Latest / Rosters to Rings Podcast / Giannis, Tanking and Playoff Pressure with Tommy Sheppard

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Giannis, Tanking and Playoff Pressure with Tommy Sheppard · Rosters to Rings Podcast

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to Rosters to Rings I am your host,
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: fad Levine. I am honored to be joined once again
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: by my dear friend, Tommy Shepherd. Tommy brings close to
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: three decades of leadership experience in the NBA, working for
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: the Denver Nuggets and the Washington Wizards. In addition to
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: having incredible insights into the NBA, Tommy is one of
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: the most universally respected people in all of sports for
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: his integrity, leadership, and mentorship that he has generously and
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: so freely offered throughout his career. Tommy, it's absolutely wonderful
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: to have you back on Rosters to rings Man.
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: this time of year, the NBA playoffs, they just they
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: rebind everybody. Why how much he loved the NBA. It
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: was a bit of a slog that lot from March
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: on in the NBA. Now it's a payoff time. It's
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: going to be some great playoffs. Can't wait to talk
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: about them.
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: Well, who better to have on for our NBA Playoff primer.
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: We've got so much to get to in this episode,
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: We're going to break down some of those matchups. We're
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: going to talk a little bit about planning for the
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: playoffs in our two careers in Major League Baseball in
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: the NBA. But where I think we should start the
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: conversation is just what is going on with the Milwaukee Bucks.
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: There's been so much publicly discussed for a player who,
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: by my account seems to be one of the most
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: respected but also quiet players throughout his career, Giannis has
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: become very vocal. Can you give the listeners a little
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: background of what is his personality like and how surprised
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: are you that he has become vocal throughout the course
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: of the season.
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: Gianni is one of the very best players in the NBA.
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: He's an MVP level player. He's won the MVP, He's
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: won a championship. He's done everything you can do out
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: on the court. He is a champion, a wonderful human being, inspirational,
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: unbelievable story. And I think the Bucks have done everything
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: they can, year in year out to try to do
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: the very best they can to put him in position
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: to win championships. You know, and it gets expensive and
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: you start having move players around. They made a huge
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: deal two years ago to get Dame Lillard to try
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: to satisfy it. This is what you need next to you.
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: And they tried to clean the decks up a little
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: bit and that just didn't work out, and Dame was
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: hurt and that's gone, and so you lose guys like
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: Drew Holliday, who is complete champion prep pedigree. That's been
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: I don't think they've ever recovered truly from losing Drew,
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: but you know, they got through three coaches in the
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: last three years, and that's really really hard on a player.
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: Injuries are weighing down on your honest and that I
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: really believe. You know, the honest that's being portrayed in
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: the media is not necessarily who he is. I can't
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: claim to know him intimately, but I would say injuries
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: suck and they really start to mess with people's, uh,
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: your day to day everything inside your head. You know,
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: people are working feverishly to get his knee right, but
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: are you really checking between the years, because that's really
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: what I think is going on with him. This right
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: now is ugly can't recover. I don't believe. I wish
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: they could have had clarity from the jump because it
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: caused confusion.
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: Now, Tommy, in your career, did you ever encounter something
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: like this, and if you had been in the seat,
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: it's easy to say with hindsight, right, And maybe the
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: answer is what you've already given, which is they did
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: everything they could to try to put that franchise in
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: the best position. They won a championship, so I think
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: we got to give him credit. They did win a
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: championship with the Honest, But maybe they're at the end
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: of the line, or were there things that they could
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: have done along the way to potentially have prevented this ending,
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: which appears to be an unpleasant divorce of a star
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: player in a market where he has been singularly loyal
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: and dedicated to throughout his career.
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: I probably have gone through some of this stuff, but
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: we always kept it in house and very tight, and
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: then when the trade was made, it was, oh my god,
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: they just traded this player. I can only speculate from
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: the outside looking in that they had some great conversations
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: prior to this season. The one that really sticks out
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: to me there was a conversation that was brought to
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: Yannis that one of their owners that had really reflected
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: on a great conversation he had had with the Honest
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: this summer and when Yanna said, I I don't remember
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: that conversation. That's when I said, Okay, that's not a
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: red flag, that's five red flags jumping up and down.
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: And that's that's really where it starts to me. And
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: everything since then. I think that probably was a sign
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: of a broken trust somewhere. And boy, once you break
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: trust with a player and likewise with the team, it's
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: really almost irreparable.
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: You know, there's one view of this that could say, hey,
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: they did it all right, which is they they did
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: win a championship, They did push chips in both before
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: that championship and after that championship. The undeniably tried to
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: do whatever they could to maximize this window with the
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: honest maybe it's just running its course at this time,
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: we're starting to see some of those dominoes fall. Tommy Is.
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: Today we heard that Doc Rivers was relieved of his duties.
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: When do you think that decision was made into you?
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: I think this is the last time I know to
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: fall in Milwaukee.
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: You know, I think Doc kind of knew maybe around
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: trade deadline when they weren't able to do anything, and
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: that Giannis was not healthy coming down the backstretch. Of
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: the season to be really hard to make the playoffs,
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: and I think he was brought in to navigate the
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: playoffs for them. He's one of the best coaches in history.
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: So sometimes you're the right coach at the wrong time.
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: Sometimes it's just not the best fit. You know that
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: they're on there. As we mentioned that they'll be going
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: on their fourth coach this summer and in a very
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: short time, so there was a lot of just a
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: lot of change in a very short time, and Doc
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: inherited all that. So I give him much credit because
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: he's always kept his character and Doc is somebody that
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: is a great caretaker of the game. Players respect him.
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: But that that team was not really built by the
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: end of the season, with all the injuries, all the
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: different things that happened, they weren't built to maybe get
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: to the play in at best. So I think he
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: probably knew something after trade deadline that this person going
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: to be for him.
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: You know, Tommy, you just said something kind of subtly,
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: but I think it's really profound, which is the fact
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: that it didn't work for Doc here doesn't mean that
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: he wasn't a great coach. There's a lot of evidence
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: that says he absolutely is a great coach, and we
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: could dive into that in a minute, but maybe just
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: that he wasn't the right guy for the situation that
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: was presented at that time. And that's where I think
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: these careers in sports can get derailed. When you become
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: so singularly focused on that next run in the ladder,
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: the chance to be a general manager, the chance to
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: be a head coach, and you don't evaluate the situation
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: that you're inheriting. Not only these hands were meant to
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: be won, and I think sometimes we think we're going
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: to be the saviors. I never viewed it that way.
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: I always felt I wanted to be put into the
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: best position for me to succeed, and I didn't have
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: any delusions that that was any situation. I knew I
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: needed to be set up for success. I'm up for
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: a challenge, But I think sometimes we misconstrue this notion
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: that we can handle any challenge. There are some challenges
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: we're better suited to excel it.
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: No question. Your name is that not Jesus right. There's
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: some big challenges in sports, and one of them is
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: when you inherit a team where the superstar player is
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: not happy and he's not running at a superstar level.
