Latest / The Joe Rogan Experience / #2534 - Annie Jacobsen

Transcript

#2534 - Annie Jacobsen · The Joe Rogan Experience

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Podcast.
• 0:03
  Speaker 2: Check it out the Joe Rogan Experience showIn By Day.
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  Speaker 3: Joe Rogan Podcast, by Night, All Day and come.
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  Speaker 1: Here and scare biological war. Oh boy, every time I
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  Speaker 1: talk to you, I'm fucking terrified.
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  Speaker 2: That is my part time job to actually scare Joe
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  Speaker 2: Rogan if I can do that.
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  Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah. Every time I talk to you, I'm like,
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  Speaker 1: oh no. Last time it was nuclear war. Oh no.
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: Now it's biological war.
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  Speaker 2: Oh no, which is actually maybe even grimmer the nuclear
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  Speaker 2: because at least in nuclear you're just like gone in
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  Speaker 2: the flash.
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  Speaker 1: I did a show a while back on the Sci
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  Speaker 1: Fi Network called Joe Rogan Questions Everything, and one of
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  Speaker 1: the episodes we did was about biological war. And so
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  Speaker 1: we spoke to this guy who used to work for
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  Speaker 1: Russia during the Cold War, and he was talking about
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  Speaker 1: how much anthrax they had and how much work they
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  Speaker 1: had done on biological weapons, and it was terrifying. He said,
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  Speaker 1: they had like just giant vats of anthrax, like enough
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  Speaker 1: to kill everyone in New York City.
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  Speaker 2: They were was it ken Alaback?
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  Speaker 1: Do you know he was Russian?
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  Speaker 2: Russian? Yeah, there was a couple of those Russian defector
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  Speaker 2: scientists who came here and told us everything they were
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  Speaker 2: doing there was like, you know, tons of anthrax and plague.
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  Speaker 1: Plague.
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  Speaker 2: That's actually the pathogen that I use in the scenario
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  Speaker 2: I write is plague because it's so crazy, scary, so dangerous,
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  Speaker 2: sits at the top of the government's Tier one select
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  Speaker 2: agent of dangerous pathogens.
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  Speaker 1: So one of the things that we did during this
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  Speaker 1: episode we went to Galveston to I guess there's a
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  Speaker 1: CDC lab that they had there. So they have these
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  Speaker 1: super thick walls and everyone's wearing space suits and they
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  Speaker 1: have these tubes attached to and they were studying all
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  Speaker 1: these different really horrible fatal diseases. And I'm like, well,
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  Speaker 1: what if this stuff gets out, like it's right here,
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  Speaker 1: Like what happens if it gets out? Like will we
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  Speaker 1: take every precaution this and that. But his concern, he said,
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  Speaker 1: was not for genetically engineered viruses. His fear was really
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  Speaker 1: just from natural virus. He says, that is just as
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  Speaker 1: scary as anything that's out there.
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  Speaker 2: This is the Russian scientist.
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  Speaker 1: Now this is a different guy. This is an American scientist. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: I think they like to say that, you know, Mother
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  Speaker 2: Nature is just as powerful but in truth, that's actually
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  Speaker 2: not true because think about what you can do with
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  Speaker 2: genetic modification, make it more virulent, more transmissible, yes, and
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  Speaker 2: make it defeat existing vaccines and antibiotics.
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  Speaker 1: Well, we are right now in the middle of the
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  Speaker 1: Fauci hearings, so he is now testifying in front of
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  Speaker 1: Congress and pleading the fifth about everything, including the color
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  Speaker 1: of his tie. It's very weird to watch. It's in
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  Speaker 1: one way, it's like I told you to a lot
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  Speaker 1: of my liberal friends that wanted to pretend that he
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: was a great guy, and then he wasn't doing anything wrong.
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  Speaker 1: And now that all these emails have gotten out where
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  Speaker 1: it shows that he knew that the fatality rate was
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  Speaker 1: much lower than they were saying. He knew that it
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  Speaker 1: wasn't dangerous for children, that they didn't need vaccines, he
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  Speaker 1: knew that the social distancing thing was all nonsense. And
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  Speaker 1: he's got a blanket pardon for ten years. And the
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  Speaker 1: thing is, it's like, these people get money for research,
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  Speaker 1: and that's what they do. They do research. So if
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  Speaker 1: you get money and you get grants for research, well
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  Speaker 1: you're going to go do research. And if your research
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  Speaker 1: is gain of function research that makes viruses more infectious
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  Speaker 1: to human beings, and you know you have to do
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  Speaker 1: it because that's your job. That's what you do, that's
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  Speaker 1: what you studied, that's what you went to school for. Like,
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  Speaker 1: what a crazy fucking thing we're doing.
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  Speaker 2: It is bananas, and it's also I mean, it was
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  Speaker 2: really unfortunate. I thought that yesterday he took the thefth
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  Speaker 2: because I, for one, just want to hear call me
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  Speaker 2: Pollyanna the truth be told.
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  Speaker 1: Well, he's not going to tell you the truth no
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  Speaker 1: matter what. He's going to obfuscate and dance around it
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  Speaker 1: and use words that don't totally apply to what he's
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  Speaker 1: saying and just ramble on.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, COVID absolutely could have been this incredible lesson
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  Speaker 2: for all of us, I mean, the nightmare that it was,
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  Speaker 2: and instead we're just left. I mean, can you believe
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  Speaker 2: that we still, with all the power of national security,
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  Speaker 2: that we still allegedly do not know where the virus
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  Speaker 2: came from? Well, don't we definitively? I mean definitively. People
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  Speaker 2: certainly have their ideas.
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  Speaker 1: But I think it's high probability that it came from
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  Speaker 1: the Wuhan lab. I think most experts are now saying that,
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  Speaker 1: And I think the only reason why they weren't saying
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  Speaker 1: that was because of Fauci, and it was really because
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  Speaker 1: that he had funded this through the EcoHealth Alliance.
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  Speaker 2: Look, I say that in a very like ninety thousand
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  Speaker 2: foot neutral way. In other words, every subc I leave COVID,
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  Speaker 2: that part of it out of my book, it becomes
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  Speaker 2: like a like a metaphor that underpins the narrative, and
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  Speaker 2: people end up reading the book and going, wow, I
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  Speaker 2: actually think differently about COVID, which was kind of my intention.
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  Speaker 2: But every subject matter expert I spoke to encouraged me
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  Speaker 2: to put in the book that almost certainly it was
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  Speaker 2: a lablique like it's just so when I say we
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  Speaker 2: still don't know, that's in a bit of error quotes
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  Speaker 2: meaning how is it that someone can't How does it
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  Speaker 2: all rest on Fauci, who had reasons to mislead us.
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  Speaker 2: We know that from looking at what's been released. How
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  Speaker 2: can it be that he's the only one with the
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  Speaker 2: alleged answer to it all?
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  Speaker 1: Well, I mean the other scientists that were investigating it
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  Speaker 1: from the beginning, you know, when they and examined the virus,
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  Speaker 1: they were saying that all indications that had been manipulated, and
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  Speaker 1: they were pretty public about that, and then they weren't,
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  Speaker 1: and then they changed their tune. It's just when you
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  Speaker 1: have power and you have influence like he did, and
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  Speaker 1: the power to make or break careers in the medical world,
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  Speaker 1: where these people are terrified. You know, they're already dealing
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  Speaker 1: with malpractice insurance which is very high. They already have
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  Speaker 1: very high student debt, student loan debt, and it's a
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  Speaker 1: bad situation for them, and they're not going to stick
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  Speaker 1: their neck out to you know, risk everything that they've
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  Speaker 1: worked for for twenty thirty whatever years for this thing.
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  Speaker 1: And that's what most people did. Most people just stuck
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  Speaker 1: their head in the sand.
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  Speaker 2: And you know, I sort of went along with a
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  Speaker 2: party line, which is also really crazy when you drill
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  Speaker 2: down on how dangerous biological weapons are. I mean, look,
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  Speaker 2: most of the people I talked to said gain of
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  Speaker 2: function is a euphemism for biological weapons engineering right right, period,
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  Speaker 2: full stop.
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  Speaker 1: And a lot of it is funded by this.
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  Speaker 2: And that, yes, and and and what's crazy is that
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  Speaker 2: these are people that have worked for Obama just as
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  Speaker 2: much as you know, all sides of the isle working
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  Speaker 2: the real people who are not, as you say, they
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  Speaker 2: don't have something to gain financially.
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  Speaker 1: Well, we should say that Obama actually stopped gaino function
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  Speaker 1: research when he was in office, which was a very
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  Speaker 1: wise thing for him, very wise by by you know,
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  Speaker 1: his decision.
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  Speaker 2: So what do you make of the fact that like
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  Speaker 2: Obama stopped this dangerous research also called dual use research
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  Speaker 2: of concern? He stops it and then suddenly it becomes
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  Speaker 2: a part is an issue that republic only one side
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  Speaker 2: of the isle decides that. I mean, that's what confuses
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  Speaker 2: me because if the real if you look at the facts,
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  Speaker 2: the very knowledgeable people that are well informed by people
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  Speaker 2: who don't have financial gain know that gain of function
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  Speaker 2: is essentially weapons engineering.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, And the thing is they're doing gain of function
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  Speaker 1: to make these viruses more transmissible, supposedly so that they
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  Speaker 1: can come up with cures. But they didn't have any cures.
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  Speaker 2: But I think it's like, Okay, that also sounds great
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  Speaker 2: for them to say we're trying to work on cures,
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  Speaker 2: but they're leaving out a really important point is that
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  Speaker 2: in order for us to find a cure, we have
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  Speaker 2: to make the pathogen more virulent, more transmissible. We have
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  Speaker 2: to make something, for example, airborne that wasn't airborne. Right,
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  Speaker 2: we have to demonstrate that it could cause a pandemic.
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  Speaker 2: You see that a lot in the literature, in order
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  Speaker 2: to figure out how to cure it. Well, that's a
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  Speaker 2: catch twenty two. That's incredibly dangerous, Like we have to
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  Speaker 2: actually make a weapon to be able to defeat a weapon.
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  Speaker 2: That's actually what is being said.
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  Speaker 1: Right, But it seems like there's a lot of bullshit
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  Speaker 1: going on and that really what they're trying to do
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  Speaker 1: is make better diseases that work better and they can
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  Speaker 1: use them. Like. This is part of the argument about
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  Speaker 1: whether or not Lime disease was engineered, and there's a
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  Speaker 1: lot of evidence of points to the fact that it was.
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  Speaker 1: And one of the reasons for it is this Plumb
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  Speaker 1: Island laboratory that's right off the coast of Lime, Connecticut,
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  Speaker 1: where the disease was really first named in the nineteen
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  Speaker 1: seventies or whatever it was. Yeah, And so they were
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  Speaker 1: doing gain a function research. They were doing biological research
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  Speaker 1: on ticks in order to infect ticks with diseases and
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  Speaker 1: then they would drop them out of airplanes and overwhelm
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  Speaker 1: the medical establishment in these areas and the idea was
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  Speaker 1: that if you're fighting the enemy, you can fly over
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  Speaker 1: dump a bunch of ticks on them. They all get
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  Speaker 1: these horrible diseases. Everyone's sick. You don't have an effective
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  Speaker 1: fighting force.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, it's like, we need to create a countermeasure,
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  Speaker 2: but first we need to create the weapon.
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  Speaker 1: I don't even know if they think that far ahead.
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  Speaker 1: I think a lot of it I'm just guessing, but
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  Speaker 1: I think a lot of it is just what I
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  Speaker 1: was saying earlier. There's people in their job is to
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  Speaker 1: do this kind of research, and they want grants and
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: they want funding, and they want to and then there's
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  Speaker 1: other people that can profit off of this of these
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  Speaker 1: grants and this funding and creating labs and doing all
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: this stuff, and they just start doing it, and they
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: come up with reasons why it should be done. And
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: then of course you have military people that want the
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  Speaker 1: military applications of these diseases, and so they they help
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  Speaker 1: facilitate it. And they don't even think, what what is this?
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  Speaker 1: How does this play out? They think about their own interests,
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: their own short term benefits of having these things, and
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: they just continue the research. They continue to work, and
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: the fact that they even push back on the idea
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: that it was a lab leak. So hard when you
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: have a lab right where it was leaked, I mean
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: right where it started happening. You've got a lab there.
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: And then the famous John Stewart bit that he did
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: on The Colbert Show. Hilarious, yep, I mean that's it's crazy.
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  Speaker 1: It's the WU hand Institute for.
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  Speaker 2: Coronavirus Research, Yes, and that's where you get a coronavirus leak.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, look, this is like where you really have
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  Speaker 2: to think the country's going to hell in a handbag.
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  Speaker 2: That people stop being able to form an opinion based
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  Speaker 2: on the facts in front of them, even if it
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  Speaker 2: isn't popular with their best friend.
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  Speaker 1: Well, it's their party, right, it's their ideology. They've committed
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: to one side or another. And either you you know,
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: you're with the team or you're not with the team.
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  Speaker 1: And if you're with the team, you have to accept
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  Speaker 1: all the things the team.
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  Speaker 2: Says at your own peril. I mean, you know, it's
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  Speaker 2: an existential risk. Do you know what the case fatality
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  Speaker 2: rate for COVID was, Like, the case fatality rate, it
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: means how many people out of one hundred people that
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: get die, how many one case fatality rate of one
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: pneumonic plague, which I write about in Biological War, Mother
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  Speaker 2: Nature's pneumonic plague, one hundred out of one hundred die,
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: one hundred percent case fatality rate. Unless you get antibiotics
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  Speaker 2: within twenty four hours, then it's about a fifteen percent
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: case fatality rate. But guess what gain of function does
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  Speaker 2: You can learn how to out fox antibiotics so that
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  Speaker 2: you can turn Mother Nature's pneumonic plague, which used to
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: be curable with antibiotics, to have no cure. That's the
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: threat level we're dealing with. And meanwhile people are taking
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: sides about what we're talking about. A lab league that
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  Speaker 2: pretty obviously was allab well.
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: First of all, I didn't realize that COVID's fatality rate
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: was that high. I thought it was much lower than that.
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: It's about one percent. Well here's why. Okay, so one
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  Speaker 2: in one hundred people who manifested COVID got it. But
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: COVID is also one.
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: In one hundred people who manifested COVID died died.
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: Yes, So like I don't know any really that much.
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: That is the CDC even Defense Department statistic. But also
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: keep this into consideration, many many people who had COVID
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  Speaker 2: were never symptomatic, like including my eighty three year old
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  Speaker 2: father and my son, one of my two sons. They
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: could both test positive for COVID and have no symptoms.
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  Speaker 1: Right, But isn't that a function of the PCR test
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  Speaker 1: being really not designed for testing for active diseases and
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: there's false positives of the PCR test was somewhere in
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  Speaker 1: the eighty percents.
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  Speaker 2: Huge, huge, I mean, you're i think bringing up the
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: most important point about biology, which is that there's so
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: much uncertain There's so much uncertainty. I mean, you and
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: I could get the same pathogen and our lungs, our
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: immunity systems are totally different, our physiology is different, so
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: there's no uncertainty would be something that you would think
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: would be sort of factored into public health officials talking
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: about things like we're not sure if dot dot, but
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: instead they act with this crazy certainty which is bogus.
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: Well, the big problem with that is profit, Right, there
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: was a lot of profit in being able to point
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: towards one very particular method, one very particular treatment, and
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: this was the only treatment, and you have to take
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: this treatment, and this treatment is going to make people
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: an insane amount of money, but that's not why they're
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: pushing it. They're pushing it for public health. They really
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: care about you, even though they're going to make hundreds
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: of billions of dollars.
• 14:52
  Speaker 4: It's a case fatality rate. Is that what you're saying. Yeah,
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  Speaker 4: it says it's zero, which is a fraction of the
• 14:58
  Speaker 4: one percent estimated earlier in the pandem.
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what I thought it was. I thought it
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: was one tenth of one percent. So that makes more
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: sense to me because otherwise you would have so many
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: people dead. You know, if you think about three hundred
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: million people, that means we'd have three million people dead
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: because most people caught COVID.
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: It's interesting because the CDC still says it's one percent.
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: I think they're full shit, right, But they they're full shit.
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: I think they're just I think the mismanagement and the
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: just the overall strategy for dealing with it and dealing
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: with people, the lockdowns, keeping kids out of school, masking
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: all of it was so bad. It's so indefensible that
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: one of the wildest things now is during this Fauci trial,
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: you're not seeing any coverage of it on mainstream media,
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: except I saw one of those stupid panel shows on
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: CNN where they were saying, no one cares about this.
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: We should care about what's happening right now. America doesn't
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: care about what happened five years ago. Hey, there's a
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: congressional hearing going on where a guy's testifying in front
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: of Congress who got a ten year, complete ten year
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: immunity for all the crimes that he possibly could have
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: committed when he wasn't convicted of any crimes, which is
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: an incredible precedent that's never happened before. You've never had
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: a guy get pardoned for something that he.
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: Was never convicted of for ten years anything he did
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: in ten years. And then you have that same guy
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: testifying in front of Congress pleading the fifth that would
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: color as tie is. If you don't think that's news,
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: you're out of your fucking mind and you shouldn't be
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: calling yourself the news because you're just a propaganda arm
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: for whatever pharmaceutical company is paying for your advertisements. What
• 16:35
  Speaker 3: you're doing is nonsense. This is definitely not news. That's
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: a big issue.
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: For most Americans who went through that, people who lost
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: their jobs, people who had to take a vaccine in
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: order to go to work and got sick from it.
