
  months to the same spot and still trash,
• 1:47:49
  even though you cleaned it up, you know,
• 1:47:52
  spotless two months ago.
• 1:47:54
  And so, having that kind of regular
• 1:47:57
  investment in people time and effort, I
• 1:48:01
  think is also really important because
• 1:48:03
  doing that builds really big awareness,
• 1:48:06
  right, like start to really appreciate
• 1:48:09
  and start to really think about well if I
• 1:48:12
  don't want to spend my
• 1:48:13
  Saturday morning doing this.
• 1:48:15
  What are some other things that I can do
• 1:48:17
  to prevent this from
• 1:48:18
  happening in the first place.
• 1:48:21
  We also work with a lot of local
• 1:48:26
  restaurants in the area near the beaches
• 1:48:29
  in Puerto Rico to try to encourage them
• 1:48:31
  to reduce the packaging that they use to
• 1:48:36
  distribute food and so that can also be
• 1:48:38
  something you know, in terms of the
• 1:48:40
  businesses that you support.
• 1:48:43
  And so, you know, maybe your favorite
• 1:48:45
  restaurant or or shop or whatever that is
• 1:48:48
  by the beach, you could always encourage
• 1:48:51
  them to think about paper instead of
• 1:48:54
  plastic or you know, or or dishware
• 1:48:58
  instead of plastic, and those can all
• 1:49:01
  have kind of long standing I think
• 1:49:03
  benefits on that kind of scale.
• 1:49:06
  Yeah.
• 1:49:08
  I think that's all phenomenal things
• 1:49:10
  because I really like just working
• 1:49:12
  locally, you know, and it seems like a
• 1:49:14
  lot of this community driven, not only
• 1:49:17
  individually but community like the
• 1:49:18
  cleanups comes from a
• 1:49:20
  community aspect but it comes from.
• 1:49:23
  It comes from organizations like rare it
• 1:49:25
  comes from a place of pride, you know,
• 1:49:27
  like you clean up if you spend the time
• 1:49:30
  as a community to clean up these beaches
• 1:49:32
  or these waterways, whether you're in
• 1:49:36
  Philadelphia you're in Burlington you're
• 1:49:38
  in Hawaii you're in
• 1:49:39
  Puerto Rico, you can you
• 1:49:41
  see the difference. Over time, and you
• 1:49:45
  start to say hey we're this we actually
• 1:49:46
  can make a difference locally we may not
• 1:49:49
  be able to make it from a world
• 1:49:50
  perspective but we can make it locally we
• 1:49:52
  can keep our Bay, or, or
• 1:49:55
  whatever clean in this particular
• 1:49:58
  area, and then we take pride and we can
• 1:50:00
  talk to people about that and put in and,
• 1:50:02
  you know, going over what works what
• 1:50:04
  doesn't successes and challenges to help
• 1:50:06
  other communities do the same thing. I
• 1:50:08
  love that aspect. I even love the aspect
• 1:50:10
  again talking about local community,
• 1:50:13
  going to your favorite eatery and just be
• 1:50:14
  like hey like, I see that
• 1:50:16
  you know you have a lot of plastic
• 1:50:18
  containers, you can you just put in a bag
• 1:50:20
  or can we do something else it'll really
• 1:50:22
  help. We clean up the beach like twice a
• 1:50:24
  month and there's this I see this stuff
• 1:50:26
  all the time. Can we move I really like
• 1:50:28
  that connection, and I feel like we've
• 1:50:31
  moved away from that especially in North
• 1:50:32
  America we've moved away from that local
• 1:50:35
  connection and having that relationship
• 1:50:37
  with people you respect, not from a place
• 1:50:39
  of hey don't do this you're an awful
• 1:50:41
  person but hey, I've seen this happen.
• 1:50:43
  And, and a lot of times, you know, your
• 1:50:46
  branding was on it you don't want to see
• 1:50:47
  that at like let's let's try and figure
• 1:50:48
  out ways to do it whether it works or not
• 1:50:50
  is something to be to be said like
• 1:50:52
  something to look ahead at but I feel
• 1:50:54
  like that that really helps in terms of
• 1:50:57
  of this of this type of moment but it
• 1:51:01
  seems like people are really just
• 1:51:03
  continue to be disconnected from the
• 1:51:05
  ocean I you know even being even being in
• 1:51:08
  Hawaii, I saw a lot of things that
• 1:51:10
  surprised me, you know,
• 1:51:12
  and it comes back to this.
