Latest / The Knife: A True Crime Podcast / Kidnapped at Birth (Part 2 of 2)

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Kidnapped at Birth (Part 2 of 2) · The Knife: A True Crime Podcast

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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.
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Speaker 2: The claims and opinions in this podcast are those of
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Speaker 2: the speaker and do not necessarily represent The Knife or
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Speaker 2: exactly right media.
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Speaker 3: I promise my mom not only will I find her
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Speaker 3: kidnap child, which we did, but I'm going to find
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Speaker 3: the kidnapper as well, and we are so close to
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Speaker 3: that right now. Oh my God.
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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Knife. I'm Hannah Smith. I'm Patia Eton.
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Speaker 1: This is part two of a two episode series where
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Speaker 1: we're speaking with Paul Franksac. If you have not heard
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Speaker 1: part one, we recommend you go back and listen to
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Speaker 1: that now. We will be back at the end of
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Speaker 1: the episode to discuss the series. Let's get into part two.
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Speaker 1: When Paul Franzac was ten years old snooping in the
1:03
Speaker 1: attic looking for Christmas presents and he stumbled upon an
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Speaker 1: old newspaper article and was shocked to see his name.
1:11
Speaker 1: He was told that when he was only one day
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Speaker 1: old in nineteen sixty four, he was kidnapped from Michael
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Speaker 1: Ray's hospital in Chicago, and then he was missing for
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Speaker 1: almost two years before being found and returned to his parents.
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Speaker 1: It wasn't until Paul was an adult that he discovered
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Speaker 1: that he wasn't actually biologically related to his parents, Dora
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Speaker 1: and Chester Franzac. He was the baby found in New Jersey,
1:37
Speaker 1: but he was not the same baby stolen from the
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Speaker 1: Chicago hospital. He made that discovery in twenty twelve, and
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Speaker 1: it launched Paul's search for his biological family. At that point,
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Speaker 1: all he knew was that he wasn't Paul Franzac, not
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Speaker 1: the original Paul Franzac. But he didn't know who he was.
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Speaker 1: He didn't know his name, He didn't even know his
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Speaker 1: date of birth. Then, in twenty seventeen, he discovered his
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Speaker 1: original name, Jack Rosenthal, and not just that, he learned
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Speaker 1: he had a twin sister, Jill. They were born in
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Speaker 1: October of nineteen sixty three, which made him six months
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Speaker 1: older than Dora Franzac's baby son, Paul, who was kidnapped
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Speaker 1: from Chicago. Paul immediately began looking for his twin, Jill,
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Speaker 1: but no one seemed to know where she was.
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Speaker 2: What did it feel like to have gone through this
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Speaker 2: search for your own identity, but then to find that
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Speaker 2: you have a twin?
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Speaker 3: Well, I just wanted to find her. I wanted to
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Speaker 3: find out more about who I was, who my family was.
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Speaker 3: How did I end up abandon on the street in Newark,
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Speaker 3: New Jersey with a black eye.
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Speaker 2: You know, her name is Jill. So twins Jack and
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Speaker 2: Jill Rosenthal Rosenthal, Jack and Jill Rosenthal. And so was
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Speaker 2: there happiness in learning you had a twin? Or was
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Speaker 2: there sort of this neutral just and want to find
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Speaker 2: more information.
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Speaker 3: So honestly, the way I've handled this whole thing, it's like,
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Speaker 3: it's not my life. I'm an investigator investigating someone else's life,
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Speaker 3: and so to me, it was another mystery that I
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Speaker 3: had to tackle. I had to solve this part as well.
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Speaker 3: I never just sat there and thought I got a
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Speaker 3: Twinn's missing. Oh my god, this is horrible. You know,
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Speaker 3: I didn't have time for that. There's a girl out
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Speaker 3: there that's missing. I gotta find her.
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Speaker 1: When Paul says that Jill is missing, he means that
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Speaker 1: there is a record of Jill as a baby alongside Jack,
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Speaker 1: and then nothing. Baby Jack had been left in a
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Speaker 1: stroller outside a department store in Newark in nineteen sixty five,
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Speaker 1: and it seemed that Jill disappeared around the same time.
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Speaker 1: Was she left in a different stroller found by someone else.
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Speaker 1: Was there a grown woman walking around somewhere who had
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Speaker 1: no idea about her biological identity, no idea that she
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Speaker 1: was Jill Rosenthal. By this point, Paul's story had been
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Speaker 1: covered by multiple news outlets, including Twenty twenty. It had
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Speaker 1: captured the attention of many people in the nation, and
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Speaker 1: so Paul decided to ask them for help. He asked
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Speaker 1: the public for tips help him find Jill.
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Speaker 3: Pleading for information, tips, anybody out there that knows something.
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Speaker 3: I wanted to work with neck MEC, the National Center
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Speaker 3: for Missing and Exploited Children. In order to do that,
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Speaker 3: I had to open a police report, a missing person's
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Speaker 3: case on Jill, and the process of all this. When
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Speaker 3: I went to New York, I met this guy named Alex.
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Speaker 3: Alex Tresniowski. He's a writer. He worked for People magazine,
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Speaker 3: investigative writing all that good stuff. He liked my story
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Speaker 3: and he asked me if I ever thought about writing
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Speaker 3: a book. I hadn't, but people were writing into me
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Speaker 3: every day. Your story's inspiring me to start my own journey.
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Speaker 3: I wish you would write a book about this because
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Speaker 3: you could help so many people. So we decided to
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Speaker 3: form a partnership and start writing a book. We wrote
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Speaker 3: it as we were learning things. First book, The Foundling,
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Speaker 3: is written like you're on the journey with me. When
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Speaker 3: I'm digging a grave, you're digging it with me. We're
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Speaker 3: knocking on doors, we're being assaulted. Whatever, you're with us.
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Speaker 3: Because we would do something during the day, go back
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Speaker 3: and write it down, and that's what I wanted to do.
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Speaker 3: I wanted people to really appreciate the journey that we
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Speaker 3: were on in order to start their own journeys.
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Speaker 1: In Paul's first book, The Foundling, he writes about the
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Speaker 1: years he spent searching for the missing people of his past,
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Speaker 1: for his own family members, and, by extension, his identity.