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: But in the meantime, they've moved all their other chips
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: off the table. So they were really kind of not
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: a very strong team from the get go, and I
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: think that those kinds of challenges are not for the
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: week at heart. And I think Doc really he did
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: everything he could to pour himself into that team, but
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: when you look at the parts, it was going to
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: be really really difficult for them to, like I said,
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: get out of the play.
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: In and Tommy. Just so we give Doc his due propers,
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: let's just give the listeners some of the highlights of
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: his career. Really almost close to a Hall of Fame
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: playing career, but he is a Hall of Famer now.
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: He was elected into the Hall of Fame this year, ironically,
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: the same year he loses his job in Milwaukee. But
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: he's twenty seven years at the helm of being a
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: head coach of it of NBA franchises. He wins a
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: championship in two thousand and eight with the Boston CELTICSIE
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: overall wins fifty eight percent of his games when he's
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: head coaching, which is pretty remarkable. As we dive into
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: our next topic, which will be tanking. It's remarkable that
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: he was almost affiliated with none of that throughout his career,
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: and he ends his career if he doesn't coach another game.
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: He sets sixth all time on the most wins by
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: head coaches in the NBA. A truly truly remarkable career,
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: both as a player and as a head coach, and
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: by all likelihood, he's probably not done yet.
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree. I think it would be fascinating to
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: see if he gets back to the sideline or if
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: he brings his talents back to the front office. I could.
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: I love him on TV. I always thought he was
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: a great analyst there. So he's not going to be
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: lonely very long. I know he wants to see his grandkids.
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: He'll take some time and do that. But the two
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: quickest things I could say about Doc that you know
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: the funniest guy. And every year you'll ask it. There'll
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: be a reporter asking Doc a question about an injury,
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: and he goes, you know, that's just my nickname, right,
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: I'm not a doctor. And I always laugh when he
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: says that, And then you know, Doc, he got his
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: nickname from Rick Majeris. He was wearing a Julius serving
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: jersey at a basketball camp when he was a kid,
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: and it stuck. And I just think great nicknames are
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: disappearing from us. Doc is one of the great nickname
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: great guys. I don't know what else is going to
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: happen in Milwaukee. I can't see a future right now
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: without knowing how free agency looks for them. The draft
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: if you can trade some pieces or something, but you know,
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: you never discount I think a lot of where Jannis
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: is positioning this for himself is to have an exit
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: out off ramp. But what if he signs a big extension.
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: What if the Bucks say will give you the full extension?
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: That changes the conversation. And you know there's there's three
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: of the compo's on the Bucks, So his decision affects
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: some other people in the house, so it'll be interesting.
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: I don't think he just walks away.
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: And we will find out whether he's signs it or
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: if they offer that extension. If he's signs that extension,
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: both those things happened before the draft. I would imagine
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: if he does not sign that extension or if they
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: don't offer it to it will be strong indication that
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: a trade is forthcoming, and if it trades forthcoming, I've
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: got to believe Tommy, that trade's going to take place
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: before the draft. It's such a rich draft this upcoming season.
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: But surely if the Bucks are trading him, they're rebuilding,
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: they're going to want draft capital back in return.
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: No, absolutely, anything is possible. But I agree with everything
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: you just said.
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: That's why we like having you on. So Tommy, I
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: just want to shift our attention to one other thing.
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: And this is kind of this is playoff adjacent topic,
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: but it's really dominated the NBA this season unfortunately, and
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: that's the topic of tanking. Commissioner Silver is very focused
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: on this. I think there's going to be some real
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: changes made this offseason. But as we sit today, what
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: do you make of tanking and how much it's dominating
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: the conversation around the NBA unfortunately.
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: Well, it's evident when you're watching games really starting in November,
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: where some teams just come out of the gate so
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: incredibly slow. And I'm not going to say in that,
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: but they're just they're not in the same atmosphere as
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: the teams that they're playing. And now what we've kind
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: of evolved in there's a journalist named Tom Aberstrow who
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: kind of developed he showed, he illustrated there's an A
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: league in a B league. Now you know there's basically
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: ten teams a third of the league tapping out, just
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: not trying to win games, and that that really does
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: not capture the whole picture, you know, because there's so
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: many careers that are at stake and involved in this.
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: But where tanking is right now is so blatant. You
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: know that Adam had to Adam Silver had to put
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: out a couple of fines to kind of make a
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: make a statement to the general public. I think a
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: lot of the stuff that was concerning about these games
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: that down the stretch is it's not just the tanking piece,
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: but it is gambling. That there's some gambling concerns that
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: come with when you can take a player all the
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: way to the third quarter, fourth quarter, then rip them
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: off the floor and you're you know, you're up ten,
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: all of a sudden, you're down five. And if you
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: knew the lineup rotations, and somebody found out about the
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: lineup rotations and here's our script for the night's game,
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: that's a big, big problem. I'm sure they were gambling.
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: A lot of the gambling people were uh that the
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: NBA use as resources to avoid any problems. I'm sure
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: they were kind of point tapped on the shoulders that
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: listen that this is big problems if there's teams that
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: are intentionally taking players off the court late in games.
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: Because the line changes by the minute in a game,
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: people can bet throughout the game on their phones. So
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: I think that's part of it where I think it
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: got real. There was a call with Adam and the
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: GMS and they were talking about tanking things to discuss
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: a board of governors at the Combine. And you know
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: when they were talking about the bottom three teams, they
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: let's just flatten the odds even more. Let's take that
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: out to really push teams to not just intentionally throw games.
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: You know, there's games in March and April. Somebody had
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: to pay for a ticket to go to a game
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: to watch someone lose by forty eight. Someone had to watch.
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: You know, I don't know, I would think that if
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: if it's proven that you're tanking, you should probably refund
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: your season ticket holders. Right, that's a lot of money
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: to ask people to go. But you know, we mentioned
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: fans that they can live with it if it says said, listen,
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: we got to rebuild, we got to get a top player.
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: The only way we can do is if we get
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: to that top pick. Well, that's a sound enough strategy
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: if it's not the only place that you reside for
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: the next seventeen eighteen years, Right, you don't want to
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: be in the lottery that long, and Gostart, the chances
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: of getting the number one pick are actually pretty slim
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: when you're the worst team. It's only happened six times
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: since the lottery was instated, so be careful, you know.
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: And we look as far as even the last two
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: years that people came from ten to eleven and got
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: the number one pick. So that's not the big reward
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: that you think is at the end of the season
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: we tanked, we lost all these games, we get the
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: number one pick. Oh nope, we didn't get the number one.
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: We failed to three and we failed the five. Like
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: that's that would be really tough for people to Stumach.