• 1:51:14
  You know, the first thing is you're at a
• 1:51:15
  lot of restaurants when you go away.
• 1:51:17
  Every time a drink came, there was a
• 1:51:19
  straw, you know, compostable
• 1:51:21
  biodegradable or compostable straws which
• 1:51:24
  I know aren't really compostable they're
• 1:51:26
  basically plastic, and and you just sit
• 1:51:28
  there and you're like,
• 1:51:29
  look, I understand people don't
• 1:51:31
  are sick of the plastic straw thing, I
• 1:51:33
  get it. And I understand maybe there was
• 1:51:36
  we went too far as as a as a conservation
• 1:51:39
  sort of plethora of like conservation
• 1:51:41
  community to really focus in on that. To
• 1:51:44
  me, it was like a gateway to other
• 1:51:46
  plastics and are just
• 1:51:47
  our usage of plastics.
• 1:51:49
  But it seems like people are almost
• 1:51:50
  rebelling against that, you know, you see
• 1:51:53
  the the current administration. We've
• 1:51:56
  seen people just regular people just
• 1:51:58
  being like, I'm just sick of it. I don't
• 1:51:59
  want to have a paper straw.
• 1:52:04
  How do we as as the scientific community
• 1:52:07
  as a conservative people interested in
• 1:52:09
  conservation, not even scientists. How do
• 1:52:11
  we combat that like what's your opinion
• 1:52:13
  on that. When we start to see people
• 1:52:17
  rebel against the conservation things
• 1:52:19
  that we want people to take.
• 1:52:21
  I sort of see it as a sort of a fatigue
• 1:52:23
  in a way, right, we're just so sick of
• 1:52:26
  and I get that I totally understand that
• 1:52:29
  there's, you know, sometimes you hear so
• 1:52:31
  much about something that just doesn't
• 1:52:33
  kind of connect like why are we caring
• 1:52:35
  about this tiny little tube.
• 1:52:39
  Yeah, I mean, I think one one aspect that
• 1:52:42
  I think is important to keep in mind that
• 1:52:44
  maybe will help with this is all of these
• 1:52:48
  larger pieces of plastic that we use just
• 1:52:51
  one time, whether we dispose of them
• 1:52:54
  correctly, or we don't all of those
• 1:52:57
  things will end up as micro plastics
• 1:52:59
  and as they as they degrade and you know
• 1:53:02
  so all of the kind of health impacts and
• 1:53:05
  the things that are these like scary
• 1:53:07
  headlines that you mentioned at the at
• 1:53:09
  the start about where we find where we're
• 1:53:12
  finding micro plastics in the human body.
• 1:53:15
  We can potentially reduce the total
• 1:53:18
  number of micro plastics, if we just get
• 1:53:20
  the big things out and
• 1:53:23
  we stop utilizing them.
• 1:53:26
  And also, you know, I think it's also
• 1:53:28
  important to remember with plastic that
• 1:53:31
  there are these big pros and cons you
• 1:53:35
  know it's so imagine you're you have to
• 1:53:37
  go to your doctor's office.
• 1:53:39
  You are going to be pretty darn sure, and
• 1:53:42
  that you want your doctor to be using all
• 1:53:44
  kinds of plastic right plastic gloves
• 1:53:47
  plastic, everything, whatever, because
• 1:53:50
  you can see the package being open you
• 1:53:52
  know that it's sterile you know that
• 1:53:53
  it's, you know, so there are definitely
• 1:53:55
  places hospitals are one where we want to
• 1:53:59
  be using yes single use plastics and
• 1:54:02
  where they're really
• 1:54:03
  important for people's health.
• 1:54:06
  And, but then there are places where we
• 1:54:11
  don't need them, like if if for the
• 1:54:13
  majority of people who are who are
• 1:54:16
  healthy and have good motor function,
• 1:54:18
  they should be able to drink out of the
• 1:54:20
  glass without a straw, you don't use even
• 1:54:23
  a paper straw, really, right.
• 1:54:25
  And so, you know, it's to think about, I
• 1:54:29
  feel like, what are, I think as a
• 1:54:31
  society, we need to decide what are the
• 1:54:34
  types of plastics that we all admit, yes,
• 1:54:39
  actually, these are really important and
• 1:54:40
  in these situations this
• 1:54:42
  is when we want to use them.