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Speaker 1: He writes about becoming a father and suddenly wanting answers
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Speaker 1: about his past and his medical history, not just for
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Speaker 1: himself but also for his daughter. That doesn't mean the
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Speaker 1: task of digging up the past was easy. There were
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Speaker 1: answers he wanted that seemed determined to stay hidden forever.
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Speaker 1: He writes, I spent many dark, desperate nights staring at
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Speaker 1: a computer screen, hunting for hours without knowing what I
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Speaker 1: was hunting for. There were times it felt like I
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Speaker 1: was being pulled into a black hole, away from everything
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Speaker 1: that was good in my life and toward an endless nothing.
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Speaker 1: Moments when I could feel my mission turning into an obsession,
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Speaker 1: could feel myself becoming withdrawn, isolated, angry, Paul writes about
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Speaker 1: the toll this obsession took on his relationships, including those
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Speaker 1: with his parents, his brother, and his then wife Michelle.
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Speaker 1: But Paul could just not let it go. He had
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Speaker 1: to find answers, and eventually he did, starting with his
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Speaker 1: biological parents. But he quickly learned that finding answers does
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Speaker 1: not equate to finding out good news.
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Speaker 3: I learned quite a bit, and none of it's good.
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Speaker 3: I had two older sisters and a younger brother. For
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Speaker 3: some reason, they just wanted to get rid of Jack
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Speaker 3: and jail. They kept us in a dark room upstairs.
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Speaker 3: No food, no water, dirty diapers. I had a black eye.
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Speaker 3: Jill didn't speak. We were fortunate enough. This one lady
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Speaker 3: who baby sat us one evening when she was in
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Speaker 3: high school, remember this, and reached out to me and said,
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Speaker 3: I know who you are. I actually watched you and
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Speaker 3: your sister one night.
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Speaker 1: In the documentary The Lost Sons, that neighbor Paul mentioned
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Speaker 1: who baby sat him when she was a teenager is interviewed,
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Speaker 1: The picture she paints is bleak. She was asked a
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Speaker 1: babysit the two older girls one evening. She said she
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Speaker 1: didn't even know there were babies in the house until
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Speaker 1: she wandered upstairs and found Jack and Jill isolated in
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Speaker 1: a room with no toys, just two bare cribs. She
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Speaker 1: said they were dirty and hungry, and they looked scared.
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Speaker 1: Jack had a black eye. She cleaned them up and
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Speaker 1: took care of the twins until their parents came home
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Speaker 1: early the next morning, smelling of alcohol. She remembers their
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Speaker 1: mom being angry that she'd ever gone upstairs and interacted
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Speaker 1: with the twins at all. She came away with the
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Speaker 1: distinct impression that this type of nicole was routine in
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Speaker 1: that household. She was alarmed by what she saw, but
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Speaker 1: as a teenager, she didn't know what to do or
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Speaker 1: who to tell about it. But she'd never stopped thinking
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Speaker 1: about those twins all these years later.
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Speaker 2: How did you learn this information about your childhood? Like,
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Speaker 2: where did that information come to you from?
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Speaker 3: For meeting relatives Lenny his family, people from my mom's
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Speaker 3: side in the family, the Duncan's side, you know first
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Speaker 3: hand accounts of how things were, and you know they've
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Speaker 3: actually seen the twins and how we were treated, mistreated,
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Speaker 3: and then we vanished.
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Speaker 2: And so you had two older sisters, correct, were you
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Speaker 2: able to reach them?
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Speaker 3: So when has passed away, I got to meet the
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Speaker 3: other one.
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Speaker 2: That's right.
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Speaker 1: Paul found his living biological sister. She was older than him,
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Speaker 1: born in nineteen sixty one. This means she would have
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Speaker 1: been about four years old when Jack and his twin
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Speaker 1: Jill were abandoned. Would she remember that she once had
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Speaker 1: twin siblings who just disappeared. Paul looked up his sister's information.
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Speaker 1: She was still living in New Jersey.
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Speaker 3: I just went went to her house in Atlantic City.
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Speaker 2: You literally went to her house.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, she wouldn't answer the phone.
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Speaker 2: Oh my god, I I look.
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Speaker 3: So I'm in there in Atlantic City. I'm knocking on
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Speaker 3: her door and there's no answer, and I'm knocking. I'm
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Speaker 3: thinking all these scenarios in my head, and it's going
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Speaker 3: to shoot a shot under the door or something, you know,
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Speaker 3: you don't know what, right, So, after about ten minutes
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Speaker 3: of knocking, she finally answered the door. I said, I'm
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Speaker 3: Paul and Astley and Jack your brother. She goes, I
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Speaker 3: know who you are, Come on in, came in. We
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Speaker 3: talked for about half an hour, just told me stories
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Speaker 3: about and growing up in the family and how it
9:48
Speaker 3: was and how my parents were difficult, how when my
9:51
Speaker 3: dad passed away and no one went to his funeral,
9:54
Speaker 3: things like that, and I thought we were getting along
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Speaker 3: pretty well. It was a good conversation, so we agreed
9:59
Speaker 3: to meet the next day for lunch. Cannect. The next day,
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Speaker 3: shod and answered the door, ton't answer the phone, and
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Speaker 3: that was it. My younger brother, who I was talking
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Speaker 3: with on the phone and emailing, he called the same
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Speaker 3: day and said, I think this is a scam. I
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Speaker 3: don't care if I'm my brother or not. I want
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Speaker 3: nothing to do with you.
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Speaker 2: A scam because it's like, what were you weren't asking
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Speaker 2: them for money right exactly? And it sounds like they're
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Speaker 2: aware that your parents were difficult people and that it
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Speaker 2: was not a perfect upbringing. But did they have an
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Speaker 2: experience with your parents that they could tell you about.
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Speaker 3: My younger brother told me that it was a very
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Speaker 3: dysfunctional family. They wouldn't do anything together, there was no
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Speaker 3: love in that family. I mean, I know I dodged
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Speaker 3: many bullets. Put it that way. I'm so thankful I
10:44
Speaker 3: was raided by the franz Acs. I actually got to
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Speaker 3: interview my older sister's first husband and it was a
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Speaker 3: very eye opening interview. Just an amazing guy. He has
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Speaker 3: since passed away. But I'm really glad that I was abandoned.
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Speaker 3: How many times have you heard that?