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: Who says the days of the Frozen envelopes or in
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: the interview mirror. A lot of conspiracy theories around how
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: these lotteries come to pass It's the same thing in
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: Major League Baseball, Timmy, where we've had a lottery implemented,
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: and I don't know that ever the number the team
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: with the highest odds has actually won it just yet,
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: But I think that's great for the sport. That is
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: some disincentive towards tanking. But you said it earlier. We
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: make it sound like tanking is this nefarious activity. It's
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: actually strategically sound. The way these rules work, and a
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: lot of our sports now, the best thing to do
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: is to win a championship, undeniably. The second best thing
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: to do is be really competitive. But the third best
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: thing to do is to pick high in the draft.
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: When you're picking tenth to fifteenth and not having a
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: presence in the playoffs, you're just not helping your team
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: today or tomorrow. So I think Commissioner Silver, who to
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: be one of the most active, forward thinking, progressive commissioners
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: in all of sports, I'm sure he's going to try
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: to address this, Tommy. I'm going to run by a
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: few things that we've heard out there as possible changes.
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: You tell me if any of them sound particularly appealing
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: to you from an executive's chair. They've talked about you
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: mentioned it maybe kind of flattening out right now, the
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: top three teams or the bottom three teams, they should say,
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: have the same odds. They've talked about leveling that out
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: to the ten teams that don't make the playoffs, so
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: all ten teams have the same odds. They've talked about
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: going with the WNBA method, which is combining your wins
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: over a two year period, so it's not just one year,
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: it's over two years. And I think the thought process
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: there is tanking over two years is pretty excruciating. One year,
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: somehow fans do stand by you, but two years maybe
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: a little bit tougher, and then giving the commissioner more
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: latitude to levy punishments in the form of stripping draft
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: picks or moving draft picks unilaterally, or fines that are
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: even more significant than what he's doing. Now, do any
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: of those jump out to you as particularly plausible or
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: in your mind ways that will really curb tanking moving forward.
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: I think that maybe the flattening would help a little bit.
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: What scares the hell out of the league goes without saying,
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: is when a guy like Hal Burton gets hurt, or
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: years ago, when David got hurt, so now you got
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: a team that was just in the finals that gets
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: into the lottery, scoops up a fantastic player, and they're
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: up and running the next year. That's not really what
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: the lottery is supposed to help, right, But that's how
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: David got Tim as a running part of Tim Duncan
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: with the Spurs. You know, that's really kind of If
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: you look at what Indiana could possibly end up with
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: the number one pick, holy cow. You know that team
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: was in the finals in Game seven a year ago,
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: so that would be a tremendous addition to their team.
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: And I don't think any of these things really cover that.
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: What happens when a team who is extremely competitive, considered
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: what we would say a top one tier team in
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: the NBA has an injury. What do we do when
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: they're in the lottery. We can't really punish them. You know,
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: if we added their two years together, somebody might be
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: you know, seventy two wins. Yeah, that's not They're probably
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: going to be the spirit there. I think that flattening
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: the odds. But I think the best idea is coming.
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: I don't think it's been discussed yet. I think there'll
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: be more and more discussion. I could ask you with
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: your baseball intellect on this, but certainly as a bury entail,
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: as an executive, what would you want to see happen?
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: Well, Tommyan, this is a variation of the flattening that
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: you talked about. But at the general managers meetings, and
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: this must have been five seasons ago, Doug Melvin, a
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: longtime general manager, actually made this recommendation, which their flaws
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: to it, but let me just lay it out effectively.
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: It is, you get to the trading deadline in Major
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: League Baseball, usually it's July thirty first or thereabouts, and
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: then you say, from that day to the end of
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: the season, the team that wins the most games, so
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: you identified the bottom ten teams at that point in
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: the schedule. The team that wins the most games gets
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: the first pick, the team that wins the second most
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: games gets the second pick, and so on. What that
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: allows for is for teams probably to game the system
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: a little bit. You could keep guys on the il
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: a little bit longer so that you get in that
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: bottom ten. So there's always going to be ways to
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: game the system. To me, the biggest consequence that's negative
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: associated with that is I think it would really in
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: a sport baseball, where the trading deadline is so important,
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: hope springs eternal you can add to your team, and
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: that point, I think it would really disincent those selling
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: teams from selling their better players because they would prefer
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: to hold them to try to get higher picks in
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: the draft. So I think it would really mute the
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: impact that the trade deadline has.
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: But I do think it.
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: Would help the integrity of nobody's tanking anymore, and we
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: would see a little bit more competitive play for the
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: last two months in the Major League Baseball season.
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think internally a lot of that what
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: you just described is something that's at least on the
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: canvas that you can start to work with. Guys that
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: I really have so much empathy for is when you
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: kind of get stuck. You're a great veteran player on
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: a team like that, and they really want to gass
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: you up for the last twenty games to help us
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: get wins here. But how what does that do for them? What?
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: You know, what, where is their career going to benefit from?
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: So you want me to go out and help us
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: win the pick, so I can lose my job to
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: that pick I won't be here next year, that kind
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: of stuff, And I think a lot of a lot
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: of players are catching onto this where they're just like, man,
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: what about my career. You're gonna sit me the whole year.
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: So now I don't have any numbers. Now I don't
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: have my values not up. You know, there's a lot
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: that goes into it. I think the unions will wipe
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: all in this very carefully too. And I don't want
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: to bring up Grannis again, but that was that was
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: extremely unique. When a player goes to the Union to
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: report that he thinks the team is tanking because they
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: refuse to let him play, like something like that is
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: not a one off. I could see that happening. You
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: obviously have to be a star of quite some stature
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: to do that, and that'll scare the hell out of
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: teams when they do that with their player. But you know,
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: that's one thing I would say is a drawback to that.
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: But I think that's a brilliant strategy that the NBA
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: has internal discussions about.
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: Well, Tommy and I assume the same exists in the NBA,
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: But in Major League Baseball, when we place a player
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: on the injured list, we actually have to have a
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: doctor submit a diagnosis, signed by the doctor and approved
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: by the league office. So I am curious if the
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: NBA has that. When the player comes out and says
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: he's healthy enough to play, does the league start interceding
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: and investigate that situation, because in Major League Baseball, they
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: sure would, and they would then force your hand to
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: make a decision about a roster transaction that you'd have
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: to make to reinstate that player and activate him if
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: indeed he was deemed ready to play.
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this one was so public it jump the wall
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: really quick. The NBA would do something similar like what
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: you just described, be handled through the media. It would
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: be something they we got this player, he thinks he's
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: ready to play. We don't. Here's our medical proof that
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: they would bring in a third party to look at
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: this and agree or disagree, take it to the union
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: for agrievance. But you know that's a long process. It's
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: not easy. But now, really again, you bring them back
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: the trust word. Players usually want to come back and play,
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: and teams do have to hold them back if they're
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: not ready to play. And that's the dance that you
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: have to always have, and that's the relationship piece of
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: this business that's so important. A good lord, we would
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: never want to put you in a position to hurt
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: your career, you know. But so many guys, especially when
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: you get into the playoffs, you can't get those guys
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: off the court that they want to play so bad.
