Latest / Uncomfortable Conversations with Josh Szeps / "Corporations Go Woke" with John Safran

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"Corporations Go Woke" with John Safran · Uncomfortable Conversations with Josh Szeps

• 0:00
  G'day humans. I can't quite believe that I'd never met today's guest John Safran he's a he's a
• 0:07
  I was going to say he's a legend of Australian broadcasting, but that sort of that gives him more gravitas and authority
• 0:14
  Then he would probably want to have he's been a troublemaker a bet noir a young upstart for nine on 50 years now
• 0:22
  Well, he's almost 50 I suppose his career isn't but he's the sort of guy who exploded on to the scene in Australia in his
• 0:29
  mid-twenties on a show in the 90s called Race Around the World which I won't go into explaining because we talk about it in the interview
• 0:37
  But it's a way this is a way of understanding where he sits
• 0:40
  He's always been on the periphery. He's always been on the outside. He's always been
• 0:45
  lobbing hand grenades at the powerful in
• 0:49
  Australia and around the world
• 0:51
  His new book is about a fascinating subject that I hadn't even heard about which is the attempt by Philip Morris the
• 0:58
  The huge tobacco giant to create a future beyond smoking for its tobacco products and the kind of
• 1:06
  Weasily corporate-est way that they're doing that and the way that the
• 1:10
  The public including on the left are so gullible when companies like Philip Morris do all the right things
• 1:16
  In terms of being politically correct and woke and being pro LGBT at the same time as they're shoving tobacco down the throats of
• 1:23
  Poor people mostly people of color around the world
• 1:27
  Um one way of getting an understanding of John is just to read the first few lines of his wikipedia
• 1:32
  I don't normally do this, but listen to this John Michael Safran is an Australian radio personality
• 1:38
  Satteros documentary maker and author known for combining humor with religious political and ethnic issues
• 1:44
  Safran's known for his television stunts which include placing a fatwa on Australian television host
• 1:51
  Rove Mutt Manus he was sort of like the jail in out of Australia
• 1:55
  Sneaking nine young men into an exclusive Melbourne nightclub by disguising them as members of the American band slipknot
• 2:02
  And running through Jerusalem wearing nothing but the beanie and scarf of the St. Kilda football club
• 2:09
  So before there was Borat before there was Ali G
• 2:13
  There was John Safran on Australian television. He has a lot to say about a lot of things without further ado
• 2:19
  I hope you enjoy this chaotic conversation with John Safran
• 2:34
  You think like someone who's life maps perfectly as does mine onto the rise of
• 2:42
  This thing we call the call the internet. What do you do follow
• 2:45
  Influences do you are you a social media person?
• 2:49
  Um
• 2:50
  I've got a I've had those companies. I think cameos the main one very recently. There's been another one
• 2:58
  Called Mimo and they send me messages
• 3:01
  Want me to sign with them in the capacity as an as an interviewer
• 3:06
  But I don't think it's good for my personal brand
• 3:11
  The fact that you have a personal brand means that you're perfect for cameo and mimo and bibo and flibo and
• 3:22
  It's just there's just something about it that I don't I just don't reckon
• 3:26
  The average radio of a John Safran book or the average viewer of a John Safran music jamboree ever so
• 3:35
  He's gonna be saying
• 3:38
  Oh, okay 25 bucks if and John will wish me happy birthday like it just
• 3:43
  Don't change yourself John or whatever it is it just
• 3:48
  Do you know what I'll send a lands charges
• 3:51
  What a thousand dollars on cameo
• 3:54
  Yeah, but yeah, I'm not begrudging him because that just matches up with his
• 4:00
  Him, you know what I mean
• 4:02
  I don't mean
• 4:04
  The next word there you it matches up with his what
• 4:09
  Oh, it's a bit like it's a bit like um, what's his name?
• 4:13
  Cartman from South Park. Yeah, can smoke marijuana
• 4:18
  But Bart Simpson from the Simpson's can't and it's just there's things that kind of map with your
• 4:26
  Right personal brand maybe I'm gonna say another word besides personal brand because
• 4:30
  It just sounds like I'm saying that in like some like cynical cold calculated way
• 4:34
  Well, it also sounds to me it sounds to me like you're saying it as a euphemism for calling Kyle Sandalins a dick
• 4:41
  It's like of course he would charge a thousand dollars because he's a
• 4:45
  He's a fucked out like he is a selfish man
• 4:48
  He has a brand and then you're like oh, I'm weighing on his brand is that he's kind of
• 4:52
  Uh, you know aggressive or like big notes himself a lot
• 4:57
  No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no
• 4:59
  I'm just now. I'm just revealing my interior monologue and I'm super imposing that on to you
• 5:05
  I'm perfectly innocent bystander John and you are being asked to account for things you didn't say
• 5:10
  It may not even have thought that I've just created and placed in your in your mouth
• 5:15
  uh, I'm trying like I'm trying to think of something I could do that
• 5:19
  Is a bit I guess my entire career is doing things that are
• 5:23
  Don't cheat, but um
• 5:25
  uh
• 5:26
  Yeah, like like I'm trying to think what could I get away with kind of advertising or
• 5:31
  Well cigarettes now obviously. Yeah, cigarettes. You see how how screwed is that that I can actually that are
• 5:39
  Just for anyone listening in because my book was about investigating Philip Morris the Melbro people. I thought it be
• 5:47
  Fun for my photo shoots
• 5:49
  To wear like a
• 5:51
  Melbro gear
• 5:53
  Yeah, so I bought I bought this really cool jacket like racing jacket with Melbro on it
• 5:59
  From Pakistan in fact
• 6:01
  I also got a cool Melbro top from the 90s whatever I do and you're talking about Milbro the cigarette brand
• 6:08
  Yeah, yeah, so there I was getting my photos taken like that
• 6:13
  Good it just seemed cheeky and fun and you and
• 6:17
  Um, what you're not meant to do and then I found out yeah, you're not meant to do it and that's why
• 6:23
  The age will not be running any of my photographs of me in Melbro gear
• 6:29
  And then and then the worst thing is that because I couldn't run it in my those they just had to
• 6:34
  Get a foul photo where my face was fatter than it is now
• 6:39
  so
• 6:41
  No, it's like really I'm here
• 6:43
  But yes, how how twisted is that I can advertise
• 6:47
  Melbro, but I mean, it's like really specific way why I'm not getting paid by them
• 6:53
  or where can you where can you show those photos because
• 6:57
  I put them on social I put them on social media. Well, there you are. You're an influencer. I know like like your husband
• 7:02
  I'm a yeah, I'm a social influencer so I can yeah, I put those up
• 7:07
  It just feels like cheeky and fun and
• 7:11
  And I haven't really got in truck besides yeah, I got in practical trouble for it like they couldn't run it, but so far
• 7:18
  Public health organizations, you know, the kind of influencers that are on
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  Twitter and stuff they're still backing me
• 7:28
  Well, I think what is that?
• 7:30
  If you've got the Rona are you coming down with something?
• 7:33
  But yeah, now I wouldn't I wouldn't like leak to that straightaway
• 7:37
  There as many as much as I
• 7:41
  Trust getting diagnosed over the internet. Well, I just and I can't even see the part of the social media influencer. I think
• 7:49
  A pro vaccine social media influencer. Shall I say who has had to endure some ignominy from his peers about his controversial pro-science stance
• 8:00
  I did a video for
• 8:03
  For Jews. I'm a I'm a Jew for Jews getting the vaccine, but I really only did it because
• 8:08
  They asked me and I happened to think of like a funny idea
• 8:12
  So yeah, but that's a case in it
• 8:14
  Who's what is is there an organization called Jews for vaccines or something?
• 8:19
  No, no, no, just a general um just a general if you were to get vast. Yeah, there's just like a Jewish organization
• 8:26
  You know the one the one you hear about on in ironically in those anti-vaxxer
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  pages
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  The secret Jewish organization that the one that controls the media
• 8:37
  Yeah, and he's forcing you to get vaccines or whatever
• 8:41
  They also that they contacted me
• 8:43
  Monopoly, right
• 8:45
  Can you help us in our plot to inject the world with Bill Gates and George Soros the microchip and stuff and I said
• 8:54
  Yes, good
• 8:57
  So I did so yeah the more I think about it the more I realize I am a social media influencer
• 9:03
  Although I don't know how many Jews actually
• 9:06
  Got injected for like for those recommended it
• 9:10
  Well, they must have been there must have been a couple they would have been a couple now record
• 9:13
  But then yeah when you say Jews it's it's I mean my dad's Jewish not religiously and my my grandparents were Holocaust survivors
• 9:22
  So ethnically I'm Jewish and when you say I'm a Jew is that a little bit more provocative than saying I'm Jewish
• 9:31
  Um, I don't know I heard I heard Billy Crystal
• 9:37
  Talk about that decade ago like way before
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  Everything had become sensitive and woke so must you might might be hitting on something because yeah
• 9:44
  I saw this thing where Billy Crystal was going
• 9:47
  Don't say you say a Jewish person or something like that right and um
• 9:51
  But like was he was he taking the piss out of that or was he serious?
• 9:54
  No, no, no, he was being serious for some reason the and um like Billy Crystal
• 9:58
  I say I get in trouble I don't get in trouble because like
• 10:02
  Like but I say I like to say US as well, which is like a real antiquated
• 10:09
  And I case I've never really got in trouble because
• 10:13
  Jeez just I just I don't understand how much you have to explain these days where like if you say something cheeky and
• 10:21
  And you know everything. I mean you have to ex you know
• 10:23
  I mean some people want you to explain that's like what like what's the job?
• 10:26
  I don't even sometimes I say stuff and I'm saying it because I think it's funny and people find it funny
• 10:31
  But I don't exactly know why so why don't why when I say US is that funny? I don't know. I guess it's because
• 10:38
  It is you're being a bit inappropriate because you know what you mean you you mentioned these days not really
• 10:43
  I think it's the specificity of it. I think it's the it's the old it's the old-schooly specificity of it
• 10:50
  Yeah, it's like saying my it's like saying Muhammadin instead of Muslim or something
• 10:54
  That's right. That's right
• 10:56
  I once had while you'd Ali on my radio show. Yeah, I told him I'm a Muhammadin. I introduced him as that.
• 11:06
  I mean you'll get canceled for that at some stage
• 11:09
  No, I don't yeah, it's like this line or whatever like because why is it it's kind of making it's making fun of the fact that
• 11:16
  Like the way the language or something all the way. I don't know
• 11:19
  Well, do you remember did it make news here when in about 2015
• 11:24
  Stephen Colbert who still had the Colbert rapport at the time and John Stuart was still on the air
• 11:30
  Got into trouble because
• 11:33
  Dan Snyder who was the head of the
• 11:36
  The Redskins football team. There's been a push to you know have them renamed because it's offensive to Native Americans
• 11:43
  And he said look, I'm not racist against Native Americans. I'm establishing this charity for Native to fund
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  Native American education
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  So why would I do that? And I'm also not going to change the team's name
• 11:55
  so Colbert went on the air
• 11:57
  And said I have been sometimes accused of being racist towards Asian people and he showed clips of him doing this kind of
• 12:06
  sort of old-schooly 1920s like Ching Chong China man type yacht on his show
• 12:13
  And he said I'm clearly not racist and to prove it
• 12:16
  I'm hereby announcing the set the establishment of the Stephen Colbert
• 12:23
  Foundation for Ching Chong Dingong's or Orientals or whatever
• 12:27
  Oh, yeah, something like that. That was the joke. Yeah, yeah
• 12:29
  So yeah, it was a joke and
• 12:31
  Yeah, and he was making fun clearly of he was satirizing the insincereity of another person's anti-racist
• 12:38
  self-identification and a certain cohort of what would now be called woken at the time was just called
• 12:46
  confusingly hysterical
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  Asian-American activists
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  Called for the cancellation of the show and at the time I got in snared in that whole thing because I was on the air in the states on half
• 12:57
  Post live and I interviewed the woman who was spearheading this campaign
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  I say woman she was like a 22 year old
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  Korean American activist who lived with her parents, but
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  It I was not particularly sympathetic to her point of view and that went that alone went viral and
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  Got me in all sorts of trouble and that was sort of the first shot across the bow of like the culture wars as
• 13:19
  Or of my involvement in in the culture wars in some way
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  And what I thought was funny about Colbert's line is the use of the word Orientals
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  Like Orientals for me is a bit like us
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  It's a word that is in is just on the border of being inappropriate
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  We're not entirely sure why and it has something to do with the fact that only so only an old-timey person
• 13:39
  Would use such a word and it's just not what we call that that uh that community anymore
• 13:46
  Yeah, yeah, so maybe I guess maybe I just get away with us being uh
• 13:51
  Jew or something you will maybe partly but also it may be that in 20 years time
• 13:56
  People you'll be getting cancelled for this conversation now like what if you called someone a Negroes
• 14:01
  What if you called uh and someone of african descent a Negroes?
