Latest / Foul Territory / Ken Rosenthal’s Inside Scoop: SP market, Derek Falvey out in Minnesota, Red Sox trade looming? + Catcher framing metrics debate

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Ken Rosenthal’s Inside Scoop: SP market, Derek Falvey out in Minnesota, Red Sox trade looming? + Catcher framing metrics debate · Foul Territory

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: And there he is the aforementioned to Ken Rosenthal, the
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: busiest man in the game. Ken, good to see you,
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: thanks as always for being here. A couple of questions.
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: We wanted to ask you some topics that we talked
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: about a little bit yesterday on fair territory. What is
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: next my friend for the Seattle Mariners, and will Seattle
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: will a u henne O Suarez signing time soon?
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: They are a team that needs a bat. And I
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: believe Adam Dude was on FT yesterday explaining that since
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: the end of the season, they've lost Suarez, they've lost Polanco,
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: and they've resigned Josh Naylor, but they haven't done anything
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: else really to address their offense. So where would that
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: that be? Most likely in the infield, it seems to me.
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: But their concern there is blocking some younger players. So
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: this is why they have had such interest in Brendan Donovan,
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: because they feel Brendan Donovan is a guy that they
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: can use in a variety of ways at a variety
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: of positions and therefore enable some of their younger players
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: the opportunity to establish themselves. That makes a ton of sense,
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: And yet they've been talking about Brendan Donovan with the
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: Cardinals all winter, and yet we have not seen a
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: deal yet.
• 1:22
  Speaker 3: No, Brendan, Donovan might never get traded. He might be
• 1:24
  Speaker 3: a free agent before he gets traded. At the pace
• 1:26
  Speaker 3: this trade's going, Ken, it's been crazy. We've been talking
• 1:29
  Speaker 3: about this guy for three months, about him getting traded.
• 1:31
  Speaker 3: He's about to be traded and he's still a Cardinals.
• 1:33
  Speaker 3: So we'll see him in Jupiter in March. So, Brendan,
• 1:35
  Speaker 3: I expect you to come on the show. Thank you, Ken.
• 1:38
  Speaker 3: Why don't we keep hearing about all these prospects, like
• 1:40
  Speaker 3: we don't want to block this guy. We don't want
• 1:42
  Speaker 3: to block that guy if you can get an established
• 1:45
  Speaker 3: major league player. Every team is just so afraid to
• 1:49
  Speaker 3: block a guy that they don't even know. Christian Campbell,
• 1:52
  Speaker 3: I use Christian Campbell.
• 1:53
  Speaker 4: He was not blocked.
• 1:54
  Speaker 3: They signed him to an extension, and we spent most of
• 1:57
  Speaker 3: the year in TRIPAA and now this year, guess out
• 2:00
  Speaker 3: there trying to see if he can even make the
• 2:02
  Speaker 3: roster even though he's guaranteed. So why are we so
• 2:05
  Speaker 3: scared to trade away our prospects for guaranteed big leagues?
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: Well, I don't know about necessarily trading them or are
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: you talking more about just creating opportunity for them.
• 2:15
  Speaker 4: That's oh, it's just both. It's kind of a bow thing, right, AJ.
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: You're right that an established player is more likely to
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: help you win than a non established player. But the
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: way teams view this, and I'm not telling you guys anything,
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: you don't know the prospects. The young players are affordable,
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: they're under control for longer than an established guy you
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: might sign for two years, and therefore they provide more
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: bang for the buck. The flaw in that theory is
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: when it doesn't work. Just as you just mentioned with
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: Christian Campbell, they give him a big contract right afore
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: he starts the season, and yet he wasn't ready for
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: the majors. He kind of demonstrated that he wasn't ready
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: for the majors. And who knows, they could have maybe
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: committed that money to a player of a veteran status
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: and waiting to see if Christian Campbell actually can be
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: a viable Major leaguer. They obviously got the price they
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: wanted in the extension they signed him, and then it
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: didn't work out. Now, for every Christian Campbell, there's also
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: a Roman Anthony, a top prospect who does work out,
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: and the Mariners have a number of these guys Cole Young,
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: Colt Emerson, others that are coming, and they have some
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: of the more highly regarded young players in the game today.