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: I keep going back to hal Burton last year in
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: Game seven, you know, and they had a lead. He
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: was playing great, and he's out there knowing if something
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: goes wrong, I could be out not just the rest
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: of this game here in game seven, but the whole
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: season next year. Exactly what happened. But he did it.
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: He's a champions. Are most players in the NBA that way?
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: Well, you know, it's amazing. I think as executives, as coaches,
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: we always want players who are focused as much on
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: the name on the front of their jersey, the team name,
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: as the name on the back. Ironically, in the Yana situation,
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: the team's almost saying we don't want you to think
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: about the name on the front. We only want you
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: to think about the name on the back. Go get healthy,
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: and he's saying, I want to keep thinking about the
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: name on the front. That's what I've done throughout my
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: entire career and lo and behold, he's having a little
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: bit of a disconnect with the team because they're more
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: focused on protecting his name on the back, which in
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: their minds, to your point, may have something to do
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: with tanking. Who knows. And we'll see what types of
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: other chairs are moved around on the proverbial deck for
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: the Milwaukee books Bocks this offseason. Tommy, I want to
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: shift your attention to something a touch more positive as
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: we go from the draft lottery into the draft itself.
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: By my account, it seems as if the NBA arguably
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: has never been healthier than it is right now. You know,
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: I'm just doing a little homework so that I could
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: be on the same level with you for this conversation.
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: But if you look at some of the veterans they
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: have right now, some of the kind of aging veterans,
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: maybe they're on the back nine, maybe even the back.
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: Three of their career.
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: You've got guys like Curry and James and Durant Westbrook,
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: George Harden. I'm sure I'm missing a lot of names there.
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: Then you've got players who are just so dynamic and
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: in their prime. Giannis is one of those Jokic, Doncics,
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: Sga Brunson, Maxi, Mitchell, Brown, Tatum out of Bayou, and
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: on and on, and then you've got this stable of
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: young rising stars who are really establishing themselves in Halliburton
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: and Edwards and Wemby, flag Ca Nipple, Banchero, Cunningham, Duran,
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: all of these guys. And then you've got this incredible
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: draft class that's coming in. Am I wrong to say
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: that it feels like the NBA is about as healthy
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: as it's ever been in terms of waves of stars
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: that they have at their disposal right now to entertain fans.
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: I couldn't agree more. I think it's a there's always
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: it's never quite linear, and it's never really done great
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: when you have to pass the baton when players move
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: out and next players come up to that top tier,
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: somebody has to leave the top tier. It's just the
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: way that fans look, but it's really internally that's the
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: way the teams look at it, the way players do.
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: And usually we say there's there's six franchise players in
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: the NBA at any one time, and it's just like
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: they'll go to any team make them better. They go
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: to any team. You got a chance to win a championship,
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: and every year one or two guys will move in.
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: When two guys move out, it's not the same guys
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: every year. You're in year out, maybe three or four.
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: But the way that the NBA is positioned right now, absolutely,
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: I couldn't be more excited. The young players and all
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: the people that you just mentioned. Doesn't include this next
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: coming draft class, which on paper is as deep. You know,
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: the top has some star potential. But then everybody else
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: said there, throughout the lottery, there's team, there's players that
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: can help a team in the future. Most teams usually
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: when you have rookies, you're not going to be associated
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: with a great deal of winning. When Biyama was not.
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: This is his first playoff, you know, and so it
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: takes time. But that the lifeblood of the NBA is
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: the talent, the storytelling. And you know, I, for one,
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: I mean I'm looking at it. If I told you, hey,
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: here's here's these playoff matchups. How do you like? And
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: you know, you're talking about Clippers and Golden State, like,
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: oh my god, that's great. No, that's for nine ten.
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: You know, so things start to shift and you look
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: at the playing games as a whole. You know there's
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: eight titles. There's there's coaches. You know, suppose got four,
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: curves got you know, currs got four, supposed got to
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: nurse got one, t lu got one. There's some great
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: coaches in the playing And does that mean that they
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: start to usher out another era of new coaches that
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: its signed their time to win titles or is this
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: just a tough year that that's the fun stuff to
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: talk about. I do wonder as we go through this,
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: how many players believe themselves to be stars? And we'll
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: find out the negotiating table, because right now it's not
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: the time to misjudge your market. Right now is not
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: the place to really put yourself in a wrong tier financially,
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: or you can find yourself being traded quickly. You know
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: there's going to be some cass spaced teams, but make
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: sure you know your value before you do something crazy.
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: You know, Tommy, you just touched on this. There's going
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: to be a question for down the road, but let's
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: jump into it right now. If you're the number one Seeds,
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: the Pistons and the thunder, how concerned should you be
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: about those teams who are going to emerge from the
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: play And I mean, you could potentially face the Heat
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: or the Warriors in the first round and that may
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: not even be the toughest matchup for those teams. But
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: how concerned should those number one seeds be about watching
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: these playing games? And as you mentioned, there's so many
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: stars both on the court but coaches that you're going
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: to have to face in the first round of the playoffs.
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: Well, I think especially when you're facing a playing team,
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: so you don't even know who your opponent is right now,
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: you're going back and you're watching film of everybody every
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: time you've played them. Certainly, but every team that they've beaten,
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: that is what we would consider an elite team, and
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: you got to show, hey, we need to respect this opponent.
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: And I think in the NBA playoffs, they're certainly is
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: going to be across the board. The teams you just
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: mentioned Okie City and Detroit are very respectful their front offices,
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: they're they're head coaches. They think every single night that
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: that team across there can come in here and beat
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: our butt. So they're going to be prepared. There's not
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: going to be any I don't think back up from
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: their players. You know, you got an MVP with Okie City,
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: so he's not going to have a problem get ready
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: for games and in Detroit. You know, I just I
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: think that if he's healthy, Kate Cunningham is going to
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: be the next big thing point guard in the league.
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: He's going to be His name will be Kaid from
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: here on out. You don't have to say Kate Cunningham.
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: Everybody will know who you're talking about. It. It's about
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: to be his time if he's healthy. And that's just
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: a gripe about this injury bug. Is you know, not
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: playing for the last next number of games in the season.
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: Your timing's off, your wins off, and you got to
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: go play some big games for the first time in
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: his career.
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: Tommy, I'm just curious you talked about some of the
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: young stars there. Michael Wilbon, I think famously has said
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: you can't win an NBA championship until you've had your
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: heart broken. So maybe Detroit had a little bit of
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: that last year. Maybe the Spurs haven't gone through it.
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: But one thing that was noteworthy to me is if
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: you look at you mentioned earlier the gambling markets fan duels,
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: if you look at them, they're buying the Spurs as
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: the number two seed in the West, but they're not
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: necessarily buying the Pistons as the number one seed in
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: the East. And I'd be curious you're insight on that.