• 14:05
  Oh, yeah, I'm trying to I'm trying to think I think maybe even in my
• 14:09
  Um hey hey
• 14:12
  Maybe I would have
• 14:14
  They'll sort of gone off about that you never know
• 14:17
  Oh, whatever the uh
• 14:20
  What was your what was your compulsion originally John when you were starting out and we can get back to that
• 14:25
  This is where we sort of pivot to the to the life story and youth story of mr. jumpsafran
• 14:30
  But for people who might be listening to us outside of Australia or who might not know you give us a sense of how you
• 14:36
  Exploded onto into public attention in the 90s and what you'd been up to before that
• 14:43
  Uh
• 14:44
  Well, I guess it all starts in grade three when I realize I have a
• 14:50
  We don't even realize I just have a creative impulse and I want to do something
• 14:54
  But I just go to an ordinary you know primary school and
• 15:00
  Then over primary school and the high school
• 15:03
  And then getting into uni. I just I'm like I'm just sort of like poking around trying to
• 15:09
  Figure out how to quench this creative desire
• 15:15
  I try everything like you know when I'm a little kid. I'm trying to draw
• 15:19
  control
• 15:21
  I put together school plays and grade five
• 15:26
  um
• 15:27
  former band in high school a hip-hop band
• 15:31
  hip-hop
• 15:32
  Yeah, I was it was called raspberry cordial. I was
• 15:36
  I was mc
• 15:38
  What was your best soul?
• 15:40
  I
• 15:41
  I'm taking full advantage of the fact that
• 15:44
  Back then everything wasn't uploaded onto YouTube. Oh my god. Can you imagine?
• 15:51
  Uh, yeah, it's just there was a combination. I don't really those songs that were like funny
• 15:56
  Which I mean there's lines in it that make me cringe but overall it's okay
• 16:00
  um like
• 16:01
  Milk there was one called melvin tram
• 16:04
  About catching a tram in the morning
• 16:06
  At seven o'clock in the morning. I fall out of bed. Get my school back together to the tram stop the head
• 16:12
  I arrived back then like we weren't into that. Well, don't stop. I want to hear the song
• 16:18
  Um, I arrive at the stop
• 16:20
  According to eight no surprises the tram is late. Oh my god. If he gets gets cringey
• 16:26
  cringey out
• 16:27
  It's like it's like one something's dead. It can't be more dead
• 16:30
  But for some reason I feel like this can get more cringey than now. So I feel like I should pull
• 16:35
  The tram breaks the brakes on the train. I want your foot firmly on the tram accelerator my friend or
• 16:42
  Is it a foot? It's probably a handle. I want you to find it. Let's see
• 16:45
  Um, when it knows the price of the tram is late. I can't recall that ever once being on time
• 16:49
  The tram would be put in jail if being late was a crime. I'm I'm god damn very young at the time. I'm right is
• 16:55
  20 minutes later the tram it comes at last, but it doesn't stop to let me on it just rattles past
• 17:00
  To make sure the next one stops. I lie down across the track
• 17:04
  Uh, I mean it wouldn't run me over, would it?
• 17:08
  Splat. So that's the end of like the first
• 17:12
  The first time. Well, I like where I like where I ended up. I like it was very
• 17:16
  It was very innocent to begin with and very straightforward and then we've got macabre
• 17:20
  Oh, yeah, I like that. That's okay, but I also did a few sincere
• 17:24
  Songs they don't really I don't age well. This is you one I cut like
• 17:31
  um
• 17:33
  Anyway, so
• 17:35
  I was just doing you would just sounded like you were about to give me a sincere one and then then you backed out
• 17:40
  then um
• 17:42
  So I just did things like that. I but I was even doing things like auditioning
• 17:47
  Uh, to do some like comedy things like on hey hey Saturday when they had like a call out the audience
• 17:54
  Like I was always like just trying to find some space or yeah
• 17:57
  And I could have quite figure out what what it was or whatever
• 18:00
  And did you let it time like when you were going on hey hey, it's Saturday was which by the way if you don't remember it or you're not
• 18:06
  Australian was a weekly sort of when I say when I say when I'm saying like when I was
• 18:13
  I don't know 14 15 and they put a call out. I hate. We're gonna be at the shopping center
• 18:17
  For the great I was a joke. So if you've got a joke come on down. That's why me when I
• 18:24
  Yeah, no, I did I went and auditioned like I did that when they were like they were they were like
• 18:29
  It was I think it must have been hey hey, they were like we're gonna have an impression
• 18:33
  competition at Darling Harbour and I went down and I did an impression
• 18:38
  out of
• 18:40
  Phil Donahue
• 18:42
  When I was probably like you know
• 18:44
  14 or something oh no, I'm gonna go laugh. You don't really I didn't mean but but the oldies are laughing
• 18:49
  You just for being 14 and try. Yeah, that's right. That's right. It's the thinking that you can do a Phil Donahue impression
• 18:54
  I was actually doing an impression of
• 18:57
  uh
• 18:58
  Who was the great SNL impersonator who did Clinton and
• 19:04
  I don't know
• 19:06
  I can't remember his name
• 19:08
  Uh, but anyway, uh, yeah, I he did a great impression of Phil Donahue and like it like everyone who's 14 trying to do impressions
• 19:15
  You're basically doing an impression of an impression as to you saw do a great impression
• 19:19
  Uh, so I was just copying him
• 19:21
  But what I was asking you about with hey hey was at this time when you're trying to find
• 19:25
  Some space in the universe for little John Safran to express his John Safranness to the cosmos. Are you
• 19:33
  Looking towards grown-ups who have careers that inspire you like was
• 19:40
  I don't know if I wanted to be
• 19:43
  like I'll still
• 19:45
  Plotting around so
• 19:47
  But I don't like there's there's people I like but I think
• 19:51
  What what as soon as I was in high school? I think I even though I like comedy and wanted to make it part of the work
• 19:57
  I never really wanted to be like a straight comedian like for instance. I've never done
• 20:02
  Besides the great Aussie joke on hey hey, I've never like done stand up or whatever
• 20:07
  There was always like I was always looking at things that had more of a like a twist in the tail if you want it
• 20:11
  Not that the like like comedy school or whatever like I got what when I was in grade five or whatever
• 20:17
  I discovered weirdo yankovic so that that of course changed my life
• 20:22
  then
• 20:24
  Inspired to become a hip-hop from a car of a hip-hop artist
• 20:28
  Well, yeah, I did a I did a few parody songs myself but uh then
• 20:34
  Can we hear one?
• 20:36
  I was it can you give me an insight into into any of the parody songs
• 20:39
  Well, I did like losing my
• 20:42
  Pepigen to losing my religion
• 20:44
  Pepigen area. Yeah, yeah, pigeon. Pepigen right
• 20:49
  Just someone start doing it. Don't worry. No, no, no, no worry about like you you got to like edit things out of the life story of anyone right
• 20:55
  So like we don't we don't need a sort of like an episode of when what's his name the guy who
• 21:01
  Does those like this is right no Ryan Murphy where it right does like the
• 21:08
  Betty Gable story or whatever then they have to leave some stuff on the cutting room for
• 21:12
  No, I'm fully aware of that but I'm my my goddamn anthology when it when it's the season is john saffron
• 21:19
  They're gonna they're still gonna have to leave some things on the cutting room floor john
• 21:23
  I don't know
• 21:25
  I am Murphy what he can and can't put in your own life story
• 21:29
  Yeah, no one wants. I'm telling you it's gonna be a low rating episode
• 21:32
  Everyone wants losing my
• 21:34
  Pigeon that's the bit you keep you don't keep all the rest you you do an entire anthology about losing my
• 21:40
  Pigeon
• 21:42
  So yeah, I was into comedy but and me and my friend were obsessed with the degeneration
• 21:48
  which were
• 21:50
  This comedy troop that we're on morning radio at the time and they went on to be the like the working dog people and the panel people like santo
• 22:00
  and
• 22:02
  Tom glies and robsich
• 22:03
  James yeah, although yeah, they mean my friends were obsessed with them and would turn up like when they did because they broadcast out of Melbourne
• 22:11
  So if they did an outside broadcast me and my friends would wag high school and go there
• 22:15
  And just I was into all this like me and my friends were obsessed with Monty Python and just it's so just the usual
• 22:21
  stuff and then but then when I discovered hip hop that's when
• 22:25
  Like it really jolt because you were able to do funny things, but there was a sting in the tail and
• 22:32
  You're allowed to like weave in and out of what's funny, but it's also got this other layer to it or it's got this other layer to it and it's also it's also funny
• 22:41
  so
• 22:42
  But then anyway, so there's just that
• 22:45
  Then I left what after high school. I did started studying journalism. So I guess that's writing and then I was also doing a
• 22:53
  Copywriting course at night
• 22:55
  Uh, and then I got a job in an ad agency as a copywriter. So I left
• 23:00
  uh, the
• 23:02
  Journalism course
• 23:03
  Then okay now we're finally getting something anyone would be interested in maybe is that
• 23:09
  uh
• 23:10
  ABC put out
• 23:12
  Uh, and this is like 1997
• 23:15
  Uh, they put out an ad on the tv saying oh, we need
• 23:19
  Eight young people have never been on tv before or been in the media
• 23:24
  We want to send them around the world
• 23:26
  Separately and they have to send back a documentary every
• 23:31
  Uh, 10 days on this show called race around the world and I'd never thought about doing a documentary before or
• 23:38
  Even being on tv before that might you know like even though despite what you might think because of my um
• 23:44
  Great Aussie joke appearance on hi-hat Saturday. It wasn't really a particular
• 23:49
  Desire of mine, but I just I just put in a submission for that
• 23:53
  Just like I tried out things in grade three or whatever. It was just like I'll have a go at least or whatever
• 23:58
  That I got on the show
• 23:59
  Then I got into my groove and then that became my stick the stick. Yeah, I mean you you just glossed over that like it was
• 24:06
  Just another thing in your life, but but for people who don't remember
• 24:09
  I mean I was in my teens at the time and that
• 24:12
  I guess you were in your mid 20s when you got when you got that and it was a early 20s
• 24:17
  It was a phenomenon. I mean it was a huge and I was trying to explain it
• 24:20
  I was trying to remember what the show actually was and explain it to my partner last night
• 24:24
  But I mean it was a captivated the country
• 24:28
  Yeah, so the context is that oh back in those days like tv was much more
• 24:34
  official and
• 24:36
  Like for instance, you had good lighting on tv shows
• 24:39
  So this thing that we've could just kind of adapted to now where
• 24:43
  Our eyes are adapted to our someone can shoot something on their phones or now phones are becoming really good cameras or whatever
• 24:49
  Remember that kind of in between time, you know like it like if someone like caught something in the real world and it's just on their crappy
• 24:57
  Handicam or something like that like that that used to not be tv tv. Yeah
• 25:02
  Things have to be well lit people have to be attractive
• 25:06
  Also the people who you saw on tv. Yeah, as you say not just attractive
• 25:09
  But but they were experienced that I mean there were gatekeepers of television
• 25:13
  There was no and they were kind of like cars and they were all you know
• 25:16
  People who had dedicated their lives to the craft of broadcasting and here was a show where
• 25:21