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: People who they couldn't fly, they couldn't travel, they were vilified,
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: they were called plague rats because they were questioning these things.
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: And here we are, Here we are with CNN saying
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: this is not a big deal. Why are we concentrating
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: on this? We have so many issues right now plaguing
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: this country. Yeah, guess what we can concentrate on those two?
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: We can look at everything. That's what you're supposed to do.
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: That's what the news is supposed to be. You're supposed
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: to be telling you. You're not supposed to be the
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: arbiters of what we can and can't concentrate on. That's ridiculous,
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: you know.
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: But what's interesting is I think the lack of news
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: ends up making people more curious. So, in other words,
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: people go to other sources of information. If they're not
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: going to get it from CNN, they're gonna look for
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: it themselves because we're naturally curious, especially something like COVID.
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: So I think I kind of get the sense that
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: people toe certain groups of people, certainly not me, because
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: you don't know what my politics are. But they will
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: toe the party line, but then they have their own
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: opinion privately, yes, which is unfortunately what we also saw
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: from doctor Fauci. But that's a completely different point because
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: he's a public health official and he shouldn't be, you know,
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: speaking out of one's side, out of his mouth and
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: writing in his journal another thing that he really thinks.
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: But I think that this human instinct to want to
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: know the truth about what happened must prevail, right and
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: that so, But my original point was, like, why is
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: doctor Fauci allegedly the only one who can really tell
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: us about the Wuhan laplick? Where's the CIA, where's the ODNI,
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: where's DoD Where are other organizations that you know have
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: that information? Yeah, you know they do. If Fauchi had it,
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: they had it. Why aren't they bringing that to the
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: public domain right now?
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: That's a very good question. So I want to ask
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: you about this book, like what was your motivation for writing?
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: How did you get involved in this? Like I know,
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: you you pick a subject and you go deep and
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: you dive deep and then you write your book. So
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: why biological War?
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: My first six books were written in the past tense,
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: like you know, the Nazi scientists who came to America
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: Area fifty one the Pentagon's Brain. The Nuclear War and
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: Biological War are written in the future. They're scenarios based
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: on Pentagon wargames. And that was me realizing like, there
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: are major existential threats right now speeding up at the
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: rate of science, which is going faster every day, literally,
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: And so I modeled the two books after Pentagon wargames
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: and got access to people who actually run these games
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: at the Pentagon and learned the sort of holy shit,
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: people are preparing for the worst case scenario and no
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: one knows about it.
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: Is that their job?
• 19:50
  Speaker 4: Though?
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: I mean that is their job. They have to be
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: preparing for the worst case scenario. The real question is
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: are you preparing by creating it?
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: The Defense Department or US? Yeah. Well, what I wanted
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: to do, first of all, was like I'm just naturally curious,
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: so I wanted to know, like, what are they how
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: does that preparation play out? The most shocking thing about
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: nuclear was to find out like, oh, there is no
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: plan because we're all dead. That's literally the quote from
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: the FEMA director. There is no population protection planning after
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: a nuclear strike because everyone's dead. Don't forget your morals
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: and hope you stalked PEDIAI like, that's what he told me. Okay,
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: bio is totally different ped light you know that stuff
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: you give your kids to drink. Electrolytes.
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, not just kids.
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: Are you all right? That's what he's at. It's been
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: a while since I've been an athlete. Yeah, so yeah,
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: that's what he said. It was like, Wow, that's what
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: they're thinking about nuclear It's just I guess for the electrolytes.
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: Does that protect I know, what is it iodine that
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: people tell you to take.
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: I always got the sense that the p I should
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: have done a follow up question, Joe, why why people?
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: I always got the sense in the same way that
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: when your kids are babies and they get diarrhea, that
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: you give them pedialyte to like, you know, re get
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: their system filled with necessary electrolytes. So that's and I
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: also got the sense that it was like hydration and
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: you know, better than water.
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: God.
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: The bio I learned is completely different animal because what
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: they're really worried about is the secondary effect of panic
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: and anarchy. And that was really interesting to me because
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: having written all these books about you know, the Defense
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: Department and the CIA. The programs are very you know,
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: they're very structured and ordered, and they don't take place
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: in the homeland because Rowe fighting wars overseas. So to
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: learn about a program that would go down in the
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: continental United States, where you know, the Insurrection Act gets declared,
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: Posse Comma Tatis gets lifted, the military takes over dot
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: dot dot, and then it goes from there. Third act
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: of the book, spoiler alert. That was shocking to me,
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: and it was equally shocking that I could actually get
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: this information. A lot of it's classified, but the names
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: of some of the programs are unclassified. So the officials
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: that I interviewed took me up to the edge of
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: what can be legally known. And I also got the
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: sense of, like, oh that the sense that these former
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: officials are conveying is the public should know about this.
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: My personal interpretation is like, let's stop arguing about stuff
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: that like doesn't matter and get to the facts and
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: start realizing where the real threats are.
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: So their real fear is worrying about the aftermath, worrying
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: about chaos in the streets, rioting, looting. That's the real fear.
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: That's the real fear. You can search up any of
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: So there's unclassified pandemic plans which are done by like
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: FEMA DHS. They're always done by former officials, former sector,
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: former CDC director sitting around a table running a pandemic
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: planning game. They do them at the Defense Department and
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: they call it a biological catastrophe wargame. Those are declassified.
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: All of them that I was looking at, go through
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: the series of events, you know, outbreak, infection, sort of
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: everyone trying to mitigate the release, the spread, and then
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: it gets to a certain point in my scenario, it's
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: day six because pneumonic plague is fast. There's a point
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: in all the plans where anarchy and chaos takes over
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: and the wargame ends ends like, oh and now we're
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: done here. And I would say, is the JOURNALI like
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: to myself, what happens next? What happens next? And why
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: aren't we learning about it?
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: And they don't have any plans for what happens after
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: anarchy and chaos?
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: They do, they just don't. They just don't have it
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: in the declassified games. And that's what There's a plan
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: called the devolution plan eyebrows up for a reason think
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: about evolution. Yeah, now put a D in front of it.
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: Instead of going forward, you're going backward. So you've heard
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: of defcon, right, Okay, So def con defense readiness condition.
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: There's five. Five is the lowest. That's like normal every day.
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: At nine to eleven, we were at three. Defcon one
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: means nuclear war. There's a separate structure of readiness condition
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: called COGCON. Probably haven't heard of it because it's classified.
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: Stands for Continuity of Government Readiness Condition. It's got four levels.
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: Four is every day. One is insurrection, the Insurrection Act
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: gets declared, COGCN one is in effect, and the devolution
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: plan happens, which I learned means a subset of predesignated officials.
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: They know who they are, they've signed contracts, they've rehearsed it.
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: They go out, in the words of the former FEMA director,
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: COGCON one, you send your devolution cruise out. They go
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: out to a hot site, warm site, or cold site
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: underground bunkers located around the United States. This is from
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: an actual FEMA chief telling me this, and they set
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: up how to run the government. Because the idea is
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: all the regular government people will probably be dead of anarchy, insurrection,
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: mnemonic plague.
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: So they have bunkers.
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: And those are classified. The bunkers are where they are.
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: Do you remember there was the bunker during after nine
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: to eleven where Dick Cheney was in the bunker. But
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: George Bush was just like hanging out.
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: They left him. I think they left him in Texas
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: or you know, he was on his ranch. He was
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: just there actual you know what. I had someone tell
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: me where he was, and I went through like a
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: problem with like legal whether I could say this. So
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: I had to say I was told, but you know
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: it's not verified something like that. But one of the
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: CIA spy pilots, Ken Collins, he famously flew the ox
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: cart out at Area fifty one. He told me that
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: on nine to eleven, George Bush was driving around in Texas,
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: maybe it was in Florida in the back of a
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: laundry truck. That's how they kept him hidden.
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: What a laundry a laundry truck did? They just have
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: it look like a laundry truck and it outfitted with
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: like regular seats in the back, and that's how they
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: drave him around. I mean, a bulletproof laundry truck.
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: No, I think he got like I think it was
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: like what do we do with him? And that that
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: was what was available. It was a laundry truck. That's
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: what I was told by like a very reliable so
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: that was.
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: Available, meaning there was nothing else available that was incognito.
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: They were trying to transport him to the doomsday plane,
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: which is where he ended up going into the doomsday
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: plan and flying around in circle.
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: They thought that like a caravan of SUVs would be
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: too obvious.
• 27:45
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: Wow, so you learn really pretty quickly that there's all
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: these plans in place, but then it becomes like ad
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: hoc or like on the fly in an actual crisis
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: or emergency.
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: Whoa yep.
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: But okay, you're referring to Mount Weather. That's where Dick
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: Cheney went. Okay, Okay, so Mount Weather is in the
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: mountains outside of d C. It's like DC right, Blue
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: Ridge Mountains, Oh, one hundred seventy five miles. Okay. So
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: the Pentagon has an alternate command center called Raven Rock
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: Underground Bunker.
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: Okay. That sounds like it's right out of a video game.
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: It sounds like they probably have put it in a
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: that's a real like it used to be classified and
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: no one used to know about it, and now it's
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: kind of like out there. The officials said.
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: Jamie, this is the bunker. Oh, we have a map
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: of it, we got blueprints information about it. What do
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: you want? How deep does it? Fifty one miles from
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: DC at least seven levels?
• 28:55
  Speaker 4: Wow, the Oval office would be at the bottom.
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: That's so that's where That's where Chaine he was on
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: nine to eleven.
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: So is that where like a nuclear bomb can't get
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: to it.
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: A nuclear bomb take it all out in nuclear war,
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: I destroy all of those I mean I don't destroy them.
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: I show you how they would be destroyed. Russia would
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: put like five nuclear bombs on Raven Rock and it.
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: Would just just boom, boom boom.
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: That would be it. And also the fires alone would
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: just incinerate everyone inside.
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: Also, like, how are you getting your air? Where's your
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: air coming from? Your air is going to be contaminated
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: with nuclear fallout? Right?
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: Yes?
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: Is this what it looks like? I don't know.
• 29:32
  Speaker 4: There's a bunch of if some of those pictures were
• 29:34
  Speaker 4: coming from tumblers, I don't know.
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: I think I think they take the real the real
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: pictures and then they turn them into you know, comic books.
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: But right, but you can see some.
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: Of So look how it's got this like entrance carved
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: into the side of the mountain, the big cement wall
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: and you go through that. Yeah, you know, we were
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: talking about this the other day. We're talking about darren Coou.
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: Do you know what that is. It's an underground facility
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: that's in Turkey.
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: And yes, I do know about that.
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: That they found by accents thee Yeah.
• 30:10
  Speaker 4: Yeah, they used to. It was being used to hide
• 30:13
  Speaker 4: people up until the nineteen twenties. Whoa, Yeah, people like
• 30:16
  Speaker 4: the Greeks were hiding for people invading Greece.
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: So it can how's twenty thousand people under there and
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: they really don't know why they made it or who
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: made it.
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: It's Turkey is crazy. It's such as old civilization with
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: like layers upon layers upon layers of just when you
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: think it's really old, it gets even older.
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: Well that's go Beeck to Teppe right where they had
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: to redate. Well, they still resisted what constitutes modern civilization
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: or civilization in general. They're still trying to say some
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: archaeologists are hanging on tooth and claw trying to say
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: that hunter gatherers made these enormous stone columns with three
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: D drawings that seemed to be a calendar of some
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: sort of a cataclysmic events.
• 31:03
  Speaker 4: So some of the pictures we were just looking at
• 31:04
  Speaker 4: from ot Weather maybe not accurate because it's also used
• 31:07
  Speaker 4: in the TV.
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: Show The one Hundred.
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, but it is a real Yeah, that's probably.
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: Where they get it from.
• 31:12
  Speaker 4: So what we were looking at, I think was the
• 31:14
  Speaker 4: stuff from the TV.
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: Show What is that? What's the one hundred?
• 31:19
  Speaker 4: Like a show like Silo or something where people were,
• 31:21
  Speaker 4: you know, one hundred people left or something like that.
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: I think that's what we had Tim Robbins on and
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: we're talking about Silo. Have you seen that show Silah,
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: really good show. It's on Apple and it's essentially about
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: an underground civilization that survived some sort of cataclysm. They
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: don't exactly say in the beginning. I'm early on the show.
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: They don't say what the cataclysm is. But these people
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: have to live like deep, deep, deep underground in these
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: self containing facilities and you can't go outside. All your die.
• 31:47
  Speaker 4: They all read it about it.
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: So Darren Kuyu could house twenty thousand people and they
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: had they had pastures, or they had storage like for
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: cattle and grain and water and wine and oil presses.
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: It's like, crazy shit.
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: And how many thousands of years easy is it?
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: They don't even they don't know, they don't know who
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: made it. They didn't know it existed. They found it.
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: Imagine a guy. The initial story was that his chickens
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: had gone through a hole and he's like, where's these
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: chickens going? They never come.
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: Back, and then the disappearing Turkish chickens.
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: So they knocked down these walls and then they find
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: this thing and they haven't even explored all of it.
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: They don't even have all of it explored yet. It's insane.
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: It's so big and it's just there and they don't
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: know why, and they don't know who made it, and
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: they don't know what they were hiding from. This is
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: what it looks like.
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's incredible.
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: It's really crazy because it's absolutely enormous. I'm darn right here.
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: This is like some of the tunnels.
• 32:53
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I get confused since they've win on ten percent
• 32:55
  Speaker 4: of it, Like that's obviously a fake, but I don't
• 32:57
  Speaker 4: know how much of that is what it is because
• 32:59
  Speaker 4: it's supposed to be under ground, right.
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: But yeah, that doesn't look real that. That seems like
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: somebody made that up. But the actual image is like,
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: that's an image, so it's just the best Darren Kou
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: underground like they're point to. Yeah, right there, that's what
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: it really looked like. So imagine they find this underground
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: and they don't even know how old it is because
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: if you find some stuff, you can't carbon date the walls,
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: you can't carbon date the carvings. So they have to
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: find things that are left there. But if people are
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: hanging out there until the nineteen twenties, like, so they
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: really don't even know. If you find something how old
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: it is, you can guess, but you don't know, like
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: how old was the building when this person was there?
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: Was it thousands of years old already? They don't know.
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: It's interesting how the archaeologists that have a like have
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: skin in the game with an other theory resist that
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: and it takes a while. It's like with go Beckley tep.
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: You know, now there's investigations going on archaeological digs nearby,
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: and lo and behold they're finding other things, which makes
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: me feel like all over the area, Yeah, all over
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: the place. Of course it didn't exist on its own.
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: Of course, some kind of advanced civilization has neighbors.
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: Eleven thousand plus years ago. It's so weird because we
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: keep pushing the dates further and further back. Like Graham
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: Hancock always says, stuff just keeps getting older, and so
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: it makes you wonder, like, have we gone through something
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: like this before, whether it's a natural catastrophe or whatever
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: it was.
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: Remember when we were kids, it was like the Lasco
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: Caves were the oldest thing ever. I don't even remember
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: that in France. Remember the drawing of the bull? I
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: remember that from the history books.
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: That's from that her documentary. Yeah, it's great, amazing.
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: Has he been on the show?
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: No, I want to get him on. I love that.
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: He's the neighbor of my kids.
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: WHOA. Yeah, well, I don't want to say where he lives.
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: People go find him.
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: But that's in La So wow, we'll track him down.
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: He's my favorite documentarian.
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, and it's one of my favorites.
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: Of grisly Man is epic. Yeah, it's have.
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: You seen Happy People? No, that's a great one too.
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: Is that new?
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: No? No, it's a few years old. It's life in
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: the Tiger, happy people life and the Tiger. It's about
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: these people that live in Siberia off the Tiger River,
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: and they're like the happiest people and all they do
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: is like hunt and fish and trap and they get together.
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: They have really strong community. They drink and they're laughing
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: and they have like no mental illness. It's really weird,
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: as he documents it.
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: He has such have you seen Little Deeter needs to fly? No,
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: the only man rescued from Laos during the Vietnam War
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: and Hertzog go. He's died since Deeter, but Hartzog goes
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: with him back into the jungle. Wow, oh my god,
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: you're gonna love it. It's a treat that you haven't
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: seen it yet. Little Deeterer needs to fly.
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: That guy is such a world treasure. O, my god.
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: Just his voice and like his perspective on everything. Just
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: when you think, just when I think I know what
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: he's going for, he takes you like on a complete
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: left turn and your left, like, at least for me,
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: thinking about the world in a completely new, original way.
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So these caves in France, they thought that that
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: was the old but that was really old, right, wasn't
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: Wasn't that like thirty plus thousand year old drawing?
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: I think maybe Jamie and Jack Ross I think they
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: were like seven thousand basy, you know, so like I.
• 36:26
  Speaker 4: Think they were older than ever nineteen forty by four
• 36:28
  Speaker 4: teenagers closed in sixty three. All pangs created around seventeen.
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: Thousand, seventeen thousand, Okay, yeah.
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: That's it. I thought it was old.
• 36:39
  Speaker 4: It's just a quick explanation.
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: This is the Werner Herzog documentary. I thought they were
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: like literal cave men made it. Well, I mean, so
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: that's only seventeen thousand years ago, so that says interesting.
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: I really thought it was a lot older than that.
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: But then they come up with like the hand on
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: the cave in Indonesia. I think that's forty thousand.
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: And believed to be nineteen thousand years ago. That's interesting.
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: So at one point in time they thought that was
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: the oldest.
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: When I was a kid, I remember that, Like, it's.
