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Transcript

James Small - Part 1 · Rusty's Garage

• 0:02
  A listener production.
• 0:12
  I'm automotive commentator and journalist Greg Rust, and this is Rusty's Garage.
• 0:27
  For this episode, I'm at home.
• 0:29
  My guest, well, he's in Charlotte, North Carolina, the hub of motorsport and NASCAR in particular in the United States, almost 16,000 k's away from me.
• 0:40
  He's a proud Aussie who now calls America home, but he's never changed.
• 0:45
  Still very much with his feet on the ground, despite being in the record books as the first Australian to win races as a crew chief in the highest level of NASCAR.
• 0:54
  Pretty cool achievement, that.
• 0:56
  The Cup Series is the pinnacle for many.
• 0:59
  Formula One, IndyCar or World Rally would arguably be the only other forms of motorsport that you could put on a similar level.
• 1:06
  James Small is a driven bloke who could have absolutely made it as a racer, which is in part why he's so good at what he does now.
• 1:09
  James Small is a driven bloke who could have absolutely made it as a racer, which is in part why he's so good at what he does now.
• 1:17
  you'll hear about how hard it was to let go and get a sense of just how clever he is.
• 1:23
  James studied engineering, has a thirst for vehicle dynamics, and he's competitive.
• 1:29
  Pretty good combo.
• 1:30
  Nowadays, he works for one of the big teams, Joe Gibbs Racing, owned by the legendary NFL coach.
• 1:37
  There he goes.
• 1:38
  He's won the Super Bowl with Stock Car Racing, Joe.
• 1:40
  The path there took him via another iconic team in Richard Childress Racing, or RCR.
• 1:46
  James was successful in supercars before he headed over, playing a significant part in a Bathurst win for Ford Performance Racing and making a brave but brilliant call on the day that Lee Holdsworth would enter that select club of winners.
• 2:03
  You can hear Lee's recollections of that in his episode in the Rusty's Garage Library.
• 2:09
  A quick thanks to some friends and colleagues for little bits of intel for this discussion.
• 2:14
  To Lee Diffie, Jack Perkins, Stephen Richards, Tim Hodges and my producer Tom Dullard, who helped remind me of James's intensity.
• 2:24
  commitment, the sacrifices he's made along the way, a couple of cool backstories and the immense pride when James took over from his Canadian colleague Cole Hearn as crew chief for the likeable Martin Truex Jr. We begin with a window into his early life and the small family's deep connection to racing.
• 2:45
  It's no wonder he's ended up in NASCAR.
• 2:50
  James, welcome.
• 2:51
  This is awesome, mate, that we get to catch up.
• 2:54
  Ken, I love to start these conversations with a little something that paints a picture for listeners of early life, where you grew up, and I know the answer to this, but the kind of early motor racing influences for you.
• 3:07
  Yeah, so I obviously grew up Melbourne, Australia, and born into a racing family.
• 3:14
  My dad, Les, he was heavily involved in racing.
• 3:18
  And when I came along in, what, 1983, he was...
• 3:22
  deep into the Australian touring car scene and heavily involved with Alan Grice and all those guys.
• 3:30
  And so, yeah, from from day dot, you know, that's all I knew and grew up really around him and all the guys at the workshop there in Knoxfield in Melbourne.
• 3:42
  There's great vision people can find on YouTube of an old Channel 7 clip of the Chickadee Commodore.
• 3:48
  It's the closing stages of the 86 race.
• 3:52
  Your dad's, I think, crew chief on the car for Alan Grice.
• 3:55
  He's about to win it.
• 3:57
  You're a three-year-old basically at this stage.
• 3:59
  Is that right?
• 3:59
  Yeah, correct.
• 4:00
  And I wasn't there.
• 4:02
  I just remember there was a lady who did all my dad's press back then, Pamela Lamb.
• 4:07
  She used to babysit me every bathhouse.
• 4:10
  You know, we were there watching it on TV and I still have memories of that.
• 4:13
  And, yeah, no, it was, yeah, cool time to grow up, that's for sure.
• 4:19
  You grew up around it, mate, and I would cross paths with your dad at places like Oren Park.
• 4:25
  I want to say the Alcare Commodore and things like that were influences.
• 4:29
  He had a, you know, ironically, where you've ended up now, he had a real sort of connection with...
• 4:36
  uh, Thunderdome and, and Oscar engines and, and a lot of that stuff.
• 4:40
  So you literally were around it, weren't you?
• 4:43
  Yeah, for sure.
• 4:43
  And I still remember, you know, standing up in the corporate hospitality area on the back straight, you know, the first ever NASCAR race there at the Thunderdome.
• 4:52
  So, um, you know, he, he came over here, him and Alan and did some, you know, they did the, what was called the world 600 back at Charlotte.
• 5:00
  Um,
• 5:01
  you know, back in like, I think 87 and 88, you know, and that's when I started, you know, getting into NASCAR and, you know, all these weird American guys coming to our house that stayed when they came out to race here and- Like who, like who?
• 5:16
  One guy I remember as a guy, he, Bob Rahili, he,
• 5:20
  He owned the company Ray Mock, him and Butch Mock, who were like one of the bigger teams over here at the time.
• 5:27
  And they came out and their car actually won the first race with Neil Bonnet out there and the big Christmas race when all the Yanks went out there.
• 5:35
  But, you know, it's weird, you know, where I am now versus, you know, back then to even think that this could happen.
• 5:45
  Can I, Jack Perkins has been helpful here with a little bit of intel or research, mate.
• 5:50
  He pointed out to me that maybe there is a BMX state title that you had as a youngster.
• 5:57
  Is that true?
• 5:58
  Have we got that right?
• 5:59
  Yeah.
• 5:59
  So, yeah, my first racing escapades was BMX racing.
• 6:05
  Yeah, it was family, friends, and a guy I went to school with, he was racing.
• 6:10
  And I went down to the track in Knox there one night and then was hooked.
• 6:15
  And I did that for, I don't know, three years, I think.
• 6:23
  Being from a racing family, we had all the trick stuff and my dad's up there machining all titanium parts.
• 6:31
  I think he got so sick of paying retail price, he even opened a bike shop so he could buy everything at 50%.
• 6:37
  Me and my brother had a lot of success racing bikes and we went and raced all around Australia.
• 6:46
  We were racing every weekend.
• 6:49
  you know, eventually, you know, that kind of ended and then transitioned to, you know, four wheels and motors.
• 6:55
  Tell me about that.
• 6:56
  What was the, the, um, push or maybe the conversation or obviously karting was the, was kind of the next phase.
• 7:04
  How did that all come about?
• 7:05
  So we used to go and race, uh, at Lilydale BMX track a lot.
• 7:10
  And there was an indoor go-kart track there on the, on the way home.
• 7:13
  So every time we'd race there, we were going to indoor go-karts and, uh,
• 7:18
  You know, I was never allowed to race motocross.
• 7:20
  My mum wouldn't let me in.
• 7:21
  And finally it got to the point when my dad's like, okay, I think you're good enough now or whatever.
• 7:26
  Let's go and we'll get a go-kart and go out.