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: Just to give you some of the numbers. Despite being
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: the number one seed in the East, Fan Duels has
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: the Pistons is the seventh best overall odds to win
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: the NBA Championship and fourth best in the East behind Boston, Cleveland,
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: and New York, whereas they do have. The Spurs is
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: the second best odds to win the NBA Championship, behind
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: only oh Oklahoma City. Where are these two teams in
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: their championship roster building journeys? And why do you think
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: the gambling markets are buying the Spurs but not necessarily
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: buying the Pistons.
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: That's a great question. I think Detroit, especially with k
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: being hurt, and they play great without them, but still
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: in a playoff game, in a playoff atmosphere and everything
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: slows down and you're in a half court and you're
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: going to have to create. Ca is really the primary
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: creator on that team. There's not a number one behind
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: him that you could say this guy can take it.
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: And run from there that they have a great young rookie,
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: They got a couple guys that can masquerade for a
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: couple of nights in the regular season, but the playoffs
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: is a different beast. So I think it starts there.
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: I think when you look across the board, why they
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: dropped the seventh is anybody's guess. Because their top their
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: top ten on both sides of the ball offense, defense,
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: and usually when you're in that you're top ten in
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: both of those inefficiency you have a chance to win
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: a championship genuine and Detroit is one of those. But
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: I just put it on experience that maybe some of
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: the guys that are there, they have a great team
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: in the regular season, a lot of young people on
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: that team with not a lot of playoff games. You know,
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: Kay did a heck of a job as year, but
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: this year he's coming in with a really tough injury.
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: You know, a collapse along as nothing to trifle with,
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: especially late in the season and everything in the NBA.
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: You know, your wind is everything and your ability to
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: to get into tight spaces. He gets hit a lot,
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: and that's going to be in your mind that they shoot.
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: I had to collapse long I was out for two
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: three weeks. Now that's going to be in his mind,
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: so maybe that's something to do with it. I don't
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: know that they have a clear identified this is our
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: go to guy, and maybe that's bothering the odds people.
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: But where I said, I think Detroit is in in
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: that conversation to get to the championship games.
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: Well, you know, Kate Cunningham may have the letter G
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: next to his position as a guard, but he is
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: a physical player and his game is very physical. So
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: if he's not operating all clicking and all cylinders, that
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: certainly may impact his performance. Tommy, just curious your perspective
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: of what the Celtics accomplished this year. They had Tatum's
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: injury last year famously really derailing their their playoff run.
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: They then come correct and purge their payroll, you know,
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: parting ways with some tremendous veterans holiday Porzingi's Horford to
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: name three and lo and behold here they are. They're
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: the number two seed in the in the East, and
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: as we just referenced, they're also the number two seed
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: coming out of the East to potentially win the championship.
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: What what what can we make of the season they
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: just put together.
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: Well, never sleep on the heart of a champion. You know,
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: two years ago they were the team everybody said, how
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: you're going to ever take Boston out after they won
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: their championship, and then the following year. You know, I
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: think Tatum's injury was devastating to them obviously last year,
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: So you come into this year and I think a
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: lot of it was external noise. I don't think within
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: the walls in Boston that that Missoula would ever even
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: let that conversation happen. I know the players would never
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: let that happen. You know, one of the most impressive players.
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: I can't say he's unsung because he's all first team
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: all the NBA, But like Jalen Brown, he didn't flinch.
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: He did what he needed to do to help his
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: team drive wins. And he brought up young players and
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: they are so dain competitive. You know, the idea of
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: them even telling a coach, Mozilla, we got to arrest
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: this guy tonight. Are doing something. I can't imagine they
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: had to draw straws to beg If they had that
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: as Joe to do that, they probably sent somebody that
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: they considered to be who could take a punch, because
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: I don't think Joe would take that news very well.
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: But I would say that was probably one of the
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: finest coaching jobs I've seen, considering the injuries that they
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: had to Missoula. I mean, you know, for him to
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: be able to rally that team around that last night
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: and then play Orlando in a pretty significant game for
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: Orlando and they have the Celtics had eleven million dollars
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: of payroll playing in the game. They sat all their starters,
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: they had. It was like the reunion of their G
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: League team. Those guys are running up and down the
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: court and they caught fire and they are so competitive
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: and they were not going to lose that game, and
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: that was their moment to shine and they did it.
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: They stuck it to Orlando. That kind of grit, you know,
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: that comes from the top. And I don't think they
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: ever listened to the media that this is a gap year,
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: we're going to red shirt this year. They're like, hey,
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: let's go. We got enough to win. And I slew
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: Jalen at the top of that, but everybody else. They
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: had some great role players.
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: When you have those types of heart and soul players,
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: They raised the standards of excellence for everyone around them,
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: and they just don't allow you to play substandard, to
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: put it forth, a mediocre effort. There's so many players
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: who have joined that franchise in the last two seasons
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: who may have been a little bit unsung or mediocre elsewhere,
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: who have really risen to I have to think it's
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: the tone that Tatum Brown misulav set there, or when
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: you put on the green and white. You've got to
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: be prepared to play at a championship level and deliver
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: the best you have every single night, and the tone
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: has to be set at the top.
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: From that environment you just mentioned. The standard is the standard.
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: You hear that thrown around a lot. But can you
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: imagine you come into the Celtics and hey, if you
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: don't do this, you're out. Like those players are going
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: to they're going to figure that out and rise up quickly,
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: or they do, they move them out. But can you
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: imagine coming to a team that's tanking in November? What's
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: their standard? What is these players? What are they learning?
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: Are they learning how to win or they weren't learning
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: how to be professional? Are they learning that every game matters,
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: every possession matters. You're not learning that when you've got
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: a license to lose. And I think that's the hardest
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: thing if you're habitually in the lottery. You know, the
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: players that get kind of used to losing, and everybody
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: at the end of the season, next year, we're going
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: to do great things. You know, you still have a
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: lot to just sterilize. You got a lot to sanitize.
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: Get all that out of your mind. All the losing
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: you just endured for three or four years. That doesn't
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: happen with the Celtics. That's very impressive job, Brad Stevens.
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: Everyone in the front office, all their coaches. I give
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: their coaches the highest regard for their player development. They
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: got some dudes.
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: Man, tell me, I always thought, you know, being in
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: every season, you know, the head coach or manager in
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: baseball gives a rousing speech, but we're going to go
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: win a championship, and everyone gets all fired up. And
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: of course everyone wants to win a championship. But I
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: always wondered if you kind of went around individually and
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: said to the player, as you said, there are some
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: players who maybe have played on a franchise that has
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: been in the lottery of the last three years. You
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: told them, Hey, listen, you're going to finish at least
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: five hundred this year.
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: Are you cool with that?
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: They probably be like, oh, man, finishing five hundred would
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: be great. I haven't done that in like years. I've
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: been twenty five games under. It's like, we think all
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: these guys want to win championships, But psychologically, for a
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: lot of these guys, as you just mentioned, they have
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: to be untrained about accept losing because you have to
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: disassociate the losing from who you are. Otherwise you become
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: known as a loser and you can't abide by that.
