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Interview Only w/ John Kasich - Why Do Moderates Keep Losing The Argument? · The Chuck ToddCast

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  Speaker 1: This episode of The Chuck Podcast is brought to you
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  Speaker 1: by Chapter. Now, almost everything you hear about medicare is
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: somebody quietly trying to steer you somewhere, and you're skeptical
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: of that, as you should be.
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: I get it.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, there's a federal lawsuit going on right now
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: over exactly this companies that branded themselves as unbiased while
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  Speaker 1: allegedly pointing people toward whatever would pay them the most,
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: as some sort of broker. So if your default is
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: to distrust everyone in this space, honestly, I get it.
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  Speaker 1: I'm a bit distrustful these days myself. That's the whole
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: reason I want to tell you about Chapter. They're independent
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: medicare advisors whose entire model is that their advisors are
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  Speaker 1: not paid to push any one plan. They're just trying
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: to help. Yes, there's compensation that goes with it, but
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: it's across the board is what they're trying to do.
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: At the end of the day, they're advocating for you.
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: They're not the insurance companies themselves. They're an actual person
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: who actually goes through your doctors, your prescriptions needs, and
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: then compares them to every single plan available to find
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: the best one. That will work for you and hopefully
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  Speaker 1: send save you a couple of dollars too. And here's
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  Speaker 1: the part that sets Chapter apart. They don't disappear once
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  Speaker 1: you've been in a role. They will keep advocating for you.
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  Speaker 1: They're kind of like almost like a concierge service. You're
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  Speaker 1: just there. I need help. You're like customer service. You
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  Speaker 1: know the plan, you know, help me navigate this again.
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  Speaker 1: So you ever get hit with a wrongful medical bill,
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: they'll help you fight it. They want to stay an
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  Speaker 1: advocate for you even after you've done this. So look,
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  Speaker 1: I get it. I think there's all sorts of space.
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  Speaker 1: You see a lot of people are throwing themselves in
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  Speaker 1: this healthcare space. When I like about these Chapter folks,
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  Speaker 1: I've spent time with them. This is a very transparent organization.
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  Speaker 1: It is Medicare, and all of its affiliated stuff can
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  Speaker 1: be very confusing. The whole point of this is to
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  Speaker 1: make this easier and less confusing. Okay, so look, take
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  Speaker 1: this cupicism you already have in all of this, pointed
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  Speaker 1: out your own plan for twenty minutes. It's free, there's
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  Speaker 1: no pressure, and then call Chapter today at nine eight
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  Speaker 1: zero seven three four three nine eight five. Well, joining
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  Speaker 1: me now is somebody who's should be a familiar face
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  Speaker 1: to you, because I think I've had him on my hye.
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  Speaker 1: I'd like to think we regularly now do this about
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  Speaker 1: once a quarter. It's my friend John Kasik. You may
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  Speaker 1: know him as the former governor of Ohio. You may
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  Speaker 1: know him as a former member of Congress, former whatever
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  Speaker 1: we're all about. We're a couple of guys with a
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  Speaker 1: lot of formers, and we're a lot of and we're
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  Speaker 1: but neither one of us believe we're formally doing anything.
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  Speaker 1: We're just trying to do And I think as you,
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  Speaker 1: as I share all the time about our conversations, I
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  Speaker 1: always say, you know, at the end of the day,
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  Speaker 1: both I think John and I are in the same
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  Speaker 1: place by trying to figure out how can we get
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  Speaker 1: people speaking again. And John, I got to tell you
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  Speaker 1: about an organization I was just at earlier this month.
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  Speaker 1: You would love it if the organizations called Recenter Indiana,
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  Speaker 1: and it's all about civic engagement, depolarization, and the whole
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  Speaker 1: point is not centrism. I love their focus, which is
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  Speaker 1: saying we just want every local politician to put Indiana's
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  Speaker 1: priorities before their ideology, and that's what they mean by recenter.
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  Speaker 1: And I have to tell you now Indiana. You know
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  Speaker 1: Indiana well, obviously as a border state of yours, they've
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  Speaker 1: always had a culture. It may be a conservative state,
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  Speaker 1: but they are not a what I call a pugilistic state.
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  Speaker 1: It's kind of like Utah. They don't like this style
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  Speaker 1: of politics. And this group really revolted over the redistricting,
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  Speaker 1: you know, basically the outside.
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  Speaker 2: I was really impressed with this group.
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  Speaker 1: They got a great turnout and they're really trying to
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  Speaker 1: It's about trying to help educate young voters, increase participation
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  Speaker 1: with young voters, but really try to improve civic conversation.
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  Speaker 1: And it strikes me that there's a lot of desire
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  Speaker 1: out there for this. I know you hear this, I
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  Speaker 1: hear this, and yet all the coverage is about how
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  Speaker 1: divided we are.
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  Speaker 2: You know. Yeah, I'm not so sure that I agree
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  Speaker 2: with that.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, you don't share that optimism right now.
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  Speaker 2: Well, here's the problem, Chuck, I mean, it's in my opinion,
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  Speaker 2: it's like, if you're a Republican and you go you
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  Speaker 2: want to really have a good conversation, well, then would
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  Speaker 2: you vote for a Democrat. Oh, I wouldn't do that,
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  Speaker 2: are you kidding? And vice versa. So we hear people
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  Speaker 2: say this, but at the end, when the bell goes off,
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  Speaker 2: people go to their corners. And I don't want to
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  Speaker 2: be I don't want to be pessimistic, but I also
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  Speaker 2: don't want to be you know, pie in the sky.
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  Speaker 2: And I think there's a lot of work to be done,
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  Speaker 2: which you're trying to do and I'm trying to do.
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  Speaker 1: In mind, I agree that there's a ton of work,
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  Speaker 1: and I think, you know, the voters keep rejecting both parties,
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  Speaker 1: and neither party sees it yet as an indictment. They
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  Speaker 1: just see it as an opportunity to win the next time.
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  Speaker 1: And that's what I don't know how we change that mindset.
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  Speaker 2: Well, how do you say they're rejecting both parties every
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  Speaker 2: election cycle they vote out the party that's in power.
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  Speaker 1: And they've done it every we have, not every single
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  Speaker 1: every two years john this century, but two four and
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  Speaker 1: twelve were reelected. Everything in on the federal level. But
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  Speaker 1: if you go now, I can get right, you go,
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  Speaker 1: we can go back twenty fourteen, New Senate, twenty sixteen,
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  Speaker 1: New White House, twenty eighteen, new House twenty twenty, new
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  Speaker 1: White House, new new Senate twenty twenty two, new House
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  Speaker 1: twenty twenty four, new presidents that you see where like
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  Speaker 1: we're voters, I say, we the voters only have one
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  Speaker 1: tool to express themselves, the elector of the American people,
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  Speaker 1: and it's they're voting. And if you don't like your options,
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  Speaker 1: then you just vote out right, and we keep voting out.
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  Speaker 1: We're going to have over one hundred new members of
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  Speaker 1: Congress this cycle, jump only for.
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  Speaker 2: The third time.
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  Speaker 1: Ninety two was the last time we had over one
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  Speaker 1: hundred new members of Congress.
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  Speaker 2: To vote.
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  Speaker 1: Let me ask you this, though, for something new, they
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  Speaker 1: just don't necessarily know what they want.
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  Speaker 2: They want a bout a leadership. Let's let's drill down
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  Speaker 2: a little deeper on that. Is that because people who
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  Speaker 2: are Republicans are voting for Democrats and Democrats voting for
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  Speaker 2: Republicans or is it about turnout? In other words, you
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  Speaker 2: know you're going to see the Democrats all fired up
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  Speaker 2: this time and the Republicans are going to sit at home.