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: That's why they don't want to block them. I understand
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: that logic, but they still need one more player at
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: the very least.
• 3:35
  Speaker 5: The Red Sox are clearly in a win now, you know,
• 3:38
  Speaker 5: don't hoard the prospect's mode, but it's a little bit
• 3:41
  Speaker 5: different for the Red Sox. You feel like and a
• 3:43
  Speaker 5: lot of people feel like they need to fill a
• 3:45
  Speaker 5: spot in the infield, whether it is Christian Campbell or not.
• 3:48
  Speaker 5: We doubt it that are teams looking at the Red
• 3:52
  Speaker 5: Sox pitching, which they have added to this offseason and
• 3:56
  Speaker 5: then maybe could diminish from to be able to to
• 4:00
  Speaker 5: make sure they fill that role that Bregman left.
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: They definitely want to add an infielder, and probably a
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: right handed hitting infielder. The preference seems to be second
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: base because they want Marcella Meyer at third.
• 4:13
  Speaker 4: Now.
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: I've heard in recent days that they are willing to
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: trade one of their lesser pitchers, and by lesser picture
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: not a guy who's a top prospect and not a
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: guy who is Garat Crochet or Sonny Gray or Johanno
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: Viedo that crowd. Obviously, range of Suarez fits with that
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: as well, So who we talked about. Brian Beyo is one,
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: Jordan Hicks is another. Maybe Patrick Sandoval coming off Tommy
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: John surgery would be another in that kind of category.
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: They don't want to trade Peyton totally. They don't want
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: to trade Connolly early. I understand that. And if they
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: can get the piece they need for one of the
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: lesser pictures, or maybe just rearrange it in some fashion,
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: make a couple of deals to get that player that infielder,
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: more power to them. They need to do that. In
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: my opinion, it's kind of like Seattle. They're missing one piece,
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: and it's an important piece because offensively they are a
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: little bit challenged right now, at least from an outside perspective.
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: Now maybe they feel, well, we've got run prevention figured
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: out better with the pitching staff we've assembled. They certainly
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: have very deep rotation at this point, perhaps even too deep.
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: But you got to score runs too, and that's the
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: area they still need to address.
• 5:28
  Speaker 6: Coming out of Minnesota.
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: That the Minnesota twins and Derek Falvee, the president of
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: Baseball Operations as well as business Operations, have mutually agreed
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: to part ways. The timing seems interesting, but I'd like
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: your take on it.
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: The timing sure was interesting a lot, and I know
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: you just had Dan Hayes on and he of course
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: covers that team so well for the athletic Derek falve
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: from what I gathered, was frustrated. Frustrated because at the
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: deadline he was asked by ownership to go even further
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: than he might have gone if just left to his
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: own devices. And as Dan mentioned in the previous segment,
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: I believe were a couple of segments ago, they tore
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: apart their bullpen, the entire bullpen, even some guys who
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: were under long term control who were cheap like the
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: players we were just talking about with AJ, and it
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: left them in a competitively compromised position. So now they
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: have effectively a new ownership structure. Tom Pohlad is now
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: in charge. He wasn't the guy before. It was Jim Pohlad.
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: Then it brought in some minority investors. Things are changing
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: there in terms of what ownership sees and what ownership
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: looks like so Flauvey, it seemed to me just was
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: wary and maybe frustrated and maybe just uncertain about the
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: direction of this team. He is the one who fought
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: to keep this team together over the winter and not
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: trade Joe Ryan, not trade Byron Buxton. Obviously ownership agreed
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: with that, and that's the way they're going forward. But
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: I don't know how he sees the future, and maybe
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: he doesn't see the future quite the same way that
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: ownership does. That would be my strong guess here when
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: you have a mutual parting. What else could it be?
