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The Church Jesus Wanted · Red Couch Theology

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Hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of the Red Couch
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Theology podcast. Hey, this week we are talking
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about John chapter 17. And Alex thinks that this
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passage is one of the more important pivotal moments in the
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book of John where he he starts to shift swords, the rubber
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meeting, the road and the church being the church and the
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Commission that God gives the church.
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And today's episode, we're going to talk about the messiness of
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how that's actually played out throughout human history.
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The church seems to be off the rails so much of the time.
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We're not unified often times. And why does God do these things
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in and through the church? And we discussed some of that
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messiness and yet maybe hold up this hope that the church is
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still a beautiful thing in the world.
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Let's dive, right? We're in the studio, Alex, and
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I'm off the camera. You're off the camera.
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I have the scoop all close to you now.
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We're in the studio. I think everything's working.
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We're probably in. I don't know if we're in focus.
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We have a red couch in our Red Couch Theology podcast.
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Unbelievable. And after the tech whatever of
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last week. Yeah, Alex was threatening to
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cancel this show for all of eternity because he had to use
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his iPhone as he can. It was awful.
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I was like. Well, that's partially because
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Alex decided. Well, actually not decided, was
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forced into actually updating some of his devices in order to
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run the show. He's like, what?
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What? I have to update my devices.
1:43
Wait, we're not still on OS keystone or whatever it was
1:47
called? Not keystone.
1:49
Maybe you are like is Yosemite, is Yosemite not still?
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Working that's like 3 go or something like I'm on Leopard.
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Oh man, yeah, from. National parks to wandering
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through animals. Yeah, well, just a couple
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updates for the show. Alpha class is done.
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Alpha's done. Well done.
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Congratulations. Class is done, and so the
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content of the show will go back to mostly just sermon content
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and then all of the other nonsense that we naturally do.
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Yeah, which I think I feel like we've moved away from nonsense a
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lot. Yeah, I've had several people
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tell me that. And I'm like, I disagree.
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I feel like everything we do is nonsense.
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But. When they've said you've moved
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away from nonsense, have they said like, good job, you've
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moved away from nonsense or oh man, I miss the nonsense?
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Yeah, well, I've already told my to told you my theory about the
2:49
show, that new people to South love the Red Couch, the other
2:54
podcast. And then they because it's like
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it humanizes us. They get to know us.
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They get to see how, oh, they're not that cool.
3:03
Like I could hang out with those guys because they're they're
3:05
like idiots. And then once they figure that
3:09
out, they're like, oh, they don't actually have anything
3:11
meaningful to say. And then they stop watching the
3:13
show. There's my theory.
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So hold on, let me boil your theory down into a sentence
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like, oh, I got to know these guys.
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Oh, that was an underwhelming experience.
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Oh, I think it's it's got a beautiful utility where they get
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to know the personalities of people who are on a platform
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that are far away. They don't always get access to
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OK, but then they were like the actual show content, not so
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much. Although I said that on a
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previous show and someone came up to me and they're like, I'm
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still listening. I love the content of the show
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and so maybe we're underselling this.
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I think this is such a great podcast and.
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The wild swings, yeah, in this today, like there's a waste of
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time. Nobody likes us, love.
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It's amazing. On that note, now that we've
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both shamed ourselves and our audience.
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Me. It wasn't me.
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I'm in a mood, Alex. I'm in a mood because I'm in
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battle rattle. Let's rescue this Aaron's got a
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sermon to write. Can you define battle rattle for
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our? Audience No, because I don't
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have it. I am the only one on staff that
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doesn't experience battle rattle.
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As you guys talk about it, my life is battle rattle.
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You do too. Yeah, but I'm always writing
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sermons. I know.
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So you're more familiar with battle, but you still get it.
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I talked to you on a Wednesday afternoon or Thursday afternoon
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and you're like, I don't have an opener yet.
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That's but I like I'm but yeah, but I'm always like, that's
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fine. It'll happen.
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Whereas I feel like battle rattle is defined around people
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that preach irregularly. Yes.
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So they, they like, feel this big shift to the whole world.
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So they're like, no, this is a big thing.
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Whereas I'm like always there. And I'm less.
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And you're less like that. I'm less there now, too.
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And that's just comes with Rep repetition and stuff where I'm
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like, you know, yesterday at 3:00 in the afternoon, I was
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like, if I had to, I could preach.
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Sure. Right now.
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It wouldn't, you know, it, it wouldn't be as polished, it
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wouldn't have as good of transitions or some great
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stories or whatever, but I could teach this text with passion and
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joy. Yeah, right now.
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And it's like, that's like a feeling that you, when you're
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newer to preaching, you don't get that until maybe ever.
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You maybe never get to that place leading up to a sermon.
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And then even after the fact, you're like, that was the worst.
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Yeah. So.
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Yeah, So I, I just think after a while, like, you know, the last
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time I didn't have a sermon to think about was like 2018.
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Like I've been thinking about sermons constantly since 2018.
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Wow. So, so like, you know, that that
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like, and before that, that wasn't true.
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You know, I might preach every six weeks, every couple of
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months, but like, there were whole weeks where I was like,
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I'm not thinking about a sermon when I, you know, if I go on
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vacation, I still know what I'm preaching the week I get back.
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It's only four weeks away. Yeah.
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Yeah. When I go on sabbatical.
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That's going to be. That's going to be weird.
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Like I'm gonna, like, I don't know if I'm not gonna know what
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to do with myself. Yeah, The wild thing about a
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sabbatical is you like, you don't know how much weight
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you're carrying until you put it down.
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And you're like, whoa, that was a lot more weight than I Yeah.
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You're aware of some of the weight.
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But then like once you put it down, you're like, whoa, that
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was a lot. Just the the constant demand for
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your brain on a thing. Totally.
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Yeah. Yeah.
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Yeah. So I, you know, I can't.