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  Speaker 1: But I would argue there's door number three that we
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  Speaker 1: always leave out in this conversation, and I totally agree
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  Speaker 1: with you about the ebbs and flows of base turnout,
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  Speaker 1: and there's no doubt this cycle it's the left that's
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  Speaker 1: exciting and they're going to show up. And I doubt
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  Speaker 1: the Trump voter shows up. I think we all see
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  Speaker 1: that coming. But it's the forty to rowing of forty
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  Speaker 1: percent who won't, who are uncomfortable identifying in either party.
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  Speaker 1: And you know this, right, you know independence Essentially in
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  Speaker 1: twenty four they looked Republican. This cycle they look Democrat
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  Speaker 1: to me. They're not waffling, they're essentially voting against. The
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  Speaker 1: independent voter doesn't vote for, they vote against these days,
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  Speaker 1: and that's where that's the difference I think between Look,
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  Speaker 1: we've always had the ebbs and flows of base turnout,
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  Speaker 1: that hasn't changed. But you have this larger chunk of
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  Speaker 1: voters that's growing in and that's the question. Are they
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  Speaker 1: in the middle or are they just rejecting these institutions?
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  Speaker 1: But maybe ideologically they're all over the place. And I
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  Speaker 1: think that is why this forty percent has been so
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  Speaker 1: hard to organize.
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  Speaker 2: If you will, well, look, you said something that I can't.
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  Speaker 2: I keep repeating it, and I hope it's right. And
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  Speaker 2: that is it took six presidentinential elections to get beyond Lincoln. Yeah, okay,
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  Speaker 2: well it didn't take one, it didn't take two. It
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  Speaker 2: took six. Now, I know the country's not as divided
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  Speaker 2: today as it was, but that's that. See, you're you're
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  Speaker 2: getting me convoluted here because on one hand, you're telling
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  Speaker 2: me something about how long it took for people to wait. Well,
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  Speaker 2: I agree that we do.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, I'll give you another fun little you know
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  Speaker 1: how long it took from the first meeting in Seneca
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  Speaker 1: Falls for the women to get the right to vote
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  Speaker 1: in eighteen forty eight to nineteen twenty, right, Like, that's
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  Speaker 1: seventy two years. So not every project happens overnight in
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  Speaker 1: this country.
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  Speaker 2: Well, look, we would both love for people to Well,
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  Speaker 2: here's another thing, Chuck, and I hope you will agree
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  Speaker 2: with this. I wrote something about this, and that is
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  Speaker 2: this socialist the Democrats socialis us are actually talking about
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  Speaker 2: things that people care about. I don't mean the prisons
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  Speaker 2: or that other craft. But when they start talking about
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  Speaker 2: affordability and they start talking about the gap between the
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  Speaker 2: reach and poor, and you know, I don't get a
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  Speaker 2: fair shot. All that kind of rhetoric. Okay, all that
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  Speaker 2: stuff that's touching voters. And what's more interesting than just
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  Speaker 2: the fact that they're resonating with voters, they are electrifying
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  Speaker 2: their supporters who are now out there doing something that
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  Speaker 2: I used to do, that we used to do in
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  Speaker 2: this country. And you know what it is. It's door
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: to door campaigning. It's face to face. It's face to face.
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  Speaker 2: And so you don't, yeah, let me finish. So the
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  Speaker 2: moderates what I say about the Democrat moderates. In fact,
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  Speaker 2: I talked to a Democrat governor about this. I said,
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  Speaker 2: why are you people being silent? Why don't you say
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  Speaker 2: that what the socialists are saying makes sense. It's just
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  Speaker 2: their solutions are crazy. Let me tell you what I
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  Speaker 2: would do. But you don't hear them. They're quiet. It's
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  Speaker 2: just like the anti med A crowd. We know, okay,
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  Speaker 2: Trump hit a nerve. Let me finish this thought for
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  Speaker 2: our listeners. Trump hit a nerve. I warned them about
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  Speaker 2: this in twenty sixteen. It's it's negative populism. But yet
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  Speaker 2: the normal Republicans didn't say anything to say, no, that's
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  Speaker 2: just nonsense, right, Like we're going to balance the budget
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  Speaker 2: through waste, spad and abuse. You know, well, I look
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  Speaker 2: at it this way.
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  Speaker 1: If you if you see two if you're not feeling well,
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  Speaker 1: and you go and you see two doctors, yeah, and
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  Speaker 1: one doctor says, yeah, I think there's something wrong here,
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: and the other doctor says, I can't find anything wrong. Well,
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  Speaker 1: which doctor are you going to go back to? The
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: one that like? Now?
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  Speaker 2: That's it?
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: They They may end up prescribing some cuckoo bird cure. Right,
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: you beaches on George Washington, Right, yeah, right, but you're
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: good at but you trust the person that shares the diagnosis.
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  Speaker 1: So here's here's where I come down on that socialism issue.
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  Speaker 1: Take Grand Rapids. I'm obsessed with what happened in Grand Rapids.
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  Speaker 1: Abdul l sied, I don't know.
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  Speaker 2: What happened there. You mean in the primary, the primary.
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  Speaker 1: First of all, it was this highest turnout ever that
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  Speaker 1: Democrats got in Kent County, which is Grand Rapids. They
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  Speaker 1: got over and they just crushed. This is, of course
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  Speaker 1: Gerald Ford's home. This was a county that met Romney carried,
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  Speaker 1: county that Trump still carried by sixteen, doesn't carry it
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  Speaker 1: by twenty. We know that in the Michigan primary in
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  Speaker 1: twenty twenty, Biden narrowly defeated Sanders, the so called you know,
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  Speaker 1: sort of pragmatist versus versus socialists. Abdul l Saied won
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  Speaker 1: it by over thirty points. And so the question is
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  Speaker 1: do you believe that the people in Grand Rapids want
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  Speaker 1: to be are embracing socialism or are they looking at
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  Speaker 1: Hailey Stevens and abdul Lsied and one said I can
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  Speaker 1: make the system work, which is essentially was her message,
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  Speaker 1: and the other said, this system is broken. Well, if
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: you're a moderate Republican in Kent County that now has
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: decided the Republican Party's crazy, you left them right you were.
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  Speaker 1: This was a This was one of those the the
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: the high education Republican counties. There's there's one near you
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: in Columbus that a lot of people like to talk
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: Delaware County. Is this Delaware County reliably Republican? Trump has lost,
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: you knows, the Trump era has made it fade. It's
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: a it's a sort of some one could argue it's
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: got some similarities to to Kent. I don't believe that
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  Speaker 1: people that live in Grand Rapids want socialism. I do
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  Speaker 1: believe that people in Grand Rapids are going well, one
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  Speaker 1: guy agrees with my diagnosis. This thing is just aft up.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: The other person thinks the system is still fixable. I don't.
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  Speaker 1: I'm going to go with the socialist, even though I'm
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  Speaker 1: not sure about the solutions. At least he's going in
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  Speaker 1: there to do something different. And that's what Trump tapped into.
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  Speaker 2: I agree. That's why we love doing this truck has
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: so much fun talking about this stuff. Let's for a
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: second talk about Mondami. Yeah. Now you and I both
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: know that rent control doesn't work, right, But I know this.
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: If I'm living in an apartment up there, somebody's got
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: to do something to keep my rent from going up.
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  Speaker 2: Here's the question. Why did the traditionalists not recognize the
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  Speaker 2: problem and then come up with a solution that was
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  Speaker 2: like bold? Right? I mean, do they have no capability
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  Speaker 2: to think differently? By the way, I saw a bumper
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: sticker on the car. Sounds like I'm talking about deadhead sticker, right,
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: But here's what it said. I took a picture. It
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: said both democratic, We're not perfect, but they're nuts but back.