• 7:30
  So, yeah, that happened I think when I was actually not super young.
• 7:35
  I was nine, I think.
• 7:37
  Yeah, I think I was nine when I started.
• 7:40
  But before my first race,
• 7:42
  we went out to Oakley go-kart track there and we practiced a lot after school, week after week.
• 7:48
  And I had another guy, Mike Donelson, that used to come out and between him and my dad, they'd stand on all the corners and make sure I hit all the right apexes.
• 7:57
  And so, yeah, and then my first ever race, I went out there and won every race and killed everybody and they all thought we were cheating.
• 8:07
  You're a racer, right, and we'll ultimately get to the job that you're doing now, but it's clear, mate, you had the talent and you could have continued on that path.
• 8:16
  Was that the early ambition, the early want to be a driver?
• 8:20
  Oh, 100%.
• 8:20
  You know, that's all I ever wanted to do.
• 8:23
  I wanted to go and race Formula One like every young kid and –
• 8:28
  You know, growing up, that was my aspirations.
• 8:30
  But also there was the realization that, you know, my mom and dad weren't extremely well off.
• 8:36
  You know, they worked hard and did everything to give us what we needed and try to support us as best as we could.
• 8:41
  But eventually, if we couldn't find money, we're going to run out of our own money.
• 8:46
  And that's where, you know, I always had in the back of my mind.
• 8:50
  You know, if I went to school and got an engineering degree, you know, I could always fall back on that and then continue, you know, to work in racing for the rest of my life.
• 8:59
  Is there a story of you and Larry Perkins having a conversation and a promise that he made to you while you were at school?
• 9:08
  And I gather, mate, you were pretty smart when it came to your schoolwork.
• 9:13
  No wonder you've ended up in that sort of engineering space.
• 9:15
  What was the promise he made and did he deliver?
• 9:18
  Yeah, so I was in high school and obviously, you know, we spent a lot of time with Larry and Jack through go-karting and obviously my dad knew him forever and he
• 9:31
  And Larry said, if you go, you know, go and get your mechanical engineering degree, as soon as you're done, I'll give you a test in one of my cars.
• 9:38
  And I'm like, okay.
• 9:39
  And, you know, we never spoke about it ever again.
• 9:42
  And, you know, after all those years, whatever it was, five or six years later, I literally finished.
• 9:49
  So it was 2006.
• 9:50
  2006.
• 9:52
  And I did that.
• 9:55
  So I went to Swinburne University and we did that Formula SAE thing.
• 9:58
  And I think we finished that on the Sunday and it was a week after not sleeping.
• 10:02
  And then I drove to Winton the next morning and I think we tested that next afternoon, Monday afternoon, and we tested all day Tuesday.
• 10:09
  And that was, you know, he honored his deal.
• 10:11
  And, you know, I think that same day Moff was testing and Timmy Blanchard and it was the three of us, you know, flogging around at Winton.
• 10:18
  And I think it was like 40 degrees outside.
• 10:22
  You know, it went good.
• 10:24
  And, you know, that literally, that test, I was going to go on race development series the year after with Larry and even do the endurance races in one of the JD cars and then,
• 10:37
  It all kind of fell over in, you know, mid-January and, you know, because of funding for the other guy I was going to be running and, yeah, it kind of killed my racing career.
• 10:48
  Can we touch on, if you don't mind, just some of the gaps here before we get to supercars and things like that?
• 10:54
  Firstly, I'm told, mate, you have a scar on your arm from karting to this day.
• 11:01
  Now, this is an audio medium, so you're going to need to paint the picture here.
• 11:03
  You and I can see each other, obviously.
• 11:05
  You're in America.
• 11:06
  I'm at home.
• 11:06
  So you were so determined, am I right, to kind of save the cart and there was something wrong, maybe a stuck throttle or a brake issue or something, and am I right, you grabbed the chain.
• 11:17
  Is that right?
• 11:18
  No.
• 11:18
  So it sounds stupid right now, doesn't it?
• 11:22
  So we were racing at Ipswich and...
• 11:26
  It was the final and it was Junior Intercontinental A in 1997.
• 11:32
  And my brakes ended up going out halfway through the race.
• 11:36
  They were barely working.
• 11:38
  So pretty much did the whole race, you know, just kind of cruising, letting off, rolling through the corners and, you know, finished the race and got points or whatever for the championship.
• 11:51
  rolling in the grid, the in-grid after the race.
• 11:55
  And you know, back then, you know, you always saw guys going really slow.
• 11:59
  They'd put their hands on the back wheels and just kind of coast, but- Yeah.
• 12:05
  To this day, I really don't know what happened.
• 12:07
  I'd even done that before.
• 12:09
  And those carts had a clutch.
• 12:10
  So you'd roll in, shut the motor off, roll in, put my hands on there.
• 12:14
  And all of a sudden, my right arm, the chain somehow grabbed my suit and pulled my arm in.
• 12:22
  And it rotated around and the sprocket just sawed my arm.
• 12:26
  And I like, cause I didn't want to run, I could have just run into the fence.
• 12:30
  Like, and everyone would have been, Oh, what's that guy doing?
• 12:32
  I didn't think I was doing anything wrong.
• 12:34
  I could have run into a cart.
• 12:35
  Like, I think that was Bart or Bart Price or Jamie in front of me.
• 12:39
  I can't even remember now.
• 12:41
  And, uh, and I got out of the cart and Bart standing there and he's like, holy shit.
• 12:46
  He's like, I'm like, what do you mean?
• 12:49
  Like I was, my body must've just been in shock.
• 12:52
  And like there was, you know, my arm was just cut open and, uh,
• 12:57
  They, I think Gary Dumbraal grabbed me and took me to the hospital and we drove to the hospital in Ipswich.
• 13:05
  And yeah, they were in there, they had a toothbrush and they were trying to wash out all the Motul chain lube and dirt.
• 13:13
  And I think I had like 60 stitches, you know, like, you know, super thick, looked like fishing wire.
• 13:21
  Yeah, the guy said I was so lucky it missed the ulnar nerve by like less than a millimetre.
• 13:28
  Otherwise I would have lost.
• 13:29
  Whoa.
• 13:29
  Yeah, I was really, really lucky.
• 13:32
  So, um.
• 13:33
  Lucky.
• 13:33
  Yes, that was an experience.
• 13:35
  I think for years I still had gravel coming out of my arm appearing every year.
• 13:41
  Yeah, it was weird.
• 13:42
  You rattled off a couple of names there, mate.
• 13:44
  Can we just explore that a little bit?
• 13:45
  I mean, Bart Price, Gary Dumbrell.
• 13:48
  What about some of the others that you're on track with during this phase of your karting career?
• 13:53
  Who were you rubbing wheels with back then?
• 13:55
  So, you know, when I started, you know, Jamie Winkup, I started when I was in midgets.
• 14:03
  He was in rookies.
• 14:04
  And then, obviously, my dad, you know, was...
• 14:08
  I knew Graham a lot.
• 14:09
  Graham, his uncle, his shop was actually across the road from my dad's.
• 14:14
  Literally right across the road.