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I, I think I'm a big compartmentalizer, so I tend to
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hold stuff in different spaces. And a lot of guys are like that,
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you know, just as a generalization, you know, we
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have this thing over here that kind of there's doors that you
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shut and they, it stays there. So I don't, I don't feel like I
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sit in a space for a lot of the week where I can be working on
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stuff. But I'm not like angsty.
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I'm not an angsty person in general.
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Like until something comes up that I didn't know that would
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make me angsty. And then I'm angsty like, you
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know, I think. You're selectively angsty.
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Yeah, that's probably true, yeah.
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I mean, when it comes to food, you're highly angsty.
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Yeah, if they're if they get the order wrong.
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Yeah, That that's, that's a thing.
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Yeah. And if someone says like, I
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don't know, like I feel like George Martin is better than Jr.
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Tolkien, I'm like, we were actually.
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I was actually when. It's on topics that are so
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deeply nerdy. That's when you get ASD.
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I was, I was in a pastors group the other day and we were at one
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of the guys churches in this group trying to help him do some
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tech stuff, like trying to figure out he's got these new
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tech rhythms they're working on. And he was like, oh, what do you
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guys think? And you know, he's a self
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confessed techie. He loves it.
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And then he's tech guy is obviously a techie and so he's
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asking some of her opinion. And some of the guys like, Oh
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yeah, I love this too, and the two and stuff.
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And then one of the guys like says, well, I'm I'm not a nerd.
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And then he's like, well, I am just not this kind of nerd.
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Like. And I was like, Oh yeah, me too.
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That's yeah, definitely there's. Different flavors of nerd.
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Tech nerd and Tolkien nerd, Those are very different things.
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So anyway, all that to say, you're in Battle Rattle, and
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that's a good place to be for you this week.
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Yeah, it's more the yeah, it, it always just sits there in the
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vacuum mind and you're kind of assembling it.
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Yeah. I, yeah, I, I, I also think you
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have this thing on the weeks what you're preaching where and
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like, I have some kind of weight on what if everything goes wrong
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and the sound like blows up or the, you know, everything falls
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apart technologically. I carry the weight of the what
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if, but not any of the solutions.
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So like I'm always like, oh, what if this happens and this
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happens and this happens, whereas you still carry some of
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the figs. Oh, I still put in all the
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lyrics for our worship service on weeks that I Yeah, yeah,
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yeah, yeah, yeah. There's still little things like
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that that I still end up. Doing that would be like me
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building all your slide. Well, a little like me building
9:42
all your slides when you were preaching.
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Yeah, yeah. No.
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So because both of us preach and our slides are our notes.
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Yeah. Like this is the, you know, cat
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out of the bag. Neither one of us preach with
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notes. You know, I experimented with it
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over the years and stuff, and we both of us kind of go up there
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without notes. I have my closed laptop on stage
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in case the technology goes down because I don't know how I could
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survive without it. If I'd just, like, look at my
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Bible in the blank stare. And I'd be like, yeah, yeah, I
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don't know. Yeah, it'd be interesting.
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But we don't preach with notes. We use the screen in the back.
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And I know I've like figured out how to build slides in such a
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way that it is my notes I need to say the things that make that
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next slide make sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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And you kind of are the same way.
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Well, I would defend myself in this way because I used to
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preach without notes before I used Keynote.
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Yeah, so I used to have no slides, and I used to preach
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without notes, which used to drive people nuts.
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They hated it. Well, because they're like,
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like, I think people now are very much like, actually it's
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not. Maybe it's not fair to say
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people hated it. The people that had come to know
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a preacher with keynote were like, oh, I crave the keynote.
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Now, yeah, yeah, yeah. Whereas like I used to be like,
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yeah, like I'm just going to depend on like my ability to
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talk story and blah, blah, blah, blah.
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So I would just get up and just start talking.
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And but but yes, I think you're right.
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There is a a level of comfort if you know that you have slides
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you could talk about. So if someone were to pop up one
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of the slides, you're like, Oh yeah, I would know what I could
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say. Yeah, honestly, it's like for
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for me, I think I could because like for both of us and actually
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for most preachers, like hopefully most preachers, you've
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studied the passage enough that, I mean, I've got 4 hours of
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material, probably maybe not quite 4, probably 3 hours of
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material per per sermon. And so I could easily talk about
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this text for ad nauseam. Yeah, that's not the risk that I
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tend to run. The risk is whether it's
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rationally in the same direction at the same time and pulls
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towards a. That's definitely the challenge.
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And so for me, the slides help me make sure that I'm following
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a logical flow of thought that other people can follow.
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So the fun part would be if you did my slides and then I had to
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get up there and kind of like they'll be such a fun game to
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play for each other where I did your slides one week and you did
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my slides and you just got up and had to like cold deliver.
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They'd be such a funny, funny slash terrifying joke 'cause you
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just be like, I don't know what that next slide means.
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Funny slash terrifying joke that we're trying this week.
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You should just slide one in there just to see what happens
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what? Happens I'm just gonna put a
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random picture of something you know how I.
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Do short circuit yeah to the floor and start sucking my
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thumb. You know how I'm more than you
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to be, to be fair, have like some pictures in that are just
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like, you know, look at this picture.
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Duh, duh, duh, duh. I'm just gonna put one of those
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random pictures in. Just see what happens.
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Just see what you do with it. Well, I've done mean things to
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you before where I, like, make massive promises for the
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following week's sermon while you're in a different country.
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I did that to you once. Well, like, yeah, this is a hard
13:19
question. Alex is definitely going to
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cover that next week. Yeah, which is even more
13:24
embarrassing when I haven't listened to the sermon before.
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Yeah. Yeah.
13:28
Oh. Man, good times.
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Anyway, hey, we did nonsense. We did nonsense.
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Look at us, we're back on the horse.
