Latest / Love, Happiness and Success with Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby / Sexless Marriage? The Brutal Truth About Why Your Partner Doesn't Want Sex | Love | E569

Transcript

Sexless Marriage? The Brutal Truth About Why Your Partner Doesn't Want Sex | Love | E569 · Love, Happiness and Success with Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: My close friends already know this. Now you will too,
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• 1:54
  Speaker 2: Are you bringing her favorite chocolate cake or are you
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: bringing a stale brownie? In which case she's going to
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: be like, no.
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: So you love your partner. There are so many things
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: about your relationship that are working, except in the bedroom.
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: For so many couples, this is such a challenging moment
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: because it's so darn vulnerable and hard to have these
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: conversations in the bedroom. And it can also be a
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: challenge to create the change you want to see in
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: your sex life, especially if there are some differences about
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: what that looks like between you and your partner.
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: The language that you're using is important and the way
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: you approach it. So you can start by saying something like,
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: you know let's talk about our sex life there is
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: I just want to see something that you might be
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: interested in or I'm curious about what your experience is
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: like and then here is my experience obviously hopefully they
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: will ask back and be curious about your experience and
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: framing it in a way of I really like it
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: when you or I I much great when you or
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: it feels so good when you do this.
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: This is a very common situation in so many relationships
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: and that's why we're tackling it today on this episode
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: of love happiness and success if this is your first
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: time tuning in i'm your host dr lisa marie bobby
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: i myself am a psychologist a marriage and family therapist
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: also a board certified coach i do a lot of
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: relational work and that's why we so frequently talk about
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: matters of the heart here on the show And I
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: am so pleased to be welcoming back my dear friend
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: and colleague at Growing Self, Dori Baghi, who is also
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: a relationship expert, a couples therapist, and she specializes in sexuality.
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: And Dori, thank you so much for coming back to
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: talk with me about this situation, because this is a
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: tough one.
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: Thanks so much for having me again. Yes, this is absolutely...
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: A very common one and a very tricky one. So
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: I'm glad to be here to talk about it.
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: Oh, thank you. Well, I mean, this is so tough
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: because relationships are multidimensional, right? It's not one thing that
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: relationships are based on. And for so many people, sexuality
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: is important. It is part of a relationship. And This
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: is one place where it's so easy to get disconnected
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: a lot of times, especially in longer term relationships as
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: years go by. And also as people evolve, you know,
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: maybe who they are and what they were into at
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: an earlier point of life changes.
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: And now they.
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: Kind of want something different, but how to have that
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: with the same person. So first of all, like how
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: often do you see this in your office? I mean,
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: I know that this is what you do. talk with
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: couples about day in and day out is their sexuality
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: with each other. But what do you see here?
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: I see this all the time. This is one of
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: the most common things that I see among some more
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: unique ones. But this is a very common theme is
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: that we've been together for a long time. Our relationship
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: is otherwise okay, but there's just this one big thing
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: that we can't really figure out. together and sometimes they
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: have tried reading books and doing their own research but
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: it's difficult to work through it completely so it's definitely
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: a common issue.
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: Right do you see one person in a relationship typically
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: being the one to I guess change or want something
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: else or be the agitator for like I'd like this
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: to be different. And the other person is like, no,
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: I'm good. I'm fine. Let's keep things as is. Or
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: is it oftentimes both people are starting to want different
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: things but struggling to talk with each other?
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: I think it's more that both of them are feeling
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: like something's not right. It might be that one person
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: doesn't feel like they want to change anything. But they
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: still feel like something's not okay and they wish it was.
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: And they are usually very willing to come and talk
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: about their side of the experience.
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah. That's good.
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: And that if they have the opportunity, that if somebody
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: asks them, how are you feeling? There's actually quite a
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: bit there that might– be unknown to their partner before
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: that moment.
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: Yes, a lot of the times. And I do see
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: my clients, especially when we talk about intimacy, sexual intimacy
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: related topics on their own, because I do ask a
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: lot of questions about their personal experience and their sexuality
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: and how they see their sex life throughout the time.
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: So that's just, at the beginning, just so I understand
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: the context of both individuals. And then it's a lot
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: easier to work together on there.
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: OK.
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: Well, this is beautiful. And I'm hearing just a lot
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: about the way that you work, which I love about
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: you so much, is really just that curiosity, getting more information,
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: really seeking to understand who people are, what their experiences
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: have been like, but then helping them understand each other
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: so that we are putting context around it. restoring empathy, hopefully.
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: If it's okay, we actually have a number of specific
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: questions that people have shared with us that I was
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: wondering if you could answer, because I think these crack
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: into some of the specifics. And just for our friends listening,
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: how to handle some of these, because they're so relatable.
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: Is that okay if I ask you?
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely. Okay, super.
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: All right, so one that I have here, I think
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: this is a good one. So, and I think this
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: is tough. My partner does something during sex that I
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: don't really enjoy. How do I tell them without hurting
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: their feelings?
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: Yes, this is tough. And I understand that a few people,
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: a lot of people might be struggling with this. It's like,
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: I don't want to hurt their feelings. One thing that
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: I always suggest in general, not just to my clients
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: but to anyone, is when it comes to the intimacy
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: topic and talking about sex, try to do it outside
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: of the sexual experience.
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: Not in the moment.
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: Not in the moment because then you're really going to
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: just bring everybody out of that positive experience. Hopefully it
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: is a positive experience. And also... the language that you're
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: using is important and the way you approach it. So
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: you can start by saying something like, you know, let's
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: talk about our sex life. There is, I just want
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: to see something that you might be interested in, or
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: I'm curious about what your experience is like. And then
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: here is my experience. Obviously, hopefully they will ask back
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: and be curious about your experience and framing it in
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: a way of, I really like it when you or I...
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: much prefer it when you or it feels so good
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: when you do this and sort of Focus on the
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: positive more so they have the direction. Right.
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: Like, this is what I want more of.
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: This is what I want. Yeah. And then maybe sometimes
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: they even ask themselves, like, so you don't like this
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: other thing? And you can say, well, that's not really
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: my favorite anymore. Because it's okay that maybe once it was,
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: maybe you really liked it a few years ago or
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: even a couple of months ago, but now you don't.
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: That's okay. And that's something super important. your experience and
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: what you enjoy changes over time. So it's really important
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: to not forget that, that just because you liked one
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: thing one day, you might not the next.
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: It's okay.
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: Well, okay. So now as a follow-up here, so this
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: makes so much sense, like to have the conversation in
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: a neutral environment, you know, make it positive, talk about,
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: what you would prefer. All fantastic advice. And what recommendations
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: do you have about how to handle things in the
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: moment that might not just feel good, but might be
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: uncomfortable or even painful to shift the situation without creating
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: a big thing in the moment?
