Latest / Podcast on the Brink / POTB 560: A brief IU-Ohio State preview and big picture program thoughts with Ryan Corazza

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POTB 560: A brief IU-Ohio State preview and big picture program thoughts with Ryan Corazza · Podcast on the Brink

0:17
Speaker 1: Welcome back to a new episode of Podcast on the Brink. Friday,
0:23
Speaker 1: March sixth, Indiana Basketball concludes the regular season this weekend
0:29
Speaker 1: over in Columbus, Ohio against the Ohio State Buckeyes, who
0:32
Speaker 1: are suddenly kind of foot places with Indiana. If you
0:35
Speaker 1: looked at the bracketology numbers a couple three or four
0:38
Speaker 1: weeks ago, it would have been Ohio State on the
0:41
Speaker 1: outside looking in with Indiana kind of in that nine
0:43
Speaker 1: to ten seed range. It's the opposite now Ohio State.
0:47
Speaker 1: Most of the projections have them in Indiana on the
0:49
Speaker 1: outside looking in, so obviously a big game from bubble perspective.
0:54
Speaker 1: I want to talk a little bit about that and
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Speaker 1: then just some bigger picture things with today's guest on
0:58
Speaker 1: the Podcast on the Brank, Ryan Cross of Inside the Ryan,
1:01
Speaker 1: Welcome back to the show. Always good to see you
1:04
Speaker 1: continued outstanding work with the minute after in film session,
1:07
Speaker 1: but I wanted to just get you back on for
1:10
Speaker 1: some of these big picture thoughts. But first off, how
1:12
Speaker 1: you doing today.
1:14
Speaker 3: I'm good. I'm good. Yeah.
1:15
Speaker 2: Kind of crazy that the season is. The regular season's
1:18
Speaker 2: almost done. It kind of he kind of felt like
1:21
Speaker 2: it flew by a little bit to me, usually I
1:23
Speaker 2: feel like in February I can kind of drag on
1:25
Speaker 2: a bit, but yeah, we're here in Indiana. Is in
1:28
Speaker 2: a familiar position. Are they going to be in the
1:32
Speaker 2: tournament or are they going to be out?
1:34
Speaker 1: So yeah, I want to get more into that and
1:38
Speaker 1: kind of just what maybe needs to happen moving forward
1:42
Speaker 1: to get the program out of this position where they're
1:44
Speaker 1: perpetually on the bubble. But obviously this streak that India,
1:48
Speaker 1: this nut streak, this stretch of India is just kind
1:51
Speaker 1: of navigated here with the four game losing streak, I
1:54
Speaker 1: think most people felt like going into that that the
1:58
Speaker 1: Illinois game and the Purdue game were like the losses,
2:00
Speaker 1: and you look to the schedule before the season, going
2:02
Speaker 1: into both of those places and trying to win difficult
2:05
Speaker 1: Michigan State game two was another one where they were
2:07
Speaker 1: an underdog, but really the Northwestern game really stands out
2:11
Speaker 1: from the perspective of that was a game Indian absolutely
2:14
Speaker 1: needed to win, did not get the job done. But
2:16
Speaker 1: over that four game stretches you watched this team, is
2:20
Speaker 1: there one or two things you can point to and
2:22
Speaker 1: say they didn't do X or Y consistently enough to
2:29
Speaker 1: maybe in the games they lost be more competitive. And
2:31
Speaker 1: then the Northwestern game in terms of execution in the
2:34
Speaker 1: second half. I was watching that one up close, and
2:37
Speaker 1: it kind of felt like and I asked Devresis, I
2:41
Speaker 1: think in the post game after that game. They've had
2:44
Speaker 1: so many stretches this season where they've had a team down.
2:49
Speaker 1: I don't know exactly how much much they had Northwestern
2:51
Speaker 1: down there, maybe thirteen at one point, but they've had
2:53
Speaker 1: other games. In the Nebraska game, they had them down sixteen,
2:56
Speaker 1: And it just feels like this team gets to a
2:58
Speaker 1: point where they have team kind of vulnerable, but they're
3:01
Speaker 1: just not good enough to put them away. And then
3:04
Speaker 1: when that doesn't happen, they have a cold streak for
3:06
Speaker 1: maybe five or six minutes, the team gets back in
3:08
Speaker 1: the game, and then they don't throw have enough to
3:10
Speaker 1: push over the edge. So just kind of big picture
3:12
Speaker 1: thoughts on that four game stretch, what you saw from
3:14
Speaker 1: an x's and o's perspective maybe, and what prevented them
3:16
Speaker 1: from playing better during that stretch.
3:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess even the zoom out even farther from
3:23
Speaker 2: this four game stretch, it's just been a season where
3:27
Speaker 2: the margins have kind of been razor thin on either
3:30
Speaker 2: side of the aisle, right, and in the long term
3:33
Speaker 2: of a season, unless you're you know, going undefeated or
3:38
Speaker 2: are hyper elite, you're gonna have games that your favor
3:41
Speaker 2: to win that you don't win, in game that your
3:44
Speaker 2: favorite favored to lose that you do win. And I
3:46
Speaker 2: think Indiana just hasn't been on the right side of
3:50
Speaker 2: enough of those this year, Like, for instance, that Northwestern
3:53
Speaker 2: game losing that was kind of sot demoralizing because they
3:56
Speaker 2: didn't get that Nebraska win earlier in the season, right
3:58
Speaker 2: when they had that big lead at the beginning in
4:00
Speaker 2: the second half. You know, I even look back at
4:02
Speaker 2: that Kentucky game now where they were right in that
4:04
Speaker 2: in the second in the second half, you know, you
4:06
Speaker 2: look at where Kentucky season's gone. And so that Northwestern
4:09
Speaker 2: loss doesn't sting as much if they're able to just
4:12
Speaker 2: as you said, in some of these games where they
4:14
Speaker 2: were in it in the second half or had the
4:16
Speaker 2: lead and then just kind of fell apart.
4:18
Speaker 3: And so that's kind of where I think this team
4:21
Speaker 3: has been.