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Speaker 2: Never? But it's like, it's so strange how this is
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Speaker 2: all played out in that I think the silver lining
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Speaker 2: is that you grew up in a household where you
11:12
Speaker 2: were wanted.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's an amazing thing I highly recommended.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's sad to think about what happened in that house.
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Speaker 3: Yeah.
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Speaker 1: The things Paul learned about the first year of his
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Speaker 1: life were not pleasant. It's a story of neglect, abuse,
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Speaker 1: and dysfunction. His investigation put him in contact with multiple
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Speaker 1: people who remembered that time. Although there is still a
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Speaker 1: lot of missing information, he also heard some alarming theories
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Speaker 1: about what might have happened to Jill.
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Speaker 3: I did hear a story from multiple people that actually
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Speaker 3: witnessed this. They came and surprised my parents one day.
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Speaker 3: They wanted to see the twins my mom was drunk.
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Speaker 3: My mom was I'm very being drinker, So you want
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Speaker 3: to see the twins. She went upstairs, she got us.
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Speaker 3: She came down the stairs. She was holding Jill and
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Speaker 3: I by our wrists. We were naked like little chickens.
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Speaker 3: Got to the third step and just dropped us on
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Speaker 3: the floor. We bounced on the floor by my uncle
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Speaker 3: said I. Rod jumped up and ran over and hugged him,
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Speaker 3: and Jill just laid on the floor. So a lot
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Speaker 3: of the people that we talked to thought that something
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Speaker 3: happened to Jill. They either murdered her or they killed
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Speaker 3: her on accident. And they couldn't explain just one twin
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Speaker 3: around the house. That's why they abandoned me.
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Speaker 1: But Paul wondered, how can you go from having twins
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Speaker 1: to suddenly not having twins? How did his parents explain
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Speaker 1: this away to their family members and neighbors.
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Speaker 3: So my parents lied to everyone in the family. With
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Speaker 3: someone who asked where the twins were, they would say,
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Speaker 3: you have the other side of the families watching them.
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Speaker 2: What did your sister and your brother say about Jill
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Speaker 2: if anything, or what they thought happened nothing when you
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Speaker 2: brought her up to them. Did they just literally say nothing.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, like they didn't want to believe it.
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Speaker 2: Denial of of me too, denial of you actually being
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Speaker 2: their brother.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, in my own, my own thought process, they're hiding something. Yeah,
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Speaker 3: because why else would you shut family out?
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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's hard to imagine doing that, Paul said. His
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Speaker 1: older sister claimed not to remember him or Jill. She
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Speaker 1: was only four years old when they disappeared, but Paul
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Speaker 1: isn't convinced that she's being totally transparent regardless she stopped
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Speaker 1: speaking with him. Paul had another older sister who died
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Speaker 1: when she was young, and he has a biological younger
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Speaker 1: brother who likely would not remember the twins anyway, but
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Speaker 1: his brother has also stopped speaking with him. Paul can't help,
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Speaker 1: but wonder do they know something more about Jill. It's
13:52
Speaker 1: also possible that digging up the past and their difficult
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Speaker 1: childhoods is just too much to ask. One thing Paul
13:59
Speaker 1: has learned on this journey is that you can never
14:01
Speaker 1: predict how someone will respond to a decade's old secret
14:05
Speaker 1: being resurfaced.
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Speaker 2: It makes me.
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Speaker 1: Think about that moment Paul told us about of his mother,
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Speaker 1: Dora Franzac, being told in nineteen sixty six that her
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Speaker 1: kidnapped son had been found in New Jersey, of all
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Speaker 1: places of the moment when the FBI placed her into
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Speaker 1: a room with an abandoned baby boy and asked her
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Speaker 1: if that was her son, Paul.
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Speaker 3: So they were put in the room, and as soon
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Speaker 3: as they brought me in, missus Fronzick was quoted as saying, Oh,
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Speaker 3: my god, that's my baby. So I asked my mom
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Speaker 3: about that. We didn't talk about this for a long time,
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Speaker 3: but just a couple of years ago she started opening
14:41
Speaker 3: up to me and actually talking about these things, which
14:43
Speaker 3: is so good because you can't keep that inside. I
14:46
Speaker 3: asked her, did you really think I was your child?
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Speaker 3: She said that the FBI was a known authority back then,
14:53
Speaker 3: so you believe them not so much anymore, I don't think,
14:56
Speaker 3: but back then you did, and they're telling you this
14:59
Speaker 3: is your child. So she said that. She could have said,
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Speaker 3: I'm not really sure. Have me be put back in
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Speaker 3: the system, and I always wonder what happened to me,
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Speaker 3: Or she could say, yeah, that's my kidnap child, because
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Speaker 3: I very well could have been. And that's what she
15:13
Speaker 3: decided to do because in her heart she wanted me
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Speaker 3: to be your kidnap child.
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Speaker 2: You don't know how someone's going to respond to difficult circumstances.
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Speaker 2: It's like some people respond very differently. And she had
15:26
Speaker 2: the world watching and she said that's my son and
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Speaker 2: accepted this. And then you have on the other end
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Speaker 2: of the spectrum siblings who are sounds like, still in
15:36
Speaker 2: pretty full denial.
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Speaker 3: You know it. It blows your mind. Our podcast, The
15:41
Speaker 3: Forensic Files, we actually help people find the ritrue identities.
15:45
Speaker 3: We've helped a lot of people, and every time we
15:48
Speaker 3: help someone, I'm always blown away by their reaction of
15:51
Speaker 3: what they want to do next. You think, oh my god, yeah,
15:54
Speaker 3: let's let's notify these people. You know, I found you
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Speaker 3: found my biological mom. Let's let's notify her. A lot
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Speaker 3: a lot of times they're like, oh, I'm fine, this
16:02
Speaker 3: is the way this is. I don't want to you know,
16:04
Speaker 3: I'm like, how can you not see it through? You know,
16:08
Speaker 3: because they might want that information too.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, everyone is so different in the way
16:13
Speaker 2: that they process their own life.
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Speaker 3: Blows your mind every time. Whenever you think you're going
16:19
Speaker 3: to get an answer and it comes out completely different.
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Speaker 3: You're like, I didn't see that coming.