• 14:17
  So then obviously I moved up and raced against him and then Will started racing, Davison in rookies.
• 14:23
  Obviously there's Bart Price and then as we moved up and moved around more, you have Michael Caruso and Alan Gurr and Clayton Pine, those guys from New South Wales.
• 14:34
  Good crew.
• 14:35
  Good crew of races, mate.
• 14:36
  Tough competition, hey?
• 14:37
  Yeah, there was a lot of good guys.
• 14:40
  So, you know, and there's guys from Adelaide, Jamie Carter.
• 14:44
  He was good.
• 14:45
  You know, there's a whole bunch of different guys.
• 14:48
  you know, obviously a lot of them have gone on, you know, to be successful.
• 14:52
  And, um, yeah, it was a good, good time to be racing.
• 14:56
  Don't underwrite your own if it's here, mate.
• 14:59
  Is there an Oceania title on the, on the shelf?
• 15:02
  What to tell me about some of that stuff?
• 15:03
  Yeah.
• 15:03
  So that was, uh, 1997.
• 15:06
  So, uh, that was, so they'd always run the Oceania championship up in, uh, at Oran park.
• 15:13
  And then, uh, then it moved down to Melbourne then, um,
• 15:17
  at Todd Road there and I had not raced, you know, junior, it was called Junior Inacon in LA at that time.
• 15:26
  And, you know, we spent a lot of time out there, me and Bart developing the carts for Drew and I'm out of Todd Road testing a lot and, you know,
• 15:35
  Yeah, I ended up winning that race, my first race in that, I think.
• 15:39
  So it was all those guys that just rattled off, they were all the ones racing too.
• 15:43
  And I think I chased down Clayton Pine, passed him, and won that race.
• 15:48
  It was weird afterwards, they actually disqualified me for the most random thing.
• 15:55
  My spare engine had an exhaust temp sensor in it that was sitting in the trailer, and they tried to have data logging on the cart, which you could just look at it and know.
• 16:07
  But I think the guy, the head official, he was from France and I think he's maybe his Belgian.
• 16:11
  I don't know.
• 16:12
  But he had it out from my dad from a fight they had back in the 80s.
• 16:15
  So he was out to get me.
• 16:18
  So anyway, we won the appeal anyway and I won.
• 16:21
  So it was the weirdest thing ever.
• 16:23
  But yeah, that was a cool experience.
• 16:25
  That's for sure.
• 16:26
  You brought up your dad there and carding for a moment.
• 16:28
  Is there a little yarn in, and maybe you won't like this, but did he get barred from the track for a little while?
• 16:36
  And you would take your younger brother, and you actually kind of quite enjoyed that, didn't you, that whole phase of taking your younger brother and looking after him in the cart?
• 16:44
  Yeah, for sure.
• 16:46
  I think, you know, my dad's a fiery character, but this instance, I don't think...
• 16:53
  I don't even think I was at the track when this happened.
• 16:55
  I think he was there with my brother and he hit an official's hat off his head.
• 17:01
  Like it was, it was the most random thing.
• 17:04
  And then he ended up getting thrown out.
• 17:05
  So yeah, it was just me and Benny and, you know, a guy.
• 17:11
  That was before I could drive.
• 17:12
  So then another guy, Rob Macri, who's sadly not with us anymore, he used to drive us around.
• 17:17
  And then eventually, you know, I was old enough to drive.
• 17:20
  So then I'd take Benny everywhere.
• 17:21
  And, you know, Dad didn't really come anymore.
• 17:25
  So, yeah, it was a lot of fun, just me and Benny.
• 17:29
  And, yeah, we had a lot of success.
• 17:32
  In the travelling around the country, I think Jack Perkins said to me that,
• 17:36
  When you raced in Adelaide or South Australia, for example, for the state championships down there, was it Colin Moat that would actually build a custom cart of sorts for you?
• 17:47
  And Moat, he had a connection to Russell Ingle back in the day when Ingle was a gun in carts too, didn't he?
• 17:53
  Yeah, so that was, what year would that have been?
• 17:55
  98.
• 17:57
  98 maybe, I think, or something.
• 17:59
  Yeah, Modi, he was Russell's guy.
• 18:03
  I used to build all Russell's carts back in the day, and it was Modi and Russell and Bobby Smith, who used to help me a lot, and who was Russell's mechanic forever.
• 18:14
  Yeah, we went out there and he built me a special cart.
• 18:16
  And I think we were leading that race.
• 18:20
  And something went wrong with the engine.
• 18:22
  And it was, yeah.
• 18:25
  Yeah, he helped me a lot too.
• 18:26
  He was a good dude.
• 18:27
  We used to go and stay at his house and have a good old time.
• 18:30
  Awesome.
• 18:31
  The natural progression, James, is formula forward.
• 18:34
  It's been the, you know, tried and tested pathway for youngsters like yourself when you've come out of karting.
• 18:40
  And you did head that direction.
• 18:42
  How big a kind of sacrifice was that for the family to begin with?
• 18:47
  I think you looked at a McGale at one point, didn't you?
• 18:49
  But it wasn't the competitive beast you thought it would be and so on.
• 18:53
  Yeah, so I think, so I started, you know,
• 18:57
  we first went formula Ford racing in, uh, 2000, I think it was.
• 19:01
  Yeah.
• 19:02
  2000.
• 19:02
  And we bought, um, I think it was Aaron McNally from Perth.
• 19:06
  We bought his 96 B I think through Brett Lupton and we ran that in the state series.
• 19:12
  And that was, you know, my first foray into, you know, bigger cars.
• 19:16
  And then for 2001, we, we got a Miguel, uh, you know, my dad also knew Dougal McDougal really well.
• 19:23
  And he was the importer at the time.
• 19:25
  And, um,
• 19:27
  I think Luke Yulden and Greg Ritter had been running McGaill's and then the 01 car came in and it was an absolute lemon.
• 19:37
  We were running it ourselves and I think Will was in the 01 VD with Mick Ritter and Jamie was in Luke Yulden's 2000 McGaill, I think, which was a lot better.
• 19:52
  we kind of struggled through that year and we tried to do the full season and, you know, it was a little up and down and we weren't that competitive, to be honest.
• 20:02
  And then the year after we spent, we did just a handful of races and, you know, that's when I started really getting into more of an understanding of the whole vehicle dynamics of a car.
• 20:14
  Cause, you know, I used to try and work at, you know,
• 20:17
  I was doing all the engineering work, you know, and all the stuff on the geometry or whatever, and the motion ratio is and all the roll stiffness and everything like that.
• 20:24
  And we started working and testing to try and make that car better.
• 20:27
  And then ultimately in 03, I just went over and we measured at a Van Diemen and tried to copy the geometry and motion ratios and everything.
• 20:35
  And we did some more races that year.
• 20:39
  And I think I ended up winning the national round at Sandown, the last race of the year in that car.
• 20:45
  And finally we got it good.
• 20:46
  And then the year after, I then went and drove for Mick in a Van Diemen and we kept running that Miguel for another guy.
• 20:55
  in the state series, and he actually won the state championship.