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So you were in John chapter 17 this last week and.
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Which I think you can make an argument for John 17 that it is
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the summary of the whole of the book of John.
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OK. OK.
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I don't remember you saying that this last Sunday.
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I didn't, but it's like the culmination, at least of all of
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the theological ideas and John. OK, yeah, talk about that for a
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minute. Well, it's like it's, it's got
14:12
the big center story of glorification for Jesus and what
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that means, like, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm going to die, which has
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been a story that's been an undercurrent all the way along.
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OK, Yeah. You know, and then this
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culmination of the what eternal life is like the, the zowe,
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what's the Greek word? Zowe.
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No, for eternal, no zowe, something blanking, you'll pull
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it up in a minute and I'll be like, Oh yeah.
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So which is it early on in this chapter or is it I will rain?
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It's right at the start, like verse 6:00-ish or something like
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that. I've revealed those who didn't
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give you out of the world everything you.
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Might have already passed it. OK.
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So it's probably early keep. Going up, keep going up.
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Keep going up, keep going. Up that's verse one man can't go
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up further. Oh yeah.
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Yeah, there we go, verse 3. Now this is eternal life, but I
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think actually you might translate it.
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It's something like life of this age or something like that, a
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life of the age. So it's this guy.
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Whoa as I drop my laptop. Oh, shoot.
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Well, that did. Well, I forgot that I'm not
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sharing my screen, entire screen.
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There we go. So it's this, it's this word
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here a long period of time, long ago.
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And actually, it's nuanced use would be to a period of unending
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duration without end. OK.
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Yeah, Yeah, OK. So it's like life of the age to
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come, life of the, you know, so, so this is this thing that
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you've been invited to, which again, is also what Jesus has
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been talking about since the beginning of John.
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You know, like he's talked about this in John chapter 3.
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So it's almost like these theological threads are all
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culminating in this chapter. And it's like Jesus is talking
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to his father about what has happened, what he's doing, and
16:12
what is going to happen afterwards.
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So like I, I, I, I feel like you can can make an argument that
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John 17 is far more central to John than people generally think
16:25
of it as being. Interesting.
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Yeah. So like for me, like entering
16:31
into it, I was like, wow, this passage is a huge deal.
16:35
Like it's like and, and of course you could say that about
16:38
any passage to a degree, but like there's some passages.
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About me. This is because I'm preaching.
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This is the most important text ever, you know.
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But but like some passages feel like linchpins, like like Romans
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8 feels like a linchpin in Romans.
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And it's like almost exactly halfway through and it splits
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some of the indicative and imperative flows of the text to
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be a little nerdy about it. And.
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And so, yeah, I just kind of went into this with this, like,
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wow, there's some really great stuff in this.
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And yet to only focus really on the last 6 verses felt like
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really what I was called to share on it.
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Like really what I wanted people to take away from it.
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Yeah. So why?
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Why did you conclude that? So so I I think like for me.
17:35
Like the story we've been telling the other stories all
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the way through John, you know, we've talked about how like how,
17:44
how, how much John can be redacted down to believe in
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Jesus. You know, and, and the takeaways
17:53
are that every single week. And it's so different to the
17:57
Sermon on the Mount where you might have, you know, a
18:00
different take away every two lines or whatever.
18:04
Yes. And it's this like long, like
18:07
meandering book with all these stories and these big excursions
18:11
on theology, theological issues, and yet they're all reduced down
18:15
to believe in Jesus, believe in Jesus.
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And actually John 17 is as well. It's believe in Jesus.
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It's like what this is like read verse 3.
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What does verse 3 say? Yeah, so verse 3, Yeah.
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Now this is eternal life that you that they know you, the only
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true God, and Jesus Christ whom you've sent.
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Yeah, so, so there's like a like this central narrative of like,
18:41
yes, it's not the actual word believe, but it's the
18:44
relationship peace again. And then there's this like the
18:49
prayer for the, the, the first disciples, which felt, you know,
18:52
important, but still things we'd heard Jesus do with the, the 11
18:58
now formerly 12 before the last 6 verses feel like that's the
19:04
brand new information in the chapter.
19:07
That's the stuff that we've not heard yet before.
19:10
Like Jesus is now very openly like, OK, you 11 and maybe the
19:16
others that are surrounding those 11, the 100 or whatever
19:19
end up in the upper room. Like this is all this is yours
19:21
to do now. Like there's a big task, but
19:25
there's going to be all these other people, which is, is
19:28
really kind of like distinct here across the gospels as well.
19:36
Like there's, there's a, there's a, there's a, there's a, an
19:41
illusion like in in Mark and in Matthew, like go into all the
19:46
world and preach the gospel or go and make disciples of all
19:50
nations, baptizing them. And so there's this sense of,
19:53
well, that must mean that there's going to be others, but
19:56
never quite has Jesus said something like.
20:00
I don't just pray for these guys.
20:01
I pray for everyone who's going to believe because of them.
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And so like this interesting moment where Jesus names us or
20:12
not names us, but but directs, you know, prayers to us.
20:16
Like that just felt so distinct in the whole of John.
20:20
I kind of came away with the sense of how can you not focus
20:22
on this part? And then the reason he gives for
20:26
it, like actually the sense that it's going to give huge
20:32
credibility to the message when you guys are one, like in unity
20:39
and then says these things like in unity, like my father and I
20:44
are in unity. Yeah.
20:47
So you have these modes where you're like, what?
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Like the God who has been in this constant unity with himself
20:56
from time immemorial, time beyond time, the church's unity
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has the potential to reflect that.
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Like, this seems like one of those passages where Jesus like,
21:08
swings to the fences. It's like this is how good it
21:12
can be. Yeah.
21:12
And actually I think interestingly it carries.
21:16
You're like, I feel the same thing in John, like up you've
21:20
had this like very, very clear message.