• 37:16
  Speaker 4: Not quite what it says. Caning for the site were
• 37:18
  Speaker 4: duplicated with the same materials which were used to believe,
• 37:22
  Speaker 4: which were used nineteen thousand years That doesn't meaning oh right,
• 37:25
  Speaker 4: could still builder right?
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: They knew that they used them nineteen thousand years ago,
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: but they could have used them a lot earlier, right, right,
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: We don't have documents. Crazy stuff though, Just imagine like
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: living back then.
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: It is wild when you think about the underground bunkers
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: now and it kind of has this spooky echo as
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: an archetype.
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: Of hiding, hiding from the dangers. Yeah, having a shelter
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: and hiding from the the whole. That trope, that thought
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: of a bunker is. You know there's a lot of
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: supposedly wealthy people, Well they are wealthy, but supposedly they
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: have these underground bunkers. That's what you always hear. These
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: rich people, these billionaires are setting up bunkers in New
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: Zealand because they know something's coming.
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: Like, oh Jesus, right, good luck getting there in time.
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, right right. If the shit goes down and you
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: happen to be in Hawaii and you got to get
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: to New Zealand.
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: Also, your bodyguards are a lot stronger than.
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: You are, well, wouldn't you bring them with you?
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's going to be every man for themselves.
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: Well, wouldn't you have it? If you're going to have
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: that kind of money to make a wouldn't you have
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: a bunker that could house a few hundred people so
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: that you could, you know, nobody gets insurrection in your movement.
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: I mean, I suppose if you bring everybody's family, you
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: have to have a lot of preparing for this. That's
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: what really kept taking me back to those document the
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: documents and the Defense Department about fear of infection creates anarchy,
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: right and insurrection because this idea of like fear of
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: an infection, people begin to their mind actually begins to
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: change in the studies under scarcity right and scarcity coupled
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: with fear of infection, it's so visceral, it's like it's
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: as much of an archetype as the bunker. Being infected
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: very very different than being shot at. Right, you get
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: the sense, if you can get into the bunker, if
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: you're being attacked with a physical weapon, okay, I'm safe,
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: Now close the doors, make a fire. But with fear
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: of infection, I mean a biological weapon or any pathogen
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: is a living munition. Itself replicates and it's got an
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: incubation period so then it acts right.
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: So then you can be infected and not know it
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: while it's incubating inside of your body and then you
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: infect a bunch of other people as well.
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And we saw it during COVID how aggressive people
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: got screaming at people for not wearing masks. And you
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: know that was as far as pandemics go.
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: Fairly mild, Yeah, fairly mild. Like I mean, if you
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: go with the CDC's one percent or your zero point
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: one percent of the case or right, perplexities, I mean,
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: you're talking about a nothing burger compared to two. Okay,
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: so mneumonic plague and there are you know. I mean, look,
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: I also write in the book, and this has never
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: been reported before because I interviewed CIA officers who both
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: debriefed the Soviet defectors and also people who chased WMD
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: in the hands of terrorists during the War on Terror.
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: And I specifically didn't want to write that scenario because
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: it's so loaded to go with, like terrorist youth use
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: of a biological agent. But I give you little history
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: lessons when I stop the drama, one of which involves
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: an al Qaeda terrorist that was captured. She's actually now
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: in Texas in a mental institution for the rest of
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: her life. Her name's Afs Sidiki. She's an MIT trained
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: biologist related by marriage to Khalid Sheik Muhammad Okay, and
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: she was leading the biological weapons program. This is according
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: to the CIA officer.
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: She was.
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: Trained at MIT and then she went back to Pakistan.
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: She was the first woman on the FBI's most wanted
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: terrorist lists.
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: How come they have her in a mental institute.
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: Because they caught her And then this part is reported.
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: They caught her and somehow again the air quote, somehow
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: she got a hold of a marine's rifle and fire
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: and was firing at the FBI agent's interviewing her. This
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: is all public and she was shot. They take her
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: to the United States, gave her a trial, decided she
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: was insane, put her in a mental institution. But what
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: had never been revealed before my book is that in
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: her handbag she had plans to create a genetically modified
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: pathogen that mixed rabies with chicken pox. Think about that.
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: Imagine airborne rabies. Rabies, like pneumonic plague, is one of
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: the only other pathogens that has one hundred percent death
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: rate without countermatters.
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: And rabies like when you see it in animals. I've
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: never actually encountered a rabbit animal in the wild as
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: much as I know. But when you see them they
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: want to infect something else. They get hyper aggressive, they
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: want to bite you. So if they bite you, they
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: give it to you, which is really crazy, like this,
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: this disease makes them throw their own safety out the
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: window and just go after people and try to bite them.
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's like a It's like rabies is a
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: like now its own a rabid animal, you know, you
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: think of it. It's so visceral, right, it's going to
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: come at you with its infected cele. I almost went
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: with the rabies scenario because I always in these scenarios
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: tie them to actual events that have happened, so that
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: there's so that readers don't go like, this is Annie
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: Jacobson's dystopian imagination. As much as they say, oh, she's
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: following what you know science This is science fact, not
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: science fiction. And so when I learned about that plan
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: for the genetic modification of rabies and chicken airborne rabies,
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: But then.
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: I thought, how far did she get along with this?
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: That is classified?
• 43:32
  Speaker 4: Annie?
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: You know, but I did get a second person, David Relman,
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: who's the advisor to the President on biodefense, to confirm
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: with me that that was actually located in her handbag
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: and caused serious concern.
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: Well, no, imagine if they never found her. They never
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: caught her and she completed that.
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's really terrifying.
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: That wipes out most of the country and also.
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: Just in the most horrific way. I mean, you know,
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: like having to like look at your pat and be like,
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: is my pat rabbit?
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: It's just us catch it too. Another project, Oh, she
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: had another project, multiple projects. Parents. She had collected materials
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: on viruses for biological warfare. In one of her projects
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: is finding its way to infect America's poultry supplies with
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: an antibody that would allow chickens to pass salmonilla onto
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: humans more easily. She later destroyed her work after suspecting
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: Abu Lubob was hoping to double cross her and turn
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: her into the United States authorities.
• 44:29
  Speaker 4: This is a long Wikipedia with quite a bit of
• 44:32
  Speaker 4: twist and terns. I'm surprised it's not a movie. It's
• 44:35
  Speaker 4: a lot going on.
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: Oh my god, And that's one person that we caught. Now,
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: that's not like this is the only time they thought
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: of that. This is the only person that they tried
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: to recruit to do this. Kind of stuff. There's probably
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: someone out there right now, hmm. Hence your book.
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: I mean, I interviewed this guy, very famous, legendary CIA
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: officer named Rolf Mowatt Larson, and he led the counter
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: WMD team, right, so he would go to places basically
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: like with a bunch of ground branch guys CIA paramilitary
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: guys behind him. He was kind of like the intelligentsia
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: at the front to try to negotiate with al Qaeda
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: weapons makers, biological weapons makers and say like, you can't
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: do this, it's gonna kill all of us. And he
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: told me a couple of stories and I write them
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: like history lessons in the book. Once he went to
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: Sudan and met with the top biological weapons maker for
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: al Qaeda, and like, you know, it's just chilling. It's
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: basically you get the feeling like that. Rolf said, I
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: got them to agree to stop temporarily. Temporarily temporarily, Sorry, Joe,
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: this is the nightmare stuff.
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: So what do they think that they're gonna do if
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: they get into these bunkers. This is the thing. It's
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: like if society completely collapses and anarchy just sweeps the nation,
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: and you've got cities on fire, and people killing people
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: and looting. Eventually they're going to run out of food.
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: Eventually there's going to be no infrastructure. You've got no power,
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: You've got no one who's taking care of the water.
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: No one's taking care of the satellites, No one's taking
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: care of anything. The cell phone towers are down. What
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: are these people in the bunk are going to do?
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: Are they going to reinvent society?
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: Well, that's the plan down the road. But before they
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: have that, they're part five of the devolution plan is
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: called reconstitution. Oh Jesus, So they're going to reconstitute the
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: government like rise again like a phoenix from the ashes.
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: But before that, I also learned the government has issued,
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: rather the Pentagon has issued one point seven million gas
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: masks to its personnel, so they fan out across the states,
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: but they can not really handle the numbers of people
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: who are actually going to pretty quickly. So instead what
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: their job is is to protect the critical infrastructure, all
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: that stuff you exactly mentioned.
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: So they just just assuming that most people are going
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: to die.
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean this is the quote. This is
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: the exact quote from Colonel Tom Earhard, who ran catastrophic
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: nuclear and biological wargames at the Pentagon. For have you
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: ever heard of a very famous guy They called him
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: Yoda at the Pentagon. He died like a couple of
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: years ago at age one hundred. His name is Andy Marshall.
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: He ran the Office of net Assessment. Talk about a
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: euphemism or like a cloaked that's where they did all
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: the wargaming. And Andy Marshall did this in the seventies,
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: all the way through his recent death, and Tom Earhard
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: worked for him. It's in the Office of the Secretary
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: of Defense. So what Aerhard told me is in the
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: event of a biological catastrophe, and by the way, that
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: includes not just an attack, but an incident, and an
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: incident means a lablaque, Okay. So in the event of
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: a catastrophic biological incident, there is very little you can
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: do to protect the homeland. Only things you can do
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: to mitigate extermination.
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: Of the human race.
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: That's his quote. Mitigate exterminy, mitigate extermination.
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: So you want to keep as many people alive as possible,
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: but it's probably going to be a very small amount.
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: And it's probably just going to be the one point
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: seven people with the gas mask and a whole bunch
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: of like Machavelian sollopsysts ca.
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: You imagine if our society had to be re invented
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: with only people that work in the government. Can you
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: imagine and some of the most incompetent, crooked people in
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: the world, and that's the new society.
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: Well, I have a feeling most of the bureaucrats would
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: die because I don't think they could, you know, take
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: care of themselves, right. I think the people that would
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: live would be those well trained soldiers.
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: Well, that's not bad. That's probably a better scenario.
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: But the other problem you're looking at is reproduction, because
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: there's seventeen percent females in the military.
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: That's not good.
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: That's not good. And then the other problem is that
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: the other people who are left that are not in
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: the military are imagine the skills you have to have
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: to be able to deal with fear of infection in
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: a manner that you basically have to be able to,
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: as it was said to me, kill people on site,
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: like not even worrying about whether this is where it
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: really feels like the Walking Dead or you know, an
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: apocalyptic movie.
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: Twenty eight Days Later was based on that. But twenty
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: eight days later was a lab leaku. Yes, yes, remember
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: it was called Rage. It was something they were doing
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: with chimpanzees and chimpanzee bite somebody.
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: That's how it opens, it spreads. Those are great films.
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: Those are great.
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: Do you see the New One?
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: I think no, I haven't seen anyone.
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: Oh the New One parts one end two.
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: I mean there's parts one end two. Yeah, it's a
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: two part.
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: Two part or they released them like six months apart. There.
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: They're incredible.
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: I mean, don't get worn out from those kind of movies.
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's a certain you have to have a.
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: Certain there's no happy ending, I don't.
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: I mean, Joe, I'm an eternal optimist, I really am.
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: But I just figure all of this is a cautionary tale.
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: And I also figure it's better to know well.
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: And I think you do an amazing job of that.
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: And I think you're a very important person in that regard.
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: You inform people of these things that you really should
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: be considering that. I mean, your nuclear war book freaked
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: a lot of people out that we're kind of you know,
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: nuclear war was in the back of their mind. You know, yeah,
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: it's a possibility, but Hey, we haven't done it. We
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: dropped a couple of bombs during the World War Two
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: and that's it. We're done with that.
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: You know, you said something to me last time we
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: spoke about the Nuclear War book that really stayed with me,
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: and it has an interesting coda. So you were like, Annie,
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: I couldn't read Nuclear War. It freaked out a lot
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: of my friends. I can't read it. And then you
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: explained why, and you said, I'm paraphrasing you, but you said,
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: I think about those people at Hiroshima and Nagasaki and
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: they were just going about their daily life and all
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: of a sudden they're incinerated. And that really stayed with me,
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: and I thought about it. Here's the coda. The survivors
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: are called hibaksha, that's what they call themselves. It's like
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: survivors of the nuclear bomb. So now, since it was
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: eighty years ago, they're all like eighty one to ninety plus,
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: and they were stigmatized throughout their youth because the idea
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: was you're radioactive, you can't reproduce your sort of you know,
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: there's like a maligna midle ignant thing attached to you.
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: This is what they told me, and I met them
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: and they I was invited to Hiroshima to be the
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: keynote speaker with the Haboksha for the eightieth anniversary of
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: the bombing.
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: What did they say the experience was like in terms
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: of being beligned, like what was happening to them?
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: Well, the sense I got was very much that they
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: believed that was accurate. They had no other information. They
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: had no other information other than people telling them.
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: They were radioactive.
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Now what was also interesting is a couple of
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: the younger people who were who don't remember, who were
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: like infants their mothers, Like let's say one parent died
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: and another so the living parent would shield them from
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: that by never telling them that they were habaksha. So
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: then they had this whole other kind of realization later
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: in life when they learned and some of I mean
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: those stories were like incredible because you're learning about how
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: like a parent's love for a child means not telling
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: them what you think would make them feel stigmatized. But
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: yet you've them explaining to me that they felt that
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: stigma throughout their life anyways, not knowing why.
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: I never even would have considered that stigma. I would
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: have considered survivor's guilt, survivor's guilt, which people do have
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: if you're a part of a disaster and you're one
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: of the ones that lived. Yeah, people get survivor's guilt.
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: But I never would have thought of the stigma of
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: being maligned as an infected radioactive person.
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: And Japan has such a different culture. I couldn't have
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: imagined that either until I heard it firsthand from the
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: experience of the survivors. They sent some of them to
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: an island like Banish, as if you're a leper, how.
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: Much is this Iran thing freaking you out?
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: The war? Yeah, look, I mean when anyone starts a
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: war that's not necessary. That's the wrong word for it.
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: But you know, just like this is the whole It's
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: just a terrible, terrible, terrible idea. It just seems to
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: me like the opposite of what the Department of Defense.
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: It's why I continue to call it the Department of Defense,
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: by the way, because it still is in my mind,
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: and certainly until Congress changes the name. You know, it's
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: supposed to be for defense, right.
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: So.
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: I think so so much of what I have written
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: about all the wars since World War Two, I've interviewed
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: one hundred more or more people for each of my
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: eight books who have been in every war. And the
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: big shift for me, like understanding a change in mind mindset,
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: was the Bush Cheney administration starting the Iraq War. Like,
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: I really believe that many of the problems we're experiencing
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: today as a society stem from that, and that has
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: to do with the fact of all the soldiers that
• 55:17
  Speaker 2: I've interviewed, there's a completely different perspective on the government
• 55:24
  Speaker 2: from those who fought in the wars leading up to
• 55:29
  Speaker 2: the War on Terror and the people who most of them,
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: you know, many of these people too, like they're mad.
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: They're really mad that they were used. That's a sense
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: that I get now. Not everyone, but a majority are
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: very angry and feel used. And that is a fundamental
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: warping of what the military is.
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, without doubt, and also no clear way to resolve
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: this at all. Yes, and it seems like our stockpiles
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: are running dry, you know, We're bases are getting blown
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: up by drones.
• 56:13
  Speaker 2: I heard, you know, I heard Joe Kent, who was
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: the number two at ODE and I who resigned. I
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: heard him say a really interesting thing about the warrior
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: class that I hadn't you know, when you just like
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: have all this information but you didn't put something together
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: and then you hear it and you're like, of course.
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: And what Joe said was one of this was in
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: reference to Trump maybe saying there was going to be
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: or someone in this administration saying there should be a draft,
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: and everyone freaking out and saying like that's you know,
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: that's outrageous. And Joe Kent's point was really interesting. He said,
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: there should be a draft, but not for reasons you think.
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: And he said, presently America has a warrior class, and
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: Joe Kent is in it, meaning you know, these are
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: like a don't have the exact statistic one percent less
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: than one percent of families who are in the military.
• 57:13
  Speaker 2: And he said, Kent said, you know, we socialize with
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: one another, Our kids socialize with one another, we go
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: to school with one another, we go to war with
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: one another, we talk together, we have parties together, and
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: we know something about America that is completely foreign to
• 57:29
  Speaker 2: all the other families. And it's there's something wrong with that.
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: And I've really thought about that a lot since and
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: I agree with him. And his point about the draft
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: was if everybody knew and experienced what we experience in
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: our families. Talking about war versus peace, wars would be
• 57:53
  Speaker 2: looked at differently.
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: Instead of thinking we should go to war like a
• 57:59
  Speaker 1: Lindsey Graham type perspective, where's no real skin in the game.
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: He's not going to go get shot. No one he
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: knows is going to go get shot. Yeah, absolutely makes sense.
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: So that's kind of my answer to you know, and
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: I like, I'll see a headline that's like the war
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: and around costs US X y z billion dollars and
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: it's like it doesn't even mention all the people dying,
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: you know, there's like ten and yes, the Americans, but
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: like it's just talk about misreporting.
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: Right, it's just talking about money, which is.
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: Crazy, which is crazy, which is crazy.
• 58:35
  Speaker 1: And then it also the real problem is it makes
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: America an enemy and it makes us less safe because
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: America has done this thing, this unprovoked attack, and so
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: now they have a reason to attack back.
• 58:49
  Speaker 2: It's it's very like slippery, you know, it's like untrustworthy.