• 1:54:44
  But that, you know, I don't need a
• 1:54:46
  plastic bag to carry my loaf of bread
• 1:54:49
  home from the store with me, you know,
• 1:54:51
  like I don't, I don't need a plastic
• 1:54:53
  straw in order from it from my glass when
• 1:54:57
  I go out, because I don't use when my
• 1:55:00
  guess is is most people don't
• 1:55:01
  use them when they're at home. Right.
• 1:55:04
  And so I think it's, I feel like that's
• 1:55:06
  the thing that we maybe need to get out
• 1:55:09
  is is to for for scientists and
• 1:55:12
  policymakers and conservationists to to
• 1:55:16
  more be more upfront about the fact that
• 1:55:19
  it's you know it's not just about the
• 1:55:21
  straw it's it's about
• 1:55:22
  all of these things that
• 1:55:23
  we really don't need to use so that we
• 1:55:27
  can be in the position to decide which
• 1:55:30
  ones we do want to use and what are the
• 1:55:33
  what's the value of those those items.
• 1:55:35
  Yeah, it's like prioritizing the value of
• 1:55:37
  exactly plastics right exactly because
• 1:55:39
  because I do think that we have gone a
• 1:55:42
  little bit overboard with things, you
• 1:55:44
  know, in some cases, maybe, and, and that
• 1:55:47
  you're in that all people have heard is
• 1:55:49
  don't use straws, but they haven't
• 1:55:51
  actually been informed.
• 1:55:52
  They haven't been informed about why that
• 1:55:55
  is the case and what
• 1:55:56
  is sort of behind it.
• 1:55:59
  Yeah, and I, you know, there's, there's
• 1:56:01
  also a whole nother aspect of this which
• 1:56:03
  which we haven't really talked about but
• 1:56:04
  it's the the fossil fuel aspect.
• 1:56:08
  And so all plastics that we use
• 1:56:11
  regardless of whether they're
• 1:56:13
  biodegradable or not, are derived from
• 1:56:16
  from fossil fuels. Yeah.
• 1:56:19
  And so the more that we use plastics, the
• 1:56:24
  more that we are are dwindling down our
• 1:56:27
  very limited supply
• 1:56:28
  of oil and natural gas.
• 1:56:33
  And so, and, and those are having all
• 1:56:35
  those other impacts that we talked about
• 1:56:36
  that are affected the ocean coral
• 1:56:38
  bleaching ocean acidification warming,
• 1:56:41
  all those other things and so there's,
• 1:56:43
  there's this underlying aspects about
• 1:56:46
  plastics that we tend
• 1:57:12
  to talk about as much there's the debris part which is huge in which we see.
• 1:57:12
  And so that's 30% of fossil fuel
• 1:57:15
  revenues, revenues to the fossil fuel
• 1:57:17
  industry is coming from plastics. That's,
• 1:57:20
  that's exactly, I mean a big portion,
• 1:57:22
  exactly a big portion of the natural gas
• 1:57:24
  that's being produced in my state of
• 1:57:26
  Pennsylvania gets shipped all around the,
• 1:57:30
  around the world in
• 1:57:31
  order to produce plastics.
• 1:57:34
  And so that's not is not necessarily
• 1:57:35
  being used to heat homes or to drive
• 1:57:37
  cars. It's going into plastics and then
• 1:57:40
  we just, you know, we use it once and we
• 1:57:42
  throw it away. And so, again, I think
• 1:57:45
  those are sort of societal questions,
• 1:57:48
  what, what do we as a society think is
• 1:57:51
  important and what do we, what do we want
• 1:57:53
  to have done and, and then I think that
• 1:57:55
  helps to drive policy but you know when
• 1:57:59
  policy doesn't necessarily
• 1:58:02
  have to go through the science.
• 1:58:04
  I think that's where the consumer has a
• 1:58:07
  lot of power and can really, really make
• 1:58:11
  a difference by their actions and what
• 1:58:15
  they purchase or don't purchase. And I
• 1:58:18
  think that that goes that does mean we
• 1:58:19
  see that often that can go a long way
• 1:58:22
  into making important changes happen.