21:23
John's given believe in Jesus, believe in Jesus, believe in
21:25
Jesus. You get to the upper room
21:26
discourse, which we've kind of like rebranded and like, like
21:31
we've shifted because there's something happens there where
21:33
he, he pours into his disciples with this like unconditional
21:38
love, instruction, clarity, heart.
21:43
It's like these, the upper room discourse is like this big heart
21:47
for his, for them. And then in these verses, it
21:50
starts to pivot. Oh, now we're getting after it.
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Like, yeah, yeah. Now you're full of who I am.
21:56
Yeah, you like you're the people who believe, Yeah, I've
22:00
demonstrated my love. You're full of that love.
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And now there's there's a shift towards let's change the rest of
22:07
the world and it and that shift starts to happen here.
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And then in, in in chapter 18, which is going to be for this
22:12
coming. It does have a different tone.
22:16
Like there isn't a categorical shift in the tone.
22:18
So I, I actually joked when we started it that John 17 is like
22:23
the last thing your parents say, especially parents of boys.
22:26
When you walk out the door, it's like, you know, OK, we're going,
22:29
we're coming back. Don't fight.
22:31
Like get on with each other. Like this is not the time for
22:33
that. But it's not that really.
22:36
It's don't fight because you've got this huge task to do.
22:43
So it's actually done best by all of you pulling in the same
22:46
direction. Like so it's it's way beyond
22:48
that. Like it's, it's so it's a
22:50
beautiful invite. But but, but, but kind of like
22:56
his notes or ideas in John 14 and 16 where he says it's better
23:04
that I go away. It's another one of his
23:07
statements that's hard to believe on the surface.
23:10
Yes, you know what I was feeling and I don't know, I'd be curious
23:13
to think to see how what you thought about this when I like
23:18
the end of John 17 and I haven't read at the same level past 19
23:26
yet. This feels the Sermon on the
23:30
Mountie version section of the book of John.
23:34
If there was a rubber meets the road implications of all the
23:40
precedes peace in the book of John.
23:44
It feels like some of the section where he's he's starting
23:48
to less in the in the like teaching sense.
23:52
It's not a sermon, but he starts to tell them, OK, based upon
23:57
this belief that you've that that I've been consistently
24:00
trying to teach you up to this point, like believing in Jesus.
24:05
Now this is how that belief should unfold in your
24:08
relationships with each other and in chapter 18 in your
24:12
relationships with power and the empire in your and he stretched
24:17
a model for them. The implications of all of us.
24:21
Well, well, if you think about like, yes, in Matthew, he has
24:26
the Sermon on the Mount. That's, you know, 3 chapters and
24:30
I think takes about 12 minutes to recite.
24:32
So not long by our sermon standards, but it's the longest
24:35
continual idea, assuming we think it was a continual idea.
24:39
Some questions about and then in chapter 12, someone asks Jesus
24:45
about the law and he's like, you know, all the law and
24:47
commandments are wrapped up in these two things.
24:49
Love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself.
24:53
And then he kind of looked back at the sermon on the men.
24:54
You're like you gave us 3 chapters to say that we could
24:57
have figured all that out if we'd just know to love God and
25:01
love our neighbor. He's like, Yep, now.
25:02
You're now you're really seeing like and and that's really what
25:09
these chapters in John are, aren't they like a new
25:11
commandment I gave to you? Like stay in the vine.
25:15
Like it's all very stay connected to God, connect.
25:17
Stay connected to your neighbor. Yeah, you know, there's this
25:21
invite to this like this bigger ecosystem, this Kingdom that how
25:27
you act effects the other person.
25:30
And so somewhere it's all interrelated.
25:34
And so it's it's you. You might really sum it up by
25:36
say staying good relationship with God, staying good
25:40
relationship with your neighbor, especially your Christian
25:43
neighbor in John, which is maybe the distinction John has versus.
25:50
Some of the. Others, yeah, some of the
25:51
Synoptics, which tend to nudge a little bit towards love your
25:55
enemy, who's going to give you credit for loving your, your,
25:58
your, your friend, like, love the person who's not like you.
26:02
And John's a little bit more wrapped in like, no, the thing
26:05
that's going to draw people in is if you guys actually love
26:08
each other as a community. Yeah.
26:11
Interesting. And.
26:12
And then when, like, what does that mean?
26:13
Like, you know. Yeah, So all right, we opened
26:19
with our nonsense section of the show on this idea that you're a
26:23
nerd. And so my question for you, as
26:27
you worked your way through John 17, were there any like deep
26:33
cuts or debates that you encountered in among scholars or
26:38
anything like that where you're like, oh, that's just such a
26:41
nerdy thing that I'm going to, I'm not going to, I'm not going
26:44
to bring that up on a sermon, but man, it's cool.
26:48
And I actually had it in my head all week and didn't write it
26:52
down. So now you got to look.
26:54
At it life of me can't remember what it was this.
26:57
Is a rare occasion like you have such insane recall, yeah, that I
27:01
can almost ask you any question on the show and you can like
27:05
recall. A thing.
27:05
For some reason this one just I. Stopped him, folks.
27:10
I win. The Red Couch podcast for the
27:13
week. I found a a a void in his
27:16
memory. Dawn, that memory, I must be
27:20
getting old yeah, he just. He's he's over the hill, my
27:23
friends, so. All.
27:26
Right. So if we we can just summarize a
27:28
little bit. So you have the chapter opens
27:33
with Father of the Hours. Come glorify your Son, that your
27:36
Son may be glorified in you. It's this long discourse from
27:40
him. He prays to be glorified, then
27:44
he prays for his disciples. I've revealed to you those who
27:48
have given to me out of the world, now that they know that
27:53
that everything you have given me comes from you.
27:56
Like you, the world's given you. All that I have is it is yours.
28:03
Trying to jog your memory here. Yeah, it's not working.