• 7:13
  Speaker 5: Chris Bassett, can you tell us about what his market
• 7:16
  Speaker 5: is starting to shape up like? Because this is a
• 7:18
  Speaker 5: guy that had a bounce back season, and we've seen
• 7:21
  Speaker 5: other guys who have bad seasons right before free agency
• 7:25
  Speaker 5: not get jobs. But now Chris Bassett and he was
• 7:28
  Speaker 5: very He did really well in the playoffs too. Why
• 7:31
  Speaker 5: is it not Materializa? What are you hearing so far?
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: Well, the market for starting pitching right now is quite interesting.
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: There are a number of teams still that need to
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: add a starter, and you can see the pitchers right
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: now who are still available, and then beyond from ber
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: Valdez and Zach Gallen. You see that list, Lucas Gilio,
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: Chris Bassett, Zach Lttel, they're all on the rung below.
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: So it seems to me they perhaps and I say perhaps,
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: need from Valdez and Zach Gallan to find their spots
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: and at that point we would see better definition in
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: the markets for the next tier down. And those are
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: the pictures I just mentioned. It's Giolito, it's Bassett, it's
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: Zach Lttel, Nick Martinez, a couple of others as well.
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: So that seems to be what's going on. And you
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: might ask, well, what are.
• 8:21
  Speaker 4: We doing here?
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: It's January thirty, it's spring training camps open in two
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: weeks even less in some cases, why are these pictures
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: now signed? It seems to me it's pretty obvious the
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: teams are squeezing and squeezing and squeezing, hoping for these
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: guys to lower their prices, particularly the top two Valdez
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: and Gallon, and then they'll have still a high supply
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: and still a high demand, but maybe they can get
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: prices closer to what they want.
• 8:54
  Speaker 6: All right.
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: I love doing this because we have two catchers on
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: the show. Of course, Aj and Eric both know a
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: little bit about pitch framing, if you will. Things have changed,
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: of course since they were behind the dish, but by
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: stack cast numbers. Let's talk about the best and worst teams,
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: you guys, and the three main catching metrics. That's obviously blocking, throwing,
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: and framing.
• 9:14
  Speaker 6: What do you think about this?
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: Blocking twelve runs, throwing nineteen runs, framing forty five runs.
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: In terms of what they're talking about, Mike Petriello is
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: saying this now he thinks that kind of is underselling.
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: It also shows you that the spread has declined as
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: teams all value framing. In twenty eighteen, the spread between
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: best to worst with sixty four runs twenty twelve.
• 9:33
  Speaker 6: That's pre stat cast era.
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: It was seventy six runs in two thousand and eight,
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: so twenty something years ago it was ninety nine runs.
• 9:41
  Speaker 6: What do you make of these numbers? Eric, we'll start
• 9:44
  Speaker 6: with you.
• 9:45
  Speaker 5: Well, I know for a fact, you can look at
• 9:47
  Speaker 5: my batting average in my career. This is what kept
• 9:50
  Speaker 5: me around. I didn't know I was a good framer.
• 9:53
  Speaker 5: I thought I was good, but I didn't know there
• 9:56
  Speaker 5: was a metric for it. I didn't know it was
• 9:59
  Speaker 5: a thing. So finished twenty thirteen got traded to the
• 10:02
  Speaker 5: Blue Jays, and that was the first time I saw anything,
• 10:06
  Speaker 5: first time I saw any kind of numbers. And fast
• 10:09
  Speaker 5: forward to twenty twenty kept you know, they kept oh wow,
• 10:13
  Speaker 5: your numbers are so amazing. The Yankees were like, oh,
• 10:16
  Speaker 5: we were back on your numbers back in like twenty twelve.
• 10:21
  Speaker 5: There was a presentation done for the Yankees one of
• 10:25
  Speaker 5: the years, and I don't know which one it was,
• 10:27
  Speaker 5: that the year that Mike Trout won the MVP, the
• 10:32
  Speaker 5: Mike Trout Prime Mike Trout MVP, and the argument was
• 10:37
  Speaker 5: framing is so important that Hank Conger, the same Hank
• 10:42
  Speaker 5: Conger that everybody remembers, was more valuable based on a
• 10:47
  Speaker 5: per run, per pitch basis than Mike Trout.