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: But isn't the way our entire election cycles have gone
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  Speaker 1: over the last twenty years? Which who's the nuttier? Who's
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: got the nuts.
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  Speaker 2: I was trying to say that for the traditionalists. Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: what is your sizzle? Yeah, you don't sell the steak,
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: you sell the sizzle. That's what I think Sinatra said,
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: And I'm saying to you, they're boring. I mean, why
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  Speaker 2: is it? Why is it that if you're first of all,
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: the healthcare system is ridiculous, what we've done with the
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: by taking away those subsidies, you realize what we have
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  Speaker 2: left are the sickest people and the healthiest people left
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  Speaker 2: the system. Why doesn't somebody say we're going to convene
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: everybody involved in healthcare and we're going to lock them
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: in a room and we're not going to let them
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: out until they come up with something that encourages us
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: to stay healthy rather than treating us when we're sick
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: where they make a ton of money. They're worried about
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: the rhetoric too, Chuck Yeah, I mean, where's the bold statements,
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  Speaker 2: where's the bold ideas from the establishment? They don't exist.
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  Speaker 1: By the way, I could make the same I just
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  Speaker 1: same argument about the public school system or our education system.
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: I should call it that because it's no longer a
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: public school system. It's a it's a it's very Uh.
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  Speaker 1: But what you just described, which is we've allowed our
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: healthcare care system is sort of two classes, right, the
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  Speaker 1: haves and the have nots. And our education system is
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: a two class system, haves and the have nots, which
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: of course means our economy is is sort of divvying
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: up the same way. I mean, ultimately, that's what we're
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: dealing with here, is it? We have?
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  Speaker 2: We have?
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  Speaker 1: We have we have And I think I think the
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: school system and the healthcare system are the two biggest
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: drivers of this because that's what we all touch and
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: feel every day as young families or is as you
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: know what what do you interact most with? That government
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: has a hand in health care and education, right and
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: and uh and and we have we have let these
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: two systems atrophy over the health questions, no question, no
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: innovation and and it's except in the private space in
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: education we have, but there's only so far can go.
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: And I would argue that the innovation in the private
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: space is actually harmed the public space unintentionally, right, But
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: it does do that. It is because it's a binary thing.
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: The more kids you take out of the system, the
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: more you just you see what you do you just
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: create what you just described in the healthcare system, where
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: all of a sudden, the public school system only deals
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: with those that don't have that.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, and so it becomes.
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  Speaker 1: Self reinforcing in a negative way, and we have not
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  Speaker 1: You know, what made us powerful as a as a
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: country one hundred years ago was that our our school
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: system was everybody went to the same school system, rich
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  Speaker 1: and poor, right, and then over time, you know, first
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: it was the only the ultra rich kept their kids out.
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  Speaker 1: Then it just kept you know, chopping its way down,
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: and now we've got Yeah, here's the thing, Frankstein system. Well,
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  Speaker 1: you go to the poorest communities and you have a
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: lottery to allow parents to have choice. The line is
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: so long, of course parents, But why don't we make
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: there Why can't we make their neighborhood school a great school?
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  Speaker 2: Why do we have to shadow? Why? Because you know,
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: what really is gets down to with no competition. Yeah,
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: the pizza in Miami is no good unless there's a
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: pizza place down the sidewalk. Competition is what drives change. Interestingly,
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: my problem with the Union is that they don't want change.
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: You know, Frankly, most people don't want change.
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: Everybody's in preservation mode now, and that's where, yes, we're
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: in preservation mode. Let me go to a topic because
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: I'm very curious how you would handle this as a
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: if you were on the ballot this year, and that
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: is data centers. It's interesting to me. First of all,
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: I was in I did interviews. I did back to
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: back interviews, one with Byron Donald's Conservative Republic in Florida,
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: one with Doug Jones, you could call them sort of
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: center left Democrat and Dothan Alabama.
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: Okay, both of them.
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: The number one issue they're both talking about is data centers,
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: right in different even different ways and all this stuff.
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: I think this public concern about data centers ain't about
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: data centers. It's just about uh tech. It's about big tech,
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: and it's it's it's I think, larger than just what's
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: happening in the communities. How would you be tackling this
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: one as an elected official? And then two, what would
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: you be saying to these tech companies who I think
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: have spent too much time capturing politicians and not enough
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: time capturing communities.
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: Yep, that's why we need to have public financing of campaigns. Wow,
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: Oh no, we need to have yeah, let me get
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: to public find Let me start on the first thing,
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: data center. If you're going to build a data center,
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: you have to bring power with you. This cannot be
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: put on the on the rate payers. You want to
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: bring a data center, you bring the power. If you
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: can't bring the power, you don't have a data center,
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: plain and simple. And that is not anti data center.
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: That's I'm actually pro data center, but I'm not having
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: pro sent a data center paid for by the peoples
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: whose utility bills go up. I can tell you this
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: in the state of Ohio. We are paying for data
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: centers in Virginia because we're in the same little area.
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: And it's nonsense. So that's how I would handle that now.
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: In terms of big tech, in terms of these companies,
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: I mean, you know, there's too much suck up, and
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: you know, I think, chuck. You know, we have newtered
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: the political parties. They play very little role in screening candidates.
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: They don't have any money, and all the elections now
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: are decided by special interest groups. I was telling somebody
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: that I thought would agree with me on that, and
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: they disagreed. Who was it? It was, Chris Matthews. Chris
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: said no, I don't think the public would go for
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: public finance for their money to go to some politician.
• 20:07
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• 21:53
  Speaker 1: public financing. I think we want big money out of politics,
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: but you're not using tax payer money to run. I
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: think we're I think we I think you can hold
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: both positions at the same time.
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: Well, my feeling about it is, if you're going to
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: be a candidate, you're just like you're going to have
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: a small business. You've got to reach a threshold of
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: of the factory are qualified petitions, and then then I
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: think you could publicly finance. Look, I think a lot
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: of these people go to Washington and they're beholden before
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: they even get sworn.
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: In completely agree.
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: So I can't tell you how I think we can
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: fix that. We're going to you know, whether you say, oh, well,
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: just transparency, that'll fix it all, No, won't. And the
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: problem we have is the court, and the court is
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: ruled that, you know, you can't limit speech and all that,
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: and I understand it, and but there's ways to deal
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: with that. But I've become a public finance guy. And
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: you know what, Chuck, here's the thing. Yeah, Okay, when
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: I say that, you're like, oh, wow, okay.
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, because that's not you know, but you know,
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: many conserv Republicans would be advocating for taxpayer dollars in
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: the campaigns.
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: You know what. That's why I'm fun honestly with No,
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: you're not wrong. I mean, this is why you're interesting.
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: You're not a you're you're not are You're not a
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: cookie cutter.
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: There is no place where I'm going to get my
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: instructions from the political party to tell me what to do. Bloney. See,
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: that's what I keep What I don't understand is in
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: an era now when meeting the voter face to face matters.
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: Why aren't there more people with Do you see the
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: socialists doing it? But where are the normal Democrats? Where
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: are the Republicans? They don't like Mega, They're just going crazy,
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: they hate Mega. Well, what you what do you want
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: to do and what's your rhetoric and what's your examples
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: and what's your ideas?
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: To me?
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: This is the problem.
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: You know you we identified it on the left, but
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: you're right, the center right and the center left of
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: the two parties, they don't have a compelling counter to
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: MAGA in the socialist that's the problem.
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: And you know they're boring. They follow a script and
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: they can't I mean can't they think? I mean what
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: can't they create something interesting?
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: Well, give me an idea that you think the center
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: right or the center left could do that would acknowledge
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: the angst and at the same time save capitalism.
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: Well, I think one of the ideas, as I said,
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: is that if King Jeffries becomes the speaker, I've got
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: a commitment out of Penetta to go down and see him.