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: So I'm very firm on don't do anything that Yeah, because.
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: Otherwise, if you're enduring something, that's not a good strategy either.
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: It's not a good strategy for multiple reasons. So if
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: I want to get really technical about it, especially if
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: we look at perhaps penetration being painful, that can create
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: micro tears. And if that happens, your brain can interpret
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: that as this activity is hurting me. Let's not do
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: this anymore. So it can... essentially shut down any kind
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: of desire because your brain knows like, oh, if I
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: feel desire, it's going to lead to that and that's
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: going to hurt me. So let's not. So I always.
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: Start associating sexuality with pain and not pleasure. And it
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: starts to actually impact your sex drive is what you're saying.
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: And we were not necessarily conscious thoughts. You're not having
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: these thoughts like, oh, this is hurting me. Let's undo
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: it again. You push through. But your brain is storing
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: all that information and it's like, yeah, I don't really
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: want to do that. So next time your partner comes
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: and hugs you, your brain might just make you like
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: tense up and like, I don't know. Interesting.
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: So you'll just feel less attracted to your partner even.
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: Partly because you have actually not been protecting yourself in
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: some ways in these moments.
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: I always say, please don't do that. Don't push through
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: the pain. It's not going to lead to anything good.
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: It might lead to an okay experience in the moment,
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: but in the long term, we are working against ourselves.
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: So don't push through it. Stop. Take your time. It
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: requires at least 20 minutes for the tissue. If we
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: talk about penetrative sex specifically, for the tissue to be ready,
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: is there enough lubrication? Again, sorry for being very technical,
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: but it is important yeah so definitely use what you
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: need to and if you need to stop just stop
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: like hey let's slow down a little take it down
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: a notch and if you have an understanding partner which
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: i hope you do then they will absolutely be receptive
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: to perhaps doing something else or giving you more time
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: to feel ready uh and that's gonna help for sure.
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah so good thank you You ready for the next one?
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: Yes, let's do it. Okay.
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: I have a fantasy I've never told my partner about
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: because I'm worried they'll think I'm weird or kind of pervert.
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: Should I tell them?
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: How do I even bring it up? Is this a
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: bad idea?
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: Absolutely bring it up. Why not? Sex should be something
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: that you can talk about with your partner just like
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: you talk about your favorite TV show. You can talk
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: about it frequently. So You shouldn't really feel like it's
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: a big deal. But if you are in a place
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: where you do, it's not something that you talk about often,
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: then you can just say, hey, so we haven't talked
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: about our fantasies in a while. Do you have anything?
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: Did you read anything? Did you see anything? Did you
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: hear anything that was exciting for you? And then here
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: is what I think sounds fun and exciting. What do
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: you think about that? And then. wait for their response
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: maybe it's a positive maybe not so much but it
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: should always still lead with curiosity and hopefully they are
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: if they're completely like that's insane absolutely not then that's
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: not great so we can kind of talk about how
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: we talk about sex first.
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah Okay, well, then a follow-up to that one. So
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: maybe you have that conversation, broach some things, and your
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: partner shuts it down, does not express any interest in that.
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: And so is that just where it ends? You're like, okay,
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: I'm just going to put that one back on the shelf.
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: Or do you bring it up again or a different way?
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: What do we do with that?
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: So I think one thing that is important is In
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: order to be able to explore and to share interests,
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: it should be okay to say no. So if your
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: partner is definitely saying like, absolutely no way, that's not
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: something that I want to do, then that's okay. Our
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: job is not to convince someone to be into something.
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: It's more about let's have the conversation. What's exciting about
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: that for you? What elements do you find exciting? Is
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: there any overlap with what your partner is finding exciting
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: or what's okay for them? And then talking about the yes,
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: no maybes. What's a yes? What's a no? And then
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: do we have a maybe somewhere in there? Like maybe
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: I will do that part of the story, but maybe
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: not this. Is that okay? And kind of having this
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: as a collaborative effort and kind of a mutual exploration. Yeah. Yeah.
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: And, and like a collaboration, if you will, like here,
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: here's one idea. What do you think about that? And then, uh,
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: being able to, to co-create that.
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: Which also then it takes us to another question that
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: I know you get all the time, which is related to, um,
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: the difficulty in talking about this at all. Um, you know,
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: we had another question actually come in. Let me, let
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: me see if I could read this one. Um, We've
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: been together for 12 years, and we've basically never talked
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: openly about our sexual relationship. And so now I'm hearing
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: that this is important, and I know we need to,
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: but it feels so awkward, and I can't even. Where
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: do you start?
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: Where do you start? That is so hard. And I
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: always tell people that they're not alone in this. Pretty
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: much Everyone that I see comes with this being a
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: difficult topic because unfortunately we are not, most of us anyway,
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: are not socialized to be comfortable talking about this. So
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: first of all, don't feel like you're alone in this
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: because a lot of people don't even talk about in
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: detail about their sex life with their friends. Maybe nowadays
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: they started, but it's not. That's still limited. to yes
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: it's great or no it's not great.
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah like the detail part.
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah what about the details how does it feel what
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: happens when you reject them um so first of all
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: just know that it's totally okay to not be super
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: comfortable and you can even lead with that it's like
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: i know this is not something that we usually talk
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: about but i know it's important so let's talk a
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: little bit about.
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: What do we like about our sex life? And start
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: a conversation in a positive way of what do you
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: like about the sex that we have? Or what do
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: you find exciting about me? Or, you know, try to
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: talk from that perspective of like, let's come together and
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: discuss how great this is. Unless it's not. And in
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: that case, you know, this is what we could be
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: working on. Or, you know, I read this somewhere. Or
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: I've heard this somewhere. And if they're open to it.
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: Then that's a good way to start. Also. A lot
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: of the times. I have couples who have. Very limited availability.
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: And confidence. To talk about it. And come to me.
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: Or someone like me. I can't even have this conversation.
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: And then someone who. Is well versed in the topic.
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: Can leave the conversation. And usually. It only takes a
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: couple of sessions before they're quite open. And yes, this
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: is what I think about this. And this is what
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: it feels like when they do that. And they can
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: become very confident. So it's just a process.
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: Well, no, that's good. And I'm hearing what you're saying
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: is that this is a moment really to get support
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: for your relationship. But I heard you say, go talk
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: to someone, someone like me. And I'm just going to
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: say out loud, no, you guys go talk to Dory
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: because you specifically, well, no, I mean, you're so knowledgeable.