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Speaker 1: How did this missing baby in Chicago, Illinois, become linked
16:32
Speaker 1: with this found baby in Newark, New Jersey. An important
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Speaker 1: factor that Paul learned is that during the initial search
16:39
Speaker 1: by law enforcement into the foundling baby's identity, part of
16:43
Speaker 1: that search included looking over records of missing children. But importantly,
16:49
Speaker 1: the Rosenthals had not reported Jack and Jill missing, so
16:53
Speaker 1: law enforcement had no idea that there were two children
16:56
Speaker 1: missing from a home right there in Newark, New Jersey.
17:00
Speaker 1: Paul also learned that the news about the foundling and
17:03
Speaker 1: the stroller in Newark was not widely reported.
17:06
Speaker 3: On so I was abandoned. Originally, the police reports that
17:11
Speaker 3: we saw in the newspaper was that I was abandoned
17:13
Speaker 3: July second, nineteen sixty five. But we've just learned that
17:18
Speaker 3: it was actually July seventh, So once again there was
17:20
Speaker 3: a discrepancy in the facts. We couldn't find anything in
17:24
Speaker 3: the newspapers. Even though the police out there said that
17:27
Speaker 3: they ran a huge campaign trying to find the parents
17:29
Speaker 3: of this abandoned child, I don't think they did so.
17:34
Speaker 3: In the newspaper articles it said that I was named
17:37
Speaker 3: Scott McKinley because I was when I was found abandoned.
17:40
Speaker 3: I was placed in a foster care house. I was
17:42
Speaker 3: there for a year. They baptized me and named me
17:45
Speaker 3: Scott McKinley, and they wanted to adopt me. The FBI
17:50
Speaker 3: showed up and said, that's the kidnap child from Chicago.
17:53
Speaker 3: We were told originally that the police kind of connected
17:57
Speaker 3: the dots between the missing child in Chicago and Scott
18:01
Speaker 3: McKinley who was abandoned in Newark, New Jersey. But we
18:05
Speaker 3: just recently found out also that it was actually a
18:07
Speaker 3: social worker that was working with someone that I decided
18:10
Speaker 3: to put that out there. So when the Rosenthals got
18:14
Speaker 3: rid of Jack and Jill, they never alerted anybody, and
18:17
Speaker 3: that wasn't in the news or anything.
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Speaker 1: If it weren't for DNA testing, Paul says, there's almost
18:23
Speaker 1: no way the dots would ever have been connected that
18:26
Speaker 1: he was born Jack Rosenthal. The search for Jill and
18:30
Speaker 1: for Paul Franzac and Paul's kidnapper continued for a time.
18:34
Speaker 1: It created a rift between Paul and his parents, Dora
18:38
Speaker 1: and Chester Franzac, but eventually they were able to repair
18:41
Speaker 1: the relationship.
18:43
Speaker 3: When I started this journey, they wanted nothing to do
18:45
Speaker 3: with it nothing. We didn't talk for a couple of years.
18:48
Speaker 3: My father passed away in twenty seventeen. After he passed away,
18:52
Speaker 3: my mom started being a little bit more open to
18:54
Speaker 3: talking about things, and I'm very grateful for that. She said,
18:58
Speaker 3: I owe you a big apology. I only thought about
19:01
Speaker 3: this from my point of view as having my child kidnapped.
19:05
Speaker 3: I never thought about you and your side and what
19:07
Speaker 3: you're going through. She said, this is fascinating and I
19:11
Speaker 3: want to be a part of this.
19:13
Speaker 2: It's really admirable, you know, I think, especially maybe in
19:17
Speaker 2: her generation, to be able to say to look inward
19:23
Speaker 2: at the most difficult thing that ever happened to you
19:27
Speaker 2: and look beyond how it impacted you. You know, not
19:31
Speaker 2: everyone can do that, and sounds like she did, and
19:35
Speaker 2: I think that's really a powerful thing. And I'm probably
19:38
Speaker 2: a gift to hear that from this person that you
19:40
Speaker 2: didn't want to hurt by finding out who you were as.
19:44
Speaker 3: Wanted to find her kidnap child.
19:46
Speaker 2: So, as your mom is opening up to you, did
19:49
Speaker 2: she ever express any doubts that she had over the
19:52
Speaker 2: years as you got older.
19:54
Speaker 3: About me being her biological son. She just said that
20:00
Speaker 3: I was a little different I mean, I wasn't a
20:03
Speaker 3: franz Ac. I don't know. How would you believe in about,
20:05
Speaker 3: you know, DNA nurture versus nature. I am a nature person.
20:11
Speaker 3: I believe that our personalities are talents. They're all in
20:14
Speaker 3: our DNA. It's not learned. And I was definitely not
20:19
Speaker 3: like they were. Yeah, I mean to me, it's an
20:21
Speaker 3: outsider looking in you would say that's probably not your
20:24
Speaker 3: biological child. But back then people were talking about that
20:26
Speaker 3: kind of stuff. DNA wasn't a thing like it is now.
20:30
Speaker 2: And how did it impact your parents because in the
20:34
Speaker 2: way that you know, you hadn't found the real Paul
20:38
Speaker 2: when you had to tell them that you were not
20:40
Speaker 2: their son. Did they speak to you about any feelings
20:44
Speaker 2: around that.
20:46
Speaker 3: We didn't talk for about two years.
20:49
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so you're trying to learn about yourself, but
20:53
Speaker 2: you're simultaneously trying to find the real Paul. Frank sat correct.
20:58
Speaker 2: How do you do it?
21:00
Speaker 3: We did it? We did it. It was a process,
21:04
Speaker 3: knocking on doors, you know, doing everything that you can.
21:08
Speaker 3: But there's also luck.
21:11
Speaker 1: Paul never stopped looking for the other Paul Franzac, his parents'
21:15
Speaker 1: biological son who was kidnapped in nineteen sixty four. Then
21:20
Speaker 1: in twenty nineteen, there was a crack in the case.
21:23
Speaker 1: He found a man named Kevin Batty.
21:26
Speaker 3: I had this person email me, I think I know
21:29
Speaker 3: who you're looking for, but this is all I'm going
21:31
Speaker 3: to tell you. It turns out that the real Paul
21:35
Speaker 3: Kevin Batty. His daughters put their DNA on a site.
21:39
Speaker 3: They matched up to Dave Franzac as Dave being their uncle,
21:43
Speaker 3: your brother. Yeah, So when that happened, we knew immediately
21:48
Speaker 3: that that was Paul. But Dave never told me this.