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: I want him to convene a healthcare group that can
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: sit down who people who go into a room, unbiased,
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: whether they're pharma, whether they're doctors, whether they're trial lawyers, whatever,
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: come out with a plan that encourages the ability of
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: people to be rewarded for doing things to keep them healthy,
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: rather than continuing to run this treadmill. I mean, I
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: think that. And the fact is I would extend the
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: subsidies until we get an answer, because you cannot cut
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: people out of this stuff. That would be one thing. Well,
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: I'll tell you my other one. This is you're gonna
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: think this is crazy. I favor a Trump amendment. And
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: people are like, what the Trump Amendment says that we
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: shall have a balanced budget except in cases of war
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: or you know, any depression, any of that other stuff.
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: And people say a Trump amendment? Why a Trump amendment?
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: I said, because it's got his name on it, and
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: if we don't get on top of this debt, it's
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: going to cripple everybody, you know. I mean, so I've
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: been talking about that. People laugh. No, I'm going to
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: cut the Trump on this at some point. Think about that.
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: It would have his name and he hasn't enough to
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: do anything.
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm want to ask you about It's funny, and
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: that's why I love talking with you because we're going
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: to go in different directions. I didn't plan on going,
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: but I'm watching a mismanage a war right now, all right,
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: and we and I just want to let's I want
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: to separate out the policy here for a minute, because
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: that's one debate, but let's talk about the operational aspect
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: of things. And I'm just going to ask you this
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: question as a concerned citizen. For the last twenty five years,
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: basically since nine to eleven, all we have done is
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: invested money in the Pentagon, in new systems to do this.
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: We've got to modernize this, We've got to do this.
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: We've got to do that, and we are more unprepared
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: for this war.
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: Now.
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: I think this goes that Trump. Trump didn't plany if
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: we were if we knew we were going to war,
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: or that going to war with Iran was a possibility.
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: I'd like to think we'd have improved our logistics for
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: the USS Lincoln. I think I'd like to think we
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: would have set something up. But let's set that. But
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: that's my point here. What have we've been spending our money.
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: We're finding out that the Iranians are are this sort
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: of asymmetric warfare, which of course has been a problem
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: for the United States going back to Vietnam. We continue
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: to spend all this money. What are we getting for
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: our money?
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: Chuck? Sometimes I used to I think of them as
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: the Uniform Public Works Committee. Let me tell you about
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: the Pentagon. Okay, I mean, I'm.
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: Getting you were one of the committee, and I'm tee
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: you up here on purpose. I very well know you
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: were one of the first Republicans actually want to audit
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: the goddamn Pentagon.
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: Well, not just that, but you know, look, we did
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: Goldwater Nichols. There was I mean there were Goldwater Nickels
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: said that the people that fight the war ought to
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: have the power. We created special forces, you know. But
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: the problem you have, Chuck, is the Pentagon is extremely
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: resistant to any change. Yes, that's what I talked to
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: Panetta about. He goes John. It was just so hard
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: to get any change in there.
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: That's why they all hated Rumsfeld. He you know, I
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: think a Rumsfeld Rumsfeld pre nine to eleven, the first
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: eight months he had this I remember id he had
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: Bill Clinton's support for it, like he wanted he really
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: wanted to redo procurement. It was very and there it
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: was this revolt against Rumsfeld from the uniform and from
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: the defense contractors. Nine to eleven happens and he gets
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: bulldozed on his reform efforts.
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: I have a sort of a Rumsfeld was a friend
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: of mine and I spent a lot of time with him,
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: And actually after nine to eleven, I took a group
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: of people from the Silicon Valley and to introduce technology,
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: and Rumsfeld loved that we met on a regular basis.
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: But he was always wanting to be an innovator in
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: that area.
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: I just think he is an innovator.
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: What happened, the politics didn't allow it for it to happen. Right.
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: Part of it chuck with Rumsfeld in my opinion, and
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: I don't know that anybody else will agree with me,
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: is that when he was trying to tell the military
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: I want to have a big role in managing this war.
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: He was so popular, remember the press conferences. He was
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: like a matinee idol for a while.
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: I think sort of got like Andrew Cuomo covid status
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: right that that brief period before it.
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: But I think where he went too far is he
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: didn't pull the military in to say, look, what do
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: you think, But I think they laid in wait for
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: him and then they kind of did him in. But
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: back to the Pentagon, you see you said something. They
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: keep saying we have new systems, new weapons. No we don't. No,
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: if you look at Ukraine, okay, the power of Ukraine
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: is the commanders out there in the field have the
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: ability to design their own weapons. The Pentagon is a
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: giant bureaucracy. And so what's happening now is there are
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: these new systems run by these tech companies that hold
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: real promise. But the difficulty is I think I read
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: somewhere the other day they talk a big game in
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: the Pentagon, but only one percent of the money goes
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: to new systems. Why because the old systems. Ron Dellams
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: remember Ron Ellams? Yeah?
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: He and I look, he was an anti war guy.
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: He was was he a black panther or just black?
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: He was involved.
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: He was involved in the in theland, right, he was
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: part of the movement. This is Oakland and Ron Dellams.
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: I've heard this from others. Everybody thought he's going to
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: be Chairman of Armed Services, this is going to be
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: you know, piece nick, And it was never that he was.
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: He was great.
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: I have heard nothing but great things of how he
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: managed that committee. He understood, he understood something that I
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: wish more Americans understood. It's called pluralism, which means we're
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: going to have a group of people that disagree, but
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: we're going to figure out how to solve problems anyway. Sorry,
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: so spenting.
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: And he and I went after the beat the B
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: two bomber. Yeah, he and I wanted to build thirteen.
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: The Pentagon wanted one hundred and thirty two. And how
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: did we get together. I sat in a briefing and
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: they were telling me that we were going to fly
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: the B two over the Soviet Union in the middle
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: of a nuclear war and look for targets. And I'm thinking, well,
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: wait a minute, how many how many weapons do you need?
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: One's going to ruin your whole day.
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: I was just going to say that we're worried about
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: the number. The second the response, what are we going
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: to do after it begins?
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: Chuck? It took us, but we ended up. The Pentagon
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: ended up. I reached an agreement with Cheney, who hated
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: me for it, that we would build twenty. We went
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: from one hundred and thirty two down to twenty. Now
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: you know what, it took ten years to get this agreement.
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: Ten years so, and I said, we don't need to
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: kill the system. We need to have standoff weapons, new
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: things to think about. Not that I was a genius
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: in this. I had good staff, But the fact is,
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: trying to change that building is very difficult. I understand
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: that there are some people in there who were good
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: and we have to see where it all goes. But
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: I can tell you this is a and you're I mean,
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: how many tanks do we need to build now? And
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: here's the problem. Let me go back to V two.
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: This is why I was telling them not to promote myself.
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: The windshield was bar was built in one city, The
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: wings were built in another state, the tires were built
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: in another state. They loaded all these systems up so
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: they all had a constituency that supported them.
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: What if I told you, though, that both Boeing and
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: Northrop Grumm and now have their headquarters in Arlington, Virginia.
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: What does that tell you about how the Pentagon? I mean,
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: you want to talk about corporate capture, You want to
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: talk about sort of that pipeline, and you want to
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: know why you can't you can't. You can't reform the
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: Pentagon because what happens to people that are running today's Pentagon?
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: Where do they go work? John?
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: They need to work private sex companies, I know exactly.
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: And then so and all of it is designed to
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: preserve the system that exists, rather than say, how do
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: we innovate and how do we think about the wars
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: of tomorrow? Okay, my goodness, we've been exposed. That's my point.
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: What the hell have we been spending all this money on?
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: And we're getting our at We lost the straight.