28:09
So. Oh, yeah.
28:10
So this was actually. No, this was it.
28:12
Yeah, Now I've got it. OK, It's fine.
28:14
I think I might know what it is because I think you mentioned it
28:15
to me midweek, but. Oh, I don't know.
28:17
Well then you can remember that if it's not the.
28:19
Same. All right, So so.
28:21
Actually, the thing that I started to nerd out on was how
28:26
do you take like Paul's deep passion for theology?
28:34
Like, so this is like all the way through the New Testament
28:37
letters, it feels like Paul's fighting for correct theology
28:42
and he's like, he comes across angry at different points.
28:44
And he's like, even to the point that, like, you remember the
28:48
Galatians 3 passage where it's like, I wish those the
28:51
circumcision crowd, those mutilators would go all the way
28:55
and castrate themselves, like. And he's just like gunning for
29:00
people. It feels like he's just taking
29:02
people down one after another. Yeah.
29:05
Yeah. And how do you put that
29:07
alongside John 17 and the unity piece?
29:11
And how do those two things work together?
29:13
And so I actually started to wonder, like, you know, we've
29:15
talked to different points about how the church has split over
29:22
the years. I'm talking worldwide church,
29:24
you know, and whether that's like the, the East and West
29:28
split, you know, at the turn of the century, you know, about
29:31
1000 AD, you've got now the Eastern Church in Constantinople
29:35
and the Western Church in Rome. And, and then there's the
29:38
Reformation split about 500 years later.
29:41
And it almost feels like every 500 years we just get a little
29:45
salty with each other. And there's this like this split
29:50
thing that happens and then you, you know, that accelerates all
29:57
the way through the last 500 years as it like double s down
30:02
with the church really double s down on splitting.
30:04
Yeah, yeah. You get like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
30:06
You get like. The the the.
30:07
Exploded the fractions. Totally.
30:09
Yeah. So you, you go into that
30:11
Reformation movement and not only do you still have the
30:14
Eastern Church or the Orthodox Church, you have the Catholic
30:17
Church. And then you have the, the, the
30:19
modern Protestant movements. And suddenly you've got like the
30:22
conformists and the non conformists.
30:24
You've got the Anabaptists and the, the, the pedo Baptists.
30:28
You've got like these like constant splits.
30:32
Then the Pentecostal movements of the, of the 20th century, the
30:37
Methodist movements before that, all those different things.
30:40
And so I started to wonder, like in the midst of that, how what
30:46
is Jesus heart for the church there?
30:50
Like if we really buy the Unity piece is for him this, this a
30:56
heartbreaking thing where it's like, Oh no, it's not supposed
31:00
to be like that. Yeah.
31:04
Or is that just the difference between uniformity and unity?
31:09
Like is, is the uniformity like, OK, fine.
31:11
Like, you know, the, you know, that's fine.
31:14
You, you, you don't have to all be the same.
31:17
But then what does it define good relationship in in the
31:20
midst of that, like I actually went and looked for this quote.
31:22
We had this, this Catholic or economical pastor priest to come
31:28
and speak to our church in England and he's dead.
31:31
He's dead. The guy's dead now.
31:33
He had a motorcycle accident, which was super sad, but he was
31:35
like doing all this great work trying to build relationships
31:39
between churches. And, you know, he kind of came
31:42
with this sense of like, we would love to have better
31:44
relationships with, you know, our brothers in the and sisters
31:48
in the Protestant Church. As Catholics, like we just want
31:53
to acknowledge that the protest has been seen.
31:56
Like the the whole protest was around salvation by grace and
32:04
faith by grace through faith. It was only that, but that was a
32:08
big centerpiece of it. Yeah.
32:09
Yeah. You're talking specifically
32:12
about the Protestant, the Protestant.
32:14
So like, yeah, when that took place, there was a body of
32:18
Catholic Bishops and leaders who said the larger Catholic
32:23
leadership was off the rails on this issue.
32:25
And. So Luther like like the start,
32:27
the 95, the start with Jesus Luther like just over 500 years
32:32
ago goes and nails 97 theses I think.
32:35
Is it 97? 95.
32:37
Nails them to the wall of the cathedral in Wittenberg.
32:40
And and like suddenly there's this like big shift, but the
32:44
leading theological piece, you know, there's all the
32:48
indulgences being sold by the church, all the different
32:51
elements there, but there's this big shift towards salvation by
32:55
grace through faith. And so this guy kind of came
32:59
back with this sense of like, no, we know we're on board.
33:06
Like, actually, you can go back and track it.
33:08
Like there's been statements made for the Catholic Church
33:12
like that. We as a church now believe, as
33:15
our Protestant brothers and sisters do, that salvation is by
33:18
faith, by grace alone, through faith.
33:22
No more conflict. Yeah, and so you can find little
33:27
clips of this guy on online and the comments are vicious.
33:37
It's just like, like, I mean, they all come out like, you
33:40
know, they're like, this is the Church of apostasy.
33:43
This is the Church of this. This is the Church of that.
33:46
And it's just and, and, and and I think this is what we do a lot
33:53
of the time. You know, it always reminds me
33:57
of the, you know, remember the famous Love Wins book Bell book?
34:02
The book comes out John Piper that day on Twitter, you know.
34:07
Heretic. Was farewell Robbell.
34:11
Like, like, like the joy we have in in pushing people out the
34:17
door. He's like he's part of who we
34:22
are. Yeah.
34:24
So so like I think. So your some of your wrestling
34:27
was around? I'm reading this text where
34:30
Jesus advocates for this deep global transformative unity.
34:36
Yes, and not just for the 11, not just like this is like
34:40
you're going to need this for this liminal experience you're
34:43
about to go through. It's no, no, no.
34:46
You all need this. This is forever.
34:50
And yet what we've seen in church history since Jesus spoke
34:53
these words is this like accelerating fracturing of the
34:57
of the church. Yeah.