21:51
Speaker 3: So we found the real Paul in twenty nineteen. So
21:55
Speaker 3: we found him. I knew it was him immediately because
21:58
Speaker 3: the questions I was asking, the family names and things
22:01
Speaker 3: that were popping up. He wanted nothing to do with this.
22:05
Speaker 3: This is right when COVID was happening, and right when
22:07
Speaker 3: he found out that he was really Paul. For a Onzac,
22:10
Speaker 3: he was diagnosed with a very aggressive cancer. So he
22:13
Speaker 3: finds out he's Paul, it's COVID. He's in a small
22:17
Speaker 3: town in Michigan. They can't leave Michigan yet.
22:21
Speaker 1: Again, here was a huge discovery that was years in
22:24
Speaker 1: the making. Paul had promised his mother he would find
22:27
Speaker 1: her missing child and now he had. But any dreams
22:31
Speaker 1: of meeting up in person and some big, happy reunion
22:35
Speaker 1: turned out to be unrealistic. The world was in chaos
22:38
Speaker 1: because of COVID and the man who was raised as
22:41
Speaker 1: Kevin Beatty but who was biologically the original Paul Franzac
22:45
Speaker 1: was now fighting for his life. He had received a
22:48
Speaker 1: cancer diagnosis and the outcome did not look good. Still,
22:53
Speaker 1: Paul was determined to connect his mother Dora, to her
22:55
Speaker 1: biological son.
22:58
Speaker 3: I was able to have my mom him talk on
23:00
Speaker 3: the phone. All I wanted. I promised my mom when
23:04
Speaker 3: I started this that I once wanted her to connect
23:06
Speaker 3: with her biological son. I was hoping they could meet,
23:09
Speaker 3: but that was off the table. But the first time
23:12
Speaker 3: they talked, I was actually in Chicago with my daughter.
23:14
Speaker 3: We're visiting, and the phone rang and I heard her
23:17
Speaker 3: pick up the phone and say, hi, Kevin. My daughter
23:20
Speaker 3: and I are high fiving. Oh my god, they're talking.
23:22
Speaker 3: This is so amazing, you know. And that's all he wanted.
23:26
Speaker 3: I wanted them to connect, and they were able to connect.
23:30
Speaker 3: My mom got to speak with him a few more times.
23:32
Speaker 3: He passed away a day before his birthday, in April
23:35
Speaker 3: twenty fifth, twenty twenty. His birthday was Abril twenty sixth.
23:39
Speaker 3: My mom got to say goodbye to him.
23:41
Speaker 1: Paul's mother, Dora Franzac, participated in the documentary. She says
23:46
Speaker 1: that Kevin Beatty, her long lost biological son, called her
23:50
Speaker 1: to wish her a merry Christmas, and they both hoped
23:53
Speaker 1: they could meet in person someday. Sadly that did not
23:56
Speaker 1: happen because Kevin passed away shortly after. Laura also expressed
24:01
Speaker 1: gratitude that she at least got to speak to her
24:03
Speaker 1: son on the phone after all of those years, and
24:06
Speaker 1: she said that she was grateful to have raised Paul
24:09
Speaker 1: Jack Rosenthal, who she loves and is her son despite
24:12
Speaker 1: the DNA results. Interestingly, Kevin Beatty's obituary lists his date
24:18
Speaker 1: of birth as March fourteenth, nineteen sixty four, although we
24:22
Speaker 1: now know that he was actually born on April twenty sixth,
24:26
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty four, at Michael Ray's Hospital in Chicago, to
24:30
Speaker 1: Dora and Chester Franzac, who he was with for just
24:33
Speaker 1: one day before being stolen away. Did he accept that
24:39
Speaker 1: he was this other person?
24:42
Speaker 3: He had to, but I don't think he really cared.
24:45
Speaker 3: I mean, he was just trying to survive.
24:47
Speaker 2: What did he believe about his life until you brought
24:51
Speaker 2: him this information?
24:53
Speaker 3: So he was raised by a woman named Lorraine Fountain,
24:56
Speaker 3: who told him that his father was a pro football
24:58
Speaker 3: player and just just left left the family.
25:01
Speaker 2: Any ties with Lorraine to this nurse that wasn't a nurse.
25:07
Speaker 3: So Lorraine Fountain was a career criminal. We found so
25:11
Speaker 3: many police records, so many things on this. She was
25:14
Speaker 3: a grifter con person since she was like late teen's,
25:18
Speaker 3: early twenties, working for companies and bezzling money, forging checks.
25:23
Speaker 3: She was put in prison.
25:25
Speaker 2: Is she alive when you reach out to Kevin and
25:29
Speaker 2: let him know that he is Paul?
25:31
Speaker 3: No, she passed away before that. Unfortunately.
25:35
Speaker 1: At first, Paul wondered if Kevin's mom Lorraine was the
25:39
Speaker 1: woman who posed as a nurse and kidnapped baby Paul
25:42
Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty four. Did she go into that hospital
25:46
Speaker 1: looking for a baby she could take and raise as
25:48
Speaker 1: her own. The more Paul learned, the more he has
25:52
Speaker 1: become convinced that it was not Lorraine who kidnapped baby Paul.
25:56
Speaker 1: But he says that he is close to cracking the case.
26:00
Speaker 2: Did she fit the physical description of the nurse.
26:03
Speaker 3: So we didn't think she did it. First, we had
26:07
Speaker 3: this other person of interest that we just cleared because
26:10
Speaker 3: we got another first hand account on this person that
26:12
Speaker 3: we thought was the kidnapper. But now I'm starting to
26:16
Speaker 3: think that she might actually fit the profile. But I
26:20
Speaker 3: believe she was paid to kidnap that child. There's mob
26:23
Speaker 3: ties in Chicago. She was a high priced escort for
26:27
Speaker 3: the mob, numerous arrests for prostitution and mob run hotels.
26:32
Speaker 2: This story has everything, truly, but like she's a career criminal.
26:38
Speaker 2: So the idea is that either she bought or quote
26:43
Speaker 2: adopted Kevin, or she was behind it from the beginning.