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: And the thing that I think is so fantastic about
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: you is that you know your stuff and you do
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: such a good job, but you have such like a
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: gentle way of being. Like you are just such a
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: emotionally safe person. And I think one of your natural
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: gifts is making people feel very comfortable, which is so
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: extra important when it's a situation that people naturally feel uncomfortable.
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: So anybody listening, like wanting to do this type of work, growingself.com
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: forward slash Dory.
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: Don't talk to Dory.
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: I just wanted to create a pathway during, cause really,
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: I mean, you're amazing. And that's also why I love
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: having you on the show is because your advice is
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: just so great. I've seen this so many times. I'm
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: sure you have too, is that when people try to
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: have conversations about changes that they'd like to see in
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: their sexual relationship and, and maybe, you know, there's not
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: actually a lot of positivity in that part of your
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: relationship right now. So it's really more about here's what
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: I would love to have be different. And yeah, there's
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: a lot of defensiveness. Somebody experiences it as criticism or
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: they get flooded with like shame or, I mean, there
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: can be so much that can happen that shuts people
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: down or makes them angry. Can we talk a little
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: bit about that emotional reactivity and for our friends that
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: are with us right now, are there things they could
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: be thinking about to try to emotionally manage some of
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: that if they're having these conversations outside of your office?
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: Or is this really just a situation where you need
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: to get into a supported environment in order to create
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: the safety that everybody needs to work through some of that?
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: Because this could be fraught.
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. If anger and resentment and all of that is
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: involved and it's been building for years, I genuinely think having...
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: support in that is important because it it suggests to
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: me that you weren't able to figure it out until
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: now and i'm sure people have tried many different ways
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: of finding a common ground but if it's just not
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: happening help is available so.
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: Okay the anger what what about um somebody who's like
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: the experiencing criticism or there's like this uh i mean
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: just like overwhelmed by the vulnerability or you're saying you
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: don't love me. You're saying I'm fat. You're saying I'm ugly.
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: Like there could be body issues attached to it. Performance issues. Like,
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: I mean, shame stuff.
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: I see that in, in people. And we definitely talk
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: about rejection and what is it and is what you're
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: experiencing and what your partner is saying, is it actually
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: rejection of you or is it a rejection of certain
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: activity or what, what is happening? And And where are
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: all these feelings coming from? Were those things actually said?
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: Is it your internal interpretation of the situation? So there's
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: a lot to unpack there.
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Okay. So what you're saying is that if your
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: partner is having that type of response, just to slow
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: way down and just get more curious and see if
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: they'll stay engaged. Yeah. In the ring. And maybe if
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: they won't, if they start, stonewalling or like just not
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: wanting to talk about it at all, that would be
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: a signal that it's time to get some help with that. Yes.
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: Yes. Make sure, make sure the conversation is always safe
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: and everybody's safe in the conversation. But yeah, definitely like
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: people are surprised how much they don't need anything extremely
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: big to go and ask for help. Like it could
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: be something that this is this one topic that we
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: just can't figure out. We can get help with that
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: one topic. It doesn't have to be a whole big production.
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: It could just be one thing.
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: Although, can I just add one more thing to that?
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: I learned something recently that I thought was so fascinating.
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: You know, I think that also speaks to the type
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: of person that you go get help from. A lot
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: of people are surprised to hear this, but like even
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: marriage and family therapists like me, specific education and training
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: on sexuality was almost nothing. And even as a clinical
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: supervisor of other MFTs, as a rule, there is much
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: less comfort among therapists with addressing sexuality than all these
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: other things, emotional connection, communication, all this. And so the
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: conventional wisdom in the field is that dissatisfaction in a
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: sexual relationship is a symptom of disconnection in other parts
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: of life. If you're not communicating or not on the
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: same page about whatever, you're not emotionally connected, then your
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: sexual relationship will suffer, which of course is sometimes true.
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: But that what typical therapists will do is try to
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: improve all these other parts of your relationship with the
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: hope and intention that as those get better, your sexual
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: connection will automatically improve because of that. And research shows
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: that that is absolutely not true. You can have all
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: kinds of improvement in your communication that doesn't turn into
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: positive change in the bedroom. And the reverse is true.
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: I actually just learned this from Dr. Nicole McCain, who
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: was on the show not too long ago. You guys listening,
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: scroll back on my feed.
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: She's brilliant.
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: She has a new book out and a lot of
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: more current research, and I learned this from her, but
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: that when you specifically work on your sexual relationship as
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: its own thing, which you're saying right now, Dory, then
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: you will see an automatic improvement in communication, emotional connection, teamwork,
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: all these other things. And I just thought that was
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: fascinating because a lot of times we're just going about
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: this totally the wrong way.
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: Yes. And yeah, absolutely. And there is research in I
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: think it's the same one that you're talking about, is
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: that the comfort level of talking about sex is not,
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: even for therapists, sometimes it's not there. So, you know,
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: if therapists who are real worst in talking about all
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: kinds of things, they might not even be comfortable, then,
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: you know, it's okay that you're not comfortable. Yeah. But
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: there are people who, you know, specialize in this, including myself.
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: So that's our bread and butter to talk about all
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: aspects of sexuality.
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: Anything about it. And, you know, sometimes I see it
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: in my clients. Like, what I'm going to say, what
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: I'm about to say is going to shock you. And
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: I'm always like, I promise you.
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: Try.
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: Go for it. It's not going to. It's really rare
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: that I even raise an eyebrow. Like, oh. It's like, yes,
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: that's actually common or not atypical.
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: Recap. Read the fine print. Not all therapists are the same.
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: Look for someone with specialized education, training, and experience in
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: sexuality in particular. And even better, somebody who has relational
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: training and also coaching competencies. That's not just talking about stuff.
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: We're actually changing it. people like Dory, growingself.com forward slash Dory. Okay,
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: I'm done. I know I'm embarrassing you. We're going to
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: take a quick break. And on the other side, I
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: do have some things that might actually shock you. So
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: stay tuned.
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: Let's do it.