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: So I think that's a huge, huge thing in sports
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: and another franchise I just wanted to bring up to you, Tommy,
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: But for the Celtics and maybe Oklahoma City, we probably
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: would have been spending the last five years talking about
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: the Denver Nuggets and how great they've been in the
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: legacy that they've created in that market. Well, after last season,
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: they felt like they had gotten a little stale, and
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: they made some wholesale changes. They fire their head coach,
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: they fire their general manager. How much better are they
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: positioned heading into the twenty twenty six playoffs? They're on
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: a twelve game winning streak here, which is a remarkable thing,
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: so much so that they chose to win a game
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: last night against San Antonio so that they now have
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: to play against the Timberwolves to stay out off of
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: being on the same side as Oklahoma City at least
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: for the first two rounds. But as you said off air,
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: they're poised now to have to play Minnesota and then
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: potentially at least San Antonio and then Oklahoma City. They
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: chose that over trying to play against the Lakers, who
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: are a great team in their own right, but quite infirmed.
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: What do you make of the twenty twenty six Denver
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: Nuggets and what they've done to turn the franchise? I
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: guess you say around. Although they were great last year
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: and they're great again this year.
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: I don't know if there's a franchise happier that no
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: one's talking about them like we spent this whole time
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: and they do. They're fine, being kind of in the weeds.
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: They like to sit for people. You know, that was
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: very unusual what happened there last year, because they fired
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: Michael Malone and Calvin Booth actually before the season ended,
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: and that was quite the experience, you know, to go
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: into the playoffs with dune leadership, new head coach, everybody
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: trying to figure out, oh my god, what are we
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: going to do? But you know there's one certain player
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: in the NBA that if he's on the floor, you're scared.
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: You're scared to death. You're open those that clock gets
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: to zero as quick as possible if you got to lead,
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: because you know, the Joker, Nicole Jokis is just a
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: wonderful player, wonderful human being, somebody that makes people want
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: to come to games, makes players want to get better,
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: makes little kids want to play basketball. He's just transformal,
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: generational player. And what I think they've done this year,
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: they got better in spite of a lot of tough injuries.
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: But this is the first year Jamal Murray really is
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: going to get the recognition of being an All NBA player.
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: And so that kind of breaks that curse of it
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: that Joker never had an All NBA player on his roster,
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: He never had another All Star on his team. That
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: he's always carried guys that those guys really between him
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: and Aaron Gordon, you know, Murray Gordon have done him
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: unbelievable job with with Joker being able to play off
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: of him and elevate their games, and then you know
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: it's real subtle. But when you plug in Timmy Hardaway,
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: when you when Cam Johnson's healthy, those guys have done unbelievable.
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: Peyton Watson's gonna be able to be a great defender.
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't really want to tangle with them, but I
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: know that's a tough road. Johnson billis back in the
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: day fists, as they used to say, if any rough
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: and any right, that's gonna be Denver this year. It's
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: gonna be a rough ride for them, for sure. But
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: I love, I love what David Adelman's done, taking that
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: team and really transforming some He tweaked a lot of
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: little things, didn't take the body Oakhich's hand very much.
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: But man, they are one of the best scoring teams.
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: They could score on anybody, anytime, as many points as
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: you need.
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: Tommy speak speaking of seeding in the playoffs, curious as
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: to your thoughts as to how much it really matters.
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: Once again, we saw Denver bow up last night and
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: ended up beating the Spurs that secured them the third seed.
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: I'm just gonna throw a few numbers out here for you,
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: and the NBA is interesting. It's quite different than Major
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: League Baseball, so it historically, fifty two of the seventy
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: eight champions have been a number one seed. In the
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: history of the NBA, the last seventy eight championships, only
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: two have been lower than the third seed. And one
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: of those was the famous Houston Rockets at chim Olajue
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: when they were.
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: The fifth seed.
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and the other one was the four seed headed
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: up by a gentleman by the name of Russell when
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: he played with the Celtics. So other numbers just to
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: consider here. The number one seed to have lost, they've
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: lost five percent of the time to the eight seed.
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: The seventh seed tends to beat the two seed about
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: fifteen percent of the time. The three seed beats the
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: six seed about thirty five percent of the time. The
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: four and five matchup, as you would imagine, is pretty
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: much a toss up. So that's about how it's been
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: played out over the years. How much does it feel
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: that way? And when you were at the helm, how
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: much did you fight tooth and nail at the end
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: to try to get that extra seed or were you
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: looking to rest guys and stay healthy going into the playoffs.
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: Well, home court really does matter. If it's a seven
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: game series. You must rather be at home in front
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: of your fans, your players, sleeping in their beds with
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: their families and being a very comfortable routine, and being
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: on the road where anything can happen. In terms of
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: just before you ever get to the arena, somebody, how
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: many times did fire alarms go off at three in
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: the morning, How many times as food sent back? How
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: many bad experiences do you have in traffic? A lot
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: of a lot of distractions can happen on the road
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: that don't happen at home necessarily. I think if you're
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: a great team, it doesn't They don't put as much
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: emphasis on it. As a matter of fact, they'd like
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: to go in and get that first game on the road.
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: Really put that team at a hell of a disadvantagementally,
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: you know, like, oh, we finally got home court and
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: we're gonna get them, and they come in and they
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: get you in that first game. You know, it's a
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: psychological chess match. You know, you start messing around with
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: these top tier teams, their players have been through ding
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: near or anything, you know, and again I'm referred earlier
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: to the play in but I look at anybody that
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: has to go up against Eric Sposter in a one
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: game matchup. You know, you're talking about a guy who's
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: got one hundred and ten playoff wins, two championships, and
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: he's gonna go against the coaches. This is his first
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: playoff game in history, and it's his first job. Doesn't
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: mean that they can't wait. I'm just saying that that's
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: intimidating before you've ever put up the scoreboard. It's a
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: very intimidating thing. The experienced players in this league, who've
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: played in the NBA for a long time, played in
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: the big, big games called the big hairy games in
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: the playoffs. Man, they don't really they don't buck too much.
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: They don't blink, they don't back up. They're fine with it,
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: you know. Tell me.