• 20:58
  So that car still resides at my dad's shop.
• 21:00
  One day I'm going to go back and put it in the historics, I think.
• 21:05
  I want to just touch quickly on Sonic.
• 21:06
  I mean, you mentioned Mick Ritter there.
• 21:08
  So that was a four-car team back then, which included, mate, David Reynolds, Michael Trimble, Bryce Washington, who I think you mentioned before, and Davey Reynolds would actually win the championship that year.
• 21:18
  So you're in some pretty good company in that operation,
• 21:25
  a proven kind of ethos, mate.
• 21:27
  They're great at helping to shape young people in the motor racing environments, aren't they?
• 21:32
  Yeah, no, they're awesome.
• 21:34
  You know, Mick and Maria, you know, they're great people.
• 21:37
  And then, you know, you have Graham Ritter, Mick's dad, you know, he's an absolute legend.
• 21:41
  I love him.
• 21:42
  And, you know, I was lucky that year, you know, my mechanic was Ashley Seawood.
• 21:46
  And, you know, I learned a lot from him and Mick, you know, just the way they go about their racing and the attention to detail they pay with everything and, you know,
• 21:55
  you know, it was a fun year.
• 21:57
  You know, we had, you know, a lot of good races and then, you know, some bad ones and, you know, I felt like we could have won the championship that year if we just, you know, I made mistakes.
• 22:06
  We had some mechanical issues and I lost my head a couple of times.
• 22:10
  And, uh, I think I got black flagged and disqualified one time while leading.
• 22:14
  And it was just, I don't know.
• 22:16
  It was one of those years where I felt like maybe I did it to myself, but the officials are out to get me and, uh,
• 22:23
  I don't know.
• 22:24
  It was odd, but it was awesome that Dave won.
• 22:26
  You know, he's a good friend of mine still to this day.
• 22:29
  One thing I love in your answer here, mate, and it's sort of filtered through a little bit.
• 22:33
  Even Lee Diffie told me as well that, you know, you have a beautiful grounded nature about you, which you've kept to this day, despite the mammoth job that you now do in the premier level of NASCAR.
• 22:46
  But you have a competitive side, mate, don't you?
• 22:48
  You have a real inner determination about you.
• 22:51
  Was it evident at a young age, clearly?
• 22:55
  Yeah, I think so.
• 22:56
  Like, I even saw schoolwork as a competition.
• 22:58
  Did you?
• 23:00
  Oh, yeah.
• 23:02
  You know, like if we're studying or if I knew somebody that was slightly smarter or better at something, I'd go and study with them to try and work out what they knew.
• 23:10
  And I just hate to lose.
• 23:13
  It eats me alive.
• 23:14
  That's why I don't gamble because I can't stand losing.
• 23:16
  But it's, yeah, I just, it eats me up and, you know, I just, you know, I just want to be the most competitive and most successful at everything I do and just leave no stone unturned.
• 23:29
  You know, I just.
• 23:31
  It probably is a detriment in sometimes because I'm so anal about certain things, but I think overall that's a better quality to have than not really giving a shit.
• 23:40
  It's an essential quality, mate, for what you now do and as an element of what's needed for success.
• 23:46
  Can I also just delve into the point you talked about in relation to the growing fascination with the engineering side, right?
• 23:57
  How much of that stemmed from maybe early lessons with dad in the workshop or how much of it was kind of you wanting to – or having this thirst and wanting to find out more?
• 24:09
  Tell me about that.
• 24:11
  Yeah, like so I grew up, you know, with my dad.
• 24:15
  You know, he was –
• 24:16
  he has a jack of all trades, but more spending a lot of time with him around engines.
• 24:20
  And I just didn't really care for that.
• 24:22
  And, uh, you know, I was more interested in the cars themselves and the, the setup stuff and, and all of those little details.
• 24:30
  And, and really it was more like the go-karting stuff that really got me into that.
• 24:37
  Like in a lot of the testing and development we used to go and do, you know, with the arrow stuff and even on myself and then working with my brother, like, uh,
• 24:45
  understanding like all the little small things you could do and gone and change in something and the effect of that and just that's probably you know what got me more into it and uh and then just the technical side of like you know reading all the magazines like you know the race car engineering and the you know the circle track you know magazine from over here and that's you know i just
• 25:08
  kind of soaked it all up and I've always been interested in it and just understanding, you know, all the things that make it tick and the little things you can do to make things go faster.
• 25:18
  So, um,
• 25:20
  you know, they didn't teach you any of that at university.
• 25:22
  You just went there to get the piece of paper, really.
• 25:25
  You did get to do the Formula SAE thing.
• 25:28
  Probably worth telling people a bit more about that that don't know it.
• 25:31
  We often see young students at the Australian Formula One Grand Prix, for example, and talk a bit about the great work that they do.
• 25:40
  brings all the elements together in terms of, of, of, of engineering, of, of mechanical creation, if you will.
• 25:48
  And then even on the competitive side, James, doesn't it?
• 25:50
  It's an interesting thing.
• 25:51
  And it's obviously changed a lot.
• 25:53
  You know, it's almost what 17 years since I did it.
• 25:57
  And you know, I think they're transitioned into some electric stuff, but they're still, you know, even over here that a lot of the really good guys, you know, I work with, you know, especially the younger guys now all came up through that, you know,
• 26:10
  because it's not hard if you don't have connections in the racing industry or anything like that.
• 26:15
  It's, it's hard to, you know, sink your teeth in and actually, you know, learn about that stuff.
• 26:19
  And that's a, it's a great platform, you know, some people talk down on it.
• 26:23
  But I still think it's, you know, it's a great thing to go and learn and, you know, and then working, working a team as well of people working together, trying to, you know, you know, divide tasks and, you know, work out
• 26:36
  you know, how to do everything the most efficient way possible.
• 26:39
  Possible.
• 26:40
  So you've got an engineering degree.
• 26:42
  Larry Perkins has given you a test.
• 26:44
  You've come through some racing yourself.
• 26:48
  Where's the defining moment for you where you decide, okay, I'm going to go the other side of the outside the car, work on the other side of pit wall and focus on that?
• 27:01
  Where was that decision made and how difficult was it for you to make that call?
• 27:06
  Really it was the start of 2007.
• 27:12
  You know, I was still at school in 2006, it was my final year.
• 27:16
  And, you know, that year I spent time, you know, my dad and I were actually going to the races with Robert Smith when Nathan Pretty was running.
• 27:26
  We were kind of tag teaming the engineering on his car.
• 27:28
  And then eventually we went and actually ran Paul Morris' car for the last part of the year.
• 27:36
  I was then trying to do that thing after I tested with Larry and, and I was going to go and try and do development series the year after.
• 27:43
  And, uh, Paul was actually going to help, you know, fund it.
• 27:46
  Um, and then I was going to pay him back once I found all the sponsorship.
• 27:50
  And, uh,
• 27:51
  Because it was too good of an opportunity to pass up.
• 27:54
  So at that point, I was still all set on racing.
• 27:57
  And it wasn't until, you know, that phone call Larry, I still remember, I was sitting at my desk in my bedroom and Larry's like, rings me up and he's like, Hey, cock.