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: That's asinine. I love I love Conger, but that is asenine.
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: There's no way that Hank Conger, by the way, the
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: Twins also got rid of when they got rid of
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: Rockaball Delly. Uh, there's no way that Hank Conger has
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: more value. I love the dude, I went to his wedding,
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: but there's no way that Hank Conger has more value
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: in this game than Mike Trout.
• 11:12
  Speaker 6: AJ.
• 11:12
  Speaker 3: What say you you see you see my face right now, right.
• 11:20
  Speaker 6: So sometimes the metrics are be.
• 11:24
  Speaker 4: No.
• 11:24
  Speaker 3: I also want to say this, Look, let's look at
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: the teams that are at the top. Okay, Giants, Patrick
• 11:28
  Speaker 3: Bailey is elite. The Blue Jays have strike throwers. The
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: Yankees have veteran pitchers, right, The Tigers have mostly strike throwers.
• 11:34
  Speaker 3: The Guardians have really good pitching and strike throwers. Okay,
• 11:38
  Speaker 3: guess what, they're going to get more strikes called. Now
• 11:40
  Speaker 3: that's not knock on the catchers because Dingler won the
• 11:42
  Speaker 3: Gold Glove. Austin Wells, Alejandro Kirk, Patrick Bailey is really good.
• 11:46
  Speaker 4: Bow Naylor's gotten so much better.
• 11:48
  Speaker 3: Now if you go to those teams at the bottom, Nationals,
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: White Sox, raise Angels, guess what, they didn't have a
• 11:54
  Speaker 3: whole lot of veteran, great strike throwing pitchers. Okay, so
• 12:02
  Speaker 3: in the White Sox had two rookie catchers catch this year,
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: so the umpires aren't giving them the benefit of the doubt.
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: The Nationals keibert Ruiz isn't known for his catching, and
• 12:10
  Speaker 3: then they had to other young guys. Right, So I
• 12:14
  Speaker 3: just take this all with the grain of salt, because
• 12:15
  Speaker 3: the way I look at is Jonathan Lucroi one year
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: was the number one framing catcher in baseball. He didn't
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: change a thing. The next year he was the worst.
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: So how does it go from one to the other.
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: To me, it all goes on who your pitchers are,
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: who you line up with umpires. Because let's say you
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: get one umpire that calls.
• 12:32
  Speaker 4: More you get.
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: Listen, I love Doug getting his death. He has a
• 12:34
  Speaker 3: bigger strike zone than some other guys do. Okay, so
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: you're gonna get more strikes called.
• 12:40
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 12:40
  Speaker 4: It's just it's so subjective. Who's doing the rating on this, right?
• 12:44
  Speaker 4: Who's doing this? To me?
• 12:47
  Speaker 3: This is one of those things that is cool, and
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: I'm sure it's gotten better over the year since it
• 12:51
  Speaker 3: first started. I just don't know until someone can tell
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: me how it's quantified. I look at it and say great,
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: because for like Krats and some other people had got him,
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: made him some money, and it got him in great
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: position to have a great career. But then I look
• 13:05
  Speaker 3: at it and I go, Okay, well, if my guy
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: is getting one two more strikes a game, but they're
• 13:13
  Speaker 3: also missing more balls in the dirt and having more
• 13:16
  Speaker 3: pass balls because they're trying to frame them.
• 13:18
  Speaker 4: Is it really worth it? I don't know.
• 13:21
  Speaker 5: And there's hey, kudos to these teams, and there's arguments
• 13:24
  Speaker 5: on both sides. The biggest thing if we put that,
• 13:27
  Speaker 5: if we put the last if we put the last
• 13:30
  Speaker 5: picture up there was the lowest teams. You saw the
• 13:33
  Speaker 5: Dodgers and Phillies up there.