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: I've been blessed to work on a number of teams
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: that have gone to the playoffs. Some have had success,
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: some quite frankly fell in their face, Some were favored,
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: some were not. But one thing that I certainly took
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: note of was the demeanor of the veteran versus the
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: demeanor of, say, the rookie on the extremes, or at
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: least the guy who was a rookie in the playoffs,
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: and it really ranged. Sometimes you saw the veteran I
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: think they really almost got swallowed up by the moment
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: because they realized the magnitude of it and they were thinking,
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: this may be my last time being That either motivated
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: them to greatness or that in sometimes really paralyzed them
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: in the moment. On the flip side, I think sometimes
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: I saw the younger player, the less experienced player. They
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: didn't know better, They didn't know they were supposed to
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: be overwhelmed by this moment. So what I found is
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: early in the playoffs, in an early series, maybe they
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: were playing with their hair on fire, almost disrespecting the
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: notion that this was meant to be the most pressure
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: pack games of their career. But as we advanced in
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: the playoffs, you started seeing that veteran presence matter, that metal,
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: that resolve really really mattered the further you went on,
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: and that young player who maybe didn't realize it the
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: first series, they sure as heck did. When you're in
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: the lead championship series or ultimately the World Series, they
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: were very apprised of how serious those games were so
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: I don't know that you always had to have all
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: veterans on your team, but I think the right veterans
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: mattered in those cases. But I also thought that the
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: right inexperienced guys mattered. Those were sometimes the guys who
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: fueled you through the rounds, but it was the veterans
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: who carried you the championships at the end.
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: It's not an exact science. I agree one hundred percent
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: of what you said, but a lot of those young
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: experienced players were pretty dang good wherever they were before
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: they got to the NBA. There's a championship pedigree that
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: follows some players from certain schools from where they're when
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: we just got finished watching the NCAA tournament come to
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: a close, and man, those teams that were there at
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: the end, they had some championship pedigree to them, and
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: they mean the amazing return of Yukon and those players
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: that have been to the final four three days, a
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: championship game four times in three years or three times
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: for four years. That's incredible feat those kind of players
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: that they end up in the NBA and they don't
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: buck at that moment. Either a lot of international players
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: or they can roll with anything because they came in
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: they played national team games with the Olympics, the World Championships,
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: qualifiers all the time that they were used to big,
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: big atmospheres. So the younger players, that doesn't phase them either.
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: I think the hardest thing, as you said, is once
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: your name appears on the scouting report, went okay, all right,
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: ninth guys checking in your job. If he had a
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: great game before is don't make them even spell his
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: name out like he's not going to see the light
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: of day. He's not going to get oxygen. That's usually
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: what good to coaches, good teams do. But that's okay,
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: if he won you one game, great, But the experience
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: at the end of the when when you really look
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: at the end of the games, that's where the true
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: uh low stress player is very very helpful, because man,
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: it gets really high and you see some of these
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: guys that you know that they'll pitch a pitch a
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: ball to somebody that you know, you get a five count,
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: you'll see him turn the ball over. Almost unforced turnovers
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: happen because they're seeing ghosts, they're they're they're fearing what
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: could happen instead of this is what we do. This
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: is how we execute, and it is It's a hell
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: of a chess match. And you look could coaches, if
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: this is your first time as a coach getting there
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: and your team's first time getting there, you're trying to
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: give them theory of what it's going to be like
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: versus the other teams got guys with rings and they
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: got scars. And I am a big believer that you
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: always get your heart broke before you get your your championship.
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: It just has happened time and time again. So this
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: is gonna be a fun one.
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: I unfortunately witnessed this first hand. The year was twenty seventeen.
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: I was working for the Minnesota Twins. Twenty sixteen, we
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: had the worst record in Major League Baseball, so we
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: had the first pick in the draft, so nothing was
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: really expected of us, but we found ourselves in a
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: wild card game in Yankee Stadium. We went up three
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: to nothing in the first round. This is a winner,
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: take all, one game thing. We want a three to
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: nothing and we were wondering, hey, maybe we're gonna keep
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: riding out this fortunate, lucky season. Our starting pitcher came
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: out in between innings to warm up his first pitch
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: at sixty feet six inches from the rubber to the plate.
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: He threw a ball about forty eight feet almost too
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: hot catcher, and we're like, uh oh, I think this
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: moment may be too big for some of our guys,
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: And sure enough, we ended up unfortunately losing that game. Tommy,
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: Before I let you go, I got a few just
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: kind of rapid fire questions about what you're looking for
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: to most in this playoffs? You know, I look at
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: we talk about in sports the notion of being clutch.
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: The analyst will tell you there's no such thing. I
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: think for those of us who watch a lot of game,
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: it sure feels like there are clutch players. And I'm
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: just curious, how important do you think this playoff is
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: to players like James Harnden and Donovan Mitchell, guys who
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: have been superstars in the regular season but haven't necessarily
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: had those postseason moments to match. And then on the
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: other side of the ledger, who were the guys who
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: were going to emerge. Last year we saw Brunson and
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: Haliburton just put on an absolute display in the playoffs,
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: elevate their game. Do you see somebody in that kind
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: of lane who's gonna step their game up in the postseason?
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: And how important do you think these playoffs are the
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: guys like Mitchell and hard Well.
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: I think they're critical for you know, you're talking about
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: legacy piece now and Spider's been Mitchell's been in the
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: playoffs eight straight years of his career, so he's made
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: the playoffs. He's never gotten out of the second round.
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: And I know that's something that starts to be is
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: that Al Donovan. You know, he played with a lot
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: of good players in you tell he's played with a
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: lot of good players in Cleveland. But when you when
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: you wear the crown is your team's best player, you're
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: gonna wear the narrative that's attached to it. If you
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: didn't get that, if that team didn't advance, it's you.
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: It's not just the team, you know, it's always your
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: name first. James, I think that was a heck of
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: an acquisition. It was an all in move for Cleveland.
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: But I think they they saw that's a great opportunity
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: to add an unbelievable guy who can change a series,
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: who can win games, who's seen it all, and hopefully
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: I think James feels the same that Hey I've got
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: to pour myself into this to make sure my legacy's right.
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: It doesn't mean that he's not a healthy player, doesn't
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: mean he's not a Hall of Fame player. But when
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: you get it starting to be in that conversation and
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: who are the greatest, it usually starts with rings and
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: then it starts with him in clutch situations. But really
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: we can talk about the media and fans and you
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: know certainly what they look at a player in the clutch. Really,
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: it's what your teammates think of you. Is the ball
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: going to the right guy in the clutch? That you'll
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: see when players are drawing up sometimes it's like, wait,
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: how'd that guy get the ball? They know something that
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: maybe that bey else isn't thinking about. I think it's
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: very critical for those guys to have big games, to
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: have big series, to start to push back on that legacy,
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: and these are the ideal playoffs to do it. I
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: think the settings are pretty good for that to happen
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: for those players you mentioned. I just I've become really
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: nambor watching Kate Cunneyham. I think he's going to jump
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: in that's not a big surprise, but he's he's somebody
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: that's not really had a ton of a playoff experience,
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: and this could be a great welcome to the world
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: moment for him, which I think he's going to do.