• 1:58:27
  I mean, I think it's a, it's an
• 1:58:30
  interesting, like complex issue that
• 1:58:32
  we're, that we're in with this type of of
• 1:58:36
  things and again, I think it's the
• 1:58:37
  disconnection from the environment that a
• 1:58:40
  lot of people have these days in terms of
• 1:58:43
  let's not interrupt our daily lives to
• 1:58:46
  make these changes to help the ocean when
• 1:58:48
  we don't see a lot of things that are
• 1:58:49
  happening in the ocean for many of us who
• 1:58:51
  live in land, but we're all connected.
• 1:58:53
  connected. And I think when it comes to,
• 1:58:56
  I think you were right, right from the
• 1:58:57
  get go, Lisa, when you mentioned, like,
• 1:58:59
  it's about community, do things,
• 1:59:00
  community, do things local. You know,
• 1:59:03
  there used to be that saying that
• 1:59:03
  really, I think it hit home was, you
• 1:59:06
  know, it was an act local, you know,
• 1:59:08
  think globally. And it's, it's still
• 1:59:11
  range true today, we kind of, we don't
• 1:59:13
  say that as much, but it's still, you
• 1:59:15
  know, range true today. And, and all
• 1:59:17
  those things need to be done at a policy
• 1:59:19
  level at a federal and state and, and
• 1:59:21
  provincial level and local level, we
• 1:59:23
  still need to act. And we still need to
• 1:59:25
  understand that the way we work, the way
• 1:59:29
  we do things as a society will affect
• 1:59:32
  things down the road. And sometimes we
• 1:59:34
  don't have a lot of say in terms of what
• 1:59:36
  happens, but there are times where we can
• 1:59:38
  take care of our local places and
• 1:59:40
  make a difference. Now, there's a couple
• 1:59:42
  more questions I have as we, and this is
• 1:59:44
  a great conversation. I love this
• 1:59:46
  conversation. I can probably have this
• 1:59:47
  conversation for hours and hours and
• 1:59:48
  hours and hours, but I want to be mindful
• 1:59:49
  of your time. There's a couple questions.
• 1:59:51
  The first one is, as you're out in the
• 1:59:54
  field and doing things with your students
• 1:59:56
  and your colleagues, what's the
• 1:59:58
  most frustrating aspect of working with,
• 2:00:02
  you know, the looking at the effects of
• 2:00:04
  like microplastics and debris on coral
• 2:00:07
  reefs? What's the,
• 2:00:09
  what's what, and you're
• 2:00:10
  out there, what you like when you see
• 2:00:11
  stuff, as you mentioned before, sometimes
• 2:00:13
  it can be hard to sort of realize how
• 2:00:16
  much, you know, marine debris and
• 2:00:17
  microplastics are out there. What's the
• 2:00:19
  most frustrating thing for you as not
• 2:00:20
  only a scientist, but as a person, as
• 2:00:22
  someone who wants to
• 2:00:23
  protect the ocean and
• 2:00:24
  your, your, you know, the lab that you
• 2:00:26
  have, what's the most frustrating you see
• 2:00:28
  as a collective as a lab?
• 2:00:30
  That's a good question. I, I, I guess, I
• 2:00:34
  don't know, it's funny, I don't know that
• 2:00:35
  there's a lot that does frustrate, like,
• 2:00:37
  I feel like there's just so many kind of
• 2:00:40
  exciting things that we've done that we don't have time to get frustrated with.
• 2:00:41
  But I guess, I guess probably thinking
• 2:00:45
  about it more, it's really just the, the
• 2:00:49
  pervasiveness of it can can get get you
• 2:00:53
  down and frustrated. Where, you know,
• 2:00:56
  we're because we are seeing these things
• 2:00:59
  so regularly. There is, you know, so like
• 2:01:02
  I said, we've found things that have
• 2:01:04
  traveled very long distances. And at first, there's this like, oh my God, this is so cool. This came from, you know, a lot of people, you know, they're like, oh, I'm not going to do this.
• 2:01:15
  And, but then it sort of when it dawns on
• 2:01:19
  you, oh, wow, this thing has been in the
• 2:01:24
  ocean for for many, many years or many, many miles, kilometers. I think that can sometimes get kind of frustrating. Like I was saying before, I think that's a really interesting thing.
• 2:01:25
  You know, I guess a great question is that, you know, when you parts are planetyr 79
• 2:01:37
  and you actually, maybe if you're on the ocean that you are on the ocean 40 multiply the fourteen Your two months before.