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Speaker 2: If if you kind of look at the two sides
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Speaker 2: of the coin, it's like the elite this team is
4:27
Speaker 2: not elite. There's a group of elite teams that have
4:30
Speaker 2: beaten them pretty handily that are in the league.
4:33
Speaker 3: You look at a Louisville as well, they were beaten
4:35
Speaker 3: pretty handily in that game. And then they've been able.
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Speaker 2: Though, to the bottom part of the Big Ten. They've
4:42
Speaker 2: been able to go and win those games even on
4:44
Speaker 2: the road. They've beaten the Rutgers, they've beaten the Maryland right.
4:47
Speaker 2: But they're just in that messy middle of the Big
4:50
Speaker 2: Ten where you could be in the bubble, you could
4:53
Speaker 2: be like the last Big Ten team in and once
4:56
Speaker 2: you get to this part of the season and your
4:57
Speaker 2: resume is what it is, those other these games at
5:02
Speaker 2: the end of the season can kind of really define things.
5:04
Speaker 2: I mean, I even look back, like think about last year,
5:06
Speaker 2: there was a stretch where it looked like Indiana was
5:07
Speaker 2: going to be in the tournament, and there's these three
5:09
Speaker 2: or four game stretches kind of in like January, February, March.
5:12
Speaker 2: It's like, oh, the team's in. Well, then they play
5:14
Speaker 2: this and now they're out right, And I think the
5:16
Speaker 2: interesting thing about heading into this last game now though,
5:20
Speaker 2: is actually even Brennan wrote about it. Our old friend
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Speaker 2: wrote about it this morning in his Buzzer newsletter that
5:29
Speaker 2: unlike a lot of games at the end of the
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Speaker 2: season where it's like one game doesn't really define it,
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Speaker 2: He's saying, and obviously a long time Bubblewatch writer, and
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Speaker 2: nowhere of the bracketology world is like this, Actually Indiana, Indiana,
5:41
Speaker 2: this Indiana Ohio State game can actually be a game
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Speaker 2: that might put one team in in, one team out.
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Speaker 2: So and I also feel like what your thoughts are
5:50
Speaker 2: on this, but this feels like one of the games where, yes,
5:53
Speaker 2: Ohio State's better, but they're not up in that Illinois
5:57
Speaker 2: Michigan Michigan State realm where if they were going on
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Speaker 2: the road to play one of those teams, I feel
6:02
Speaker 2: like indianas odds would be quite low. But this one,
6:05
Speaker 2: it feels like there's a little bit more of a shot.
6:07
Speaker 2: Even though I'm not going to sit here and say
6:09
Speaker 2: that Ohio State's the worst team as a post Indiana.
6:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would agree with that. I mean, they've they've
6:16
Speaker 1: lost i think three home games this season, which you know,
6:20
Speaker 1: obviously every team besides well, I mean Michigan's even lost
6:24
Speaker 1: a home game. I'm pretty sure every Big Ten team
6:26
Speaker 1: at this point has lost a home game at some point,
6:28
Speaker 1: but three, I mean, that's a pretty solid number. I
6:31
Speaker 1: will say the one thing about going to that particular
6:35
Speaker 1: environment several times in the past is to watch games.
6:38
Speaker 1: It's not that intimidating road environment that you see at
6:41
Speaker 1: Purdue and you see at Michigan State. You see, I
6:43
Speaker 1: don't know, it's more of a for those haven't been there,
6:46
Speaker 1: it's more of kind of a pro style type arena.
6:48
Speaker 1: The environment is very sterile. Obviously, I think there's probably
6:53
Speaker 1: gonna be a little bit more buzz there about this
6:56
Speaker 1: game now that Ohio State's turned it around here late
6:59
Speaker 1: in the sea't have a chance to really kind of
7:01
Speaker 1: punch their ticket. But overall, in general, there's just not
7:04
Speaker 1: a ton of excitement about Ohio State basketball with that
7:07
Speaker 1: fan base and showing up the games.
7:08
Speaker 3: And I know that.
7:09
Speaker 1: I mean there's even been and know Deebler took over
7:12
Speaker 1: I think it was the end of two seasons ago.
7:14
Speaker 1: Last season didn't make the tournament, but there's even been
7:16
Speaker 1: talk of just kind of what his futures looking like.
7:19
Speaker 1: So this is a pretty big game for their team,
7:21
Speaker 1: their players, and they've got some experienced guys. So I
7:25
Speaker 1: agree with you overall that it's a game where you
7:27
Speaker 1: look at and say, it's not that gigantic task of
7:31
Speaker 1: going to Michigan or Michigan State, but it will be
7:35
Speaker 1: a tough game. They have really good guards. The matchup
7:39
Speaker 1: that really concerns me the most. I'll look at you know,
7:41
Speaker 1: I did the previous this morning wrote it just kind
7:43
Speaker 1: of looked at their team. Devin Royal, who's a guy
7:47
Speaker 1: has battled a few injuries this season, but he's back. He's,
7:49
Speaker 1: you know, six to six guy that scores really well
7:52
Speaker 1: around the rim. And they also play out a freshman
7:54
Speaker 1: a Maury buying them who's six foot eight. So Nick
7:57
Speaker 1: Dorn's gonna have to guard one of those two guys.
7:59
Speaker 1: And we've seen throughout the season Dorrin struggled defensively, and
8:05
Speaker 1: I just don't know. I think Ohio State's good enough
8:09
Speaker 1: offensively to put just a ton of pressure on Indiana's defense.