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: You know, there's so many interesting matchups and how coaches
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: are going to try to take somebody out. But for me,
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: you know, I look at when you go up and down,
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: who could actually win a title. You know it's gonna
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: be the role players for Boston that can make all
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: the difference because if they can be on, then you
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: can't double Jason, you can't double Jalen. You know, it's
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: gonna make it harder for them for the opponent if
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: you got all the role players. So when I look
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: at Boston, I could pick any of those guys and say, hey,
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: if that guy's hitting threes that night, he could change
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: the series, especially early. But you know, when you really
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: look down, like there's some tough, tough matchups at Houston,
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: right a'm in Thompson could emerge as being just a
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: complete package offense, defense, everything, playing next to Kevin Durant,
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: But they might not be able to beat the Lakers,
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: and that the first round is a tough situation because
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: you got Lebron James sitting across the way and it
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: is home and he's the biggest savon. But I'm not
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: saying they can win the title. The Lakers may take
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: you deeper in the playoffs than you're comfortable with.
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: Tommy, you mentioned a few of these teams throughout this conversation,
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: but I was kind of looking at the rosters of Houston,
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: Atlanta and Detroit and just recognizing how few household names
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: were on those rosters and how many of those guys
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: should be household names, And once we come out of
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: this playoffs, my guess is a few of them will
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: be because if one of those teams makes a run,
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: I think those guys will be on the big stage
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: because it seems as if they've got some real star
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: power on those three teams who just haven't quite elevated
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: themselves to the list that we talked about earlier, but
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: they're knocking on that door. And I'll be excited to
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: watch those three teams and see how those teams do. Curious,
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: if you have anybody on upset alert, you just mentioned
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: maybe the Lakers, who I think it would be viewed
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: as an upset if they won, just because of the
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: amount of injuries they had. But is there any other
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: team that you're looking at and saying, if you were
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: the higher seed, I wouldn't want to draw this team
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: in the first round because here we go. We may
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: have our hands full with this club.
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: Now, you know, it's not that it's all chocked to
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: me that you mentioned the four fives on both sides,
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: those are historically the most competitive. Where it's gonna get interesting,
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: in my opinion, is just that first time for the Spurs,
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: right and they're coming in and if they can stay
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: in a good space and everything's positive, I think they'll
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: be fine. But they're gonna have their hands full in
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: each round. I was doing some research myself. I was
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: looking through that. The problem that you're gonna see is
• 52:33
  Speaker 2: if ant Man comes right for Minnesota and everybody's healthy,
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: and they're sharing the ball, they're defending, and Rudy's at
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: the rim, they can take away a lot of the
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: stuff that Denver does. That's one that kind of comes
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: to mind that you better be careful watching that. As
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: much as I love Denver in a first round, everybody
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: healthy deal Minnesota is every they could go toe to
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: toe with Denver that they have a very good I
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: think back for each other. But I do think that's
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: that's a series that could actually go the other direction.
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: I think they're a next factor.
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: I looked at the numbers as well, and they've actually
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: done pretty well against the top seeds in the West.
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: You know, they also haven't been at full strength for
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: quite some time, as you mentioned, so much of their
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: offense goes for Anthony Edwards. If he's healthy, he's close
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: as close to unstoppable in the league as anybody. It
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: then comes down to what do the rest of that
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: that group do, because it is a very balanced attack
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: when they're going great, but they have not had too
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: many stints this season where they've been clicking on all cylinders.
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: I don't think that's a team you'd want to face
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: early because once they get a they've been to two
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: conference championships and that's no mistake. They're beating good teams
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: throughout the course of the year. They're also backing up
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: by beating them in the playoffs.
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and one thing I throw in there, just cautious.
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: I don't think New York will have too much trouble
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: in the first round that they've they've proven they've got
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: some proven players on that team. Atlanta had a heck
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: of a second half of the he's in nineteen and five.
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: A lot of them were against lottery teams. But New
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: York is going to have the stress of there there's
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: gonna be several quote sheets that include their owners saying
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: that they should win a championship this year. He was
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: quoted as saying that early. Now you're in the playoffs,
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: that's going to get regurgitated. And so much of this
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: we've talked about as managing expectations, taking it round by round,
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: game by game, and if you're in the first round
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: and somebody throws that quote out there again that the
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: next year win a championship. That can inspire the other
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: team certainly, but it could also mess with the Knicks hand.
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: You know, they made a big change, They changed their
• 54:34
  Speaker 2: head coach after the best season they've had twenty plus years.
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: And Mike Brown's been through that, He's been through the stuff.
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: He's been a hell of a coach everywhere he's been.
• 54:44
  Speaker 2: But that's another team. I'm not saying they're gonna be
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: Leacan Oil, but they're gonna be facing a lot of pressure.
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: A lot of tremendous storylines going in the in the
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: we're recording this on Monday. We're going to start seeing
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: the play in games here shortly. But you've got teams
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: like Miami and gold the State who come they've had
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: some experience in those playing games and they've come out
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: of it and they've then done some damage in the playoffs.
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: You know, we talked, we started this conversation talking about
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: Milwaukee and how they may be now in a phase
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: where they need to rebuild. I look at a team
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: like Golden State and I wonder how many more playoff
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: runs that Nucleus has in them. This may be one
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: of the last. I hope everyone out there cherishes it.
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: It's one of the last dynasties we've seen in the NBA,
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: and in their window maybe starting to close, if not closing.
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: But you know, as you look at the playoffs and
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: you see veteran teams that maybe need to win now
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: to capitalize on their opportunities. I'm looking at Golden State, Tommy.
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: Is there another team out there that you feel any
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: extent like urgency?
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: Is it the Knicks?
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: As you just reference that if they don't really advance
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: far that they'll be deemed a lack of success, even
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: though they they had one of their highest win totals
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: in franchise history this season.
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but they still finished third in Atlanta. I mean,
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry when you talk about the Knicks, I think
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: that pressure is definitely there Golden State. I actually don't
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: think there's any pressure on them at all that coming
• 56:03
  Speaker 2: at the tensify with all the injuries and stuff. I
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: think everybody would love to see Steph magically appear and
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: be Steph of old. I'd just love to see it
• 56:13
  Speaker 2: for one more night. Just let them spend do a
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: great job. I think the Clippers are under a lot
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: of stress. I do. I really think this has been
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: a season that just they'd rather forget. They played well
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: down second half of the season. They have one of
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: the very best players in the league with Quiet I
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: think one of the very best coaches in t lou
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: But man, I just where they go from there. If
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: they don't advance into the playoffs, and certainly if they don't,
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: if they get washed out pretty quick, I think that's
• 56:40
  Speaker 2: going to be a really difficult thing for fans to rectify.
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: Where are we going? Where's this headed? So I would
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: keep my eye there and that's a big, big name
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: that when we talk about guys maybe looking for next year,
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: if they were in the relocation business, that might be
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: one of them. You know, who knows. I don't want
• 56:56
  Speaker 2: to spread anything other than just an observation, but there's
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: a lot right I had known that with the Clippers issue.
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: Tommy, thank you so much for your wisdom and your
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: thoughtful commentary and your fellowship. My friend, please join us
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: every Thursday here on Rosters to Rings.
• 57:13
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me