• 2:01:44
  Two months before cause the picture.
• 2:01:47
  Yes.
• 2:01:47
  So. That, that.
• 2:01:47
  Well. So when we actually quantify it, we do
• 2:01:51
  see that the numbers reduce, but that you
• 2:01:54
  know, just looking at it, it's very hard
• 2:01:56
  sometimes to discern that
• 2:01:58
  there has been some improvement.
• 2:02:01
  And so that I think sometimes that can
• 2:02:03
  get a little bit frustrating for people
• 2:02:05
  for just anybody really.
• 2:02:07
  And is that the reduction is that the
• 2:02:09
  actions of people cleaning up or is that
• 2:02:11
  the actions of policies actually working?
• 2:02:14
  I think that's the action of people
• 2:02:16
  cleaning up. Okay, as far as I know, at
• 2:02:18
  least in that area, there hasn't been any
• 2:02:22
  real change in policy.
• 2:02:25
  And so I think it's that we are just
• 2:02:27
  cleaning up more regularly. And so we see
• 2:02:30
  it locally in Philadelphia. A colleague
• 2:02:33
  of mine has been working on more upstream
• 2:02:36
  areas of some local rivers.
• 2:02:40
  And there we've got some he has some
• 2:02:43
  evidence that shows that plastic bag
• 2:02:47
  bands that are happening in some
• 2:02:49
  municipalities, but not others may be
• 2:02:52
  having an impact on what
• 2:02:54
  they're finding in the river.
• 2:02:55
  So so there is some evidence. Yeah,
• 2:02:58
  policy is is having an impact. Yeah,
• 2:03:01
  which is nice. I can both, you know, the
• 2:03:03
  cleanups and, you know, the policies.
• 2:03:06
  It's nice to see that both have the like
• 2:03:07
  the evidence showing that they that they
• 2:03:09
  work. That's really I think that's really
• 2:03:11
  important for for communities to
• 2:03:13
  understand for people to understand
• 2:03:14
  because I think people are like, what's
• 2:03:15
  the what's the like, what can we do?
• 2:03:17
  There's there's microplastics all over
• 2:03:18
  the ocean in the Marian at Marianne a
• 2:03:20
  chance. Like there's nothing we can do
• 2:03:21
  about it. And sometimes we rely too much
• 2:03:24
  on government and expecting those
• 2:03:26
  policies to go through.
• 2:03:27
  But we don't actually go out and do the
• 2:03:29
  work ourselves or even work within our
• 2:03:30
  local councils and say, Hey, shouldn't we
• 2:03:33
  if this works, shouldn't we have a
• 2:03:35
  cleanup crew? Like, wouldn't it be great
• 2:03:37
  to have that cleanup crew like here in
• 2:03:38
  Burlington hire some students clean up
• 2:03:41
  the debris on a regular basis and measure
• 2:03:44
  it, see if it reduces, see if it works.
• 2:03:46
  Absolutely. Yeah, I think that's really
• 2:03:48
  important to tell people is that it
• 2:03:50
  actually works when it's done, even
• 2:03:53
  though it may not seem like
• 2:03:54
  it is that absolutely right.
• 2:03:56
  Right. Yeah, that's absolutely true is
• 2:03:58
  that, you know, and it partly I think
• 2:04:00
  it's just our memories that it's for sure
• 2:04:01
  to kind of remember what it
• 2:04:03
  was like the last time. Yeah.
• 2:04:05
  But yeah, if you if you take the time to
• 2:04:07
  collect the data and it doesn't take a
• 2:04:09
  lot of extra effort to do so, you know,
• 2:04:12
  there are a lot of different
• 2:04:14
  organizations online that have tally
• 2:04:17
  sheets for these kinds of cleanups.
• 2:04:20
  And so, you know, you can find something
• 2:04:21
  that suits you and then it's actually
• 2:04:24
  kind of fun when you're out there and you
• 2:04:27
  pick something up before you put in the
• 2:04:28
  bag, you just like make a
• 2:04:29
  little tally of whatever it is.
• 2:04:31
  Yep. Because that could also, you know,
• 2:04:34
  help you identify where
• 2:04:35
  things are coming from.
• 2:04:38
  But then it can also help, you know, the
• 2:04:40
  totals at least can help you see whether
• 2:04:43
  any new policies are having an impact and
• 2:04:46
  that's what we are starting to see.