• 28:06
  And he's like, we're, we have to pull the pin on this deal.
• 28:11
  I'm like, what do you mean?
• 28:12
  He's like, the other guy who was bringing more of the money, I think it was actually Shannon O'Brien.
• 28:18
  And he was going to go and drive the second car.
• 28:22
  And he pulled out.
• 28:24
  So he's like, we're just going to shut the whole program down.
• 28:26
  And I was like, oh man, all right.
• 28:29
  So I ring Paul and I'm like, this is what's happening.
• 28:31
  He's like, oh shit.
• 28:32
  Well, he's like, you can come and work for me.
• 28:33
  And I'm like, yeah, I don't know.
• 28:34
  I didn't really want to move to Queensland at that point.
• 28:37
  And, uh, so there was a couple of ads at the time in auto action, I think for, for jobs.
• 28:44
  I'm like, I got to get a job now.
• 28:45
  Like I've got my degree.
• 28:47
  Uh, I've got no racing prospects.
• 28:49
  I've got no money.
• 28:51
  Um,
• 28:52
  And one of the jobs was with Gary Rogers.
• 28:55
  So, and obviously my dad, I say my dad all the time, but he goes way back with Gary.
• 29:01
  So I ring Gary and he's like, yep, come and have an interview with me.
• 29:07
  And I had to go to New Zealand for a Formula Toyota race to go and work over there.
• 29:13
  And so I went and saw him when I got back
• 29:17
  Yeah, he interviewed him and he took me around to see Steve Kramer and make sure because he was engineering the other car and make sure he was okay with me.
• 29:25
  And then he rang me up and I thought it went well.
• 29:30
  I'm like, oh, this is cool.
• 29:31
  And he rang me up and he's like, all right, I'm going to pay you 30,000 a year.
• 29:37
  And I was like, okay.
• 29:39
  And I'm like, well, respectfully, I'm like, I can go and make more money packing boxes, Gary.
• 29:43
  So I'm going to have to decline.
• 29:45
  So he's like, all right, give me 10 minutes or whatever.
• 29:51
  Give me 30 minutes.
• 29:52
  Literally, he rings me back in five minutes.
• 29:55
  And he's like, all right, I'll –
• 29:57
  I'll give you, what did he say?
• 29:59
  I think he said, I'll give you 35 and we'll review it in a month or whatever.
• 30:03
  It was something like that.
• 30:05
  Or maybe it was 40, I don't know.
• 30:07
  It was still not much money because a lot of my friends, and it's not about the money, it's never been that for me, but some of my friends were going to go and work for Holden or whatever at that time and they were making like 65,000 or something.
• 30:22
  So eventually I said yes.
• 30:24
  And so I went and it was to go and race engineer Lee Holdworth's car.
• 30:29
  Holdworth, yeah.
• 30:30
  To this day, like, and that was really the last time I ever, oh, there was maybe one time that year that I considered driving after Gary gave me a test.
• 30:39
  He was trying to get me to drive the year after.
• 30:42
  And I said no.
• 30:42
  But, yeah, at that point I was all in on engineering.
• 30:47
  And, you know, I'm...
• 30:49
  To this day, I wouldn't be here without Gary Rogers, you know, giving me that opportunity.
• 30:54
  And, you know, I always appreciate that.
• 30:56
  And same with Paul, you know, those two guys helped me a lot in the early side of my career.
• 31:02
  So, I mean, was it a little kind of bittersweet moment in the sense that the engineering thing you had studied in, there was obviously a future there and you committed to that path, but you were more or less closing the door on the driving chapter, mate.
• 31:17
  That can't have been easy.
• 31:19
  No, no, it wasn't.
• 31:20
  And, you know, I don't think it was probably until 2009 or 2010 that I was finally fully over it.
• 31:29
  Really?
• 31:30
  Yeah, like I think I always kind of questioned, you know, if I'd made the right decision or not, you know, because I think like the first time I met Lee, we were actually driving Smithy's car at Winton the same day, a test.
• 31:44
  It was the first day he drove a supercar and the first day I did.
• 31:48
  It was a little bit of a shootout for memory too, wasn't it?
• 31:50
  Is that right?
• 31:51
  Yeah, I still think I was faster than anything to this day.
• 31:54
  But I guarantee I was.
• 31:57
  And then the funny thing was that year is that, so they used to do a rookie day or a rookie shakedown day or whatever.
• 32:05
  So the middle of the year, because that was when the VT was coming along.
• 32:10
  No, the VE.
• 32:11
  The VE was coming along.
• 32:12
  And we started the year with the old car in the middle.
• 32:15
  And then we finally got the new car in the middle of the year.
• 32:18
  So we went to Winton and did a driver evaluation day, I think it was called.
• 32:22
  So Lee was allowed to do 10 or 20 laps, I think, 20 laps.
• 32:26
  And then I could do it all.
• 32:27
  So I went out in the car first, shook it down.
• 32:30
  Then Lee got in.
• 32:32
  And then I went back out and went faster than him.
• 32:34
  And then Lee got back in and went faster than me.
• 32:36
  And then I went back in.
• 32:37
  I think it was like, and that's after that, that's when Gary's like, so do you want to drive?
• 32:42
  And he said, so in part of his negotiations to get me to stay the year after, he was trying to, instead of paying me more money, he wanted to give me three development series races and drive in the endurance races.
• 32:57
  But I still had to engineer Lee's car on all the things.
• 33:01
  I was like, yeah, that's great.
• 33:02
  But being the perfectionist I am, I'm like, I don't think I could do either, you know, to the ability that would be required to be successful, you know.
• 33:11
  And, yeah, ultimately I said no.
• 33:14
  And that's probably the last real chance I had, you know what I mean, that I questioned for a little while if that was the right decision or not.
• 33:23
  Great indication of your makeup though, mate, that you could see the need to –
• 33:28
  knuckle down and apply to one or the other, basically.
• 33:32
  Yeah, yeah, I just, you have to be all in on whatever you're doing.
• 33:36
  You're doing.
• 33:36
  You can't, yeah, especially if you want to be, you know, the best at it.
• 33:41
  Well done.
• 33:41
  Great takeaway for those that are listening.
• 33:43
  I love that shootout story.
• 33:44
  Lee's been on the podcast as well.
• 33:47
  And the hilarious part, mate, is that you're both kind of, as youngsters, you know, you're trying to make it, you're scrambling.
• 33:53
  So that's why you were beating each other is because there was so much riding on it for each of you in that shootout, wasn't there?
• 33:59
  Yeah.
• 33:59
  Oh yeah, yeah.
• 34:01
  So anyway, but yeah, it was good.
• 34:04
  We had a good year and I love working with Lee.
• 34:06
  It was, yeah, it was good and, you know, win with him and all that and then see him to go on to a really long career is, you know, it was great.
• 34:25
  It sure was one hell of a career for Lee, including 510 races, and in their Abathurst 1000 victory.
• 34:33
  Lee's story is one of our favourites, and you can hear it back in the garage.