• 13:34
  Speaker 6: That's what I was just gonna say.
• 13:37
  Speaker 5: Nobody would say. Nobody would say Will Smith and J. T.
• 13:40
  Speaker 5: Ro Muto, who, by the way, JT. Real Muto had
• 13:43
  Speaker 5: been a top ten receiver, or nobody would say they're
• 13:47
  Speaker 5: bad receivers. Did the Dodgers get downgray when they got
• 13:50
  Speaker 5: rid of Austin Barnes. Austin Barnes was one of the
• 13:52
  Speaker 5: best receivers. Just visually. You watch it and you're like
• 13:56
  Speaker 5: that dude catches the snot out of the ball. He
• 13:58
  Speaker 5: beats the ball to the spot. I don't care if
• 14:00
  Speaker 5: you on one knee, two knees. Austin Barnes would catch
• 14:03
  Speaker 5: from two feet and the way he moved his hands,
• 14:06
  Speaker 5: you can tell he is a good receiver. What is
• 14:10
  Speaker 5: the predominant pitch that a lot of the guys on
• 14:12
  Speaker 5: the Dodgers and Phillies who are both playoff teams, two
• 14:15
  Speaker 5: of the best teams in the National League, if not
• 14:17
  Speaker 5: the two best. What pitch did a lot of those
• 14:21
  Speaker 5: guys start throwing? We just talked about Roki yesterday, the split.
• 14:25
  Speaker 5: I promise you, you try to frame a split, you're
• 14:29
  Speaker 5: going to be chasing it to the backstop. You catch
• 14:31
  Speaker 5: a splitter because it's a swing and mispitch, and you're
• 14:34
  Speaker 5: gonna lose pitches. You're gonna lose balls that are at
• 14:38
  Speaker 5: the bottom of the zone, side of the strike zone
• 14:40
  Speaker 5: because they are nasty, elite pitches that are tough to
• 14:45
  Speaker 5: pick up. So there's different things that go into this,
• 14:48
  Speaker 5: and there is value in framing. But Kahi Gashioka said
• 14:51
  Speaker 5: it yesterday. If the eye test does not match the numbers,
• 14:57
  Speaker 5: it's not sustainable. But also if you're selling out to
• 15:02
  Speaker 5: one style of catching. One idea that every pitch that's
• 15:08
  Speaker 5: framed is worth point one two runs, and every pass
• 15:13
  Speaker 5: ball is only worth point two two runs. But a
• 15:19
  Speaker 5: pass ball with a runnerund third is still equal to
• 15:22
  Speaker 5: a pass ball with a runner on first going to second.
• 15:24
  Speaker 5: Like then then you're only looking at it adds the
• 15:28
  Speaker 5: numbers and people will argue it till they're blue in
• 15:30
  Speaker 5: the face. The idea is correct, the execution of it
• 15:36
  Speaker 5: is too broad stroke and everybody needs to do this,
• 15:40
  Speaker 5: and I think that is doing a disservice to some catchers,
• 15:44
  Speaker 5: but it's also doing a disservice to the value of
• 15:47
  Speaker 5: players and certain plays in the game of baseball. I,
• 15:52
  Speaker 5: for one, hope Austin Barnes gets on with the New
• 15:54
  Speaker 5: York Mets.
• 15:54
  Speaker 6: He is a good receiver, he's a good dude.
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: He's caught a lot of very important innings, particularly in
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: the post season.
• 16:01
  Speaker 6: AJ what does this do if.
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: They implement robo umps? How does this whole framing conversation change.
• 16:11
  Speaker 3: I don't think it's frames because you're not going to
• 16:12
  Speaker 3: get somebody going like this every pitch right and most
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: of the time, if anything, it would fool your pitcher sometimes,
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: and the umpires are still going to call the strikes
• 16:20
  Speaker 3: that they see and if it's close. I don't know
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: that it changes that much. Here's the one thing I'll say.
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: I talked to umpires and I've told this on this
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: on this show that have been in the ABS system
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: in Triple A, and they said that the really good
• 16:36
  Speaker 3: catchers actually box balls that are strikes to make the
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: hitter think it's a ball, they tap, they lose their challenge.