• 2:04:48
  So really at sort of township or
• 2:04:50
  municipality levels or city levels,
• 2:04:54
  depending on sort of how your how your
• 2:04:56
  area is organized can can sometimes pass
• 2:05:00
  specific legislation around just their,
• 2:05:04
  their, for their area.
• 2:05:08
  And those like plastic bag bands or what
• 2:05:11
  have you, those can have really strong
• 2:05:14
  benefits to them over
• 2:05:17
  overtime, at least it seems like.
• 2:05:20
  Yeah, no, absolutely. I think I think it
• 2:05:22
  will. And I think we just need to
• 2:05:24
  reiterate that and communicate that fact
• 2:05:26
  to the people that it does actually work
• 2:05:28
  because I think a lot of people are just
• 2:05:29
  so disconnected from from that aspect.
• 2:05:32
  So last question I have for you. And this
• 2:05:34
  I find is an interesting one as well is
• 2:05:37
  what are you, what studies that you that
• 2:05:40
  how you have upcoming or that you are
• 2:05:41
  working on right now that may not have
• 2:05:44
  been published on yet what are you
• 2:05:45
  excited about studying looking at or
• 2:05:47
  maybe even some preliminary results that
• 2:05:50
  you're just like, oh, this
• 2:05:51
  is going to be interesting.
• 2:05:54
  Yeah, we have a couple different micro
• 2:05:55
  plastic related studies that will
• 2:05:56
  hopefully be coming out in the next few
• 2:05:59
  months or year a year maybe, but we have
• 2:06:01
  some of that we have, we've looked at
• 2:06:03
  micro plastics in lionfish, which are an
• 2:06:07
  invasive species in the Caribbean,
• 2:06:10
  and we have the opportunity for there's a
• 2:06:13
  some groups of people that cull them
• 2:06:16
  remove them from the
• 2:06:17
  environment in the Atlantic.
• 2:06:31
  And the total of the sort of in the 50s I
• 2:06:33
  think was the total number so decent
• 2:06:35
  amount. And they average about six micro
• 2:06:40
  plastics per fish. Wow. They're not like
• 2:06:43
  terribly big fish either. They're not
• 2:06:45
  huge. Yeah, they're not huge and size
• 2:06:48
  didn't seem to play a role in this at
• 2:06:50
  all, which was also kind of interesting,
• 2:06:52
  which we were not not expecting.
• 2:06:55
  So, you know, that could be one of the
• 2:06:59
  things that is difficult to do with micro
• 2:07:01
  plastics is sometimes, especially for
• 2:07:04
  organisms, you have to harm them in order
• 2:07:07
  to figure out what you have.
• 2:07:10
  And that's, you know, that's not ideal
• 2:07:12
  when all our species are already under
• 2:07:15
  threat for all variety of different
• 2:07:17
  reasons. So, you know, the invasive
• 2:07:19
  species maybe becomes an ideal target, we
• 2:07:22
  want to remove it anyway.
• 2:07:25
  And so then we can also study these other
• 2:07:27
  aspects of it. So that's one of the
• 2:07:29
  things that we've been we've been doing
• 2:07:30
  with a former grad student of mine.
• 2:07:34
  And then, you know, we're also kind of
• 2:07:36
  looking at this idea of when did micro
• 2:07:40
  plastics, like when do we first start
• 2:07:42
  seeing them in the environment. And so
• 2:07:46
  we've been taking cores where we sort of
• 2:07:48
  dig down into the sediment.
• 2:07:51
  Yeah, to look at different layers over
• 2:07:55
  time. And so far, we have not been able
• 2:07:59
  to get down deep enough, but we don't see
• 2:08:01
  any so we that's scary.
• 2:08:03
  That's scary. It's a lot. It could be.
• 2:08:06
  Yeah, I mean, it could be because these
• 2:08:08
  are mostly beach environments and sort of
• 2:08:10
  turn over quite a bit anyway so that
• 2:08:12
  might be the case. We're going to start
• 2:08:14
  looking at these and other in others are
• 2:08:15
  more stable environments, too.
• 2:08:19
  But, you know, I think that's kind of
• 2:08:21
  exciting. And I think that can have
• 2:08:23
  really can really make people sort of
• 2:08:28
  take notice of just how how far it's not
• 2:08:32
  just sort of on the surface and and
• 2:08:36
  spatial, but that there also is a lot of
• 2:08:40
  time behind this as well.