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: As I got deeper into my 40s, I started to
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: experience some weird things. I didn't know at the time,
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: but it was perimenopause, exhaustion, brain fog, not being able
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: to sleep, and having some intense emotions. So I started
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: taking my health more seriously. This included getting more exercise,
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: getting better sleep, but also adding thoughtful supplements like the
• 28:26
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• 28:30
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• 28:35
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• 28:42
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• 28:58
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• 29:14
  Speaker 1: now involving sassy therapists, t-shirts, and stickers. And I'm in
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• 29:21
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• 30:07
  Speaker 1: LHS today to hear your first cha-ching. You guys, we're
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: back with my friend and colleague, relationship therapist and sex expert,
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: Dori Baghi. So Dori's here with us to unpack this
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: big topic. elephant in the room, right? Like I like
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: so many parts of my relationship, except you're not really
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: connecting sexually. What do I do with that? Uh, and
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: in the first segment, you had so much fantastic, like
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: really practical advice for how to handle certain moments. So
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: you can't get more of what you want in the bedroom,
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: which is incredible. Um, and I have something else to
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: show you that, that may actually raise an eyebrow, but
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: I was actually, I was sort of, um, surprised at
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: some of this. And so here's the backstory. Probably, gosh,
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: two years ago, I recorded another episode on sexuality, something
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: about what do you do if you're in a sexless relationship,
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: released it onto YouTube. And what started happening, I got
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: all of these comments flooding in from people, many men
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: who were having this experience. And really unhappy. And I
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: just want to show you some of this. And I'd
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: love to get your thoughts on some of these comments
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: because some of them were really like, what do we
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: even do with this? When the stars and moon align perfectly,
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: you get a maybe. Then if you manage to crawl
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: through the broken glass, jump through the rings of fire,
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: climb the mountains, you get a sigh, an eye roll,
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: and a reluctant fine. Let's just get it over with.
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: In the end, you are.
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: the one to feel guilty about wanting it in the
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: first place. I haven't asked again in years. It's elephant
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: in the room that is no longer discussed. Frankly, I
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: don't even want it with her anymore. I guess her
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: mission was a success, like that kind of thing.
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: And all the time.
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah. You know? And so I'd love if it, if
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: you feel comfortable with this, but I didn't want to
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: spring it on you. Like, cause there are a lot
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: of fricking comments. And what I was really shocked by
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: is like, almost a level of anger, hostility. And I
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: think you and I know that underneath this is oftentimes hurt, right?
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: Feeling rejected, feeling bad, but it's like aggressively angry. And
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: when you voiced how important it is hundreds of times
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: and it gets nothing changed, you know, they don't care
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: about you. Here's a guy. We're going to assume this
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: is dripping with sarcasm. Every wife in a sexless marriage
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: is entitled to all the sex she wants from other men.
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: Her husband should accept this. A woman's pleasure comes first,
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: not a man's fragile ego. Oh, wow.
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: First of all.
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: Most people haven't had sex in 15 years.
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: Personally, men like this piss me off in general. But otherwise,
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: I get this often. I do. I do. So just
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: so you know, usually the conversation around starts with how
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: is your relationship outside the bedroom? Like, does she feel
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: connected to you in any other way? Or do you
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: just expect sex to happen out of nowhere? Also, what
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: kind of sex are you having? Is the sex that
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: you're having good? Like, is it worth, like, is it worth, like,
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: putting aside how tired you are? And is it like the,
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: because I usually make the analogy of, It should feel
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: like your partner is bringing you your favorite chocolate cake.
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: Is that what's happening? Are you bringing her favorite chocolate
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: cake or are you bringing a stale brownie? In which
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: case she's going to be like, no.
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: I need a stale brownie, actually. Yeah, but I get
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: what you're saying.
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: But after years of stale brownies?
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you're like, okay, why? What's in it for me? Yeah. Okay.
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: Is it you for her? Is it?
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: They're mad at me too. I just want to share that.
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: So one of the things you're saying.
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: And let's just dive into this.
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: What did you say?
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: Because I don't think I've seen this one. Here.
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: I personally believe women get married so they don't have
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: to have sex anymore.
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: Oh.
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: I don't have one friend that is married that isn't
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: in a sexless or almost non-existent sex life. Maybe the
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: swingers do have it right all along.
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: I mean, they could.
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: But I mean, okay. But like, I guess what, okay.
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: Let me ask, let me ask a better question. What
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: I'm so curious, I mean, you, you specialize in sex
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: therapy and emotional and physical intimacy coaching.
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: And first of all, I.
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: Mean, just what do you make of the anger, the frustration?
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: Because what I'm guessing is that, I mean, is this
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: how they're showing up in their relationship too? Like, is
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: there a lot of anger around sexuality that is sort
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: of an obstacle to intimacy? Because I don't know that
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: I would want to fly into that storm either, you know? Yes.
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: So I usually find that that is what happens. So
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: there is a pattern of maybe at the beginning, like
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: one person initiates and the other person says no. At
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: the beginning, that's not a big deal. And then when
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: they start saying no a little bit more frequently, which
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: tends to happen after certain life events, like having kids,
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: then there is an anger and resentment that's building. Yeah.
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: You say no, and then your partner gets mad, and
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: then that's a whole thing. And now you have to
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: deal with that. That's the whole thing. So usually they
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: just avoid any possibility of even suggesting it in any
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: way that they're open to it. Women.
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: I don't want to genderize this. I'm sure that happens
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: in same-sex relationships as well. But one person is always
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: starting to get, like, avoidant, like actively avoidant.
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: Yes. So they avoid even like a hug or any
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: flirtatious touching that's non-sexual. And then it just kind of
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: goes downhill from there because now there is zero intimacy
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: and there's a lot of resentment and it's very difficult
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: to bring it back from there.
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah. You're describing like a sort of intensified, slightly different,
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: but pursue-withdraw dynamic in some ways. Like one person is.
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: Oh, not just one.
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: Angry and upset and there's hostility and like, ah, and
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: the other person is just not available and also avoiding
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: being in situations where that's a possibility, which then amplifies
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: that hurt. I mean, well, let me, I mean, hold on.
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: Is it hurt?
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: I mean, do you experience it as hurt from somebody
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: who's really frustrated about not having sexual intimacy, and it's
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: being expressed as anger? Or is it really anger?
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: I think there is anger, there is resentment, but there
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: is hurt because it usually doesn't start with anger. It
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: starts with feeling like the feelings of rejection. They start
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: feeling like they're not wanted by the person that they
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: want so much. That can start feeling... quite challenging to navigate.
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: Like this is the person that I want so much.
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: I'll do anything for them, but they're not showing me
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: the same sign. So now I don't feel so great
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: about myself. Then I'm going to start being a little
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: bit more defensive and then resentful and then angry. And
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: then this is kind of how we end up in
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: this realm where it's more anger and frustration rather than
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: curiosity about why is your partner not really wanting to
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: engage with you? We're going to crack.