• 16:44
  Speaker 4: How much will it change. I don't know. We're gonna
• 16:46
  Speaker 4: have to see.
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: That's gonna be one of the fascinating things about twenty
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: twenty six, starting in spring training into the early season,
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: how teams use the ABS and how it affects this,
• 16:56
  Speaker 3: you know, pitch framing metric that is so popular right now.
• 16:59
  Speaker 4: I love.
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: I think it's great. I think catchers have always been undervalue.
• 17:03
  Speaker 3: I think that this is a thing that was always
• 17:05
  Speaker 3: looked upon. I remember when I first came up there,
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: like just be quiet, don't move the ball. Umpires will
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: tell you, hey, you snatched that back. That's automatically a ball.
• 17:13
  Speaker 3: And now guys are going like catching balls that are
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: a pitch out and they're like, oh, you know, well
• 17:17
  Speaker 3: it's a strike. You know, every pitch they do it.
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: So things have changed on for the change. It's just
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: going to be fascinating to see how it moves on
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: to abs.
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: Eric, how do you think it's changed in terms of
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: framing or the style or the thought process of it.
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: Because of the way that it seems like guys are
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: trying to catch differently now you know, the one leg
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: out type of thing. It doesn't matter if there's a
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: you know, run around third balls on the dirt, you're screwed.
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: This whole thing that started kind of with the Twins
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: the Yankees a little bit about just setting up behind
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: the plate differently and different style of catching.
• 17:50
  Speaker 6: Has that changed the framing at all?
• 17:54
  Speaker 4: God?
• 17:54
  Speaker 5: I mean, that is all about the framing. And now
• 17:56
  Speaker 5: they'll argue because they have a lot of numbers that
• 17:59
  Speaker 5: they're able to block more pitches, and the true argument
• 18:03
  Speaker 5: is they're able to block the ninety nine mile hour
• 18:07
  Speaker 5: yard dart that's in front of them, that's in front
• 18:11
  Speaker 5: of home plate, that's directly in front of them, And
• 18:14
  Speaker 5: because they're already down there and they just put their
• 18:16
  Speaker 5: glove down and they're able to block it, you're not moving.
• 18:19
  Speaker 5: You're not moving as well side to side. But so
• 18:23
  Speaker 5: you can't necessarily you bring one argument up and somebody
• 18:27
  Speaker 5: will argue the other part. That value is there, but
• 18:32
  Speaker 5: it's not. It's not as linear as what analytics says
• 18:36
  Speaker 5: it is. And not everybody should be on a knee
• 18:39
  Speaker 5: because the idea is forty eight percent of the pitches
• 18:43
  Speaker 5: are in I'm sorry, fifty two percent of the pitches
• 18:46
  Speaker 5: are in the bottom half of the strike zone. Well,
• 18:49
  Speaker 5: my argument was, and one of the areas that I
• 18:51
  Speaker 5: was the best at for me was the top half
• 18:55
  Speaker 5: of the strike zone. I'm like, well, that's forty eight
• 18:57
  Speaker 5: percent of the pitches, Like it's fifty fifth And if
• 19:01
  Speaker 5: you have a lot of guys that throw high balls
• 19:04
  Speaker 5: at the top of the strike zone, shouldn't you be
• 19:07
  Speaker 5: getting those two? So it's it's really how you manipulate
• 19:11
  Speaker 5: the numbers, But ultimately, at the end of the day,
• 19:14
  Speaker 5: you just got to get the job done.
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: I think it also depends too on who's evaluating what
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: the statistical metrics are that they're evaluating by. I mean,
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: can't you manipulate, as you were saying, the numbers, aj
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: can't you manipulate it to service any sort of stat
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: you're trying to prove?
• 19:36
  Speaker 4: Yes?
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: Yes, yes, it's like war, right, I mean, I use
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: I always laugh at war because there's more than one war,
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: and no one can tell you how they figure out war.