8:12
Speaker 1: And I know they've played better against Minnesota, but you
8:15
Speaker 1: just kind of look at the points for possession that
8:16
Speaker 1: they've given up against these top teams in the Big Ten,
8:19
Speaker 1: and Ohio State's got the fifth best offense. I think
8:22
Speaker 1: Indiana's going to have to be at its best defensively
8:25
Speaker 1: to have a chance to win this game, because I
8:27
Speaker 1: think Ohio State has has too many weapons. Ruce Storton's
8:29
Speaker 1: obviously a guy that I think can get Connor in
8:31
Speaker 1: right in foul trouble. They might have to play connorway
8:34
Speaker 1: more than they have been lately. Lamar Wilkerson's really gonna
8:37
Speaker 1: have to work defensively against John Mobley. It's not one
8:40
Speaker 1: of those games where Wilkerson's just gonna be able to
8:42
Speaker 1: come out and score twenty five and that's going to
8:44
Speaker 1: be his impact the game. He's gonna actually have to
8:46
Speaker 1: hold down Mobile because Mobley's a guy that's coming off
8:48
Speaker 1: a game at Penn State where he hit eight of
8:50
Speaker 1: nine three, so he can also go out and get
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Speaker 1: twenty five. So it's it's a game where I definitely
8:56
Speaker 1: think Indiana has a chance if they play their best,
8:59
Speaker 1: but I think a lot of things are going to
9:00
Speaker 1: have to go right, and kind of speaking to what
9:04
Speaker 1: we mentioned earlier, this is a game that really they
9:08
Speaker 1: shouldn't be I guess in the position where this game
9:10
Speaker 1: has so much riding on it because they didn't take
9:13
Speaker 1: advantage of the other opportunities. I think you made a
9:15
Speaker 1: good point with the Kentucky game. I think they were
9:17
Speaker 1: up nine to half in that game. The Minnesota game
9:20
Speaker 1: on the road is another one where they had a
9:24
Speaker 1: lead and just kind of collapsed in the second half.
9:27
Speaker 1: Obviously in the nebrask game. To note, if they win
9:29
Speaker 1: one or I mean that those four games right there,
9:31
Speaker 1: just off the top of my head, If they win
9:32
Speaker 1: one or two of those games, we're not having this conversation.
9:35
Speaker 1: But I think overall it just kind of speaks to
9:38
Speaker 1: this roster when you look at what it is and
9:42
Speaker 1: what you can count on consistently, there's just not enough
9:46
Speaker 1: there that you can say on a game to game
9:49
Speaker 1: basis is going to show up. We saw a stretch
9:51
Speaker 1: earlier in the season where Nick dorm was really good.
9:53
Speaker 1: He's had a couple moments lately where he shot the
9:56
Speaker 1: ball better, but he's been inconsistent. Samuel Lexis Is, I mean,
10:00
Speaker 1: if you want to really talk about beyond Wilkerson defrees,
10:03
Speaker 1: who the most consistent player has kind of been here
10:05
Speaker 1: in the back half of the Big Ten schedule, it's
10:06
Speaker 1: been Samballexis. Yeah, because offensively, no one else is really
10:10
Speaker 1: doing much consistently, So I think it's important for him
10:12
Speaker 1: to have a big game. But I don't know how
10:15
Speaker 1: much more you want to dig into this game. But
10:17
Speaker 1: you know, I'm thinking just long, bigger picture with this program.
10:22
Speaker 1: The more I've thought about things, and I think a
10:26
Speaker 1: lot of this stuff has discarded a bubble into my mind.
10:28
Speaker 1: When we had to, you know, sit down a couple
10:31
Speaker 1: was it last week of the week before the time's
10:32
Speaker 1: kind of flying by now and running together. It was
10:35
Speaker 1: the day that Ryan Carr was there for his first
10:38
Speaker 1: game in person, and he had not necessarily stepped off
10:41
Speaker 1: the job at the Pacers, but he was his last
10:43
Speaker 1: week at the Pacers. He came to the IU game.
10:46
Speaker 1: For those unfamiliar with the name Ryan Carr maybe hadn't
10:48
Speaker 1: been fallen as closely. He's the new executive director of
10:51
Speaker 1: basketball and we had a chance it was a small
10:54
Speaker 1: group setting up in an office in the Cuban Center
10:57
Speaker 1: just to talk to him for a little bit about
10:59
Speaker 1: Ross Struck instruction and what this team kind of needs
11:02
Speaker 1: to do moving forward. But it really and I talked
11:05
Speaker 1: about this a little bit last week with Scott Agnes
11:08
Speaker 1: on the podcast because he's covered the Pacers for a
11:10
Speaker 1: long time, just about cars impact, But it really kind
11:13
Speaker 1: of made me look bigger picture at this program where
11:17
Speaker 1: things are. I think people are really looking for a
11:20
Speaker 1: quick fix. And you know, I've already seen our community
11:23
Speaker 1: run inside the hall, there's people, you know, obviously disappointed
11:26
Speaker 1: the season and talking about how big next season is
11:28
Speaker 1: and they got to get the portal right, and those
11:30
Speaker 1: things are true. But I think the thing that's kind
11:33
Speaker 1: of been in my head and I want to get
11:36
Speaker 1: your thoughts in this, there's no quick fix at this
11:39
Speaker 1: point for this program. The reality is they've been in
11:43
Speaker 1: the tournament two times. If they don't make it this year,
11:46
Speaker 1: I think it'll be two times in the last ten years. Obviously,
11:49
Speaker 1: the fan support is still very good, that the resources
11:53
Speaker 1: are very good, but and I think DeVries has done
11:57
Speaker 1: some things in terms of infrastructure and kind of how
12:00
Speaker 1: they want to build things to maybe change. I mean,
12:02
Speaker 1: there's a whole new staff with the basketball program. A
12:04
Speaker 1: lot of the people that have been there for a
12:05
Speaker 1: long time are no longer there. But the reality is
12:10
Speaker 1: this program has a long way to go. Just to
12:12
Speaker 1: everyone says, well, the baseline should be making the tournament
12:15
Speaker 1: every year. They haven't been that for at least ten
12:17
Speaker 1: years now or more. And to get back to there.
12:20
Speaker 1: I think some basic simple things have to change before
12:23
Speaker 1: we kind of dive into kind of what I see there.
12:26
Speaker 1: Just your big picture thoughts on that and how this
12:31
Speaker 1: program has just kind of been stuck in the same
12:32
Speaker 1: spot and what maybe needs to be different moving forward.