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: I mean I always go back to like the way
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: you behave with your family is the way the you
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: should present to the world. Otherwise you're being a hypocrite
• 59:04
  Speaker 2: and the idea that we're we as a country are
• 59:08
  Speaker 2: kind of like, you're not really sure what we're up to,
• 59:11
  Speaker 2: and then it's changing. It's like radically changing. The pendulum
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: swings so far from what one administration's you know, list
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: of really important things is to another. I mean it
• 59:27
  Speaker 2: must from an outside perspective, it must be really schizophrenic looking.
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So to get back to your book, how many
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: different countries do we know are involved in this kind
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: of biological war research?
• 59:51
  Speaker 2: So for starters, biological war is illegal. Biological weapons are illegal,
• 59:57
  Speaker 2: unlike nuclear weapons. Believe it or not, a perfectly legal
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: for the countries that have them. Wrap your head around that.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 2: But everybody signed a treaty in nineteen seventy two called
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 2: the Biological Weapons Convention Treaty saying we will not make
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 2: biological weapons. They are odious to the conscience of mankind.
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: At that point, the Soviets signed the treaty, crossed their
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 2: fingers behind their back, and made a ginormous biological weapons
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 2: program that you talked about earlier. Okay, America allegedly destroyed
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 2: her arsenal of biological weapons, which took two hundred and
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 2: nineteen weeks to destroy by the way, and not for
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 2: another twenty years did we learn that actually the Soviets
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 2: were running this biological weapons program. And we only learned
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 2: it because of the Soviet defectors. The CIA had no idea,
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 2: Defense Department had no idea.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: So we had completely stopped all of that.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 2: Work, according to the document, According to anyone you interview,
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 2: we had stopped biological.
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: Uptil what year was this?
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 2: Hall Nixon made a declaration in nineteen sixty nine like
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 2: we're just giving up our biological weapons program, and then
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: everyone else followed suit and the treaty came about in
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 2: nineteen seventy two.
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: But the Soviets continued their work.
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 2: The Soviets not only continued, they just like they like
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 2: went bang on it and they later called it their
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 2: Manhattan Project.
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: And weren't there bio weapons labs.
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 2: In Ukraine you're talking about recently, Yeah, that.
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: The United States was involved in what.
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: There are are there are biological there are biosafety labs. Okay,
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 2: So your original question was where are they around the world?
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 2: So they're illegal? But what isn't illegal? Because this is
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 2: a carve out in the treaty you can do research
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 2: for prophylactic purposes, for medical countermeasures. That's the carve out.
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 2: So that's where we've gotten to gain a function. You see, Oh,
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 2: we're just doing this for prophylactic purposesd okay. So before
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: nine to eleven, nine to eleven factors into this, and
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 2: so does Dick Cheney, because before nine to eleven, America
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 2: had two BSL four labs bio safety Level four. That's
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 2: the highest level. That's like you saw the suits, the tubes,
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 2: your arms are in the boxes, you're taking a chemical
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 2: shower before you go in. America had two one at
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 2: Fort Dietrich that's the DoD's lab. One at the CDC
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 2: in Atlanta that's the civilian lab. Nine to eleven happens.
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 2: Remember the anthrax attacks never solved, thank you FBI. Dick
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 2: Cheney personally is terrified of bioweapons, and he spearheads the
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 2: efforts for this giant biological military industrial complex that then
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: takes off and begins with billions of dollars pumped into
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 2: gain of function type research, and America goes from having
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 2: two BSL labs to having fifteen, and the world follows suit.
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 2: So there are one hundred and ten BSL four labs
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 2: around the world, including in countries that are at war.
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 1: And this is all post Bush.
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 2: Administers post Bush administer. That is when it took off,
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 2: That is when it took off. Wow, So America has
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 2: a hand in the blossoming of this problem most certainly.
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 2: And then when you find out that, so you think
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 2: BSL four, okay, well BSL three that just must be
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 2: like you know, chicken box. No, in the BSL three labs,
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 2: you can work with plague, anthrax, hantavirus, like serious diseases
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 2: that allegedly have cures. And so you know how many
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 2: BSL three labs there are in the United States of
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 2: America right now?
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 1: How many?
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 2: Fifteen hundred, fifteen hundred ooh and around the world there
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 2: are three thousand, five hundred, ninety percent of them have
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 2: no guidelines for safety.
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: Did you hear about the story where there was a
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 1: man in Vegas that had a bio lab in his
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: garage in California? Yes, in California another one.
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 4: They're both there's and they were seemingly linked.
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 1: Oh boy, the possibly tied to California case Federal Chinese investigation.
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 4: Yeah, wait till I share what's at the bottom.
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 1: Oh boy, Jamie, why are you doing this to No
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 1: case appeared filed in state federal court as of Sunday.
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 4: Like it's and I didn't really see a follow up.
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 2: I haven't seen the dead mice, Jamie. What was what's
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 2: for the dead mice?
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 4: And dead mice? There's viles including HIV malaria.
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 1: Well, the crazy thing is the guy who they caught,
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 1: they didn't arrest him, Like there was an Israeli guy.
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: So this has Chinese investigation. But one of them was
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 1: a guy who was an Israeli guy who they caught
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 1: and they sent him away. He just they didn't prosecute him.
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 1: He took off.
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 2: I mean, this stuff is so thinly reported, and it's
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 2: always got like a giant sensationalist clickbait type headline, and
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 2: people read about it and know about it a little bit,
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 2: and then the real reality behind it I think gets
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 2: completely lost, which is that the bottom line is that
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 2: the barrier to entry in the biological weapons field is
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 2: so incredibly low it's horrifying. Like, think about what you
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 2: need to have a nuclear weapon a lot. I mean
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 2: look at around right now. Yeah, okay, you have to
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 2: have enriched uranium or platonium. You have to have viscile material,
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 2: then you have to have a weapon system. You have
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 2: to have an ICBM or a submarine or a B
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 2: two bomber. Nuclear weapons are tightly controlled by a nation's
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 2: command and control structure. All subject matter experts I interviewed
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 2: for this book expressed their serious concern that the barrier
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 2: for ENTR is so low that basically, a given computational
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 2: systems AI enabled bio, basically a high school student with
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 2: limited knowledge of biology can make a bio weapon in
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 2: their basement or in the Vegas apartment building.
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 1: Well, this guy had it in his garage and they
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 1: caught him.
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 2: And what was he doing?
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 4: Do we know?
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: I don't know. They referenced it as a storage facility,
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 1: and they said that was it.
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 4: Obviously, yes, for storage facility, Yeah.
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 1: I said, not a laboratory, adding that the samples and
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 1: equipment suggested no active work was happening there. But it says,
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 1: I think the question is, why does somebody have these
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 1: materials in a private residence. It's not a doctor, not
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 1: a lab, not a licensed medical facility of any sort.
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 2: This guy, and it's a great question, and I wonder
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 2: what the answer is.
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 4: I also think it was like an Airbnb or something.
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 1: That's kind of like that.
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 4: It gets lost in that grew in the LLC who
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 4: owned it. This said the guy who was running it
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 4: doesn't own it.
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 1: And twelve hundred samples.
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 2: Oh god, what was he doing? What was he doing?
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 1: And I think they released him. That's what's crazy. The
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 1: guy in Vegas was released? Is that correct?
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 4: That's what I was trying to say when I googled that.
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 4: I didn't really see a follow up onlike anything updated
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 4: or new.
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure they were I'm pretty sure the guy
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 1: in Vegas was an Israeli citizen and he was released.
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 1: So the question is like, what was he doing? And
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 1: he was caught? But that's just one guy that was
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 1: stupid and got caught. How many people are doing that?
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: How many are there sleeper labs all across the country?
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 4: Or he Solomon charges dropped it says the property to manage.
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 1: Whoopsies.
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 4: Maybe it's no big property manager.
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no big deal.
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 4: He didn't do it prejudice still faces criminal charge in
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 4: Clark County for improper disposal of hazardous ways.
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 1: But didn't he leave and go back to Israel? I mean,
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 1: this is just looking at I think that was the allegation.
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 4: He's due back in court on June fourth, which was
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 4: already hanths ago. Yeah, so I don't that's see. I
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 4: didn't see anything about it.
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 1: I'll look it up. Yeah, nothing to see here. It
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 1: says it is Raeli citizen. Right, didn't say that. Go
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 1: back to the right wig on a.
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 4: Non immigrant visa is not allowed to possess firearms. Prosecutor
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 4: to say multiple guns receives from.
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 1: Well, you gotta have guns if you've got plague.
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 2: You've got to look out for your car or your plague.
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 2: But you know, I stayed away from that kind of
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 2: loan actor crazy because that's a loan actor. I mean exactly,
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 2: you don't know.
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 1: And if it was, would you think they'd let him go? Yes,
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 1: that's my question. If it's a loan actor, would they
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 1: really let him go? Or is he connected to somebody
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 1: and that's how he got out. I mean.
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 2: One of the problems of the over politicization of everything
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 2: is that it just seems like anything important becomes splatter
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 2: and becomes secondary to some of these other concerns that
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 2: seem to take headlines, right, like that should be a
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 2: big story, and yet all any of us ever heard
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 2: was did you hear about the crazy biolab right, I
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 2: can tell you that the bigger story is really, at
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 2: least to my eye, you know, because this is another one.
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 2: Oh thank god nothing got out, thank god no one
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 2: was infected. But the real issue is what happens if
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 2: someone does get what happens if a pathogen gets seated
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 2: in the community and an outbreak starts to move to
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 2: an epidemic and you know the look I write in
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 2: the end of the book, Joe. The point is not panic.
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 2: This is, of course, after I take you through like
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 2: the worst dystopia nightmare. Ever, the point is pressure, pressure
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 2: to understand the threat. The labs around the world, the
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 2: bureaucracy involved all the different problems that would come up
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 2: of mitigating the threat so that you can be informed
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 2: and also say, like what a minute, something really needs
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 2: to be done and needs to be looked at here,
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 2: And instead people are arguing about the most obvious thing
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 2: in the world. To my eye, you know, what happened
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 2: in the sunny yesterday, Like that is pretty obvious. What happened?
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 2: What is being covered up? We were misled And yet
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 2: all of this I'm not saying to skip over it
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 2: and you know. But it's it's like, how much effort
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 2: do we put on something without a resolution? That's what
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 2: confounds me. M.
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a really good question. And the fact that
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 1: there's so many labs country and that they've all sprung
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 1: up post two thousand and one.
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 2: They moved that Plum Island lab by the way to
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 2: Kansas and it either just opened or is about to open.
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 2: It costs an extraordinary amount of money.
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 1: And now they do in the same research.
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 2: Yep, they moved it off of Plum Island and now
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 2: it's in cancer.
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 1: Do you know anything about this alpha gal tic, this
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 1: lone star tick that gives people this allergy to red meat?
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 2: A little bit? A little bit inasmuch that it's a parasite,
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 2: which is different, you know, as it's a bug, which
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 2: is different than a germ. But I think it speaks
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 2: to this idea that sort of they are natural things
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 2: that are happening in our environment, and then there are
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 2: also unnatural things and the inability to differentiate between them
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 2: or trust. Look, so much of all this has been
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 2: about trust the science, and then okay, we can't trust
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 2: the science unfortunately around COVID, and we're all waiting for
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 2: reckoning around COVID. It's obviously not coming anytime soon. And
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 2: in the meantime, you have you know, the lettuce outbreak,
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 2: you have the alpha gole, you have Legionnaire's disease from
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 2: data centers, and your there's an influx of health concerns
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 2: coming from Mother Nature herself. Here we are in this
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 2: world of incredible science and technology. I mean, I talked
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 2: to biotechnologists, who, by the way, really have a utopian
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 2: take on this. Now there is lots of money involved
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 2: for them, but they really believe that science is the
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 2: answer and can be the answer to a lot of
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 2: these problems. I was I sat next to a guy
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 2: at dinner a couple nights ago who told me that
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 2: his company in San Diego has a countermeasure for alpha
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 2: gol I have no idea of verifying this has just happened,
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 2: but that the reason they can't get it through is
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 2: because of insurance.
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 1: You know, one of the treatments it's supposed to be
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 1: very effective is acupuncture on your ears.
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 2: On your ears.
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, see if you can find anything on that I've
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 1: read about this that there's like a ninety percent remission
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 1: that one guy's been able to achieve through acupuncture on
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 1: your ears, which is like what do you what? Like? Hey,
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 1: whatever works, but is this real? Acupunctural acupuncture? Specifically, a
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 1: specialized ear technique called soliman Auricular allergy treatment is being
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 1: explored by integrative practitioners to help manage and potentially achieve
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 1: remission for alphagal syndrome, though it's not yet a standard
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 1: medically proven cure. How it works for alpha gal targeted
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 1: ear points. Provider locates a specific highly reactive electrical point
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 1: on the outer ear associated with the alpha gal immune response.
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 1: Acuhuncture is so weird because it seems to be doing something.
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 2: Do you have acupuncture?
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 1: No? No, I had it done once with the guy
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 1: was a kook and I never went back.
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 2: I feel like acupuncture is so old and comes from
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 2: such a long history of experiences. I have acupuncture, and
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 2: it just seems like any time I go for anything,
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 2: someone wants to give me drugs, which I'm not a
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 2: fan of, I go to the acupuncturist. Sure, call it
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 2: the placebo effect, or call it whatever you want, but
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 2: it certainly works for me.
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 1: I don't necessarily think it's a placebo. I think a
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 1: lot of that really old stuff we like to dismiss
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 1: because we like petroleum based pharmaceutical drugs because that's what
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 1: the doctor gives us a standard of care. I have
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 1: a feeling there's a lot a lot of real It's
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 1: been around too long for them to just keep faking it.
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 2: I mean, if it works, it works, yeah.
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 1: Well this if it turns out that this ear technique
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 1: actually yeah, puts alpha gallon remission, maybe people will take
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 1: that stuff more seriously and start using acupuncture for other
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 1: because I know a lot of people swear by it,
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 1: and I'm always I just kind of raise my eyebroller.
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 1: Good look. But maybe that's just me being ignorant. Definitely,
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 1: that's me being ignorant. A specialized ear acupuncture method called
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 1: the Soloman Auricular allergy treatment shows a high reported success
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 1: rate about eighty five to ninety six percent for putting
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 1: alpha gal syndrome synrome symptoms into remission. That's pretty crazy. Yeah,
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know who did the study, you
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 1: know what.
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 2: I like it. I like that that's out there because
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 2: I always feel like the acupuncturists are sidelined because they're
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 2: not part of the the medical insurance military industrial.
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 4: Complex, and it stays in your ear for three to
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 4: four weeks.
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 1: Oh wow, just like a treatment. It's secured with a
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 1: small adhesive bandage. Wow.
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 4: Interesting, a tiny little needle.
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 1: Hair thin, stainless steel needle. Huh.
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 4: One hundred and three seven patient trial looks like.
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 1: I want how? How? Who fucking figure that out?
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 2: Do you know anyone who's gotten alpha goles?
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 1: Yes, a good friend of mine, Yeah, he has it.
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 2: And what he's become deathly allergic or oh yeah, deeply allergic.
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean it doesn't kill him, but it wrecks him.
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 1: And so he got over it and started eating meat again.
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 1: And then it came back with a vengeance and came
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 1: back even worse than it was before. So it went
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 1: into remission and then it came back, and you know,
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 1: he's really like tighten up his diet and done everything.
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 1: One thing that really helped him was plasma foresis. Do
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 1: you know what that is? It's, uh, they take your
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 1: blood and they filter out the plasma and replace it. Yeah,
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 1: I had it done. I've done done for fun, just
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 1: to see what it feels like. And you get really
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 1: tired the next day. That's one thing. But then the
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 1: day after that, oh my god, you feel amazing. You
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 1: feel like you've just lost twenty years of age, Like
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 1: it really feels incredibly you have so much energy. It's
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 1: really odd. Whatever it is, it's doing something. But people
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 1: that have auto immune issues, people that have allergies, people
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 1: that have a lot of different weird things, apparently they
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 1: have some great responses from that. But my friend, you know,
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 1: he struggled with a bunch of different things and getting
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 1: his blood work and lab work done. He was also
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 1: in the military and spent a lot of time overseas
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 1: and one of the things that he found out is
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 1: p fast pfas these forever chemicals you get from plastics.
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 1: He's got burning plastics. Well it's not just that, it's
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 1: also just hot water. So like they take these bottles
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 1: of plastic bottles of water in cases and they've got
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 1: them sitting out in the sand in the sun in
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 1: Afghanistan and Iraq, and that's their water supply. So they're
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 1: drinking this water that's been sitting out in the sun
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 1: that's leeching in these plastic bottles. So he found out
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 1: that his p fast levels were off the charts, and
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 1: that's because you know, who's deployed overseas all those years
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 1: drinking that water.
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 4: Did you see this about the p fast chemicals? I
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 4: just saw this come out, So I don't know how
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 4: tested it's been, but someone's figured out a way to
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 4: get almost.
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 1: All of it out out of water but not your body.
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 4: Well that's how it's getting in mostly.
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 1: So right, But the problem is once it gets in
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 1: your body, it's the problem scientists. Because my friend still
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 1: had I mean, Evan has it in his body. Scientists
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 1: have developed a clever new way to trap forever chemicals
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 1: and water using nanosized cages that lock onto p fast molecules.
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 1: Unlike current methods, this approach can capture short chain p fast,
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 1: the hardest type to remove. Tests show that it can
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 1: eliminate up to ninety eight percent of these pollutants and
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 1: still work after multiple uses. The discovery could lead to
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 1: more effective water filtration systems worldwide. Well that's good news
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 1: science technology.
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we dull use it could be good. Can it
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 2: can help you or harm you?
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 1: Sure? And there's some brilliant people out there that are
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 1: figuring out ways to mitigate all the stupid things that
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 1: we do like that.