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: But everyone uses it as an evaluation.
• 19:49
  Speaker 4: Tool and this and now.
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: But if you can't even agree on how to calculate it,
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: then how do you know which who's this or that,
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: which one's right? So, yes, you can manipulate anything. I
• 19:59
  Speaker 3: know this when I used to watch a guy catch,
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: and I still watch guys, you're like, oh, he's pretty good.
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: He can steal pitches. Like I watched Patrick Bailey. I'm
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: like that dude can steal some pitches, right, and you
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: know who's good and who's not good, and the numbers
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: usually bear that out. I don't know that we need this,
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: but it's another tool to help people evaluate catchers and
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: put a value on them.
• 20:20
  Speaker 6: All right, Eric, let me ask you this.
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: How does this affect guys getting jobs? How does this
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: affect guys coming up? You know, when AJ said stealing pitches,
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: I swear to god, I thought he said stealing bitches.
• 20:30
  Speaker 6: But that's neither here nor there.
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: How does this affect guys coming up trying to get
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: jobs and maybe coming up in the minor leagues trying
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: to manipulate their style of their game to service what
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: it is that's going to get him to the big
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: league level.
• 20:44
  Speaker 5: Yeah, that well, stealing bitches. That's AJ's rap album that's
• 20:49
  Speaker 5: coming out soon's it's a single. It's going to be
• 20:51
  Speaker 5: on just on cassette, but it is it's so effect
• 20:57
  Speaker 5: you see it in college. You see it in college,
• 21:00
  Speaker 5: and there is a value to it. There's always been
• 21:02
  Speaker 5: a value to it. It is not something that needs
• 21:05
  Speaker 5: to be it's not something that needs to be diminished
• 21:08
  Speaker 5: in the sense of, oh, don't even worry about it.
• 21:11
  Speaker 5: It's something that you always needed to improve. Ernie Went
• 21:13
  Speaker 5: was my catching coach. He was always teaching us. You
• 21:17
  Speaker 5: have to beat the ball to the spot. You have
• 21:19
  Speaker 5: to You can't be late. You can't be like Aj
• 21:24
  Speaker 5: had over two thousand career hits and career hits, okay,
• 21:29
  Speaker 5: I had like two to one hundred hits in my career.
• 21:33
  Speaker 5: The value will always be in the offense. But what
• 21:36
  Speaker 5: kind of value do you get for your pitcher in
• 21:40
  Speaker 5: the framing metric? And how do you equate that when
• 21:44
  Speaker 5: you have a guy in the minor leagues that's doing it.
• 21:45
  Speaker 5: That's that's really what's that's what's holding up Ethan Solace
• 21:49
  Speaker 5: right now. Ethan Solace ever since he was sixteen the
• 21:53
  Speaker 5: videos started coming out of him. You know, the way
• 21:55
  Speaker 5: he's able to receive the ball, it's smooth, it's unbelievable.
• 21:59
  Speaker 5: If he doesn't hit over one ninety and stay healthy
• 22:03
  Speaker 5: he's never gonna make the big leagues. So as much
• 22:06
  Speaker 5: as guys work on framing and they do it off
• 22:09
  Speaker 5: machines instead of off of live pitchers, which is not
• 22:14
  Speaker 5: completely applicable. Like there's just there's more ways to get
• 22:19
  Speaker 5: to where they need to go than everybody going to
• 22:23
  Speaker 5: knee the Twins on one knee to catch at all times.
• 22:34
  Speaker 5: I think that takes away some of the athleticism. I
• 22:37
  Speaker 5: think a guy like j t Romuto wasn't in that category.
• 22:41
  Speaker 5: He wasn't with the Twins, but he's has been and
• 22:44
  Speaker 5: probably may still be the most athletic catcher in the game.
• 22:48
  Speaker 5: He could have played short in his prime. He could
• 22:50
  Speaker 5: have played short in the big leagues for a weekend.