34:58
And and that we almost celebrate it, like we almost love to have
35:02
markers that tell us who's in and who's out.
35:05
Yeah. Like it almost seems like a
35:06
passion project. Like, like you, you you actually
35:10
can just go to churches and find real quick what are the markers
35:13
that make you acceptable or not. Yeah.
35:18
And so like, yeah, how how do you deal with that?
35:23
Like, like how, how do you keep unity?
35:32
We're not only are we different, but we seem to thrive on our
35:36
differences. OK.
35:37
To put a hand up and say, say we're different.
35:39
So let me ask this then if you frame it that way, it's like,
35:48
yeah, this is a travesty. We shouldn't shouldn't be
35:52
disunified, but we all seem to have this intuition that there's
35:57
a certain set of things and we might even use the language like
36:02
in a newcomers lunch here S the hills to die on.
36:06
There's there are there is a list and they're worth dying on
36:12
of things that you kind of have to believe if you're part of our
36:16
are in crowd and different groups may have a bigger list or
36:21
a smaller list and so be it. But we all seem to have a list.
36:24
Are you saying there should be no list?
36:27
No, I'm really not. And and and I think that the
36:33
hard thing is to try to narrow down for what is that list,
36:39
because not everyone agrees on what the list is, let alone
36:42
like, you know. Yeah.
36:43
How to think about the list? There's been this thing that's
36:47
flown around, especially in the Presbyterian Church for years
36:51
now. It's from the 17th century.
36:54
It's it goes like this in essentials, unity, in non
37:00
essentials, liberty in all things charity.
37:06
Now, I think I've definitely come across churches that have
37:12
done the first too well, but I've almost never come across
37:18
churches I don't think that have done the last piece well.
37:23
So it seems like that statement is kind of saying what Jesus
37:27
says. Like even if you completely
37:30
disagree, there has to be love. Like there has to be like, you
37:37
know, has to be some level of like that deep love.
37:40
That was the English translation for Agape for years.
37:44
Yeah, yeah, yeah. They didn't use love, they used
37:46
charity as this. Yeah, yeah.
37:49
This distinct like coming from like charis I suppose.
37:53
Eventually. Charity.
37:54
Yeah. Yeah, that's the Greek.
37:57
Yeah. And and so I just, I've just
38:00
never felt like we're very good that at all like because our our
38:05
non essentials fluctuate so much and we get so particular about
38:12
the things that are our particular brand or our
38:15
particular way of doing things actually seems really hard for
38:19
us to continue to love in the non essentials.
38:22
Yeah, which is why it's like, you know, to reference back to
38:26
Alpha, the closing session session we had was about the
38:30
local church. And you know, I, I said in that
38:36
last class of Alpha, this topic is probably the hardest
38:42
personally for me when it comes to the Christian faith because
38:49
I've seen this body of humanity that's supposed to be one way
38:55
and very rarely feels like it's what it should be.
38:59
And I'm one of them. And not only am I one of them,
39:02
I'm a leader within a community of this population that would
39:08
call themselves Christians. And it's like, it's terrifying
39:11
to me in a lot of ways. And and yet, if you look at
39:21
human history, powerful entities throughout all of human
39:27
histories have tried to tap into the force that is the local
39:32
church, like Christendom. Constantine sees, Oh my
39:40
goodness, there is such a critical mass of some intangible
39:44
power inside of this band of like outsider Christian people
39:52
that it's I can no longer fight it.
39:56
I've got to join it, you know, And there's conversations about
39:59
was he actually a follower of Jesus or not?
40:02
Or was it just political utility?
40:04
And the answer is probably yes. And he's not unique either.
40:09
No. And over and over again it
40:11
happens today with like political powers.
40:14
Today they find that religious faith communities have this in
40:20
incalculable force in human existence that are so powerful
40:26
that politicians and kings and dictators are like, we got to
40:32
tap into this. I don't understand it, But if I
40:34
don't tap into it, I don't have the power I need to accomplish.
40:37
What? Well, there's actually all these
40:39
like and, and most historical things you can look at from the
40:48
you can look at it in ways that are either faith-based or, or
40:52
not faithless. Yeah, or, or pretty critical.
40:54
Like I, I think John Golden Gay has a really good framework for
40:57
this. He talks about like, there's
40:59
believing and then there's critique and like criticism.
41:02
And we're trying to do believing criticism.
41:04
We're trying to land like with the best of both worlds.
41:09
So you can look at Constant Constantine and say, oh, man,
41:11
the Roman emperor became a Christian.
41:13
That speaks to the beauty of Christianity and the seeing of
41:16
the light. And then you can look at the
41:18
political elements of it. At one point in the history of
41:22
Great Britain, the Vikings invaded Britain and, and had
41:27
defeated the the Christian kings of Britain and said we're
41:32
actually going to become Christians.
41:36
Now you can look at that from a like beautiful faith story of oh
41:40
man, they saw the light. And then on the other hand,
41:43
there's a theory at least and has some, you know, good
41:47
research behind it, that they actually saw what it looked like
41:51
to be a Christian king like, and they saw all these Christian
41:55
kings that their countries were wealthy, their people were well
41:58
off. No one was rising up against
42:00
them. They had a deep respect for who
42:01
the king was. And these Viking kings that were
42:04
constantly having to fight to keep their place, whose people
42:08
were almost starving, were like, oh, I want some of that.
42:12
So they went back to their homelands and said, well, you
42:14
just keep sending us money. We can be at peace.
42:16
But we're not, we're not our Christian country.
42:19
And so like, yeah, which is it? Yes, as you said, like, you
42:23
know, perhaps both. So.
42:27
So there's all these moments in history.