• 34:38
  I was just praying that we didn't have another tyre failure, and I just didn't relax up until...
• 34:45
  I thought when he came out of, like all the team were up and about, when he came out of Forest Elbow, and I thought, can still have a tyre failure down Conrod here.
• 34:56
  You were thinking that.
• 34:57
  Honestly, I just thought I never, ever, I get ahead of myself sometimes.
• 35:02
  I thought, I'm not getting ahead of myself here.
• 35:05
  And I waited until he was in the chase.
• 35:07
  And then I thought, we got it.
• 35:09
  We've won.
• 35:10
  And yeah, ran over to the fence and celebrated really hard.
• 35:14
  How'd that feel?
• 35:15
  Oh, incredible.
• 35:16
  Incredible.
• 35:18
  Like at the time, I think I was that stressed and that had that much adrenaline that it hadn't sunk in yet.
• 35:25
  Like it was, it was quite strange.
• 35:28
  And I reckon I get more emotional about it now than what I did at the time was like, we just won Bathurst.
• 35:34
  And, and it wasn't, it just wasn't registering in my head what you'd done.
• 35:40
  We'd actually done it.
• 35:42
  That is Lee and Rusty from 2022.
• 35:45
  Now back to James, all the way from Charlotte.
• 35:48
  That's my neck of the woods.
• 35:51
  Gary is, I mean, your families knew each other, obviously, but Gary, probably a bit like Larry in many ways, is a huge believer in hard work ethic and sometimes you can end up doing very boring basic jobs until you get sort of established and so on.
• 36:07
  What were the early learnings from Gary Rogers Motorsport?
• 36:11
  Well, yeah, it was, it was a little weird because I came in there and, uh, you know, there was obviously Pierre was there, Pierre Orsi.
• 36:20
  And, um, and I saw what they were doing on a few things and I had spoken to Lee and I was like, this doesn't make too much sense to me.
• 36:29
  And, um,
• 36:32
  I was a lot more fiery back then than I am now.
• 36:35
  So there was a point there where it wasn't too long after I started.
• 36:40
  It was before we went to our first test.
• 36:42
  And I'm like, I think we need to do all these things.
• 36:45
  And I want to try this with the shocks and, you know, change the front geometry and this and do this in the rear and all this.
• 36:53
  And they told me, no, we can't do that.
• 36:57
  We can't do the shocks or whatever.
• 37:00
  So I was like,
• 37:02
  So I think I went to Shirl and I lost my mind and said a few expletives and whatever.
• 37:10
  And then Gary got involved and I think they're like, let him do what he wants.
• 37:14
  So we went to the test and we tried all these things.
• 37:17
  Everything we tried was better, better, better, better.
• 37:20
  And I think at the end of the test at that point from memory, I think that was the fastest a GRM car had ever gone around there.
• 37:26
  And I think Lee was second in the test behind.
• 37:29
  Mark Winterbottom, you know, and so we went to Clipsville like that.
• 37:33
  We, you know, that same philosophy and qualified in the top 10 and both days.
• 37:38
  And I think we finished, we DNF'd the first day cause a power steering issue.
• 37:42
  And I think we finished eighth or something the next day.
• 37:44
  And that was like the best, you know, results they'd had.
• 37:47
  And, you know, we just kind of built on that for the rest of the year.
• 37:49
  And I don't know, that gave me confidence.
• 37:52
  And I think, you know, it gave the team confidence in me and what we were doing and,
• 37:56
  you know, it kind of, we kind of exceeded everybody's expectations, but it was, it was a little weird to start with, but after all that, you know, it was, uh, everyone came on board and, you know, it was a good year and there was such good people there, you know, Sherl and Gary and,
• 38:14
  Les and all those guys.
• 38:16
  And, you know, there's a bunch of guys, you know, I met one of my good friends, my mechanic back then, Cam Stevens, who was around forever, you know, just such great people to work with.
• 38:25
  You get to taste from memory some success with them too, didn't you?
• 38:30
  Tell us about that day.
• 38:31
  Yeah.
• 38:32
  So that was, I think we qualified fourth that weekend.
• 38:35
  It was a good weekend.
• 38:36
  And yeah, Sunday, Sunday.
• 38:37
  It was going to be some weather, wasn't there?
• 38:40
  Yeah.
• 38:40
  Yeah.
• 38:40
  That was, it was, it was going to be wet and we're on the grid.
• 38:43
  And, uh, I'm like, it's gonna, it's gonna fucking rain.
• 38:48
  Like I know it's gonna rain.
• 38:50
  And I said to Lee, we're starting on wets.
• 38:52
  You know, I actually think we had the wet set up in the car too.
• 38:56
  And, uh, so I think we finished the first two races in the dry, like around fourth or whatever.
• 39:00
  And, um, then, uh, we changed the car as well.
• 39:04
  I'm like, it's gonna rain.
• 39:05
  So we put the wets on literally on that, on the parade lap back around to the grid, it started raining.
• 39:10
  And like everybody, like all these gurus that all went on slicks and whatever, they're all peeling off.
• 39:17
  I think there was only a few of us that started on wets.
• 39:20
  And Lee just killed the field.
• 39:23
  Like even the people, no one was even close, you know what I mean?
• 39:27
  And we just, yeah, it was actually easy after that.
• 39:31
  I'm sure it wasn't for him.
• 39:32
  But, yeah, it was an awesome day for, you know, and everybody,
• 39:39
  They hadn't won for a while and to get a win like that in dominating fashion, not like a reverse grid win or something, that was awesome for everybody.
• 39:48
  He'd been a battler.
• 39:49
  It meant so much to him.
• 39:50
  I know he's reflected that in the podcast conversation we've had.
• 39:53
  I can vividly recall it from my time with supercars and so on.
• 39:58
  But was that the moment that you felt kind of –
• 40:05
  cemented in that supercar paddock?
• 40:06
  Because you're talking in Australia, you're talking at the pinnacle of, you know, sort of domestic competition, aren't you, mate?
• 40:13
  It's a tough environment.
• 40:16
  Yeah, a little bit.
• 40:19
  I guess so.
• 40:20
  There's a weird question.
• 40:21
  Yeah.
• 40:23
  I was still very young.
• 40:24
  You know, I was only 23, 24 years old.
• 40:27
  So maybe people didn't, I don't know, certain people maybe didn't think that or maybe thought it was lucky.
• 40:33
  I don't know, you had a lot of guys and older guys that had been around for a while.
• 40:37
  Time, yeah.
• 40:38
  I honestly think, you know,
• 40:42
  Maybe it took maybe a couple more years.
• 40:44
  It was maybe after we went, you know, after I left GRM and went to Paul's and started having this success with Russell that maybe people maybe, you know, started to maybe...
• 40:57
  think a bit more of me, you know what I mean?
• 40:59
  Yeah.
• 40:59
  In the move to Paul's from Larry's, was that a difficult thing?
• 41:04
  Was it just that you, you know, I think your dad had a connection with Paul's at the time there as well.
• 41:07
  Was it the sort of thing where you just thought from a progression point of view, you wanted to try it?
• 41:11
  What happened there?