  Young young a little Jewish with the snappers like yourself would just roaming around the world with a handicams sending back these
• 25:27
  Electrifying mini documentaries. Yeah, so even even the whole thing that we we luckily
• 25:32
  Had the first generation of cameras that had ever come out that had a flip screen where you could turn it and therefore hold it
• 25:41
  And shoot this video diary like before that you'd have to set up up up on a tripod and it was the first selfie essentially
• 25:48
  Yeah, it was the first selfie and
• 25:51
  So people were even like blown away by that like you'd be sitting at home watching your tv
• 25:55
  And there's there was like a little bit of the internet but not too much and definitely not social media or youtuber anything like that
• 26:01
  And so people would just like blown away that like what's this
• 26:05
  Badly lit thing where these guys squeezing his nose and squeaking into like it just seemed really odd and unusual
• 26:12
  And it was I guess I guess the other voters voted that the viewers voted on whose documents are the best
• 26:18
  How did you how did you did you win? I can't remember
• 26:22
  Sorry finish finish whatever thought you were on path to finish the the other context and this is relevant to me or whatever
• 26:28
  Because what what I did I knew I wanted to do something a bit quirky and fun
• 26:32
  But I hadn't quite landed on what exactly that was so my first couple of episodes were
• 26:39
  Uh the first couple of like four minute videos because like yeah, it was like four or five minutes
• 26:44
  You have to submit every 10 days from it and you're in a different country each time
• 26:48
  and
• 26:49
  I think really know what I was doing and then then I got to the ivory coast
• 26:54
  Like by about this was about story three or four
• 26:58
  And I'd broken up with
• 27:01
  And my girlfriend and it really been heartbreaking and
• 27:05
  uh
• 27:06
  I had a letter from her and I had a photo from her and so I did this uh
• 27:12
  Thing that starts off like it's going to be a conventional national geographic
• 27:15
  Thing of like you're exploring another interesting culture and I'm gonna look into videoism and I did that
• 27:21
  But I did it through the I did it through the lens of
• 27:25
  I'm bitter and twisted because I've just broken up with an air girlfriend
• 27:28
  And I've got a love letter and I've got her photos
• 27:31
  And I'm gonna go around to voodoo doctors around the ivory coast in West Africa
• 27:36
  and try to have a voodoo curse
• 27:39
  Put on her and and through that
• 27:41
  learn this
• 27:43
  Other culture and and and their ritual that they're unexpected ritual compared to uh and
• 27:50
  And as soon as I did that I was like this is it
• 27:53
  This is like somehow all those years are trying to figure out where my place in the universe was
• 27:58
  It's this is it this this it being I'm exploring something that's worth
• 28:03
  exploring on some like regular journalistic level and
• 28:07
  Uh, but I'm in a self-aware way
• 28:11
  Making it all about me because you're not meant you're not meant to
• 28:16
  But the audience is kind of aware that I'm aware if you know what I mean
• 28:19
  So it's it's not like classic straight line narcissism and I'd say it's even the opposite
• 28:25
  It's kind of acknowledging that you're never the you're never a fly on the wall when you're a journalist you never like some independent
• 28:32
  Uh, got some birds eye view or whatever like you're you're bringing on like it's a little bit like using the word
• 28:38
  Jewish
• 28:39
  Yeah, like it's you know well in the sense that it's self that it's self-aware
• 28:44
  Yeah, it's self-aware but it's also I think I would say it's humble
• 28:47
  Because I would say it's humble I tell you why because you are
• 28:51
  acknowledging
• 28:53
  That what you're doing is not yeah is not this sort of
• 28:58
  impartial
• 28:59
  Yeah journalism where you're telling the whole truth and oh you're you're seeing every angle you're saying
• 29:05
  No, no, this is my eyes coming into this or whatever anyway, so so it was like
• 29:10
  Investigating something making it personal and making it a bit funny and inappropriate
• 29:15
  Because I mean that was the other layer to it where you know back then at least it's like oh no
• 29:22
  If you go to another culture
• 29:24
  Like you should be like it very you know
• 29:28
  Quiet and referential and sort of like
• 29:31
  It's almost like examine them
• 29:34
  As if it's like some kind of zoo or something like that yeah, yeah
• 29:37
  And and and was I'm just like clumping around with me being me
• 29:41
  Anyway, but back up with my girlfriend. That's what what do you think and okay?
• 29:45
  So then but then the other so the other context that's important to know is this was
• 29:50
  this was like before
• 29:52
  Chesa before Ali G or Borat
• 29:56
  and
• 29:57
  So
• 29:58
  That was another like weird thing about my little things like people going like what's the reference to this like?
• 30:03
  Yes, so it wasn't like if you watch something now and you go I get what he's doing
• 30:06
  He's doing that thing that all those people do or whatever and
• 30:11
  The reason I luckily had that in my arsenal because I wasn't really
• 30:15
  Not at all. I don't really like pranking or
• 30:18
  Things like that, but
• 30:20
  Very luckily when I was when I was in first year uni and I was like obsessed with
• 30:25
  Finding out about like different counter-cultural movements
• 30:30
  Uh, just cause I don't know. I went to a like really really just Jewish school
• 30:35
  And before there was the internet so therefore when I kind of got into first year uni I was like
• 30:40
  I just went crazy. I was like oh, I want to know about this and that and that and that and
• 30:44
  and
• 30:46
  One of the things I learned about was this group called the hippies
• 30:50
  Not the hippies or the upies, but the hippies who I think like
• 30:54
  Maybe very early 70s
• 30:56
  Well, wasn't even late 60s. I don't know, but around there and they were like this movement of
• 31:02
  And one of their like figureheads was this guy called Abby Hoffman and he'd written this book
• 31:07
  He written a book called steal this book
• 31:09
  So he walked into a book shop and there's a book and it's called steal this book
• 31:13
  It's like what I mean
• 31:14
  What I'm here to do with that right, but he he'd do these he was a bit of an activist
• 31:19
  And he'd do these I guess what now would be these sort of like
• 31:23
  trolling exercises that and where everything's a bit ambiguous and it's got social commentary
• 31:30
  But it's not really hectoring and it's not really like wagging your finger and it's also like a bit hard to pin down exactly
• 31:37
  What the social activism is I guess so for instance one thing I heard about him is
• 31:42
  Because he was against the war
• 31:44
  Uh, like the Vietnam War and so he organized
• 31:48
  um
• 31:49
  Holding hands around the Pentagon
• 31:52
  Uh, to try to levitate the Pentagon
• 31:54
  It was kind of like stuff like that
• 31:56
  So he was it's funny you mentioned Borat because you know he was played by Sasha Baron Cohen
• 32:01
  in the there was a um
• 32:03
  Oh, yeah, it called the trial of the Chicago seven which was really hard to talk about
• 32:08
  Yeah, yeah, that's it. Yeah, and Abby Hoffman was the was one of the protagonists in that and
• 32:12
  Sasha Baron Cohen played him
• 32:13
  Yeah, so and then and through that I'd kind of learned about there was this counter cultural thing of
• 32:19
  social justice
• 32:21
  kind of oh
• 32:22
  Not social justice, but I have some
• 32:25
  meaning usually there was usually a lot of meaning about around mob mentality and
• 32:31
  And
• 32:32
  And that that sort of like was the subtext of a particular
• 32:35
  uh
• 32:37
  You know a prank or what what do they call them on YouTube now because they're not they're not funny
• 32:43
  Social experience yeah, social experiment and also it'd be different if it was like they're not funny
• 32:48
  But they're trying to sort of like posh them up a bit like it's not a prank. It's the social experiment. That's why I am
• 32:55
  I'm throwing slime on this these people the oh that's why I'm throwing slime on these paid actors
• 33:00
  Who I'm pretending to have real people down the street. Yeah, so anyway
• 33:04
  So then when I was like overseas and I had to like pull a rabbit out of the hat for some reason
• 33:09
  I remembered this even though like like
• 33:12
  Like when I was reading the stuff about the hippies
• 33:14
  It wasn't like it wasn't like oh my god. These are my people or it wasn't like I particularly bonded or whatever
• 33:20
  I just kind of remembered it and I also remember
• 33:23
  Around the same time I do is uh
• 33:25
  I went on a holiday with some friends and they're like friends of friends here
• 33:30
  And there was this guy who would always be pulling these pranks
• 33:33
  And I just found it very interesting
• 33:35
  I was going to be and back then there was like a prank was just considered a very low-brow
• 33:40
  It wasn't like now where you can use it up or whatever
• 33:42
  Anyway, so when I was overseas that all kind of conflated my head together
• 33:46
  And I was like this is what I'm meant to do. I'm meant to do this kind of hippie
• 33:49
  Like my friend on the holiday thing where I do this thing. It's really uncomfortable
• 33:53
  I'm not really like enjoying it that much and but I'm immersed. I'm immersed in something
• 33:59
  And I guess there's a bit of complication to it because on the one hand
• 34:03
  It's cool. I'm immersing myself in somewhere like I'm not looking at people like
• 34:07
  They're in the zoo and I'm somehow
• 34:09
  You know the outside or whatever
• 34:11
  But then there's the other side to it of like you know Chinese it really appropriate if you're getting baptized
• 34:18
  I mean the answer in 2021 would be no
• 34:20
  I mean all of those things would have caused a national furore if they were done today
• 34:25
  Ah
• 34:27
  Yeah, yeah, I guess so I mean it's a really it's really hard to sort of do that sort of time travel thing or whatever
• 34:33
  Well given given the smallest slides that people
• 34:37
  Ah yeah given given that you know given that cultural appropriation is you know
• 34:42
  A sin for which you can have your entire career derailed
• 34:46
  For you to be parachuting into foreign cultures and and screwing around with them
• 34:51
  And not showing them the appropriate reverence that a white colonialist to do probably should
• 34:57
  Would land differently. I'm not saying that today's
• 34:59
  I know I reckon but no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no you see this is what I reckon I do and I probably will do it today like with my
• 35:06
  Next book or whatever like that. I'd probably try to examine that notion or whatever
• 35:12
  Yeah, and I kind of I did even did in my last book except I didn't explain it well enough
• 35:17
  So I want to give it another go or whatever where
• 35:22
  Yeah
• 35:23
  Yeah, it's it's pretty rich
• 35:26
  I mean there's so much considered considering considering considering what the world
• 35:31
  has
• 35:33
  Kind of culturally appropriated from Jewish people and when I talk about that I'm talking about real big ticket items like
• 35:40
  the Quran and the New Testament
• 35:43
  Like both how much more important and culturally influenced
• 35:47
  Influencing are things like the Quran and the New Testament right and both of those culturally appropriate
• 35:53
  From the Jewish Torah you know they just take stories from it and
• 35:59
  So anyway, so well, I mean every
• 36:01
  And so in that in that in that context I find it a bit it's like and people will go oh that's like some
• 36:08
  Like oh that's somehow an example you're giving that's not relevant to the conversation or it's like why?