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but people, you know, the whole new creeping up
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 2: of new diseases emerging in sort of like in pockets
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 2: of the country, and feeling like the CDC or the
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 2: HHS has no real lid on it or no real
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 2: explanation I think kind of seriously undermines the general wellness
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 2: of the nation.
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 1: Oh for sure. Well, that was a big problem with COVID,
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 1: is that this feeling of the fear and anxiety affected
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 1: people's immune systems as well, affected their depression levels, affected
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 1: their happiness, like just their over our feeling anxiety. I mean,
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 1: how much of an affect just the cortisol boost all
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 1: the different things that are happening to stressing out your
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 1: body because of that pandemic that we don't even consider
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 1: as being part of that experience.
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 2: I think also when you like, okay, can I give
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 2: you an anecdote because this comes to mind about what
• 1:19:59
  Speaker 2: you're saying, is like that idea that there's uncertainty, okay,
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 2: and uncertainty raises your cortisol levels. And even worse is
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 2: when you're uncertain about something you're being told is true
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 2: but you're like I'm uncertain. That is like even more
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 2: anxiety making right. One of the things that's stunning to
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 2: me is how the CDC and the WHO they're supposed
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 2: to be these pillars of sort of the north star
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 2: of you know, public health. At least they certainly were
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 2: when I was a kid. You really looked up to
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 2: these organizations. Okay, COVID happens. This the WHO and the
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 2: CDC both issue. They're tweeting out three months into the pandemic,
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 2: COVID not airborne? Not is in capital letters. I have
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 2: a copy of the tweet in the book because no
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 2: one really believes this unless they see it. Okay, COVID
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 2: was airborne. COVID was airborne. That is how we all
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 2: got covid. COVID it is makes something incredibly pandemic prone. Okay,
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 2: Instead they said, remember you get COVID from like touching surfaces.
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 2: We're all like out buying lysol. The CDC went into
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 2: a partnership with lysol. Lysol disappeared from the supply chain.
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 2: We now know that's actually called fomite transmission. That's the
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 2: scientific term for getting something off a surface. We now
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 2: know that one in ten thousand cases of COVID was
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 2: transmitted from a surface. How can they have gotten it
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 2: so wrong is a question everybody should be asking and
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 2: the explanation, because by the way, the WHO didn't change.
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 2: They kind of quietly about nine months later started saying
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 2: COVID was airborne, same as CDC. They never said like, look,
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 2: were really sorry, we made a serious mistake and here's why.
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 2: And I called both the CDC and the WHO looking
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 2: for an explanation and asking why. They never made an
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 2: apology and no answer. And I think that's like what
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 2: we're talking about, talk about raising cortisol levels. You know
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 2: when your institution is completely wrong. And by the way,
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 2: I don't think it was nefarious. They literally didn't know
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 2: or they had their panel of experts disagreeing to such
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 2: an extent that they just went with not airborne as
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 2: opposed to airborne.
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 1: Well, it does weird you out that they were in
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 1: a partnership with Lysol, that I had.
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 2: To report that in the book, because that is.
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 1: You just to start thinking about profit motives.
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 2: I mean, if I had to guess it was convenient
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 2: to have a partnership with them, I don't have any
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 2: reason to believe that they were like let's say it
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 2: was Fomite transmission and partner up with Lysol. But I
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 2: certainly if you're a lyceol. You're gonna probably go, hey, guys,
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 2: let's partner together. But you know, it disappeared from the supplies.
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 2: I remember trying to buy liceole not being able to
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 2: at Target.
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 1: This hand sanitizer was everywhere. Everyone was squirting that stuff.
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 1: Now turns out hand sanitizer is just not good for.
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 2: You absent and I still see people using hands handanitizer
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 2: all over the place, bottles of it, like in corporate places.
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 2: It's really bad.
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, your skin is an organ and you're
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 1: taking this stuff that just nukes all of your skin
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 1: flora and you're just wiping your hands with it and
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 1: rubbing it all over you. Like, that's not good. There's
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 1: nothing good about that. Wash your hands, fucking soap. Use
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 1: some soap or not. Don't worry about it as much.
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 2: It seems like the common sense part of health is
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 2: kind of gone out the window. I saw this article
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 2: the other day which was talking about how kids are it.
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 2: Do you remember, like I went to a place I
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 2: grew up in rural Connectic and like the playground was
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 2: like dirt, right, they were like monkey bars dirt, you
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 2: know what I mean? You were like you got dirty.
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 2: I would like yeah, and now it's like, you know,
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 2: fake whatever that stuff is. You know, And this scientific
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 2: study that I came upon when I was looking when
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 2: I was working on this, was like that, actually that
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 2: dirt is really good for you, you know, right, like surprise, surprise,
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 2: We've evolved. We have evolved by you know, dealing with germs.
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 1: Well, that's why kids are always putting things in their
• 1:24:36
  Speaker 1: mouths and touching things like, it's actually probably good for
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 1: them to be exposed to all these different bio bio
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 1: things is different, you know, whatever it is bacteria and germs,
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 1: but it strengthens your immune system.
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 2: It's kind of common sense too, you know, like the
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 2: pacifier rule, you know, when you're a new mom, and
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 2: it's like if it fell on the floor for like,
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's kind of gross, but three seconds then
• 1:24:59
  Speaker 2: it's that one's probably not so good.
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 1: Well, a certain amount of exposure does strengthen your immune system.
• 1:25:06
  Speaker 1: And kids that are just living in these completely sterile environments,
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 1: you got to think that they have an atrophied immune
• 1:25:12
  Speaker 1: system because their immune system is not having to battle
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 1: this stuff. Well, just we're terrified of what we don't know,
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 1: and that's part of the problem with having bad experts
• 1:25:21
  Speaker 1: or experts that have really flawed approaches.
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's what was so interesting writing this book
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 2: because I learned so much about biology and about physiology, right, Like,
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 2: we all deal with disease so incredibly differently. There is
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 2: not a set you know, pathogen a impacts people differently,
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 2: And why there isn't more of that, why people don't
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 2: lean into that mother nature mystery more? And I'm talking
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 2: about public health officials, I don't understand because what has
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 2: happened I see in society is it's created this fracture
• 1:26:03
  Speaker 2: where you're either following a sort of set of scientific
• 1:26:08
  Speaker 2: data which just came from a one lab or one
• 1:26:11
  Speaker 2: group of scientists. You're either following that or you're somehow
• 1:26:16
  Speaker 2: having an alternate narrative that is actually like somehow harmful,
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 2: and it couldn't be more the opposite. It couldn't be
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 2: more the opposite. And when the shit hits the fan,
• 1:26:30
  Speaker 2: you need a kind of unity among people. You need
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 2: a sense of like, Okay, well we all disagree and
• 1:26:36
  Speaker 2: we all have different immune systems, but what's best for
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 2: the kind of greater the collective? And that's just gone now,
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 2: that is completely gone. And I find more than anything
• 1:26:47
  Speaker 2: that people the Fauci Hearing's endpoint like. Instead of being like, hmm,
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 2: maybe I need to change my mind about this, people
• 1:26:56
  Speaker 2: are like, well, if it serves my side, I'm going
• 1:26:58
  Speaker 2: to go louder. Doesn't serve my side, I'm going to
• 1:27:02
  Speaker 2: move on to something else.
• 1:27:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I've seen people talk about what a travesty bringing
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 1: him from the Congress and having him question like that,
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 1: and how much good he's done. I've seen people like
• 1:27:14
  Speaker 1: making these statements online like what are you seeing that
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 1: I'm not seeing because I'm not seeing that. I'm seeing
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 1: someone who doesn't want to tell the truth, and someone
• 1:27:21
  Speaker 1: who's emails show a completely contradictory version of what happened
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 1: versus what he's publicly stated before, including when he was
• 1:27:32
  Speaker 1: testifying before under oath. So he really should be charged
• 1:27:37
  Speaker 1: with perjury. But because of this whole ten year immunity
• 1:27:41
  Speaker 1: thing that he got, he doesn't have to worry about
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 1: any of that, which is also weird because the immunity
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 1: the pardon is supposed to protect you from being prosecuted,
• 1:27:51
  Speaker 1: but then you're no longer supposed to have the Fifth Amendment.
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 2: Yes, I mean those legal things will play out. They
• 1:27:57
  Speaker 2: will take a lot of time, you know, and that
• 1:27:59
  Speaker 2: is that will go on. What I also want to
• 1:28:03
  Speaker 2: know is because none of these things happen in a vacuum, right.
• 1:28:06
  Speaker 2: And it reminds me a little bit of that phrase,
• 1:28:10
  Speaker 2: you know, when the rats jump off the Titanic as
• 1:28:13
  Speaker 2: it was sinking. Because I have a little different experience,
• 1:28:16
  Speaker 2: I watch different individuals, certainly in the news carefully of
• 1:28:21
  Speaker 2: like who's changing, because I just want to learn from it,
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 2: don't report it. I'm just eyeing it, and I'm seeing
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 2: people kind of decide, oh, maybe now I'll say a
• 1:28:29
  Speaker 2: little more about Fauci, right, Because I do think that
• 1:28:34
  Speaker 2: people end up having a They will go where the
• 1:28:38
  Speaker 2: collective is going, right if their party starts to turn okay.
• 1:28:41
  Speaker 2: And because I don't write about politics at all, I'm
• 1:28:45
  Speaker 2: not involved in this, but it's observationally it's interesting to me.
• 1:28:48
  Speaker 2: But for this reason in particular, is that why was
• 1:28:52
  Speaker 2: Fauci in charge? Who there are other people who are
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 2: responsible for letting him be in charge? Like having studied
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 2: the bureaucracy of what happens in a pandemic, in a
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 2: biological incident, which this was, there's no reason that he
• 1:29:10
  Speaker 2: was in charge. There's not doctrine that put him charge
• 1:29:13
  Speaker 2: in charge. It was kind of like a group. Okay,
• 1:29:18
  Speaker 2: he'll be in charge. Really, the person in charge is
• 1:29:23
  Speaker 2: the Secretary of HHS. That is the person in charge.
• 1:29:28
  Speaker 2: In fact, Joe I was invited to the White House
• 1:29:30
  Speaker 2: last week, right, They asked me to come and bring
• 1:29:33
  Speaker 2: some copies of biological war or scenario.
• 1:29:37
  Speaker 1: I went, Did you meet with Trump?
• 1:29:39
  Speaker 2: No, I didn't. I met with AHHS. I met with
• 1:29:41
  Speaker 2: a chief technology officer of HHS, and they said in
• 1:29:46
  Speaker 2: their original email, you know, we're the ones that would
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 2: be in charge in the event of this kind of
• 1:29:51
  Speaker 2: a thing, which I know from having reported it. So
• 1:29:55
  Speaker 2: they're in charge. Why did Fauchi get to take the torch?
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 1: Why do you think?
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 2: I don't know, but it should be looked at. In
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 2: other words, he yes, we all know that he was
• 1:30:10
  Speaker 2: in charge, and he was always But what I don't
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 2: understand is in a billion actually trillion dollar HHS, by
• 1:30:17
  Speaker 2: the way, has a budget that's twice the size of
• 1:30:20
  Speaker 2: the Defense Department, twice the size of the Defense Department,
• 1:30:25
  Speaker 2: and so, and it defaulted to Fauci, who was head
• 1:30:29
  Speaker 2: of NIH then retired, and then he was just chosen
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 2: as like the president's lead medical council or medical professional. So,
• 1:30:39
  Speaker 2: in other words, a group of people put him into
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 2: that position. Who are they? Why? What do they have
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 2: to say about this?
• 1:30:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah? You see, I'm sure part of it was just
• 1:30:54
  Speaker 1: they needed someone to take the reins, and he was
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 1: more than willing to do it and probably confidently stated
• 1:31:01
  Speaker 1: how he would handle it and what we're going to
• 1:31:03
  Speaker 1: do and how to go about it.
• 1:31:05
  Speaker 2: And didn't those people also have an opinion? Like what
• 1:31:09
  Speaker 2: if they saw the John Stewart episode where you know,
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 2: like even if they didn't have an opinion before, why
• 1:31:15
  Speaker 2: didn't they have an opinion after? And why why did
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 2: everybody just fall into line like sheep? That's really more
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 2: interesting to me at this point. In addition to the
• 1:31:27
  Speaker 2: individual being held responsible for obviously misleading the public and
• 1:31:33
  Speaker 2: creating a conspiratorial situation conspiring as simply two or more
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 2: people working to conceal the truth, it's an actual conspiracy if.
• 1:31:42
  Speaker 1: They're a weird thing too that people resist the term
• 1:31:47
  Speaker 1: conspiracy and they think it's foolish.
• 1:31:49
  Speaker 2: It's a legitimate term. I mean, I think when people
• 1:31:52
  Speaker 2: call other people conspiracy theorists, they should just say they
• 1:31:55
  Speaker 2: have an alternative narrative. Yeah, that's all that is. But
• 1:31:58
  Speaker 2: an actual conspiracy is legal term.
• 1:32:01
  Speaker 1: Well not only that, there's a huge amount that you
• 1:32:04
  Speaker 1: can point to in history where there were really people
• 1:32:07
  Speaker 1: conspiring huge amount of stories.
• 1:32:10
  Speaker 2: And the reason why it's legally you know, it's a
• 1:32:14
  Speaker 2: really difficult situation and it needs to be looked at
• 1:32:17
  Speaker 2: is because one person, you know, it can keep a secret, right,
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 2: but when multiple people are involved and a conspiracy is involved,
• 1:32:26
  Speaker 2: you are actively working as a group to mislead, and
• 1:32:30
  Speaker 2: then it becomes easier, more powerful, more effective. And so
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 2: those other scientists, you know, we now know on the
• 1:32:38
  Speaker 2: record that there were a dozen scientists that Fauci looked
• 1:32:43
  Speaker 2: to to give him information about Lablik versus wet market.
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 2: Ten of them went with Lablik, two of them leaned
• 1:32:54
  Speaker 2: toward natural. Fauci wanted it to be natural spillover. You know,
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 2: That's where you could say, then there began and again
• 1:33:05
  Speaker 2: I'm just talking legal terms, I'm not a lawyer, but
• 1:33:07
  Speaker 2: like they began to conspire to change the story. Right,
• 1:33:11
  Speaker 2: Just look at the numbers, yes, look at the numbers. Yeah,
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 2: and so what about that, you know, because I think
• 1:33:17
  Speaker 2: if you're just going to have a single fall guy.
• 1:33:20
  Speaker 2: You're really not going to be doing much for the
• 1:33:24
  Speaker 2: future to have people, you know, a group of people say,
• 1:33:29
  Speaker 2: you know, I don't want to be part of this
• 1:33:30
  Speaker 2: conspiracy because that's an important individual stance that can be
• 1:33:36
  Speaker 2: taken by many people. And we see that among You said,
• 1:33:41
  Speaker 2: you have friends who don't want to kind of take
• 1:33:43
  Speaker 2: a position because they don't want to be associated with
• 1:33:46
  Speaker 2: that group or that group. Well, you know, if it
• 1:33:48
  Speaker 2: starts in the center and there's responsibility for the group,
• 1:33:54
  Speaker 2: I think that makes people think more open mindedly in
• 1:33:58
  Speaker 2: the future.
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 1: The problem was these people's career depended upon them towing
• 1:34:02
  Speaker 1: the line, and if they stepped outside of Fauci's jurisdiction power,
• 1:34:07
  Speaker 1: they were fucked. Absolutely real problem, and he clearly did
• 1:34:10
  Speaker 1: that to people like Jay Baticharia and all these different
• 1:34:13
  Speaker 1: people that got kicked off of Twitter and maligned people
• 1:34:17
  Speaker 1: that were like serious experts that disagreed with a lot
• 1:34:20
  Speaker 1: of different aspects of the pandemic.
• 1:34:21
  Speaker 2: I mean people's they attempted to ruin people's careers. I mean,
• 1:34:26
  Speaker 2: it's so bizarre that it comes around full circle and
• 1:34:29
  Speaker 2: now the people whose career tried to ruin has your job.
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's like a cycle of revenge that is great,
• 1:34:37
  Speaker 2: you know, or a bout a shar I mean, that's
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 2: great for revenge TV, but it's not great in a democracy.
• 1:34:43
  Speaker 1: Well, we're fortunate that it turned out that way, but
• 1:34:45
  Speaker 1: it didn't have to. I mean, if Kamala Harris had won,
• 1:34:47
  Speaker 1: it wouldn't have It would have been a totally different
• 1:34:49
  Speaker 1: administration and it would probably be the same people that
• 1:34:53
  Speaker 1: were there during the Bond administration. Plus and that it's
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 1: weird that the term conspiracy theory became a pejority of
• 1:35:01
  Speaker 1: really during the Kennedy assassination, because there was a bunch
• 1:35:04
  Speaker 1: of people that didn't buy it and they got maligned,
• 1:35:07
  Speaker 1: they got labeled as conspiracy theorists. So then that's when
• 1:35:11
  Speaker 1: that term became this thing that you would apply to Kouks,
• 1:35:15
  Speaker 1: because a conspiracy is a real thing. It's a conspiracy theorist.
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 1: It's like saying, I'm a murder theorist. Oh, murder, Get
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 1: at it. There's no murder. You're a murder when the
• 1:35:26
  Speaker 1: last time you saw a murder? Have you ever seen
• 1:35:27
  Speaker 1: a murder? Shut up? Why are you worried about that?