26:49
Speaker 3: I think she was either. If she didn't do the kidnapping,
26:52
Speaker 3: she was paid to raise Paul because whoever wanted that
26:55
Speaker 3: child didn't realize the heat that was going to come
26:57
Speaker 3: across from that kidnapping, and for some reason they didn't
27:02
Speaker 3: just get rid of the baby. Thank god, they paid
27:05
Speaker 3: someone else to raise him.
27:07
Speaker 2: Did you get any sort of reaction from Kevin to
27:12
Speaker 2: this news?
27:13
Speaker 3: At first, disbelief, But the proof is in the DNA.
27:18
Speaker 3: His daughters wanted nothing to do with me. They wanted
27:21
Speaker 3: the story to go away. I sent Kevin a copy
27:23
Speaker 3: of my book and a copy of his birthtificate. I
27:27
Speaker 3: was told secondhand that he actually read the book, he
27:30
Speaker 3: enjoyed it and let someone else read it. I think
27:33
Speaker 3: if he wasn't dealing with COVID and the cancer, I
27:36
Speaker 3: think it might have been a different possibility.
27:39
Speaker 2: What did he do for a living? What was his
27:41
Speaker 2: life like?
27:42
Speaker 3: He was a machinist, just like Chester.
27:45
Speaker 2: Isn't that amazing?
27:47
Speaker 3: Yeah, DNA truly and.
27:51
Speaker 2: His daughters have they since that initial outreach? Have they
27:56
Speaker 2: had any sort of change of heart about being in
27:59
Speaker 2: contact with you?
28:00
Speaker 3: Nope, none at all. I believe that they wanted to
28:06
Speaker 3: preserve this image of their grandma, even though we have
28:09
Speaker 3: so much proof that she was a horrible person, just
28:13
Speaker 3: a career criminal, just not a good person. I mean,
28:16
Speaker 3: she's raising a kidnapped child with a fake pertificate, you know,
28:19
Speaker 3: I mean, come on.
28:27
Speaker 1: There are still ongoing mysteries in Paul's story. One of
28:31
Speaker 1: those is Jill. Paul hopes and believes that Jill is
28:36
Speaker 1: still alive and out there waiting to be found. He
28:39
Speaker 1: discusses his search for Jill on his podcast The Franzac Files.
28:45
Speaker 2: So what are you continuing to do as far as
28:48
Speaker 2: your story, what are you hoping to close the loop on?
28:53
Speaker 3: Okay, so right now we're still actively pursuing finding Jill.
28:57
Speaker 3: I don't know if you believe in psychics and all that,
28:59
Speaker 3: but I do. And I've talked to quite a few
29:01
Speaker 3: who had no idea who I was, and they also
29:02
Speaker 3: that I've got a part of me that is out
29:05
Speaker 3: there that hasn't crossed over, which I'm assuming is Jill.
29:09
Speaker 2: You're sure they don't know who you are?
29:12
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, how could they write that? Yeah?
29:19
Speaker 2: Sorry about that? No, I mean I I was. Yeah,
29:22
Speaker 2: it's fair to say I'm very skeptical of psychics, but
29:24
Speaker 2: I also have no judgment about people seeking answers unconventionally.
29:30
Speaker 2: I mean, there's a lot of things about the universe.
29:32
Speaker 2: Ide I'm sure I don't understand. Okay, So you're trying
29:36
Speaker 2: to find Jill. That is priority one, Yes, And the
29:40
Speaker 2: kidnapper and the kidnapper.
29:42
Speaker 3: I promised my mom Dora Forranzac, not only will I
29:46
Speaker 3: find her kidnap child, which we did, I'm going to
29:49
Speaker 3: find the kidnapper as well, and we are so close
29:53
Speaker 3: to that right now. Oh my god.
29:54
Speaker 2: And you think you're zeroing in.
29:57
Speaker 3: Yes, we're so close.
30:00
Speaker 2: Do you have someone in mind? No spoilers, and you
30:04
Speaker 2: still go by Paul frong Zach, but you prefer to
30:07
Speaker 2: be called Jack or illegally, what is your name? Can
30:09
Speaker 2: I ask you?
30:11
Speaker 3: Yeah? I mean legally, I'm still Jack Thomas Rosenthal. Right,
30:15
Speaker 3: it's like both, I'm still Paul Joseph Franzac, right, but
30:19
Speaker 3: Paul Joseph Franzi passed away, So I feel like I
30:22
Speaker 3: have a dead man's name.
30:24
Speaker 2: Right because Kevin Beatty is Paul and he is passed.
30:27
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I've got my certificate, Jack Thomas Rosenthal, I've
30:33
Speaker 3: got Paul Joseph's pertificate.
30:35
Speaker 2: I mean I could be anybody. Yeah, yeah. Wow. It's
30:41
Speaker 2: definitely a story that is stranger than fiction. You really
30:44
Speaker 2: couldn't write this one, and I think it's awesome that
30:47
Speaker 2: you're pursuing it as heavily as you are and helping
30:51
Speaker 2: people along the way who are maybe finding themselves in
30:54
Speaker 2: a similar situation of not knowing who they really are,
30:58
Speaker 2: because that could be a very lonely place.
31:01
Speaker 3: It is. As humans, all we have is our identity.
31:04
Speaker 3: If you don't have that, what do you really have?
31:07
Speaker 3: And if any of your listeners out there have any
31:09
Speaker 3: questions about their identity or know someone that does and
31:11
Speaker 3: they're looking for help. We don't charge. We do everything
31:15
Speaker 3: for free at the Forensis files. Check us out.
31:18
Speaker 2: Okay, great, well, thank you so much.
31:24
Speaker 1: What a whirlwind of a story. There were so many
31:27
Speaker 1: twists and turns. I kept thinking this is going to
31:31
Speaker 1: be done, and then it would be like another hurdle, I.
31:34
Speaker 2: Know, and it's ongoing, which is also as a listener
31:39
Speaker 2: exciting to have gotten this far and know that he's
31:43
Speaker 2: still working on figuring out who that nurse or fake
31:47
Speaker 2: nurse was that took him. But I mean and looking
31:51
Speaker 2: for his twin sister and looking for his twin sister. Yeah,
31:55
Speaker 2: I mean, that part of the story wrecked me because
32:00
Speaker 2: also just thinking about, you know, Paul lived for so
32:04
Speaker 2: much of his life without knowing who he really was,
32:06
Speaker 2: and then struggling to find biological connections, and to think
32:09
Speaker 2: that all that time he had a twin, which just
32:12
Speaker 2: from what I've heard about being a twin, it's like
32:14
Speaker 2: the closest connection you could have.