• 2:08:43
  And that I think, you know, that that can
• 2:08:46
  that really the time for us to stop some
• 2:08:50
  of these bad behaviors is now. Yeah, or
• 2:08:53
  we just kind of continue to push this
• 2:08:55
  into the future. And I think that kind of
• 2:08:57
  a study can really show help show that
• 2:08:59
  and help depict the sort of the
• 2:09:02
  timeliness of these kinds of problems.
• 2:09:06
  Yeah. So is it safe to say in your
• 2:09:09
  studies, your focus now a lot of it is on
• 2:09:13
  like the question is, is where is
• 2:09:16
  microplastics impacting the marine
• 2:09:18
  environment? Because it's not just coral
• 2:09:20
  reefs. It sounds like it's looking at,
• 2:09:21
  okay, let's look at where it starts and
• 2:09:23
  how far down does it go.
• 2:09:25
  Let's look at is it affecting, you know,
• 2:09:27
  invasive fish and using that as an
• 2:09:28
  opportunity to study, you know, as we're
• 2:09:30
  as we're taking them out. Is that safe to
• 2:09:32
  say that your question is like how do
• 2:09:34
  microplastics affect even the coastal
• 2:09:37
  environment or a tropical environment?
• 2:09:39
  Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, there's
• 2:09:41
  to me because of just how connected all
• 2:09:44
  of these things are in space, but also
• 2:09:48
  how they behave with each other.
• 2:09:49
  I think it it becomes in some ways it to
• 2:09:53
  me, I feel like I've sort of moved a
• 2:09:56
  little bit past corals in some ways.
• 2:09:59
  Yeah, I, you know, I know that there
• 2:10:01
  there are so many different other avenues
• 2:10:03
  that we can look at and we can still tie
• 2:10:06
  it back to the coral reef ecosystem.
• 2:10:08
  So yeah, I think that that that does that
• 2:10:11
  is accurate that we definitely have been
• 2:10:15
  moving into some of these other areas. A
• 2:10:18
  lot of it is driven by students actually,
• 2:10:20
  though, you know, sometimes it's students
• 2:10:22
  who come with their
• 2:10:23
  ideas and their interests.
• 2:10:27
  And so that helps to kind of broaden some
• 2:10:30
  of the things that we're also doing.
• 2:10:32
  Yeah, I love I love that aspect. I love
• 2:10:35
  what you're doing. I love what you and
• 2:10:36
  your labs are doing and even empowering this thing.
• 2:10:37
  And I think that brings a lot of interest
• 2:10:46
  and creativity into into your program.
• 2:10:49
  And I think it comes up with a lot of
• 2:10:50
  results that we've seen. And I'd love,
• 2:10:52
  Lisa, for you to come back on the
• 2:10:54
  podcast, talk about more of these studies
• 2:10:56
  so that we can see these results and they
• 2:10:57
  can people can hear them for themselves
• 2:10:59
  and hear some optimism from that policies
• 2:11:02
  work, beach cleanups work.
• 2:11:04
  It may not look like it, but it does. And
• 2:11:05
  I think that's that's wonderful. So I
• 2:11:07
  want to thank you so much for coming on
• 2:11:09
  the How to Protect the Ocean podcast.
• 2:11:11
  It's been it's been great to have you on.
• 2:11:12
  I can't wait to have you on again.
• 2:11:13
  Thank you. Thanks, Andrew. I was really
• 2:11:16
  nice to chat with you about all of this.
• 2:11:18
  Thank you, Lisa, for joining us on
• 2:11:19
  today's episode of the How to Protect the
• 2:11:21
  Ocean podcast. I can't wait to have you
• 2:11:22
  back to talk more about some of the
• 2:11:24
  research that's coming up and some of the
• 2:11:26
  stuff that you're going to be publishing
• 2:11:27
  on and getting results on.