• 36:13
  How how is not the fact that these two really important books that influence the world
• 36:19
  the New Testament and the Quran and that they culturally appropriated to use that expression
• 36:27
  The Torah the Jewish will how is that not a good example of
• 36:31
  Obviously, this is a very complicated issue that it's a bit rich to kind of just have some
• 36:37
  Glimbe like one sentence answer. Oh, you shouldn't culturally appropriate because well
• 36:42
  I mean glib is all we do these days
• 36:45
  John it seems like I mean cultural appropriation the whole conversation around that is is
• 36:51
  Is intentionally sort of glib and parochial and insular because from a from a broader perspective
• 36:57
  everything that progressive people value about life is
• 37:02
  Fueled by some form of cultural appropriation. We love multiculturalism and we love you know the richness of for example
• 37:08
  The way that Indians speak English and their and their unique words that they've pilfered from here and there the kinds of
• 37:14
  Cross-blending of cuisines that has created all of the world's greatest
• 37:19
  Cooking and stuff like all of the it's the it's the exciting mishmash of and the
• 37:24
  I don't even I'd be ready
• 37:26
  Yeah, I kind of rich. I'd take it in a slightly different way
• 37:30
  I mean what you're saying is true or whatever, but I'd
• 37:33
  I'd kind of be a bit more
• 37:35
  What do you call it a bit more kind of going up for the going into battle or whatever like that where you know how everyone thinks
• 37:41
  They don't have an accent and everyone else has an accent. Mm-hmm
• 37:45
  So everyone's got an accent. I don't have an accent to whatever it's like I feel like
• 37:51
  people
• 37:53
  don't know how much
• 37:55
  Their existence is cultural appropriation and yeah, they're they're aware of everyone like for instance like if anyone's a hyphenated American
• 38:03
  Uh
• 38:05
  Like well you're speaking English and
• 38:09
  So when I say that it's like
• 38:11
  That let me phrase that slightly differently that they're already bending
• 38:15
  Cultures even if they're part of it. So for instance if you're a
• 38:19
  Uh, like to say just so who who has the right to perform Milan that
• 38:23
  uh
• 38:24
  That Chinese
• 38:26
  story or whatever and
• 38:29
  Already if you're performing in English like if you're like a Chinese
• 38:34
  American you're performing it in English and therefore
• 38:37
  Which is cool
• 38:40
  And that's just like
• 38:42
  You have an accent is what I'm saying. He's like like your your your your already bending this thing that wasn't originally like that
• 38:51
  Yeah, which just which she's just it's not like a big dramatic statement
• 38:55
  It's just I'm just saying everyone's got an accent and everyone's
• 39:00
  And everyone is engaged in cultural appropriation. I mean it depends how far back you go like Kim Kardashian got in hot water for wearing her hair in braids
• 39:07
  Because that's an African American thing and she's pilfering African American culture
• 39:11
  But the African Americans didn't invent hair braids that came from like the Egyptians had hair braids
• 39:15
  So the African Americans were culturally appropriating it from
• 39:18
  I guess I guess my I guess my thing is more I find it with this 200 countries
• 39:24
  On earth
• 39:26
  And I'm not sure why Americans
• 39:29
  Get to make these rules. It's like it's I know there's a real a bit of a complex thought, but I feel like these conversations are
• 39:37
  Not American cultural imperialism, but kind of it's like you have these people in America and they set the scene of
• 39:43
  And set the table for
• 39:47
  These issues where I want to hear I want to hear what Remanians
• 39:52
  Yeah, I want to hear what black Australians think and yeah
• 39:58
  And I was going to hear what actual black Americans think
• 40:03
  As well as black Americans because so much of this is
• 40:07
  I'm very small educated cohort of white university educated elites
• 40:13
  Yeah, yeah, I mean I'm not just I guess what I I just I just
• 40:19
  find it weird that
• 40:22
  Americans just get to like yeah, it's like I say I want to hear what black Australians have to say
• 40:28
  You know like then Americans like and to give you like a for instance of there's something here is that
• 40:35
  I know these uh, I know there's been some there was tension one time when
• 40:42
  uh
• 40:43
  It was probably like a couple of decades ago now where
• 40:47
  These uh, there's this black American group quite radical called the
• 40:52
  Nation of Islam and they came to Australia some of them as missionaries and they went into Americans group
• 40:59
  Yeah, and they went into like and at least one Aboriginal community because this is where I heard the story and it was like
• 41:04
  Oh, well, you know
• 41:06
  You should you know join us because we've got the same struggle
• 41:10
  And they just felt this was very foreign to them
• 41:13
  He should have it's like this American thing was very foreign to them
• 41:16
  And I mean the other thing I always think about is young
• 41:19
  So go I saw this documentary about this
• 41:23
  Uh, punk
• 41:25
  Uh, uh, uh, were they punk?
• 41:28
  Well, were they heavy metal maybe and they'll uh, they'll Pakistani Americans
• 41:32
  They Muslim Americans and they were in a
• 41:34
  A heavy metal band and this was a couple of decades ago and so it was
• 41:38
  Close to 9-11 so things were a bit more like with the whole Muslim thing was a bit more heated than maybe it is now or whatever
• 41:45
  But anyway, so their whole schtick one of the whole schtick but their angle was like almost like we're not Americans
• 41:51
  Where Pakistan is or where Muslims or whatever and we're having heavy metal band and that that's how they kind of had this
• 41:58
  uh internal perception of themselves and
• 42:02
  You know where where that where Pakistani in this American world or whatever like that in this American scene or whatever this white scene or whatever
• 42:10
  Cool cool fine, but anyway at the end of the documentary they go to Pakistan
• 42:15
  You know because they had like you know, they hadn't been there though like kids of
• 42:18
  Of immigrants or whatever and then when they're in Pakistan they're just being they're just acting and they're just being treated like
• 42:25
  Any other loud mouth American who comes there
• 42:27
  It's not like the Pakistani people there are there. Oh come how brothers come alive
• 42:32
  It's like they just loud mouth Americans. Yeah, yeah covering around or whatever. Yeah, so yeah, there's American American Americans never a really
• 42:43
  They're essentially not really a lot of acknowledgement from hyphenated Americans that they're Americans and that has
• 42:50
  Some impact on things in their worldview and their
• 42:54
  Culture and in I guess if it's
• 42:57
  If they're gonna if we're gonna live in a world about world who has the right to say this or that is like well
• 43:03
  Your American like maybe maybe maybe maybe if we're gonna live in this world where it's like with certain identities
• 43:09
  Me and you can't say oh that you should be a bit more
• 43:12
  apprehensive about just
• 43:15
  Squawking maybe
• 43:17
  Having Americanness in you should be one of those identities where you know
• 43:21
  But where it's like well hang on I'm an American and we have cultural dominance around the world so maybe
• 43:28
  Maybe that should be in the mix when you mean maybe we should tone down the thought policing of the rest of the world
• 43:35
  Like dragging the rest of the world into our own domestic culture wars and universalizing our experience as if it was well
• 43:41
  Well, no, just kind of being aware. It's like just I'm kind of like playing by the rules that are set out where it's like
• 43:47
  Well, if you've got this certain identity or that identity you should um
• 43:52
  You know, you should be kind of just not just not just blab all the time
• 43:56
  You should understand that you're coming from a place of privilege if you've got this identity that identity that identity
• 44:00
  I'd say okay cool and let's add American to that
• 44:03
  It doesn't mean Americans shouldn't talk or whatever, but it's just like there should be some acknowledgement that like
• 44:09
  The it for decades. It's like it's been it's like a cultural steamroller around the world
• 44:15
  um
• 44:16
  So which is cool like they've won in the marketplace of ideas and I obviously love American culture, but
• 44:23
  Anyway, blah
• 44:25
  How do I mean, it's interesting. I love the point. It's interesting. How do you feel about the identity driven nature of
• 44:34
  Conversation the fact of that
• 44:36
  You know, I just try to what made my own thing or whatever like because there's obviously truth in things
• 44:41
  So it's really hard to my my book puff piece
• 44:46
  Which is about how a part of what one of the three does not like a big thing in the book or whatever
• 44:52
  But it's talking about how cuz Philip Morrison Melbrooke people how they
• 44:56
  managed to
• 44:58
  Launch this new product to know
• 45:01
  apparent
• 45:03
  Notice
• 45:04
  Let alone criticism and it's this new product and just I mean it's it's not it's not a vape
• 45:10
  It's this thing that's a cigarette, but they've rebranded it is not a cigarette and it's been like
• 45:15
  They've managed to weave around the ban on menthol cigarettes in Europe
• 45:20
  By launching this thing. It's got a heat stick
• 45:23
  Which is tobacco-ruled in paper with a filter at one end that you plant between your lips in hailing nicotine
• 45:28
  And tobacco into your lungs and then exhaling this thing that kind of looks a lot like smoke and has smoke constituents in it
• 45:34
  Anyway, but regardless like I'm talking about like why
• 45:40
  Why is this thing that's really consequential
• 45:43
  Because it was the beginning of the end for Philip Morris across Europe the menthol cigarettes last year were banned and
• 45:51
  This and the European Parliament was going to go on
• 45:55
  Presumably to ban all cigarettes and so this was really the beginning in the end of this
• 45:59
  Huge uh the world's largest tobacco
• 46:03
  cigarette company right then they come up with this cheeky little clever way of just re-wording things and
• 46:10
  Changing a few things around the edges around the uh how you produce a cigarette
• 46:16
  And they get around it. So menthol cigarettes are banned across Europe, but menthol heat sticks aren't and so
• 46:23
  They're their game can go on where you know at the moment eight million people die a year of cigarette related injuries
• 46:30
  Or death yes, yeah cigarette related injuries for word cigarette related
• 46:37
  That's out of 52 million people die of everything around the world and out of that eight million of them is cigarettes right anyway. So they managed to
• 46:44
  Grab victory from the jaws of defeat Philip Morris and
• 46:48
  There's not like not only is it not a book written about it besides mine
• 46:52
  There's not like an article written about it
• 46:54
  There's not it's like that's not done this incredible thing
• 46:56
  There's not a tweet about it and anyway my point being is I I've been starting to look in my book. I look into
• 47:01
  Well, why is this why did why did Philip Morris just get away with this
• 47:06
  Incredibly great ruse that no one noticed and part of it was is that Philip Morris
• 47:12
  are woke and
• 47:16
  They they avoid avoid standing I think by luck there's a bit of luck to it and
• 47:23
  But they avoid stepping on these cultural landmines that are likely to draw attention and those things around identity politics
• 47:29
  For instance, so you know like there
• 47:31
  They do things. I've got an in-house LGBT in it. They
• 47:37
  Even supported the pull down of their American chapter
• 47:40
  supported the pulling down of confederate statues during dachlas matter. They frame things in
• 47:47
  The the language of today and because they do that and because that's the only framework where
• 47:53
  Uh
• 47:55
  Some young people see the world of and that means that a company can do something is
• 48:01
  Problematic and insanely sort of like something worthy of examination by social justice types, which is the continuation of
• 48:13
  The death of eight million people a year and and it's kind of what you said
• 48:19
  Yeah
• 48:21
  John about about that point because can I just ask you about the point of the deadliness of these heats sticks
• 48:27
  Isn't part isn't Philip Morris's claim that the the carcinogens are in the
• 48:34
  No, no, okay, let's talk about that, but can I just close off this point isn't the
• 48:38
  Yes, I already barely make sense when I'm
• 48:43
  But I say might so anyway, so a point I bring up in the book and it's not like a big point or whatever, but it is it's like
• 48:49
  Philip Morris have avoided these
• 48:51
  cultural landmines
• 48:54
  That are going to get you cancelled and so they can do it not only can they continue this practice, but their practice isn't something that's gonna be
• 49:02
  particularly noticed by like I talk in the book that if a Philip Morris executive
• 49:07
  was caught
• 49:08
  posting online
• 49:10
  them
• 49:11
  Shooting a lion you know on African safari
• 49:14
  Like that would be that would be a nightmare and they might lose a job, but they can be
• 49:19
  An executive in
• 49:20
  complicit in the death of eight million people a year
• 49:23
  Yeah, and somehow that sort of like avoids it, but then I also
• 49:27
  Uh
• 49:29
  And there's another ironic layer to this is because actually
• 49:34
  If you think black lives matter the
• 49:37
  Like cigarette companies and these that this is like there's one of these things where there's just different ways to look at it, but
• 49:43
  Like for instance in
• 49:45
  New Zealand
• 49:47
  Amongst the indigenous community there they're
• 49:51
  30% more likely to smoke
• 49:54
  Or is it 30 but I don't know it might even be three times as likely sorry
• 49:58
  I think it might be even three times as likely to smoke
• 50:00
  Anyway, regardless what it it's like the the smoking rate and thus
• 50:04
  The rate of indigenous people dying of cancer is at such a higher rate in a place like New Zealand
• 50:11
  And I understand like the smoking rate amongst indigenous Australians is that so it's it's sort of like it is
• 50:18
  On a deeper level on a less surface veneer level it is actually
• 50:23
  You can pretty easily cobbled together a case
• 50:27
  Philip Morris is anti-black and oh and also
• 50:33
  According to the British government because they looked into this is I think the lgbt community smokes at a much higher rate
• 50:40
  Little the non-lgbt community. So so it is ironically despite what I've just said like if you would
• 50:47
  They're not woke. They're not woke on a if you think
• 50:54
  Giving indigenous people cancer is
• 50:57
  Unwoke then Philip Morris actually are unwoke. Okay, so this now now let's jump let's throw a line under that and get into
• 51:06
  I'm gonna look back to that, but let's but yes in this big arcing circle
• 51:09
  Let's just address the elephant in the room about vaping being better for you than smoking. Well, you see you you've like
• 51:16
  um
• 51:17
  This isn't a vape so already this like what you've said there just demonstrates how brilliant Philip Morris are at
• 51:25
  muddling things so it's hard to
• 51:28
  Yeah, so clarify it for us. What's a hint what's a vape what's a cigarette?