12:36
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think specifically for car what's stuck up to
12:40
Speaker 2: me the most. I mean, the first thing is, I
12:43
Speaker 2: really do feel like it is a role that in
12:46
Speaker 2: today's world in college basketball, you absolutely need somebody that's
12:50
Speaker 2: just dedicated to personnel. I think the life of a
12:53
Speaker 2: college basketball coach, head coach, assistant coach is a tough
12:56
Speaker 2: job and to have to manage game to game stuff,
13:01
Speaker 2: but then also the crazy world of the portal mixed
13:04
Speaker 2: with you know, doing the high school recruiting as well.
13:07
Speaker 2: It's a lot and I think to kind of streamline it.
13:09
Speaker 2: And because it's for better or worse, it's becoming more
13:15
Speaker 2: of a pro model where you have to give money
13:17
Speaker 2: to certain caliber players and how do you choose how
13:21
Speaker 2: to do that? How do you work again in a
13:23
Speaker 2: system that there aren't really any clearly defined rules yet
13:26
Speaker 2: because there's not we haven't just said these are employees,
13:30
Speaker 2: here's a collective bargaining agreement. Here's something we're all working against, right,
13:34
Speaker 2: And so I think, as it is kind of moving
13:37
Speaker 2: from hopefully a kind of a chaotic world into something
13:40
Speaker 2: that's a little bit more structured, you need somebody to
13:42
Speaker 2: be able to navigate that. So I think that is
13:45
Speaker 2: a step in the right direction. I found it most
13:48
Speaker 2: curious that it does seem like, you know, Dolsin and
13:51
Speaker 2: Car have a relationship as both former IU managers, but
13:55
Speaker 2: really Devirees and Car at least how Car is you know,
13:59
Speaker 2: watching the whole sit down interview there described it is.
14:04
Speaker 2: It was just kind of like a growing friendship that
14:06
Speaker 2: they had. And I think these two really aligned on
14:10
Speaker 2: kind of like personality and values, and that's something with
14:14
Speaker 2: Devrees that I think really kind of sticks out. You know,
14:17
Speaker 2: he's had the strength and conditioning and some assistants that
14:20
Speaker 2: have come with him along the way, right, And it's
14:22
Speaker 2: more of like a longer term foundation. When you think
14:25
Speaker 2: about the beginning of the Mike Woodson era, d Mada
14:28
Speaker 2: came in to help, he was gone, you know, Dane
14:30
Speaker 2: Feife was there for a year then he was gone, right,
14:33
Speaker 2: So there is a little bit more of maybe a
14:37
Speaker 2: deliberate and an intentional foundation, and this was a relationship
14:40
Speaker 2: that he built over time with Car and then all
14:42
Speaker 2: of a sudden he's kind of like, hey, would you
14:45
Speaker 2: want this job? And the fact that Car has been
14:48
Speaker 2: with the Pacers for twenty plus years and has had
14:51
Speaker 2: some really long term relationships, and you could see in
14:53
Speaker 2: that interview he was even emotional in the interview talking
14:56
Speaker 2: about like my last day there and like thinking about
14:59
Speaker 2: all the time he's and everything that he's done, the
15:02
Speaker 2: fact that he chose to leave that job to do
15:04
Speaker 2: this in an uncertain time in college basketball, but kind
15:08
Speaker 2: of felt the confidence within talking to Defrees about what
15:11
Speaker 2: the role could be to kind of like step into
15:13
Speaker 2: it and change. To me, speaks a lot of audience
15:17
Speaker 2: about just degrees as a person, of the relationship that
15:20
Speaker 2: he made with Car, but also that there was enough
15:24
Speaker 2: there to be like, Okay, I can transfer these skills
15:27
Speaker 2: now down to this level, and yes, there is some
15:29
Speaker 2: learning to do, but there's a lot of relationships I
15:31
Speaker 2: have with agents and then just knowing how to go
15:35
Speaker 2: after players and look at their strengths and weaknesses and
15:38
Speaker 2: how about my big binder on all these guys. I
15:39
Speaker 2: think it is going to be good. However, I think
15:45
Speaker 2: kind of to your point, this sort of restless nature
15:49
Speaker 2: of the fan base and how Indiana hasn't really been
15:53
Speaker 2: in the tournament much and this is sort of laying
15:55
Speaker 2: a longer term foundation when there's no patience for it.
15:59
Speaker 3: So I think that it's kind of the tension right now.
16:01
Speaker 2: I mean, I do agree that there's still the fan support,
16:03
Speaker 2: but you know, you look at what has happened with
16:05
Speaker 2: football this year and a lot of eyeballs going there,
16:07
Speaker 2: and you know the reality is too. I mean, I
16:10
Speaker 2: was not physically an attendance at any games this year,
16:13
Speaker 2: but from you know, talking with you and what other
16:16
Speaker 2: people are saying, there are less fans in that stadium,
16:19
Speaker 2: especially in the balconies than there's been in the last
16:21
Speaker 2: several years as well. So it is kind of a
16:24
Speaker 2: situation now where I think the patience has run out
16:28
Speaker 2: for some people. And frankly, I think how Mike Woodson
16:32
Speaker 2: went about things at the end of his tenure also
16:34
Speaker 2: created a little bit of a friction there as well,
16:37
Speaker 2: and so there's sort of a yeah, the tension between
16:40
Speaker 2: where some fans are at and wanting to just be like,
16:43
Speaker 2: can't we just get in the tournament versus what happened
16:47
Speaker 2: this year and trying to lay some longer term tracks
16:50
Speaker 2: down is kind of where I kind of see where
16:53
Speaker 2: things are at right now.
16:54
Speaker 1: So what do you think the balance is moving forward
16:57
Speaker 1: in terms of acquire players as opposed to developing the
17:03
Speaker 1: players that you get, like via high school recruiting. Because
17:05
Speaker 1: one of the biggest thing that I look at with
17:08
Speaker 1: this season's team, and I kind of understand why Devrez
17:13
Speaker 1: did it because he wanted to get experienced guys. He
17:16
Speaker 1: wanted to try to come out and make the tournament.