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: Into that more deeply. But one more question, just out
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: of curiosity. I mean, do you see this type of
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: angry slash hostile reaction more for men than women? Or
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: do women go to this place too? And I'm also
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: just thinking here, like from my perspective as a couples counselor,
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: I haven't experienced this level of resentment that leads to anger,
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: that leads to hostility. from women related to either feeling
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: like they're holding up the sun with all their energy
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: and they have to do everything and the emotional labor
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: and like they don't get, are not getting any help
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: feeling like really alone or also, um, feeling alone, like, um,
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: emotionally can start to turn into this. And I think
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: that men can absolutely feel that way too. But I'm
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: wondering if in your experience, it's really more tied to
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: sexuality for men.
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: I think it is. First of all, a lot of
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: spontaneous desire is driven by biological factors. So there's a
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: lot of things that drive that spontaneous desire. Women, not
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: all women, obviously, we can't generalize this, but they usually...
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: experience more responsive desire so once things are already feeling
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: nice and comfy and and exciting then desire kicks in
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: whereas men just have it most not everyone uh so
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: when when it's the other way around if women are
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: the ones with the higher sex drive they tend to
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: try and communicate they tend to try and understand a
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: little bit more intensively rather than men they just uh
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: And I'm not trying to generalize. It's just my experience.
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: But they're really, really curious about why do you not
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: want to do this? And I think they ask for
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: help a little bit sooner than the other way around.
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: Because the other way around seems to be common. So
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: they just think that's just how things are. And they
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: don't have to do anything.
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: And that's the other thing, too, you know, just like
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: this sort of bonding, the discussion in the comments around
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: like almost like a worldview. But what was also very
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: interesting to me was like the the victim mentality, like
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: this person don't get married. It's their leverage mentality.
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: I have, you know, I have a lot of thoughts
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: on this type of mentality. Yeah. One thing that I
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: usually say is they describe sex as a need. Men, generally.
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: Women don't tend to describe it as a need. Men
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: often describe it as a need. It's actually not a need.
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: You know, even if you just look at Maslow's hierarchy
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: of needs, it's not there.
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: It's a drive, though. It is a drive.
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: It is a drive.
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: So, I mean.
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: It is a drive. But it's not a need as
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: far as you don't have it. Horrible things are going
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: to happen. They won't. Obviously, there are things that will happen,
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: but you're still going to live. But that's, you know,
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: obviously it's not to say that you shouldn't work on it. But, yeah,
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: there's definitely... There can be a victim mentality, but also
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: I think a lot of years of even sometimes years
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: of feeling rejected can have this effect. And this is
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: where I try to clarify first when I talk to
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: my clients is what is being rejected? Because a lot
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: of the times it's not you. it's a specific type
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: of act that perhaps you've been doing for years. And
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: maybe your partner is just not into that, that package
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: of what happens when you have sex. It's not who's not,
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: who's not wanted. It's that specific. Yeah. I feel great.
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: And isn't that much fun? And like, yeah. Can we
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: talk about that part?
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: Got it.
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: So one more thing and then there were, then we'll
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: move on. But like, I think this is so interesting
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: and I'm, so happy to have your perspective here because honestly,
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: I think I checked out of this comment section afterwards.
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: I'm not doing this with you guys. So here's one.
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: One person here, and I was like, wow, women hold
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: all the cards and initiate 80% of divorces, get rid
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: of no fault divorce and see if things change. They
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: might actually make an effort if they knew they would
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: leave with 10% due to lack of consortium instead of
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: getting half of everything along with cash and prizes for
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: failing their duties and responsibilities as wives. And so I
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: was like, wow, I relate it just, you know, like
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: the embedded misogyny there and the sort of let's roll
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: some of those rights back because, you know, it's But
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: I mean, I'm curious to know, and I don't want
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: to certainly confidentiality and everything, but if you've ever encountered
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: any of this type of attitude or these dynamics, this,
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: but also what we're seeing here by people coming into
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: your office as a sexologist, as a relationship expert, and like,
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: where do you even start with this? Because I.
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: I start from... Okay, yeah. Just the beginning, like where
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: is this coming from? Where is this idea coming from
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: that it's your female partner's duty? This is their role.
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: This is their job. Absolutely not. They can participate, obviously,
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: if they want to, but they can also... It's not
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: their job by any means. Yeah. So I usually explore
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: where is this coming from. Also... Along that, I explore
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: with them wherever this is coming from. A lot of
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: other things have come from as well. Do you hold
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: everything still? Or have you changed perhaps some of your
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: perspectives on a number of things?
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: Are you talking about family of origin influences?
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: Yes, family of origin and messaging from their cultural backgrounds.
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: There can be a lot of things that are impacting
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: how they view sexuality and their roles or even gender
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: roles in this. So absolutely exploring where is it all
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: coming from. And to be fair.
• 45:16
  Speaker 4: In all of my years and all of my clients,
• 45:21
  Speaker 4: the ones that I actually have my eyes on and
• 45:24
  Speaker 4: are able to talk to, they always realize like.
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't even know why I think this way.
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: I love my life very much and I'm going to
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: work on making this work. But obviously I don't see everyone.
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: Clearly none to... gentlemen in the comments, but, but, uh,
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: there is, there's definitely opportunity to turn it around in
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: a way that's, that's a little bit more.
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: Friendly.
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: No, I get that. But that's honestly a great point.
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: And that's been my experience as well. I mean, you know,
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: somebody is coming in hot and they're angry and they have,
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: you know, developed a narrative and a worldview about what's
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: going on, but when you, but actually having some time
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: and space and, um, this opportunity to talk about how
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: they feel and why they feel the way they feel.
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: Um, we can kind of move.
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: Through that and make contact with some softer parts that
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: are more relational. And, and, but that, this is a
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: great point though. Cause like somebody who's in a relationship
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: with somebody who might be, uh, in this space right now,
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: perhaps the same approach, like that curiosity. And can we
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: talk about things without people freaking out and shutting down
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: and getting mad? can um what am i trying to
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: say like get get through all the layers of crap
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: and and into a more authentic.
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: Place i i definitely believe that and i always i
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: use the word curiosity in relation to sexual exploration and
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: conversations often because if you have genuine curiosity about what
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: is going on for your partner but also where are
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: your ideas coming from and why do you think feel
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: a certain way uh about what you feel so being
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: curious is where it all kind of needs to start.
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah it's hard to do though when somebody's being
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: a jerk aggressively jerking.
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: In hot they're coming in fun it's your job to
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: fulfill me and it's like i don't want to be
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: curious about.
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: Like that does not sound even a little bit fun yeah.
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: That's okay that's why i'm there usually or you know
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: another specialist who can be curious and and ask these
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: questions and hopefully we can turn it around i find
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: that you know if someone genuinely shows up with I
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: want to figure this out or we want to figure
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: this out, then that's already a big step in perhaps
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: dismantling all the beliefs that are not helpful anymore.