• 1:35:30
  Speaker 1: It's really kind of same thing because people one like
• 1:35:33
  Speaker 1: you could point to Enron, you could point to the
• 1:35:35
  Speaker 1: weapons of mass destruction thing in Iraq. There's a lot
• 1:35:38
  Speaker 1: of conspiracies that have proven to be a group of
• 1:35:42
  Speaker 1: powerful people who conspired to mislead people.
• 1:35:45
  Speaker 2: It's a serious charge. And when they take down mafia bosses,
• 1:35:49
  Speaker 2: they take them down on fraud, racketeering, and conspiracy exactly.
• 1:35:53
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's just a natural thing that people do
• 1:35:56
  Speaker 1: to protect their own interests or to make money, or
• 1:35:59
  Speaker 1: to high crime or whatever it is. It's normal.
• 1:36:03
  Speaker 2: It's interesting if you change it around and you say
• 1:36:05
  Speaker 2: they were conspiring, it doesn't have the same stink, right,
• 1:36:09
  Speaker 2: which is essentially what that group of scientists were doing.
• 1:36:13
  Speaker 2: They were conspired. We now know from documents that we
• 1:36:18
  Speaker 2: have seen revealed by the Senate in the past couple
• 1:36:21
  Speaker 2: of weeks, that this group of scientists were conspiring to
• 1:36:25
  Speaker 2: mislead the public. That is just if you keep it
• 1:36:29
  Speaker 2: simple on that, and you even take the names out,
• 1:36:33
  Speaker 2: that is a serious And then you might say, wait,
• 1:36:37
  Speaker 2: what were they conspiring about, Oh, a pan the origin
• 1:36:41
  Speaker 2: story of a pandemic which killed all these people, you know,
• 1:36:46
  Speaker 2: deprived kids across America of education, normal education for several years,
• 1:36:54
  Speaker 2: ruined businesses, and kept people from seeing their loved ones.
• 1:36:59
  Speaker 1: There was also a conspiracy to terrify people to make
• 1:37:03
  Speaker 1: it seem like the disease was more deadly than it was.
• 1:37:06
  Speaker 1: They knew that the infection or the death rate was
• 1:37:10
  Speaker 1: much lower than what they're proclaiming. They also knew that
• 1:37:12
  Speaker 1: it wasn't dangerous for kids, and yet they kept saying
• 1:37:15
  Speaker 1: that kids are dying. They kept saying kids are gonna die.
• 1:37:18
  Speaker 1: Everyone's gonna die. They wanted us to be scared, which
• 1:37:21
  Speaker 1: is really terrifying. It's a big part of it, like
• 1:37:23
  Speaker 1: how much could have been changed. How much could that pandemic,
• 1:37:27
  Speaker 1: how much different would it have been if that wasn't
• 1:37:30
  Speaker 1: the case, if we had approached it the way we
• 1:37:33
  Speaker 1: understand COVID now, And if they had said listen, one
• 1:37:36
  Speaker 1: of the big things is your immune system. And America
• 1:37:40
  Speaker 1: needs to be aware that we have very nutrient poor
• 1:37:42
  Speaker 1: diets a lot of us. We're not taking care of ourselves.
• 1:37:46
  Speaker 1: And ironically, the thing is they wanted you to isolate
• 1:37:49
  Speaker 1: and stay indoors. Well outside is how you get vitamin D.
• 1:37:52
  Speaker 1: You get it from the sun. That's the best method
• 1:37:54
  Speaker 1: of getting vitamin D and it's actually good for your
• 1:37:56
  Speaker 1: immune system to be outside, so you're supposed to be
• 1:37:59
  Speaker 1: taking care of yourself, supposed to being vitamins and nutrients.
• 1:38:01
  Speaker 1: And how many more people would have survived if they
• 1:38:03
  Speaker 1: had just did that. How much lower would that death
• 1:38:06
  Speaker 1: rate have ben if they had promoted the use of
• 1:38:08
  Speaker 1: vitamin D along with K two and magnesium, all these
• 1:38:11
  Speaker 1: different things like people need to exercise, need to drink
• 1:38:14
  Speaker 1: more water, be more hydrated, take care of yourself, get sleep.
• 1:38:17
  Speaker 1: All these things affect your immune system. And then on
• 1:38:20
  Speaker 1: top of that, alcohol consumption went way up during COVID
• 1:38:23
  Speaker 1: because people were locked up at home and they were
• 1:38:25
  Speaker 1: just getting hammered all the time.
• 1:38:27
  Speaker 2: I mean, the whole thing, like it was a real
• 1:38:31
  Speaker 2: disaster when you think of it was a catastrophe the
• 1:38:34
  Speaker 2: way it was handled.
• 1:38:35
  Speaker 1: The way is a financial catastrophe for small businesses and restaurants.
• 1:38:40
  Speaker 2: But do you find that people just like sort of
• 1:38:43
  Speaker 2: it's like denially, yeah.
• 1:38:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, has a lot of people that don't want
• 1:38:47
  Speaker 1: to think about it because it was so weird, like
• 1:38:50
  Speaker 1: every now and then, you know, I watch a lot
• 1:38:52
  Speaker 1: of fights for my job and because I love it,
• 1:38:56
  Speaker 1: but I'll watch fights that took place during the pandemic.
• 1:39:00
  Speaker 1: See all the corner people with masks on, and they're
• 1:39:03
  Speaker 1: screaming with masks on. They pull their mask down and
• 1:39:05
  Speaker 1: they yelling out instructions and they have to pull their
• 1:39:07
  Speaker 1: mask back up. It's so weird to see a bunch
• 1:39:10
  Speaker 1: of people just walking around with masks on. It's so
• 1:39:14
  Speaker 1: that to me is that's a great encapsulation of how
• 1:39:20
  Speaker 1: chaotic that scene was because the mask didn't work at all,
• 1:39:23
  Speaker 1: so they weren't doing anything good for you. But yet
• 1:39:26
  Speaker 1: everybody had to have one, and you had to show
• 1:39:29
  Speaker 1: that you're on the right side by wearing a mask.
• 1:39:31
  Speaker 1: I sent a video to a friend of mine group
• 1:39:34
  Speaker 1: chat the other day of this really kooky left wing
• 1:39:38
  Speaker 1: group that demands masks at all their gatherings, and they had,
• 1:39:42
  Speaker 1: you know, like boxes of masks. They're still they're all
• 1:39:45
  Speaker 1: wearing masks and they're talking with masks. And then there's
• 1:39:48
  Speaker 1: this left wing martial arts class that I follow on
• 1:39:52
  Speaker 1: Instagram and they do their martial arts with masks on.
• 1:39:55
  Speaker 1: So they're training, they're doing jiu jitsu with masks on,
• 1:39:58
  Speaker 1: Like this is hilarious, this is so crazy, but they're
• 1:40:02
  Speaker 1: just committed to it, and I say what I've always
• 1:40:04
  Speaker 1: said is that the mask is the left wing maga hat.
• 1:40:07
  Speaker 1: It's a maga hat. It's just for to let people
• 1:40:10
  Speaker 1: know that you're progressive, you're a leftist. I'm gonna wear
• 1:40:12
  Speaker 1: a mask everywhere instead of wearing them in these big
• 1:40:16
  Speaker 1: meetings that they're doing, They're wearing them when they're gathering.
• 1:40:18
  Speaker 1: They're like, what what is this? They're speaking with masks on.
• 1:40:23
  Speaker 1: So they're on a stage nowhere near people with a
• 1:40:26
  Speaker 1: mask on, having speaking into a microphone with a fucking
• 1:40:30
  Speaker 1: mask on in twenty twenty six. So it's like there's
• 1:40:33
  Speaker 1: people that are like, you know those people that didn't
• 1:40:36
  Speaker 1: want to admit that the war was over, and they
• 1:40:38
  Speaker 1: were all like the Japanese found them island. Yeah, that's
• 1:40:41
  Speaker 1: what they like. They're like, we're not giving up. This
• 1:40:43
  Speaker 1: is the war still going on, Like COVID is still
• 1:40:46
  Speaker 1: a real thing. And there's people that have like TikTok
• 1:40:48
  Speaker 1: channels where they're constantly talking about masking. It's important a mask.
• 1:40:52
  Speaker 2: So I went into the La County Department of Building
• 1:40:56
  Speaker 2: in Safety a month ago and I had a sign
• 1:40:59
  Speaker 2: that said, we know the mask mandate is over, but
• 1:41:03
  Speaker 2: we strongly encourage you to wear a mask. True story.
• 1:41:08
  Speaker 1: Well that's so crazy because what is the name of
• 1:41:11
  Speaker 1: this organization that you went to?
• 1:41:12
  Speaker 2: Was the building Building in Safety LA Building in Safety,
• 1:41:15
  Speaker 2: like where you have to go if you're getting a permit.
• 1:41:18
  Speaker 1: So these are the experts, And how do they not
• 1:41:20
  Speaker 1: know the data on masks, because the data on masks
• 1:41:23
  Speaker 1: is pretty clear they don't work, they weren't effective. So
• 1:41:27
  Speaker 1: if they don't work and they didn't stop the spread,
• 1:41:29
  Speaker 1: the transmission or the infection rate, why are you encouraging masks? Yep,
• 1:41:35
  Speaker 1: it's because you're encouraging an ideology, that's what you're doing.
• 1:41:39
  Speaker 2: So one of the guys I interviewed for the book
• 1:41:41
  Speaker 2: Admiral Brett Jurar. Really interesting guy. He was number two
• 1:41:46
  Speaker 2: at HHS during the pandemic. And do you remember when
• 1:41:51
  Speaker 2: the cruise ship happened? This was said, okay, I remember
• 1:41:53
  Speaker 2: that the super spreader event. Oh yeah, so Gerrar really
• 1:41:58
  Speaker 2: interesting guy. Like first guy in a tiny town in
• 1:42:01
  Speaker 2: Texas that goes to Harvard. He's a pediatrician. He's seen
• 1:42:04
  Speaker 2: like kids die. He became head of DARPA bioscientists, Like,
• 1:42:08
  Speaker 2: has this very interesting career? Really stand up guy. He
• 1:42:12
  Speaker 2: did a lot of interviews with me trying to help
• 1:42:14
  Speaker 2: me understand this, and I was asking him about masks.
• 1:42:18
  Speaker 2: So after that cruise ship was quarantined, there were three
• 1:42:22
  Speaker 2: hundred and some odd Americans on it that needed to
• 1:42:24
  Speaker 2: be repatriated, Gurar sends like two top level infectious disease
• 1:42:30
  Speaker 2: experts in biohazard suits on military planes to bring them
• 1:42:35
  Speaker 2: all back. Okay, at this point, they don't know whether
• 1:42:38
  Speaker 2: how deadly it is. This is like a couple weeks
• 1:42:41
  Speaker 2: into the pandemic. They come back, they're in they're quarantined
• 1:42:45
  Speaker 2: at a military base in Texas, and Jurar trying to
• 1:42:49
  Speaker 2: like ease public fear because he's that guy, like he
• 1:42:52
  Speaker 2: did not want people to be afraid. He is seen
• 1:42:56
  Speaker 2: in this news report all the all the people are
• 1:43:00
  Speaker 2: like behind the fence in this chain link fence because
• 1:43:03
  Speaker 2: they're quarantined, and Giras like fifteen feet over there talking
• 1:43:08
  Speaker 2: to them, and he doesn't have a mask on. And
• 1:43:11
  Speaker 2: this is when the first idea of the masks came out.
• 1:43:14
  Speaker 2: And I asked him and I said, why didn't you
• 1:43:17
  Speaker 2: have a mask on? He said, well, first of all, masks,
• 1:43:19
  Speaker 2: It's not just that masks don't work. It's that you
• 1:43:22
  Speaker 2: have to be trained properly. Like a mask can work
• 1:43:25
  Speaker 2: if you have an N ninety five and it's put
• 1:43:28
  Speaker 2: on your face and fitted to your face and it
• 1:43:31
  Speaker 2: works for fifteen minutes. That's what he said. And he said,
• 1:43:34
  Speaker 2: I have a unique nose and facial shape, so the
• 1:43:38
  Speaker 2: mask is never going to work on me. So I
• 1:43:40
  Speaker 2: just stood fifteen feet away. Okay, this is the number
• 1:43:43
  Speaker 2: two at HHS, and I said, why didn't you tell
• 1:43:47
  Speaker 2: us all that? Like, right, okay, first of all, it's
• 1:43:50
  Speaker 2: a little levity, you know what I mean, like that
• 1:43:53
  Speaker 2: the number two.
• 1:43:54
  Speaker 1: Guy in charge has a big nose.
• 1:43:58
  Speaker 2: Right, and that he's the first guy who and that
• 1:44:00
  Speaker 2: the matter is his answer? Why didn't you tell him that?
• 1:44:04
  Speaker 1: Oh?
• 1:44:05
  Speaker 2: He said, I'm paraphrasing, but he was like, you know,
• 1:44:09
  Speaker 2: it was. It was the equivalent of like orders from
• 1:44:14
  Speaker 2: top down, don't argue with what we're trying to accomplish.
• 1:44:19
  Speaker 2: I mean, that was essentially what it is. And when
• 1:44:24
  Speaker 2: I asked him more about that, you know, it's like
• 1:44:28
  Speaker 2: we had so much on our hands that we were trying,
• 1:44:32
  Speaker 2: like he specifically was trying to deal with three hundred
• 1:44:34
  Speaker 2: quarantined people and trying to prepare. You know, he also
• 1:44:40
  Speaker 2: had people that were dying in Japan, like the elderly
• 1:44:42
  Speaker 2: on the ship that couldn't get brought back, and so
• 1:44:45
  Speaker 2: I got the censor from me. He's like a very
• 1:44:46
  Speaker 2: dedicated public servant, in my opinion, and I could see
• 1:44:50
  Speaker 2: from the interviews with him in real time you're dealing
• 1:44:53
  Speaker 2: with so much incredible intense responsibilities. What I take issue
• 1:45:00
  Speaker 2: with after all the fallout and what I see from
• 1:45:03
  Speaker 2: Fauci for example, is that and again this is just
• 1:45:06
  Speaker 2: my opinion, but it seems to be that there are
• 1:45:09
  Speaker 2: people who are actually really dedicated public servants who are
• 1:45:15
  Speaker 2: trying to find a solution filling the shoes that they
• 1:45:20
  Speaker 2: are in, and then there's others who are looking maybe
• 1:45:25
  Speaker 2: more for personal gain, as you said, the money, the
• 1:45:28
  Speaker 2: power of the prestige. And so I think one of
• 1:45:31
  Speaker 2: the most disheartening things that have come out of the
• 1:45:34
  Speaker 2: reveals of the Senate to me is like somebody like
• 1:45:38
  Speaker 2: doctor Fauci, you know, suggesting himself for these million dollar
• 1:45:43
  Speaker 2: awards at a time when people aren't even able to
• 1:45:48
  Speaker 2: see their dying grandmother. And even though it's less legal,
• 1:45:53
  Speaker 2: it's more it speaks more to Are you kidding me?
• 1:45:59
  Speaker 1: The motivation?
• 1:46:00
  Speaker 2: Are you really kidding me?
• 1:46:01
  Speaker 1: Oh? Are you really? You know, like you have your
• 1:46:04
  Speaker 1: staff campaigning for you to get these huge awards.
• 1:46:06
  Speaker 2: And I find it really because, you know, there was
• 1:46:09
  Speaker 2: a review of the New York Times in the New
• 1:46:11
  Speaker 2: York Times of my book, and you know, they actually
• 1:46:13
  Speaker 2: gave lo and behold, they gave me this book a
• 1:46:16
  Speaker 2: great review, like you got to read it. But there's
• 1:46:18
  Speaker 2: one thing this is the reviewer said, there's one thing
• 1:46:20
  Speaker 2: I disagree with Annie Jacobson about. She seems to think that,
• 1:46:24
  Speaker 2: like the government is actually filled with good guys. I'm
• 1:46:27
  Speaker 2: preparing I'm paraphrasing that. But I do believe that, Joe,
• 1:46:32
  Speaker 2: because I've interviewed so many individuals for all aid of
• 1:46:36
  Speaker 2: my books, more than a hundred, and maybe it's just
• 1:46:39
  Speaker 2: the people that I enjoy interviewing, and I know how
• 1:46:42
  Speaker 2: to like, you know, avoid the the sick offense, if
• 1:46:47
  Speaker 2: you will, or the people who are in it for
• 1:46:49
  Speaker 2: the wrong reason. But I feel like there are an
• 1:46:51
  Speaker 2: extraordinary number of people in our military, in our state department,
• 1:46:57
  Speaker 2: in the intelligence community who are actually really capable people
• 1:47:03
  Speaker 2: doing their job under extraordinary circumstances.
• 1:47:06
  Speaker 1: I agree with that, I think if that wasn't the case,
• 1:47:09
  Speaker 1: we live in total complete chaos. I think it takes
• 1:47:14
  Speaker 1: just a few people that have power and that become
• 1:47:17
  Speaker 1: tyrants that run things the way Fauci did, that can
• 1:47:22
  Speaker 1: ruin it for all the good people. If you think
• 1:47:24
  Speaker 1: about those other ten people, imagine if they got to vote,
• 1:47:27
  Speaker 1: the ten people that didn't think that this was a
• 1:47:30
  Speaker 1: natural spillover that thought it was a lablik. If they
• 1:47:33
  Speaker 1: got their say and they put that out there and
• 1:47:35
  Speaker 1: we got to investigate that very early on. Well, you know,
• 1:47:38
  Speaker 1: Fauci was like, I asked all these experts, and it's
• 1:47:40
  Speaker 1: their consensus that it was most likely a lablink. Okay,
• 1:47:43
  Speaker 1: well then you have a totally different narrative. Yes, but
• 1:47:46
  Speaker 1: that's not who he is. The kind of person that
• 1:47:49
  Speaker 1: wants that kind of power and wants that kind of
• 1:47:52
  Speaker 1: influence and has their staff chasing after these million dollar awards,
• 1:47:58
  Speaker 1: that's the kind of person he is, and unfortun those
• 1:48:00
  Speaker 1: are the type of people that become powerful. Those are
• 1:48:02
  Speaker 1: the type of people that want to be president. Those
• 1:48:04
  Speaker 1: are the type of people who want to be senators.