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: Of horror moves. I'm sorry? What did we do? No?
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: But here here's the thing I would tell you. And
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: I was not as optimistic as you about the moderates
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: and all that other stuff, or people are rejecting whatever
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: we were talking about earlier. I am an optimist that
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: we have leaders who have good intentions, and I think
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: it is possible for the whole Pentagon to be reformed
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: with a group of people who say this is what
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: we're going to do. And I do. I think it's
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: very possible. I've sawt I've seen it done. I saw
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: it done back in the old days. I think it
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: can happen again. But what we have to what people
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: have to ask themselves. And we're kind of back to
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: this whole thing. You and I kibbots about who are
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: you answering to? Are you answering to the pocketbook? Are
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: you answering or are you answering to your family? And
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: are you answering to a higher power? Because that way
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: your intentions will be the right intentions in my opinion,
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: not in all cases and not in all ways. But
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: it's called leadership. It's called having character and saying I'm
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: here for a short period of time, let's improve this.
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: And I don't give up the fact that we can
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: get that done. I don't dismiss the notion that we
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: could get people in the media, in television who begin
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: to say to get together and say, look, can we
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: call off the message just to our base. I mean,
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: I'm an optimist. You are an optimist. We got to
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: That's why we got to keep doing our thing, give
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: people the hope.
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: It's interesting you say that. I mean, look, the I
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: think the legacy media business, Uh, there's not a market
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: for that, right and I don't I wish there were.
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: I think the market for people that I think kind
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: of agree where you and I come from are a
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: bunch of people who like I just I'm turning off
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: the noise. Yeah, and what you hate is that they
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: can't disengage. And that's been the issue they've got to.
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: It goes back to why aren't they fighting back? What
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: is your pro active I know what you're against, Like,
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: there's this you know you saw look what happened in Wisconsin.
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: It turned out there's a majority that don't want whoa whoa, whoa,
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: whoa whoa. We like Thanksgiving, but if she never says
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: cancel Thanksgiving, she wins that primary right that turned into
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: the shiny metal object going whoa, Well that's a little
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: bit too much. But I can't tell you what David
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: Crawley is for John Yeah, you know he succeeded by
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: being against that.
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: And that's been how that's that's how the center right
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: or the center has survived. They've just been a bulwark
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: against there's no and now maybe they would argue those
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: that are in that space, whether you're Lisa Murkowski or
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: or who's left in the center, left in the in
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: the Democrats, Let's say, Mark Kelly, Hey, you gotta you know,
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: you gotta wait till there's a moment. You know, you
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: gotta wait right now, we're just in retreat. You know,
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: that's why I agree with that. But you know, Chuck,
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: you you are so good at history too. Let me
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: ask you this question. Throughout American political history, who have
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: been the ones that, and I mean this rose above
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: the den and every every every generation has a din
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: that you need to rise above. Who are the ones
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: that electrified the country in a positive way?
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: The ones that really came out of nowhere or you know,
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: who are they?
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: Let's start thinking about them because I have a theory.
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: This is why I'm an advocate of if you look
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: at most of our change movements, John, in our history,
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: they were outsiders. They weren't necessarily either major party. Right
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: reform movements don't get adopted by major parties. They get
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: co opted, meaning, oh, all right, it's inevitable. So now
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: let's go ahead and be for it. Right, you just
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: sort of accept you're like, you fight it, you fight it. Like,
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: take the small thing of open primaries, right, Neither political
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: party wants open primaries until they feel like it's their
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: only way to win, and then suddenly, right it becomes
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: a necessity. Okay, we'll be for open primaries in state acts,
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: but we're still going to fight open primaries in state
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: why because we think close primaries helped us here, open
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: primaries help us there. So it's a little bit of
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: transactionalism on that. But for the most part, Abe Lincoln,
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: third party guy people forget this right, went to joined
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: a brand new party. Left the Wigs joined a brand
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: new party in order to get something done. Teddy Roosevelt
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: left his party in order to get something done. You know, FDR,
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: it took, frankly, it took it took an economic collapse
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: before there was and it really took FDR second term
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: that he really sort of galvanized the country for change
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: and things like this. So I look at some of
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: those examples and think that I don't think you're going
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: to find the next great sort of leader from one
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: of the two parties. It's either going to be somebody
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: that leaves one of the two parties to say, look,
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: I need to be unshackled here, because the only way
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: the public's going to trust me is if I'm not
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: part of that part of that party anymore, part of
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: that brand. But I look at our history and the
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: biggest changes we've made were started by outside entities. The
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: right to get women, the right to vote, direct election
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: of senators was an outsider thing. The idea of the
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: of the income tax came from the outside. That's why
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: I keep searching for the great outsider hope.
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: The end of prohibition. The end of prohibition would have been
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: another one, right, I mean, yeah, that's really really that's
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: a really interesting point, that that maybe the change has
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: to come from the outside. You remember in modern time,
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: you know Ross.
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: Perot, I think he made Do you think Bill Clinton's
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: a budget balancer without Ross Paro?
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: Nope, me, neither or not.
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: And I don't mean that to denigrate Bill Clinton. I
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: think Bill Clinton's a smart politician. He went, oh, there's
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: votes over here for it. Oh, by the way, there's
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: then he hit Bob Ruben tells him how it makes
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: financial sense, and then he's all in. Right, But it
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: took the voters threatening him. Essentially, Look what Republicans over
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: time have become to question free trade that you know,
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: do we do? You know? I would argue Pero also
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: started to introduce that mindset of hey, you know, so
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: he was this outsider agitator that was tapping into constituencies
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: in both parties, and I do think both parties tried
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: to tried to respond in a defensive posture, but it
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: did have an impact. So I do I view Ross
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: Perot as a very successful independent.
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: He was an amazing guy. He come to see me
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: and he would walk in my office, no no security,
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: no nothing. Yeah, it was hi Ross Paro's John Here.
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: I'll tell you another guy that we should that we
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: never hold up. Ralph Nader.
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, another one outside agitator that did it great. By
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: the way, to read the Today's Times where we're talking
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: on a Monday, August seventeenth, did a terrific sort of
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: Ralph Nader's still around, and it's like I'm aware of this.
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: I get these notes from him and everyone. So I've
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: had a relationship with him on and off for good
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: thirty years, and you know, he's still all there, and
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: he's still you know, he's tried to get a Wall
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: Street tax at all.
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: But he I mean, like, you know, God bless him.
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: I mean, but if Ralph Nader didn't exist, we'd all
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: half of us would be you know, would be maimed
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: by big companies. You know.
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: Well, I had a bill at one point, Chuck tried
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: to form a little group to in corporate welfare, and
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: he came to the Hill and talked about it, and
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: of course I couldn't get anybody to sign up to
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: the constat was for it, right, he was for no.
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: It was because they had to go against their own constituency.
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: You didn't want to do that, right, I mean, he wasn't.
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: But that's a really interesting thing to change. Let me
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: tell you one thing about Ralph Nader that people under us.
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: You know, Ralph Nader tried to always he was an
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: outsider who tried to change, use the system itself to
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: create change. Meaning he didn't you know, he doesn't. He
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: wasn't mister like, let's abolish the Senate. Yeah, okay, there's
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: You're not getting anything done by just saying abolish the Senate.
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: It's realistic. It's bold, but realistic, and saying about these
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: people in the middle be bold.
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: Actually though that was natter. Nader worked within the system
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: start a new organization, but it was designed to influence
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: the system that existed, not some pie in the sky
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: idea of a system that's never going to exist.
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you're going to get a group of
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: people on the outside. They're going to start turning against
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: these tech companies. And why was tech companies you know,
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: I think that's going to happen at some point. I'll
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: tell you.