17:19
Speaker 1: But it was also a risk from the standpoint of,
17:22
Speaker 1: all right, if you're going to go senior and upperclassmen
17:25
Speaker 1: completely basically in terms of who you're playing, you better
17:28
Speaker 1: make the tournament. Now, they still could make the tournament
17:31
Speaker 1: and there's a payoff there, But on the flip side
17:34
Speaker 1: of that, if you don't make the tournament, all of
17:36
Speaker 1: a sudden, all these players are gone, you didn't really
17:38
Speaker 1: develop any of the younger players that you have on
17:41
Speaker 1: this roster, and you're kind of face with the prospect
17:44
Speaker 1: of next year. How do you approach it in terms of, Okay,
17:47
Speaker 1: I've got this pretty solid freshman class that I've recruited.
17:51
Speaker 1: I hope I can bring some guys that contributed to
17:54
Speaker 1: this team back so I at least have a somewhat
17:56
Speaker 1: of some continuity. But you're also going to have to
17:59
Speaker 1: go heavy in the portal. And so the interesting thing,
18:02
Speaker 1: and I think the thing that he really needs to
18:04
Speaker 1: figure out for next season is how do you balance
18:08
Speaker 1: bringing in because I mean, looking at this realistically, I
18:12
Speaker 1: think they need four or five starters from the portal.
18:15
Speaker 1: Now I'm not saying they all have to be seniors,
18:16
Speaker 1: but they're gonna need players that can come in and
18:20
Speaker 1: play heavy minutes and be contributors if they want to
18:23
Speaker 1: be better next season. But I'm just kind of curious
18:28
Speaker 1: for your thoughts on what they failed to do maybe
18:32
Speaker 1: from this year perspective, in terms of having any younger
18:36
Speaker 1: players that they've really developed. And I mean Nick Dorn,
18:39
Speaker 1: I guess you can look at and say he's a
18:40
Speaker 1: guy you could potentially keep bring back for next year
18:42
Speaker 1: and as a sixth man, maybe French starter type guy.
18:46
Speaker 1: Sisly's the guy that played.
18:47
Speaker 3: A little bit.
18:47
Speaker 1: But there's also this kind of this. I don't think
18:52
Speaker 1: it's a sustainable model for Indiana basketball. And I think
18:55
Speaker 1: Carr talked about this to continue to just cycle through
19:00
Speaker 1: five or six portal seniors every year and then just
19:03
Speaker 1: keep doing that as a plan. I think a better
19:06
Speaker 1: scenario for balancing your team, balancing your roster long term
19:10
Speaker 1: is to take some of these freshmen next year, play
19:12
Speaker 1: them a little bit, at least develop them, and then
19:15
Speaker 1: hope by years three or four you at least have
19:17
Speaker 1: a solid foundation. I think when you have four or
19:20
Speaker 1: five guys that you can continue to retain and count on,
19:23
Speaker 1: then you hit the portal and add that one or
19:26
Speaker 1: two three impact pieces and then you have something rolling.
19:29
Speaker 1: But I just think from right right now in many ways,
19:33
Speaker 1: I think one thing that I've heard from fans and
19:36
Speaker 1: people have emailed me, people have sent me message on
19:38
Speaker 1: social media and the community is that they feel like
19:42
Speaker 1: next year is almost looks like it's starting over again,
19:44
Speaker 1: and like what was the point of this season?
19:48
Speaker 3: Well, number of.
19:49
Speaker 2: Things I unpacked there. I'd say this if this also
19:53
Speaker 2: bleeds into like the short term versus long term. And
19:56
Speaker 2: this year there was one freshman on the team that
19:59
Speaker 2: was a whole over from the Mike Woodson's staff, and
20:03
Speaker 2: and he committed to them, and he stayed so this year,
20:07
Speaker 2: there was also only one building block younger very young
20:12
Speaker 2: billing block, fresh and freshman builling block. Kind of in
20:14
Speaker 2: in that regard, although I guess you could say you
20:17
Speaker 2: could say the two players that came from Europe, I
20:20
Speaker 2: guess are both freshmen two. But obviously they have not
20:23
Speaker 2: played at all and we'll see if they even like
20:27
Speaker 2: come back next year. But I guess looking at the
20:31
Speaker 2: high school model, but again, the the European model is
20:33
Speaker 2: certainly something a lot of teams are using. Is next year,
20:37
Speaker 2: if Sissy does come back, and if you have Carvalla,
20:40
Speaker 2: you have man her to you Moody, then there's four
20:44
Speaker 2: younger players that you've gone and identify that have been
20:47
Speaker 2: committed to the program before just the portal opens, right,
20:50
Speaker 2: And that's how this builds. This is this is the
20:53
Speaker 2: longer term thing. Is you get a couple freshmen every
20:55
Speaker 2: year and if they stay in the program and so
20:57
Speaker 2: this this again, this you bridget having to build that
21:01
Speaker 2: as you're still supplementing. So I think next year is
21:04
Speaker 2: going to be a situation where they are going to
21:07
Speaker 2: have players on this roster that will be back next year,
21:10
Speaker 2: maybe not enough to satisfy what some people like but
21:13
Speaker 2: this this was like kind of one hundred percent change
21:15
Speaker 2: over this year. I think next year, I'm just kind
21:18
Speaker 2: of rough estimate here. Maybe it's more seventy. You know,
21:22
Speaker 2: twenty five is at least in the bag, and then
21:24
Speaker 2: you go get in another seventy five and that's still
21:26
Speaker 2: going to be a lot. But you that's how it
21:28
Speaker 2: like kind of builds over time, and then maybe it's
21:29
Speaker 2: more of a fifty to fifty thing the year after that. Right,
21:32
Speaker 2: And so I do agree that just going and get
21:35
Speaker 2: even if you're getting really experienced seniors and great players, like,
21:38
Speaker 2: it's tough to sustain.
21:39
Speaker 3: I mean, I haven't thinking about it.
21:41
Speaker 2: In the old model of this, who did this John Calipari, Right,
21:44
Speaker 2: every year he went and got a bunch of five
21:46
Speaker 2: star blue ship kids that were you know, coming in
21:49
Speaker 2: for a lot of one and done. Some years you
21:51
Speaker 2: get an Anthony Davis, you win a title. Other years
21:54
Speaker 2: you don't even make you know, you don't make the
21:56
Speaker 2: tournament or it doesn't go as well. Right, And so
21:58
Speaker 2: I do agree that the isain ability of that, because
22:01
Speaker 2: there's so much changeover.