• 41:12
  So one of the big things was, you know, Paul had offered me a job that year and, uh, I had said no, cause I didn't want to move from Melbourne.
• 41:20
  And, um,
• 41:22
  But the big thing he was offering, we'd spoken about a lot of conversations about bringing a car to America, doing a lot of testing, doing the wind tunnel testing, the seven post testing, the K and C testing, and trying to develop some simulation tools.
• 41:38
  And he was gonna allow me to go and be like the head engineer and run the engineering department.
• 41:46
  And that was an opportunity all through all of that and coming over here to get experience
• 41:53
  that I couldn't say no to.
• 41:54
  It was like that, that was a once in a lifetime chance essentially to go and show that, you know, that we could do it ourselves almost.
• 42:04
  And, you know, I was lucky.
• 42:06
  Um, my data engineer that year at Gary Rogers was, uh, Brad Reshuzan that still works at, you know, FPR today or whatever they call themselves these days.
• 42:15
  Um, so, uh, he, he came with me as well.
• 42:19
  Cause you know, he was all in on that as well.
• 42:21
  And, uh,
• 42:23
  we got some good pay rises.
• 42:26
  But it was just the opportunity for us.
• 42:30
  And there was a couple of other guys and my friend, Timmy Newton, he came up there and worked.
• 42:34
  And it was almost like being back in school.
• 42:38
  It was like four of us really and Joel Binney that was also up there still.
• 42:44
  And then my dad was kind of the team manager.
• 42:47
  we pretty much had a free-for-all.
• 42:49
  We could do what we wanted, design what we wanted.
• 42:51
  We had an amazing machine shop and water jet cutter and just everything and great fabricators.
• 42:59
  And we learn a lot in America, on the aero side as well and certain things.
• 43:07
  And we were just able to apply all that.
• 43:10
  You know, it was sad we didn't actually win a race in 08, but, you know, we had a hell of a year.
• 43:14
  And, you know, I think everybody was kind of thinking Russell was done.
• 43:18
  And, you know, we kept, you know, you know, just kept punching on and we're always up the front.
• 43:23
  So it was a good time.
• 43:25
  Did you?
• 43:26
  Am I right in saying that you met Dale Earnhardt Jr. during that American trip?
• 43:31
  And there may have been a conversation, I'm paraphrasing here, so I may not get this right, but you certainly expressed an interest to one day come back and work in NASCAR.
• 43:43
  Am I right?
• 43:44
  Yeah, so that trip at the start of 08, that was the time when I'm like, I'm going to come and work over here.
• 43:50
  I always had aspirations to go on.
• 43:53
  I wanted to go and work overseas, whether it was Formula One or NASCAR.
• 44:00
  We came over here for two weeks, I think, and we had a lot of fun too.
• 44:04
  Had a few parties.
• 44:07
  and all that but it was it was a very you know it was a big culture shock you know what i mean like it's very different and uh you know you didn't really you kind of understood but the the technology and the money behind everything when you started walking through some of these shops and you know speaking to these people it was like pretty mind-blowing you know for us you know for what we had out there and uh
• 44:31
  you know, that whet my appetite.
• 44:33
  And, you know, I knew it was only a matter of time that eventually I'd, you know, try and come over here and try and make a career of it.
• 44:40
  So yeah, that trip, you know, once again, changed my life.
• 44:44
  And, you know, I was thankful that we got to do it.
• 44:47
  Was it the enormity?
• 44:48
  Was it the racing?
• 44:49
  I mean, you already knew about it from your dad in many respects, but seeing it,
• 44:53
  in a firsthand sense and then experiencing it like that where you are meeting people like Dale away from the track and so on.
• 45:01
  Did that just enhance the desire to go, mate?
• 45:04
  Yeah.
• 45:04
  So, uh,
• 45:05
  I think the first time I met him, he walked in, he's like, he's like, I'm fucking Dale Jr. And I'm like, oh, yeah, no, no, shit.
• 45:13
  I'm like, I'm James.
• 45:15
  And I think we were in his shop there on his property and he was trying to get me to drink moonshine.
• 45:21
  And I was like, this is nuts.
• 45:25
  What they have back then, they had the DMP, the Dirty Mo Posse or whatever, and they were down there hanging out.
• 45:31
  And obviously Owen Kelly was over here at the time.
• 45:34
  He came over because it wasn't long after, as you know, that I think that year he drove Dale Jr.'s late models and I think it was 08.
• 45:43
  And yeah, I think Keselowski was driving for him at the time.
• 45:46
  He just started in the Busch Series or Xfinity Series, whatever they call it then, nationwide.
• 45:52
  He was there starting fires and it was just the most random time ever.
• 45:58
  And there's a lot of people that I met on that trip that now I know more of who they are or whatever or what they got up to after.
• 46:10
  And I don't know.
• 46:10
  It was just, that was fun time.
• 46:13
  So yeah, I'll never forget any of that week.
• 46:16
  Can we fast-track a little bit of the supercar career here before we get to NASCAR, mate?
• 46:21
  There's a period there, I think, with Kelly's, with Dave Reynolds, and then ultimately with FPR, as you said before.
• 46:28
  They're now Tickford Racing.
• 46:30
  But one of the standouts, mate, is winning Bathurst with Mark Winterbottom and Stephen Richards in 2013.
• 46:37
  Take us back to that day.
• 46:40
  Yeah, that was...
• 46:42
  still one of the most amazing days in my career.
• 46:45
  And, you know, I'd always wanted to win Bathurst.
• 46:48
  That, you know, I love to try and win the championship, but Bathurst was the number one thing.
• 46:52
  And, you know, obviously my dad had won it a couple of times and, you know, just, I wanted to emulate him and, you know, and it's just, I just knew, I don't know.
• 47:03
  I'd kind of already made my decision that I was going to move to America the year after, but.
• 47:10
  I wanted to win so bad before we left.
• 47:12
  I did not want to have to go back and try and win.
• 47:15
  And it was just a, it just was a weird weekend.
• 47:20
  Like I just had this feeling that we were going to win.
• 47:22
  Like, I think I said this on one other podcast I did a while ago.
• 47:25
  Like, I've never had this feeling ever that I knew we were going to win, like in any race.
• 47:32
  And I think I told the guys on Saturday night before we put the cover on and maybe
• 47:38
  Alan Contarino, Mark's father-in-law, I'm like, we're going to win tomorrow.
• 47:42
  You know, it's fine.
• 47:44
  We're going to win.
• 47:45
  And, you know, it just all worked out.
• 47:48
  Everything kind of went to plan.
• 47:50
  And we had that tight finish at the end with Jamie.
• 47:52
  And, you know, that whole day, Richo did an immense job.
• 47:57
  I still think he went faster than Mark that day.
• 48:00
  Like, he was on it, you know, and he...
• 48:04
  he got us where we needed to be.
• 48:05
  And obviously Mark did an awesome job all racing at the end.
• 48:08
  And to be a part of that, you know, that group of people that had been trying for so many years, you know, a lot of those guys there had even worked for Glenn Seton, you know, and been disappointed so many times.
• 48:20
  And, you know, it was like guys like Chris O'Toole and things like that.