32:17
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's wild. The twin part was really surprising to me.
32:21
Speaker 1: You hear about people discovering family members now more with
32:25
Speaker 1: like DNA databases, and oftentimes we hear about the sparkly
32:30
Speaker 1: stories of like, oh my gosh, I found a long
32:32
Speaker 1: lost sibling and we've reconnected, and obviously that's beautiful, but
32:36
Speaker 1: you know, the reality is, you don't know who you're
32:38
Speaker 1: going to find. And I thought that Paul's approach was great,
32:42
Speaker 1: like he really is committed to finding out the truth.
32:45
Speaker 1: But also he was like, I'm glad that I was
32:48
Speaker 1: raised by the family who raised me. Yeah.
32:51
Speaker 2: And on the note of not knowing what you're going
32:53
Speaker 2: to find, you know, it's interesting. I thought, listening to
32:58
Speaker 2: Paul's story when he was years old and finding this out,
33:01
Speaker 2: what a mystery, what an adventure. I think that's how
33:04
Speaker 2: I would have felt as a ten year old. But then,
33:07
Speaker 2: you know, you get older and you realize, like there
33:09
Speaker 2: are parts of people's lives they truly want to leave behind. Yeah,
33:14
Speaker 2: and for him to be pursuing, you know, the truth
33:17
Speaker 2: and find out about his actual family shouldn't say actual family,
33:21
Speaker 2: but his biological family. You know that his older sister
33:25
Speaker 2: just sort of ghosted shut the door, like was done
33:28
Speaker 2: with it. I mean, I don't know her story and
33:31
Speaker 2: everything she went through and maybe she has her reasons,
33:34
Speaker 2: but just there are people who want more information and
33:37
Speaker 2: there are people who just want to leave things in
33:41
Speaker 2: the past. Yeah, And I thought it was also just
33:45
Speaker 2: really touching that one of Paul's immediate goals upon learning
33:48
Speaker 2: that he actually wasn't who he was always told that
33:52
Speaker 2: he was, was finding his mother, Dora's missing biological son.
33:59
Speaker 1: Yeah, because the baby that was kidnapped in the hospital, Paul,
34:04
Speaker 1: the original Paul, was never returned.
34:08
Speaker 2: Was never returned to her. And then the fact that
34:11
Speaker 2: the Paul Jack Frankzac that we interviewed, who was actually
34:14
Speaker 2: Jack Rosenthal, was able to connect Dora to her missing
34:18
Speaker 2: son shortly before he passed. I mean that is like
34:22
Speaker 2: an indescribable feeling. What a special gift to give her
34:26
Speaker 2: and maybe to give him, I don't know, but like,
34:30
Speaker 2: how amazing is that. And something that we didn't really
34:34
Speaker 2: have time to cover in the episode, but that I
34:36
Speaker 2: think is important is that hospital security has changed so
34:41
Speaker 2: drastically since the nineteen sixties, and some of those changes
34:45
Speaker 2: were a result of the Paul frank Sac abduction. And
34:50
Speaker 2: you know, in this story, baby Paul was abducted by
34:54
Speaker 2: a nurse, well not a nurse someone who dressed as
34:56
Speaker 2: a nurse, who walked into the hospital and walked out
35:00
Speaker 2: with the baby.
35:01
Speaker 1: And you cannot imagine someone being able to do that today.
35:05
Speaker 2: No way. And she wasn't wearing a nurse's cap. But
35:08
Speaker 2: beyond that, no, you know, that was the only like
35:10
Speaker 2: moment of huh, I wonder. So today I looked it up,
35:14
Speaker 2: and I mean, I've experienced some of this, having had
35:16
Speaker 2: a baby in a hospital. I've seen it all in
35:19
Speaker 2: practice too. You have to sign in at a reception desk.
35:23
Speaker 2: You get a bracelet on your wrist. I believe my
35:25
Speaker 2: husband also had a bracelet on his wrist, but I
35:27
Speaker 2: think that's common, and then you have to show your identification.
35:31
Speaker 2: The nurses have to use access cards to get in
35:34
Speaker 2: and out of the maternity ward. Babies cannot be transported
35:38
Speaker 2: in a nurse's arms. A nurse can't just pick up
35:41
Speaker 2: a baby and carry the baby down the railway. Yeah,
35:43
Speaker 2: that needs to be in a hospital bassinette. You know.
35:46
Speaker 2: I'm sure there are emergency situations and all kinds of exceptions,
35:50
Speaker 2: but that is the standard practice. You know. We also
35:54
Speaker 2: now that it's we've obviously jumped forward many decades since
35:57
Speaker 2: the sixties, but we have video survey's, you know, everything
36:01
Speaker 2: is under surveillance as it should be in a hospital.
36:04
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely. So this reminded me when you're talking about
36:08
Speaker 1: these mishaps that happened at hospitals in maternity wards before
36:14
Speaker 1: sort of modern surveillance. And did you ever listen to
36:18
Speaker 1: there was a great this American Life episode that has
36:20
Speaker 1: always stuck with me. It's called Switched at Birth and
36:24
Speaker 1: it's about two baby girls born in the same hospital
36:27
Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty one, and the infants were accidentally switched
36:34
Speaker 1: and sent home with the wrong families. So they were
36:36
Speaker 1: both born, you know, taken to the nursery and somehow
36:41
Speaker 1: the hospital's staff when returning the baby to the mother
36:45
Speaker 1: the parents, they switched them. They were born like at
36:48
Speaker 1: such the same time, and they were never unswitched.
36:53
Speaker 2: When did they realize that they had been switched.
36:56
Speaker 1: It's interesting because they interview the adult women in this episode.
37:01
Speaker 1: It's so good, but later one of them like talks
37:05
Speaker 1: to her mother who raised her, who's not her biological mother,
37:08
Speaker 1: And it's also like it was the fifties, you know,
37:11
Speaker 1: such a different time. That mother said within like a
37:14
Speaker 1: day or two bringing that babe home. She was like,
37:17
Speaker 1: this is not my baby. I know, this isn't my baby.
37:20
Speaker 1: And she told her husband something happened, this is not
37:24
Speaker 1: my baby. We need to go back to the hospital.