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: Right. And you know what? How fantastic, like what a
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: nice takeaway that if somebody is having these feelings and
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: thoughts on one side or the other, either I'm so
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: angry and hurt and upset and have all these ideas
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: about why I'm being harmed, or on the other side,
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: this avoidance and anxiety and unwillingness to participate, those are
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: signals that there is stuff to talk about that isn't
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: getting talked about constructively. And what a fantastic signal to
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: do something about it and talk to somebody like you,
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: maybe exactly you, because I can't imagine this gets better
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: on its own.
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: I doubt it. I honestly doubt it. So if someone's
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: open and willing to have this conversation and look at
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: themselves and their own dynamics, definitely go and talk to
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: someone because it can be helpful for sure if they
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: are willing. But if someone's already closed off, I'm right
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: and you're wrong, it's not much.
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, on either side. And looking through some of these comments,
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: and maybe I can find another one, like that but
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: there were a few people who were like yeah my
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: wife has just told me that she's not even a
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: little bit interested in doing anything anymore ever and to
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: just like let go of it and I want to
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: be faithful I want to maintain my commitment I love
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: her I want to stay in this marriage but like
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: she just totally unilaterally changed the conditions. And I feel
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: like I don't even get a say. And like, is
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: that okay? What do you do with that?
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: It's, so I'm always, let's go back to where is
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: this coming from? Where did this start? Why is she
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: saying that? Perhaps there's a long history of certain dynamics
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: and patterns that made her feel this way so let's
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: explore that is there anything that we can change in
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: that is there any way in which she can feel
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: a little bit more intimacy sexual intimacy that's not necessarily
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: necessarily penetrative sexual intercourse because a lot of the times
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: we generalize sex as one thing and there's a lot
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: a lot of different things that can happen that can
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: feel exciting that can feel like a sexual interaction that
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: doesn't have to, that doesn't require all of the things
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: that you might be very comfortable with. So always be
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: curious and explore. Yeah.
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: Well, okay. So we just kind of rolled right into it.
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: I mean, we just started looking at this and talking.
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: And so I'm going to do a.
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: Three, two, one.
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: But I really appreciate your commentary here.
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: I just jumped in. Oh, no, no.
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: This is super. And I want to put it in here.
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: Once I start talking about it, I can't stop.
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: Oh, no. It's just so interesting. And I'm really, really
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: glad to do this. And so what I think maybe
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: we use this as like the middle section. And I
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: think it'll be really interesting for people, honestly. But like
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: it's like interestingly toxic, right? related to sex and i
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: like i don't even know what.
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: To do with this it is and is so yeah
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: it's it's something that's easy to to navigate and um
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: the entitlement sometimes is baffling.
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: The entitlement but at the same time though like there's
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: Some that's so, like, here, let's just really, let's look
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: at this one really quick. There's, like, it's hard to
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: not also have empathy. I mean, like, this person.
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: It depends. Obviously, I'm not joking. Some, the entitlement is crazy,
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: and some, like, that's why it's empathy of, like, that's
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: a really tricky situation.
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: Dory, thank you so much. I feel like we were
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: just kind of, like, tiptoeing around the third rail of,
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: you know, what it can really look like when we're
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: not talking about these things, we're not seeking positive change
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: in relationships and how people start to feel about their
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: relationships and their partners when there's a lot of water
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: under the bridge, right? And so I think it's maybe
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: just caution and an example of why it's so important
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: to try to do something about this sooner rather than later.
• 52:54
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• 52:58
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• 55:26
  Speaker 1: now final stretch. We're back with my friend and colleague,
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: Dori Boggi. She's a relationship expert and a sexuality expert
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: here with me at Growing Self, specializing in emotional and
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: physical intimacy, which is what I love so much about
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: your work, Dori. So in this last bit here, I
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: would love to get your thoughts about how to handle
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: some of the tough stuff that can come up for
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: couples when trying to work on it, create positive change
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: with their partner and realizing that some of the things
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: they hope for might not actually be possible in the
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: context of this relationship. And then what do you do?
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: So Here are a couple of examples. It looks like
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: a lot of different things. Like I feel humiliated.
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: Why?
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: All I want to do is be held.
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: Physical touch.
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: Too much to ask. Married 37 years.
• 56:29
  Speaker 2: No hugs.
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: No touch.
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: Roommates.
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: Move by me like ships in the night.
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: What happened?
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: We loved each other. Now don't touch me. I will
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: never have sex with you again for the rest of
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: our lives. Keeps ringing in my ears. How could she
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: say this?
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: Help.
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: I mean, like that's a genuine like.
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: Like, what do I do with this?
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: Again, like, I hate that I'm repeating myself, but it's
• 56:57
  Speaker 2: definitely always the question that comes up for me is,
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: how did we get there? How are we here? What started?
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: How did we get there?
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: How did we get there? I always ask my clients, actually,
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: individually as well, you know, describe the relationship from the beginning.
• 57:13
  Speaker 2: Where it shifted over time? Where did you start feeling
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: like you're not as connected? What was happening around that time?
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: And how did we end up here? Because there's always
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: something that happens along the way that you can identify
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: of like, yes, that made a big change. Or that's
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: when we stopped talking to each other. That's when we
• 57:31
  Speaker 2: stopped being curious about what's going on for the other
• 57:35
  Speaker 2: because we were holding our own. so tightly everything was
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: so difficult that i did not have a capacity to
• 57:42
  Speaker 2: be curious about what's going on for you uh yeah
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: there is a lot in that and 37 years is
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: a long time there's a lot that.
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: Happens i'm thinking right now two things like one um
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: and this is an intervention that i'm sure you do
• 57:59
  Speaker 1: the same but like that i frequently use with couples
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: is actually like draw out a timeline on a piece
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: of paper. And like, what are the moments in that
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: history that were impactful? Because you're bringing up such a
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: great point that we can get fixated on our present
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: circumstances without really considering that, how did we get here?
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: And I mean, rule number one of any type of
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: systemic work is not what happened, but what happened right
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: before that thing happened? And like, what was the chain
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: of events? Because that's oftentimes where there's more opportunity. Yeah.
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Another point, especially in really long-term relationships that comes
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: up often, is that for some reason, people tend to
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: rely on information that's too old. So what you liked
• 58:49
  Speaker 2: in your 20s is not going to be the same
• 58:50
  Speaker 2: thing that you like in your 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s.