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: I just spent I spent about five days going down
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: the rabbit hole of I got obsessed with this Lakers
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: sale and sort of with Mark Walter and why did
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: he have to sell so fast? It's such a strange thing.
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: Fourteen months after buying and he flips it and this
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: is not who he is. And then you start to
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: dig in and what his businesses are. And then I
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: started to understand private credit. You were in this space,
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: so I want to ask you, and I understand how
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: private credit became such a big thing. Basically, as banks
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: had to raise their standards and raise their capitalization it
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: you know that they're there, they were going to become
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: more restrictive in how much money they lent. And so
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: I could see how private credit ended up.
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: Len funds and private equity, and right.
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: Well, it turns out this Mark Walter, you know what
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: he was doing, and what apparently a lot of private
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: equity does, which is they buy an insurance company, life
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: insurance company and life insurance companies in particular, because they
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: have constant flows of cash coming in, you borrow against
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: that capital in order to essentially have more money. For instance,
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: that was as essentially as collateral to buy the Dodgers.
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: And I'm I'm absolutely shorthanding this. I'm to I spent
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: a big chunk of time explaining it. But the more
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: I read into this, the more it was like, John,
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: this feels like we are We're so blind. There's an
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: entire other eco financial ecosystem that exists that is outside
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: the public market and outside the banking sector, and that
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: strikes me as very dangerous for the future of capitalism.
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, if you think, you know what I
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: read the other day that kids sports, They're like, what
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: did I hear? Forty million? What was that number, Chevy
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: that they said they were spending forty billion, fathers and
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: fathers spending money, spending money on kids sports.
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: Private equities now trying to buy all that stuff. Yeah,
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: I'm always worried about private equity. You know where they're
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: they're they're buying every dentist, dental practice there is, and
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: you know, you wonder what is the impact of that.
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: And that's something that is another issue that that you know, how.
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: Would you begin Let me ask you this. You strike
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: me as sort of You've got a lot of Teddy
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: Roosevelt in you get. I know, I'm guessing he's got
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: to be one of your favorite favorite presidents. How would
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: Teddy Roosevelt tackle an equity? Do you think?
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: Well? I think I think chuck on any of these issues.
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: You've got to get people who are really knowledgeable. You
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: and I cannot design the plan to fix that equity.
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: I agree, I mean it scares me. Yeah, And I
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: can convene the best and figure out what the guardrails are.
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: It's the same with AI. What are the guardrails? The
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: thing I worry about on AI, for example, is there
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: are no people who can make the laws who understand
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: enough about it. And have they called other people in
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: who are experts, who aren't biased? Who are you know
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: of the public good? The same thing would be true
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: in this. You would have to you know, when I
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: became governor, I said that I was going when I
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: was running, I said I'm going to get rid of
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: economic development in the state of Ohio, and I created
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: an independent, not for profit entity called Jobs Ohio. We've
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: gone from forty seven in the country to number one.
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: We are now the number one job creator in America.
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: And it's because we created as syst them that was privatized,
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: but we also put guardrails around it. Now, over time,
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: I think in some ways it's been weakened, but we're
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: still doing really well.
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: And can you get into the details of that. Can
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: you explain, because you're right like every community has this
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: economic development right program of sorts. Yeah, that we work
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: with those public private What was it that that didn't
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: work that yours? What did you do differently just no
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: public money?
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: What? What?
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: What would you how would you say is the biggest
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: difference in what you created.
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: What we did, Chuck, is we are a control state,
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: and so we get money from liquor, right, and we
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: created this entity and we went to Wall Street and
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: we we went up there looking for bonds, which we
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: got at a good price because because when times are good,
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: people drink, when times are bad, they drink more, So
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: the bonds work really well. These were good. Then I
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: took that money, the proceeds from the bond, and I
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: hired private sector people who were experts in about five
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: or six different categories. How did you afford them.
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: Were they willing to take lesser salaries than what would
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: get that at a private economy because did you compete
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: in the market.
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we could do that. We could pay enough to
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: get them. And it's been a fantastic thing. We had
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: a board made up of business people. Now they've had
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: some hiccups lately, which I've pointed out publicly, but we
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: went from forty seven to number one in the country
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: today because we've got people in business dealing with people
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: in business. I always like to tell the story in
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: the old days in the Department of Development in the
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: state when somebody got off the phone, somebody said, who
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: were you talking to? Well, I was talking to Jamie Diamond.
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: Oh what did she want? Jamie Diamond is not annoying, Okay.
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: So in our jobs, Ohio, in the private sector, the
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: board is there to regulate. So what do they do. Yeah,
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: they go out and they search for companies and they
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: gives incentives. But the incentives are based on a return
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: on investment. So I mean, this is I don't want
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: to get any too deep here, but what I'm saying
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: to you is it was a new, big bold idea
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: that some people thought was crazy it's been a great success,
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: and I didn't do it on my own. I had
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: a half x That's my point. I had to have
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: a lot of people who were experts, bond counts, consolors
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: and lawyers and everybody to help me fix it. So
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: when you're asking me about private equity, I think the
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: answer to that is you've got to get the best
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: people in to say what are the limits that should
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: be placed on it.
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: Well, look, what's been interesting and digging into this is
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: is what you figure out. You know, if the financial
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: crisis was an indictment of the regulators that they were
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: asleep at the switch private credit, this isn't that issue there.
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: It just turns out that the regulators, there's almost these
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: private equity funds are able to pick the regulator they
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: want to deal with. So if you are, for instance,
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: using life insurance money, well you get to deal with
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: state regulators, and that's a different group of entities. If
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: you're in one another space, maybe you're dealing with the SEC,
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: or you're dealing with another federal regulator. But the fact
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: that so many different entities are involved, it actually puts
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: the advantage in the private equity fund to sort of
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: cherry pick wherever they think they can get the best,
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: the most favorable, the most favorable oversight. That's probably the
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: way to do it.
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: But Chuck, here's the thing. The private equity money comes from.
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: It's VOLUNTI. We give up to them, sure, and we
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: take the risk that it will go bad because a
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: lot of times the private equity doesn't make returns and
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: you'd be better putting your money in the bank or
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: put your money in a mutual fund. So let's not
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: get carried away. Although I am carried away by the
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: fact that these small market teams can't compete anymore. The
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: Dodgers have all the money and the pirates can't win
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: squat because they don't have any revenue.
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: Well, you know what's going to end up having is
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: that then what happens these owners decide all right, UAE
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: sovereign fund, do you want ten percent? And then they
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: get the valuation and they borrow the money. I mean,
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: I do think that you know, these these these leagues
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: are addicted to raising the valuation of their franchises. What's
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: the best way to do it, bring in more private
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: equity or bring in outside sovereign funds. I don't know.
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: If we're going to like that in twenty years. But
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: we'll see.
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: Can you believe all that we've been covering today? All right,
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: let me le let's get out, let me get you
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: out on this.
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: It's an election year. You know Ohio as well as anybody.
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: Is Ohio purple again? Or is this just a bad
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: year for Republicans?
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: Well, Chuck, look your opinion matters as much as mine
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: because you've studied it for so long. I don't think
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: we're a red state. I think you know, when you
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: take a look at Youngstown and Cleveland and Toledo and
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: those are not those are not Republican areas basically, but
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: have become Republican areas. What do I think will happen
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: over time? I think many of them will drift back
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: to the to what they naturally have been, which is
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: a split state, you know, one of these contested states.
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: That's what I think over time. What do you maybe
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: not yet?
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: But I think I mean, look, look, you're well, let
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: me all right, let's take both races here. I was
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: a skeptic that Sharon Brown could win a senencee back
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: because it's a tough year to be because I'd rather
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: run from the outside, like, how does he is he running?
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: Is he running for reelection? Or is it you know
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: what I mean? And I just thought it would be difficult.