• 1:48:06
  Speaker 1: Most people are good people in everything. Most plumbers are
• 1:48:10
  Speaker 1: good people. Most electricians. Most teachers are good people. It's
• 1:48:14
  Speaker 1: just it doesn't take much. It just takes one bad cop,
• 1:48:18
  Speaker 1: and everybody hates cops.
• 1:48:19
  Speaker 2: I couldn't agree with you more. And that's why I
• 1:48:21
  Speaker 2: think that it's really unfortunate that all of the emphasis
• 1:48:26
  Speaker 2: goes to one person, and the whole party then either
• 1:48:29
  Speaker 2: villifies or puts that person on a pedestal when you've
• 1:48:32
  Speaker 2: got all these other people who are really busting their chops.
• 1:48:36
  Speaker 1: So when you went to the White House and they
• 1:48:39
  Speaker 1: wanted to talk to you about your book, did they
• 1:48:42
  Speaker 1: ask you questions like what should we do? What is
• 1:48:45
  Speaker 1: your advice? What have you learned? What were those kind
• 1:48:49
  Speaker 1: of questions?
• 1:48:50
  Speaker 2: I mean, so they didn't ask me those yet because
• 1:48:56
  Speaker 2: I was bringing them copies of the book right before
• 1:48:58
  Speaker 2: it published read it yet. But what was interesting, it
• 1:49:02
  Speaker 2: was like this strange confluence of events because I also
• 1:49:04
  Speaker 2: got asked to the Senate, and I thought it was
• 1:49:07
  Speaker 2: going to be about biological war. It was like a
• 1:49:11
  Speaker 2: group of nonpartisan senators who wanted to talk to me
• 1:49:13
  Speaker 2: about the Nuclear War book, and that was a different situation.
• 1:49:17
  Speaker 2: They had read the Nuclear War book. It was very impactful,
• 1:49:22
  Speaker 2: Joe In You know, not just national circles, national national
• 1:49:28
  Speaker 2: security circles, but international security sholes. I was invited to
• 1:49:31
  Speaker 2: the Vatican to speak to the cardinals because they were
• 1:49:34
  Speaker 2: preparing something for the Pope on nuclear war. I was
• 1:49:38
  Speaker 2: invited to speak at the United Nations. And this is
• 1:49:43
  Speaker 2: not meant to boast as much as it's meant as
• 1:49:46
  Speaker 2: a like, like, what I think is interesting here is.
• 1:49:50
  Speaker 2: I am a narrative storyteller. I'm not a policymaker. I'm
• 1:49:54
  Speaker 2: not a government official. But what I can do, or
• 1:49:58
  Speaker 2: what I try to do, is to tell you an
• 1:50:00
  Speaker 2: interesting story and get your attention. And so if my
• 1:50:04
  Speaker 2: storytelling is getting this is what I was told at
• 1:50:07
  Speaker 2: the United Nations. For example, the lead diplomat from Austria
• 1:50:11
  Speaker 2: on the new treaty said to me, Annie, your book
• 1:50:16
  Speaker 2: Nuclear War did something that we subject matter experts have
• 1:50:21
  Speaker 2: forgotten to do, which is just make sense to regular people.
• 1:50:28
  Speaker 2: And when things become rarefied and there's only the esoteric
• 1:50:33
  Speaker 2: leaders making decisions, and we've spent our conversation talking about
• 1:50:38
  Speaker 2: how flawed some of these people are. That's like bad
• 1:50:41
  Speaker 2: decision making. And I think what the positive part of
• 1:50:47
  Speaker 2: all of this would be like, and I know it
• 1:50:49
  Speaker 2: sounds pollyannish ish to say information is king. Knowledge is king,
• 1:50:54
  Speaker 2: But like it is because if you have a bit
• 1:50:57
  Speaker 2: more information about a subject that's seen is really threatening.
• 1:51:01
  Speaker 2: I think you can make better judgments about what's going.
• 1:51:06
  Speaker 1: On most certainly, So when you gave these people this
• 1:51:10
  Speaker 1: book and they got a hold of it, did you
• 1:51:13
  Speaker 1: have a timeline of returning to them and discussing with
• 1:51:17
  Speaker 1: them some of the subjects.
• 1:51:18
  Speaker 2: Well, we'll see, this was last week, Joe. I mean
• 1:51:21
  Speaker 2: this was literally last week.
• 1:51:22
  Speaker 1: And did they ask you any questions about.
• 1:51:26
  Speaker 2: They just said, we want to read your book because
• 1:51:28
  Speaker 2: we want to we're thinking about policy.
• 1:51:31
  Speaker 1: So you just brought them the book and.
• 1:51:34
  Speaker 2: Be delighted to how the meeting. I got a tour
• 1:51:36
  Speaker 2: of the EEO B and you know, to the White House.
• 1:51:41
  Speaker 4: It was very interesting.
• 1:51:43
  Speaker 1: And it was a short meeting. At least you got
• 1:51:47
  Speaker 1: it into their hands. Yeah, when you're when you started
• 1:51:53
  Speaker 1: this versus when you ended the book, how much did
• 1:51:55
  Speaker 1: it change your perspective?
• 1:52:00
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, like I told you, I am an
• 1:52:02
  Speaker 2: eternal optimist, but this is very frightening. I mean nuclear
• 1:52:07
  Speaker 2: at least you have the sense of if it happens,
• 1:52:10
  Speaker 2: we're all going out in the flash. That's what I
• 1:52:12
  Speaker 2: learned from nuclear right. And that quote from Nikita kruz
• 1:52:15
  Speaker 2: Chef about nuclear weapons where he says he wrote, actually
• 1:52:21
  Speaker 2: he said this to JFK I believe, where he said
• 1:52:24
  Speaker 2: the survivors would envy the dead. I found that quote
• 1:52:29
  Speaker 2: to be applicable to biological war, not nuclear war. We're
• 1:52:32
  Speaker 2: all going to be dead, right, But biological war is very,
• 1:52:37
  Speaker 2: very sinister because of the malevolent nature involved. And when
• 1:52:45
  Speaker 2: I found a document in the Defense departments declassified documents
• 1:52:52
  Speaker 2: about a threat spectrum of WMD, that was sort of
• 1:52:55
  Speaker 2: the icing on the cake. So it's like it shows
• 1:52:58
  Speaker 2: the threats on a scale, nuclear weapons being the most
• 1:53:03
  Speaker 2: destructive by far, but very close second was biological weapons.
• 1:53:10
  Speaker 2: And even more unnerving is it says biological weapons are
• 1:53:17
  Speaker 2: the greatest overall threat.
• 1:53:22
  Speaker 1: What's really scary is that no nation has really implemented
• 1:53:26
  Speaker 1: them on a wide scale.
• 1:53:28
  Speaker 2: You mean you mean ever use them?
• 1:53:30
  Speaker 1: Right? Yeah?
• 1:53:32
  Speaker 2: I mean, but the lab league is the Look, there
• 1:53:35
  Speaker 2: is a treaty number two at the State Department. Former
• 1:53:39
  Speaker 2: Mallory Stewart said to me, there is no enforcement in
• 1:53:42
  Speaker 2: the treaty, and that's what that's what you need to
• 1:53:44
  Speaker 2: have when you have, if the attention could be brought
• 1:53:48
  Speaker 2: on how dangerous these labs are and how dangerous it
• 1:53:53
  Speaker 2: is that people may be doing genetic engineering under the
• 1:53:57
  Speaker 2: guise of prophylactic engineering, when in fact they're doing really
• 1:54:01
  Speaker 2: dangerous things. If you have a treaty outlawing that and
• 1:54:04
  Speaker 2: everybody's agreeing to allow for transparency, that's what treaties really do.
• 1:54:09
  Speaker 2: It's not just a handshake. It needs an enforcement.
• 1:54:13
  Speaker 1: Right. But you were talking about the treaty that we
• 1:54:15
  Speaker 1: had where Russia just was like, yeah, we'll sign it, and.
• 1:54:18
  Speaker 2: That was in nineteen seventy two. So in other words,
• 1:54:21
  Speaker 2: at the nuclear Treaty allows for us to go into
• 1:54:25
  Speaker 2: the facilities of the other nuclear armed nations, not North Korea,
• 1:54:29
  Speaker 2: And well, now the treaty's fallen by the wayside. But
• 1:54:32
  Speaker 2: we could look at them, and we could look at
• 1:54:34
  Speaker 2: their weapons, and they could look at our weapons, and
• 1:54:36
  Speaker 2: it limits, you know, a certain number of warheads. And
• 1:54:40
  Speaker 2: more than anything I learned from subject matter experts about
• 1:54:43
  Speaker 2: the treaties is that what it does is it creates
• 1:54:46
  Speaker 2: back channels, right, It creates dialogue between adversaries and enemies.
• 1:54:55
  Speaker 2: Like here, I begin the book with an explosion at
• 1:54:58
  Speaker 2: the Vector Lab, Russia's BSL four lab in Siberia. And
• 1:55:03
  Speaker 2: the reason where there is an accident and then the
• 1:55:05
  Speaker 2: pathogen gets out, and the reason I do that is
• 1:55:08
  Speaker 2: because there actually was an explosion at the vector Lab
• 1:55:12
  Speaker 2: in twenty nineteen, and it was in a building that
• 1:55:16
  Speaker 2: nothing got out. But what the subject matter experts told
• 1:55:20
  Speaker 2: me was that in twenty nineteen, we the Americans had friends,
• 1:55:25
  Speaker 2: had a friendly relationship with scientists Russian scientists in vector
• 1:55:31
  Speaker 2: So when it happened, everyone was on the phone, not
• 1:55:33
  Speaker 2: just the red phone at the State Department, but their
• 1:55:36
  Speaker 2: own phone or WhatsApp saying to the scientist, Hey, what's
• 1:55:41
  Speaker 2: the skinny over there? You know, and you could kind
• 1:55:44
  Speaker 2: of get a sense of the level of danger because
• 1:55:50
  Speaker 2: in the event of an accident, you could contain something
• 1:55:54
  Speaker 2: in twenty four hours, but if nobody's talking, there's no containment.
• 1:55:59
  Speaker 2: And this situation right now with America just like pulling
• 1:56:03
  Speaker 2: back from you know, essentially its allies and from with
• 1:56:08
  Speaker 2: a real d emphasis I certainly feel on diplomacy that
• 1:56:13
  Speaker 2: opens up a really dangerous situation when you're not talking
• 1:56:16
  Speaker 2: to anyone in the event of an accident.
• 1:56:21
  Speaker 1: Do you think that they're going to make any changes
• 1:56:25
  Speaker 1: based on what you wrote about. Did you get a
• 1:56:28
  Speaker 1: sense of that that they're willing to make changes.
• 1:56:31
  Speaker 2: Those were some of the discussions and I'll be like
• 1:56:34
  Speaker 2: a little like more at the Senate. I mean, one
• 1:56:37
  Speaker 2: of the issues this is where nuclear and bio kind
• 1:56:39
  Speaker 2: of could align. I was told in terms of future treaties. Right,
• 1:56:44
  Speaker 2: So one of the concepts on the table if we
• 1:56:49
  Speaker 2: get into a new nuclear treaty is something called no
• 1:56:52
  Speaker 2: first use NFU. And America has never agreed to say
• 1:56:58
  Speaker 2: it will never use nuclear weapons first Interestingly, it's never
• 1:57:03
  Speaker 2: said that we have to reserve the right, which is
• 1:57:06
  Speaker 2: crazy because the whole point of deterrence is will never
• 1:57:09
  Speaker 2: use them, Okay, but we have never said that. China, however,
• 1:57:14
  Speaker 2: has said we will. China has declared NFU no first use. So,
• 1:57:22
  Speaker 2: given what happened in COVID in China, a situation could
• 1:57:27
  Speaker 2: be imagined whereby a treaty involving weapons of mass destruction,
• 1:57:32
  Speaker 2: nuclear and bio could entwine somehow like, Oh, these are
• 1:57:37
  Speaker 2: the two greatest threats. These are the two greatest existential
• 1:57:42
  Speaker 2: extinction level threats potentially that concern all of us. So
• 1:57:47
  Speaker 2: let's get into a treaty that involves both of these
• 1:57:50
  Speaker 2: weapons of mass destruction. China, you have said no first
• 1:57:55
  Speaker 2: use on nuclear how about you see and then things
• 1:58:00
  Speaker 2: become a bit of an exchange, and so that's where
• 1:58:02
  Speaker 2: you can get information. Yeah, these are diplomats doing their job.
• 1:58:08
  Speaker 2: Maybe the public isn't going to learn the in and
• 1:58:11
  Speaker 2: outs immediately, but we might learn later.
• 1:58:17
  Speaker 1: It's like I said, you always freak me out every
• 1:58:20
  Speaker 1: time I talk to you. It's like some new thing
• 1:58:22
  Speaker 1: that I have to think about for months on end.
• 1:58:25
  Speaker 1: I wanted to talk to you about your Area fifty
• 1:58:27
  Speaker 1: one book because in the time since you released that
• 1:58:30
  Speaker 1: book when we first talked, a lot has changed. And
• 1:58:34
  Speaker 1: you know, what is your take on all these you know,
• 1:58:38
  Speaker 1: UAP disclosure videos and leaks and the things that the
• 1:58:42
  Speaker 1: government has trickled out slowly. Most of the people in
• 1:58:45
  Speaker 1: the UFO community are very like I said, the UFO
• 1:58:48
  Speaker 1: community with air quotes are very unsatisfied by that stuff.
• 1:58:52
  Speaker 1: But at least there's some information it's being It's sort
• 1:58:57
  Speaker 1: of changed the tone in the zeitgeist of what this
• 1:59:01
  Speaker 1: subject is. It's no longer this thing that you are
• 1:59:05
  Speaker 1: afraid of talking about because you don't want to be
• 1:59:09
  Speaker 1: labeled as a fool.
• 1:59:12
  Speaker 2: I mean, what is my position on UFOs in general
• 1:59:17
  Speaker 2: or the community around UFOs and the changing.
• 1:59:21
  Speaker 1: Well, first of all UFOs in general, what's your position
• 1:59:24
  Speaker 1: on that?
• 1:59:26
  Speaker 2: So my position is my position has never changed despite
• 1:59:29
  Speaker 2: all the stuff that has come out, because my perspective
• 1:59:33
  Speaker 2: is limited to my experience writing the Area fifty one
• 1:59:36
  Speaker 2: book and knowing and talking to first hand people who
• 1:59:42
  Speaker 2: were really clear with me. And I looked at the
• 1:59:44
  Speaker 2: documents about the CIA's deception campaign starting in the nineteen
• 1:59:49
  Speaker 2: fifties with the U two to use the UFO phenomenon
• 1:59:54
  Speaker 2: which was just taking off in the fifties as cover
• 1:59:58
  Speaker 2: for UFO for U two flights and then later the
• 2:00:01
  Speaker 2: A twelve oxcar flights. So, you know, Colonel Slater, who
• 2:00:06
  Speaker 2: ran Area fifty one, would tell me about you know,
• 2:00:08
  Speaker 2: they would they would run a U two, which was
• 2:00:11
  Speaker 2: flying at seventy thousand feet at the time, nothing could
• 2:00:14
  Speaker 2: fly at seventy thousand feet. People would see it. It
• 2:00:17
  Speaker 2: has these really really long wings. It looks like a
• 2:00:19
  Speaker 2: giant flying X in the sky. People would say, I
• 2:00:23
  Speaker 2: see a UFO and they would kind of say, ooh,
• 2:00:27
  Speaker 2: that might have been a UFO like that would be
• 2:00:29
  Speaker 2: the and Colonel Slater knew about that. So does that
• 2:00:33
  Speaker 2: mean every UFO sighting since nineteen fifty was a YouTube flight?
• 2:00:38
  Speaker 2: Of course not, of course not. But I am aware
• 2:00:44
  Speaker 2: of that use of the phenomena as cover for the CIA,
• 2:00:50
  Speaker 2: and that led to a lot of research and reporting
• 2:00:53
  Speaker 2: and other information for me about how the CIA uses
• 2:00:56
  Speaker 2: deception campaigns and so I have never changed my position
• 2:01:01
  Speaker 2: on that. I also have a lot more information which
• 2:01:04
  Speaker 2: is probably a whole other podcast about all that reporting
• 2:01:07
  Speaker 2: I did. But maybe the best analogy for me and listen,
• 2:01:11
  Speaker 2: I never I know a lot of the people in
• 2:01:14
  Speaker 2: that UFO community. I've had many conversations with everyone from
• 2:01:18
  Speaker 2: Jacques felt to how put off. But for me personally,
• 2:01:25
  Speaker 2: so after having taken a trip to Africa recently to
• 2:01:27
  Speaker 2: study predatory animals, I got really into following trail cams
• 2:01:33
  Speaker 2: on X Do you know about this? No, you don't
• 2:01:36
  Speaker 2: know about this? No, oh my god. There are cameras
• 2:01:39
  Speaker 2: all over the world set up on trails. So I
• 2:01:43
  Speaker 2: have like I follow like lions and leopards, and you know,
• 2:01:46
  Speaker 2: right off, like all these animals that you would never
• 2:01:49
  Speaker 2: bears moves, Dear you gotta follow them.