• 48:24
  Like to be in pit lane when we cross the, you know, the line and see the emotion on everybody's faces, I'll never forget that.
• 48:33
  Tell me what gave you that confidence?
• 48:34
  I mean, that's the sum of many parts, James, be it people, be it engineering, be it performance of your drivers.
• 48:41
  Why did you have that eerie belief that you could do this?
• 48:45
  Because not many people would express that, mate.
• 48:47
  Not many people would say that before a race of that magnitude.
• 48:50
  Hey.
• 48:51
  That's just a weird question.
• 48:52
  That's like I said, it's still to this day.
• 48:54
  You know, I felt we were well prepared and, you know, practice had gone well and, you know, we, we,
• 49:02
  I'd had a good year and Richo had a lot of time in the car.
• 49:05
  You know, we've made sure of that, like even in the tests, you know, like trying to make sure that he was like really up to speed and, you know, comfortable and we just had a great combination.
• 49:16
  And I think, you know, the year before gave me confidence, you know, because we finished second with Dave and Dean, you know, when I was on the 55 and that one still eats me alive.
• 49:28
  I still wear Dave out about that.
• 49:30
  Do you?
• 49:31
  Yeah, he should have just lunged Jamie.
• 49:34
  There's only a...
• 49:35
  I keep saying to me, there's only ever one 50th anniversary Bathurst.
• 49:39
  So, at least we won the 51st one.
• 49:43
  But yeah, it's just...
• 49:45
  It was just a sum of everything, I think.
• 49:47
  And it was weird.
• 49:50
  As I said, I never had that feeling, but I'm glad it worked out.
• 49:53
  It was close to that.
• 49:54
  It didn't work out.
• 49:57
  But yeah, no, it was good.
• 49:59
  And it was an awesome year.
• 50:02
  I feel like we could have won a championship.
• 50:04
  We just had too many small issues and some mechanical things with transmissions and shocks and tire failures and silly things.
• 50:13
  But I really like working with Mark and Richel and all those guys.
• 50:17
  That game, that event is a game where strategy is so vital too, mate, and your world is about strategy in many respects now.
• 50:25
  When did you get your sort of head around that and how good are you at reading the race and moving things, you know, moving parts on the run and so on?
• 50:36
  Yeah, that's a huge part of it, especially there, because, you know, it's so...
• 50:42
  It's so tricky, like especially it's a little different here, you know, but they're like, you always balancing against stopping against how much fuel you have in the car and have fuel time.
• 50:50
  And, you know, you also got the driver time aspect there.
• 50:54
  And, you know, you're always thinking, you know, if the safety car comes out this lap, what am I going to do?
• 51:01
  That's the way I always approached it.
• 51:02
  Like you always had the plan in your head before it even happened.
• 51:06
  And, you know, it's a long lap there for a racing lap.
• 51:08
  So.
• 51:09
  you've got a little bit of time to think about it.
• 51:11
  And, uh, you know, I think those last two bathos I did, you know, we got the strategy both years, you know, really well.
• 51:19
  And, you know, you've also got help there, like your data engineers, you know, with all the fuel and everything.
• 51:24
  So you're all working there together.
• 51:25
  And, uh, yeah, it's, uh, I kind of missed that aspect of, uh, of racing.
• 51:32
  Like, you know, we have strategy here, but it's, it's quite different.
• 51:36
  It's not,
• 51:37
  you know, you're not weighing up so many different things.
• 51:40
  You alluded before to the fact that you'd more or less made your decision to go to America, even before you, you won Bathurst, but you were hell bent on, on trying to win a 1000 before you, before you left.
• 51:51
  When did you make that call, mate, that you were going to move to America?
• 51:55
  And how did that all come about?
• 51:57
  So, uh, it was, we raced Kota back in, uh, you know, the start of 2013 there.
• 52:05
  And, um,
• 52:06
  with the supercars.
• 52:07
  And then the week after, my brother and I actually flew from Austin to Charlotte and I spent the week here.
• 52:16
  And prior to that, I had lined up a couple of interviews, only with two teams, one at RCR and then another at Penske.
• 52:25
  So the RCR connection came through one of my dad's friend, Robbie Benson, who was an engine builder.
• 52:33
  Everybody kind of knows him out there.
• 52:36
  His last job over here was, he managed the engine shop at DEI, and then they merged with ECR, or RCR to form ECR.
• 52:46
  So he had a lot of connections there.
• 52:48
  And, you know, so interviewed there, and then interviewed at Penske with Tim Sindrick.
• 52:56
  So that came through one of my brother's friends.
• 52:59
  You know, he knew Tim quite well, and, you know, so.
• 53:02
  went to Penske shop after we had lunch and, you know, spoke to all those guys and they both offered me jobs, you know, pretty much the week after when I got back to Australia, they, they had the offers and the issue with the Penske one is that they couldn't tell me where I was going to be or what I was going to be doing.
• 53:21
  And I really wanted to come over here and go on the road and work for a cup team.
• 53:26
  And so thankfully,
• 53:29
  at Childress they offered me a job as, as the second engineer on the 27 car with Paul Menard for the year after.
• 53:34
  So, um, I took that one and, you know, that's what I told the Penske guys.
• 53:39
  That's, that's why I had to go and do it.
• 53:41
  You know, I just, I needed to get everything happening in the visa and everything.
• 53:44
  So literally probably June, July, you know, I'd put the wheels in motion that we were going to move.
• 53:53
  Um, and, uh,
• 53:56
  Yeah, and that's how it all came about.
• 53:58
  So I knew, nobody else knew.
• 54:01
  My wife obviously, well, she was my wife at the time.
• 54:04
  My fiance knew and yeah, that's, we kind of just kept it under the radar and kind of kept lining everything up.
• 54:13
  And I actually haven't told anybody.
• 54:16
  I don't think that I knew that far back.
• 54:21
  But yeah, so yeah, I was very lucky.
• 54:26
  know, I didn't know.
• 54:27
  Like I thought, you know, from here they're taking a huge chance on me and, you know, so I, you know, I didn't push them on money or anything.
• 54:38
  I'm like, gee, I'm just getting the opportunity to go over there.
• 54:41
  So
• 54:43
  You know, we had to take an extra mortgage out on our apartment out there and get the money together and all of that.
• 54:49
  So, you know, it was a big commitment and we had to go and get married just so we could get our visas and things like that.
• 54:55
  So, yeah, it was a weird time and, yeah, I was just lucky it all worked out.
• 55:07
  It sure has.
• 55:08
  You'd argue he absolutely made that luck with the way that he applied himself.
• 55:13
  That's the end of part one of my podcast with Aussie NASCAR crew chief James Small.
• 55:17
  There is another full lap for you to enjoy in the Rusty's Garage Library and it's ready for you to fire up right now.
• 55:24
  So head over whenever you're ready.
• 55:27
  from working with another iconic NASCAR team, one that he was a huge fan of as a kid, to the tough moments of a new life, a long way from family and friends.
• 55:39
  The supercars teams that kept calling, trying to lure him back, and why America is now home with lots of unfinished business.