42:29
I heard someone say a while back and I, I really liked this
42:32
concept. They said if you're someone who
42:35
finds yourself rooting against the church, like know that
42:39
something you love, you probably have because of the church or
42:44
because of the Christian story. Like there's very little in this
42:47
world that is detached from the church.
42:52
Yeah. And and this, and this is the
42:56
age-old tension of being a follower of Jesus that's part of
43:01
the global church is if you look at any individual within that,
43:07
we're all broken. Totally.
43:09
And if you look at different seasons within that church
43:13
history and you see all this season was just horrifically off
43:18
off track and did heinous crimes in the name of Jesus or in the
43:22
name of the cross, whether that be, you know, the Crusades or
43:28
slavery or you name it. And then, which is why the new
43:33
atheist movement like rises up and says, actually, not only is
43:38
am I an atheist, I'm a, I'm an evangelistic atheist because I
43:42
think that religion is specifically Christianity is
43:45
detrimental to the human experience.
43:49
And so they tried to snuff out one of many seasons in human
43:56
history where where a group of philosophers or thinkers have
44:01
tried to snuff out this Christian tradition.
44:04
And now as science has progressed, now the new atheists
44:08
are kind of out of vogue. Like they're in the in the
44:11
philosophy space, the science space.
44:14
Like they're still atheists, but they're like very more open
44:17
hearted atheists. They're more agnostic.
44:19
They're like, yeah, like, OK, as science progressed, we can't.
44:23
Science turns out doesn't have the answers to the human
44:26
experience that we were hoping. And so yes, I might still be an
44:30
atheist, but I'm no longer a militant atheist because we see
44:33
the writing on the wall of that mode of existence and it's not
44:38
doing good things to humanity. So all this to say, it feels so
44:45
messy, and I think that's one of the hardest parts about being a
44:48
Christian is you. You got like God.
44:50
Why would you choose to do your mission in the world through the
44:55
hot mess that is humans? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
44:59
And yet he does. I and the almost every period in
45:03
history, we look back like there's all this brokenness.
45:08
We named some of it somewhere in small enclaves.
45:13
The the way of Jesus seems to get passed down on a pretty pure
45:18
level from generation to generation.
45:21
Like in the dark ages, it mostly goes into the monasteries and
45:24
you see the story shared through these monks that kind of they
45:28
close the doors off and they row and they prayed or they serve
45:32
the communities around them. But they that's where it seems
45:36
to get held and and the outside church people that might have
45:41
Christian in their name are wildly superstitious, living
45:45
some kind of mix between Christianity and like magical
45:52
superstition of whatever culture they came from.
45:57
But the story seems to pass on somewhere.
45:59
Yeah, and actually that's been happening since the very
46:02
beginning of God working with humans.
46:05
Like if you look at the story of the Old Testament, the the idea
46:08
of a remnant is this constant thing where even you have
46:14
prophets, you're like. I'm the last.
46:16
Faithful one left and God's like, OK, wait a minute, I have
46:20
1000 strong that are still faithfully seeking me and trying
46:26
to to to engage my way of existence in the world.
46:30
And the same thing's true about the church and, and this is the
46:34
hard part, drawing a line. And this is part of why our
46:37
propensity to draw lines is like, we want to say we're the
46:40
remnant and other people want to say, no, I'm the remnant based
46:45
upon our belief systems. And yeah, and.
46:48
And so messy. So one of the things I think we
46:50
can acknowledge is it's not just in the physical world that walls
46:57
make us feel safe. So, you know, like we, you know,
47:01
you got that feeling you have where you're headed home.
47:05
Maybe it's a dark night. Like you pull in the driveway,
47:08
you get up to your house, the lights are on.
47:11
You get in, shut the door, lock it.
47:14
And everything's like there is that that moment of like, OK,
47:17
I'm just. I'm safe now.
47:19
Yeah, and that's actually true in terms of the spiritual world
47:25
as well. Like so we have these feelings
47:27
at different times alike with ideas where we're like, OK,
47:30
these are my walls. Theologically idea.
47:34
And if anyone pushes up against those walls, it's like an
47:37
invasion. It questions my safe space.
47:42
Now, the walls may be in the wrong place.
47:45
They may like, actually be unhelpful, But they make us feel
47:51
like we're safe. And so to go back to your
47:54
question, like other theological distinctives, the essentials,
47:59
yes. How do you determine those what
48:03
those are? Well, Well, there's some
48:05
frameworks that we can talk about, but even when things are
48:09
non essentials to most people, if we feel they're essentials
48:13
and people start pushing up against them, we get pretty
48:16
antsy pretty quick. Yeah, You know, we feel like our
48:20
safe space has been threatened. And so that's just what what
48:23
churches do. And that's what pastors do at
48:28
times, Christian thinkers, writers do at times.
48:32
They start to react when it feels like someone's.
48:34
Question. And there's a ton of
48:36
psychological and neurological studies around why we have this
48:40
propensity as creatures, because it's, it preserves calories to
48:45
just predefine good, bad, safe, not safe.
48:49
It's like, like our very, our very Physiology is crying out
48:54
for this like black and white, good, bad, safe, not safe so
48:59
that we can, we can sort of like offload it from the, from the
49:03
conscious world to the subconscious world and, and
49:06
operate in, in the world. And so, but I think the way of
49:11
Jesus and the invitation of Jesus is to constantly fight
49:16
against and ask deeper questions about all of those things and
49:21
not let our brains offload at the quantity of things that they
49:24
want to offload and ask that deeper, more human questions.
49:29
You know, the safe, not safe is a more animal question.
49:35
It's a, it's like, how do I survive?
49:38
How do I keep me and mine safe and and and survive and
49:42
procreate and exist as a creature in the in the in the
49:46
that sounds very animalistic, whereas Jesus says no, no, no,
49:49
you're made in the image of God. We have an opportunity as
49:53
creatures because of how I've made this humans to actually not
49:59
settle all the issues and actually wade into the Gray
50:03
space of human experience and learn how to love enemies.