• 51:32
  Okay, so
• 51:35
  uh a cigarette
• 51:37
  has uh tobacco leaf tobacco leaf and that's infused that's with nicotine and nicotine naturally occurs in
• 51:46
  tobacco leaf and
• 51:48
  When you light a cigarette it generates tar
• 51:53
  Uh through uh and so you're in and that and the tar
• 51:57
  generated by this tobacco leaf
• 51:59
  That's the deadly thing in a cigarette
• 52:04
  Then you've got okay. So is that that makes sense? Yep totally. Yep. So then you got vaping and with vaping
• 52:10
  Uh, yeah, you're heating up
• 52:13
  A liquid and the liquids has nicotine because you can you can extract nicotine from tobacco
• 52:19
  So you can have nicotine without the tobacco if you know what I mean. So in in a
• 52:24
  In this little inner vape
• 52:26
  You're you're heating up this liquid that contains nicotine
• 52:30
  propellant glycerol
• 52:33
  Flavorings and other ingredients and agents, but it doesn't contain
• 52:39
  Uh tobacco leaf
• 52:41
  So therefore because a vape doesn't contain tobacco leaf
• 52:45
  It doesn't generate tar
• 52:48
  So therefore a vape could say and then it's right that the most deadly thing in a cigarette the tar
• 52:54
  Isn't in a vape
• 52:56
  But then it becomes this other matter of you still are inhaling things into your body into your respiratory system
• 53:04
  and
• 53:06
  whether
• 53:07
  They're a danger even a very very dire danger that's sort of like
• 53:12
  Separate to the danger of
• 53:15
  Um, you're inhaling tar because you're not inhaling tar
• 53:17
  Yeah, anyway, there's not a healing any any burned particles because there's no combustion going on
• 53:21
  You're not inhaling the fragments of microscopic ash that come off burning something with a flame
• 53:28
  Then we get to the heat stick which is this is so what we just talked about there was vaping and that's that that's a very distinct to this
• 53:36
  Thing called a heat stick. So a heat stick is
• 53:39
  Looks just like a cigarette because it's got to its tobacco rodent paper with a filter at one end and you uh
• 53:47
  And I guess the salient point is
• 53:50
  That
• 53:51
  They uh contained tobacco leaf unlike a vape but like a cigarette so therefore
• 53:57
  They generate tar
• 53:59
  therefore
• 54:00
  The the thing that's most deadly in a cigarette is also in a heat stick
• 54:06
  What do they do? So that's how do I smoke how do I
• 54:09
  Consume so this is this is what they play this great game of misdirection. So this is what they'd say for uh
• 54:16
  they'd say that um
• 54:19
  cigarette you like with
• 54:21
  A lighter and that when it catches a light a cigarette
• 54:26
  It it goes through this process called combustion and they say that the combustion is what
• 54:32
  Creates the smoke and the smoke that goes into your body is what's
• 54:38
  Deadly in a cigarette and they so they're there at cases is what they say and then I'll do the fact check out after it
• 54:45
  They say
• 54:46
  uh with this heat stick you you you put it into this device
• 54:51
  And it looks a bit like an astronaut's pen or something it looks kind of cool
• 54:55
  And uh and then what happens is you press this button and heats up this to so it heats the tobacco
• 55:01
  To an incredible degree
• 55:03
  But they say it never actually catches a light therefore
• 55:08
  It doesn't combust and because it doesn't combust it doesn't generate
• 55:12
  Uh smoke
• 55:14
  Therefore what you're inhaling isn't smoke
• 55:17
  Therefore and usually they don't say this directly. They just let you little to come to this conclusion yourself. They say therefore it's
• 55:27
  Oh, uh less risk a less risky uh
• 55:31
  version of a cigarette because you're not inhaling smoke right I can't and already there's like 17 misdirections going on in there
• 55:39
  Uh, so I'll give you a couple of them one is I looked into
• 55:45
  what makes a
• 55:47
  cigarette like work and
• 55:50
  And these according to the American Medical Association and when you light a cigarette with a lighter it actually starts generating smoke
• 55:58
  Not when not when it catches a light
• 56:01
  And starts to combust it actually starts generating smoke using a traditional cigarette
• 56:06
  When it's heated to an incredible degree
• 56:10
  And it becomes we come so high hot and there's this little process before combustions called paralysis and that's when
• 56:17
  That's when the smoke starts generating so even on that level
• 56:21
  Philip Morris has claimed that oh hang on we've got this new thing and
• 56:26
  It doesn't catch fire and therefore it doesn't combust therefore. It's not generating smoke
• 56:31
  Doesn't that doesn't even quite map or scan because because in a traditional cigarette you don't
• 56:36
  According to scientists and it's mainstream science. It is anyone who's lit a cigar knows that the cigar begins to smoke before it begins to combust
• 56:46
  Yeah, I mean, and so then on top of that
• 56:50
  That so there's this discharge which they claim isn't smoke because it hasn't been
• 56:56
  uh generated by
• 56:59
  By fire which is already like as I said it's already like
• 57:03
  Fudge it fudgey there, but
• 57:06
  When you dig into their because even though they try to hold their cards close to their chest because they need to get this approved by government bodies
• 57:13
  Um, they have to put it in like mountains and mountains of paperwork obviously and there they often have to tell the truth or there's at least enough truth in there
• 57:23
  And they just but they just want to they want to have like two stories going like what they tell the public and then what they need to say to get to get their product approved
• 57:31
  And if you dig deep enough into that you find out that they they do acknowledge that there's smoke toxicants
• 57:38
  In this in this discharge which they claim isn't smoke they just their argument is that there's not enough of it
• 57:46
  To for it to be
• 57:47
  classified
• 57:49
  As smoke by the definition of smoke which they've made up you know what I mean so there's all that crazy
• 57:54
  But here's like one of the real
• 57:57
  Too big massive
• 57:58
  misdirections
• 58:00
  And they're so there they're so clever at making you not
• 58:04
  Look at what you should be looking at because even
• 58:07
  Even what I've just explained now I've explained it in a very different way to how Philip Morris does because all they they talk about this device this sort of
• 58:15
  Astronauts pin that I was talking about that heats up the
• 58:19
  The heat stick and they just concentrate on this and they just pitch this it's like oh we've got this device
• 58:24
  It's got an icos iqos and you know
• 58:27
  It's like nothing before because the heat doesn't light blah blah blah and it's got a light and but this is like
• 58:32
  This is their first act of misdirection because
• 58:35
  They don't they want you to concentrate on this because if you look at the heat stick the thing you slide into it
• 58:41
  You as soon as you look at that you go hang on that just looks like a cigarette
• 58:44
  So they're doing everything that the actual launch is a misdirection of trying to make you look at this
• 58:49
  Device instead and then they kind of explain they they're very quiet about the heat might like those they go oh
• 58:55
  It heats up in heat so you're putting this little tobacco unit
• 58:58
  They say they come on you they use the term tobacco unit and they try to make out like it's like this little side point
• 59:04
  Like as opposed to it's the point so that's the sort of got let's like they've got a turt
• 59:10
  But they've put it in a little miniature tesla and they want everything to look at the cool tesla and
• 59:16
  Third sitting inside
• 59:18
  Yeah exactly so it's like
• 59:19
  Already how in science that that the actual product launch is a misdirection of not not making you look at
• 59:27
  Look at the thing that they're actually launching that sort of like the yeah
• 59:31
  That's actually the saline point and so that's how the refills for the heat sticks from Philip Morris as well
• 59:36
  And do you is it one used and then you throw it away
• 59:38
  So you're basically buying packets of quasi cigarettes that need this thing to go in them
• 59:42
  You can't use a real cigarette in in the heat stick
• 59:45
  No canister no
• 59:48
  So yeah, I mean that's another reason why they do that is why they want that but anyway, so there's that but get this
• 59:53
  This is even a bigger ingenious misdirection is how smart they are and
• 59:59
  I only picked this up like I'd already handed in two drafts of my book to the publisher
• 1:00:04
  And then I'm like driving I'm going goddamn
• 1:00:06
  They've got me again or whatever and this is how
• 1:00:10
  They got me again and luckily I got to write the third draft is so philomorous does this whole thing about how
• 1:00:15
  They're looking to a smoke-free future
• 1:00:17
  And the reason they say that is because they claim this device doesn't generate smoke which it does
• 1:00:21
  But let's pretend let's pretend it doesn't right and and their argument is that
• 1:00:25
  The reason why you should trust us and we're moving away from cigarettes and where we're now a health enterprise is because
• 1:00:31
  You see the the thing that kills you in a cigarette is a smoke and this doesn't generate smoke
• 1:00:35
  Let's let's let's pretend that's the truth. It doesn't generate smoke right. Let's go along with their reality right
• 1:00:40
  So I'm driving along and I'm going hang on
• 1:00:43
  That's both true and also a
• 1:00:46
  massive misdirection at the same time because what it is is
• 1:00:50
  What kills you in a cigarette is smoke but more specifically what kills you in a cigarette is
• 1:00:54
  The tar in the smoke so therefore the question isn't
• 1:00:58
  I'll does this new heechstick
• 1:01:01
  generate smoke
• 1:01:03
  It's the question is does this new heechstick generate tar and
• 1:01:07
  so
• 1:01:09
  Let's go along with their reality of like this doesn't generate smoke. It's like well who cares if it's generating the tar
• 1:01:14
  That is the reason a cigarettes deadly in the first place and yes
• 1:01:18
  This does generate tar so like they did they did they're just so brilliant at these
• 1:01:25
  Misdirections and of course the other thing is where
• 1:01:28
  People get people like to go on these conversations about and are like oh is this but isn't anything better than a cigarette and
• 1:01:36
  And isn't it like got lower carcinogens or something like that or
• 1:01:41
  And everything they say by the way is like you've got to be really
• 1:01:45
  It's usually very tricky so but but even if you took them at face value again very late on when I was writing this book
• 1:01:51
  I was thinking to myself
• 1:01:54
  Why do people hate cigarettes? It's like oh
• 1:01:57
  It's because they give you cancer and so really the only question to Philip Morris. That's relevant with this new product
• 1:02:03
  It's not like is this smoke is this tar is this is this a cigarette or does this have lower carcinogens or whatever it is
• 1:02:12
  Really the only question that's relevant is will this give me cancer
• 1:02:18
  Or will this not give me cancer? Yeah in the way your Melbro cigarettes give me cancer
• 1:02:24
  And I got on to a science zoom with them
• 1:02:27
  And I asked the question and because no one's interested in this topic for whatever reason
• 1:02:33
  I you know I could go to these so I could get my question answer because no one else is asking really asking questions
• 1:02:39
  And I got them for the first time because I guess they didn't really think it through the consequence of answering this question
• 1:02:44
  Because no one's asked them before and I said I said will this give me
• 1:02:49
  I asked the question what way even framed it the way just framed it to yours and tricky
• 1:02:52
  I said the reason people hate cigarettes is because they give you cancer will this not give me cancer the same cancer
• 1:02:57
  Like Melbro or whatever and and the woman from Philip Morris starts off with a lot of oh
• 1:03:03
  We found that there's 95% less this and that probably
• 1:03:07
  And then but then she wraps it up by going when it comes to your specific question of how this effects
• 1:03:14
  cancer
• 1:03:15
  We haven't done research into that you know like the reason
• 1:03:18
  I mean we're gonna start they can't because it takes decades to show up
• 1:03:21
  I mean you did you need you need human trials to last over generation in order to know man
• 1:03:28
  I can't believe I can't believe that's your outtake on this is like like Philip Morris
• 1:03:34
  And poor Philip Morris that's not what David against July has gone saffron is like
• 1:03:40
  It's because they're so ethical
• 1:03:42
  Philip Morris don't want to make a call on whether this product gives him cancer
• 1:03:47
  Because I want to they want to cross dot their eyes and cross their teeth and make sure what they're saying is very truthful after