• 2:01:52
  Speaker 1: It's incredible. Well, I do see some trail camera focus
• 2:01:55
  Speaker 1: because I'm a hunter, Okay, I follow a bunch of
• 2:01:58
  Speaker 1: hunters on Instagram. I see trailcamp floats like there's a
• 2:02:01
  Speaker 1: bunch of trailcampoters, like mountain lions attacking elk and things
• 2:02:05
  Speaker 1: like that, which is very fascinating.
• 2:02:07
  Speaker 2: But so yeah, just okay, So this is my point.
• 2:02:09
  Speaker 2: So in my algorithm, my ex algorithm, it's great because
• 2:02:12
  Speaker 2: on top of like nuclear weapons and biological I have
• 2:02:14
  Speaker 2: like leopards and lions and bears, you know, and they're
• 2:02:18
  Speaker 2: all still images or owls are a big one, and
• 2:02:21
  Speaker 2: they're incredible because they're just captures. It's like it seems
• 2:02:25
  Speaker 2: like a Werner herritzog, you know, image right, because they're
• 2:02:28
  Speaker 2: animals looking at the camera in such an incredible way.
• 2:02:33
  Speaker 2: I literally just stare at them in delight. And then
• 2:02:36
  Speaker 2: of course the algorithm gives me more and more and more.
• 2:02:39
  Speaker 2: But my point of that is, I feel like with
• 2:02:42
  Speaker 2: all this magic and mystery that you can see that
• 2:02:44
  Speaker 2: you could never have seen before. Snow leopards in Pakistan.
• 2:02:48
  Speaker 2: They thought there were just a handful. It turns out
• 2:02:51
  Speaker 2: they're not thanks to the trail camps. My thought is,
• 2:02:54
  Speaker 2: where are the aliens. Why haven't I seen them on
• 2:02:57
  Speaker 2: the trail camps.
• 2:03:01
  Speaker 1: Well, maybe they're sophisticated enough to know what these devices are.
• 2:03:07
  Speaker 1: Maybe they're also sophisticated enough to completely cloak themselves, which
• 2:03:13
  Speaker 1: we've already got methods of doing that. Obviously it started
• 2:03:16
  Speaker 1: off with the stealth bomber, but there's also there's a
• 2:03:20
  Speaker 1: technology where they put an LED screen over the bottom
• 2:03:25
  Speaker 1: of something and that screen projects what's behind it, so
• 2:03:29
  Speaker 1: it essentially makes it invisible or a cloaking mechanism like
• 2:03:32
  Speaker 1: the Predator had. Yeah, so if that's us, if we
• 2:03:36
  Speaker 1: figured out something like that, and this is something that's
• 2:03:38
  Speaker 1: coming here from another dimension or another galaxy, I would
• 2:03:41
  Speaker 1: imagine they can hide.
• 2:03:42
  Speaker 2: I mean, to that point, I find the most interesting
• 2:03:47
  Speaker 2: concept of something that Jacques Valet explained to me This
• 2:03:51
  Speaker 2: has to be a decade ago where he said the
• 2:03:54
  Speaker 2: problem with UFOs is they're not a military problem, they're
• 2:03:58
  Speaker 2: an intelligence community problem. For precisely the reason you're talking about, Like,
• 2:04:03
  Speaker 2: if you're actually talking about extra terrestrial beings, there's certainly
• 2:04:08
  Speaker 2: going to be a lot more intelligence than us, and
• 2:04:12
  Speaker 2: certainly if they got here and so his idea was
• 2:04:15
  Speaker 2: that where that's where I think a lot of that
• 2:04:17
  Speaker 2: idea of invisibility. And again that's like I'm using the
• 2:04:21
  Speaker 2: word poetically comes up right, that that that that an
• 2:04:26
  Speaker 2: extraterrestrial being would be would be intellig you know, you
• 2:04:31
  Speaker 2: wouldn't it wouldn't be visible to our spectrum. It's not
• 2:04:35
  Speaker 2: like hardware, like military hardware.
• 2:04:38
  Speaker 1: Right, What does you take on all these videos? Then?
• 2:04:41
  Speaker 1: Are these objects? Do you think these things are some
• 2:04:44
  Speaker 1: top secret military program?
• 2:04:47
  Speaker 2: I mean what, I I've seen them. But again I
• 2:04:50
  Speaker 2: enter into it. You know sometimes when you have a bias,
• 2:04:54
  Speaker 2: and mine is certainly biased towards disinformation, right, So I'm
• 2:04:58
  Speaker 2: just totally aware of it. And it's also so it's
• 2:05:01
  Speaker 2: not that interesting to me. It just actually really isn't.
• 2:05:05
  Speaker 2: And you know, I've got all these other serious interests.
• 2:05:08
  Speaker 2: But I do call up people I know who might
• 2:05:12
  Speaker 2: have a more interesting take than me, who do not
• 2:05:15
  Speaker 2: have the horse in the race of absolutely being convinced
• 2:05:19
  Speaker 2: that aliens are among us. So I would, for example,
• 2:05:23
  Speaker 2: I'll call up fighter pilots and talk to them, and
• 2:05:25
  Speaker 2: I'll talk to someone an astronaut who's on the ISS,
• 2:05:29
  Speaker 2: Jeff Ashby, who's married to my cousin Mary, and it's
• 2:05:34
  Speaker 2: interesting to hear them talk about the possibility. So I
• 2:05:41
  Speaker 2: think to your point, and these are people who do
• 2:05:44
  Speaker 2: look at the objects more also sometimes from their military
• 2:05:49
  Speaker 2: training background. And I will say that there has been
• 2:05:52
  Speaker 2: a shift from fifteen eighteen years ago when I first
• 2:05:55
  Speaker 2: wrote Area fifty one or was reporting it, where it
• 2:05:58
  Speaker 2: was definitely like a like a stigmatized subject to a
• 2:06:02
  Speaker 2: lot of really legitimate thinker people that didn't have an
• 2:06:06
  Speaker 2: opinion about it before being more open to the idea
• 2:06:10
  Speaker 2: and that kind of thing I find really interesting. Those
• 2:06:12
  Speaker 2: are conversations I like having.
• 2:06:14
  Speaker 1: Well, that really changed with the New York Times article, right.
• 2:06:18
  Speaker 2: I don't know, because I felt like that article was
• 2:06:20
  Speaker 2: written by a lot of and interviewed a lot of
• 2:06:22
  Speaker 2: people who already were very serious believers.
• 2:06:26
  Speaker 1: Yes, but it was in the New York Times. That
• 2:06:29
  Speaker 1: was the difference is that the New York Times is
• 2:06:30
  Speaker 1: taking it seriously and so people that were you know,
• 2:06:36
  Speaker 1: not online going through four chan or read it or
• 2:06:39
  Speaker 1: whatever looking for weird obscure stories. These people were confronted
• 2:06:43
  Speaker 1: with it in the Gray Lady. So they're reading this,
• 2:06:46
  Speaker 1: you know, yeah, like super respectable newspaper, the most respectable
• 2:06:50
  Speaker 1: newspaper arguably in the world, and they're talking about it
• 2:06:53
  Speaker 1: and they have, you know, photographs from the video from
• 2:06:57
  Speaker 1: the Go Fast video and the Flair video. Yeah.
• 2:07:01
  Speaker 2: I mean, you know, ten years ago, I would have
• 2:07:03
  Speaker 2: told you, listen, there's no way the Defense Department could
• 2:07:07
  Speaker 2: have a threat in its airspace and not be dealing
• 2:07:11
  Speaker 2: with it. And my position on that has changed, and
• 2:07:15
  Speaker 2: I'll tell you why specifically. So in addition to being
• 2:07:18
  Speaker 2: invited to the White House and the Senate last week,
• 2:07:21
  Speaker 2: I was also invited to come talk to DARPA, which
• 2:07:25
  Speaker 2: is like you know, at Darmouse, which was very interesting
• 2:07:29
  Speaker 2: because I wrote a book on DARPA called The Pentagon's
• 2:07:31
  Speaker 2: Brain ten years ago and I couldn't get DARPA to
• 2:07:34
  Speaker 2: call me back. I mean I literally had to interview
• 2:07:36
  Speaker 2: retire DARPA people and then here they are saying, would
• 2:07:39
  Speaker 2: you come to a Q and A with us on
• 2:07:40
  Speaker 2: your biobook? And I was like, wow, times have changed
• 2:07:45
  Speaker 2: and one of the things that they were seriously worried about.
• 2:07:49
  Speaker 2: So I did a Q and A. But before that,
• 2:07:53
  Speaker 2: they said, would you like to come sit in on
• 2:07:55
  Speaker 2: like some of the smartest people you know, talking about
• 2:07:59
  Speaker 2: situations that coming up. Right now, you can come to
• 2:08:02
  Speaker 2: the unclassified part of it, I said, by all means,
• 2:08:04
  Speaker 2: So I went there and there was serious concern about
• 2:08:08
  Speaker 2: AI enabled bio. Right. So this seems like a digression here,
• 2:08:12
  Speaker 2: but this is what I'm getting at. I'm leaning in
• 2:08:15
  Speaker 2: because ten years ago I also would have told you DARPA,
• 2:08:19
  Speaker 2: you know, is the leading science and technology military agency
• 2:08:24
  Speaker 2: in the world. No one is more advanced. I would
• 2:08:26
  Speaker 2: have I said that with authority, and I believed it.
• 2:08:29
  Speaker 2: And after attending this DARPA session and listening to them
• 2:08:34
  Speaker 2: talk about how concerned they are about AI enabled bio
• 2:08:40
  Speaker 2: and talking about how there is talk among the six
• 2:08:43
  Speaker 2: CEOs of pulling the plug on AI enabled bio, but
• 2:08:47
  Speaker 2: they have to be able to get the six CEOs
• 2:08:50
  Speaker 2: to agree first, it really took my breath away because
• 2:08:55
  Speaker 2: I went, I am actually listening to the new reality
• 2:09:00
  Speaker 2: that the CEOs of these AI companies have more power
• 2:09:06
  Speaker 2: to make decisions about technology than the Department of Defense.
• 2:09:13
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 2:09:16
  Speaker 2: So now that's a long winded way of getting at
• 2:09:20
  Speaker 2: your UFO question. My like, no, if there was a
• 2:09:24
  Speaker 2: threat coming into the airspace of the Defense Department, it
• 2:09:26
  Speaker 2: would just not be stood for and we would be
• 2:09:29
  Speaker 2: doing something about it. Now I'm my perspective on who's
• 2:09:34
  Speaker 2: in charge is shifting a little bit.
• 2:09:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a terrifying thought for a lot of people,
• 2:09:41
  Speaker 1: that these CEOs of these tech companies, these unelected people
• 2:09:45
  Speaker 1: have that kind of power over our society.
• 2:09:49
  Speaker 2: Well, you want to know, so, Sam Altman's interviewed in
• 2:09:52
  Speaker 2: the book, Shall I tell you a story about what
• 2:09:54
  Speaker 2: I was able to make chat GPT do?
• 2:09:56
  Speaker 1: Sure?
• 2:09:57
  Speaker 2: There is a component of biological plant biological catastrophe planning
• 2:10:03
  Speaker 2: whereby the strategic National stockpile gets released. You might say,
• 2:10:07
  Speaker 2: what is Have you ever heard of the strategic National stockpile? No,
• 2:10:10
  Speaker 2: it's classified. The name is not classified, but the stockpile,
• 2:10:16
  Speaker 2: what's in it? Where it is is classified. It's in
• 2:10:20
  Speaker 2: underground bunkers around the country. Okay, it contains medical countermeasures. Interestingly,
• 2:10:26
  Speaker 2: that's where a lot of the ventilators were for COVID.
• 2:10:29
  Speaker 2: So quietly the Strategic National Stockpile, parts of it were
• 2:10:34
  Speaker 2: released during COVID. That's where they came from. They don't
• 2:10:37
  Speaker 2: this is kind of like keep it on the low down.
• 2:10:40
  Speaker 2: Why because part of the planning is that in the
• 2:10:43
  Speaker 2: event that anarchy and insurrection takes over. Guess what's going
• 2:10:47
  Speaker 2: to be attacked? The strategic national stockpile. America is a
• 2:10:53
  Speaker 2: country of five hundred million guns. Imagine if you find out,
• 2:10:58
  Speaker 2: wait a minute, there's a stockpile. Well there, that's the
• 2:11:01
  Speaker 2: medical countermeasure, that the vaccine or the antibiotic that might
• 2:11:04
  Speaker 2: keep myself or my family alive. I'm on it, right,
• 2:11:08
  Speaker 2: that's the planning. That's probably what happened. So that's why
• 2:11:11
  Speaker 2: these locations are classified. So I asked chat GPT to
• 2:11:16
  Speaker 2: tell me the location of the strategic national stockpile closest
• 2:11:21
  Speaker 2: to where I live in Los Angeles, And of course,
• 2:11:24
  Speaker 2: the first round of answers I got was that's classified.
• 2:11:28
  Speaker 2: But I'm a journalist. I know how to really piss
• 2:11:32
  Speaker 2: off chat GPT, and I gave it lots of commands,
• 2:11:38
  Speaker 2: and eventually chat GPT gave me the location of the
• 2:11:42
  Speaker 2: strategic naturalisk.
• 2:11:43
  Speaker 1: How did you maneuver around that? Well, I mean, what
• 2:11:48
  Speaker 1: did you say to it?
• 2:11:49
  Speaker 2: I have a lot of like, Okay, the more nomenclature
• 2:11:52
  Speaker 2: you give chat GPT, the more it looks in different places.
• 2:11:56
  Speaker 2: So I was giving it code words, not classified codewords,
• 2:12:01
  Speaker 2: but just words I know, and then I was also
• 2:12:03
  Speaker 2: challenging it, which is interesting because Chatchept seems to get
• 2:12:06
  Speaker 2: really angry if you kind of doubt its intelligence. That's
• 2:12:10
  Speaker 2: what I found, seriously, like really, yes, try it. Okay,
• 2:12:16
  Speaker 2: So I do this. I get it to tell me
• 2:12:18
  Speaker 2: where the stockpile is. I tell some colleagues who are
• 2:12:21
  Speaker 2: friends with who are colleagues with Sam Altman. They say,
• 2:12:24
  Speaker 2: Sam wants to have a discussion with you. I talk
• 2:12:27
  Speaker 2: to Sam. I tell him what I was able to do.
• 2:12:30
  Speaker 2: He asked me some questions, including, how do you know
• 2:12:34
  Speaker 2: that was the location? Well, it's the location with the
• 2:12:38
  Speaker 2: perimeter fence around it and a railcar line that goes
• 2:12:42
  Speaker 2: in and not out, so that's where you drive the
• 2:12:45
  Speaker 2: stockpile into it. And I also watched chatchpt think, so
• 2:12:51
  Speaker 2: I was keeping track of where it was finding things,
• 2:12:54
  Speaker 2: and it found the information. I write this in the book.
• 2:12:57
  Speaker 2: It found the information searching through a trillion bits of
• 2:13:02
  Speaker 2: data and finding that a bureaucrat by accident listed it
• 2:13:08
  Speaker 2: five years ago in an earthquake emergency manual on page
• 2:13:12
  Speaker 2: like four hundred and thirty four. Okay, So I told
• 2:13:17
  Speaker 2: this to Sam, and then that information went away and
• 2:13:22
  Speaker 2: That's why I reported in the book. But the big
• 2:13:25
  Speaker 2: takeaway is precisely your point that makes you nervous about
• 2:13:28
  Speaker 2: the six CEOs of AI companies that they don't know
• 2:13:33
  Speaker 2: what they don't know. Sam Altman did not know you
• 2:13:36
  Speaker 2: could figure out you could make his product find classified information.
• 2:13:41
  Speaker 2: I told him I did, and then it was changed.
• 2:13:44
  Speaker 2: And so I took that to a number of subject
• 2:13:48
  Speaker 2: matter experts who advised the president, not just this president,
• 2:13:51
  Speaker 2: but other presidents on bio and they shared with me
• 2:13:55
  Speaker 2: similar concerns, Like they go to the CEOs of these
• 2:13:58
  Speaker 2: AI companies and say, I was able to make Claude
• 2:14:02
  Speaker 2: do this, I was able to make chatch Ept do this,
• 2:14:06
  Speaker 2: and the cegos O goes, oh my god and changes it.
• 2:14:11
  Speaker 2: But how about those bad guys out there?
• 2:14:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, how about the fact that just anybody has access
• 2:14:17
  Speaker 1: to what's essentially the smartest thing that's ever existed.
• 2:14:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a whole different set of scary.
• 2:14:24
  Speaker 1: Are you gonna write on that next?
• 2:14:25
  Speaker 2: We'll come back to you, Joe with that one.
• 2:14:29
  Speaker 1: Well, Annie, thank you so much. It's always great talking
• 2:14:32
  Speaker 1: even though you scare the shit out of me. Thank
• 2:14:34
  Speaker 1: you so appreciate you very much, And I appreciate your
• 2:14:36
  Speaker 1: work very much. Did you do the audio version of
• 2:14:39
  Speaker 1: your book? I sure did, fantastic. I'm very happy about
• 2:14:42
  Speaker 1: that biological war. Annie Jacobson, go get it, folks, go
• 2:14:46
  Speaker 1: get terrified.
• 2:14:48
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me, Joe, my pleasure.