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: And people stop reading. exploring or they stop to ask
• 59:01
  Speaker 2: like are you still into the same thing is your
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: body still enjoying the same thing it does it it
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: will work the same can you even do the same
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: so there's a lot of um exploration that needs to
• 59:13
  Speaker 2: happen regularly and that's a that's a conversation that we
• 59:17
  Speaker 2: have often as.
• 59:18
  Speaker 1: Well and and maybe this is the pool at the
• 59:23
  Speaker 1: end of the water slide if you're not having those
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: types of check-ins periodically? Is this what the hell happened?
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: And he really doesn't know, but perhaps there were points
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: along the way.
• 59:36
  Speaker 2: What are they into now?
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: They could have a conversation about that.
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: Just out of curiosity, and I hesitate to ask this question,
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: but I can't help myself. Have you ever had a
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: couple or even an individual coming in the door in
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: this type of state, right? That it is 30 or
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: 40 years later and it is bad.
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: Is there a.
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: Story of transformation? Have you seen people come back from
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: this and have a new era in their sex lives
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: with each other or?
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. And I actually Love them because I think it's
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 2: really great that they are here and they want to
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 2: work on it. And I always say that I think
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 2: it's great that they still feel like, look, there's a
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 2: lot of time in this. Let's have fun with that.
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 2: Let's try and work it out. So almost all of
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 2: the couples that have been together for a very, very,
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 2: very long time, they know each other a lot. And
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 2: often they rely on that. Like, I know you. More
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 2: than anything, I know you like the back of my hand.
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 2: And that's where I come in to say, I.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: Think you know them.
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: Interesting.
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: Okay. Yeah.
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: So then we explore about, you know, what are the
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 2: things that you used to be into and now you're not?
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 2: And perhaps any new fantasies, any new interests, any new
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 2: sensations in your body that feel good or things that
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 2: used to and now they don't and your partner keeps
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 2: doing the thing that used to feel good and you
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 2: just don't know how to tell them that actually that
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: doesn't work for me anymore. I like a different type
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: of touch or a different kind of approach. So these
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 2: conversations are very important. And often I make sure to
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: frame it in a way that... We're not starting new,
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 2: but we're starting a new era. So let's put everything
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 2: that we know about each other sexually behind us. And
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 2: let's explore like you just had. Start again. But also,
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 2: age is a factor as far as biology and how
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 2: bodies respond to certain things. And we need to talk
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 2: about that as well. And if we talk about a
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 2: heterosexual couple, they might not know exactly what's going on
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: for the other. And it's also sometimes a topic they
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 2: are not really wanting to share because there can be
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 2: some feelings of shame or they don't really know how
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 2: to say. So there's conversations about that.
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: Wait, what are we talking about right now? Because I'm
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: thinking like menopause and that could absolutely change experiences.
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 2: Even the way your skin experiences touch changes throughout menopause.
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 2: Lubrication changes. pretty much stops. So you need to use
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 2: a lot of other things in your toolkit, literally.
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah. You said those are solvable problems, people. I love it.
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: But yeah, you can't keep doing what you've always done.
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And for men, often erection becomes a little bit
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 2: more challenging, maintaining or achieving, or there's a lot of
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 2: things that can happen. Or certain positions just don't work
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 2: because our bodies don't move like that anymore. So there's
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 2: lots to do. Like, ow, my hips. Right. Sometimes I
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 2: draw pictures because I'm suggesting perhaps sometimes positions of, like,
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 2: have you tried this? Because I know that that can
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 2: be an easily accessible position. And sometimes I'm here drawing
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 2: pictures of, like, is this you? Is this her?
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: I want to see somebody's picture story.
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 2: I have photos of them because I'm like, oh, my God.
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 2: My day? Oh, my gosh. Share them. Why have I
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 2: not seen these?
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: Oh, my God.
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 2: Okay. Well, okay.
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: So we're going to shift gears in a second. But
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 1: I do have one more question for you. And this,
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 1: I'm really curious about your reactions to this. Because, you know,
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 1: to your point, what you're saying, people... evolve over time.
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 1: And what was true for you when you were 20
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 1: is not maybe going to be true for you when
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 1: you're 40 or 50, whatever. Um, and, and even like
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: physical changes aside in a long-term relationship, what if the,
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 1: you have grown an interest in or a desire for
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: a type of sexual relationship that because you do know
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 1: your partner, um, that is just never going to be
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: something you will experience with them just because of who
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: they are and what they want, right? That there's more
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: of a fundamental incompatibility. Do you ever see that in
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 1: your work? Where do you go from there?
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 2: It's not as common, but I definitely see it sometimes.
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 2: And that we talk about, a number of things. One
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 2: is that fantasies don't have to mean that that's what
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 2: I want to do. Sometimes fantasies can remain fantasies that
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 2: you think about or addressing your own time. However, if
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 2: it's really something that requires another person and you have
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 2: asked your partner and they said no, then we also
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 2: talk about The fact that obviously exploration can only happen
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: if it's safe to say no, because then you can explore, okay,
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 2: this is a no, but maybe something is a maybe,
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 2: and maybe something is a yes. So I always ask
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 2: a few questions about what about this specific thing is
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 2: exciting for you? Because maybe we can break it down
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 2: enough that there is something in there that your partner
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 2: is also interested in. And the partner who is hesitant,
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 2: they need to be very comfortable saying no to whatever
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 2: they want to say no to. So that if they
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 2: have a maybe, they can say, okay, maybe that part
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 2: I'm into. So usually they find a way. If they
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 2: don't find a way and the person who has a
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 2: fantasy or has something that they feel like it really
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 2: is essential to their life that they explore then that's
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 2: a very different conversation yeah because then they might need
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 2: to do that but it might not be compatible for
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 2: the relationship that you're in and then yeah that's different
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 2: dynamic have.
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 1: You experienced success story so just like extrapolating and moving
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 1: that into the future i mean say that you know
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: one at least on paper solution is to explore like
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 1: an open relationship we we still love each other we're
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 1: going to be married and do like you know, 90%
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 1: of the relationship that we've always had, but in this dimension,
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 1: maybe we have a little bit more, more freedom or
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 1: a different arrangement. What I'm curious is like, if, if
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 1: people are considering that as a solution, I could almost
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 1: see it like coming into a relationship and everybody's on
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 1: the same page that maybe openness is going to be
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 1: part of how we relate to each other. And right. Like,
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 1: Versus somebody who's been in a relationship for 10, 20,
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 1: 30 years and now wants to shift into that type
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: of dynamic. Have you ever seen that work or is
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 1: it just so fraught with anxiety and fear that it
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 1: doesn't work?