• 1:03:54
  You know, you know doing years and years of research
• 1:03:57
  No, I mean the the thing about cigarettes is also not just cancer
• 1:04:00
  It's it's I mean it's that it gives you massively higher risk of heart disease and of all and of stroke
• 1:04:05
  And of a whole bunch of other things which seem to be related to your lungs being unable to
• 1:04:10
  To get oxygen into your system as effectively as they otherwise would and you would imagine that your lungs being coated in tar
• 1:04:17
  Would impede all of those processes
• 1:04:20
  Pretty badly if there is no combustible material
• 1:04:22
  But I'm just making the point that of course you're not gonna get a straight answer out of a multinational corporation
• 1:04:27
  That's been hiding behind
• 1:04:29
  The you know the book behind manufactured uncertainty
• 1:04:32
  For generations because they're able to manufacture the same uncertainty right here until we've had guinea pigs human guinea
• 1:04:39
  Pigs roll it out in their real lives. Where is that where are they allowed so they're forbidden in Australia
• 1:04:47
  But I've got one because I'm edgy and I bought an illegal one
• 1:04:51
  So so if suddenly you hear sirens and my door being broken down
• 1:04:55
  It's because the cops are coming in because I've got my illegal
• 1:04:58
  I cost the illegal Jew with his stash of which I bought with a from the boot
• 1:05:02
  I didn't like order it from overseas that would have been like not very dynamic for a book
• 1:05:07
  I I got in a car park at night and don't in don cast a Melbourne out of the boot of a car from this
• 1:05:14
  dude who imported them
• 1:05:16
  I think every couple of months he went to
• 1:05:19
  Japan and he came back with a suitcase filled with eye cosses. That's the heating device and he sticks
• 1:05:26
  But so one of these things being used
• 1:05:29
  Well that they're legal in across Europe because that's how they weevil or weevil
• 1:05:35
  Weevil weevil that's a combination of weaving and being a weevil a weevil
• 1:05:41
  by weeviling around the law there that
• 1:05:44
  they've been
• 1:05:45
  permitted in America by their
• 1:05:49
  And so this has all happened
• 1:05:52
  Invisibly in because our eyes haven't been on it and so much works in Philip Morris's favor
• 1:05:58
  I my only conclusion is that God really likes Philip Morris
• 1:06:02
  Because like for instance
• 1:06:03
  In America because kids were dying and others were ending up in hospital because they were
• 1:06:09
  inhaling black market
• 1:06:12
  vake juice
• 1:06:13
  Yeah, and so you I'm sure lots of people listening remember that they go well that was a big new story
• 1:06:18
  Like you know, it's like so there's a lot of eyes on vaping and
• 1:06:23
  But what I just unbelievable I can't believe they're luck so whilst all eyes are on that
• 1:06:29
  Like in America the federal drug administration in America permitted
• 1:06:35
  The
• 1:06:36
  This the heatstick and the icos and so that's and and they've already started building dedicated stores to sell this
• 1:06:44
  And no one's noticed even though like there's all this that should be something totally examined and constant
• 1:06:50
  And it's like it's even on the on the level of well hang on if you're worried about vaping
• 1:06:54
  God damn he should be worried about this it's like whether you're worried about vaping you're not worried about vaping
• 1:06:59
  You should be worried about this and and it isn't and also there's it has there's lots of little
• 1:07:04
  Stings in the tail and tangles like for instance at the moment
• 1:07:08
  The the US government or so branches of the US government the federal drug administration is looking at whether to
• 1:07:15
  Really crack down on vaping
• 1:07:18
  And in some in in America in some ways that's gonna serve Philip Morris's purposes because
• 1:07:23
  It's like they've got into the castle and now they're drawing you know with their icos and heatstick and now it's like the draw bridge is going up again
• 1:07:30
  So and it's a very tangled thing that's hard to give a simple story because for instance
• 1:07:37
  Philip Morris in America or their parent company is invested in a vape company there
• 1:07:44
  Called jewel, but I would say my op-ed is when push comes to shove ultimately Philip Morris
• 1:07:52
  uh
• 1:07:53
  Their future they see their future in tobacco and
• 1:07:56
  So things like the icos and the heatstick which we've been talking about that's really what their future is and
• 1:08:03
  Then dabbling into vaping is pure vaping is more a
• 1:08:08
  There is huge behemoth with all these different, you know people doing different things or whatever
• 1:08:12
  So
• 1:08:13
  Yeah, of course. I've got their fingers in vaping a little bit or whatever, but ultimately
• 1:08:18
  Ultimately they would want vaping's air competitor and like their dreamers come true in Japan in Japan vaping is forbidden
• 1:08:26
  But these heatsticks and icos are permitted and that's really yeah, so the reason Philip Morris would want to pardon
• 1:08:34
  What's the thinking behind that?
• 1:08:36
  Well, there's different laws in different countries. So
• 1:08:40
  One thing that's like just just shows how brilliant and tangled Philip Morris is is depend
• 1:08:46
  In some countries they essentially argue. I'm of course I'm simplifying this
• 1:08:50
  But they essentially argue that seeing cigarettes are legal
• 1:08:55
  How can this not be legal right so similar to a cigarette and
• 1:08:59
  Did they go and that's their argument that's an argument they made in Australia they
• 1:09:06
  It didn't work or whatever, but where where so so when they were trying to get this introduced in Australia
• 1:09:10
  It wasn't like hey vaping and this should be introduced. No, no, no, it wasn't that it was like this is heated tobacco
• 1:09:16
  It's tobacco and you and tobacco is already legal and then they then they have this tangled
• 1:09:21
  argument where they're like how can you ethically
• 1:09:26
  Approved cigarettes, but not this when we say this is
• 1:09:30
  How can you live with yourself a Australian government risk of yet again sounding like a shill for Philip Morris
• 1:09:36
  Got a logical point there, right?
• 1:09:39
  No
• 1:09:48
  No, no, this is they don't have a logical point there. I'd say that have a
• 1:09:52
  An arguable point if they were trying to get a vape approved. This isn't a vape it's a cigarette so their whole thing is like
• 1:09:58
  but cigarettes illegal. Oh cigarettes illegal so why oh cool yeah okay that's fine. That's what I'm
• 1:10:04
  saying. If you have a logical point that to say that if you want to if this category of product
• 1:10:09
  should be illegal then outlaw cigarettes and if you're not going to outlaw cigarettes then for
• 1:10:13
  the sake of consistency you have to approve this product. Well okay well yeah that's true that's
• 1:10:18
  one way of looking at another way of looking at though is that when cigarettes were approved
• 1:10:23
  were the different it's basically the horse is bolted so cigarettes are are approved
• 1:10:30
  and if but if a cigarette direct was introduced today they wouldn't be approved and in fact now we
• 1:10:35
  have the perfect test case to do that with the ecstic which is a cigarette being introduced today
• 1:10:40
  so yeah I don't think it's as hypocritical like like I definitely can be seen as that like like to
• 1:10:46
  make sense what your argument is. I want to I want to I want to look back to the bigger question
• 1:10:50
  that you raised that I said we'd come back to about the sort of corporate hypocrisy in presenting
• 1:10:55
  themselves as good corporate citizens at the same time as they are not only unleashing this product
• 1:11:01
  which they know is going to kill people or they strongly suspect but they're also doing it in such
• 1:11:05
  a way that overwhelmingly targets disadvantaged people people of color if First Nations people and
• 1:11:11
  so on because those people smoke more than the white liberal elites who congratulate corporations on
• 1:11:18
  their work policies do you know you mentioned LGBT people there was also it amused me like this
• 1:11:25
  past pride I saw a comparison of the the social media front pages of a bunch of corporations
• 1:11:33
  which on pride in like the United States and Australia and Europe all had like rainbow flags
• 1:11:39
  and everything and then you look at the pages in Middle Eastern countries of the same corporations
• 1:11:44
  and they're completely silent about pride of course just showing up the total cynicism and
• 1:11:49
  hypocrisy like if you care about gay rights then you should promote gay rights to people who don't
• 1:11:53
  care about gay rights not to the populations that you know are already on board if you're actually
• 1:11:57
  taking a stand and then sticking up for something then stick up for it where it hurts not where it
• 1:12:01
  only advantages your bottom line and similarly I mean Apple have you do you know Antonio Garcia Martinez
• 1:12:08
  who he's a he wrote a book called Chaos Monkeys he was a Facebook executive and he got hired by
• 1:12:15
  Apple earlier this year and then a campaign he was he was basically canceled and fired from Apple
• 1:12:22
  because someone accepted a paragraph from his Chaos Monkeys which was a memoir about his time
• 1:12:28
  at Facebook and in Silicon Valley which was a kind of overblown satire of Silicon Valley I'm
• 1:12:33
  only talking about him because he reminds me a bit of you just in terms of being an independent
• 1:12:38
  thinker someone who doesn't follow the rules someone who doesn't care about what other people you
• 1:12:42
  know fitting into the box that other people have set up for them and he had a passage in this book
• 1:12:47
  that was sort of snide about Silicon Valley women and saying that like there's this kind of
• 1:12:53
  sort of power hungry trashy type of female in Silicon Valley and that was regarded as being
• 1:13:00
  anti feminist and so there was a big campaign by Apple employees that massage you know sexism
• 1:13:07
  is not welcome here and so on so he was fired as an Apple executive basically before his tenure
• 1:13:13
  had even begun and his point was this is a company that employs massive like slave labor across
• 1:13:20
  China putting together these devices that doesn't give a shit about human rights wherever it encounters
• 1:13:26
  them and it feels good about itself because it can't take a joke and doesn't understand the
• 1:13:32
  satirical point that I was making in a novel that was slightly edgy and sexist and I wonder whether
• 1:13:37
  you have thoughts about this disparity between the our kind of public fixation on doing the right
• 1:13:44
  thing as it is defined by the the current cultural consensus and turning a blind eye to the actual
• 1:13:51
  ills that corporations are unleashing on us oh yeah no no cover that in puff piece where
• 1:13:57
  that like one of the the internal journeys I go on is at the start of the book and this was
• 1:14:04
  all sincere like I was like I think we're going to get the groove of this book it's sort of isn't
• 1:14:09
  it's a thing like your you know people would see me as progressive I guess and and so it's like
• 1:14:16
  oh I knew a little David going against Goliath or whatever and then then I kind of it kind of
• 1:14:22
  I learn that that's a bit of a bygone era that's like a generation X thing they're the whole thing
• 1:14:29
  of corporations are something you should be very skeptical of is like that was when I was young
• 1:14:38
  that was it but sort of like the backdrop to the world has moved on and obviously all these things
• 1:14:43
  like I kind of have to overstate my case to sort of make my point obviously you know there's
• 1:14:49
  so many little currents and counter currents floating around so in some ways you know there are
• 1:14:54
  progressive people who are criticizing corporations or whatever so I'm sort of but but in a kind
• 1:14:59
  of a larger sense I think part of the reason is I mean you sort of touch on it there I think or
• 1:15:05
  whatever is that for my generation generation X when we were growing up like corporations were
• 1:15:11
  just seen as in this overgeneralized way we're seen as unprogressive they're seen as right wing
• 1:15:18
  I guess even and they're seen as even sort of like a bit sort of like Christian maybe or something
• 1:15:25
  like like I've just seen as this they're sort of like seen as that and it was like even if you're
• 1:15:31
  a good company you were a bad company and so they were part of an institutional power structure
• 1:15:37
  that was yeah the risks and only interested in itself and was was willing to fuck over anybody
• 1:15:42
  just like and and and and and generally generally their values were like the way they promoted
• 1:15:47
  themselves was was even if was implicit rather than explicit was very conservative values so like