50:07
Learn how to hold things in tension.
50:11
This is a uniquely human capacity, but it's deeply
50:17
tension creating for our Physiology and our broken
50:21
selves. And yeah, so as we as we've sort
50:28
of midweek, you preach this message to the church, you've
50:32
challenged us to to pursue unity.
50:35
What are some like pastoral thoughts you might have for
50:38
South Anyone who's out there listening on on your longing for
50:44
this expression of what the local of the church?
50:47
So I think, I think there was a couple of things that really
50:49
stuck out to me and I phrased them in slightly different ways,
50:53
like, so why? I think because headspace is so
50:57
prioritized in the, the modern Western church, the intellectual
51:02
space of like ideas and debate, like when we live in that space
51:08
A lot, it tends to nudge us in the direction of conflict of
51:14
having to create like hard lines.
51:18
And again, we've said all along, there's some there's, there's
51:21
some definitely some some importance to theological truth
51:29
that Jesus talks about and Paul talks about and trying to land
51:34
the plane on what are the, the essentials in, in, in terms of
51:38
that triad of essentials, non essentials and all things like
51:43
there's definitely some of those things.
51:44
But if you're constantly in that headspace, you're going to find
51:46
yourself being nudged to argue, defend, and that's not always
51:52
helpful in the way of Jesus. So I kind of came up with this,
51:55
this thing at the end that I shared right at the end, I think
51:58
in both services, which is supposed to help people check
52:01
where their heart is coming from in these moments.
52:04
And I'm, I'm pretty convinced you can't defend the gospel of
52:12
the, the, the correct theology without the love that made it
52:18
possible. So like for us, there's this
52:21
sense that all of this is only possible because of what Jesus
52:26
did. And so Jesus all the way through
52:28
John is like, this is a love, this is a sacrifice thing for
52:32
me. I'm making this possible.
52:34
So the thing that he's created is like a love story in the
52:40
truest sense of the word, in a far truer sense than like a
52:45
individual personal love story is true.
52:48
Yeah, yeah. So so it's it is this big,
52:52
beautiful, strong love story when you start defending that
52:57
without loving like Jesus loved. It's always wrong, even if it's
53:02
quote UN quote right? I think you end up being wrong
53:05
even when you're right. And I think that just happens a
53:08
lot. Like like we, we feel like I
53:11
actually got a, a lovely letter from a guy in the church who
53:14
just said, you know, like, just super thankful for to see you
53:18
like holding the pressure of this job.
53:19
Well, when you still you're fairly young.
53:23
And he said, he said, you know, the, the church is the only
53:28
place that I can think of where people feel like it's their
53:33
God-given task to criticize and push.
53:38
And so like, there's this sense of I'm doing the work of God
53:42
here. Yeah, yeah.
53:43
And yet you can only do that work if it's done in love.
53:49
Yeah, which is why, like our our statement on our wall is so
53:52
powerful. Absolutely.
53:54
Because if it just said living in the way of Jesus.
53:56
Yeah. Grossly insufficient.
53:59
You can do that. Really angry.
54:02
Really angsty. Really.
54:06
It's all about getting the right data, making the right mental
54:09
assent, and you just theology. And everywhere you can just run
54:13
through everyone to make sure that the thing stays as pure as
54:18
it possibly can. But you add that second
54:20
statement, living in the way of Jesus, with the heart of Jesus,
54:24
and you're like, Oh my goodness, yeah, yeah, yeah.
54:26
Every theological conversation I have to have has to be saturated
54:32
in self denying, self giving, self sacrificial love.
54:38
OK, different conversation every time.
54:41
So much harder. So.
54:43
So the work of Jesus is constantly redeeming work.
54:48
And so like, how do we do constantly redeeming work?
54:52
Now, Jesus definitely says some really difficult things.
54:55
Yeah, yeah. But every time with Jesus, you
54:57
get this sense he's just, he's trying to win them over.
55:00
He's trying to get that sense of like, no, you need to know this
55:05
because I long to see you come and live the life that I have
55:08
for you. And even Paul, like we started
55:12
with this idea that Paul has this like, angsty, like, yeah.
55:19
You and I were joking about that earlier this week.
55:21
Yeah, but even when he writes to the Corinthian church the second
55:25
time, he comes with this sense of I, I know I said some really
55:32
hard things. The heart behind it is that
55:35
like, I'm really proud of you, really love you, and really long
55:40
for you to look like Jesus wants you to look.
55:44
And so if you find yourself in a place where you can attack and
55:51
defend what you think is the core without any need for
55:56
relationship, if you're like, I can just burn the relationship
56:01
to be able to say what I think is the truth, that that might be
56:06
a difficult spot to to justify because it doesn't feel like the
56:12
way of Jesus or yeah, wow. No, it doesn't feel like the
56:16
heart of Jesus. Yeah.
56:17
Yeah. So I think that that was to me
56:20
like where I hoped we landed that sense of, yeah, keep
56:24
defending. Like if you see a thing that you
56:26
think is like central when you're in a church community,
56:30
like I feel like we should be staying in this space, guys.
56:33
Like I feel like to move from here is to move out of the way
56:37
of Jesus. Yeah.
56:39
You should defend. That yeah, yeah, yeah.
56:41
Like talk to people, especially in leadership, push, ask
56:45
questions. If you can't do it with the love
56:48
of Jesus, then maybe there's a personal thing to deal with
56:52
there somewhere in your heart. Yeah, it's a good word.
56:55
All right. Well, thanks, Alex.
56:58
Thank you all for tuning in. Yeah, let's, let's go.
57:01
Let's be the kind of community that tries to figure out how to
57:04
walk the glorious, majestic tightrope of the way and the
57:10
heart of Jesus. All right.
57:12
Thank you again. And see you next time.
57:14
See ya. Bye.