• 2:11:28
  It sounds really incredible. It sounds
• 2:11:30
  like it's needed. It sounds like we need
• 2:11:32
  to know how the environment is effective
• 2:11:35
  so that we can put management and
• 2:11:36
  policies in place so that we can get rid
• 2:11:39
  of this stuff. Right? That's how
• 2:11:40
  important it is. That's why it's
• 2:11:42
  important to have scientists like Lisa
• 2:11:44
  and the people in her lab to go out and
• 2:11:46
  do this type of work. It's not easy work,
• 2:11:48
  even though, you know, working in Puerto
• 2:11:49
  Rico, working in Hawaii sounds like a
• 2:11:51
  wonderful trip. And I'm sure there are
• 2:11:52
  aspects of the trip and when they go in
• 2:11:54
  the field that are phenomenal. But it's also very difficult to do that.
• 2:11:58
  It's difficult to see environmental
• 2:11:59
  degradation like they see each and every
• 2:12:02
  day and to have that optimism that the
• 2:12:04
  stuff is working, you know, beach and
• 2:12:06
  coastal cleanups as well as policies in
• 2:12:09
  certain places that are working. We need
• 2:12:10
  to talk more about that. We need to get
• 2:12:12
  that more on podcasts like this on videos
• 2:12:14
  like you're watching on
• 2:12:15
  YouTube on social media.
• 2:12:18
  And what's important to see me put out is
• 2:12:18
  the fact that there are places where it
• 2:12:21
  works and it's unique to everybody, but
• 2:12:23
  we need to find out more of where these
• 2:12:26
  policies and these cleanups are actually
• 2:12:28
  working. And that's why it's important
• 2:12:29
  when you do a cleanup or you do a policy,
• 2:12:31
  you measure and evaluate the results.
• 2:12:34
  That's important part. And you adapt to
• 2:12:36
  the management and what is working for
• 2:12:38
  other people and what doesn't work for
• 2:12:39
  certain places around the world. So it's
• 2:12:42
  really important to connect everything
• 2:12:43
  together, but it's also important to act
• 2:12:45
  locally to think globally.
• 2:12:47
  That's what we're going to be talking
• 2:12:48
  more about in upcoming podcasts, getting
• 2:12:51
  that optimism back. Getting the fact is
• 2:12:53
  that we are connected to the ocean
• 2:12:54
  always, no matter where you live, where
• 2:12:56
  you live in Burlington, Ontario or live
• 2:12:57
  in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, or you
• 2:13:00
  live in Hawaii or Puerto Rico where you
• 2:13:01
  see the ocean every day. We're all
• 2:13:04
  connected to the ocean in some kind of
• 2:13:05
  way. And we need to make sure that our
• 2:13:07
  communities, our own regions are
• 2:13:09
  protected and we take
• 2:13:10
  care of them as a community.
• 2:13:12
  We can't just let other people do it. We
• 2:13:13
  can't let the marine conservationists and
• 2:13:15
  the conservationists and the scientists
• 2:13:16
  leave it up to them to do it. We have to
• 2:13:18
  do this. We have to take care of our
• 2:13:20
  local area. And that's including myself
• 2:13:21
  to need to be more connected to where we
• 2:13:23
  are. But that's what we're going to talk
• 2:13:25
  about in future episodes. But I hope you
• 2:13:27
  enjoyed this episode. Lisa was such a
• 2:13:29
  great communicator. Want to have her back
• 2:13:31
  on soon. And I told her after I said, you
• 2:13:33
  should be on more podcasts. You should be
• 2:13:34
  doing more of this because people need to
• 2:13:36
  know what you're up to. Because I think
• 2:13:37
  it's really important.
• 2:13:39
  But also I want to thank Lisa. I want to
• 2:13:40
  thank her lab for the work that they do.
• 2:13:42
  And I want to thank you for listening to
• 2:13:44
  this episode of the how to protect the
• 2:13:45
  ocean podcast. If you want to know more
• 2:13:47
  about how to protect the ocean, you can
• 2:13:49
  subscribe to our YouTube channel. You can
• 2:13:52
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• 2:13:54
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• 2:13:56
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• 2:13:58
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• 2:14:00
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• 2:14:02
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• 2:14:12
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• 2:14:14
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• 2:14:20
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• 2:14:21
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• 2:14:22
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• 2:14:25
  questions or any concerns, you can email
• 2:14:27
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• 2:14:30
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• 2:14:32
  That's at how to protect the ocean. I
• 2:14:34
  want to thank you so much for joining me
• 2:14:36
  on today's episode of the how to protect
• 2:14:37
  the ocean podcast. Have a great day.
• 2:14:39
  We'll talk to you next
• 2:14:39
  time and have a conservation.