• 22:52
  Speaker 5: And when you put him on a knee, you're putting
• 22:55
  Speaker 5: him and my chewed up piece of bubblegum body in
• 22:59
  Speaker 5: the same spot. If you're going down to one knee
• 23:03
  Speaker 5: all the time when you're receiving, like, it's not one
• 23:06
  Speaker 5: size fits all. You have to get the strikes, but
• 23:09
  Speaker 5: not everybody needs to get them the same way.
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: What do you think about manager calls in terms of
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: pitch calling from the dugout.
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: No, No, because here's my thing, I have with this,
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: and you watch it in college, in high school and
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: all this, you're not back there. And unless you're back
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: there and you can actually see what is happening, what
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: your pitcher has, what movement, hitters make adjustments.
• 23:37
  Speaker 4: No, that's a no. But Marlins are gonna do it.
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: Marlins are gonna try and if it works, you know
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: the Marlins, then other teams will try to.
• 23:44
  Speaker 4: But for me, that's a no. But that's just my
• 23:46
  Speaker 4: opinion because as.
• 23:49
  Speaker 3: A former catcher, I took pride and call on a
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: game and getting guys through and not to look over
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: to the dugout and say, hey, you know you're not
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: back here.
• 23:55
  Speaker 4: You don't know what the guy has that day. No,
• 23:59
  Speaker 4: it's just a no. But teams are going to do
• 24:01
  Speaker 4: it and nothing we can do about it.
• 24:03
  Speaker 5: I think it'll I think it'll cap. I think it'll
• 24:06
  Speaker 5: cap teams. I think there's some success to it. But
• 24:09
  Speaker 5: I think when you're talking about teams that are playoff,
• 24:13
  Speaker 5: fringe playoff teams, and we talk about the Marlins because
• 24:15
  Speaker 5: they're doing it right now, but I'm sure other organizations
• 24:17
  Speaker 5: want to do it. I heard the year when the
• 24:19
  Speaker 5: Red Sox won in twenty eighteen, the front office said
• 24:23
  Speaker 5: they had I think they had the best RA in baseball.
• 24:26
  Speaker 5: And the front office said, if you guys had listened
• 24:28
  Speaker 5: to us and really followed the pitch calling plan, you
• 24:32
  Speaker 5: would have had a half a run less RA. And
• 24:36
  Speaker 5: it's like, Okay, on paper, you can say that. On paper,
• 24:39
  Speaker 5: you can say this is what the pitch that needs
• 24:40
  Speaker 5: to be called. But when I'm watching today, my guy
• 24:44
  Speaker 5: don't have his cutter, my guy doesn't have his curveball.
• 24:47
  Speaker 5: He can't land it for a strike. But if you
• 24:49
  Speaker 5: go down the paper and you go curveball, you're you're
• 24:54
  Speaker 5: going to be cooked in that game. And I think
• 24:57
  Speaker 5: those are the games on the fringes. There's so many
• 24:59
  Speaker 5: things on the fringes right now in the big leagues,
• 25:02
  Speaker 5: from clubhouse personnel, to environment in your clubhouse, to travel
• 25:09
  Speaker 5: to sleep, small tiny little things that could help you
• 25:13
  Speaker 5: win one extra game. That's where I feel like the
• 25:15
  Speaker 5: pitch calling from the dugout gets in the way. At
• 25:19
  Speaker 5: my high school team, I would much rather have a
• 25:21
  Speaker 5: freshman call the games and we talk about it, learn
• 25:25
  Speaker 5: about it, see what's happening in the game, and when
• 25:30
  Speaker 5: it comes to a big moment, they already seen it.
• 25:32
  Speaker 5: They've seen it in action. I'm super close to the
• 25:36
  Speaker 5: home plate when I'm coaching high school, and I don't
• 25:39
  Speaker 5: see the same thing. I don't see the ball spinning.
• 25:41
  Speaker 5: I don't see I can read swings, but you're just
• 25:44
  Speaker 5: not doing that when you're looking at a paper the
• 25:46
  Speaker 5: whole time and saying, splitter, that's what we need to throw.