• 1:15:54
  ads on TV which show traditional nuclear families for instance they would and they'll yeah
• 1:16:03
  that was like they'll conserve they'll conservative outlets in how they presented themselves
• 1:16:08
  well yes they're like like that so that so that so that so that so that so there the way they
• 1:16:14
  present themselves were like family values and patriotic and things like that and so would have
• 1:16:18
  been like totally contentious to not present yourself that way anyway so anyway but the backdrop
• 1:16:26
  for the world has changed so now the way that the world's biggest companies present themselves
• 1:16:30
  aren't that way for whatever reason for better maybe but but regardless so yeah you have like
• 1:16:36
  Google and Apple and they're like these big powerful companies and they will you know promote
• 1:16:43
  kind of like have a progressive veneer and it must have worked to a certain extent because I
• 1:16:48
  feel like compared to when I was growing up progressive aren't as instantly kind of like cynical
• 1:16:54
  and about companies like like like they were like they were and I think it is partially because
• 1:17:00
  like it's worked it's like why would you be cynical about companies when companies you know a
• 1:17:05
  fighting a fighting the good fight which I guess they are in some ways but it's just
• 1:17:10
  well they're not fighting it if they're not putting the good fight to any many where where it
• 1:17:14
  actually needs to be put you know as good energy but I guess I guess in my I guess the way I look
• 1:17:21
  at that is that's why you should be skeptical for your own sense of personal zen because it's just
• 1:17:26
  going to be so disappointed and who could be surprised by being disappointed that's what
• 1:17:32
  amazes me it's that people are surprised that corporations are only looking after their bottom
• 1:17:36
  line like how would you why would you applaud a company for firing a satirist for writing a
• 1:17:41
  funny passage as if that's noble of the company to stand up against sexism like I think everybody
• 1:17:47
  at apple and facebook now is on board that racism is bad and sexism is bad like we get that why would
• 1:17:53
  you be such a rude that you would be gullible enough to think that the executives are feeding you
• 1:17:57
  the manure that they're feeding you because they really really care about these issues that's what
• 1:18:01
  I don't I don't get there's a certain credulity sort of in in modern performative progressivism
• 1:18:08
  I mean I guess it's also it's really hard to get your bearings on
• 1:18:13
  what's online in a bubble and what's the wider world thinking if you're not amazed yeah sure
• 1:18:20
  I think it's obviously blown up what what I mean I think the things that have taken place online
• 1:18:26
  they're now having real world consequences that far outstrip their popularity amongst real people
• 1:18:31
  we're all being yeah but what I'm saying is it's like I imagine people I might be a bit simpler
• 1:18:36
  why people go along with things it's like it's the path of least resistance and it's you know
• 1:18:41
  so but it but it it it is interesting because as a as an artist who puts myself out there
• 1:18:49
  like you do really have to think about like well what what's the hill I'm meant to die on
• 1:18:53
  what what hill am I meant to die on and that's like way narrower even for someone like me but I
• 1:18:57
  guess I was always a bit contained in what like like for instance for instance I just like for
• 1:19:02
  instance wouldn't be like I would I find it really hard even like yonks together they even do
• 1:19:10
  like partisan politics or something like that like it just wasn't my jam it's like no no that's
• 1:19:14
  okay for someone else to do but I'm actually more interested in your religion no I'm interested
• 1:19:18
  in these other hypocrisies or whatever like that so but yeah you definitely recalibrate or it's
• 1:19:24
  so I read and it's like well what's the hill I'm willing to die on and so there's still
• 1:19:27
  some hill some willing to die on and you find pardon what I like to die on oh just yeah
• 1:19:37
  I'm not willing to go along with anti-Semitism just because certain people have figured out a
• 1:19:45
  woke framing for it so I'm just not willing to go along with it and I've even got in trouble
• 1:19:52
  for that because I'm just meant to go along with it I'm meant to go along with uh but what and I
• 1:19:58
  just feel a personal responsibility because in the context of Australia uh like there might be a lot
• 1:20:03
  of Jews blabbering in America on the media but not in Australia and so I just feel like I can't
• 1:20:09
  first of all it's annoying and then um then on top of that I just feel like who am I and
• 1:20:16
  I'm also just feeling like what do you mean by anti-Semitism where does that show up in your world
• 1:20:21
  the like for instance so the two places that shows up on is if you're very clever and you don't
• 1:20:31
  like Jews uh what you you recast them as not being Jews but as being white people and then you
• 1:20:38
  act really cute and as if there's no particular history to Jewish people and there's no particular
• 1:20:43
  heat to uh attacking Jews and and you're just you're almost just framing it as well
• 1:20:51
  yeah well well no that's not the like like uh yeah I'm kind of dodging around giving examples
• 1:20:59
  in in the world but like but like it would clarify things yeah sure so for instance I was told I
• 1:21:05
  actually covered this in puffees believe it or not and so yeah why don't I just talk the story
• 1:21:09
  in puffees so I was at this anti-Nazi rally in Melbourne and this person like a lefty social justice
• 1:21:17
  type was writing about me and he said uh anti-racism doesn't need any more white people to speak on
• 1:21:26
  its behalf so they had problematized to use their language me as a Jew being at an anti-Nazi
• 1:21:35
  so and anyway so then then I was like oh that's a bit strange or whatever and at the same rally
• 1:21:40
  there was like a similar thing so like these two things that were kind of similar have it anyway
• 1:21:44
  when I get back home I'm like looking at this guys I'm going to he's this guy telling me like
• 1:21:50
  that it's problematic for a Jew to fight Nazis and and then I look up and I see he's got a track record
• 1:22:00
  of for better or worse of like he's got issues with Jewish people like and for all sorts of reasons
• 1:22:05
  like his against Israel and let's not get into that or whatever it's because it's not about whether
• 1:22:09
  he's right or whatever it's more about the technique he's using and he's against uh
• 1:22:15
  uh yeah yeah who's just had these other kind of issues with Jewish people and I was like oh that's
• 1:22:18
  interesting so because there's still a lot a bit of heat in attacking Jews it's like he's
• 1:22:24
  reframe Jews as white people to sort of make that a smoother passage because obviously
• 1:22:30
  if he said what's this Jew doing here that's Israeli yeah like it just be what the hell and anyway
• 1:22:37
  so then so that happened and then I noticed that was this recurring technique of uh across the world
• 1:22:44
  now of when you had held uh like pretty toxic it shouldn't mean you weren't right when if you're
• 1:22:51
  like left-wing or if you were like a Muslim or whatever like that and you're and you're very
• 1:22:55
  attuned to how to get things done in the in the modern world is you cast you you soak up
• 1:23:01
  you erase the fact that Jews are Jews and just uh act really cute and just call them white people
• 1:23:08
  and then and then think you can get away with anything because it's like oh I'm I'm punching up
• 1:23:13
  all right and also they're colonizers too so you know you mentioned Israel but I've definitely
• 1:23:19
  heard a lot of that I was a prominent a very prominent uh Australian radio personality I was
• 1:23:27
  I was with this person and uh some news came through about Israel firing on people in Gaza or
• 1:23:34
  something and um this person spat out with such vitriol fucking Zionists with a passion the
• 1:23:42
  I mean was not I mean I felt bad for the people in Gaza as well and I have all of the
• 1:23:48
  minor issues with with Israel and but that's not the point the point is that that country's misdeeds
• 1:23:54
  have become a proxy for people to feel passionately against um the there's been a collapse or a
• 1:24:02
  conflation of one uh really problematic country is really problematic policies with the kind of
• 1:24:11
  instinctive punching up fighting on behalf of the little guy anti-colonial anti-Zionist and
• 1:24:19
  without anti-Jew yeah yeah okay yeah no but I mean just I mean obviously it's like just a
• 1:24:26
  complex thing to get into so like the two things I'd say is that yeah it's complicated and so I'm
• 1:24:31
  not really like I'm not going as narrow as that as saying oh my god it's all a trick if someone's
• 1:24:38
  criticizing the Israeli government it's actually a proxy for whatever so what I am saying is yeah
• 1:24:44
  it's complicated but then I'd add the extra layer of like everything's complicated and somehow the
• 1:24:50
  left managers not to uh you know the left managers not to kind of conflate and in fact they fight
• 1:24:58
  against it correctly you know they correctly like if if if if if anyone from another minorities
• 1:25:04
  involved in anything they go whoa whoa whoa hold our horses right okay so it's bad thing happen
• 1:25:11
  this person you mean if there's like a jihadist terrorist attack then they're quite good at
• 1:25:14
  yeah but no no no that yeah yeah yeah yeah or anything anything with any minority or whatever because
• 1:25:21
  um they uh yeah they correctly kind of go well let's hold our horses or whatever so
• 1:25:26
  so so it's not it's not it's not novel or it's not like unusual that's like oh my god there's
• 1:25:34
  there's okay I just can't I just can't not be an anti-Semite because this is this going on
• 1:25:42
  and my point my point my point being is that um in fact that what you said about the
• 1:25:52
  Jews in Israel makes it even more so for me that um if you're on the left or uh or if you're in
• 1:26:02
  uh in Muslim let's just talk about straight if you're Australian Muslim or Australian on the left
• 1:26:07
  the fact that you have such heated issues about uh Jews being in Israel that makes it even the
• 1:26:14
  more screwed up if you try that on in another country that's not Israel no no you don't get to kind
• 1:26:20
  of go well I'll Jews are just white so therefore they're also a problem in Australia as white like
• 1:26:29
  that that's got a lot of you can't you can't erase the specific the specific nature and the
• 1:26:35
  specific history of the Jews and also the specific relationship that both the left and the Muslims
• 1:26:43
  communities can have with you think you can't erase that and just kind of go oh I'm just going to
• 1:26:47
  shit on Jews and I'm going to change a word due to why and therefore get away with it I mean to get
• 1:26:54
  and if you think this is tangled and complicated probably the is the best way to I can say it that
• 1:26:58
  may be a lefty listening to understand is like imagine if someone was said to uh uh uh some
• 1:27:06
  Aboriginal people in Australia that were a fairer skin and said well no no you're just white
• 1:27:11
  I'm just gonna I'm just gonna treat you and my discussion about you and your place in Australia
• 1:27:16
  and in the world is going to be through the lens of you I know you think this aboriginal
• 1:27:20
  aboriginal stuff is important or whatever but no you're white like a lefty would never do it not
• 1:27:26
  only would not not a lefty do that but like Andrew Bolt this arch conservative in Australia who
• 1:27:33
  the left hates the main reason they hate him that starting what is that was his argument you know what
• 1:27:38
  I mean so what I'm saying is it my contention is and I am struck is you the the specific history
• 1:27:45
  including the specific recent history of Jewish people is so specific it's as specific as
• 1:27:51
  aboriginality in a in a different way that that it's just screwed up to the extreme it's a screwed
• 1:28:00
  up to the extreme to evaporate and erase uh Jewish identity but you're just white and got you know
• 1:28:10
  that's as screwed up as saying that to a fair skin aboriginal person which I know that's a very uh
• 1:28:16
  I don't think that's contentious at all and and so therefore um yeah so that's that's that's an
• 1:28:23
  aspect of like where I just refuse to like keep my head down well it seems like you know what you
• 1:28:29
  know something has happened recently in Melbourne is that an Australian business run by a Jewish guy
• 1:28:36
  was vandalized by presumed left wing people where uh it was uh said that always part of an
• 1:28:45
  international Zionist conspiracy because whatever so so and they're like the left says no it's