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: It's proving not to be, I think, But I mean,
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: we'll see maybe the polls. You know, he definitely is
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: being you know, there's been a consistent lead there. What
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: do you attribute it to? How much of it is
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: name I D and houstage is not well known yet,
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: and how much of it is Buyer's remorse on Trump?
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: I think I think you've you've hit on it. I
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: think that that what name id and the fact that
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: Eustad has none of the advantages of incumbency and all
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: the disadvantages of not having been elected in his own right.
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: And I don't I think it's just too close to call.
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: And shared shared's a tough campaign or I mean, he's
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: just a tough you know, he's not quite Howard Metzenbaum,
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: but he said people wuldn't even know who that is.
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: But I just all you need to know about Howard
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: Metzenbom the guy beat John Glenn in a primary, all right,
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: And I'm sorry. If you can beat an American hero
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: in a primary, you're one tough SLB.
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: Right, I still don't understand how he did.
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: It was the historical o'domies. Yeah, you're like, it's an
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: unlikable guy beat the American hero in a primary.
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: How did that happen? That's exactly right. So I think
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: that when you think about like Youngstown, it was like, yeah,
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: we're going to go after the system and then Youngstown.
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: You know, the things are struggling, so it I think
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: it's going to tend to to change, to kind of
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: move back. What what do you think, Well, let me
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: ask you this. I look, I think.
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: I think Ohio strikes me as a as a transition state.
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: Right if before you got there, i'd say, in your
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: first term, the assumption was Ohio was shrinking, you know,
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: just like every northern state, every industrial state, that it
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: was no longer a growth state.
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: I do feel like over the.
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: Last ten to fifteen years, Ohio has done a particularly
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: in central Ohio. Right, you look at Columbus and the
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: Greater Columbus area. It's huge, it is huge and even.
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: But you also see it in northern Kentucky, which has
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: had a which which has helped with Cincinnati. You know,
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: to me, like it's really just Cleveland needs a little
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: more help, although even the Cleveland downtown is better today
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: than it has been.
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: You know, there's no doubt.
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: I am pretty bullish like Ohio is going to be
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: I think, you know, as people realize, I think domestic
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: migration is going to benefit Ohio right when people look
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: for afford places to live where they can raise their family.
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: So I think that that's I think, you know, everybody's
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: moved to the sun Belt for a quick period of
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: time because of COVID, but now inflation's going to drive
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: him back, right, Like it is really expensive to live
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: in South Florida, whether be Florida Southwest Florida.
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: I do think.
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: But let me ask you this. It the next governor
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: of Ohio is either going to be the first non
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: white person elected or the first woman elected in her
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: own right. I know that there was a What do
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: you think is the harder barrier to break, the one
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: that vivik Ramaswami's trying to break, or the one that
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: Amy Acting is trying to break.
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: I think it's that that the Republican has a big
• 54:44
  Speaker 2: ton of money, and I think that probably at the
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: end of the day, is what's going to make the
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: difference he's going to spend it. And but I mean again,
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: it's I'm surprised, but I think it's very close. I
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: thought he would win going away.
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: I'm not surpris eyes that he's struggling here. And I'll
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: just be honest, I've got one is I I look,
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: I think he's kind of pro polarizing, right. I do
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: think the Doge thing, the Elon Musk, there's a little
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: bit of he doesn't he's not Mike the Wine and
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: John Kasick, Right, there isn't this Midwestern I don't know
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: how else to put it, but this sort of can't
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: we all just take a step back here a second?
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: That doesn't feel like that's a viv Ramaswami type of instinct,
• 55:27
  Speaker 1: right that he doesn't strike me as a convener you
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: and the Wine. You know, Ted Stricklett, you know, there's
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: a just a temperament and he strikes me as not
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: having the temperament that Ohioans want in a governor, which
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: is why if you if he loses, I will believe
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: it's less about just a red versus blue Democratic turnout
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: was upper. I think there's a slice of voter that
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: that will be turned off by his personality.
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: Maybe also, Chuck, I hate to say this, but I
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: think there is some race.
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: Well, you saw what happened in Michigan to the Republican
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: that they had Trump's endorsement. His name was Amir Hassan
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: and in it, in it, And that is something I'm
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: wondering about. To the spillover effect. You're gonna have a
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: Republican party nationally pour all this. Frankly, let's call it
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: what it is, Islamic phobic, islamophobic messaging in Michigan. Does
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: that inadvertently hurt Ramaswami?
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: No, I don't think so. No, I don't think. I
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: don't know. I don't think it's spills over here. We've
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: got we've got big walls between Ohio and Michigan. You know,
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: we don't Well, I don't think so. I don't know.
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's it's it's and I just saw.
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: You see what happened to this This congressional candidate literally
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: loses to somebody who dropped out whose name was as
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: lily white as you could have. I think it was
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: like Tom Rice or something right, it was like very
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: was or Tom Smith. It was like very innocuous.
• 56:56
  Speaker 2: I think fundamentally that you you've hit the nail on
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: the head. Is the Republican candidate for governor appealing enough
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: to people and make them feel comfortable, and but their
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: messages there's there's no message. I mean, it's that's the problem.
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: Well, and the other thing, it sounds like the time
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: we're betting, I would bet he'll win.
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: You, yeah, I would bet.
• 57:19
  Speaker 1: I am curious though, do you think his plan to
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: potentially consolidate some Ohio universities pissed off enough communities that
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: he's going to get blowback in areas he didn't expect
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: to get blowback?
• 57:33
  Speaker 2: Well, you know that's a that's a that is a
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: in order to do that, chuck, And look, the problem
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: we have today is these private institutions are barely making it.
• 57:45
  Speaker 2: And the idea that you're going to put them together
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: like has happened here at Otterbune where they work with
• 57:49
  Speaker 2: Antioch to try to share things they wanted to do.
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: Even more than that, that's kind of the wave of
• 57:54
  Speaker 2: the future. But it's all the way you introduce it
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: and bring it out. And I have to tell you
• 57:58
  Speaker 2: that universities are there. That's another one that's so hard
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: to change. And it's it's tough now. I actually tell
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: you the funny story is back we had money that
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: would go into capital budgets, and I had Gordon Gee,
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: who you know is an amazing guy, former president of
• 58:14
  Speaker 2: every school, and he and I created it so that
• 58:18
  Speaker 2: we said, if you need money, we'll give it to you.
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: And if you don't need money, we're not giving it
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: to you. And you need to work with us and
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: cooperat or we will have no money. So you got
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: to use sort of You've got to have leverage, you
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: got to have you got to be able to smile.
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's complicated to be a good leader. There's
• 58:34
  Speaker 2: a mixture of things you have to do. You have
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: to be affable, you have to be tough. You've got
• 58:39
  Speaker 2: to know when to you know, it's being a leader
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: is a hard thing. A big leader there takes a
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: certain amount. It's a formula that allows you to to
• 58:50
  Speaker 2: really overcome a lot of hurdles.
• 58:53
  Speaker 1: Let me, let's let's leave.
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna tell me. I want to tell you one
• 58:57
  Speaker 2: other thing here if we can't, I went down down
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: to West Virginia to a place called the Pete Die
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: Club to play golf with a friend of mine who's
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: been a member forever.
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: And it's right by the famous famous golf course.
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: Designer, right. And there's a little town down there that
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: that is really Clarksburg. And they have part of the
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: road closed off and we had a detour, and Chuck,
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: I got to tell you, I my hometown of McKees
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: Rocks has been very tough place. I mean, a couple
• 59:33
  Speaker 2: of years ago it was the number one per capita
• 59:37
  Speaker 2: murder rate in the state of Pennsylvania. I mean, okay, tough.