37:27
Speaker 1: And her husband refused to do it because he was like,
37:31
Speaker 1: that would embarrass the doctor. We're not going to make
37:33
Speaker 1: a scuffle about it.
37:35
Speaker 2: Ah. Oh my gosh, no, can you believe that? Wow?
37:40
Speaker 1: And so both of these people were raised in these
37:42
Speaker 1: families that were not their biological families and didn't discover
37:45
Speaker 1: it until they were adults. It's so wild.
37:48
Speaker 2: That is the stuff of nightmares. I mean, my kid,
37:53
Speaker 2: she didn't even leave my room, Like there was no
37:55
Speaker 2: nursery that she was being sent to. And maybe some
37:58
Speaker 2: I think some hospitals still offer that, but less and
38:01
Speaker 2: less and yeah, all of her testing right in front
38:04
Speaker 2: of me. Yeah, I mean even shortly after I gave birth.
38:09
Speaker 2: There she had fluid in her lungs. They rushed someone
38:11
Speaker 2: into the room to get the fluid out. It wasn't
38:15
Speaker 2: They still didn't take her anywhere because she didn't yet
38:17
Speaker 2: have a little tag, yeah, a little bracelet on her
38:20
Speaker 2: ankle or whatever. Attack. Yeah, it's so different. Now, that's crazy.
38:25
Speaker 2: I have to listen to that episode. I mean, I've
38:27
Speaker 2: listened to so many episodes of This American Land. I
38:29
Speaker 2: mean they're so good. But yeah, I'll have to check
38:33
Speaker 2: that one out. I mean, you hear about it these
38:35
Speaker 2: days in the world of sometimes fertility treatments and embryos
38:41
Speaker 2: and that.
38:42
Speaker 1: Is there was there was an article about it recently,
38:47
Speaker 1: very recently that was heartbreaking.
38:51
Speaker 2: There was another one a couple of weeks ago. It
38:53
Speaker 2: was a couple that, you know, they thought they were
38:56
Speaker 2: using their own embryo and it was not their embryo,
39:00
Speaker 2: and it was very apparent that that was not their
39:03
Speaker 2: embryo when the child was born.
39:04
Speaker 1: So this person is pregnant, they go through all of pregnancy,
39:08
Speaker 1: they deliver, and then look at this baby and it's like,
39:10
Speaker 1: that's not my baby because I'm guessing it's a different ethnicity.
39:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a white couple and the baby is not white,
39:17
Speaker 2: and it's very obviously not their biological baby. But I'm
39:21
Speaker 2: not so familiar with story. But last I read they're
39:23
Speaker 2: actually keeping the baby. Well yeah, well, I think sometimes
39:27
Speaker 2: the parents who created that embryo can contest it and
39:31
Speaker 2: say no, and I think that has happened. Wow. Yeah,
39:37
Speaker 2: So devastating wild Yeah, oh my gosh. Yeah, but you
39:41
Speaker 2: know the feeling of carrying a baby. There's a lot
39:44
Speaker 2: of ways to go about being a parent, but pregnancy,
39:48
Speaker 2: you know, whether it's your embryo or not, I mean
39:52
Speaker 2: it really I don't know, at least for me, Like
39:54
Speaker 2: I felt very connected and this is my biological child.
39:58
Speaker 2: But I still think that there's just something about knowing
40:01
Speaker 2: your body is caring for something and building something. Yeah,
40:06
Speaker 2: it's an intense connection. Yeah, I think it would be
40:09
Speaker 2: so trippy to go through that and then have this
40:12
Speaker 2: baby and it's not your biological baby, which you thought
40:16
Speaker 2: it was, but in some senses and in many senses,
40:19
Speaker 2: maybe it's your baby. Yeah.
40:21
Speaker 1: So I don't know that it really matters, but it
40:23
Speaker 1: would feel like a very bizarre experience. I can't even imagine.
40:29
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. Yeah, just the fear, like what if
40:31
Speaker 2: the other couple wants the baby? Yeah.
40:34
Speaker 1: In the article that we both thought, I can't remember
40:36
Speaker 1: what it's called. In that situation, it happened to two
40:40
Speaker 1: couples and their embryos were swapped right right, and they
40:44
Speaker 1: both ended up getting pregnant and like, you know, having
40:47
Speaker 1: a baby, and so in that scenario. I think they
40:50
Speaker 1: end up switching the babies.
40:52
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh.
40:53
Speaker 1: But it's still just like this very emotional thing. But
40:58
Speaker 1: that's not always the case, right, Like you might get
41:00
Speaker 1: someone else's embryo, but then it's not like your embryo's
41:02
Speaker 1: out there as a baby form, right whatever.
41:05
Speaker 2: Like that was more a coincidences. Yeah, yeah, gosh, so intense. Yeah.
41:10
Speaker 2: That article I think was in the New York Times,
41:12
Speaker 2: the one that we read about and I look it up. Yeah,
41:15
Speaker 2: I should look it up. It's like, so there's so.
41:18
Speaker 1: Many, there's so many. Oh god, Yeah, it is the
41:22
Speaker 1: New York Times. It's called an IVF mix Up and
41:25
Speaker 1: an Impossible Choice. It's a really interesting read. If you
41:29
Speaker 1: are interested to go check it out. Well that was
41:31
Speaker 1: our two parter. Thank you so much to Paul Jack
41:34
Speaker 1: Frank Sach for speaking with us. What a story. Thanks
41:38
Speaker 1: for listening. We'll be back next week. If you have
41:43
Speaker 1: a story for us, we would love to hear it.
41:45
Speaker 1: Our email is The Knife at exactly rightmedia dot com,
41:48
Speaker 1: or you can follow us on Instagram at the Knife
41:50
Speaker 1: Podcast or a Blue Sky at the Knife Podcast. This
41:53
Speaker 1: has been an Exactly Right production hosted and produced by
41:56
Speaker 1: me Hannah Smith and me patia E.
41:59
Speaker 2: Our producers Am Bryfogel and Alexis Samarosi.
42:02
Speaker 1: This episode was mixed by Tom Bryfogel.
42:04
Speaker 2: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.
42:06
Speaker 1: Our theme music is by Birds in the Airport.
42:09
Speaker 2: Artwork fi Vanessa Lilac.
42:11
Speaker 1: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia Hardstark and Daniell Kramer.