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 2: I usually say open relationships can work if before you
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 2: do anything, you have a lot of conversations, not just one,
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 2: but like many. If you can, talk about it with
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 2: a professional because they will have questions and topics that
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 2: you need to clarify for that to be successful. If
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 2: you don't have the opportunity, then, you know, read, but
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 2: there's a lot of angles that In open relationships, that
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 2: can be a hurdle that sometimes people can move through
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 2: and sometimes it can break down the relationship. So I
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 2: always suggest that if they can and they have an opportunity,
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 2: take this topic to a professional. I have that conversation
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 2: with my clients periodically. Sometimes that's what they're coming for.
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 2: It's like, hey, this is what we think of doing.
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 2: Can you help guide us through this? Is there anything
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 2: we might not have considered? And there's always something they
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 2: might not have considered. And that can work.
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, okay. So, and I know that this is
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 1: a huge thing and many, many conversations and very complex.
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 1: And I don't want to oversimplify it. So anybody listening
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: to this podcast, like this is not the whole enchilada.
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 1: There's more. And I'm hearing from you, Dori, take your time,
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 1: slow down, like make sure you know what you're getting into.
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 1: But what are maybe one, two, three of the things
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 1: that you are inviting people to consider and talk about
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 1: that maybe they weren't thinking about before? Because this is
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 1: such a great point. Like a lot of people considering
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 1: this don't even know what they don't know. A part
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: of your job is to be like, And there's this. Like,
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 1: what are those?
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 2: Honestly.
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 1: Besides herpes.
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 2: Well, it's not. Well, it is that. Honestly. Oh, my God. Honestly,
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 2: it's one of those. But I'm like, so how are
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 2: we dealing with protection from whatever you want it to be?
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 2: Protection from STDs, STIs. And it's not even that. Babies.
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 2: It's not even just babies. I think people for some
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 2: reason stop at penetrative sex of like, okay, I'm going
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 2: to wear a condom. Okay. So now you're telling me,
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 2: I don't know how explicit I can get here, but
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 2: you're telling me that.
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 1: Go all the way. Spotify might shut us down, but
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 1: it's fine.
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 2: Sorry. That you're not going to participate in oral sex.
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 2: And they're like, ah, no, I want to. I'm like, okay.
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 2: So you do know that it's the same. You can
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 2: pass things the same way with oral sex as. penetrative
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 2: sex so did you consider that and a lot of
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 2: the times that kind of holds the process of what
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 2: do you mean I can't go down on someone and
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 2: they can't go down on me what do you mean
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 2: they can there is like different devices you can use
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 2: but you need to consider if that's something that you
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 2: want to do or even rule it out altogether this
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 2: is an important conversation because STIs spread Obviously, that's something
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 2: that is a real issue that can present itself. That's
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 2: one thing. And it's actually a big one that a
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 2: lot of the times people can't really move on from
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 2: for a longer period because they imagine this all-encompassing sexual
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 2: experience with a new partner. And here I am saying, okay,
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 2: but have you considered going down on someone or them
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 2: going down on you? How are you going to use
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 2: protection and these dental dams and other things or still
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 2: using condoms, but they don't want to do that. Okay.
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 2: So then what does that mean for your relationship?
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 1: Right. And yeah, because it's their, their, their partner also
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 1: needs to consent to this level of risk and be.
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 2: Cool with it.
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 1: And yeah. Okay. That's a, that's a fantastic example. What
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 1: are some others?
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 2: Um, Another one is perhaps they're not agreeing on how
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 2: much to share. Some would think, like, I want to
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 2: know everything. And the other one is saying, like, I
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 2: don't want to know anything. And that is.
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 2: We can agree maybe that that's going to be separate
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 2: rules for each person. But usually we try to come
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 2: up with a mutual rule. And.
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 2: You know, if you want to know everything, that's fine.
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 2: And it's your prerogative. But usually it doesn't... Certain details,
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 2: not great to know because you're going to visualize and
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 2: that can create a lot of things. A lot of... Yeah.
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 2: It can create jealousy. And obviously jealousy is a big factor.
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 2: But that's an obvious one that we talk about. Like,
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 2: how are you going to handle if you think about
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 2: it or if you find out or if your partner
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 2: shares it? A really important one to know is that
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 2: this is an ongoing conversation. So it's not that we
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 2: decided today that we're going to open and for the
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 2: next 10 years we're going to be open. With each
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 2: and every experience, you can revisit. Is this still what
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 2: we want? Yeah. And sometimes it's not anymore. And then
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 2: we can recalibrate or stuff all together.
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah. But that's also great, though, that just because you
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 1: start going down a path doesn't mean that you can't
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 1: change or renegotiate or decide to do something different once
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 1: you have more information about what the experience is actually like.
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 1: And that a lot of times we're having conversations about
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 1: things that might happen in the future. And I mean,
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 1: I don't know about you, but I don't really know
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 1: how I'm going to feel about something until I have
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 1: the experience a lot of times. You know what I mean?
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 1: And then like, OK, wait, never mind. you know, or whatever.
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 1: And that sometimes maybe it's less scary than we imagine
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 1: things will be. There's another possibility, but yeah. But this
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 1: is great advice though. Don't have the conversation once and then, no,
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 1: this is what we agreed upon. And you're like, no, no, no,
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 1: that's not the way it works. Yeah. Dori, this was
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 1: such a good conversation and thank you just for being
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 1: so generous with your time and your expertise.
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 2: Thanks for having me. I, I love these. These are
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 2: really important conversations to have. And some fun. I'm having fun.
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 1: I get to hang out with you. But so any
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 1: last words of advice or takeaways for our friends listening,
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 1: recommendations for next steps? Besides, wait, I'm going to mention one.
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 1: If you want to work on this, you guys, Dory
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 1: is your person. GrowingSelf.com slash Dory. She offers free consultations.
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 1: She's lovely to talk to. And even if it winds
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 1: up not being like the fit person, she'll give you
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 1: some good recommendations and send you on your way. So
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 1: aside from that, what last words of advice?
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 2: I think, you know, just to round it all about today,
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 2: try to stay curious about what's going on for you,
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 2: but also what's going on for your partner. And if
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 2: you're able to do that, a lot of the things
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 2: can start rolling into a better place. So curiosity, let
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 2: that be the, I guess... Word or today. Right.
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 1: That's my big takeaway, too. Curious about yourself, too. And
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 1: if there are feelings of hurt, anxiety, defensiveness, get curious.
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 1: Why am I feeling that way? And also, don't make
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 1: up stories about your partner. Actually go and find out.
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 2: Don't assume because you might be wrong.
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 1: Such good advice. Dory, thank you again so much. And
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 1: I hope we can do this again.
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 2: Again soon. Thank you so much.