• 59:42
  Speaker 2: That's where I grew up, Clarksburg. The poverty that I saw, Chuck,
• 59:50
  Speaker 2: it's it's haunting me. I mean, homes put together by
• 59:55
  Speaker 2: a string. I talked to a guy who is a
• 59:58
  Speaker 2: Clarksburgh resident, a big one. But I don't want to
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: mention them. Get them in trouble, he said. In that
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 2: part of Clarksburg, it's either drugs, homelessness. Uh, he said,
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 2: it's it's just terrible.
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: Well, you know, how do you give up on a
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: Part of what I don't get is these communities, because
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: I've seen it in my own hometown in Miami. If
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: you neglect the community, it's going to be terrible. If
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 1: you show up and say hey, we want to help.
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: You can make a community better. To know, that's local leadership.
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry.
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 2: Well, I left a message for a big time official
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 2: in West Virginia and I said, you know, when I
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: looked at this, it makes me want to cry when
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: I see abject poverty in in your state, and we
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 2: know what we can do to improve conditions. Please let's
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 2: do it. Yeah, you know poverty, Chuck, right, I remember,
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 2: Remember how about the.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: Fact that Bobby Kennedy Junior does not Junior see me?
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 1: Kennedy Senior does this Appellation tour about highlighting poverty And
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry. That was fifty eight years ago and we're still.
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 2: That must have been, right, What a tour that must
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: have been.
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: You could do the same. John Edwards did a similar tour.
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: I remember he did it No. Seven and sadly, you know,
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: people did a bunch of stories how it was sort
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: of like, oh great, so every generation somebody's going to notice.
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: But doesn't mean we do anything about it.
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 2: It means people there have got it. It's like you
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: were talking about leaders. Somebody on the outside has to
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 2: say this is not this is intolerable. But you know, Chuck,
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 2: I know that it exists. I know a lot.
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 1: I've seen a lot of poor people, but this thing
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: just rocked me. You know, this is why I'm like,
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 1: Then that's on that note. Then let me end on
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: this one, which is, who's a couple of young leaders
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: that you've been impressed with over the last year or two,
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: that you've watched that you're just killed whether you know
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: them or not, and that maybe you saw them in
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: your thought. I want to give that person a call.
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: I want to get to know them. They strike me
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: as maybe they're going to be one of the good
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 1: change agents.
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, one of the guys I like. And
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: I'd have to really give that a lot more thought.
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 2: But I like this Brian Fitzpatrick over in Pennsylvania. I
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: mean he's he's a stand up guy. He's a he's
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 2: a pretty tough guy.
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: He's the guy that the Republican that pushes back against MAGA, right, Yeah,
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: but I mean he's.
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 2: Just is no, he's like, has no fear and I
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: and I look at him and I like him, and
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 2: he and I know each other, and uh, I like
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 2: him a lot. Let me, I'd have to think more
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 2: about who it is that I don't know. I'd have
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 2: to give it, to give it some more thought, like
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 2: who who jumps out? Because there are people that that
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: I notice are significant, and I think it's I think
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: it's men and women who really want to make a difference.
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 2: By the way, I read this story here recently about
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 2: Hayden Paniteer who wrote that book about the struggles in
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: her life, and they found out at a very young
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 2: age they found her dead. And there's another one that
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 2: kind of breaks your heart. I mean, it's so funny
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 2: what we do when we talk, because we cover so
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 2: many things, right, and when people see us doing this,
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 2: they're like, I mean, these guys have a rapport that
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 2: and I love it. It's just it's because it stretches
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 2: our brains in a way, don't you think.
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: Well, it's I think at the end of the day,
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: I don't know about you. I know that people sometimes
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: view a politician a journalist that we're supposed to not
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: be human, that were these sort of cookie cutter figures.
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 1: And I think that you know, I know you rejected.
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: I rejected. I hate yeah, But that's the problem is
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 1: that that's right, Like I have to, like I always
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 1: have to overcome the assumption that well, you were on TV,
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: so you weren't really you don't really know, you don't
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: go deep on anything. And it's like, no, I am
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 1: a history junkie, and yeah, I do like to go
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 1: you know. But there's this quote perception of the TV people, right,
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 1: just like the politicians. You guys just you know, you're
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: just caring about the next donor and stuff, right, And
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 1: I think sort of you and I have both been.
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: You know. It's almost like we we hate that stereotype
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: so much, we're looking to always poke the finger, and
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 1: that's probably right.
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 2: What about what about Miami this year? Are they going
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 2: to have any kind of a football team?
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 1: I feel pretty good. I am a I am way
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 1: too bullish like I have.
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 2: I I think.
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 1: They're on a I think they're on a mission. I am,
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 1: but I think they could be on a mission. I
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 1: think they're built the right way. They lost the right way.
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: We got a better quarterback this time. I'm curious, do
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 1: you think Miami broke? Julian saying do you think we broke?
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: Julian saying.
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 2: No, I definitely, I will find out. I will tell
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 2: you this. It's amazing exposed.
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 1: We exposed that offense us in Indiana exposed that offensive line, didn't.
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 2: We Yeah, you know, the whole thing I always think
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 2: about with Ohio State is why is it we're being outstrengthed?
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 2: You know, why are why are we not tough enough?
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: You know, you should be tougher than the Indiana Yeah, exactly,
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 1: you're right, damn it.
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know the rate number one this year again,
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 2: and they keep getting these recruits. It's unbelievable.
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 1: Well, it's big budgets. Man, it's amazing, it is. I'm
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 1: going to I get you going to Ohio State, Texas.
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: You gotta go down to Austin.
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 2: No, No, I'm not sure much of a fan as
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 2: you are.
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 1: But that's a great You know why you should go
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: because I think you'd enjoy that atmosphere. It's I mean,
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 1: it's a great stadium.
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 2: You'd enjoy it.
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 1: You'd probably get I'm sure you'd know people that would
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 1: give you a nice seat.
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 2: Oh. You know, there's nothing more X than an X.
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 2: First of all, there's nothing more X than an ex congressman.
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 2: And there's really nothing more X than an ex governor. Yeah,
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 2: or governor. It just doesn't know all those perks and everything. Really. Yeah, No,
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 2: you know, I tell you. I went to get my
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 2: I had a nail in my tire. Yeah, and I
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 2: go to the tire store. I'm going to save this
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 2: for for my uh hey, by the way, can people
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 2: know that I have tell me show?
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 1: Yes? Please go tell them?
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean it's called the John Kaseik Show. It's
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 2: on Serious XM, and I I would I think they'd enjoyed.
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 2: It's it's you know, it's not heavy political, but it's
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 2: it's interesting show. It's easy to listen to. So I
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 2: hope they'll they'll tune into it. But I went to
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 2: this tire store, chuck with a nail. I was into
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 2: that Tower tire store for six hours and you might
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 2: say to me. And so I was on with Matt Buye,
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 2: the journalist. I said, I'm not telling anybody what I used.
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 2: He goes, why don't you tell them who you are?
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 2: He said, no, I'm not going to do that. And
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 2: I don't think they care anyway. They might make me
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 2: wait seven hours. Here's what I want to tell you.
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 2: Six hours tires.
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 1: Here's what I want to tell you. Have you not
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 1: heard of these mobile tire people?
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 2: I just got a nail and no, no, no, this
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 2: came to my house. I bought the tire. They replaced
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 2: it Tesla. They do Tesla's No, well, I don't know
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 2: about this. Do you wan anything about a mobile tire
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 2: place that comes to your house? No, we never. I
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 2: mean I got people that I got people. Oh buddy,
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 2: go check it out. All right. I can't believe neither
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 2: one and neither one of.
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 1: Us have tired people as our sponsors.
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 2: But all right, we'll see you soon. Good to see
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 2: your brother,