22:03
Speaker 3: It is tough to do and not sustainable.
22:07
Speaker 2: But if you're trying to build a sustainable model, especially
22:10
Speaker 2: in such a transient culture in this sport right now,
22:14
Speaker 2: you have to preach long term, which again I think
22:17
Speaker 2: just kind of bubbles up to what I was saying
22:18
Speaker 2: is that, like people, people don't want to have that
22:21
Speaker 2: patience right now, and so that's kind of the tricky
22:23
Speaker 2: part of it right now for the Indiana basketball family,
22:28
Speaker 2: as it were.
22:31
Speaker 1: How much of that pressure to kind of win immediately
22:34
Speaker 1: or in the short short term do you think has
22:38
Speaker 1: been increased by what football has done.
22:44
Speaker 3: Well by whom like? I don't think.
22:46
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know, but I don't think the
22:49
Speaker 2: staff right now is like, oh, football is doing great, Therefore,
22:52
Speaker 2: like I feel more pressure. Honestly, I think there's less
22:55
Speaker 2: of a spotlight. So there's almost less pressure. Football had
22:58
Speaker 2: been what it had to stort historically been this year
23:01
Speaker 2: and fans were just kind of pining their hope only
23:03
Speaker 2: on basketball. I actually think that would be a worse situation.
23:07
Speaker 2: I do think it's very easy for fans and just
23:11
Speaker 2: observers to say, oh, well, this program turned around really quick,
23:14
Speaker 2: and you know, why can't ours right? And I think
23:18
Speaker 2: if you're looking specifically at Signetian football, well that's kind
23:22
Speaker 2: of like a once in a generation her once anit.
23:26
Speaker 1: But I see that argument for some people. From some
23:30
Speaker 1: people it's like Signetti did it, why can't basketball do it?
23:33
Speaker 1: And you have to remind people that. And I've said
23:36
Speaker 1: this on the show, and I had my dad on
23:39
Speaker 1: I don't know how long ago. He called it the
23:41
Speaker 1: best coaching job he's ever seen in college football since
23:44
Speaker 1: he's been covering the sport going back to like the seventies.
23:46
Speaker 1: He can ever he can ever remember. So to compare
23:49
Speaker 1: the two, are it's completely you know, Apple's to oranges.
23:56
Speaker 2: Yes, And Signetti also brought U some players jam you
24:00
Speaker 2: who were a huge part of this championship run and
24:04
Speaker 2: getting things in a completely different track in the world
24:06
Speaker 2: last season, so there was some continuity there, you know,
24:10
Speaker 2: same thing with some of his staff too. So it's it's,
24:14
Speaker 2: you know, similar in some ways, but different in other
24:16
Speaker 2: ways because I think there was a little bit more
24:18
Speaker 2: personnel wise on the field versus on the court. Is
24:22
Speaker 2: a little bit of a different situation here as well.
24:25
Speaker 2: So I think that's that's something to also point out
24:27
Speaker 2: that it's not, you know, exactly the same thing. And yeah,
24:30
Speaker 2: the signatic thing is just it's just like in a
24:33
Speaker 2: whole other stratosphere of being able to kind of compare her.
24:36
Speaker 3: But you know, I get why.
24:38
Speaker 2: People, you know, you see, you see something else that
24:41
Speaker 2: is working in a the context feels the same, so
24:45
Speaker 2: you try to compare it. But it's just it's it's
24:47
Speaker 2: just it's just different, you know.
24:49
Speaker 1: So if you had to point to one thing this
24:51
Speaker 1: season that you've been encouraged by in terms of what
24:54
Speaker 1: the Reeze is brought to the table from a coaching perspective,
24:56
Speaker 1: and one thing that maybe has you concerned for the future.
25:00
Speaker 1: I know I'm putting you on the spot a little
25:01
Speaker 1: bit here, but you've watched a ton of film and
25:03
Speaker 1: you've written about this team all year. What would you
25:05
Speaker 1: say is the one thing that you've been encouraged by
25:07
Speaker 1: and what's one thing maybe you have I don't want
25:09
Speaker 1: to say concern, but a question moving forward?
25:12
Speaker 2: Well, I guess to look at the negative end first.
25:16
Speaker 2: I think the way that and I probably kind of
25:19
Speaker 2: evaded this from earlier questions from you, is the the
25:22
Speaker 2: roster construction issue. And I think this year was a
25:26
Speaker 2: let's go assemble like the Mid Major All Stars, and
25:29
Speaker 2: let's assemble it in a way where on paper, we
25:33
Speaker 2: have very high assist rates, right, we have some good shooting.
25:36
Speaker 2: We know we're going to be moving the ball a
25:37
Speaker 2: lot and shooting in a lot. But the problem with
25:40
Speaker 2: only targeting that caliber of players, so to speak, is
25:45
Speaker 2: that not all of them are going to pop at
25:46
Speaker 2: the next level, right, And so I think that's kind
25:49
Speaker 2: of been ultimately a little bit of what's held Indiana
25:52
Speaker 2: back is that they just haven't had enough players being
25:57
Speaker 2: able to be consistent at this next level, and that's
26:00
Speaker 2: really kind of held them back. And so I think,
26:04
Speaker 2: you know, it's a tough it's a tough thing to
26:07
Speaker 2: kind of get in the mix in the portal here
26:08
Speaker 2: and try to you're not going to get all of
26:10
Speaker 2: the best players. But I do wonder if there's more
26:14
Speaker 2: of a strategy of trying to maybe also find players
26:18
Speaker 2: that have played it a little bit of a higher
26:20
Speaker 2: level and shown production there. But you know, it just
26:23
Speaker 2: depends who's available there and they might have to kind
26:25
Speaker 2: of run this back. But I do wonder just Ifreeze's background,
26:29
Speaker 2: Like I totally get getting Connor enright, and I think
26:32
Speaker 2: he has been for what he is, has played his
26:35
Speaker 2: role extremely well. But with Conray's sideline for a bit
26:40
Speaker 2: with the injury, and then kind of falling out of favor.