• 1:28:53
  so weird being a Jew even in Australia because if it gets did our weirdities and our specificities
• 1:28:59
  is if neo Nazis did exactly the same thing put exactly the same posters up accusing a local
• 1:29:06
  Jew of being part of any chat with Zionist conspiracy then the left would all stand up for him
• 1:29:10
  and go my god we've got this neo Nazi problem in Australia but then you can put up exactly the same
• 1:29:15
  posters from the left and and so this isn't like a thought experiment this happened in my hometown
• 1:29:22
  and um and then this leading left wing journal publish an article explaining why
• 1:29:30
  vandalizing a Jewish business and of course a fudge around the language of it is uh
• 1:29:37
  is not problematic for this and i i'm just like nah not going along with that i don't care
• 1:29:41
  and also i kind of also find i try to take advantage of the fact that i have a bit of
• 1:29:47
  capital because i've got a track record and so people are a bit i do get away with a bit more
• 1:29:53
  a bit more pushing back or whatever because and i it's like yep i'm going to i'll
• 1:29:59
  i'll push back against that no i'm not going to go along with it's okay to harass Jewish
• 1:30:03
  shop owners in my hometown yeah and i i have paid for that by the way but where people are just
• 1:30:09
  really people did not like you bringing up i did my last book about extremist in Australia like 95%
• 1:30:16
  of the book is stick making fun of the far right and there islamophobia for instance right
• 1:30:23
  but but also it looked into the tangles of things and so i talk about
• 1:30:27
  it's fascinating i talk about uh i Jewish people who kind of make these unwise you know connections
• 1:30:36
  with the far right to they're like oh well i don't like Muslims and they don't like Muslims
• 1:30:40
  so even though they also don't even though they don't they also don't like Jews i'm going to
• 1:30:44
  link up with them so it's kind of trust me at all it does not have your back yeah and then
• 1:30:48
  then i but my book also looked at at the changing backdrop where like the Pauline Hansen scene has
• 1:30:55
  adapted to multiculturalism so just bizarrely you have people who would have been rejected by the
• 1:31:01
  Pauline Hansen crowd 20 years ago suddenly for you know you've got you know you've got african
• 1:31:08
  Australians and Chinese Australians and others that sort of involved in that movement offer
• 1:31:14
  sometimes a reason for that is because they're evangelical Christians and they don't like Muslims
• 1:31:18
  they're like oh well Pauline Hansen also doesn't like Muslims that's showing up or whatever
• 1:31:23
  anyway so my book also did stick about that or whatever and then my book did look at
• 1:31:28
  Muslim anti-Semitism in Australia like and just very lightly very in a very coded way or whatever
• 1:31:34
  like that people do not like that man like people do not like that and i've paid where like just the most
• 1:31:44
  uh like people out for vengeance it's like and i'm just like well okay fine go out for vengeance
• 1:31:49
  i don't care well there are the there are the sort of right kind of minorities and the wrong kind
• 1:31:54
  of minorities and there's there's just there is a sense i think that you're backing the wrong
• 1:32:00
  horse if you're backing Jews and you're backing the right horse in terms of backing the correct
• 1:32:04
  oppressed minority if you're backing Muslims um oh yeah but that's that's fine for them you see
• 1:32:10
  i just cannot i cannot believe let me just let me just finish yeah it reminds me of what you
• 1:32:14
  were saying earlier john about the the the lack of self awareness of Americans imposing their
• 1:32:20
  culture war conversations on the rest of the world or having no sort of self self regard for
• 1:32:27
  their own privileged status in guiding the global conversation and similarly there is a there's
• 1:32:34
  a way that we are forced to understand Israel and Palestine it that sort of uses the Jews as a proxy
• 1:32:43
  for all of the sins of white people over the centuries because they are the colonizers and the poor
• 1:32:49
  brown people are the oppressed and that maps perfectly it's sort of a key into the lock of our
• 1:32:55
  own collective guilt about what we've done to indigenous people and what we've done through
• 1:32:59
  British colonialism and and so on and i think there's a parallel there that there's a there's a
• 1:33:05
  similar kind of super imposition of a complicated situation in the middle east onto an easy template
• 1:33:11
  that we understand in which the Jews are the aggressors and it kind of flattens or ignores or
• 1:33:16
  erases the five thousand years of history and set all of a sudden these this community that has
• 1:33:21
  very very very long ties in this place is regarded as if it was the british empire coming into india
• 1:33:28
  yeah well i mean Jesus like you bring up a deal you know i've only got five or ten minutes left
• 1:33:34
  so so take that wherever you will and if you want to say something else oh no no
• 1:33:38
  first of all from my point of view i started getting really furious with
• 1:33:42
  er or animated by left-wing attitudes to Jews not because of Israel because but rather it because
• 1:33:49
  i went along with their reality where they said because they're sure as they said oh there's
• 1:33:53
  nothing everything about the Jews that we have a problem with he's just got to do with the
• 1:33:57
  Israel Palestine conflict right so i was like oh that's like a complicated conflict or whatever
• 1:34:01
  but you know like you know like hey fine you know kind of but definitely like it's not like
• 1:34:07
  i think someone's mad if they're kind of their interpretation of that is you know they're
• 1:34:13
  going to have a they're going to protest or you know have issues and bring up things about the
• 1:34:19
  Israeli government or whatever right but then it was it was when it was when there was the gear
• 1:34:23
  shift and it was when i was in my last book where i realized it's bullshit that that the like
• 1:34:28
  for instance this dude who's deliberately acting cute and obtuse and saying that it's problematic
• 1:34:36
  for Jews to be not only for Jews to be wherever they want to be in Melbourne but specifically having
• 1:34:43
  such a toxic attitude to Jewish people that he's come up with his tangled bullshit that it's
• 1:34:49
  problematic for a Jew to be at an anti-Nazi rally protesting Nazis because he's white and then
• 1:34:55
  and then when i kind of go online and see that this guy or by the way he's going on to be a writer
• 1:34:59
  who writes about racism for sbs by the way and these people i'm talking about it they're not like
• 1:35:03
  randoms on twitter they're like they're my cool taste makers cultural taste makers so and when i
• 1:35:09
  saw that he was using Jewish whiteness to attack Jews in a not in Israel so Jewish whiteness
• 1:35:19
  to attack Jews in Australia i was like well hang on and then when then when i saw that he was
• 1:35:24
  reflecting a broader thing among some aspects of the hard left i was like i'll say you're lying
• 1:35:30
  so you were lying that whole time saying your problem with the Jews for the about the
• 1:35:35
  Israel Palestine thing because now you've got this new thing where Jews are a problem
• 1:35:40
  outside of Israel for things that have nothing to do with the Israel Palestine conflict so i was
• 1:35:46
  like really annoyed and then then yeah they're kind of like anti-Semitism is so slippery but
• 1:35:54
  only in a way that all racism is so like to give you a comparison you know like when a black person
• 1:36:01
  says hey i was followed i can't i was followed you know through a shopping center because i'm black
• 1:36:07
  or whatever and people are like approve it how do you know they didn't follow a white person before
• 1:36:12
  you and then it's like and it's like well i guess how can you what it is like and then but the
• 1:36:18
  black person would be going listen man it's happened 50 times so i know what the hell is going on
• 1:36:23
  and like uh and and so anti-Semitism is like like that is that like it's so slippery and scummy
• 1:36:34
  and like like for instance oh what's wrong what's wrong with this guy saying it's problematic
• 1:36:41
  for you as a white person to be at an anti-Nazi rally like it's so slippery and scumbagery
• 1:36:46
  and it's really the parallels there and people will find that contentious that i'm comparing
• 1:36:51
  those racisms but i think in their slipperiness and the way that i think it's the same thing
• 1:36:58
  because one other one thing i've really learned uh is because people like present their anti-Semitism
• 1:37:07
  like in a woke way like oh it's because you're white oh god those and it's always like this woke
• 1:37:14
  argument on things but okay fine but this is what when you pull out the lens
• 1:37:20
  is that all race most racist rhetoric is woke is it is it always pitching itself as woke
• 1:37:27
  like when i was hanging out with these far right racists against muslims they all frame their
• 1:37:35
  their anti-Islamian woke language they say oh listen they're sexist
• 1:37:41
  what why like we're in a modern culture and they're sexist they put women in burgers like they
• 1:37:46
  it's and that's not just against racism against muslims it's uh when they were lynching black
• 1:37:51
  Americans i'd wrote a book called murder and Mississippi uh said in Mississippi there was a non-fiction
• 1:37:58
  about true crime and it involved the white supremacist so i got to look into the history of
• 1:38:01
  Mississippi and lynchings were pitched as woke back in the old they really were it was like
• 1:38:08
  women shouldn't have to suffer uh uh being sexually harassed uh by by black men and these black
• 1:38:17
  people are sexually harassing women at a higher rate like this bullshit by the way but this is
• 1:38:22
  what i'm saying is they were pitching lynching as being woke as being feminine as the lynchings
• 1:38:30
  hashtag believe all women and and so all racism racist rhetoric bends into like i'm doing this
• 1:38:39
  for a social justice reason i've been right i've been i'm forced to uh be against muslims in
• 1:38:46
  australia and to want to stop muslim immigration because i care so much about uh burgers or
• 1:38:52
  like women are being or even saying i care so much about Jews and i know they're racist against
• 1:38:57
  Jews or i care so much about they throw gay people off buildings like what i was going to say that
• 1:39:02
  you're homophobic pastors being islamophobic because they're supposedly sticking up for the gays
• 1:39:09
  being thrown off buildings yeah so with that backdrop it's like yeah i get it you're you're doing
• 1:39:14
  what all assholes do when they try to demonize the others and uh yeah blah it's very interesting
• 1:39:25
  john you're uh what do you think where do you think all this goes where do you think we end up with
• 1:39:30
  all this not specifically the anti-semitism question but all of the royaling culture war
• 1:39:34
  attentions that we have been talking about because on some days i wake up optimistic and i think
• 1:39:40
  as you sort of alluded to earlier that this is just a storm in a teacup on twitter and i should just
• 1:39:45
  shut down my twitter and i'll be a happier person and then other times i think that the fabric of
• 1:39:51
  liberal democracy and this the consensus that we've established so since the enlightenment is
• 1:39:56
  coming apart and we're all just going to end up in well i've no answer to that but i do have
• 1:40:01
  but i have an answer to that so my answer to that is that we're never at the end of history
• 1:40:07
  and at every moment we always think that this is like this is the world forever and it never is
• 1:40:13
  i mean i don't know how old you are but like just the realities of the world that have changed
• 1:40:18
  in my lifetime is like the gear shifts have been incredible and so i find it very difficult to
• 1:40:24
  believe that we're at the end of history and with the way the world is perceived man all right on
• 1:40:34
  that for on that on that note full of foreboding and portent i will i will i will crown you as the
• 1:40:41
  loveliest Jewish in Australia and thank you John the the new book shilled a new book for a moment
• 1:40:48
  so people can jump on to a piece and by the way it's really hilarious puff piece it's like a
• 1:40:53
  hilarious adventure it's not like this it's it's me kind of getting into deep trying to
• 1:41:00
  you know discover all this stuff about philip morris the milbow people it's got puff piece
• 1:41:04
  how philip morris set vaping alike light and burnt down the english language but you know
• 1:41:10
  just puff piece that's the big thing on the cover good curious you're an aerial treasure audio book
• 1:41:15
  thanks a bit for this great talk to you thanks mate bye bye