26:42
Speaker 2: Like the amount of the amount that's put on Connor
26:44
Speaker 2: and Right's shoulder for what he brings to the table
26:48
Speaker 2: is just not kind of gonna always cut it when
26:52
Speaker 2: you're playing like these elite Big Ten teams, right, And
26:54
Speaker 2: so I think that that's one thing, just like as
26:56
Speaker 2: the season has gone, just the sort of mid major
27:01
Speaker 2: all star caliber of the players, Like, I think that's
27:06
Speaker 2: the I don't know, negative that needs to change. I
27:08
Speaker 2: think positive wise, I do think there with defrees, there
27:13
Speaker 2: is I don't know, for lack of a better term,
27:16
Speaker 2: like a seriousness.
27:17
Speaker 3: To what he's doing.
27:19
Speaker 2: And he has been in college basketball for long enough,
27:22
Speaker 2: and I think he is a good coach.
27:23
Speaker 3: I think he's a good access to the o's coach.
27:25
Speaker 2: I think there is a I think from some people,
27:29
Speaker 2: a relief even like the stuff that maybe shouldn't matter,
27:33
Speaker 2: but like it does, like how much you beat a
27:36
Speaker 2: team buy and the metrics and all those types of
27:39
Speaker 2: thing that matters for your profile and for getting into
27:42
Speaker 2: the tournament and for all those sorts of things. And
27:44
Speaker 2: like from day one, it's clear that the staff recognizes
27:46
Speaker 2: that knows that, and I think those sorts of things
27:51
Speaker 2: and just like thinking about like efficiency and both sides
27:53
Speaker 2: of the ball and some of the more you know,
27:56
Speaker 2: for lack of I mean, this is stuff that to
27:58
Speaker 2: me now is just so like ingrained and what you
28:01
Speaker 2: need to do in modern basketball. Obviously you don't you know,
28:04
Speaker 2: if you spill over too much into some of the
28:06
Speaker 2: analytics or just only hunting a certain type of thing
28:10
Speaker 2: it sometimes maybe it can be a little bit too
28:12
Speaker 2: much and you need to kind of ground that in
28:14
Speaker 2: the human nature of it all as well. But I
28:16
Speaker 2: think that just kind of top to bottom the just
28:21
Speaker 2: what he's doing in terms of x's and o's and
28:23
Speaker 2: just kind of get like program foundation stuff seems to
28:27
Speaker 2: me to be the positive. But as like kind of
28:30
Speaker 2: bubbling up to it also might be a longer term
28:34
Speaker 2: situation which might not you know, sit well with everybody
28:37
Speaker 2: right now and might just be like kicking it down
28:39
Speaker 2: the road, right, because for every year it's still maybe
28:42
Speaker 2: a little shaky and then it maybe potentially turned around
28:45
Speaker 2: in like a year through or year four, Like that's
28:47
Speaker 2: even more people complaining about it and having even even
28:49
Speaker 2: less patients, right and just saying, oh, this is the
28:51
Speaker 2: same old thing, when maybe underneath it all there's more
28:55
Speaker 2: strength to what's happening.
28:56
Speaker 3: It just needs to play out a little bit longer.
28:59
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would say for me, the positive thing is
29:02
Speaker 1: it's a modern style of play that's actually fun to watch.
29:06
Speaker 1: I know that's not been reflected in the attendance numbers
29:09
Speaker 1: at times, and I know there's been some games where
29:11
Speaker 1: they've been beaten soundly, lopsided losses that maybe felt like
29:16
Speaker 1: the past with some of the games that Mike Woodson
29:18
Speaker 1: loss or even Archie Miller. But when this team's playing
29:23
Speaker 1: well and doing what they're built to do well, it's
29:26
Speaker 1: really fun to watch. They share the ball, they passed
29:28
Speaker 1: the ball well, they shoot the ball well from the perimeter.
29:31
Speaker 1: So I think if you can envision that with better
29:33
Speaker 1: talent across the board, I think it becomes a lot
29:37
Speaker 1: more appealing to watch. And also, I think is something
29:40
Speaker 1: that players if you can show them the film and
29:43
Speaker 1: kind of show them how they're going to be used,
29:45
Speaker 1: it's something that kids would want to come and play in.
29:48
Speaker 1: I mean, I compare that too, and I know people
29:50
Speaker 1: don't want to hear this argument because Iowa was probably
29:52
Speaker 1: going to make a tournament. But I've watched plenty of
29:54
Speaker 1: Iowa games this season and what they do on offense,
29:57
Speaker 1: and then i watch an Indiana game, and I've talked
30:00
Speaker 1: to some other people that cover Big Ten teams as well,
30:02
Speaker 1: and they agree with me that the style in terms
30:05
Speaker 1: of offense of what Indiana's doing is just a lot
30:07
Speaker 1: more fun to watch and easier to recruit to an easier,
30:11
Speaker 1: more appealing I think for kids to come play. On
30:14
Speaker 1: the flip side of that, I would say the negative
30:16
Speaker 1: thing to me, if there is one, would be just
30:20
Speaker 1: kind of the idea that they didn't need more in
30:24
Speaker 1: the post in terms of rebounding and rim protection going
30:27
Speaker 1: into the season. I think Devrees made it a miscalculation
30:30
Speaker 1: a bit, and he's spoken to this at times throughout
30:32
Speaker 1: the season, just in terms of the physicality and the
30:35
Speaker 1: Bigs and the Big Ten, not necessarily saying outright that
30:39
Speaker 1: he made a mistake, but you can hear him kind
30:41
Speaker 1: of acknowledge that Indiana's undermanned in those positions, and I
30:45
Speaker 1: think moving forward there, I just look at this team.
30:50
Speaker 1: Just put Jackson Cohler from Michigan State on this team,
30:52
Speaker 1: and how different does an Indiana look. One guy that
30:55
Speaker 1: can clear the defensive glass or provide some strengthen the post.
31:01
Speaker 1: And I'm not saying Sam Alexis can't do that, but
31:03
Speaker 1: if you're a really good team, I think Sam Alexis
31:04
Speaker 1: is your six or seventh man, I think you would
31:06
Speaker 1: be great at that. But he's being asked to do
31:08
Speaker 1: more than probably what they envision coming into the season
31:11
Speaker 1: because they envision Read Bailey at the five, and I
31:13
Speaker 1: just don't think that works in the Big ten. Now,
31:15
Speaker 1: I'll give defrez a pass on that because it's his
31:18
Speaker 1: first year coming into the league, but I think they've
31:20
Speaker 1: got to definitely get better at that position moving forward.
31:24
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's almost kind of another piece of the
31:27
Speaker 2: puzzle in terms of like when I'm saying, you know
31:29
Speaker 2: these mid major kind of all stars that come in,
31:32
Speaker 2: is like maybe that's Direz's background, right, and also looking
31:36
Speaker 2: for high assist rates in good shooting, and I think
31:39
Speaker 2: that will still be part of the program, but that
31:42
Speaker 2: also needs to kind of be balanced by a different
31:45
Speaker 2: type of player inside.
31:46
Speaker 3: And maybe that is what he learned.
31:48
Speaker 2: This year, because I think there's enough evidence that that
31:52
Speaker 2: clearly had as another part of this roster that has
31:54
Speaker 2: just not worked out.
31:55
Speaker 3: I mean, I.
31:56
Speaker 2: Totally again on paper, you look before he came in,
31:59
Speaker 2: You see what Rebailey was as a player, and like, okay,
32:02
Speaker 2: I see how this fits into the larger narrative of
32:06
Speaker 2: the type of roster that DeVries is building. It was
32:09
Speaker 2: very logical. But then when you actually get into the games,
32:13
Speaker 2: you can see the hole that I created otherwise against
32:16
Speaker 2: the type of teams that they're playing, and that, yes,
32:19
Speaker 2: that also is something that you look back now and
32:22
Speaker 2: you're like, oh, yeah, this just didn't quite match up
32:25
Speaker 2: with what was actually needed out of that position.
32:28
Speaker 3: All right, I think we're going to leave it there.
32:29
Speaker 1: For this week's episode of podcasts, I'll break really fun
32:32
Speaker 1: discussion with Ryan. I want to get back together once
32:35
Speaker 1: we kind of get into the meat of the portal,
32:37
Speaker 1: when we know who's leaving, who's coming back, and maybe
32:43
Speaker 1: kind of do a maybe not a portal preview, but
32:46
Speaker 1: just kind of identifying what exactly needs to happen, because
32:50
Speaker 1: right now all we know is the three freshmen. We
32:52
Speaker 1: know there could be some other guys obviously coming back,
32:55
Speaker 1: but I think it's going to be pretty fascinating the timeline.
33:00
Speaker 1: I think one thing people maybe don't realize this year
33:02
Speaker 1: with the portal. I'm not sure if you know this.
33:03
Speaker 1: The portal doesn't actually open quote unquote open. I say,
33:07
Speaker 1: it never closes actually, but it opens for business officially
33:10
Speaker 1: April seventh, which I think is the day after the
33:12
Speaker 1: National Championship game, and it's going to be open for
33:15
Speaker 1: a couple of weeks. But a lot of this stuff
33:17
Speaker 1: right now is already going on behind the scenes in
33:19
Speaker 1: terms of I'm sure agents talking. I'm sure Ryan Carr
33:22
Speaker 1: has been, you know, working the phones constantly, and a
33:25
Speaker 1: lot of players are probably already making their intentions known
33:28
Speaker 1: that they're going to be on the move. So I
33:29
Speaker 1: think you won't start to see actually guys committing until
33:32
Speaker 1: after that, but I think it's gonna be pretty quick
33:33
Speaker 1: when it starts to happen. So I want to get
33:36
Speaker 1: back together at some point after the season that ends,
33:38
Speaker 1: when we have kind of a chance to assess what's
33:40
Speaker 1: coming back and maybe what's needed in terms of the
33:43
Speaker 1: roster next season. But again, I think I go back
33:45
Speaker 1: to the point of they're gonna need four or five starters.
33:48
Speaker 1: I mean, do you think I'm off face with that
33:50
Speaker 1: or are you kind of thinking the same thing?
33:52
Speaker 2: No, I mean, based on who's starting now, I mean
33:55
Speaker 2: you think about all that are leaving, So yeah, I
33:58
Speaker 2: think they're probably going to need to to get some
34:00
Speaker 2: experienced players come into to fill the starting lineup while
34:04
Speaker 2: these freshmen are kind of working behind well, not behind
34:08
Speaker 2: the scenes, but they're kind of working into the lineup
34:10
Speaker 2: potentially and might be longer term plays. Yeah, they're gonna
34:12
Speaker 2: need They're gonna need some good players out of the
34:15
Speaker 2: portal for sure.
34:16
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, So it's gonna be fun. Obviously, spring football
34:19
Speaker 1: starting as well this month, not something we've covered before
34:22
Speaker 1: and Inside the Hall, but Josh Poe's gonna be grinding
34:25
Speaker 1: the spring football practices. We'll have it all covered for
34:27
Speaker 1: you and inside the Hall. Obviously, the season's not over yet.
34:29
Speaker 1: Indiana big game on Saturday at Ohio State, Josh, and
34:32
Speaker 1: I think I think Quinn Wichards is also making the
34:34
Speaker 1: trip over for that one. They'll also be at the
34:36
Speaker 1: Big Ten Tournament next week in Chicago, so we'll continue
34:39
Speaker 1: to have you covered the rest of the way. As always.
34:41
Speaker 1: Thank you Ryan for joining us on this week's show.
34:43
Speaker 1: If you enjoy the show, please leave us a rating
34:46
Speaker 1: and review over on Apple Podcasts Spotify. If you're watching
34:49
Speaker 1: on YouTube Like the video, subscribe to the channel, and
34:52
Speaker 1: we'll be back soon with another episode of podcast on
34:54
Speaker 1: the Break.